The WOKE takeover of our schools. How it happened, and what we can do to fight back
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Summary
In this episode, Candice talks with Ginny Roth about why Ontario needs more independent schools. She talks about the growing number of independent schools in the province and why it s better than public schools in many other provinces.
Transcript
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I'm Candice Malcolm and this is The Candice Malcolm Show. Thank you so much for tuning in
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today. We're going to take a little bit of a break from talking about politics and news
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and talk more on the cultural front, talk about families and kids and education. So I've mentioned
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this on the podcast before, but I love summer and I'm a huge proponent of getting kids outside
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in nature. So one of the things my family and I do is the kids take part in the Thousand Hour
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challenge. I try to make sure that they spend 1,000 hours per year outside, which boils down
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to a little less than three hours per day. It's a lot easier in the summer. So you kind
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of have to bank up your time, spend more time outside in the summer so that you can get away
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with less time during the winter, but especially for boys. I have a six-year-old son and him
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and I love to get outside and I'm a firm believer in boys being able to move, being able to be
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boys, run around, be rambunctious. A friend of mine was actually at our Canada Day party,
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told me about a study that she had read and I looked into this afterwards, that boys need
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about two hours of strenuous exercise. And they've done tests on this and found that when boys and
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especially young boys, but also all the way up to teenagers, when they're spending that much time
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outside running around engaging in strenuous exercise, their attention improves, their test scores
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improve. So if you give a boy a math test and get his score, and then you take that same boy the
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next day, you get him to run around outside for two hours and give him the same math test,
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he'll actually perform better the second time. And so we do. My son and I, most mornings we go out,
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we live near a forest and we go to the trailhead. We'll do sometimes five mile walks, eight kilometers.
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And my son loves it. He just loves being outside in nature. And I think part of the problem with
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modern day schools really is that they try to make every child the same, right? They try to make
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every child fit in the same box. They act, they treat boys sometimes like they're dysfunctional
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girls because they don't have the same attention span. They can't sit still. It's not that they're
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not learning. They just don't learn the same way. And for me, I have so many problems with the
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education system. My kids don't go to schools. They don't go to traditional schools at all. Granted,
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they're young. I have a one-year-old, three-year-old, a four-and-a-half-year-old,
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six-year-old. So they're, they're all quite young. But for now, the way to go for me certainly
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is homeschooling. Not everybody has that option. Obviously not everybody has the option
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to avoid public schools. But it's really interesting. And I saw this in the hub earlier
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this week. And so I wanted to invite the author on Ginny Roth. But she did a deep dive into Ontario,
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the growth in independent schools in the province versus the growth in public schools. So this is
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really interesting. From 2013 to 2023, the cumulative percentage of change in Ontario public
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school enrollment was just 1.2%, right? And meanwhile, there was a 22% cumulative growth
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in Ontario independent schools. So imagine the population growth and increase in population over
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the past decade. And yet public school system enrollment has remained relatively flat. And
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you know, anecdotally, so many of the parents that I talked to, public school is just not an option.
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Given the total woke takeover of the schools, given the agenda that has been inserted in, you know,
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it's not just pushing sort of the worst of the woke cultural movement onto children. But I mean,
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there's just, there's just so many problems. And I'm sure we'll get to a bunch of those. So I want
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to introduce Ginny. Ginny is a partner at Crestview Strategy. She advises clients on public affairs and
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government relations. She also served as the director of communication for Pierre Polyev's
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successful conservative leadership campaign. So Ginny, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for
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joining us. Thanks, Candice. It's nice to be here. So tell us about this piece you wrote,
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Why Ontario Needs Independent Schools. You had a co-author here, and you're sort of talking about how
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Ontario, unlike many other provinces in Canada, doesn't offer parents the same kind of choice.
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So why don't you walk us through your argument?
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Sure. Yeah. So I should also give credit to my co-author, Brian Dykema. He and the people at
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Cardus, which is a think tank in Canada, have done a lot of work, like a lot of the research work that
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underpins this argument was done by Cardus. So people should check them out if they're interested
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in learning more. And our premise was basically our own sort of surprise at how in almost every
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other province in Canada, there's some element of school choice. And by that, we mean there's some
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evenness to the playing field when it comes to independent schools and public schools.
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That includes in, you know, NDP-governed British Columbia. People, I think, know about school choice
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in Alberta, but really provinces across the country, most of them have this option. In Ontario,
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we do not. We have a public system that is totally funded by the state and run by the state.
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We also have a Catholic system, which is sort of weird to have one religion represented and
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completely funded by the state. And then when it comes to independent schools, whether it's a religious
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school, a niche like a nature school or something like that, that's appealing to a specific type of
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parental preference or a private school, expensive private school, most of which are in Toronto and
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the surrounding area, they all are kind of on their own. There's, they're regulated in some ways by the
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province, but not much. And the only way that parents can opt into that is if they can afford to.
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Now, to your point about the increase in interest in independent schools, there are a lot of independent
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schools that are trying everything in their power to make it an option for parents. So a lot of the
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smaller independent schools, especially the religious ones, have programs for lower income
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students and families to be able to attend. And they truly try to find ways to make it affordable
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and keep costs down. And so it's interesting, because the fact that there's so much interest,
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even despite the fact that it's hard to attain, if you don't have extra money to spend on schooling,
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that tells me that if there was a way to even the playing field a little bit,
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you know, for instance, if the per student amount, the province is spending on education could just
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follow the student to their school of choice, I think you would just see a massive uptick in uptake.
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And I could say my family is an example of that. I have a son in the Toronto District School
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Board. He's in junior kindergarten. We're doing okay, but we have really expensive childcare costs,
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because I also have a toddler. And we don't, we don't, we're not really members of a faith
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community. So we don't really have an option when it comes to a religious school. And so
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we're kind of stuck with the private system. You know, if we were in Alberta, I would be sending
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my son to a classical school for sure. But we don't have classical school in Ontario. It's too bad.
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It's interesting that you write in your piece that the average private school tuition in Ontario is
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something around $13,000, which, you know, just the cost of it, right, if you were to get a bill for
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that much, it's more than most families can handle. And yet for so many people, especially my generation,
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your generation, it's like, they're so used to paying for some kind of a daycare, because most
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moms do work. And daycares or a nanny or whatever it is that you choose to do, are so much more
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expensive than that, right? Like many people are paying thousands of dollars a month to have that
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option. And so if you're used to that, and you budget that in when the child is young, you can
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continue to pay that. Although of course, if you have multiple kids like you do, and I do,
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it becomes a lot more, a lot steeper. I want to sort of rewind a little bit and just talk about
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perhaps the reason, like, like, why is it that the enrollment in public schools is basically flat?
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I mean, I know it. And this is a conversation that comes up with almost every mom I speak to in
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Ontario. It's like, what has happened to the schools in Ontario, right? It's been a total woke
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takeover. Not just the idea that teaching children that boys can be girls and girls can be boys,
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but also teaching them that Canada is an irredeemably racist country, that white people
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are oppressors, that so much of your life is determined by immutable characteristics like
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your race and gender. It seems to just be so overwhelmingly steeped into the curriculum.
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On top of that, you can add in sort of a fanaticism around science and climate science in particular.
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It seems to me that the curriculum in Ontario has become militantly woke. And I do not understand
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how this has happened under a conservative government. I mean, Doug Ford in part was elected
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because Canadians and people in Ontario were fed up with Fulton McGinty and Kathleen Wynne in part
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because they imposed a sex education curriculum that the parents were very uncomfortable with.
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And so I remember Doug Ford campaigning, saying, we're going to get this stuff out of the
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classrooms, right? And so a lot of us put faith in the conservative government to fix this problem.
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And instead, it's like the exact opposite has happened. And things have gotten so bad
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that, you know, you have to like kind of pre-teach your children or warn them to block out a lot of
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messages that they're going to receive if they do go to public school. And so many people I know just
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refuse to put their children into the schools. But I mean, you work in public affairs. Can you help us
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understand, help the audience understand, like how does this happen? Yeah. So first of all, I'd add a
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few things to that list. Like you're talking about cultural and social issues, and those are really
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important because these years are so formative and kids are spending so many hours in school.
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But there's also this question of like math and pedagogy and how math is taught and whether
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rote timetable and repetition and the things that we know work to teach kids math are emphasized
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enough in the curriculum. Reading. If your parents don't read to you, if you're a lower income kid,
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you depend on learning how to read in school. The idea that phonics isn't as prominent as it
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used to be in the curriculum, like proven methods for teaching kids to read. Just the basics, right?
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Forget about all the extra woke stuff, which is equally concerning. Like the government's like,
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I think, tried to take really, really small steps on that front because to your point,
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the public demands it. So they've tried to bring back some basic math curriculum. They've tried to
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limit phone use in schools, which I think is also a real concern for parents.
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But it's, they're kind of half measures. And I think that is a good hint about what's going on here.
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There are institutions and they're all dominated by left-wing opinions and left-wing voices that
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have more sway in the school system in Ontario than parents do. Certainly the teachers unions,
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but also public servants in the Ontario Ministry of Education. I think one of the biggest offenders
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here is OISE, the biggest teachers' college in Ontario that's teaching, that's identifying which
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teachers, which people to train to be teachers and then training them to be teachers and how to be
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teachers in pedagogy. And all of those institutions and environments are also the boards. You know,
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to give the Ontario government a bit of credit, they've taken over a few boards because their
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offences are so egregious that even this government couldn't sort of stand by. So all of these
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institutional forces at play resist the kind of reform and priorities that you and I are talking
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about. And not only that, they propagate and promote, whether you want to call it woke or sort of like
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morally relativist or left-wing or whatever you want to describe it, those values, that content of
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that curriculum, that those methods of teaching are all missions for these people who are in these
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positions of power. And I think to push back on that, to resist would take a really, really strong
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government that wants to burn political capital potentially and get, you know, negative media
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stories written about them. And so there are downsides to that. And governments need to get re-elected.
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That's part of their mission. And so you have to balance your ability to get re-elected and
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to withstand political pressure with what you want to advance. And ultimately, if these education
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reforms fall down the priority list, they just become not worth the fight, let's say. So I think
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that's a lot of the rationale. And they have pursued some reforms where they felt like it was worth the
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fight, whether it's on some of the math curriculum or limiting phones in schools. But pushing those reforms
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further and tackling some of the other big items that we've talked about, I think, have just been
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deemed to be not a high enough priority and not worth the political risk.
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Well, I suppose it's a failing of people like me. Like, I mean, we need to make them a bigger priority
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and a bigger issue so that Ontario Conservatives know that, you know, parents aren't happy, right?
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Parents are very dissatisfied with the current state of things. And Jenny, I'll even expand it,
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right? Because, yeah, I agree that so much of it is just, you know, activists that take over these
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boards and have an outsized influence. But this also happens on the private side as well, particularly
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in some of those elite schools. I know of, again, so many parents who have older children,
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and they tell me, Candace, if my children were your children's age, I would never put them in
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one of these schools, like Upper Canada College or Bishop Strong or, I mean, any of them,
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Braggson Hall. I mean, sometimes we see sort of viral social media posts by someone like Jonathan Kaye
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pointing out how these all-girls schools are promoting the fact that only 75 percent of their
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student body identifies as girls, right? Or trying to push, you know, trans girls or, you know,
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biological boys into girls schools and vice versa. I mean, so much of it seems to just be like a
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cultural contagion that's happening, particularly around Toronto. I don't know if it's happening
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as badly in other parts of the country, perhaps Vancouver. What can parents do to push back
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against this at their other kids' schools? I think they have to have louder voices, right? We have no,
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we have no special interest group representing parents. It doesn't really exist.
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And most parents are busy, so they have concerns and they just don't, they're not equipped to give
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voice to them. They, there's no organization to represent them. There are no activists channeling
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their voices into high impact advertising or media stories or any of the kinds of things that put
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pressure on governments. And if parents want to have impact, they have to have, they have to have that
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voice. And so, you know, I think you are trying to do your part, Candace, and media institutions that
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try to give voice to the other side of the story and to give voice to those parents are crucial.
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You know, this is partially why we wrote this, why Brian and I wrote this op-ed, was to try to kind
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of advance this message. And I will say we got a lot of engagement on it and interest. So I think
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that speaks to this kind of like latent public opinion that maybe has not had a voice. But parents
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have to activate. They should vote with their feet where they can. For those who can afford
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independent schools, you know, they are. Right? I think that's another thing that happens
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is there's less pushback on the public curriculum because the people who are frustrated with it try
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to opt out if at all possible. So there's almost this like built-in challenge that as the more fed
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up you get, the more you're likely to opt out and therefore kind of give up the fight
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on making the change. And so it's challenging. But I think parents will ultimately prioritize
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the education of their kids if they can. And if they have the opportunity to have a voice,
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they should speak up. And they should apply pressure locally too. Parents who push back on
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principals and teachers often get heard. And so it's worth it. It's worth it to speak up.
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I 100% agree. I want to pick up on one of the things you said, which is about how parents often
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opt out. So if you're fed up with the school system, you might just decide to pull your child,
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which is then one fewer family advocating for the kinds of sensible changes. I want to shift the
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conversation a little bit on that note, because I recently had lunch with a few Jewish friends in
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Toronto. And to me, that's like a whole different level to the crisis in education for our Jewish
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friends and neighbors. And that is that there has been a total wave of anti-Semitism in Canada post
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October 7th. I mean, it's wild to think that a terrorist attack where Jewish families were
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murdered in their houses and in their beds would lead to hatred against Jews in Canada. And yet here
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we are and it's happened. And I have personal friends who are Jewish in Toronto who have decided to
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not just pull their children out of the school system, but leave Canada, actually leave the country
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because they feel so unsafe. And I heard, and I saw a Twitter thread from an individual,
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I don't know this person, his name's Michael Sachs, but he wrote a thread which really resonated with
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me partially because I've heard the story from other Jewish friends. I'm going to read part
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of this thread. He says, after 30 years as a proud Canadian citizen, a diehard Canucks fan,
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and someone who's deeply loved this country, I've made the hardest decision of my life. I've moved my
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family forward to the United States. I want to be clear about this decision. It wasn't made lightly,
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and I never imagined leaving our community, our family, our friends, and yet here we are.
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It comes after years of watching the country I love erode into something unrecognizable. Now,
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he talks about a few of the issues that I think we can all relate to that became sort of political
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issues during the recent election campaign. Cost of living, our cities are in crisis. He's talking
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about fentanyl and crime and just drug overdoses, homelessness. But then he goes on to sort of talk
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more specifically about the Jewish community. He says, Canada's Jewish community expected solidarity
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after October 7th, and instead we got gaslighting. Synagogues were vandalized, schools were shot at,
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Jewish teachers intimidated, Jewish employees abused in their workplaces, union members treated
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like second-class citizens, rallies glorifying terrorism have been allowed to take place in our
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neighborhoods, at our places of worship, while Jewish students have had to fight for their basic
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right in public schools. I've received multiple death threats over the years advocating for my community.
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I mean, this is like a very real concern for people. You know, this individual was in Vancouver.
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I'm sure it's bad there. It's also really bad in Toronto where, you know, having a Jewish identity
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has been flipped into being a colonialist and somehow someone who advocates for genocide or something.
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And I mean, the fact that, again, this is happening in Canada and it like barely makes the news,
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Ginny. I'm wondering if you've observed this, you've heard about this as well and what you make of it.
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I have observed it. I, like you, I have close personal friends who are thinking of literally
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moving out of the country that they grew up in because they just can't imagine allowing their kids
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to be raised in this type of environment. And there are all kinds of reports. There was a report
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recently. I think it was, it came out yesterday or the day before. And one of the anecdotes was
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that a young girl was told she was only half human by her teacher because she's Jewish.
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That is wild to me. I, you know, if you told me that when I was young, I just wouldn't believe
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that that would be possible in Canada. And so, yeah, I think this goes back to what we were talking
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about earlier. Whether it has to do with the curriculum, the people who are crafting it
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in the public service or the teachers who are promoting it and how they are taught in teachers
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college. Like there is a worldview that is highly dominant, that is radical and not of all mainstream,
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that inflects those institutions, that teaches that the world is divisible into the oppressed and
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the oppressors and that Jewish people are oppressors and that therefore they need to be silenced or put
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down. And it is like, it is toxic. It's not reflective of what most parents want for their
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kids, forget whether or not they're Jewish. And I worry that not only is it impacting the kids in
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school today, it's impacting like the future generations who are going to be taught in this
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worldview, potentially in contradiction to what their parents are teaching them at home.
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And so, yeah, I think so many things, you could write a whole other column about curriculum reform
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and pedagogical reform and expectations for districts and teachers specifically and discipline
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for teachers. There's not a lot of accountability in the teaching profession. You know, most people,
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if they fail their jobs, they get fired, they make less money. That's obviously not true of teachers in
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the public system. So it's too bad that we weren't able to approach a lot of those topics in the
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op-ed. Maybe we need to write another one because I share your concern. And there's so many different
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ways to go about fixing it. Our op-ed is just like a drop in the bucket.
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Well, yeah, no, it's definitely interesting. I think that the cultural Marxism, the sort of idea that
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there's oppressors and oppressed. And it is funny because I was talking to these Jewish friends and
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you know, they were rehashing some of the same concerns that were raised in this Twitter thread.
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And it's like, you know, they were like, Candace, how would you feel if your identity was politicized
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and that, you know, just being proud of who you are would be considered racist? And, you know, or the
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synagogues being targeted. And I said, well, you know, that that has happened to Canadians, right? True
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North has been at the forefront of reporting the fact that there have been 118 Christian churches
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vandalized or burned down since the unmarked grave story came out in 2021. And yes, being a proud
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English Canadian, or being proud of your race is certainly considered to be racist in Canada. So in
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some ways, the issues that are facing the Jewish community are the same issues that English Canadians
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have been facing for years as well. And, you know, I think that the problem is getting worse. And if we
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don't stand up and fight against it, I mean, rather than picking up and leaving, I think it is better
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probably to stay and fight. But I think that a lot of it does have to do with what you're saying, like
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basic curriculum reform and not allowing the radicals to write the narrative and to write
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the agenda for what children are taught just as like basic truths. What do you think?
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Yeah, I totally agree. I think like so many with so many issues, giving voice to an organized
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perspective that represents how average people feel is the way to try to find a solution to this.
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You know, it's too bad because I think Pierre Polyev was making a lot of headway connecting with like
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regular common sense Canadians about this kind of thing, more as it concerns public policy at the
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federal level. And he won millions of votes on that basis. But because of Donald Trump and all sorts of
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other circumstances, he didn't have the mandate to kind of to win and kind of bring that change to
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federal departments, how universities are funded, etc. And because of the Canada US dynamics,
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a lot of those issues have been like put on the back burner. And I don't know that Prime Minister
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Mark Carney has had to address them. But they're still there, they're still simmering. And when you talk
00:22:44.780
to regular Canadians about these kinds of things, like they connect with it. And I think maybe this is like,
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if we want to have a hopeful note, I don't think that these radical opinions and people
00:22:56.940
represent the mainstream. I just I really don't. They just have disproportionate power in our
00:23:01.740
institutions. And so any young person who has this common sense view who is able to make a difference
00:23:08.060
in an institution should do it. They should seek to like gather power and influence and continue to
00:23:15.180
sort of preach that common sense message. And I think in politics, we have to have a lot of
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confidence that when we talk about these things, they resonate, even if there are nasty op eds written
00:23:24.140
about it in the government funded mainstream news. That doesn't mean that that reflects public
00:23:30.300
opinion. In fact, I think this kind of thing really does resonate with the average person in the general
00:23:34.380
public. And so we have to like take comfort in that and, you know, get some strength from it.
00:23:38.860
I completely agree. I think, well, I mean, you can look at public opinion studies, like only maybe 30%
00:23:44.620
of Canadians believe the narrative that Canada is like an irredeemably racist country or that somehow
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we're settlers in someone else's country. I mean, 30% is a lot. But it's there's a clear majority that
00:23:56.300
oppose that kind of thinking. And I think you're right. Like, you know, I often feel like I'm swimming
00:24:01.820
upstream in the culture because I'm pushing back against so many things at once. And I think that there
00:24:06.780
is a cultural tipping point some sometime in 2023 or 2024, maybe, where all of a sudden,
00:24:12.700
all of my peers and friends of friends and people I know, like, would kind of quietly be like,
00:24:16.460
oh, I totally agree with you on this stuff. Like the transept has gone way too far.
00:24:19.820
The land acknowledgement stuff is just rolling your eyes at it. Like, and I do think that Poliev
00:24:25.020
was successfully able to pick up on that as unfortunate. And it shows you the power of the
00:24:29.660
propagandistic media in Canada that they have to just flip the switch on the election say,
00:24:34.700
oh, all of your problems have disappeared. And now let's focus the election on
00:24:38.460
US President Donald Trump, instead of all of the cultural issues that we're fighting day in and
00:24:43.020
day out. Ginny, I really appreciate your time and your insight. Thank you so much for joining the
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podcast. Thanks, Candice. All right, that is Ginny Roth from Crestview Strategy. Folks,
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that's all the time we have for today. Thanks so much for tuning in. I'm Candice Malcolm.
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This is the Candice Malcolm Show. Thank you and God bless.