Join us in conversation with Douglas Murray, author of The Strange Death of Europe, The Madness of Crowds, Gender, Race and Identity, and his most recent book The Madness Of Crowds: How To Survive A Global Pandemic.
00:00:00.000Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Candice Malcolm Show. Today, we are in conversation with a special guest, very excited to be joined by Douglas Murray. Douglas is an international bestselling author, author of the book, The Strange Death of Europe, which came out in 2017. Excellent book, which I recommend. And his most recent book, The Madness of Crowds, Gender, Race and Identity. Douglas Murray joins me on the line. Welcome, Douglas, and thank you so much for joining us today.
00:00:30.400It's a great pleasure to be with you, Candice. Thank you.
00:00:33.440Yeah, so I first, you know, I always look to you, Douglas, for your reaction on sort of global events. You always just have such a succinct and you sort of cut through everything in your analysis, whether it was on sort of the news about Prince William, sorry, Prince Harry and Meghan Markle leaving the royal family, or about Jordan Peterson, about any number of events going on in the world. You always have such a great way of looking at things.
00:00:57.600So, you know, the world is sort of in chaos right now, as the World Health Organization announced the fact that the coronavirus, Wuhan coronavirus, is now a pandemic. So, just quickly, what are your thoughts on what's happening all over the world and the reaction?
00:01:11.720Well, like everyone, I'm deeply concerned and trying to, you know, learn as much as I can from reasonable and responsible sources and trying to work out that balance between a lack of caution and over caution.
00:01:28.180You know, and I think it's at times like this one has to be especially judicious and careful with any and all pronouncements. I'm shocked but not surprised at the number of people who've chosen to use this as an opportunity to grandstand as experts in pandemics as well as experts in everything else.
00:01:56.280But I'm not an expert in pandemics, and so I simply want to hear from those who are.
00:02:01.840Right. And there's sort of, you know, the two camps. One saying that, you know, this is just like everything else, you know, obvious overreaction, similar to the way they drum up fear about, you know, climate change and alarmism around that.
00:02:14.860And, and again, yeah, I use it as an example to criticize us and lecture us about xenophobia and how closing borders will react.
00:02:23.160But then, you know, there's the other camp of people who are looking at the exponential growth in terms of the infection rate and saying this is really scary.
00:02:30.580I think the latest figures estimate that somewhere between 30 and 70 percent of people in Canada anyway could get it.
00:02:36.340So where do you fall in those two camps?
00:02:39.840Well, you see, I think the idea that there are two camps on this is part of the problem.
00:02:43.900I mean, what this has exposed once again is the fact that in societies like Canada and America and Britain, we are lacking a uniting narrative.
00:02:56.800There is an almost 50-50 split in some countries, almost exactly 50-50 split down the general public.
00:03:05.580And we see everything in our day through hyper-politicized lenses.
00:03:12.340I mean, in America, obviously, there's the Trump, anti-Trump lens.
00:03:16.600In the UK, there has been until recently, but there are still remnants of it, the pro or anti-Brexit lens.
00:03:21.800And when people become totally fixated on such a narrative, they need to fit everything available into that narrative.
00:03:30.300And one of the things I just strongly urge people to do is to avoid that, you know, apart from anything else, because it makes us stupider, vastly, vastly stupider than we need to be.
00:03:43.360You know, coronavirus doesn't need to fit into the lens of, is one anti or pro-Justin Trudeau or anti or pro-Donald Trump or anti or pro-Boris Johnson?
00:03:56.860You know, and I just sort of think, for the love of God, can people not see this through the hyper-politicized, simplistic lens through which, in recent years, we have been tempted to see absolutely everything?
00:04:10.320You know, I can see the Trump supporters saying, you know, it's just it's just a flu because they worry that with the economy going through a massive stress test, that this is going to impact on their guy.
00:04:23.940And I can see the anti-Trump people positively willing this to be more apocalyptic than it need to be in order that they can get Trump out of office later this year.
00:04:34.960And I just I just look at this and think, wow, wow.
00:04:40.160What does somebody have to become to do that with something that is a non-political human catastrophe?
00:04:50.780Yeah. And for just sort of the casual observer, it's really difficult to cut through the politics.
00:04:57.260I think politicians naturally have an incentive to downplay any kind of major world crisis like this because of, like you said, the impact on the economy.
00:05:07.120We've seen the stock market just absolutely tank.
00:05:10.000And so politicians sort of have this mantra like keep calm, carry on.
00:05:16.780But yet, you know, perhaps the more sage advice at this point is that we should make radical changes to our lives.
00:05:24.780My family and I have decided to self-quarantine.
00:05:27.340I'm filming this interview in one of the spare bedrooms in my house because we've decided to just stay at home for a while because it looks like there might be an outbreak in Toronto.
00:05:35.740So do you think that there is a little bit of a lack of incentives for politicians to do the right thing in a situation like this?
00:05:44.160No, I don't think there's a lack of incentive to do the right thing.
00:05:47.440I think that these are unusual situations like this are extraordinary tests for politicians.
00:05:55.660But, I mean, I would like to think that as a society we were able to see people acting as well as they can in positions of power given the information they have.
00:06:07.860And let's not forget this has all been evolving very swiftly.
00:06:11.080I mean, it was only a few weeks ago that the mayor of Milan was saying, you know, this isn't going to change Milan.
00:06:19.840Go out, keep shopping, you know, and a few weeks later his entire city is in lockdown.
00:06:24.820And I don't think that's because the mayor of Milan isn't a particularly terrible or horrible person.
00:06:34.260I simply think it's that he was adapting to the information he had and the severity of the challenge.
00:06:42.260And I wish we had any remaining unity in our countries to view other political leaders in that light.
00:06:51.520I'm just very sorry, as I say, that in all of our societies we have this opportunity cost from viewing everything through this dull, monochrome, monotone debate about whether you're pro or anti one particular individual.
00:07:12.480I mean, of course there are opportunities in crises like this for people to try to gain political capital.
00:07:22.460But there's also a there's also a flip side to that, isn't there, which is public disdain for politicians seen correctly to be doing that or attempting to do that.
00:07:32.980I mean, my own country in the United Kingdom, the head of the Scottish National Party attended the Cobra meeting on on how to deal with she's the first minister in Scotland and a separatist and nationalist.
00:07:46.400And she decided, having come out of that meeting, to announce the findings of the meeting first in order to look like a serious, big, national, international stage politician.
00:07:58.180And I hope that lots of people saw that like I did and just thought, what a thing to do, you know?
00:08:07.580Yeah. And it also seems, you know, that it has caught several world leaders flat footed.
00:08:12.980I know you said earlier that there is sort of an instinct to be in like the pro Justin Trudeau camp or the anti camp, just like Trump, just like Brexit.
00:08:21.240But I think in Canada, there are definitely valid, valid criticisms of Justin Trudeau that I wanted to chat with you a little bit about because I think they touch on some of the themes that you've written about in your book.
00:08:33.280So Justin Trudeau is sort of known as the, you know, the world's biggest and best virtue signaler.
00:08:38.340He's sort of embodying the sort of, you know, progressive, liberal kind of idea.
00:08:45.800He's a proud feminist. And, you know, his favorite thing to say is that diversity is our strength.
00:08:51.780And yet, you know, right in the middle of the election campaign, we found pictures of him painted in blackface.
00:09:01.000Yeah. Kind of like, you know, one of the worst racist tropes out there.
00:09:06.180And, you know, even when the pictures were taken, it still wasn't OK back then.
00:09:11.340You know, we're talking about the late 90s, early 2000s.
00:09:15.440You know, a son of privilege, he was born while his father was prime minister.
00:09:18.980You think that he would be aware of the sort of inappropriateness of that attire.
00:09:25.080And yet he sort of offered a humble apology and Canadians just sort of shrugged their shoulders and he was reelected to office.
00:09:34.280You know, so why is it that hypocrites like Justin Trudeau seem to get away with this kind of behavior?
00:09:39.940Well, to steel man, the argument, it is that the reason that Justin Trudeau got away with blackface would be because he is not perceived to have done other things, which could mean he could be plausibly described as a racist or, you know, a sort of segregationist, should we say.
00:10:05.660Whereas, and again, I'm steel manning the argument, whereas, I don't know, if Donald Trump had been found to have in the last 20 years done a lot of blackface, indeed, as much as Justin Trudeau did, which appears to have included evenings on his own without even going to a fancy dress party.
00:10:23.340I mean, he seemed to have done it so much, he'd sort of lost count of the number of times.
00:10:27.820If Donald Trump had done that, people would say, aha, this is not a single thing.
00:10:33.420This is part of a continuum of a president who is a racist and who has done this racist thing and is totally in character.
00:10:43.520Now, that's the steel manning argument.
00:10:45.140And I think that what is happening on these cases is that figures who have, broadly speaking, taken the most accommodating, open borders, shall we say, view of this.
00:11:11.200People for whom race relations and integration and immigration are basically a case of kumbaya.
00:11:20.680Those people are given the points that allow them to screw up somewhere in the process.
00:11:29.900So they might misspeak, to use the famous Clintonism.
00:11:33.740You know, they might have done something dodgy-ish, you know, once, like Justin Trudeau.
00:11:38.920But it's not seen as seen as being human to fail, whereas there are these other people set up as great bogeymen of the right, obviously, in particular, who are seen to be already mean-spirited and mean-hearted.
00:11:57.460And therefore, you can't give them an inch.
00:12:01.600And you have to interpret everything in the most malevolent light.
00:12:05.560So it is definitely, the Trudeau thing is definitely part of that pattern.
00:12:12.380And I think that's because that's the direction of the age at the moment or up to the present moment, shall we say, because everything could change.
00:12:19.960But up to the present moment, for instance, there has been no public virtue benefit to, for instance, being a supporter of restrictionist immigration policies.
00:12:36.060It is seen as being only a sign of negative political and personal expression.
00:12:49.400It's something that I dealt with a bit in The Strange Death of Europe.
00:12:52.860You know, what happens when the open borders people suddenly look like they're responsible for an atrocity?
00:13:00.220You know, at such moments, the whole calculus shifts or it can swing.
00:13:06.140And maybe, you know, maybe this is such a moment that we're going through now.
00:13:10.900I mean, only a few weeks ago, Matteo Salvini, the former Italian foreign minister and interior minister and deputy prime minister, effectively, Matteo Salvini said a few weeks ago, he's currently out of office, that the country, Italy, should shut its borders and was condemned as a racist by his political opponents.
00:13:31.680You know, but now the country has shut its borders.
00:13:48.120But the public can notice these sorts of things.
00:13:51.180Well, it's interesting that you mention that, because when the first case of corona was reported in Toronto, which I guess was now like late January, early February, a bunch of officials held press conferences condemning racism and saying that it was unfair to the Chinese community in Canada for the reactions that people were having.
00:14:10.360Without any specific examples, they just sort of jumped right to, you know, Canadians are racist in their reaction.
00:14:17.580And they were condemning some of the concepts that were being floated around, like the idea that if you return from a trip to China, you should self-quarantine.
00:14:25.560That suggestion was being categorized as racist just last month.
00:14:30.900Yeah, the same thing has happened in America and pretty much everywhere else.
00:14:34.320Right. So I just wanted to pick up on a point that you just made about how the people who had always been calling for open borders could suddenly shift and then become seen as sort of, you know, part of the problem if there was a catastrophe.
00:14:48.620That moment certainly has not happened in Canada.
00:14:51.040Canada has had an ongoing flow of illegal immigration, the largest numbers that we've ever seen in our history, sort of coincided with Donald Trump getting elected president of the United States to Justin Trudeau, sending out a message on Twitter saying Canada will welcome basically any and all refugees.
00:15:08.940And it was sort of seen as an open border declaration.
00:15:11.400We've had tens of thousands of migrants streaming across the land border from the United States to Canada.
00:15:17.420And we've really hit that situation where you're talking about that anyone who criticizes the situation, anyone who even says that it's illegal immigration, gets deemed a racist, gets deemed un-Canadian, and sort of gets every name thrown at them.
00:15:34.640Reporters, news reporters in Canada used to commonly refer to this as illegal immigration.
00:15:38.940Then the Trudeau government held a series of press conferences saying that it shouldn't be called illegal immigration.
00:15:44.880It should be called irregular immigration.
00:15:47.180And then all the news media just sort of fell in line.
00:15:49.680And it was like that from that day forth, every report called it irregular immigration.
00:15:54.700And that was sort of like illegal was a dog whistle.
00:15:57.360So that's a very, but, you know, just that's very similar to what's been happening with the Corona situation.
00:16:04.400CNN in America has, in recent days, been criticizing various Trump supporters and Trump officials for referring to the Chinese virus or to the Chinese Wuhan virus and so on.
00:16:16.300And yet there are dozens of videos you can see online of CNN reporters using exactly the same terminology up until yesterday, you know.
00:16:25.940And so what is what is really going on here?
00:16:29.420I just said there's two things in each of these cases.
00:16:33.020One is it's in the face of potentially catastrophic events or at least world changing events.
00:16:41.640It is much easier as societies like with individuals to focus on the small number of things we correctly or otherwise believe to be within our control.
00:16:52.960Because there is so much that is outside of our control.
00:16:57.460You know, we cannot do anything to stop potentially thousands of people dying in Europe, Italy, anywhere else.
00:17:06.620We can do very little to stop the stock market crashing in such a way that a lot of Canadian house owners are in serious financial trouble at some point.
00:17:23.900We can do very little to nothing about these things.
00:17:27.460So we very often, I think, as human beings console ourselves with what we cannot deal with by doubling down, being especially pernickety about those remaining things we correctly or otherwise think are in our control and within our competency at such moments.
00:17:47.980Like a cat that, you know, sort of grooms themselves at a moment of disaster, you know, because it can't do anything with the wider situation it finds itself in.
00:18:02.080And I think that that is the first the first thing that is going on.
00:18:07.260The second is we have and I've written about this a lot, as you know, we all always have in every age sacred values.
00:18:15.320And in a way, the interesting thing of our age is working out what those sacred values are in Canada, in particular, those sacred values include, you know, openness, tolerance.
00:18:29.320That includes open borders, you know, unrestricted immigration, not wanting to call anyone illegal and all of that bucket of familiar tropes.
00:18:44.320And that is effectively a sacred value.
00:18:47.840The interesting thing at major shifting points is, are your sacred values strongly enough held by you that you will hold them up to and past the point at which they turn out to actually be destructive?
00:19:03.900And I would say that there is a significant stress test of that at the moment there would be, by the way, in Canada, if you had immigration like, say, Italy or Greece has had in the last decade.
00:19:21.620You see, my belief is that the Canadian situation is very interesting because, among other things, you have a lot of immigration, including a lot of illegal immigration.
00:19:30.640But you don't have Africa on your doorstep, you know, you've got America.
00:19:37.180If you had a massively growing population continent to your south, only a couple of hours boat ride away, and the Canadian public, forever talking about how grand and open they were,
00:19:54.780were actually discovering that at some stage, were actually discovering that at some stage it's about whether you take in the whole world or not.
00:20:03.160I don't think that this sacred value of modern Canada holds any more than it does in the Greek population or the Italian population.
00:20:13.320And that's when you lose these habits of recent years quite fast.
00:20:21.700Absolutely. I always say that Canada is sort of blessed by geography and just that we have these vast oceans separating us from any war zone or any trouble spot.
00:20:31.660And even the people who do stream in from the United States, they are mostly, not mostly, I would say, a lot of them are people who are sort of illegally in the United States,
00:20:41.460who fear getting deported, so they go up to Canada instead, or they've heard of a sort of a scam, like a global scam where they can fly to the United States,
00:20:50.840sort of purchase a bus ticket, go to the north, and then travel across to get sort of free health care and all that kind of stuff.
00:20:56.960But that still is quite a barrier to entry, that you don't just have the sort of most helpless people who are totally destitute showing up.
00:21:07.120So we do have that sort of buffer, which I think enables us to maintain the sort of image.
00:21:12.920Yeah, one way of thinking about it is you have the, it's a buffer, and you also can allow yourselves the luxury.
00:21:22.360You can allow yourselves the luxury of attitudes and poses that you could not allow yourself if you lived in the reality that, for instance, Mediterranean Europe lives in.
00:21:41.380Have you noticed a major change or shift in attitudes in Europe or in the United Kingdom, I know?
00:21:48.460It's really interesting, because I think it was a decade ago now that major European leaders declared that multiculturalism was a failed experiment.
00:21:57.400And yet after that was when they sort of did the big open border call, including Angela Merkel herself said that multiculturalism was a failed experiment.
00:22:06.580So, you know, it's really curious to understand why a couple of years later she would completely do an about face and open the border up.
00:22:13.720Supposedly it was for it to help boost Germany's economy and Germany's economy and bring in a bunch of workers.
00:22:19.740But you look at stagnant growth in Germany, that certainly hasn't happened.
00:22:23.980Have you noticed a major change in attitudes?
00:22:25.720You know, all of these games, well, they're not games, of course, but all of these, all of these, let's call them games for the time being, are going on simultaneously, where there is a permissible political discussion.
00:22:40.900And there is a permissible political discussion on the left and permissible political discussion on the right.
00:22:46.720And then there's the public discussion.
00:22:48.500Then there's what the public says in public versus what the public does in the privacy of the ballot box.
00:22:54.920You know, there's an awful lot going on on these really difficult, complex questions, which do undoubtedly have a moral dimension as well as a practical one.
00:23:04.220Yeah, the Merkel case you mentioned, I was very interested in.
00:23:10.340It was in Potsdam in 2010, 2011 that Merkel gave that speech.
00:23:14.580And it was five years later that she then opened the borders of Germany.
00:23:18.500And yes, they then made up excuses retrospectively for why they did that.
00:23:24.900It was simply not the case that Germany, you know, desperately wanted foreign labor and decided that the means of achieving that was not through an orderly process of applying and, you know, asking for a certain number of workers to fill certain roles.
00:23:42.540And then, you know, sifting them and going through effectively a job application process.
00:23:47.740It's that's what you would have done if you'd have been serious about that.
00:23:51.060You definitely what you wouldn't do was to say normal asylum procedures have been suspended and anyone who walks into Germany can be here.
00:24:12.700And, you know, for instance, in my own country in Britain, the concern about immigration has actually gone down a bit in recent years.
00:24:20.540And one reason for that, I believe, is that the British public think by having voted Brexit and now having left the European Union, that they have effectively they've got something.
00:24:36.520They sent out the message on immigration.
00:24:39.960And so they feel a bit more relaxed about it.
00:24:43.400And I think all political leaders should learn something from that, by the way.
00:24:47.660You know, you I'm not saying that people should do tokenistic things very far from it, but they should learn from the fact that it's when the public feel that they are not being listened to in their concerns that the politics has a possibility of going rancid.
00:25:04.140Right. And you could probably say the same thing about Americans with Trump, that a way to understand that is just so many people were frustrated with the political consensus and political elites that Donald Trump was like a big middle finger to the elites.
00:25:18.380And then, you know, they felt better about it and they could relax.
00:25:21.520Absolutely. Relax a few years and enjoy the show.
00:25:23.880Yeah. Well, we haven't had any kind of a moment like that in Canada just yet, I would argue.
00:25:38.460But the more you have cases and stories and everything of the sort of undermining of Canada's orderly immigration, it really wears on public trust in the system.
00:25:48.720And eventually there could be some kind of a tipping point.
00:25:51.640Yeah, I'm not a great fan of the tipping point idea myself because there are so many, you know, you can fool yourself into thinking, aha, this will be the great tipping point.
00:26:02.920And it passes like everything else and nothing meaningful happens.
00:26:08.080I lost count of – one of the reasons I'm skeptical about it is because I lost count of tipping points and of writing and thinking, you know, is this a tipping point?
00:26:19.840And it just wasn't, you know, like if you'd have said to me, how about if the son of a couple of people who'd fled from Libya to the UK because they'd fallen out with Gaddafi because they were members of an Islamist group too extreme for Gaddafi, basically the al-Qaeda affiliate in Libya.
00:26:39.420Yeah, imagine what would happen if their kid, I mean them being given asylum in the UK, went to a pop concert and blew up more than 20 young women.
00:27:02.020Everyone forgets about it in some way.
00:27:04.860And actually, of course, in another way, they don't.
00:27:07.440These things go to some deep underlying sense that is underneath the sort of transitory day-to-day thing of politics.
00:27:17.880Well, in that specific case, the terrorist, the would-be terrorist, the person who became a terrorist was rescued with a British ship and was able to flee, I think it was Libya, just not too long before he committed that attack.
00:27:31.940He was brought back to the UK in a rescue effort.
00:27:35.640So, yeah, I suppose just looking at the data, Canada used to have an overwhelmingly pro-immigration consensus, just public opinion.
00:27:43.820It was significantly higher than the US, the UK, or Australia.
00:27:48.460And in the last, I'd say, two decades, it's just kind of come back.
00:27:51.860And now it's pretty much in line with all the other sort of Anglos-year countries.
00:28:02.160And, I mean, I think the way to think about it is probably that the country is coming to the limits of its tolerance.
00:28:10.340And those are very interesting times to be alive in.
00:28:13.640And it also really depends, Douglas, on what part of the country you're in.
00:28:17.440And, like, if you're in Vancouver, there are parts where it's overwhelmingly majority Chinese, where people speak Chinese, signs are in Chinese language, and you hardly see, you know, an English face or a Canadian face.
00:28:31.020Whereas, you know, other parts of the country are just as they have been for a long time.
00:28:36.800And then you have places like Toronto, that is a very kind of cosmopolitan, pluralistic society, where it's kind of neat to see how the different little communities interact and coincide.
00:28:47.380And there's sort of cross-cultural friendships.
00:28:49.500Like, there's a mosque that's next to a synagogue, and they share a parking lot, and they have these nice, you know, meals together and stuff.
00:28:57.920And they're always held up as the example of how, in Canada, you know, Jews and Muslims get along.
00:29:03.960So, you have those sort of moments that make everyone kind of proud and happy of how Canada handles integration.
00:29:12.160But then, of course, you also have, you know, some of the really unfortunate situation of people who bring their sort of tribal hatreds to Canada, and they manifest in sort of targeted crimes and stuff like that.
00:29:25.780These things are, these are very interesting questions around here, because there are several things to say.
00:29:32.220The first is, you know, as I perceive it, Canadian identity is, like most identities, strongly felt but weakly defined.
00:29:45.080So that you sort of, you feel it in your gut of knowing what it is.
00:29:50.880But if pushed to define it, you come up with kind of woolly things.
00:29:56.800And the problem is, is that that holds for a time, but it finds itself under significant pressure when it comes across identities that are very, find it very easy to define what they are.
00:30:14.340You know, so like woolly, happy, multi-culti sort of societies get along just fine until they find somebody who doesn't want to join in the party, or thinks the whole game is horrible.
00:30:30.200And then they have trouble, like we have trouble in Britain, you have trouble in Canada, defining what like un-Canadian activity is, or at least you can define it if it comes from somewhat far right white supremacist type, who hates all Muslims or something.
00:30:48.000That's easy to define as anti-Canadian, but what does a non-white Canadian's anti-Canadian attitude look like?
00:30:58.080What would the federal government, what would the government be able to define as being anti-Canadian from such people?
00:31:06.600What is an anti-Canadian attitude within the Chinese communities in Canada, for instance?
00:31:16.260And then you get to the second one, which is the deep underlying thing beneath this discussion in Canada, America, Britain, and basically the Anglosphere.
00:31:26.500It's the same in Australia, and it's the same albeit in more complex version across the continent of Europe, is something like this.
00:31:35.420Do we agree, are we willing to agree to the presumption of the age,
00:31:40.260which is that basically white European peoples are the sort of totally uninteresting base paint to which you then need to add things in order to produce any color at all?
00:31:58.500I'm not talking of racial color, I'm not talking of racial color, I'm talking of the color of society as in interest, curiosity, artisticness, productivity, a whole set of other things.
00:32:15.080Do we just – do we pretend that, as it were, white European – I'm treading very carefully here because I'm conscious as ever of how detractors might try to dishonestly misrepresent what I'm saying.
00:32:28.820But do we agree to the presumption of the age that sort of white European peoples are uninteresting, uncolored in the ways I've just described people to whom you need to add this mix of the world's other identities to produce anything of any worth?
00:32:51.280Is it, as it were, the zero bit on the graph or not?
00:32:59.440And this is a subject of enormous pain and contention because we all know what we don't want the answers to be.
00:33:09.680Like, we don't want to give any truck or ammunition to the people who do exist out there, minority though they undoubtedly are, who are actually, you know, supremacists about their race and color and all that sort of thing.
00:33:29.800Do we want to give them any material or not?
00:33:39.680We do a certain amount of lying and fibbing or at least not telling the truth, which is that actually, you know, British people who went to Canada, for instance, are to some extent different
00:34:00.460and are going to have their own independent culture and norms and mores and much more than a Chinese population, for instance, which arrives or a Vietnamese population or any other.
00:34:16.320And not only that that's inevitable, but that that's fine, you know, that that's just fine.
00:34:24.440There's nothing unnatural about it and there's nothing more sinister or less sinister than everyone else.
00:34:30.980And the problem is that that's what we haven't been able to, we haven't been able to have that conversation really because of our fear of what it might become.
00:34:46.960But it seems to me not only dishonest but disheartening to an awful lot of people to have it presented in this way that, well, they're Chinese Canadians and these people are Asian Canadians and so on.
00:35:06.120And then there are just these sort of colourless, cultureless, not right to ever celebrate their culture or even identify it people.
00:35:23.560And those are the people we'd sort of like to dilute a bit.
00:35:28.620I mean, I mean, it's this is a horrible conversation to have to address, but it's there.
00:35:34.860So we might as well start to try to have it out.
00:35:37.600I totally agree. And the part of the problem is that anyone who even tries to start to initiate conversations like this, as difficult as they may be, often gets completely written off or, you know, maligned.
00:35:50.220And a couple of years ago, there was a leadership campaign for the Conservative Party and one of the candidates suggested that newcomers to Canada should be asked to pass a Canadian values test.
00:36:01.840And then that's sort of spun into this whole sort of, you know, crisis of what are Canadian values?
00:36:09.120No values are Canadian values. No values aren't Canadian.
00:36:12.180And really sort of trying to say that anyone even suggesting that there are Canadian values must be a xenophobic bigot because they're just trying to stop people probably with, you know, hijabs or something.
00:36:27.520I'll tell you, by the way, it's worth mentioning because it's quite easy to grouse on this subject and it's important to be positive about it.
00:36:33.820Let me let me give one argument for positivity, which is worth, I think, more people in Canada and elsewhere picking up, which is one of the things that's remarkable in this age is that the countries that are most open and tolerant are the ones that allow themselves to be most abused for being intolerant.
00:36:51.900And I have a sort of shorthand way to address this, which is to say, look, here in Britain, for instance, we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer, who's the second most important figure in the Cabinet, basically after the Prime Minister.
00:37:11.140The Chancellor of the Exchequer is child of son of immigrants, the Home Secretary that's pretty much the third most important figure in the Cabinet after the Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer is the daughter of immigrants, Friti Patel, and so on and so forth.
00:37:30.100In other words, these countries like Britain that are forever being portrayed as somehow racist societies or unusually bigoted societies, should we say, are actually the ones that just visibly, demonstrably don't have such a problem.
00:37:47.200This isn't to say that some bigotry doesn't exist or some racism doesn't exist, but it is just to say that, I mean, it's sort of provably, like, if you were a racist society, I mean, like, Nazi Germany didn't have very many Jews, you know, at the top, indeed, any.
00:38:02.720Why? Because they were anti-Jews and they wouldn't have done that.
00:38:05.940So if you were a racist society in the same way, you wouldn't have, you know, children of immigrants in your Cabinet.
00:38:13.720Now, but let me flip to the other side of that.
00:38:17.260I don't know how well you know China or India, for instance, but there is a very interesting fact about both countries, both significant global economic powers and much more, both extraordinary civilizations, apart from anything else, of whom I have an enormous amount of admiration.
00:38:32.900But, you know, it is not the case that if you or I moved to China or to India, we would ever be able to find ourselves or our children would be able to find themselves at the top of the governments in those countries.
00:39:41.080And I think there's something, there's something not just dishonest, but sort of pathetic about seeing Canadians fall for the most malign critical analysis of themselves and taking it as true.
00:39:56.100Right, and I mean, you look at a country like Iran, it actually used to have some deal of ethnic diversity until they completely banished everyone who wasn't, you know, a majority Shia government.
00:40:08.320I think the United States is a great example of this.
00:40:10.840You know, just four years ago, well, just before four years ago, they had a president who was a member of an ethnic minority group.
00:40:18.560I don't think that there's any other country in the world that has that or that has had that.
00:40:23.500And as soon as Barack Obama was out of office and they elected Trump, it was because it was a white nationalist movement and white lash and America was, you know, a distinctly racist society, which, you know, of course is untrue.
00:40:36.700Well, Douglas, I really appreciate every moment of your time today.
00:40:40.380It's been such an intriguing conversation.