The Candice Malcolm Show - Trudeau is marching Canada down a dark path

00:00:00.000 Why on earth did Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoke the Emergency Act and what exactly does

00:00:05.180 it give him the power to do? I'm Candace Malcolm and this is the Candace Malcolm Show.

00:00:12.680 Hi everyone, thank you so much for tuning into the podcast today. So as you know,

00:00:16.780 Justin Trudeau invoked the Emergency Measures Act on Monday afternoon. This is the most dramatic

00:00:21.380 move possible for a prime minister in Canada, giving himself broad and sweeping powers that

00:00:26.460 are previously unprecedented during peacetime. So these powers were not used during the Oka

00:00:31.720 crisis in 1990. They were not used following 9-11 or following the terrorist attack on Parliament Hill

00:00:37.720 when an active terrorist shooter entered Parliament just steps away from where members of Parliament

00:00:43.200 were meeting. But Trudeau invoked them this week. Why? Because a small group of maybe a few hundred

00:00:48.960 truckers refused to leave and continued to camp out in Ottawa. Was the Freedom Convoy really that

00:00:54.880 big of a threat? Was this necessary? And what exactly does this give Trudeau the power to do?

00:00:59.600 Well, to help me make sense of all of this, I am joined by Ryan O'Connor. Ryan O'Connor is a

00:01:04.640 Toronto-based lawyer working as a partner at Zayuna Law Firm. O'Connor has written articles in the

00:01:09.380 Toronto Sun, Post Media and Post Millennial. Outside of his work as a lawyer, O'Connor serves as a director

00:01:14.620 on the board of Ontario Proud. And I think most importantly, Ryan, you are married to the wonderful

00:01:20.340 Jessica who represented True North when we sued the Trudeau government's debate commissions back

00:01:24.400 during the 2019 federal election. We won triumphantly because of her work, her brilliant

00:01:29.180 work as a lawyer. And it was a huge victory for all Canadians for free speech and freedom of press.

00:01:34.640 So thank you so much for joining us today, Ryan.

00:01:36.920 Well, it's good to be with you, Candice. And that latter point is probably my proudest accomplishment.

00:01:41.920 Me too, me too. Well, Ryan, I want to, on a more serious note, I want to ask you about the

00:01:47.880 Emergencies Act, because there was sort of a lot of confusion as to what it did. I know that some

00:01:52.680 people online last night were saying that this was, you know, martial law, and it was suspending

00:01:59.000 civil liberties and other Trudeau supporters were pushing back saying, no, it doesn't go that broad.

00:02:03.280 And this has parliamentary oversight. So can you help us make sense of what exactly this act does

00:02:09.280 and how it works?

00:02:11.880 So the Emergency Act was enacted in 1988. It replaced the War Measures Act, which the Prime Minister's

00:02:18.420 father, Pierre, had enacted in 1970 in response to the October crisis, the terrorist attacks were going

00:02:25.040 on in Quebec, kidnappings, assassinations. And one of the reasons why this was enacted was to ensure that

00:02:31.340 this emergency legislation that we had was compliant with the Charter, which had come into effect six

00:02:36.260 years prior. There are very strict criteria that have to be met in order for the Federal Cabinet, in this case,

00:02:43.440 to declare what's called a national emergency. There has to be, broadly speaking, a threat to public safety

00:02:50.180 that's beyond the capacity of a province to deal with. And in fact, the national emergency is defined as being

00:02:57.520 beyond the capacity of any of our current laws to address. So it can be seen to be sort of a

00:03:05.960 last step for a government that has exhausted all options in a time of actual crisis. But there's a

00:03:11.260 very real question from a legal perspective is whether or not that definition of national emergency

00:03:15.280 has been met, and whether or not we're in such a crisis at this stage in response to protests and

00:03:19.580 some blockades that would warrant the enactment of very significant legislation that can trample on

00:03:24.920 Canadian civil liberties.

00:03:25.860 Well, so what does the Trudeau government say? Like they must have issued some kind of

00:03:30.660 legal document saying what the crisis is, why they believe it's a crisis, and why the current laws

00:03:37.200 are not enough insufficient to help them deal with this?

00:03:41.340 Well, they've issued an order in council, which is an order of the Federal Cabinet. One of the

00:03:46.100 justifications was the economic impact that some of these blockades have had. Let's bear in mind that

00:03:51.260 the blockade in the Windsor-Detroit area, the Ambassador Bridge in Ontario, has been clear.

00:03:57.320 That blockade is no longer impacting the local economy or the Canadian economy broadly. There

00:04:02.320 are still some blockades at border crossings, we understand. But it appears that law enforcement

00:04:07.340 officials have the ability and the discretion to deal with that. But some of the other justifications,

00:04:12.400 again, just don't make sense. They're concerned about political donations that might be financing

00:04:17.180 the trucker convoy and the blockades. And again, citing the economic impact that blockades have

00:04:24.120 had because Canada is recovering from the pandemic. You know, we've had two years where government

00:04:30.540 policy has imposed very significant restrictions on the economy that have had economic impacts for

00:04:37.660 small businesses, you know, and individuals. So, you know, the government's using justifications

00:04:43.420 for these extreme measures that, you know, frankly, have existed for the last two years, and it hasn't

00:04:48.140 it hasn't utilized. So it's a bit perplexing reading the order and counsel. And there's also a reference

00:04:53.500 to an impact, I'm paraphrasing, on supply chains, on economic activity. Well, you know, the government's

00:04:59.900 mandates have had that impact on economic activity long before these blockades were imposed. So those are

00:05:04.540 some of the justifications that the Trudeau Cabinet has used to justify invoking this national emergency.

00:05:08.940 Okay, one other question on this topic of why they would do this. So there was a tweet on Tuesday

00:05:15.340 afternoon from Ashley Burke over at the CBC. She writes this public safety minister says what's

00:05:21.260 driving the demonstrations across Canada is a quote, very small and organized group driven by an ideology

00:05:26.640 to overthrow the government for whatever means they may wish to use unquote, she goes on to say

00:05:32.220 that Minister Mendicino said that the arrest in Coutts, Alberta is an example of this, what the government

00:05:38.060 is concerned talking about how a cache of weapons were seized. And she continues to say public,

00:05:43.420 public safety minister, Mark Mendicino has said there have been multiple people trying to characterize

00:05:49.420 the blockades as about vaccines and mandates, and about fatigue with the pandemic. But he says that is

00:05:55.820 not what is driving this movement. So so, Brian, this is the first I'm hearing about this whole idea that

00:06:02.300 that this whole freedom convoy was just a front to actually overthrow the Trudeau government,

00:06:07.900 and that there's a small, you know, serious group of driven by ideology to overthrow the government.

00:06:13.900 Was that mentioned in the order in council? And is this something that you've heard before?

00:06:18.780 Well, that's not specifically mentioned in the order in council. It's not something that I've

00:06:23.660 heard generally, there's been rumblings online about the motivations of some of the

00:06:27.260 the protesters, you know, this is a very broad movement in Canada, I'm sure many of them would

00:06:31.340 want to see this government replaced with a different political party, given how they've,

00:06:37.420 you know, the policies have enacted during the pandemic. But I don't know if this is based on

00:06:41.820 intelligence that the government has access to and is letting the public know about. So I'm not so

00:06:46.220 sure where it's going with that. But the government has to be very careful that this national emergency

00:06:51.340 was not declared solely because it might disagree with the objectives of some of the protesters.

00:06:56.060 If you simply disagree with the government and want to have a protest, that's what happens in

00:07:00.460 a liberal democracy. And it cannot and should not ever be used as justification to impose very

00:07:05.740 sweeping laws that can restrict assembly, very sweeping laws that can freeze, in this case,

00:07:10.700 bank accounts without judicial authorization, and to clear otherwise legal political protests.

00:07:16.460 So the government is treading on very dangerous water. If they believe that this is something

00:07:20.380 ideological, you know, an attempt to take over the government, so to speak, without justification.

00:07:25.340 So it's somewhat concerning to hear that, when the government didn't even indicate that in

00:07:29.260 its announcement yesterday.

00:07:31.420 Okay, so so we sort of get some kind of a murky picture of why the government would do this. Let's

00:07:37.180 let's talk a little bit about what they now have the powers to do, because you touched on a little

00:07:41.740 bit seizing bank accounts, and Christia Frillian came out talking about how insurance policies can be

00:07:47.340 canceled, people can lose their corporate bank accounts. And Justin Trudeau talked about how

00:07:52.220 truck drivers, sorry, tow truck drivers can be compelled now to tow these trucks, because that

00:07:57.500 was part of the problem that they were having before. So can you can you help us understand what

00:08:02.300 what exactly is being enabled and whether any of this, these options and these new powers have been exercised?

00:08:09.180 Well, we'll have to, we'll have to wait and see if they're exercised. The cabinet now has given

00:08:16.540 itself the authority to issue orders that they had expressed the intended to yesterday, commandeering

00:08:22.460 tow trucks to clear heavy vehicles from protests, freezing assets of accounts that are believed to be

00:08:28.380 financing the convoy and, and also or alternatively, the blockades. Now, the cabinet can under the legislation

00:08:37.180 was properly invoked, and the emergency was properly declared, then the government does have wide

00:08:42.620 latitude to issue those those regulations. Some of those regulations haven't, to my mind, been published

00:08:49.420 yet. So we'll see. And the government does have seven days to issue a motion before parliament, which

00:08:56.300 can be discussed and debated about its justification and its intention. So a lot of this is still unfolding

00:09:01.260 and remains to be seen. But this is very broad legislation that does allow cabinet wide latitude

00:09:07.100 to issue those, those orders. And some of those have very significant civil liberties implications,

00:09:12.300 commandeering private property and freezing bank accounts, the most significant of that.

00:09:16.460 Well, so interestingly, we've heard several legal groups and constitutional groups come out and

00:09:21.260 oppose this, the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms, the Canadian Constitution Foundation,

00:09:26.540 which are both sort of more centre right rule of law groups, but also the Canadian Civil Liberties

00:09:31.500 Association, which is more of a left-wing group. They've all condemned the decision to invoke these

00:09:37.100 powers. Do you think that will have any bearing? Do you think that, you know, lawyers trying to stop

00:09:43.660 this? Like, what can lawyers do to try to stop this? What can Canadians do to try to stop this? And do you

00:09:50.220 think that these critics will have any impact on this?

00:09:52.700 Well, it largely depends on the focus of a challenge. We still have to see whether or not

00:09:58.860 co-tracks are being commandeered, bank accounts are actually being frozen, or if this just is an

00:10:02.860 attempt to disquelch opposition to this government. It is heartening, from my perspective, to see those

00:10:09.660 who might be identified as more progressive groups, as well as groups on the other side of the spectrum,

00:10:14.140 more conservative in nature, opposing this. That tells you that a lot of lawyers oppose this.

00:10:20.700 You know, this again, this is unprecedented. This act has never been invoked before. And those who

00:10:26.700 have been lobbying for the invocation of the Emergency Act, whether they be politicians and

00:10:31.500 those who may be supportive of this government, we know the NDP has endorsed this, despite not

00:10:36.540 endorsing a lot of the, you know, the recent pandemic restrictions necessarily. You know, it's unfortunate

00:10:43.980 to see them endorsing it, but at the same time, it's heartening to see that there are people who

00:10:48.060 generally oppose this. And look, at the end of the day, if you oppose the protests and the motivation

00:10:52.380 behind them and oppose the blockades and the motivation behind them, you know, what's to say

00:10:56.140 the government can't use these powers in the future against a cause that you support? And it should give

00:11:00.860 all of us applause as Canadians, as well as lawyers, that when you start to exercise this power and it

00:11:05.500 starts to become normalized, it may be used against causes that you believe in. And we're all plural for

00:11:11.020 it in a liberal democracy, if that's the case. Absolutely. And so many of the people who are

00:11:16.380 okay with it today or cheering it along were the same kind of people that were ripping their hair

00:11:20.620 out over, over just, sorry, over Stephen Harper's. I saw Stephen Taylor tweet that, you know, many of

00:11:27.500 the same people who agree with this were very upset when Stephen Harper removed the long form census.

00:11:34.780 And that was something that they thought was a threat to liberal democracy. And here they are

00:11:38.700 standing, standing quietly by. So, I mean, it's interesting because we, you know, we talk about

00:11:44.540 groups that have come out against it. We've also interestingly seen some people come out in favor

00:11:49.580 of it. I saw Peter McKay tweeted in favor of saying it's necessary. I believe he had a piece in the

00:11:55.340 National Post saying that same thing. I haven't really heard a huge uproar from Candace Bergen and

00:12:01.260 the Conservative Caucus. You know, why do you think that there haven't been more, why hasn't there been

00:12:07.900 more political pushback? Doug Ford, the premier of Ontario, seems to be perfectly happy with it.

00:12:13.980 Why, why are these conservatives going along with a huge power grab by a liberal prime minister?

00:12:19.500 I think there's a tension there with those on the conservative side of the spectrum,

00:12:23.340 because they often portray themselves as being supportive of law and order. And, you know,

00:12:28.700 there are some lawbreakers, like, you know, the best example was the Ambassador Ridge blockade.

00:12:33.820 Any sort of blockade of critical infrastructure should be dealt with in the confines of the law.

00:12:39.020 But the law already allowed us to allow governments, pardon me, and police to clear

00:12:43.500 the blockade in Windsor without a national emergency. We've seen some of the other blockades be

00:12:48.700 be cleared out in various other places. So I think there's a tension on, you know,

00:12:53.100 for conservative parties say, well, they want to still support law and order, and this is a way

00:12:57.260 to do so. But what I find fascinating more generally is that no one on any side of the

00:13:02.540 political spectrum seriously called for the invocation of the Emergencies Act when our critical

00:13:07.340 infrastructure, rail, forestry and the like, were being impeded during the protests and blockades in

00:13:14.060 February 2020. No serious person was advocating for the potential suspension of civil liberties and

00:13:20.460 the imposition of the Emergencies Act. Yeah, for some reason, that's par for the discourse this

00:13:26.380 time. And I find that to be incredibly disheartening. No one should approach this from a political

00:13:31.100 perspective. They should approach it from a civil liberties perspective. And I think we should,

00:13:35.180 I'll be alarmed wherever anyone is on the spectrum about the challenges of civil liberties that this

00:13:39.260 is presenting.

00:13:39.820 Well, that sort of reminds me, we saw the image right around the same time as Justin Trudeau was

00:13:45.340 making his announcement of invoking these Emergency Measures Act. There was a pretty

00:13:50.300 ruckus looking protest in Gastown in my hometown of Vancouver, where they violently desecrated a

00:13:57.820 statue, tore it down, the statue of Gassy Jack, who that's sort of the latest person on the hit list,

00:14:03.260 I suppose, for some left wing activists. They pulled the statue down. Interesting, because I haven't seen

00:14:10.540 any of that kind of violence or desecration or destruction of private property at the trucker

00:14:16.140 protests. But yet, you know, to your point, no one would have ever imagined invoking emergency

00:14:24.060 measures over these things. Why does a society, why does a prime minister treat left wing groups

00:14:29.100 so differently than pro-freedom working class groups?

00:14:34.140 Well, the prime minister sees that there's an emergency, but it's not a national emergency.

00:14:38.060 It's a political emergency. The prime minister is being squeezed from both ends of the spectrum.

00:14:42.380 We've seen that in recent polling numbers. His response has been seen to be inadequate by those

00:14:49.100 who want a more forceful response. And he's also being opposed by others in the political spectrum who

00:14:55.500 want to see him remove all mandates and all COVID restrictions and let Canadians move on with their

00:14:59.740 lives. So that's created, as I said, a political emergency for the Liberal Party. And they're taking an

00:15:04.060 opportunity, ironically, two years into the pandemic, when there may have been justifications potentially

00:15:10.220 at the beginning of the pandemic to assert these powers. The prime minister is doing so now because

00:15:15.340 he's being politically squeezed. And that just demonstrates the cynicism of this. This, again,

00:15:20.140 is potentially very draconian legislation that should only be invoked in rare circumstances,

00:15:25.740 perhaps if there's a war or a serious natural disaster. But the prime minister appears to be invoking

00:15:31.500 it not for those reasons, but for his own political and partisan gain. And I frankly find that to be

00:15:37.340 cynical and, and frankly, an affront to liberal democracy.

00:15:41.980 Well, I agree. I hope he pays a political price. Well, final question for you, Ryan. So what do you,

00:15:47.020 what do you think is lying ahead? What's going to happen in the next few days here,

00:15:50.940 both in parliament in terms of getting this, this emergency act through to the point where they can

00:15:55.900 actually start using the powers. And then once those powers are enabled, what, what, what do you expect to

00:16:00.460 see on the streets in places like Ottawa? I don't know if there's anyone left in Windsor. I don't think so.

00:16:05.180 But in wherever else these trucker convoy, convoy protests may pop up.

00:16:11.820 Well, we saw with Ontario's declaration of emergency, it really didn't change things aside from clearing

00:16:16.140 the blockade, which would have presumably been cleared anyways, there was a court injunction.

00:16:20.540 You know, the trucker convoy in Ottawa has been there now going on for weeks, and I don't think they're going

00:16:25.580 anywhere. I don't know that there's an appetite to clear those individuals out, nor should there be

00:16:29.980 if they're peacefully protesting in the parliamentary precinct. But what is going to unfold in parliament

00:16:35.420 over the next few days is very interesting. The emergencies act requires that the government

00:16:40.780 table a motion for consideration within seven days. The state of emergency, pardon me, the national

00:16:46.780 emergency can exist for 30 days, there are opportunities to extend that. But there's also a

00:16:51.820 built-in accountability mechanism. And I just wonder if the Liberal government is really considered that

00:16:55.980 there has to be an inquiry into the use of the emergency power, that inquiry has to start within

00:17:02.860 60 days after the end of the emergency. And there has to be a report to parliament on that inquiry within

00:17:08.300 360 days of the of the emergency. So there's a built-in accountability mechanism. And while we hope

00:17:15.820 that if there is overreach, that lawyers and legal organizations will be challenging any government

00:17:22.300 overreach, particularly if it breaches the Charter of Rights or Constitution otherwise, there is a built-in

00:17:26.780 accountability mechanism. And I'm hopeful that from that accountability mechanism over the next year,

00:17:32.140 we'll see recommendations that will restrict government from ever using this this tool, which

00:17:37.740 should be rarely used, but using it as a tool for political gain as opposed to supporting public safety

00:17:42.780 and public health. Well, it's going to be really interesting to watch it unfold. I hope I hope,

00:17:47.100 again, Trudeau pays the price. I hope this backfires on him. Because, again, we've seen unbelievable

00:17:52.780 abuses of power over the last two years restrictions on our freedoms. And, you know, to pretend that this

00:17:58.620 is some kind of a national emergency that warrants even more temporary emergency powers, I think,

00:18:03.500 to many Canadians is just a complete farce. So Ryan O'Connor, lawyer in Toronto, thank you so much

00:18:08.220 for joining the show. Thank you for helping us understand and break everything down.

00:18:11.100 Good to be with you, Candice. Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm

00:18:16.140 Candice Malcolm. And this is The Candice Malcolm Show.

The Candice Malcolm Show - February 16, 2022

Trudeau is marching Canada down a dark path

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