The Candice Malcolm Show - Why do Christians get criticized and denigrated, ignored and erased？

00:00:00.000 The secular, post-modern, post-national left may hate Christmas, but it's a holiday that

00:00:05.780 all Canadians should celebrate, even if you're not Christian. I'm Candice Malcolm and this is

00:00:10.480 The Candice Malcolm Show. Hi everyone, thank you so much for tuning into the program. Now,

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00:00:44.260 if you enjoy the program, if you enjoy the content, please consider giving us a five-star review.

00:00:49.160 It really helps us out. Now, listen, folks, we are living in post-modern, post-nationalist times.

00:00:55.240 Just listen to Justin Trudeau. His dream of a post-modern, post-nationalist Canada has come

00:01:01.220 true. The secular value of a separation of church and state has been taken to an extreme limit here

00:01:08.020 in Canada. It has led to the complete removal of religious symbols, religious concepts, and

00:01:13.600 religious festivities from the public square. Just look at Toronto. They no longer have a Christmas

00:01:18.240 market. It is now called a winter festival winter market. The strange wordplay doesn't apply to any

00:01:24.240 other religious groups, but it does apply to Christians. So why do Christians get criticized

00:01:28.980 and denigrated? Why do they get ignored and erased? And can we completely erase Christianity from our

00:01:35.720 modern society? Can we divorce our values, our norms, our morality from their Judeo-Christian roots?

00:01:42.160 And should we? Well, the political left says enthusiastically yes to all these questions,

00:01:46.800 but I believe there's a growing appetite for learning more about our traditions, our norms,

00:01:51.720 our values, and the attitudes and how they build up our modern day society. You see it more in young

00:01:56.280 Canadians and certainly you see it in new Canadians. So for a special Christmas week edition of the

00:02:01.680 Candice Malcolm Show, I would like to welcome Ray Pennings to the program. Ray is the executive vice

00:02:07.520 president of CARDIS. CARDIS is a think tank based in Ottawa that focuses on human dignity, strong families,

00:02:13.360 religious freedom, formative education, and healthy communities. Ray has led a number of large

00:02:18.300 research projects at CARDIS over the years and was the lead author of Death is Natural Reframing the

00:02:24.140 End-of-Life Conversations in Canada. In addition to authoring CARDIS reports and columns, he's also

00:02:28.800 written several chapters in several publications. So Ray Pennings, thank you so much for joining the show.

00:02:34.600 Thank you for having me.

00:02:36.600 Okay, so let's start with a very simple, very basic question, and that is why do we celebrate Christmas

00:02:41.840 and why is it an important milestone not just for Christians but for our entire civilization?

00:02:47.980 Well, why does any society celebrate a holiday? It's to bring to its attention, the collective

00:02:54.520 attention of the country, something that it deems to be important. And certainly, you know, there are

00:02:59.480 various holidays that celebrate various figures in history. I don't think whether you're a Christian 1.00

00:03:04.880 or not a Christian, few would argue that the birth of Jesus 2,000 years ago in his life has been one

00:03:13.580 of the singular impacting things in the world. So, you know, just from a matter of history and

00:03:21.340 historical literacy and understanding that there's a historical element to it. But it isn't just an

00:03:28.340 indifferent thing. Obviously, for Christians in particular, the incarnation of Jesus Christ, 0.86

00:03:34.460 God becoming human, is at the core of the Christian religion. And that has been historically and

00:03:41.220 remains today the most prominent faith in Canada. There are many people for whom it doesn't have that

00:03:49.300 same meaning in a personal sort of sense, but the values that come with that, the sense of giving,

00:03:54.960 you know, God sent his only begotten son as a gift into the world, the notion of giving, the notion of

00:04:00.920 love, the notion of sharing, all of these things that are embodied in the Christian faith are brought

00:04:07.620 to light in terms of this day. So it's an entirely appropriate day to have as a public holiday, whether

00:04:13.960 you're a Christian or not.

00:04:15.960 One of the things I see that I find so fascinating is that you see people that come to Canada from other

00:04:21.060 parts of the world, other societies, other religious backgrounds, and they love Christmas. They take part in

00:04:26.540 it. You know, I mentioned off the top that the Toronto Christmas market has been rebranded this

00:04:32.240 year as the distillery Winter Village. And I've heard from friends who come from immigrant families

00:04:38.140 about how disappointing it is, people who aren't Christian even, because they love Christmas. They

00:04:43.520 love the trees, the lights, the, like you said, the festivities, the idea of giving, and just the whole

00:04:50.640 holiday season. And they get disappointed when they see this sort of political correct crowd trying to

00:04:56.340 erase it. So why do you think it is, first of all, that people who aren't Christian love Christmas in

00:05:03.140 so many instances, more so in some instances than the Christians themselves? And then the second

00:05:09.460 question, why is it that in a country like Canada, in a city like Toronto, we have this instinct to try to

00:05:16.260 erase our own culture and our own, in our own holidays? Yeah, let me, let me answer this, the second

00:05:22.220 question first and deal with the negative. So why is it that those who by and large, you know, are secular

00:05:28.960 people within a historic country that was based on Christian traditions, you know, find them so offensive 1.00

00:05:35.520 and seek to remove all references to that in public life? It was interesting, the polling we released in

00:05:40.600 November with the Angus Reid Institute, highlighted the fact that we asked the question, do you think

00:05:47.720 the presence of the following groups are beneficial or damaging to Canadian society? And we asked about

00:05:52.960 Catholics, Protestants, Evangelicals, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and atheists. What is interesting is if

00:06:01.920 you were very religious yourself, doesn't matter what religion, you were positive towards other

00:06:07.760 religions, Jews were positive towards Christians, Christians were positive towards Muslims. As you

00:06:13.840 move down, we had four categories of religiosity in terms of your own personal behaviors, and there

00:06:20.020 were seven of them that we measured. As you move to the more secular side, by the time we got to the 23%

00:06:26.860 of the population that would not check a box and identify with any religion, they would call

00:06:31.840 themselves agnostic or atheists, they were negative on the contribution of every other group 0.96

00:06:37.760 except atheists. So it is, you know, people of faith tend to be far more generous and magnanimous towards

00:06:47.440 people of other faiths, even though they profoundly disagree. Nobody checks a religious box. You're a Jew, you're a 0.99

00:06:54.400 Muslim, you're a Hindu, you're a Catholic, you're a Protestant. And people of faith disagree quite profoundly with each

00:07:01.580 other. And yet, they recognize the very positive contribution that people of other faiths are making

00:07:07.240 to public life. Whereas what you're seeing is as you become less faithful in your personal life and

00:07:13.500 religion isn't there, there's a hostility towards all faiths, and especially the Christian faith, which is

00:07:19.200 the most dominant in our society. And of course, it's easy to find reasons. If you want to, you know, you can

00:07:24.180 talk about residential schools, you can talk about abuse, you can talk, no institution is as perfect, and

00:07:30.220 certainly institutions of faith have more than their share. If you want to find warts, you don't have to look very

00:07:36.020 far. In fact, as people of faith, the very reason we are broken sinful is the very reason we have a faith and a

00:07:43.940 trust in God along the way. So I think there is, you know, flipping to your first question in terms of why is it that

00:07:52.780 people of other faiths recognize? I think they understand that, you know, people, we're not brains

00:07:59.820 on sticks. We're not bodies. We are whole people, body, soul, will, spirits. There is a spiritual dimension

00:08:08.020 to life. And truthfully, I suspect there are some people who try to deny that element, but the vast

00:08:14.900 majority of us, at one moment or another, come to face those questions. Who am I? What am I doing here?

00:08:22.480 Why does the world exist? Where am I going? And the offering of an answer to some of those

00:08:29.580 questions, even if you disagree, recognizes that dimension of life and I think resonates with,

00:08:36.100 especially with people of other faiths. Oh, that's a great segue because the next question

00:08:41.880 or one of the questions I wanted to get to, which we can go to right now, is, so, you know, you have

00:08:46.680 this sort of secular, I don't know if they're liberal or left or centrist, whatever it is, but they,

00:08:51.160 but they feel that we have to continue to take this separation of church and state all the way to

00:08:57.100 the end, get rid of any, any religious symbol in public life, any reference to religiosity,

00:09:03.420 Christianity. So, so, so, so total, you know, erasing of, of, of all these things from our society. 0.98

00:09:09.100 But, but, you know, what, what, what's left at that? I think there, we talked about this last time

00:09:14.560 you were on the show, but there's sort of a resurgence of interest, a growing appetite of young

00:09:18.260 people or new Canadians wanting to know more about the, the root of our, of our values and norms.

00:09:23.040 And I, I wonder if you could kind of try to address this question of, you know, what, how far can they

00:09:28.640 take this? What will happen if we just try to completely erase Christianity from our society? 0.97

00:09:33.980 What would that society look like? Well, ironically, as a person of faith and who has spent most of my

00:09:39.700 public life identified as a person of faith in public life bringing to bear that, I agree, there

00:09:48.200 certainly seems to be a coordinated effort, particularly from the left, but I would highlight

00:09:54.420 it's not just from the left. There are some on the right as well, who are, who really want to draw

00:09:59.720 that absolute line between what you believe, your values, your belief system, saying that's entirely

00:10:07.480 personal and somehow your public life can be just this neutral process, um, sort of thing. Well,

00:10:14.200 first of all, philosophically, that doesn't work. Um, I think we all understand there are first

00:10:19.980 principles from which you proceed, um, that apply in public life. And even that argument that the only

00:10:26.540 acceptable arguments in publics are those which are, um, new, you know, totally neutral and not based

00:10:33.480 on any, it's a, it's a logical fallacy in terms of that. I do understand in a pluralistic society

00:10:41.000 that there is an onus on those who are people of faith to communicate, not in the jargon of their

00:10:46.840 faith, but recognize the context in which they are and communicate their faith in a way that's

00:10:52.000 accessible to people who are not of their own tradition. Um, that, that there comes an obligation

00:10:57.080 for people of faith to communicate it in a way that's comprehensible. But I think at the core,

00:11:03.060 the question, and I think we're seeing this, especially with young people in our, in, in the

00:11:07.920 poll I just referenced, we talked about last time, uh, roughly 10% more of people under the age of 40

00:11:14.140 talked about there being a role for faith in public life than those who are over 40. Um, those most 0.94

00:11:20.540 likely to have attended a place of worship or read a sacred text are those under the age of 30.

00:11:24.800 Uh, there is, and I, I think the word you mentioned the word authenticity. I think that's at the heart

00:11:29.820 of it. I think people understand deep down that there are questions and that they have, and that

00:11:36.620 life is better lived when we can be open, honest, have civil, respectful discussions about the, the

00:11:42.420 most fundamental things, the things that are most important. And in fact, as we go through that

00:11:47.100 process, we in fact will create a flourishing society that's respectful for all. Excellent. Just talking

00:11:54.340 about what, what it is that Christians actually believe in. Cause I, I think there's a lot of

00:11:57.500 misinformation out there about the central tenants of the Christian doctrine. I know that

00:12:03.220 whenever it comes to the sort of legacy media and their depiction, uh, their depiction of Catholics

00:12:09.000 or Christians more broadly, they sort of tie it to, uh, intolerance or bigotry, uh, specifically

00:12:16.320 about maybe gay rights or these kinds of things. Do you think that the portrayal, the public portrayal,

00:12:22.020 the media portrayal of Christians is unfair? And if so, uh, you know, what, what, how would

00:12:28.060 you like to correct that record and how can Christians push back to, um, correct the record

00:12:33.760 about what they actually believe in?

00:12:35.640 Absolutely. Let me, let me provide two points of my answer. Back in the, um, 2019 election,

00:12:42.360 there was an aha moment where some, some journalist asked Andrew Scheer, the lead, then leader of the

00:12:48.620 conservative party, if he considered homosexuality to be a sin and he sort of got trapped and it was

00:12:53.080 a four day story. Had I been in that situation and asked, I would have asked the reporter, I'm happy

00:12:59.340 to answer that question, but first tell me, what do you mean by sin? Because the notion is that,

00:13:05.320 you know, Christians are somehow righteous and other people, non-Christians are sinners or something 1.00

00:13:10.480 of that, you know, the Christian teaching is that we are all sinners. Um, that's the, you know,

00:13:16.940 there, and in the sense, you know, there's a text in the Bible that even our prayers are to be prayed

00:13:21.340 of and our repentance is to be repented of. If sin is missing the mark of divine perfection,

00:13:27.040 everything I do, including reading my Bible and going to church falls short of the mark,

00:13:31.420 which is the essence of the Christian gospel that you don't rely on yourself. You rely on the

00:13:37.020 righteousness of Jesus Christ instead of yourself. Um, the substitutionary nature of Christ

00:13:44.480 Christ is at the heart of the Christian gospel. He paid for my sins and he lived the perfect life

00:13:49.360 that I'm not living. And so I go to heaven because of what he did, not because of what I do.

00:13:54.180 That's the core of the Christian message. That's the gospel. That's the good news.

00:13:58.960 And so there was a sense in which, you know, when, when people say is, is X, Y, or Z,

00:14:04.580 Z sin? Yes, it is. Everything I do falls short, but the good news is there is hope for everyone,

00:14:11.600 regardless of where you are. And I think, I think the temptation is to, when we talk about God in

00:14:19.640 public, to sometimes take these theological terms that have meaning, and then we turn them into

00:14:26.100 public and somehow, you know, the criminal is the sinner and the good citizen who votes and pays

00:14:31.300 their taxes is the righteous one. Well, that's not the biblical story at all. That's a misportrayal

00:14:37.460 entirely of what Christianity is about. The Christian message is, first of all, that every

00:14:42.920 person is a created image bearer of God. They have dignity and worth. And that doesn't matter what

00:14:48.420 ethnicity, what gender, what sexuality, whether you are the worst person who, you know, has the

00:14:56.020 criminal record of multiple life sentences, or you're the most pious person and competing with

00:15:01.340 Mothers of Teresa for sainthood. All of us bear the image of God. That gives us dignity and worth.

00:15:07.460 All of us have sinned. All of us fall short of the divine standard. And there's salvation available

00:15:13.740 to all of us through Jesus Christ. That's the Christian gospel.

00:15:18.620 Excellent. Okay. So we've sort of talked about Christianity on an individual level, on a personal

00:15:24.200 level, what it can do, the sort of deeper questions that it answers and existential questions that aren't

00:15:28.940 answered through the secular world, but are through the religious world. I want to talk a bit

00:15:33.300 about religious institutions and the roles, the role of Christian churches, what they do,

00:15:39.420 the role that they can play in society when it comes to building community, helping those who

00:15:44.680 are less well off. Do you think that churches should play a larger role? Do you think that they do

00:15:49.780 sufficient work? What would you like to see the church do that they don't do now, and perhaps

00:15:55.840 things that the government does that you believe that the church ought to do instead?

00:15:58.940 Well, let's start by just establishing what the church actually does. Religion in Canada is the

00:16:05.120 ninth largest institution. It's $67 billion of GDP. It's tied to religion and religious institutions.

00:16:12.300 About $30 billion of that are directly in terms of religious institutions. And there's about $37

00:16:19.280 billion of what we call a halo effect. Churches do a lot of counseling. They do a lot of care for

00:16:26.820 the poor in their communities. They clean up environments and neighborhoods in terms of youth

00:16:34.200 groups and all of those, the replacement costs. And we've done a study on this together with some

00:16:41.540 U of T economists and looking at the replacement costs of faith in Canada. For every dollar that is

00:16:50.520 spent on a religious charitable receipt from the federal government, $4.77 of public good. If the

00:16:59.100 churches weren't there, it would cost us almost five times as much to do what churches are already

00:17:04.780 doing. I think most people don't understand that aspect of it. That is actually just taking a look

00:17:11.300 at church. We're not extending it there fully to, for instance, religious schools, hospitals,

00:17:18.280 a lot of, a lot of our institutions, our universities used to, most of them started with a faith

00:17:25.820 background. Even hospitals, you know, Mount Sinai Hospital has a foundation attached to it. And it draws

00:17:36.280 from the whole public, but disproportionately the Jewish community that's paying for the MRI machine that

00:17:40.960 all of us are using. So the good effects of faith today and the extent to which it's a significant

00:17:49.000 part of our society is largely misunderstood or forgotten. So I would say, first of all, let's just

00:17:56.260 recognize what's happening. Is there more room? Absolutely. The example I like to use is in terms of

00:18:03.680 refugees. You know, there are about a hundred, what we call sponsorship agreement holders. They are

00:18:10.980 almost all faith-based organizations and they have the legal right to bring in sponsored refugees to

00:18:18.140 Canada. If you compare the record of refugees being brought into Canada under SAH agreements versus

00:18:24.260 government-sponsored refugees, the speed at which they come into the community, in which they get a job,

00:18:32.140 in which they're self-sufficient. There's lots of studies and lots of data out there, but typically

00:18:37.440 three, four, five times as fast. Typically, you know, within a year, a family sponsored by a faith

00:18:45.020 group is typically brought in a, you know, I'll just use the example, you know, from my own church

00:18:51.260 community in terms of we sponsored a refugee family. You know, there were businesses in the church who went

00:18:57.780 out of their way to right away hire this family. There were, you know, the church already has meals

00:19:05.560 on wheels and all of the rest. There was the support in terms of English as a second language.

00:19:10.380 There was somebody to drive the family around in terms of introducing them. All of this happens.

00:19:15.480 None of it's measured in GDP. None of, no dollars change hands anywhere along the way. But within,

00:19:21.660 you know, six to nine months, this family's self-sufficient. And they're not at present going

00:19:27.540 to our church, and that's not the point. You know, you have many churches who have sponsored Muslims

00:19:33.060 and others. They bring them to Canada because these are people in need, and they want to show the love

00:19:40.440 of Christ to their neighbor. And that's their motive. And, you know, a significant portion of our

00:19:47.480 refugee settlement and the most effective part of our refugee settlement happens in that sort of

00:19:52.700 local community. And I think it's reasonably intuitive. We all can understand that how much

00:19:59.220 easier it is for any group, even if you're not part of a faith, but, you know, Rotary clubs, some of

00:20:05.000 those other service clubs do similar sort of work. When you have these people who are networked,

00:20:09.580 when you need the plumber, you don't have, you know, somebody who is, is there and we all pitch in and

00:20:14.700 we all make it happen? And there is the building of a sense of community. There is a building of a

00:20:19.440 sense of belonging. And these people just adapt in much, much better way. And I think whether it's

00:20:25.180 addictions, you know, a lot of churches, Alcoholics Anonymous, most frequently are meeting in church

00:20:33.360 basements, you know, drug rehab support groups for various people in crisis of various sorts.

00:20:39.780 The number of those sorts of organizations that make life more livable for Canadians and not just

00:20:46.480 Canadians who are of faith, all Canadians, the doors are almost always open and welcome to everyone.

00:20:53.720 And that's, you know, every faith tradition has an element of being invitational. And so I think much

00:21:02.140 of that story is untold. And I think it's a significant part of the social fabric that we call Canada today.

00:21:08.420 Absolutely, right. I'll just add to that because I know that so many preschools and daycares in this

00:21:14.620 country are operated out of churches. And even, even, even more than that, in my, in my neighborhood

00:21:19.820 in Toronto, there is a, a mom and tot group that operates out of a church basement and will pre-COVID

00:21:26.200 anyway. And interestingly, I would go and I would meet women that were Jewish, women that were Hindu.

00:21:32.140 To them, it wasn't, it wasn't about the religious, you know, place of worship. It was about a place to go

00:21:38.740 for community. And, and that, and that is what so many people turn to for those kinds of facilities

00:21:44.740 as well. That just happened to be right in the middle of neighborhoods. I want to end on a final

00:21:49.520 note talking about Christmas. And I know that a lot of the criticism that maybe more conservatives or

00:21:55.840 maybe people on the right have when it comes to Christmas is that it's become too, too focused on

00:22:01.300 consumerism, too, too focused on capitalism, and that it's, it's been taken away from the sort of

00:22:08.760 original purpose of the holiday, what you talked about at the beginning, this sort of salvation of,

00:22:13.280 of mankind. I wonder if you could comment on that. I'm, I'm finding myself in a precarious situation

00:22:19.660 because my son is almost three, he's starting to kind of understand things, and I, I'm sort of a

00:22:25.300 situation of, you know, how, how much of the sort of commercial Christmas do I, do I give him, um, versus

00:22:30.980 the sort of more religious, uh, themes. And, and I think it must be hard for, for every parent to sort of

00:22:35.960 deal with. So, I, I wonder what, uh, where you stand on that argument and what, what you think, uh, parents

00:22:40.960 can do. Yeah, and there are, um, wide ranges of traditions, um, in terms of, you know, family traditions,

00:22:48.860 ethnic traditions, um, you know, I come from post-World War II Dutch immigrant family, um, in, in the

00:22:57.020 Netherlands, the, the gift-giving part of Christmas is sort of focused on December the 5th, and December

00:23:02.980 the 25th is a religious celebration in which the focus is very much on, um, on church and Christmas

00:23:10.160 concerts, and, and that sort of thing, and the religious side. So, they, you know, within the Dutch

00:23:14.860 tradition, they have really separated out the gift-giving and the Santa Claus part of it, uh, from

00:23:20.800 the religious and made a clear distinction. Many others haven't, and I think, you know, each family

00:23:25.980 and, and, and that finds its own way. Um, there can be meaning and symbolism in the giving of gifts,

00:23:31.960 and, um, you know, I, I'm certainly not going to be a Scrooge here and say let's, um, but I think

00:23:37.880 the celebration of the day is not, you know, the giving of gifts points to a much greater gift

00:23:43.200 that is given by God to the world and finding ways to keep that as central as we can. Um, you know,

00:23:49.640 for, for my family, uh, for generations, it always, uh, Christmas has always involved a extra church

00:23:56.700 service on Christmas Day in addition to the Sunday churches services around a series of concerts. Uh,

00:24:02.940 so, you know, it's not unusual within the, you know, week of Christmas to have three, four, five

00:24:09.120 different religious Christmas events that even just from a time occupation, uh, when they become

00:24:16.100 a priority, well, then you fit the, the gift giving and all that in between. Um, you know,

00:24:22.100 if you build everything around the gift giving and you put the religion in between, well, then it

00:24:26.260 takes seconds. So I think those are very personal choices that people have to make, but I think

00:24:30.760 there are conscious strategies that families can use in terms of saying we are going to make a

00:24:35.360 priority of the religious component of Christmas and finding the appropriate ways, um, to celebrate

00:24:41.760 that and to remind ourselves and to pass that on to our children. And, uh, when that becomes the

00:24:47.180 essential and you, you time some of the other stuff around it, you're also sending the message

00:24:51.980 of what's important. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all of the work

00:24:57.500 you do over at Curtis. Can you, can you give a little plug for Curtis to help tell folks about what

00:25:01.700 you do and, and, and if they want to support, uh, your work, how they can do that? Yeah, well,

00:25:06.140 Curtis is a, uh, uh, think tank. We have seven areas of research, so we do all this stuff you

00:25:11.580 would expect the think tank to do in terms of policy research in a number of areas, um, work in

00:25:16.700 economics, health, education, religious freedom, volunteering. Um, cartus.ca is the website. Uh, we just

00:25:25.380 crossed our 20, um, our, our 20th anniversary. There are literally millions of words of reports

00:25:32.640 and, um, stuff that's on the website, but we really try to inspire hope. We try to put forward

00:25:40.840 positive solutions to some of today's challenges that is informed by 2000 years of Christian social 0.75

00:25:46.520 thought, but takes very practical applications on the, um, on the issues that, uh, that we face

00:25:52.240 together today. And, um, yeah, cartus.ca, learn all about us. Uh, there is a donate button if you

00:25:59.260 want, but, um, that's not the first thing we're, we're looking for. We're looking for engagement.

00:26:04.320 We're looking for, um, telling a story and engaging in honest civil disagreement and, uh, discussion even

00:26:10.600 with those who, who disagree and, um, having a constructive, um, discussion that leads to a better

00:26:17.020 Canada. Excellent. Thank you so much, Ray, and Merry Christmas to you and your family.

00:26:22.240 And blessed Christmas to you and to all your listeners. Thanks for having me.

00:26:26.160 All right. Thank you so much for tuning in. I'm Kenneth Malcolm, and this is The Kenneth Malcolm Show.

The Candice Malcolm Show - December 22, 2021

Why do Christians get criticized and denigrated, ignored and erased？

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