00:00:00.000I'm this bonus episode of the Charlie Kirk Show, my conversation with Tim Poole and a self-described libertarian socialist vouch, V-A-U-S-H.
00:00:11.000This episode is brought to you advertiser-free, but I want to just thank Tim Poole at timcast.com.
00:00:18.000That's TimCast.com for hosting this conversation and for giving us permission to post this episode in its entirety.
00:00:49.000It's an issue I care a lot about vaccines, but you'll see that just tonally, that it was probably a little bit more excitable than I should have been.
00:00:57.000And then throughout the episode, I think I really make some strong points and ask some questions out of Vouch, but I tried my best to have civil discourse with somebody I fundamentally disagree on almost everything.
00:01:07.000And I hope that this conversation can be a little bit of a tool to show your children, maybe show you, if you are a high school or college student, that you can have conversations with people that you disagree with.
00:02:39.000His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
00:02:47.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:03:00.000Is critical race theory the biggest threat to America, or is it at least a threat to America?
00:03:06.000Well, there's a lot of questions around that.
00:03:08.000Obviously, you guys know my position on this to a certain degree, but there's a lot of other issues we need to talk about.
00:03:13.000One of the biggest stories right now is that New York has imposed a, we'll call it a, I don't want to say limited, but it's a vaccine mandate for indoor activities, entertainment performances.
00:03:25.000And Bill de Blasio said the goal here is to encourage people, mostly young people, to get the vaccine.
00:03:31.000That means if you want to go to the movie theaters, if you want to engage in normal activities like at bars, you have to have a vaccine passport.
00:03:39.000Now, why do I bring up critical race theory?
00:03:41.000Well, for one, you know the title of this video.
00:03:42.000We're going to have a conversation, a political debate or discussion about this.
00:03:46.000But there is a question some people have brought up due to the low level of vaccination among the black community and how that will disproportionately affect people and whether or not this will be truly equitable.
00:03:55.000But today, the bigger thing we're doing is not just about the news.
00:03:59.000It's about a conversation with two prominent individuals in politics.
00:04:02.000We've got Charlie Kirk, who I'm sure most of you know.
00:04:05.000Do you want to just briefly introduce yourself?
00:04:48.000I'm going to be switching like a crazy person.
00:04:50.000And hopefully tonight goes really well and we all learn something new.
00:04:53.000And before we jump in, head over to Timcast.com, become a member to get an ad-free experience and exclusive access to members-only segments of this show.
00:05:01.000And I guess I wasn't initially planning on it, but I guess everyone's cool to do a member segment after the show, and we'll find something fun to talk about.
00:05:08.000So, you know, we'll see how it plays out.
00:06:03.000So I'm curious if either of you wants to jump in with your thoughts on mandates, what would happen if they came here, if you're for or against them.
00:06:10.000Look, there are elements of mandates that I can agree with.
00:06:12.000We've already set standards for other things like the MMR vaccine, very basic standard vaccines that we expect everyone to get before they can go to school, travel.
00:06:21.000And I think for the most part, that's worked.
00:06:22.000We've eradicated plagues from the world.
00:06:25.000With regards to COVID, since this is an ongoing pandemic, we need to focus on approaches that are effective and that don't ostracize or exacerbate tensions.
00:06:33.000With regard to the Australian situation, it's not something I'm extensively familiar with, but generally speaking, I don't think that cracking down on protests is going to be an effective way to incentivize people to get vaccinated.
00:06:43.000What's happening in New York might be, but my main issue with it is that I'm not entirely sure how they expect people to still have their vaccination card.
00:06:51.000I know that there's been some confusion from the beginning as to whether or not you should keep that.
00:06:55.000I know people have thrown theirs away.
00:07:58.000This is trying to create a two-tiered system where if you don't make the proper medical decisions, you're not able to go to Broadway shows or go into restaurants, even when the efficacy of this vaccine is questionable at best.
00:08:12.000We see that in Israel, an 85% vaccinated country that's about to lock down again.
00:08:16.000And most of the new cases are from vaccinated patients, not unvaccinated patients in Israel.
00:08:29.000I think we actually have a story wrote on Timcast.com that our view of the lockdowns is that it's alarmism because a new study from the Public Health of England found the Pfizer vaccine is 96% effective after two doses at staving off the Delta variant, and AstraZeneca was 92%.
00:08:45.000I can probably agree it's alarmism, but it's enough of an alarm for the public health leaders to undermine the argument that the vaccine is a solution to what would possibly satisfy the public.
00:08:55.000I mean, I was against the lockdowns in the first place.
00:08:57.000Let me be very clear when we were 1,000 deaths a day, not 334.
00:09:02.000First of all, it's experimental in the sense that there was an expedited process for its release, but there have been full and extensive studies taken on the safety and effectiveness of these vaccines.
00:09:10.000The reason why the FDA study hasn't been finished, the reason why it hasn't been fully vetted, isn't because they're looking for long-term health effects.
00:09:17.000It's because they're determining the extent to which it protects you over a long period of time.
00:09:21.000Ergo, the fact of the matter is, by all available data, this is undeniably much safer to get the vaccine.
00:09:30.000Wait, a couple things because you said a few things there.
00:09:32.000There are some instances where areas have more people being infected if they're already vaccinated.
00:09:37.000But if you take a look at like, this is like data mining.
00:09:40.000If you take a look at the broader statistics, especially here in America, the number of people who have gotten breakthrough cases is something like 0.003% of people who have been vaccinated.
00:09:54.000In spite of the fact that fewer and fewer people are remaining unvaccinated, the vaccinated stay relatively healthy.
00:09:59.000And not only do they get infected way less often, they also suffer far fewer severe symptoms.
00:10:06.000Their hospitalization rates have plummeted and their deaths are incredibly low compared to people who are unvaccinated.
00:10:12.000This is by all means an effective vaccine.
00:10:14.000What's your opinion of Johnson and Johnson, the FDA saying that it might cause a rare nerve disease?
00:10:19.000Yeah, that's something that, first of all, when you take a look at that, you have to recognize that even if that was the case, which the FDA says it is.
00:10:49.000Now, even if that claim is the case, it would remain the fact that unless the extent of that potential nerve damage is just apocalyptically severe, that the effects of getting COVID would still be far, far worse than the potential side effects of that vaccine.
00:11:02.000However, if you were to say, let's say worst case, you know, Johnson and Johnson, it's not viable.
00:11:13.000We're talking hundreds of millions of people who have either been protected against the vaccine in part, or if they get it, or sorry, against the virus, or if they get it, their effects, their symptoms are much, much, much more miserable.
00:11:25.000So I just want to just kind of just play into the irony here that I'm the one criticizing the pharmaceutical companies and you're the ones that are, you're the one defending.
00:11:33.000I just think that's I think it's delicious.
00:12:44.000But whether or not that's on the table, and I can't just make that happen when we're talking strictly about the effectiveness of the vaccine, it seems so.
00:12:52.000That's not a praise of the capitalist industry behind it.
00:13:09.000What do you have to say about VARES, though?
00:13:10.000What do you have to say about the vaccine adverse event reporting system that says, well, over 7,000 people experience death after getting the vaccine?
00:13:29.000Yeah, VARES is a government website that physicians or individuals can submit complaints or concerns after an adverse event report from a vaccine.
00:13:38.000Since you cannot win in court against a vaccine production company, then they go through some process where the government then can distribute some form of remedy if you had an adverse event reaction.
00:13:50.000And researchers like it because if you take a vaccine or you get some other procedure, any medical drug done, you can report the effects there.
00:13:57.000And it can be a way of gathering sort of aggregate data concerning the effects of these potential treatments.
00:14:04.000The problem is researchers don't use this as a bulletproof way of determining the outcome or effect of anything because they're literally just unvetted online submissions that anybody can put in.
00:14:14.000So I think that's I ask you because I want to know, how do you arrive at the conclusion that how many people did you say it's VARES's own data is 7,000 plus, and most of which, by the way...
00:15:58.000I would say that if you have a mass vaccination program, which gives out 330 million doses or so, and then people start saying, Hey, I got the vaccine, then this happened, theirs isn't here to say it is or isn't.
00:16:10.000They're here to say, Can we find a pattern in this?
00:16:11.000And I think 7,000 suggests there may be one at the very least.
00:16:15.000I'm not a scientist, so I can't stress that.
00:16:17.000I will also say, however, to Charlie, Gillian Baer syndrome, which I'm probably pronouncing wrong, it's a side effect.
00:16:43.000So, of course, you know, if you, if you have something very different from any other vaccination we normally do because we're not having everyone do it all at once.
00:17:16.000I have gotten other vaccines in my life.
00:17:18.000So I want to be able to have the right to say no to that.
00:17:21.000So the American system, Constitution, kind of like the tradition, is to be able to have people have nuance, preferences, and individualism.
00:17:29.000When it comes to these sort of complex issues, not saying you can't go to a restaurant because we want you to take experimental medicine.
00:17:37.000First of all, if we're speaking to legal rights, the Supreme Court found over a century ago that when it came to vaccinations, this was a special exemption from some people's rights to 1904 in that one.
00:17:50.000And there's a reason why, because, of course, when you choose not to take the vaccine, you contribute to the removal of others' freedoms.
00:17:57.000You do have a freedom to not or to take a vaccine, but I think other people should have the freedom to not grow up in a world ridden by plague.
00:18:05.000And with the way this disease, COVID, mutates with time, as all diseases do, inevitably, if it continues to circle the world long enough, and this is an international problem, not just an American one, new strains will develop, which will slowly ebb at the effectiveness of this set of vaccines.
00:18:27.000With all of that being said, just to speak to VARS, VARS is an incredibly effective system for locating and roughly attributing concerns related to the effects of drugs.
00:18:37.000The problem is that there are several elements to this disease that make it really difficult to pinpoint anything specific.
00:18:44.000Second, the two of which being A, hundreds of millions of people vaccinated.
00:18:47.000That is a huge range to pull data from.
00:18:50.000And B, the propagandist fear campaign about an incredibly effective vaccine process that may lead people to misinterpret the vaccine.
00:18:57.000I just want to get a real clarification to vaccines.
00:19:00.000Just quick clarification: are you for mandating the COVID-19 vaccine?
00:19:28.000No, I think that's a more difficult document.
00:19:29.000I just want to make sure we weren't having misunderstanding.
00:19:32.000No, I think that's more of a reasonable answer.
00:19:34.000I'm just curious, just on the vaccine topic in general.
00:19:38.000Are you concerned by Dr. Malone coming out, who literally invented the mRNA vaccine and says that there's a dangerous spike protein involved, and he encourages people to think twice before getting it?
00:20:26.000What makes the current retinue of vaccines that we take, the mRNA process, different from other MRNA?
00:20:31.000It doesn't involve the spike protein, according to him, the same composition as like the measles, mumps, rubella-type vaccine or the chickenpox vaccine.
00:20:39.000The process wasn't developed back during the MMR vaccine.
00:20:41.000Totally, but some of them are getting updated for the more mRNA type technology.
00:20:45.000But if he wasn't involved in the production of these modern vaccines, how could he possibly have any comment on any of the rigors or tests that were invented this type of vaccine?
00:20:52.000I'm just saying, does that bother you?
00:20:53.000Do you think he's just like a fear propagandist and like no, he may well have concerns, but those are concerns that I would rather have addressed by the scientific community rather than with respect to you and myself, YouTubers.
00:21:37.000I just want to say, it's not just about the WHO.
00:21:39.000We are talking about a unified effort on the part of virtually every country on earth to get a hold of the vaccines that us Americans are privileged to have.
00:21:47.000This isn't some pharmaceutical Dr. Fauci push that wasn't broadly supported by any of the relevant experts.
00:21:53.000In the mRNA field, which is not huge because it's a very new development, internationally, there is a demand for these vaccines.
00:22:02.000I wanted to add, just based on what you had said, I can pull up Reuters.
00:22:05.000Their fact check is that vaccines are not, quote, cytotoxic.
00:22:09.000They go on to mention that Robert Malone, and they show the Brett Weinstein podcast.
00:22:14.000They show the Post, the FDA was alerted months ago that the spike protein and the COVID vaccines are cytotoxic, toxic to cells.
00:22:28.000Like you mentioned, you said, do you trust Fauci or Bert Weinstein?
00:22:31.000I don't know if there is a fact-based argument if you have the doctors you trust and the doctors you trust or the organizations you trust.
00:22:38.000It's a clash of who you believe to be honest.
00:22:40.000None of us have the credentials to just come up with these arguments on their own.
00:22:43.000There will always be bias in who we choose to believe.
00:22:45.000However, given the plurality of people seem to support the safety and the effectiveness of the vaccine and the fact that it doesn't take a virologist to notice that over half a million Americans have died of COVID, more than the combined death tolls of every war since World War I combined, including the Second World War in Vietnam.
00:23:01.000Those are things that I don't need to be a virologist to see.
00:23:06.000One of the issues that's brought up frequently, especially on Twitter, is that many of these COVID deaths are died with COVID, as it's brought up, where people would say something like it tends to be people who are over 70 or things like that.
00:23:17.000I'm only bringing that up, not to make the argument, but because you said, how would VARES know if these are actually related to the vaccine?
00:23:22.000I'd love to respond to that, if I may.
00:23:26.000Like age, it causes a breakdown in other vital functions that then their death can be attributed to such.
00:23:33.000So, for example, of the many things that people die, it's not really COVID.
00:23:36.000It's just that COVID blanks their entire system internally, and eventually something fails, something breaks, and they die.
00:23:43.000There were people claiming that there were deaths being spuriously attributed to COVID-19 very early on in this pandemic.
00:23:48.000But thankfully, we know that's not the case because if you take a look at the excess mortality numbers, the number of people who should die every year in the United States, because there's a very normal pattern, you know, normally with this many people in this country, we see an excess starting when COVID started that almost perfectly graphs on to the rising death waves of COVID.
00:24:07.000I mean, it perfectly tracks on to that.
00:24:09.000I just want to say for you, Charlie, I think, you know, the issue I see here is for me, it's, I can't trust or distrust.
00:24:27.000But to believe that there's like a nefarious effort or anything like that, ultimately what it comes down to is, in my opinion, having a trusted medical professional that you can consult with.
00:24:36.000And I think there could be an argument that if you're over the age of 70, that this vaccine might be a really good idea for you.
00:24:42.000However, to mandate it for schools and for colleges, when these are highly complex medical decisions, that's where I'm going to push back against it.
00:24:50.000Well, we're going to go ahead and do that.
00:25:14.000Well, because, well, hydroxychloroquine studies have found it largely ineffective.
00:25:17.000There was, I believe, a French study that stopped when people started dying of heart failure.
00:25:22.000I think the only reason the right dies in this hill is because Trump mentioned it.
00:25:24.000I don't think there'd be a push for it otherwise.
00:25:27.000The vaccines are the effective way of getting mass populations inoculated.
00:25:30.000And while it is true that most of the people who die are ancient, the fact remains that people experience long-term side effects from getting COVID, even if they survive.
00:25:39.000I know people who are in their 30s, and me, a blistering 27-year-old myself, I'm not especially worried, but I've heard them talk about how much harder it is for them to climb up flights of stairs.
00:25:48.000I know that erectile dysfunction, fellas, is one of the listed potential side effects of getting COVID, even young, healthy, no other problems.
00:25:55.000It is true that death is most comorbid with age and pre-existing conditions, but still, and that's not even to speak of the COVID variants.
00:26:05.000I mean, right now we're on, what, Delta?
00:26:07.000But if it keeps cycling around the world, let it go for another year.
00:27:02.000Well, so, man, I think the real issue, for the most part, is just mandatory.
00:27:09.000Well, I just also have another question.
00:27:11.000Do you think that there might be any bad motives behind these four companies, AstraZeneca, Moderna, Pfizer, and Johnson ⁇ Johnson, considering they are big pharma and they pursue profits, which generally as a libertarian socialist, you're skeptical of.
00:27:26.000Do you think maybe they might have nefarious motives?
00:27:28.000Oh, their intentions are reprehensible.
00:27:30.000They have for many years made money off the backs of American deaths.
00:27:33.000The opioid crisis is almost entirely attributable to them.
00:27:37.000Yeah, I mean, no moral love for these companies.
00:27:40.000If this could be, and by the way, the mRNA process was developed through public funding.
00:27:43.000It was, you know, an effort invested in by the collective good, something I'm generally supportive of.
00:27:48.000When it comes to these companies themselves, and when I say, you know, go get your Pfizer vaccine, whatever, please do not mistake this or anything else that I say for an endorsement of the practices of these companies.
00:27:57.000It is only through cruel twist of fate and the economic system we live in that they are the ones put in a position to handle this.
00:28:04.000But it was the workers at those companies, not the CEOs, who did the work.
00:28:07.000I'm just curious, does that ever make you stop short and say, huh, maybe they're trying to massively inoculate us on a vaccine that might not be as effective to try to pursue profit, not well-being?
00:28:18.000Does that ever enter into your consideration?
00:28:22.000It's a consideration you should take about anything produced by any company that's run for profit, which is everything.
00:28:29.000Basically, every need in American society need is tempered by the knowledge that there are people out there who are paid very large salaries to sell it to you.
00:28:37.000This is the case for everything we do, everything we eat.
00:28:39.000Every time you run down Main Street, or in my case, I guess, you know, the boulevards in Los Angeles, you're seeing the protracted efforts of a billion-dollar industry to make sure you want things they're selling.
00:28:57.000And there was probably a protracted effort on the part of these companies to make sure they were the first, and they probably took every dirty advantage they could.
00:29:03.000But with the data available, I have to still, much as I would say, hey, I would prefer eating McDonald's food to starvation.
00:29:11.000I have to say this is probably still something we should be doing.
00:29:15.000Do you want to do, I don't want to stay, it's been 20 minutes.
00:29:20.000I actually think this has been really constructive and not like that, you know, inflammatory.
00:29:25.000I think that deep down you have this kind of urge that I'm already there where maybe they want this thing to go on for another decade to go make another $100 billion.
00:29:35.000And maybe the cheap drug of hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin might work better than they might think.
00:30:00.000It can be used for the collective good.
00:30:02.000And I would unironically actually trust it more in the hands of our ineffective, bloated government than I would the sociopaths who run it currently.
00:30:09.000So I'll wrap this up by saying, always talk to your doctor.
00:30:36.000We're just asking questions whether it works or not.
00:30:38.000So that's why I think it's really important because I think there are, I got to be honest, in regards to ivermectin, people have been eating horse paste that they sell.
00:30:47.000I looked up what the FDA says about it.
00:31:53.000There's the critical race theory that I know of, which is a highly esoteric, essentially elective class that you can take in some law schools that teaches you a variety of incredibly eclectic legal theories that I, some of which I like and some of which I think I disagree with.
00:32:07.000And then there's the critical race theory that people like Christopher Ruffo have been trying to push, a sort of catch-all term to describe all anti-racism.
00:32:14.000We see these anti-CRT bills being put through straight legislators, and a lot of them don't even mention critical race theory.
00:32:20.000They mention stuff that's been boilerplate anti-racist theory for like two centuries.
00:32:26.000If I think that academia is to an extent sacred, of course, all the good things in our society now were born in the halls of academia.
00:32:32.000The Enlightenment, our democracy, the fair trial that we enjoy if we're arrested.
00:32:37.000These were things that were originally considered to be the crackpot initiatives of academics.
00:32:40.000And only through the respect of those ideas have we arrived at, well, what we have today.
00:32:45.000So if there are problems within academia, I would have them solved in academia, not through the big hand of government reaching in and censoring everyone who says something that disagrees with some political party.
00:32:55.000So a point of clarification, you don't believe that critical race theory is in schools.
00:32:59.000I think that maybe there are ideas which overlap with critical race theory, but there's always going to be overlap between academic ideas.
00:33:06.000I mean, you know, I drank water, so did Hitler, one of those type situations.
00:33:11.000I think you're coming at it in good faith where you're technically correct here that the super academic way of defining critical race theory is not being taught to fourth graders, right?
00:33:23.000With that being said, there are, it's almost like saying, you know, we're not teaching advanced geometry to fourth graders, but we are teaching them, you know, very basic math, right?
00:33:33.000We'll get them the Euclidean geometry.
00:33:35.000So the very basics of this are definitely in schools.
00:33:38.000And there's many examples of this, right?
00:33:40.000The National Education Association literally came out in their press release and said that they are going to push for, and their word was critical race theory.
00:33:49.000Just so we're clear, they use that term, right?
00:33:53.000That's not James Lindsay, who are good friends of mine.
00:33:55.000That's the National Education Association, right?
00:33:58.000And I think they might even be talking about something different than the Delgado theory of critical race theory, right?
00:34:05.000And so what I want to try to do here, Tim, is we can talk about critical race theory as an academic theory, or we could use a filler term like wokeism, which is more like racial justice, which I actually think would probably be, you know, we can call it racial justice and meet in the middle.
00:34:19.000I mean, I really feel like there are probably a four-digit number of people in America who are studied on actual critical race theory.
00:35:03.000And I just think that discussion is so unhelpful when Joy Reed and Christopher Ruffo are screaming at each other and Joy Reed is saying like it's not being taught anywhere, Christopher Rufo.
00:35:12.000So yes, it is, when in reality, they're both right.
00:35:15.000They're just talking about two completely different things.
00:35:53.000What I will say, though, about to give credit to Christopher Ruffo is that this is all kind of downstream from the conversation that Marcuse and Delgado started.
00:36:03.000But just one thing, though, since we're operating under the blanket wokeism, which is really broad term, let's talk about like specific ideas because I'm sure there are some of them that I can provide a good defense for, and some of them are.
00:36:18.000I think that I don't think they're like explicitly harmful in the same way that traditional segregation is, but I also think that it incentivizes bad types of socialization where the way that you get a reprieve from the faults of society is to find comfort in people of your own race.
00:36:34.000Maybe that incentivizes some bad stuff.
00:36:36.000In my university, we had safe spaces, but you know what they were?
00:36:39.000They were like chilled coffee break rooms behind like Latin.
00:37:26.000And because of the way generational wealth transfers from father to son or mother to either to anyone to their children, yeah, caught me there.
00:37:35.000Unfortunately, we still see the consequences of that borne out.
00:37:37.000You can actually look county by county.
00:38:44.000You can put money into that community, but there's been research done on how long a dollar stays in a black neighborhood as opposed to a white neighborhood.
00:38:50.000And if a black neighborhood, all of the businesses are owned by corporate boards that are all majority white, eventually the money filters out and you get a very temporary boost in living situation, not much long-term structural change.
00:39:01.000I'm a big fan of structural reparations, not based on race, but rather based on targeting neighborhoods that need it the most.
00:39:07.000Some of these neighborhoods are like white.
00:39:09.000I passed through some of them on my way out from Ronald Reagan Airport.
00:39:12.000I can tell which parts of this country, you can see it in the bones of the neighborhood.
00:39:17.000And I think that a new proper reparations project, a new deal, a new new deal even, would go a long way.
00:39:24.000Well, so you're saying not even based on race.
00:39:26.000I think that we should recognize that this is largely a racial project because unfortunately poverty and race are really intertwined in this country.
00:39:33.000But in terms of applying it, I think that it would be much more healthy if we treated it like a collective effort to bring up the lowest sort of echelon of our economic.
00:39:42.000So I want to ask you, Charlie, would you agree with a program that was in, how do I describe this?
00:39:50.000Explained as reparations, but was not based on race, went to people based on class and neighborhood so that it could help Latinos and white people and Asians and everybody.
00:39:58.000First of all, I'm against reparations.
00:40:00.000I just don't like the word because it kind of implies this intergenerational type guilt or allowance that I kind of reject.
00:40:07.000And I'm happy to build that out further.
00:40:10.000Do I agree that the question is mostly class?
00:40:14.000And I think that Vausch is hitting on something.
00:40:16.000And I think that you're saying that it's inherently racial.
00:40:20.000I really want to explore that with you because I think that's interesting.
00:40:23.000I think you're wrong, but I think that's interesting, where I think the racial thing is actually being used to distract people like you and I from actually talking about what's really happening here, which is a small group of people getting a lot richer while normal people get poor.
00:40:36.000And I think the racial thing is being used as this distraction tool to throw smokescreen in the middle while we're talking about something that we're never really going to have consensus on when the true struggle right now is mainly economic.
00:41:02.000Maybe that would be the most direct interpretation of generational reparations.
00:41:06.000But in my mind, the reason why it's important to recognize the racial issue here is that the nature of class divides in this country is cut into racial policy prior to the Civil Rights Act.
00:41:18.000The redlining that took place, lines which still remain not in law, but in practice, led to very distinct, I mean, sometimes, you know, one side of the highway is nice and the other side of the highway, I mean, a legitimately.
00:42:04.000Very clear to say I'm not from Chicago.
00:42:05.000I grew up in Beverly Hills, which is close, though, to West Hollywood in Koreatown, and the lines are clear as day.
00:42:12.000The reason I say that, though, about the racial project, is that because explicit discrimination is no longer in the law, we've pretty much wiped that out, with the exception of some, I guess, edge cases.
00:42:24.000The project of systemic racism or the existence of systemic racism is something which is carried through class by inertia.
00:42:31.000It isn't something you can explicitly legislate along anymore.
00:42:34.000I mean, obviously, nobody's out there passing laws like black people can't do this.
00:42:39.000But instead, the consequences of slavery and of second-class citizenship for black people left unaddressed a wound left to Fester that unfortunately can't really heal itself inertially unless we do something specific.
00:42:53.000So the issue with that argument is that the more that we intervened in the black community, it actually had the opposite effect.
00:43:00.000And Thomas Soule probably has done the best research in literature on this.
00:43:10.000He actually lived through this, right?
00:43:11.000He lived through the black renaissance in the 40s and the 50s, where redlining was a legitimate problem.
00:43:18.000So is yellowlining, by the way, against Italians and against Jews.
00:43:22.000Nowhere nearly as bad, but there were other degrees of discrimination based on ethnicity and cultural background.
00:43:28.000And the black community, especially, you know, the area really well in the south of Chicago, right near the Chicago Stockyards, the black community almost had this rallying cry where they were being discriminated against everywhere and they kind of collectivized their purchasing power and they saw their incomes increase actually at a higher rate than white Americans in the 40s and 50s and early 60s.
00:43:50.000You heard this argument many times and you probably disagree with it, but it's just true, is that the moment that we all of a sudden de-emphasized fathers being in the home and subsidized fatherlessness, we saw all these other trends increase.
00:44:04.000So in the 19, right before the Civil Rights Act passed, about 24% of black children were born without a father.
00:44:30.000It could be the cocaine thing, which, you know, is a common issue.
00:44:35.000It could be operations of all these things.
00:44:37.000But a 40-point increase, I would point to a culture of fatherlessness, really bad government-run public schools, and then subsidizing behavior that isn't good.
00:44:47.000So there are a few things that I can agree with you on.
00:44:50.000First of all, having two people in your house to raise you is pretty much essential.
00:44:57.000While I don't believe in shaming single parents, even if their single-parentedness is bad decision-making, it's still good.
00:45:05.000In this economy, one parent, honestly.
00:45:07.000But with that being said, there has been research shown that the rate of black fatherlessness is somewhat over-exaggerated, in large part because that number only applies to married fathers.
00:45:21.000It turns out when you account for unmarried black couples taking care of their kids, the numbers actually rise to those just, I think, just below white couples.
00:45:40.000For example, many welfare stipulations cut off with a shared income, which is only a few thousand dollars per year higher than the necessary cutoff for the single income, meaning that if you're a single mom, you can apply for the welfare just fine.
00:45:56.000But then if you get married or otherwise file jointly, you go above the cap for welfare.
00:46:01.000This is a horribly designed program, undeniably, and it incentivizes bad, destructive behavior.
00:46:06.000The best thing that we can do, we restructure the welfare system in this country.
00:46:14.000No, I don't think either of you benefit from it, I'm guessing.
00:46:18.000But we do collectively downstream from the increased economic potential of people who now have the money to afford daycare, proper childcare, get an education.
00:46:28.000In the long run, people in this country being richer enriches all of us.
00:46:34.000We find out what works and what doesn't, which welfare programs function, which don't, which types of economic revitalization function and which don't.
00:46:40.000And I legitimately believe that if we applied this, this country has the bones to be just a permanent economic beacon on the hill, just like a shiny example to the rest of the world.
00:46:51.000The bigger issue with the racial thing is that when you put some of these factors in even the present data, it doesn't pan out on racial lines, right?
00:47:00.000And this is where I think you'll agree because you just said two parents in the home is a good thing, which we totally agree on.
00:47:16.000I will say that if you look at the data from the government, that a white child being raised by a single mother is less likely to succeed by 10 independently picked metrics than a black child being raised by a mother and a father.
00:47:30.000And so maybe it's less about the skin color and more about the removal of parents and specifically fathers in the homes.
00:47:38.000Now, if you want to talk about a domestic Marshall Plan to go put fathers back in the home regardless of skin color, I will sign up for that in a second.
00:47:46.000With the right welfare, the right systems, I think people will tend to their own family.
00:47:49.000But that would then all of a sudden de-emphasize what you said earlier, where it says it needs to be on racial lines, where I say, no, no, it needs to be on nuclear family lines.
00:47:56.000Well, no, I think that the neighborhood revitalization should just be on like a sort of class assessment.
00:48:01.000I think that when we recognize this problem, though, there are so many trends when it comes to poverty that involve the discussion of race, you know?
00:48:31.000Let me just point out all these white guys sitting having debate over the black community.
00:48:35.000I just think that there is a lot of economic inequality.
00:48:38.000A lot of it's tied to race, but we don't need to turn this into some weird blood quantum issue where we go tracking down every black American and holding them under a microscope to see whether they get benefits.
00:48:56.000Well, because this is one of the issues I see, right?
00:48:59.000You see these conversations around, I don't know how you describe it because it's a variety of things.
00:49:06.000Wokeism is typically a catch-all term for some kind of ideology that involves anti-racism, which involves critical race theory, critical race practice.
00:49:14.000And you're seeing in schools specific curriculums where they say to kids, like, we had a book here.
00:49:20.000We had a book brought to us by one of these parents who's been going to these schools, and it was an anti-racist curriculum workbook where it asked you, asked children why they thought that black children felt bad about their skin color.
00:50:42.000So let's go to just piece, you know, Iber Mex Kendi, who's kind of one of the, you know, archangels of the wokeism movement.
00:50:50.000Beloved figure in the minds of conservatives and liberals.
00:50:53.000So Ibermax Kendi, and I'm paraphrasing, and you guys could pick up the quote, is that we need discrimination today because there is discrimination yesterday.
00:51:00.000That's the essence of the quote, right, Tim?
00:51:02.000Yeah, he said, the only solution for past discrimination is present discrimination, and the only solution for present discrimination is future discrimination.
00:51:12.000I think it's misguided in large part because I don't believe if there was some God who could just distribute all resources in a perfectly ordained way and did so at the snap of a finger, then maybe that would be a decent argument.
00:51:22.000In the real world, we have to go through politics.
00:51:24.000And any kind of discriminatory treatment under any circumstances, no matter how well-intentioned, is going to have adverse effects.
00:51:30.000So, with regard to what he said, there is a very charitable interpretation.
00:51:34.000And that charitable interpretation is discriminatory practices in the past necessitate favorable practices today, a way of bringing people up.
00:51:42.000My reparations argument, I mean, the poor in this country have always had it bad, at least worse than they could otherwise.
00:51:48.000That is essentially a version of that argument.
00:51:50.000Preferable treatment towards the poor.
00:51:51.000We do this with welfare, because there are systemic barriers keeping them from full participation along racial lines.
00:51:58.000I don't even know what that would look like.
00:52:00.000I don't even know how that would look good.
00:52:19.000There is one thing I want to say, though, and this is common in upper academia.
00:52:22.000And I know Igram sometimes gets brought into non-academic discussions, which I don't consider myself an academic, so I'm including myself in that.
00:52:30.000But sometimes I think these are fun to discuss, these ideas.
00:52:33.000What I noticed, at least in some of the classes that I took, the higher-end classes, you know, was that sometimes when you were presented ideas, they were presented not to have you agree with them, but rather to incentivize the greatest discussion.
00:52:45.000For example, I wasn't an economist, but I did learn about Karl Marx.
00:52:49.000Now, not many professors are actual Marxists, unfortunately.
00:52:53.000So when Marx was brought up in that context, it wasn't like, here's what you need to know, here's what you should believe.
00:53:00.000It was more, here are some ideas, radical and agreeable.
00:53:06.000And when I look at what Kendi has written, I think I don't often agree with some of the more radical propositions, but I do enjoy the process.
00:53:14.000And I don't think that's something which should warrant the state intervening to cut out those discussions.
00:53:43.000But he was a very radical socialist in some regard, but he really hit it perfectly when he said that this was the ideal of the American system.
00:53:54.000Do you see any downsides to getting three-year-olds just caring, not three-year-olds, third graders caring about the color of people's skin all the time?
00:54:01.000Well, I think depending on their environment, they might all men might already, whether they know it or not, in very implicit and subtle ways.
00:54:07.000We know from tests done, for example, on like little, little kids, like four-year-olds or whatever, that some elements of implicit racial bias already infect their thinking.
00:54:51.000Not saying that you should start to emphasize, organize what people look like, because therefore it means something that we're going to tell you.
00:55:00.000A great example is that this is the textbook definition of stereotyping, right?
00:55:05.000Is that when if you see a black person, you don't know their history.
00:55:08.000You don't know if they're the son of a Nigerian billionaire.
00:55:11.000You don't know if they're an immigrant from Turks and Caicos, and you don't know if they're the ninth generation descendant of slaves, right?
00:55:17.000There's been 2 million blacks that have come to America legally through the immigration process since 1980.
00:55:23.000So, this sort of hyper-fixation on race, and I want to keep on getting back to this because I'm just curious, is do you think this is actually helpful when there actually might be stuff that 90% of the country agrees on?
00:55:35.000Do you think this actually might be a smokescreen tactic?
00:55:37.000Well, it really depends on what's being taught.
00:55:39.000So, here are some things I obviously don't want taught.
00:55:42.000One group is better than another, of course.
00:55:45.000Black people are like this, white people are like this.
00:57:17.000In the first draft from Thomas Jefferson.
00:57:18.000The Crown had enslaved people who had done nothing to offend the Crown, brought them to the states, and then were then offering them the freedom that was stolen from them to wage war against the colonists who had grievances.
00:57:32.000They promised the slaves when they moved southward.
00:57:34.000Jefferson took that out, and he did it because they felt, and this is according to historians, that without, I think it was South Carolina and Georgia, they would not have been able to win the Revolutionary War.
00:57:45.000And so they had to remove that, hoping they would stay in.
00:57:48.000Now, the reality is, let me just, I'll just say one more point.
00:57:52.000They thought they were going to lose anyway.
00:58:00.000An important factor here is that I believe it was the British Empire, actually, 1833 had abolished slavery in all of its territories.
00:58:08.000And it took the U.S. a little bit longer to do so.
00:58:10.000But I want to make sure I stress this issue for the start of the country was contentious and ultimately led to violence because from the beginning, as Charlie pointed out, most of the states had already abolished this.
00:58:22.000So it was like people were ready to fight from the beginning.
00:58:38.000There are probably tons of things out there I don't even know that might change my opinion in the future.
00:58:42.000But with that being said, while I recognize there were fine-bodied, hearted, and soul Americans who recognized slavery was a moral aberration from the get-go, one in every six Americans was owned.
00:58:55.000And while that may have been constrained to some of the states, it was still ultimately under the purview of the federal government to make decisions with regards to the legality and constitutionality of that.
00:59:05.000Now, some people, they get really defensive when this conversation comes.
00:59:09.000I'm not saying you guys, but some people, they do.
00:59:11.000And I think it's because they think I'm assigning some kind of moral worth to them now or to the country now or making some kind of broad prescriptive statement.
00:59:54.000Is that largely what we're seeing through school districts like Chicago and in Washington, D.C., and the entire California school system representing 10,000 schools and 6 million students?
01:00:08.000Yeah, is that it doesn't have that kind of nuance and complexity that you just presented, right?
01:00:13.000Where it's, let me just say this, is that part of the kind of archangel triumphant of the wokeism coalition is Nicole Hannah Jones, Robin D'Angelo, and Iber Max Kendi.
01:00:23.000And Nicole Hannah Jones in particular, right, the author of the 1619 project, she heretically says that America was founded on slavery, right?
01:01:47.000Sorry, I didn't mean to miss out on the particulars there.
01:01:49.000The only point that I'm making is that depending on whose lineage you follow, depending on the narrative that you tell, this is a very postmodern idea.
01:01:56.000And I would like to consider myself charitable to postmodernism, the idea that there are many ways you can describe the human experience, which I think we all believe to some extent.
01:02:05.000Depending on who you follow, you get very different ideas on what America is when America was founded, not in a legal sense, but in a conceptual sense, and who today holds the birthrights to which they were entitled.
01:02:19.000And these conversations should be had.
01:02:21.000They're worthwhile conversations to have.
01:02:23.000I've seen some of the curriculums in these schools.
01:02:25.000I find some of them a little bit objectionable.
01:02:27.000But to be perfectly clear, I found school curriculums objectionable for ages.
01:02:32.000About half of Americans believe in the lost cause myth, the idea that the North started the Civil War and it was over states' rights or whatever.
01:02:39.000That's believed by a large number of Americans.
01:02:42.000There are textbooks put out by Pearson in Texas that have been available to the people.
01:02:44.000There is some truth to that, by the way.
01:03:34.000And so let me tell you why people like myself are pushing for the bans of the 1619 project.
01:03:40.000Is that, first of all, it's just not true.
01:03:42.000It is not even charitably, in the most charitable reading, to use a word that you used, even remotely fair to the ethos or the founding of the country.
01:03:52.000It doesn't go to original source documents.
01:04:10.000And this is an important thing, which is what is education, right?
01:04:13.000So is education where we're supposed to, for third, fourth, and fifth, and sixth graders open up every single bad idea that's ever been discovered and have kids choose?
01:04:21.000Or are we trying to lead them towards something?
01:04:24.000Lead them towards having better developed character, lead them towards trying to find objective truth.
01:04:40.000The narrative we've told about the founding of this country has for a long time been deeply whitewashed.
01:04:45.000We talk about the founding fathers like they're heroes, and there is heroism in their lives, no denying that.
01:04:51.000And we often gloss over many of the horrors of this country.
01:04:54.000There are things that we've done, for example, that we would use as an incentive to forever despise other countries that nobody's even taught about.
01:05:03.000Like one I read recently, for example, was that we did mass chemical bathings, and I believe it was sterilizations of Hispanic people at the beginning of the 20th century moving up past the southern border because there were like these militias forming in towns near the border and they just did it because they had the de facto support of the local government as a way of discouraging their movement up.
01:05:24.000Now, the numbers involved in that are significant and I feel like, well, that's maybe not great for fourth graders, there could be more work done to talk about the faults with this country in addition to eulogizing its own.
01:05:37.000The question is, what's the goal, though, right?
01:05:40.000Is the goal to try to have young people graduate by the time of high school to be skeptical, apprehensive, and not very proud of the country, or eventually tell a true and patriotic story where you have people graduating that are thankful and have gratitude?
01:05:54.000That's the purpose of education when it comes to gratitude is not the purpose of education.
01:05:58.000Well, I think gratitude's a moral necessity.
01:06:01.000No, you should be grateful for the people in your life, but I will never be grateful to the state.
01:06:58.000I know where my family lives, and I'm loyal to them.
01:07:01.000When it comes to this country, though, this is a political and economic block, and I have only one concern, and it's that the people in this country live the best lives possible.
01:07:09.000Also outside the country, but I live here.
01:07:34.000And I want to get people, I want to get kids interested in the flaws in this country because that teaches them to grow up and care about them so hard they fix them.
01:07:43.000This is a great piece of disagreement.
01:07:45.000We have clarity, not agreement, which is obviously what we want, where I think that we should try to be developing and graduating kids with strong character that want to appreciate and protect a country and to try to be active against forces that wish to deconstruct it.
01:08:01.000Your goal, and that's we're just not going to persuade each other, is that you want to try to graduate activists that know the flaws and are willing to mobilize to try to fix them or to undo whatever system might be effectuating.
01:08:14.000As long as it's responsible and effective, yeah.
01:08:33.000But with all that being said, I have to wonder, is it not the prerogative, and I'm not assigning this to you, of tyrants to make sure that the children who graduate from their schools find no fault in the nations they're taught to love?
01:08:49.000See, I never said no fault, but you could be thankful for something and you can have a holistic view of something, understand that there were stumbles and there were missteps while also being pretty freaking proud of that something.
01:09:18.000Somebody commented, I think it was on Twitter, they said that when they went to school, they weren't taught about Black Wall Street or the Tulsa bombings and things like that.
01:09:26.000And that's proof or that shows that our schools are not teaching.
01:09:29.000And I was like, I was taught all those things in Chicago.
01:09:32.000We were taught about the Trail of Tears.
01:09:33.000We were taught about westward expansion.
01:09:35.000We were taught about the violation of treaties.
01:10:02.000I don't want to stop teaching kids that there are undeniable things they should be happy for.
01:10:08.000For example, every day that I worked before I was a YouTuber, you know, I thanked union activists back during the turn of the 20th century who gave us the five-day work week, the 40-hour work week, who ensured that we had proper standards for lunch breaks and what have you in this.
01:10:33.000Do you ever think that as an activist, as a progressive, a libertarian socialist, is there ever a point where the activism actually does much more harm than good and the preservation of what already exists actually should be desirable?
01:10:48.000I would say that's the case with black separatists.
01:10:51.000There are some people in this country, not all of them are black, of course, but who believe that the racial problems between white and black Americans are irreparable and that the best solution would be for black Americans to leave or at the very least to form separate enclaves within the system.
01:11:12.000Well, you were in the general area, but I guess the question is a heavy emphasis on activism for activism's sakes, mobilizing for grievances.
01:11:21.000What if actually what we have as a constitutional order is actually pretty awesome?
01:12:04.000Income mobility here, which is the measure for how effectively this country manages its meritocratic systems, you know, is higher in some European countries than it is here.
01:12:14.000The idea remains valuable to me, but I can't help but think maybe we could make it better.
01:12:18.000If making it better entails some highly destructive process that involves tearing down everything we've ever known and such, then I mean, eventually you have to do a risk-reward benefit, right?
01:12:27.000So what I'm trying to caution you about is that the people pushing CRT or wokeism, they don't have the same sort of nuance that you do.
01:12:36.000These are revolutionaries that want to tear down the system.
01:12:40.000I just think that everything has its time.
01:12:42.000You just had kind of a little bit more of a moderated answer.
01:12:45.000But how often do actual critical race theorists come on like all of the talk show circuits that end up I mean, we've had some, I mean, Joy Reid advocated for it, but the actual scholars.
01:13:32.000And put pretty simply, the majority of Americans broadly are progressive on these issues, support BLM, all these sort of broad cultural markers.
01:13:42.000So corporations and other large entities think we need to avoid a cancellation.
01:13:47.000We need to appeal to the business interests of this country.
01:13:49.000We need to do something to ingratiate ourselves to the majority opinion.
01:13:53.000So oftentimes, and they've done this for decades, by the way, is they find some consultants, they pay them $300,000 to come on over there.
01:14:04.000And Robin DiAngelo's job, first and foremost, is to convince everyone who hires her that she was worth that money.
01:14:09.000So is she going to come over there and write like a PowerPoint like, don't be racist, like, come on, you know, be cool?
01:15:41.000I think these corporations have been infiltrated by highly motivated activists, which you've said the education system, the goal should be to create activists that have really bad ideas.
01:15:52.000And I think they're putting America on a trajectory that I think you are even concerned about.
01:15:57.000Because you said that there are some sacrosanct ideas, right?
01:16:01.000The sacrosanct ideas are general, fair representation.
01:16:33.000You could say, oh, that's indefensible.
01:16:34.000Of course, I don't want to be unreasonable.
01:16:36.000But when you get Mark Milley coming out and talking about white rage, I thought his speech was lovely.
01:16:41.000It reminded me of those old Chinese philosopher generals.
01:16:45.000But you have people quitting the military over this stuff because they feel like they're.
01:16:50.000I've actually spoken with people who retired because they've been discriminated against on racial lines they don't like.
01:16:55.000And one guy I met said he was planning a lifelong career in the military and immediately got out because they implemented these policies of like white racial trainings.
01:17:03.000They were told that the symbols of America are no longer allowed to be displayed in private because they're extremely.
01:17:10.000Yeah, well, I can't speak to any of that.
01:17:12.000I haven't looked into the particulars of that.
01:17:15.000The only thing I want to say is that it feels like with Robin DiAngelo, we've seen this pattern for decades now.
01:17:19.000I don't think it has anything to do with infiltration.
01:17:21.000I think it's the big ups, the CEOs, the project managers, whatever.
01:17:26.000They know there's some broader political, social, cultural trend happening.
01:17:30.000And they think, who's someone we could get?
01:17:32.000And if you look up racial sensitivity training on Google or anywhere else, some names are going to pop up and we know which one comes up first.
01:17:40.000And they just hire that person because they've got money and they need to spend it before the end of the quarter so their budget doesn't get cut.
01:17:50.000If a corporation were to tell, say, white employees that they had inherent characteristics based on their race or that they should undergo some kind of course or class based on their race, should businesses be allowed to do that?
01:18:10.000I can understand people being upset over it.
01:18:12.000I don't think there's anything wrong with racial sensitivity training and concept.
01:18:15.000The problem is that it's almost always done by this consultant class of like upper middle class like wasps who are really, really intent on getting their own milquetoast veil of progressivism pushed down the throats of whoever they can have paid to listen to.
01:18:29.000If it's a good course, everyone should be able to hear it.
01:18:31.000Wouldn't that violate the Civil Rights Act, though?
01:18:34.000I guess I would defer entirely to law.
01:18:36.000If it turns out to be unconstitutional, then he had it.
01:18:39.000I just want to say, though, that while we are fixating on bad behaviors here, and there's nothing wrong with that, I do maintain my insistence that I think the vast majority of progressives would agree with what I have to say.
01:18:50.000Though, keep in mind, there are always going to be a mix of good and bad ideas with good social movements, even the Civil Rights Act or the Civil Rights Movement, which we all know and love today.
01:19:01.000There were plenty of people acting there whose ideas I disagreed with.
01:19:05.000Malcolm X, when he had his black separatist phase, though he amended that before he died, there are even ideas of Martin Luther King's that I maybe could question if I spoke with him.
01:19:13.000He wrote a book after the Civil Rights Act: Where do we go from here?
01:19:20.000And he said a lot of stuff about the responsibility for white people to not make amends, but to educate themselves on the experience of black suffering so that we no longer just integrate.
01:19:39.000To me, a movement which recognizes the racial discrimination, the systemic racism that exists, that there are problems we have yet to overcome.
01:19:52.000So, first, the one thing I wanted to highlight, let me actually pull this up, is that net support, which is support versus opposition, before George Floyd died for Black Lives Matter in this country, was 16% net support.
01:20:04.000As of today, according to the Civics, it's 3%.
01:20:07.000That brings it all the way back to 2018, to August 16th.
01:20:11.000Now, one of the things I think is really important to note is the severe tribalism and hyperpolarization in this country.
01:20:16.000So, if we look at support for Black Lives Matter among Democrats, 86%.
01:20:22.000Support or opposition for Black Lives Matter among Republicans, 86% opposition.
01:21:49.000I think we lock way too many people up by erring the side of liberty, innocent until proven guilty.
01:21:53.000To take a working-class individual who is accused of shoplifting before he's even been proven of guilt, lock him up for several months, he loses his job.
01:22:00.000However, what do we see in San Francisco?
01:22:03.000Wave of shoplifting, businesses shutting down, because when you don't stop the crime, you get, I guess, a lot of crime.
01:22:19.000We have a fairly high recidivism rate in this country because, really, the thing that causes crime more than anything else, it's not actually poverty, it's income inequality.
01:22:26.000When poor people and rich people share the same space, it leads to a lot of problems.
01:22:29.000All poor people together in a neighborhood.
01:22:37.000And what's more, there are other forms of criminality that only really fully express themselves in the types of neighborhoods that have a really strong mix of wealthy and poor.
01:22:46.000I can see that because, again, from where I grew up, I lived on the border of a lot of low-income communities.
01:22:52.000Now, Beverly Hills, safest place you could be.
01:22:54.0003 a.m., you want to take a job, go for it.
01:23:24.000Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, they've all cut police.
01:23:27.000260 departments, I think it was reported last year, had stripped their funding from the money.
01:23:31.000I'm sorry, when you said defund, I thought I meant like the anarchist vision of community policing.
01:23:35.000When it comes to police funds being stripped, there is a conversation to be had about the relationship between that and crime, but the crime increase seems to be all countrywide.
01:23:43.000So I don't know if I'd be leaning more towards that being a COVID thing and people being restless and angry and, I don't know, aggressive.
01:23:50.000The thing that I'm trying to say, though, is when I grew up in Beverly Hills, really, really safe, free from violent crime.
01:24:15.000Apparently, murder actually has a very low default recidivist rate because usually it's done under a very specific set of heated conditions that don't actually speak to a person's character, which makes you wonder a lot about moral worth and what really drives a person to do that sort of thing.
01:24:29.000I think it's something we should look at critically, though I don't have any really strong database arguments.
01:24:34.000The last thing I want to say, because it's the first point that you brought up, is racial responses to the criminal justice system.
01:24:40.000I'm actually going to triple down on this one, okay?
01:24:42.000Not only do I think that we should aggressively look at the ways our sentencing laws affect and discriminate between black and white people and Hispanic and Asian, I think we should do the same between men and women.
01:24:54.000Because as much as black people are shafted by the criminal justice system, men are even more.
01:24:58.000If you take a look at the disproportionate rates of sentencing, relative levels of implicit bias in the jury, women get off with way more than men.
01:25:47.000But I think that there's an implication in your argument that I want to challenge, which is that just because you're poor doesn't mean you commit crimes.
01:25:54.000I think that's an insult to poor people.
01:25:56.000And so I think that if you automatically assume that, now there are data trends to suggest that, but instead it should be the question of what are we trying to structurally do or through incentives to either punish the people that are committing crimes and lift people out of that current level.
01:26:28.000Look, look, if you want funding that goes to police departments to go towards actually looking at the rape kits that they take rather than 250,000 untested rape kits in the tri-state area in New York City, 250,000, right?
01:26:41.000So our criminal justice system, you could say it had nefarious intentions.
01:26:57.000It's because we were tough on crime in the 80s and we had a massive campaign against it and we had the most peaceful decade in American history.
01:27:04.000The viability of broken windows policing has been challenged substantially, but there are admittedly some benefits.
01:27:11.000The argument that I would make is that what you're really doing is you're forestalling the problem.
01:27:16.000There are socioeconomic conditions that increase criminality, not because it makes people worse people, but just because oftentimes crime isn't some direct indicator of poor moral conduct.
01:27:26.000Oftentimes it is a crime of necessity, or it is a crime born of the discontent and the apostle.
01:27:33.000What would be a crime of necessity today with the welfare state that we have?
01:27:37.000What would possibly be a crime of necessity?
01:27:39.000I know for, I can at least speak to personal experience that I knew some people involved in, like, like they said, they would sometimes peddle drugs, and they did it because while they may have been accounted for by the welfare state, their parents' medical bills weren't, not sufficiently, not even close.
01:28:51.000From a secular perspective, you can make the argument that at the end of the day, the things we do are driven entirely by the chemical reactions in our brain.
01:28:58.000And therefore, everything that we do from start to finish is just a combination of random molecular patterns and blah, blah.
01:29:08.000But in practice, we are also the product of our environment.
01:29:11.000And the fact that, for example, having a single parent while growing up is a pretty strong criminal indicator is a suggestion that, I mean, is it an indicator of a person's inherent moral worth that they were born with a single parent?
01:30:17.000I could think of one, maybe two examples where I would make a moral claim of a crime of necessity, and that would be a revenge crime if someone murdered your wife or your kid.
01:30:34.000But the idea that in the welfare state that we have, with the private philanthropy kind of generosity, we have that shoplifting and arson and looting, mugging Barbara Boxer, that we should just say, you know, it's actually because the environment.
01:30:49.000You know why you pointed at me when you said that.
01:30:51.000No, I have never mugged Barbara Boston.
01:31:08.000Emil Durkheim, cool guy, dead now, thought that crime was sociologically useful because it shows you where the antagonisms are between people's wants and the state's desires.
01:31:18.000So crime takes place where there's an agitation between what people are being compelled to do by whatever, their own behavior, their desires, and what the state will allow you to do.
01:31:28.000So for example, during a food shortage, you know, we can take like Ireland during the potato famine.
01:31:34.000There were, to put it lightly, quite a few cases of theft during that time because people needed food.
01:35:32.000But here's what they don't tell you in the news briefs.
01:35:35.000So stock buybacks, something that many companies now do because of their decriminalization, the airline companies have spent an anomalous amount of their profits each year on stock buybacks to enrich their CEOs and shareholders rather than on hiring more pilots.
01:35:52.000It seems the issue here is this is a simple supply-demand issue.
01:35:58.000You see these news stories from time to time where it's like, I raised my wage to 15 an hour and people showed up.
01:36:03.000And it's like, yeah, that is how economics works.
01:36:06.000We had John Schneider, Papa John, on the show, and he told us a story about a pizzeria where they were paying 35 bucks an hour to some of their pizza cooks, bakers, because that was a line.
01:36:20.000That means pizzas are going to basically more than double because the wage they were paying before was like $15 and now they're over double what they were paying in labor.
01:37:24.000But in this country, compared to maybe some of our equally developed contemporaries, work really sucks.
01:37:29.000The work culture, our rate of overproductivity, Americans more than any other developed country, by the way, we push our workers hard.
01:37:36.000And you have favorable employment numbers, but you don't have favorable underemployment numbers.
01:37:41.000There are a lot of people who have jobs, but they have like two to three part-time jobs.
01:37:46.000They don't get their schedule for the next month until like two weeks before the end of the current one.
01:37:50.000They're constantly worrying about whether or not they're going to make their shifts line up to get enough hours to get the money they need to pay down their student debt along with their rent and everything.
01:38:20.000I will say that the lockdowns were way too harsh and intense.
01:38:23.000I will say there is a Fifth Amendment argument to be made, though, that if the government forces you to not work, then you should be able to get something in return.
01:38:30.000The government cannot take something from you constitutionally and not pay you for it.
01:38:34.000That's the eminent domain argument, right?
01:38:36.000Which was one of the best arguments for the stimulus package.
01:38:39.000I just think the lockdowns were far too severe and far too intense and really infringed on people's liberties and abilities to be able to take risks.
01:42:10.000I really want to get into the Marx thing because I'm super fascinated by it.
01:42:12.000No, I just want to say, you know, the theory, I mean, put simply, I guess, is that human society, the human project, it evolves as a product of antagonism, grinding antagonism between people in a Marxian view of different.
01:44:26.000It's been, I'm not saying improvement is not possible.
01:44:28.000Maybe we can make little improvements.
01:44:30.000But when I try to put myself in the shoes of men past, you know, I don't know, somebody in feudal China.
01:44:35.000And to them, what I live in today would have been incomprehensible to them in every imaginable sense, every conceivable way.
01:44:42.000But their arguments for the permanence of society then would have been better than mine today because they would have lived in a stable, feudal society for millennia.
01:44:53.000And today, I now am here using technology that would have been alien to humans 20 years ago.
01:44:59.000I think about like the Culture Revolution, the Cultural Revolution.
01:45:04.000I think about the revolution in Russia.
01:45:06.000And you mentioned the conservatives tend to be more fearful.
01:45:08.000And I think there's history that shows us things can go bad.
01:45:12.000You can have something that's good, not great, could probably be better, and then end up with an unchecked movement that results in millions dead.
01:45:21.00020 to 40 million, I think, in the Cultural Revolution.
01:46:24.000It always feels like everyone argues like this is the best it gets and any future steps would be treacherous.
01:46:30.000But then we always make that next step.
01:46:32.000I don't know if America is going to be around forever.
01:46:34.000We're a young country and countries far older than ours have fallen in the lifetime of America.
01:46:39.000So I can't look at what we have today or the people that I live with or the values that I believe in and assign to them a feeling of permanence.
01:47:04.000One thing I always bring up is like Christmas music written in the 50s.
01:47:07.000We still play it nonstop over and over again.
01:47:09.000Movies have become repetitive, redundant, reboots.
01:47:13.000It's evolved from where we had these interesting pieces of art to just regurgitated crap over and over again.
01:47:18.000Can I just take some exception with your argument?
01:47:20.000First of all, there is this kind of revisionist belief that somehow conservatives in the traditional sense were against some of those social movements, which is just not true.
01:47:28.000Now, I'm not saying you'd be a Confederate, and I'm not even getting to the party switching thing, but there is a direct lineage between hyper-focusing on racial politics in the 1860s and the 1920s and some of the people on the American left that are just completely obsessed with American, you know, racial politics.
01:47:44.000It's equality versus hierarchy, right?
01:47:47.000Well, back then, the slave owners wouldn't have been like, I'm really obsessed with race or equality.
01:47:53.000Now, I mean, obsession with race can be pernicious in many ways, but I think there's a pretty big difference between being obsessed with the idea of racial equality and being obsessed with.
01:48:01.000I think it's equally as pernicious, just they don't have the power to implement it.
01:48:44.000Not just like morality, because that could mean the same thing or different things to anyone.
01:48:48.000But if you were to look at a society and were asked to assess its worth, what metrics would you look towards?
01:48:54.000It's ability to defend those that can't defend themselves.
01:48:57.000Charity, generosity, integrity, faith to your creator, the ability to pass down good and moral values to the next generation, one that believes in work, and one that believes in the cause of the nation above the self.
01:50:21.000And to me, the problem with this is that when you get down to it, this thought process, this mentality, it drives men to do terrible, terrible things.
01:50:28.000Because interpersonally, all of the chemical effects of empathy kick in.
01:50:34.000But you start bringing in concepts like the nation, the fatherland, and it becomes very easy to convince people to compel themselves towards courses that they would otherwise not.
01:50:43.000So I expected you to use a 1930s reference earlier, so congratulations.
01:52:18.000Well, I mean, I like consciousness too.
01:52:20.000The only point that I'm getting at is when it comes to people's freedom and the ability for people to protect their freedom, this is what I care about.
01:52:38.000He wrote on freedom because he believed that society was a very complex, interlocking network of systems that in some ways liberated men and in other ways enslaved them.
01:53:08.000Just the greatest society is one where a man is born and there are as few things as possible preventing him from doing whatever he wants for the rest of his life.
01:53:49.000So where do you get those limits from?
01:53:50.000Well, obviously you would probably have to have a pretty complex interlocking legal system to determine what we agree upon as like a reasonable limits we can place on people's behavior.
01:54:35.000Eventually, you do agree that a conservative framework is necessary.
01:54:38.000I don't think that's a conservative framework because there are other things I care about that you would always disagree with, like collective ownership of the means of production.
01:54:44.000Which I think private property and freedom are linked together.
01:55:04.000I'm kind of interested what you think about.
01:55:06.000I think humans are inherently destructive by nature, and that if you took a human and put him in a room with a bunch of small animals and plants, over time, his hunger, purely because of hunger, ultimately, he would destroy and consume all of those animals and all of those plants.
01:55:21.000And then if you put another human in there, one of those would eventually destroy and consume the other human.
01:55:26.000I do think that we are maybe inherently expansionist.
01:55:31.000I think that might be a defining trait of our species.
01:57:27.000And then afterwards, if we still have time permitting, I would like to do the member segment and then personally be more involved than I've been for the most part.
01:57:37.000Sorry, we've been back to arm wrestling.
01:58:10.000I understand people's discomfort with abortion.
01:58:12.000I think that unfortunately it's a legal necessity as a byproduct of some very compelling personhood arguments I've heard in the past, which I would have to read up on again before reciting.
01:59:54.000To me, that's a better way to word it.
01:59:56.000To me, that has to be a legal question because protection has to be arbited by an entity and it can't be.
02:00:01.000And for me, that would probably be at birth.
02:00:02.000I've heard people make convincing philosophical arguments that there are times after birth when you're not even a person.
02:00:07.000And I've heard people make convincing arguments for conception.
02:00:10.000But if you're talking about a legal entity, the birth thing seems to be the line that's the easiest to distinguish.
02:00:15.000And there are other legal concerns as well.
02:00:17.000But this is an issue that I think I'm...
02:00:20.000Well, I always support a pro-choice argument.
02:00:23.000The philosophy behind it is something I'm a little more open to.
02:00:26.000So is it more on the size of the being or the level of development of the being or the environment of the being or the degree of dependency?
02:00:35.000Which one do you think out of those things is the reason why you say birth?
02:00:39.000The degree of dependency is legally worthwhile, but for consciousness, I think it's more about being an emergent property of experience.
02:01:33.000Camilla Mamani says, WTF, a libertarian socialist, is like a meat-eater vegan.
02:01:40.000Libertarianism was actually a left-leaning ideology.
02:01:43.000It was co-opted in the early 20th centuries by capitalists.
02:01:47.000But actually before that, libertarianism was exclusively in the purview of socialists.
02:01:52.000And I believe what they believed, that freedom is the greatest human good, as long as it doesn't infringe upon others, and that the best way to achieve that freedom is through democracy.
02:02:00.000We have political democracy, flawed as it is.
02:02:02.000Economic democracy is something we should also strive for.
02:02:38.000No, I just want to say, for what it's worth, there are some people who call themselves socialists who I actually think would agree probably more with you than with me.
02:02:44.000Like people who support China, for example.
02:03:49.000But I think even something more fundamental that I was trying, I think we almost achieved it tonight, which is that we're about to tear this country apart.
02:03:56.000And I think dialogue is something that is so beautiful and is so complex and almost spiritual in nature that if we don't have dialogue with people that you fundamentally disagree with, then there's really not a middle ground until you start ripping each other apart.
02:04:32.000I think that at the end of the day, there's a big difference between the problems we're told to care about and the problems we're willing to fight about.
02:04:39.000And I'm not entirely sure if I know where those lines are, but I know there's a difference.
02:04:43.000With regards to what I'd care about, for me, it has to be climate change.
02:04:46.000I know a lot of people roll their eyes at this stuff, but you can take a look at the polar ice caps.
02:04:51.000You can take a look at the weather disasters we've been having, increasing both in frequency and intensity.
02:04:55.000This isn't like a, like, look, think of it this way, okay?
02:04:58.000I believe in American industry, all right?
02:05:00.000It's a little too late for us to be firstcomers, but if we really wanted to, we could subsidize the hell out of green energy.
02:05:09.000In 20 years, we'll be selling the rest of the world the energy they'll need to survive.
02:05:13.000You know what really breaks my heart is the video I made before the actual Green New Deal talking about how we needed a Green New Deal, and then AOC's Green New Deal was like equity and college and healthcare.
02:05:27.000And I was like, I'm talking about why are we spending money on war when we could be researching green technologies and more efficient energy, thorium salt reactors, things like that, get fusion to ignite.
02:05:37.000Instead, we get this like racial equity garbage bill.
02:05:42.000Well, I do like the Green New Deal, but I had this problem too with that teachers' union board, the one that affirmed CRT, said they're going to.
02:06:18.000We should have a class, a philosophy class, where you learn about critical race theory.
02:06:22.000Teaching it in practice to children is a different idea.
02:06:25.000So, I actually, in response to my absolute failure in giving you the adequate response in our last conversation, did pull up critical race theory by Kimberly Crenshaw and actually read what she was talking about.
02:06:35.000And I think the idea of the oppressed versus oppressor and race is a horrible thing when we're trying to get away from that.
02:06:41.000And I had a conversation with an actual racist recently, and the ideas to me are absolutely nonsensical to base things on race.
02:06:48.000Coming from an actual racist who was advocating for the same things in that book, I was like, So you're happy with this stuff?
02:06:54.000Like, well, no, because the wrong side's in charge.
02:06:56.000And then I had to explain to them, like, I do not see the world the way you do.
02:06:58.000And he says, well, that's the trouble with race mixing.
02:07:01.000And that's and no, that's exactly this is what I see when I talk to when I talk to people who are in favor of critical race theory's core ideology and white nationalists.
02:07:09.000They tell me the same garbage in different ways.
02:07:12.000Look, I have always been a firm supporter of the idea that the ideas should be what's criticized, not like the people who make them.
02:07:18.000Sometimes, for example, people will make fun of me because I talk on class issues and I'm from Beverly Hills, and I accept the jibing.
02:07:35.000The only thing I wanted to say, because I have to move back like six points here, is that with regards to the teachers' board, yeah, you spoke on and the Green New Deal, I sometimes feel like the left is a little bit bad when it comes to mixing all their causes.
02:07:48.000If they, speaking of separatism, if they kept things a little bit more stringent, a little more focused, maybe they could get people to agree on some of it.
02:07:54.000But if every push for climate change is also every other progressive note, and every push for racial equality is every other progressive note, it feels like it's like an all-or-nothing package.
02:08:04.000And I think that can put some people off.
02:08:06.000I wanted to just clarify quickly and to inject my id poll, as you mentioned, you know, Candace Owens would do it.
02:08:12.000And a lot of people are always mentioning, you know, Timpo mentions he's mixed race.
02:08:15.000And I'm like, maybe that's why you'll understand when people are writing like whiteness this and people of color that.
02:08:20.000I'm like, I don't exist in that world because I've been discriminated against by all of these people.
02:08:25.000And when that person said to me, you know, the perils of mixed racing or race mixing, he's talking about me personally, saying, I don't understand the tribalist worldview of racialists and identitarians because I've never experienced what it means to be in a racial tribe.
02:08:38.000And that's why I love the classical liberal view of opposition to racism, judging people based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin.
02:08:47.000Because I see this world that's being built critical of whiteness that includes me, but then it's always the negative.
02:08:54.000Every experience I've ever had, be it from white nationalists or from critical race theorists, is that you are bad for whatever reason.
02:09:00.000I do not want to live in a world where race is the predeterminant policy maker or factor on these things.
02:09:08.000For the progressives to come out right now and claim civil rights and say we did all these things and then tell me I now face that detriment, I'm like, you know what, man, my grandparents, civil rights activists, race mixers, my actual parents also mix in races and stuff.
02:09:21.000And I'm like, I have to, I can now look at the progressives who are putting a detriment on my life and insulting me no matter what I do, and the white nationalists who vandalized my home as a child.
02:09:31.000And it's the world that you're taking credit for that you're trying now to put a detriment for people like me.
02:09:37.000It could to me, it could be a matter of perception as well.
02:09:40.000I've read a lot of like academic critiques of whiteness, which isn't white people.
02:10:15.000When I read stuff like that, it's interesting stuff, you know.
02:10:18.000I don't think of this, all men are bad, all masculinity is bad.
02:10:21.000It's more of a salient critique of certain cultural trends.
02:10:23.000Now, the problem that I have is essentialism.
02:10:26.000Some people will take this on both the left and the right, and they'll think of it as an individual critique, which it should never be used as.
02:10:33.000If I were to say something like, imagine I'm reading MLK back in 1953, you know, MLK had some things to say about white people back during his era.
02:10:42.000He would say that, you know, the whites of this era are unconcerned with the plight of black people, except he didn't say black people.
02:10:48.000And this is a non-essentialist critique.
02:10:50.000He didn't believe in racial essentialism.
02:10:52.000He wouldn't go up to an individual white person and judge them negatively for that, but he understood that as a cultural trend, this is indeed a pattern he recognizes.
02:11:00.000Well, massive group stereotyping that's been done by every civil rights movement to have ever existed.
02:11:06.000Maybe the issue isn't the stereotyping so much as the way it's being applied and used.
02:11:11.000If the stereotyping is, I notice there's a big difference in abolitionist thoughts between white and black people in southern America in 1852.
02:11:21.000Maybe that's the kind of stereotyping that can be used for good.
02:11:23.000Also, stereotyping by definition is assuming characteristics of an individual because of their part of a person.
02:11:28.000It's close to what MLK was saying when he said white liberals.
02:12:15.000So the climate change thing is an issue that'll affect us all, though.
02:12:18.000The big one's going to be climate refugees.
02:12:20.000There are a lot of low-lying coastal communities that are going to be inhospitable to life in about 40 years, and they're going to move out into populated areas.
02:12:28.000And there's going to be border conflicts and war.
02:12:52.000Nasho Nabo says, Vosh is a black person who grew up in majority white areas.
02:12:56.000Those conversations are very demoralizing to be a part of.
02:13:00.000I don't doubt your intentions, but it's best to speak to people affected by your ideas before trying to implement them as our white savior.
02:13:07.000I don't appreciate the white savior critique because that's just the opposite end of idpoll, isn't it?
02:13:12.000Saying that I'm less inclined to talk about these issues because I'm white.
02:13:16.000Like, that's kind of like the opposite of that.
02:13:20.000But with regards to like the implementation here, obviously, like social problems like this, addressing them is going to be contentious no matter what.
02:13:28.000I don't know if there's a way to do this, to fix any problem, even the most obvious problems.
02:13:32.000Today we think slavery, obviously that's bad, but clearly there was some disagreement.
02:13:36.000With issues like this, there's going to be disagreement.
02:13:38.000I don't know if there's a perfect way to handle it.
02:13:42.000I have to balance that concern with the hope that in the future people become more accepting of these issues.
02:13:49.000A good example of that would be like gender stuff, for example.
02:13:52.000In terms of like, if you look at it generationally, from boomers to Gen Z, Gen Z people are like 30 times as likely to know a person who identifies as trans or non-binary or whatever.
02:14:03.000And for that reason, conversations on those subjects have become significantly easier just because people have been exposed to the concept.
02:14:50.000So here's an interesting and kind of specific question.
02:14:54.000Joshua Alley asks, should courts decide cases based on rule of law and precedence or decide each case based entirely on rationality and morality?
02:15:08.000Precedence definitely matters, especially in the American system.
02:15:12.000And the idea of the whole third branch of government really kind of came into question with Marbury versus Madison, with the first Supreme Court Justice of the United States, John Jay, I believe, who was one of the co-authors of the Federalist Papers.
02:15:25.000Precedent is important, but it's not everything.
02:15:27.000And this is a super important thing that conservatives need to talk more about, which I think you would agree with, Vosh, is that precedents can be really bad.
02:15:37.000It was seven Democrat, U.S. Supreme Court justices, two Democrats that said black people were not people.
02:15:43.000And that precedent was in law basically for many decades until it was eventually reversed, largely because of the Brown versus Board of Education.
02:15:51.000But precedent also is helpful so that you don't turn the courts into another legislative branch, right?
02:15:58.000So the courts are supposed to be very unique and they're supposed to be deliberative, process-oriented, say no to more cases than they say yes to.
02:16:06.000And so the question is, where do you strike that balance?
02:16:09.000Alexander Hamilton predicted that it would be mostly based on public opinion, that judges are still people too, and they're going to look to public opinion.
02:16:18.000This goes to more of a Democratic argument than a Republic-style argument.
02:16:21.000I will defend precedent more than overturning, but I definitely think the court has gone wrong in a variety of different decisions in the last 60 years.
02:16:31.000And I think that what happens is you have very activist decisions, and then they decide not to look at it again under a conservative belief of precedent.
02:16:40.000I think I would lean more towards precedent, though, or sorry, as well, though maybe for a different reason.
02:16:46.000I think it's because we need accountability.
02:16:48.000The problem is if judicial decisions are entirely at the discretion of the judge, it becomes very difficult to correct legal trends through anything other than appoint better judges, which can be an incredibly long-standing process.
02:17:00.000And even then, it's what, a crapshoot?
02:17:02.000I mean, you don't know everyone's opinion on everything.
02:17:04.000That being said, I do think that to an extent judges are legislators.
02:17:08.000This is actually a critical legal theory perspective, which fed into CRT, the idea that within the bounds of discretion, judges will almost always side with the political biases they have.
02:17:20.000And that's not like a dig on any side.
02:17:23.000That judges who identify as liberal or conservative will overwhelmingly side with each other in the plurality of cases because our biases do inform us.
02:17:31.000I think that we have to recognize that's a reality, but we do have to constrain the process through judicial precedent or otherwise it's just throwing darts at a wall.
02:17:39.000I just want to point out one of the super chats noted that we were trending.
02:17:59.000But it's like, it's like, how did you get that wrong?
02:18:00.000Unless somebody's like screen grabbing.
02:18:03.000Hey, listen, after the Twitter trending title descriptor had to spend like six weeks in a row describing everything that happened with those Minecraft YouTubers, I feel like this is a they're a little bit off their game.
02:18:15.000Maybe somebody's restreaming it on Twitch or whatever.
02:18:18.000You know, just copyright infringement.
02:18:29.000He says, Do you guys think philosophy could be taught instead of CRT, like Plato's Allegory and the Cave?
02:18:35.000In my opinion, stuff like this helps people better understand one another individually.
02:18:40.000I'm hugely in favor of more theoretical classes being taught to high schoolers, philosophy, sociology, and I don't know what the modern equivalent of like finances or home ec would be, but something like that.
02:18:52.000Kids graduate, they don't know anything about anything when it comes to managing their finances, which is weird.
02:19:01.000Philosophy, everyone should be learned on, just flat out.
02:19:04.000That's just, I think that's a moral necessity.
02:19:06.000And when it comes to sociology, I'm not even talking like left-leaning inclinations on that.
02:19:11.000I mean like the basic ability to read like statistical information on what's going on, because for the rest of their lives, they're going to be asked to vote based on political information they don't have the education to understand.
02:19:21.000Yeah, I mean, philosophy comes from a Greek word, love of wisdom, philosophos, and we definitely don't have that right now in our country.
02:19:28.000And yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of teaching it.
02:19:50.000He's like, if you can't think rationally and be able to determine good ideas from bad ideas in the empirical, I'm not going to even get close to teaching you about the allegory of the cave or the ship or Plato's Republic or the forms.
02:20:00.000So I think there's actually something to that.
02:20:02.000That if you introduce philosophy too early, you can create kind of one-liner philosophers that think they understand the entire world.
02:20:10.000And it really goes to that expression: the more I know, the more I realize how little I knew when I thought I knew it all.
02:20:15.000That's the kind of that idea of daring to know.
02:20:19.000You know, the scientists who worked in the Manhattan Project, many of them said they cultivated inspiration from religion and from philosophy, completely outside the bound of physics, but it got their brain a jogging, you know?
02:20:30.000So I'd love to talk to you about religion and just like where you think that fits into a functioning.
02:20:34.000We should definitely talk about religion.
02:20:35.000This would be really, really interesting.
02:20:41.000And for everybody who super chatted, I know I really wish I could get to every single question and comment, but when you guys ask a question and you guys have that debate, that's the point of this.
02:20:50.000So, you know, I try to do as many as we could.
02:20:54.000I thought it was better to let you guys talk instead of constantly trying to just cut off the actual discussion and the flow of things.
02:20:59.000So my apologies to everybody who super chatted.
02:21:01.000But if you go to Timcast.com, become a member, we are going to now have another conversation, which I don't believe will be up by 11 p.m. this time because debating religion, I absolutely love the religious conversations we've had on this show on Timcast IRL.
02:22:50.000I really want to dive in and question socialism.
02:22:53.000And we'll start with talking about religion.
02:22:54.000And then so go to Timcast.com, members-only segment will be up when it's up because we're not going to go forever, but we'll probably have a good conversation.
02:23:00.000So thanks for hanging out for the live version.
02:23:04.000And we'll see you all in an hour or so over at Timcast.com.
02:23:07.000Again, sincere thanks to everybody who hung out.
02:23:09.000Smash that like button on your way out and we'll see you soon.