The Charlie Kirk Show - A Civil Debate with Someone Whom I Completely Disagree ft. Vaush and Tim Pool

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody.

00:00:00.000 I'm this bonus episode of the Charlie Kirk Show, my conversation with Tim Poole and a self-described libertarian socialist vouch, V-A-U-S-H.

00:00:11.000 This episode is brought to you advertiser-free, but I want to just thank Tim Poole at timcast.com.

00:00:18.000 That's TimCast.com for hosting this conversation and for giving us permission to post this episode in its entirety.

00:00:27.000 Timcast.com.

00:00:28.000 Tim Poole is a great American.

00:00:30.000 I think you guys are going to really enjoy this conversation.

00:00:33.000 At times, I did more listening than talking.

00:00:35.000 I learned a lot throughout this conversation.

00:00:39.000 I also, at the beginning, started very, let's say, I was very energetic and scaled that back afterwards.

00:00:48.000 I wouldn't say overly so.

00:00:49.000 It's an issue I care a lot about vaccines, but you'll see that just tonally, that it was probably a little bit more excitable than I should have been.

00:00:56.000 Nothing overly dramatic.

00:00:57.000 And then throughout the episode, I think I really make some strong points and ask some questions out of Vouch, but I tried my best to have civil discourse with somebody I fundamentally disagree on almost everything.

00:01:07.000 And I hope that this conversation can be a little bit of a tool to show your children, maybe show you, if you are a high school or college student, that you can have conversations with people that you disagree with.

00:01:21.000 It's a long form episode.

00:01:22.000 Again, it starts kind of hot, and then it gets really after that, I think, very constructive.

00:01:27.000 We start with the vaccine topic, dive right into it, and then we go into all sorts of different issues around race and education.

00:01:34.000 And so I think you are going to enjoy this conversation, advertiser-free.

00:01:37.000 Thanks to our friends, TimCast, TimCast.com, Tim Pool, who's doing a great job.

00:01:42.000 And if you guys want to support our program, thank you, Brian.

00:01:44.000 Thank you, Cynthia.

00:01:45.000 Thank you, Steve.

00:01:46.000 And thank you, Donald, charliekirk.com slash support.

00:01:49.000 And email us, freedom at charliekirk.com and send this episode to your friends.

00:01:53.000 It is a long form, advertiser-free conversation with somebody on the completely different spectrum.

00:02:00.000 Some would call it a debate.

00:02:01.000 It really ends up being more like a conversation.

00:02:03.000 We want to bring more of this type of content to you where we debate people on the other side.

00:02:07.000 I don't like shouting matches.

00:02:08.000 I don't like going back and forth, but I think this is something that you're all going to really enjoy.

00:02:12.000 I'd love your thoughts on it too.

00:02:13.000 Just say, hey, Charlie, here's what I really enjoyed about that conversation or Charlie, I think you did an awful job.

00:02:18.000 Whatever you have to say, I love hearing from you.

00:02:19.000 Freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

00:02:21.000 Thank you guys for so generously and loyally supporting us.

00:02:23.000 You are all the best.

00:02:24.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:02:25.000 Here we go.

00:02:26.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:02:28.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

00:02:30.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

00:02:34.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

00:02:37.000 I want to thank Charlie.

00:02:38.000 He's an incredible guy.

00:02:39.000 His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.

00:02:47.000 We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.

00:02:56.000 That's why we are here.

00:03:00.000 Is critical race theory the biggest threat to America, or is it at least a threat to America?

00:03:06.000 Well, there's a lot of questions around that.

00:03:08.000 Obviously, you guys know my position on this to a certain degree, but there's a lot of other issues we need to talk about.

00:03:13.000 One of the biggest stories right now is that New York has imposed a, we'll call it a, I don't want to say limited, but it's a vaccine mandate for indoor activities, entertainment performances.

00:03:25.000 And Bill de Blasio said the goal here is to encourage people, mostly young people, to get the vaccine.

00:03:31.000 That means if you want to go to the movie theaters, if you want to engage in normal activities like at bars, you have to have a vaccine passport. 0.92

00:03:36.000 You have to have proof.

00:03:37.000 They call it key to NYC.

00:03:39.000 Now, why do I bring up critical race theory?

00:03:41.000 Well, for one, you know the title of this video.

00:03:42.000 We're going to have a conversation, a political debate or discussion about this.

00:03:46.000 But there is a question some people have brought up due to the low level of vaccination among the black community and how that will disproportionately affect people and whether or not this will be truly equitable.

00:03:55.000 But today, the bigger thing we're doing is not just about the news.

00:03:59.000 It's about a conversation with two prominent individuals in politics.

00:04:02.000 We've got Charlie Kirk, who I'm sure most of you know.

00:04:05.000 Do you want to just briefly introduce yourself?

00:04:07.000 Charlie Kirk.

00:04:08.000 Honored to be here.

00:04:08.000 We're going to have some fun.

00:04:10.000 Do you describe yourself politically in any way?

00:04:12.000 I guess you could say I'm on the right.

00:04:14.000 Conservative?

00:04:15.000 Yeah.

00:04:16.000 More than that.

00:04:17.000 Conservative and love of the country.

00:04:19.000 Then, of course, we have Vosh. 0.75

00:04:19.000 Right on. 0.75

00:04:21.000 Howdy.

00:04:21.000 Join it.

00:04:22.000 Yeah.

00:04:23.000 I'm Vosh.

00:04:24.000 I'm a YouTuber.

00:04:25.000 And I guess I call myself a libertarian socialist.

00:04:28.000 I like some parts of the country.

00:04:29.000 I'm a big fan of some parts, but some other parts I think could use some improvement.

00:04:33.000 Right on.

00:04:34.000 Now, we've got Ian here, as per usual.

00:04:36.000 Hi, everyone.

00:04:36.000 I'm going to be in the chat today watching your super chats.

00:04:39.000 So keep sending them in, and I'll be clipping them so that we can get to it at the end of the show.

00:04:43.000 Hi.

00:04:44.000 And I am very excited.

00:04:45.000 So I'm just going to interject here.

00:04:47.000 I'm excited for this conversation.

00:04:48.000 I'm going to be switching like a crazy person.

00:04:50.000 And hopefully tonight goes really well and we all learn something new.

00:04:53.000 And before we jump in, head over to Timcast.com, become a member to get an ad-free experience and exclusive access to members-only segments of this show.

00:05:01.000 And I guess I wasn't initially planning on it, but I guess everyone's cool to do a member segment after the show, and we'll find something fun to talk about.

00:05:08.000 So, you know, we'll see how it plays out.

00:05:09.000 So make sure you become a member.

00:05:10.000 Make sure you like this video, subscribe to this channel, share it with your friends.

00:05:13.000 If you think this conversation is important, I'm sure there are many right-wing individuals like, get him, Charlie, crush Vosh.

00:05:19.000 And there's a lot of left-wing people being like, Vosh is going to own.

00:05:22.000 We'll share it with your friends and let's have a good conversation.

00:05:25.000 And I suppose we can start with one of two things.

00:05:28.000 Obviously, I brought up critical race theory, but also the vaccine issue.

00:05:31.000 I'm not sure if you guys have a preference for what you're...

00:05:34.000 You talk about the vaccine.

00:05:35.000 Why don't we talk about what's going on with vaccine passports?

00:05:38.000 Sure.

00:05:38.000 We've seen in Sydney, for instance, they issued a lockdown.

00:05:42.000 Most, or I should say enough people ignored it.

00:05:44.000 They went out in the streets.

00:05:46.000 And then this resulted in news articles saying chaos in Sydney.

00:05:49.000 People aren't, you know, they're not following the rules.

00:05:52.000 The vaccination rate in Australia is ridiculously low.

00:05:55.000 I think it's 18%, really, really low.

00:05:57.000 Well, then they called in police and there were big protests.

00:06:01.000 Now they've actually deployed military.

00:06:03.000 So I'm curious if either of you wants to jump in with your thoughts on mandates, what would happen if they came here, if you're for or against them.

00:06:10.000 Look, there are elements of mandates that I can agree with.

00:06:12.000 We've already set standards for other things like the MMR vaccine, very basic standard vaccines that we expect everyone to get before they can go to school, travel.

00:06:21.000 And I think for the most part, that's worked.

00:06:22.000 We've eradicated plagues from the world.

00:06:24.000 I think we should be proud of that.

00:06:25.000 With regards to COVID, since this is an ongoing pandemic, we need to focus on approaches that are effective and that don't ostracize or exacerbate tensions.

00:06:33.000 With regard to the Australian situation, it's not something I'm extensively familiar with, but generally speaking, I don't think that cracking down on protests is going to be an effective way to incentivize people to get vaccinated.

00:06:43.000 What's happening in New York might be, but my main issue with it is that I'm not entirely sure how they expect people to still have their vaccination card.

00:06:51.000 I know that there's been some confusion from the beginning as to whether or not you should keep that.

00:06:55.000 I know people have thrown theirs away.

00:06:56.000 They made it too big for wallets.

00:06:58.000 It just felt a little bit haphazardly planned from the forego.

00:07:02.000 So that's unfortunate.

00:07:03.000 Maybe they can find other ways to incentivize it.

00:07:05.000 Like, for example, in schools where they have a direct access to government records where they wouldn't have to use those little cards.

00:07:13.000 You know, that might be a little bit better.

00:07:14.000 I guess we'll have to see.

00:07:16.000 Well, I'm not saying you believe this, but some people on the left, I never want to hear about the discussion of voter ID ever again.

00:07:21.000 Because now you can force people to identify their medical history to try to get into a restaurant in New York City.

00:07:26.000 Yeah, look, I'm not getting the vaccine.

00:07:28.000 So I'm part of the 100 million people that are unvaccinated.

00:07:32.000 And it's an experimental vaccine.

00:07:34.000 The FDA and CDC has said that in January.

00:07:36.000 It's questionably effective.

00:07:38.000 Lindsey Graham just came down with COVID.

00:07:40.000 You had a vessel, a ship in the United Kingdom, 100% vaccinated ship that came down with COVID.

00:07:46.000 It's more like a treatment than a vaccine.

00:07:49.000 I'll leave that conversation to Dr. Brett Weinstein and the people that really understand how that works.

00:07:55.000 But yeah, this is medical apartheid.

00:07:58.000 This is trying to create a two-tiered system where if you don't make the proper medical decisions, you're not able to go to Broadway shows or go into restaurants, even when the efficacy of this vaccine is questionable at best.

00:08:12.000 We see that in Israel, an 85% vaccinated country that's about to lock down again.

00:08:16.000 And most of the new cases are from vaccinated patients, not unvaccinated patients in Israel.

00:08:22.000 So, sorry, you want to interject him.

00:08:23.000 Yeah, obviously against mandates.

00:08:25.000 And I think people should be able to make their own medical decisions.

00:08:27.000 I think it's pretty obvious.

00:08:28.000 Well, I disagree.

00:08:29.000 I think we actually have a story wrote on Timcast.com that our view of the lockdowns is that it's alarmism because a new study from the Public Health of England found the Pfizer vaccine is 96% effective after two doses at staving off the Delta variant, and AstraZeneca was 92%.

00:08:45.000 I can probably agree it's alarmism, but it's enough of an alarm for the public health leaders to undermine the argument that the vaccine is a solution to what would possibly satisfy the public.

00:08:55.000 I mean, I was against the lockdowns in the first place.

00:08:57.000 Let me be very clear when we were 1,000 deaths a day, not 334.

00:09:00.000 But sorry, go ahead.

00:09:00.000 Well, a couple of points on this.

00:09:02.000 First of all, it's experimental in the sense that there was an expedited process for its release, but there have been full and extensive studies taken on the safety and effectiveness of these vaccines.

00:09:10.000 The reason why the FDA study hasn't been finished, the reason why it hasn't been fully vetted, isn't because they're looking for long-term health effects.

00:09:17.000 It's because they're determining the extent to which it protects you over a long period of time.

00:09:21.000 Ergo, the fact of the matter is, by all available data, this is undeniably much safer to get the vaccine.

00:09:28.000 I mean, by orders of magnitude.

00:09:29.000 Let me ask you a question.

00:09:30.000 Wait, a couple things because you said a few things there.

00:09:32.000 There are some instances where areas have more people being infected if they're already vaccinated.

00:09:37.000 But if you take a look at like, this is like data mining.

00:09:40.000 If you take a look at the broader statistics, especially here in America, the number of people who have gotten breakthrough cases is something like 0.003% of people who have been vaccinated.

00:09:49.000 You can take a look at the numbers.

00:09:50.000 Where is this new wave exploding?

00:09:52.000 It's in the unvaccinated.

00:09:54.000 In spite of the fact that fewer and fewer people are remaining unvaccinated, the vaccinated stay relatively healthy.

00:09:59.000 And not only do they get infected way less often, they also suffer far fewer severe symptoms.

00:10:06.000 Their hospitalization rates have plummeted and their deaths are incredibly low compared to people who are unvaccinated.

00:10:12.000 This is by all means an effective vaccine.

00:10:14.000 What's your opinion of Johnson and Johnson, the FDA saying that it might cause a rare nerve disease?

00:10:19.000 Yeah, that's something that, first of all, when you take a look at that, you have to recognize that even if that was the case, which the FDA says it is.

00:10:28.000 Right.

00:10:28.000 Well, they're looking into it, of course.

00:10:31.000 They have issued an official warning that it could issue a rare nerve disease.

00:10:34.000 That's a big deal.

00:10:35.000 Could issue, of course.

00:10:36.000 And that is something to look into and to be concerned about.

00:10:36.000 They're looking into it.

00:10:38.000 What's your opinion of VARES, the vaccine adverse event reporting system?

00:10:41.000 Hold on.

00:10:43.000 I'm just curious because this is...

00:10:45.000 Let's do the Gillian-Bear syndrome, though.

00:10:47.000 Yeah, of course.

00:10:47.000 I think you want to see it.

00:10:48.000 Stuff like that can happen.

00:10:49.000 Now, even if that claim is the case, it would remain the fact that unless the extent of that potential nerve damage is just apocalyptically severe, that the effects of getting COVID would still be far, far worse than the potential side effects of that vaccine.

00:11:02.000 However, if you were to say, let's say worst case, you know, Johnson and Johnson, it's not viable.

00:11:07.000 We see what the consequences are.

00:11:07.000 That gets pulled.

00:11:09.000 That doesn't really speak against the greater viability of the vaccines.

00:11:12.000 I got Pfizer, for example.

00:11:13.000 We're talking hundreds of millions of people who have either been protected against the vaccine in part, or if they get it, or sorry, against the virus, or if they get it, their effects, their symptoms are much, much, much more miserable.

00:11:25.000 So I just want to just kind of just play into the irony here that I'm the one criticizing the pharmaceutical companies and you're the ones that are, you're the one defending.

00:11:33.000 I just think that's I think it's delicious.

00:11:35.000 Well, wait, hold on.

00:11:36.000 That's an extremely dishonest talking.

00:11:38.000 Well, you're peddling the Pfizer vaccine.

00:11:40.000 You're saying it's so effective.

00:11:42.000 So wait, hold on.

00:11:43.000 Wait, I'm the one saying, hold on, maybe AstraZeneca, Moderna, Johnson and Johnson and Pfizer.

00:11:48.000 Let's talk about the points he's made.

00:11:50.000 No, I'm just, I was just enjoying the irony.

00:11:52.000 Well, the thing is, it's not really like irony if you understand the issue at hand.

00:11:56.000 Steve, my praise doesn't go to the pharmaceutical companies or their CEOs.

00:11:59.000 It goes to the tireless workers who spent months and months and months developing these vaccines.

00:12:03.000 Very who's getting rich?

00:12:04.000 Very big fence vaccine.

00:12:05.000 Well, hold on.

00:12:06.000 Have I at any point praised the distribution or profiteering system?

00:12:10.000 Who do you have to refer to vaccine mandates?

00:12:12.000 The workers or Pfizer CEOs?

00:12:14.000 Nobody's talking about who gets rich.

00:12:16.000 Isn't that your whole idea?

00:12:16.000 This is a toothless critic.

00:12:17.000 Wait, hold on.

00:12:18.000 This is a toothless critique that you could.

00:12:19.000 Let's go.

00:12:21.000 Let's try and go back and forth.

00:12:22.000 This is a toothless critique that you could apply to literally anything that you don't like.

00:12:25.000 Everything in this country is manufactured to the profit.

00:12:28.000 No CEO.

00:12:29.000 We don't mandate it and say you can't go to restaurants if you don't get one of four major pharmaceuticals.

00:12:34.000 Wait, wait, I just want to say, if that's your criticism.

00:12:36.000 That's one of many.

00:12:38.000 So if that's the criticism you want to focus on, I'm in favor of nationalizing the pharmaceutical industry.

00:12:43.000 I'm willing to take it that far.

00:12:44.000 But whether or not that's on the table, and I can't just make that happen when we're talking strictly about the effectiveness of the vaccine, it seems so.

00:12:52.000 That's not a praise of the capitalist industry behind it.

00:12:55.000 No, I was just enjoying the irony.

00:12:56.000 That's irony.

00:12:57.000 Well, it's totally ironic because I'm the one saying that they might be lying to us.

00:13:00.000 You're the one that's saying it's super effective.

00:13:02.000 Wait, what?

00:13:03.000 Usually, if we were wearing our traditional uniforms, right versus left, it would be the other way around.

00:13:07.000 That's all I'm saying.

00:13:08.000 The only comment I'm making is that.

00:13:09.000 What do you have to say about VARES, though?

00:13:10.000 What do you have to say about the vaccine adverse event reporting system that says, well, over 7,000 people experience death after getting the vaccine?

00:13:17.000 Does that worry you?

00:13:18.000 The VARES system is entirely self-reported.

00:13:21.000 I don't think it's generally used to work.

00:13:22.000 Do you think it's underreported or overreported?

00:13:25.000 With VARES, it's almost impossible to say.

00:13:27.000 You know what VARES is, right?

00:13:28.000 Can you tell me what VARES is?

00:13:29.000 Yeah, VARES is a government website that physicians or individuals can submit complaints or concerns after an adverse event report from a vaccine.

00:13:38.000 Since you cannot win in court against a vaccine production company, then they go through some process where the government then can distribute some form of remedy if you had an adverse event reaction.

00:13:49.000 That's what VARES is.

00:13:50.000 And researchers like it because if you take a vaccine or you get some other procedure, any medical drug done, you can report the effects there.

00:13:57.000 And it can be a way of gathering sort of aggregate data concerning the effects of these potential treatments.

00:14:04.000 The problem is researchers don't use this as a bulletproof way of determining the outcome or effect of anything because they're literally just unvetted online submissions that anybody can put in.

00:14:14.000 So I think that's I ask you because I want to know, how do you arrive at the conclusion that how many people did you say it's VARES's own data is 7,000 plus, and most of which, by the way...

00:14:25.000 No, I'm asking you.

00:14:25.000 Anyone can submit.

00:14:26.000 By the way, most of which are physicians submitted, just so you know.

00:14:28.000 These are total number.

00:14:30.000 Most of the submissions on the VARES website are done by like family doctors or local physicians.

00:14:37.000 So I'm just asking, but what number of adverse event reactions would you say maybe there's something wrong?

00:14:42.000 But I'm asking 10,000 deaths?

00:14:44.000 How do you know what's new vaccines?

00:14:46.000 No, I'm just saying that's what VARES says, right?

00:14:48.000 No, wait, but wait, so I need to know if we don't.

00:14:50.000 So that's the question.

00:14:52.000 So wait, is these just people who have died after taking the vaccine?

00:14:55.000 Like they may have died from some medical incident afterwards and it just gets put up.

00:14:59.000 This is the question.

00:15:00.000 Usually a vaccine gets pulled when you have 15 attributable deaths.

00:15:04.000 We have 7,000 that we have to go through.

00:15:06.000 The question is, when do you call time out and say, maybe we've got to- You're not answering the question.

00:15:09.000 How do you know that they're from the vaccine?

00:15:11.000 That's the point.

00:15:11.000 We don't.

00:15:12.000 But you don't either.

00:15:14.000 But the position is let's mandate experimental medicine.

00:15:17.000 We don't know actually what's happening.

00:15:19.000 Wait, if you don't know, then how can you say that medical doctors are the one uploading this information?

00:15:23.000 Is there any methodology or we can have a paper?

00:15:24.000 We do know who's actually uploading it.

00:15:26.000 We know that.

00:15:27.000 We know the entries are usually typically traditionally.

00:15:30.000 How about menstrual cycle disruption, loss of nerve capacity, unable to walk, paralysis, miscarriages, mood changes?

00:15:41.000 Also, you could go through the VARES database, like, oh, that's interesting.

00:15:44.000 But are we?

00:15:46.000 Let me interject.

00:15:46.000 The death is 7,000 plus.

00:15:47.000 That's a serious question.

00:15:48.000 I want to, how do they know what's from the vaccine?

00:15:50.000 I keep asking you this.

00:15:50.000 You don't know.

00:15:51.000 Let me address two points, one from each of you, real quick, so we can try and.

00:15:55.000 How do we know it's from the vaccine?

00:15:56.000 It's a difficult, difficult question.

00:15:58.000 I would say that if you have a mass vaccination program, which gives out 330 million doses or so, and then people start saying, Hey, I got the vaccine, then this happened, theirs isn't here to say it is or isn't.

00:16:10.000 They're here to say, Can we find a pattern in this?

00:16:11.000 And I think 7,000 suggests there may be one at the very least.

00:16:15.000 I'm not a scientist, so I can't stress that.

00:16:17.000 I will also say, however, to Charlie, Gillian Baer syndrome, which I'm probably pronouncing wrong, it's a side effect.

00:16:22.000 Always mispronounce it.

00:16:23.000 Yeah, I mean, Deon Bar.

00:16:24.000 There you go.

00:16:25.000 Yeah, something.

00:16:25.000 My understanding is actually a side effect of many vaccines.

00:16:28.000 Yeah, it is.

00:16:29.000 And so, totally, that's correct.

00:16:30.000 It could be.

00:16:31.000 Well, so the issue I have is one of the things that Vosh brought up is that there's been, how many you mentioned?

00:16:35.000 100 million, 160 million, I think.

00:16:38.000 115, I think it is.

00:16:39.000 Million.

00:16:40.000 Who have been fully vaccinated?

00:16:41.000 Fully vaccinated.

00:16:41.000 I think in that ballpark.

00:16:43.000 So, of course, you know, if you, if you have something very different from any other vaccination we normally do because we're not having everyone do it all at once.

00:16:51.000 Yeah.

00:16:52.000 And so this is a mass inoculation thing.

00:16:53.000 And so here's why the American system should answer this question easily.

00:16:58.000 When you have any sort of uncertainty or disagreement, yield to rights.

00:17:03.000 Yield to rights.

00:17:04.000 Allow people to say no.

00:17:05.000 Let me just build out the argument, right?

00:17:06.000 So for me, for example, I'm 27.

00:17:09.000 I don't consider COVID to be a largely disproportionate risk to my way of life.

00:17:14.000 I don't know about this vaccine.

00:17:16.000 I have gotten other vaccines in my life.

00:17:18.000 So I want to be able to have the right to say no to that.

00:17:21.000 So the American system, Constitution, kind of like the tradition, is to be able to have people have nuance, preferences, and individualism.

00:17:29.000 When it comes to these sort of complex issues, not saying you can't go to a restaurant because we want you to take experimental medicine.

00:17:35.000 So a couple of points on that.

00:17:35.000 Right.

00:17:37.000 First of all, if we're speaking to legal rights, the Supreme Court found over a century ago that when it came to vaccinations, this was a special exemption from some people's rights to 1904 in that one.

00:17:50.000 And there's a reason why, because, of course, when you choose not to take the vaccine, you contribute to the removal of others' freedoms.

00:17:56.000 See, it's true.

00:17:57.000 You do have a freedom to not or to take a vaccine, but I think other people should have the freedom to not grow up in a world ridden by plague.

00:18:05.000 And with the way this disease, COVID, mutates with time, as all diseases do, inevitably, if it continues to circle the world long enough, and this is an international problem, not just an American one, new strains will develop, which will slowly ebb at the effectiveness of this set of vaccines.

00:18:23.000 So it threatens all of us.

00:18:25.000 May I say one other thing?

00:18:26.000 Sorry, sorry.

00:18:27.000 With all of that being said, just to speak to VARS, VARS is an incredibly effective system for locating and roughly attributing concerns related to the effects of drugs.

00:18:37.000 The problem is that there are several elements to this disease that make it really difficult to pinpoint anything specific.

00:18:44.000 Second, the two of which being A, hundreds of millions of people vaccinated.

00:18:47.000 That is a huge range to pull data from.

00:18:50.000 And B, the propagandist fear campaign about an incredibly effective vaccine process that may lead people to misinterpret the vaccine.

00:18:57.000 I just want to get a real clarification to vaccines.

00:19:00.000 Just quick clarification: are you for mandating the COVID-19 vaccine?

00:19:00.000 Sorry.

00:19:05.000 The same way we have other vaccines, like school, travel, that kind of stuff.

00:19:08.000 So, like, what if someone wanted to go to a restaurant or a supermarket or a movie theater?

00:19:08.000 Yeah.

00:19:12.000 I think that, I mean, we don't have that for other vaccines, right?

00:19:14.000 Like, every time you go to a movie theater, you have a little card.

00:19:16.000 I understand that might be an effective panic measure, but long-term, my goal would be to integrate it into the same revenue of vaccines.

00:19:23.000 I think that's a more reasonable response than some politicians.

00:19:26.000 I'm just going to be honest.

00:19:27.000 People are panicking.

00:19:28.000 No, I think that's a more difficult document.

00:19:29.000 I just want to make sure we weren't having misunderstanding.

00:19:32.000 No, I think that's more of a reasonable answer.

00:19:34.000 I'm just curious, just on the vaccine topic in general.

00:19:38.000 Are you concerned by Dr. Malone coming out, who literally invented the mRNA vaccine and says that there's a dangerous spike protein involved, and he encourages people to think twice before getting it?

00:19:49.000 Does that move you at all?

00:19:50.000 You're free to speak with your doctor when it comes to organization.

00:19:52.000 No, Dr. Malone, just his specific commentary.

00:19:54.000 He's specifically the guy who invented this type of vaccine.

00:19:57.000 I'm not a PhD, and I doubt that he was directly involved in the production of these vaccines.

00:20:01.000 No, he literally invented this.

00:20:02.000 The mRNA, but with the Johnson and Johnson, the Pfizer, the.

00:20:05.000 But he's very, very aware of the sort of accelerated implementation.

00:20:08.000 He's trying to call timeout and tell people this is not like any other vaccine.

00:20:12.000 Does that worry you?

00:20:13.000 His claim is that it involves a spike protein.

00:20:15.000 It was rushed to market.

00:20:16.000 It's going to have side effects.

00:20:17.000 You don't understand it like I did.

00:20:19.000 I invented this, and you got to think twice before mandating it or even taking it if you're under a certain age.

00:20:25.000 Does that bother you?

00:20:26.000 What makes the current retinue of vaccines that we take, the mRNA process, different from other MRNA?

00:20:31.000 It doesn't involve the spike protein, according to him, the same composition as like the measles, mumps, rubella-type vaccine or the chickenpox vaccine.

00:20:38.000 Well, those weren't mRNA.

00:20:39.000 The process wasn't developed back during the MMR vaccine.

00:20:41.000 Totally, but some of them are getting updated for the more mRNA type technology.

00:20:45.000 But if he wasn't involved in the production of these modern vaccines, how could he possibly have any comment on any of the rigors or tests that were invented this type of vaccine?

00:20:52.000 I'm just saying, does that bother you?

00:20:53.000 Do you think he's just like a fear propagandist and like no, he may well have concerns, but those are concerns that I would rather have addressed by the scientific community rather than with respect to you and myself, YouTubers.

00:21:02.000 Well, no, I agree.

00:21:03.000 So, but the question is, which scientists, right?

00:21:06.000 So there's a lot of scientists speaking out against this.

00:21:07.000 Dr. Brett Weinstein, Dr. Malone.

00:21:10.000 What does Dr. Brett Weinstein say?

00:21:12.000 He's an evolutionary biologist, so he knows a little bit about how cellular function works.

00:21:17.000 That is not virology.

00:21:18.000 That is a completely spurious vaccine.

00:21:20.000 Do you trust Fauci more or Dr. Brett Weinstein?

00:21:22.000 It's not about Fauci.

00:21:23.000 It's about Fauci.

00:21:23.000 He's a virologist who's been wrong about everything.

00:21:25.000 It's about the global.

00:21:26.000 Well, hold on.

00:21:27.000 He's smiling with glee here.

00:21:28.000 It's the global medical community in this regard.

00:21:31.000 You mean like the WHO?

00:21:33.000 No, hold on, wait, wait.

00:21:34.000 Put a name behind it.

00:21:35.000 Wait, he's very excited and wrong.

00:21:36.000 Yeah, let's know.

00:21:37.000 I just want to say, it's not just about the WHO.

00:21:39.000 We are talking about a unified effort on the part of virtually every country on earth to get a hold of the vaccines that us Americans are privileged to have.

00:21:47.000 This isn't some pharmaceutical Dr. Fauci push that wasn't broadly supported by any of the relevant experts.

00:21:53.000 In the mRNA field, which is not huge because it's a very new development, internationally, there is a demand for these vaccines.

00:22:02.000 I wanted to add, just based on what you had said, I can pull up Reuters.

00:22:05.000 Their fact check is that vaccines are not, quote, cytotoxic.

00:22:09.000 They go on to mention that Robert Malone, and they show the Brett Weinstein podcast.

00:22:14.000 They show the Post, the FDA was alerted months ago that the spike protein and the COVID vaccines are cytotoxic, toxic to cells.

00:22:21.000 The FDA did nothing.

00:22:23.000 Reuters says this is not true.

00:22:25.000 Now, the issue at hand is trust.

00:22:28.000 Like you mentioned, you said, do you trust Fauci or Bert Weinstein?

00:22:31.000 I don't know if there is a fact-based argument if you have the doctors you trust and the doctors you trust or the organizations you trust.

00:22:38.000 It's a clash of who you believe to be honest.

00:22:40.000 None of us have the credentials to just come up with these arguments on their own.

00:22:43.000 There will always be bias in who we choose to believe.

00:22:45.000 However, given the plurality of people seem to support the safety and the effectiveness of the vaccine and the fact that it doesn't take a virologist to notice that over half a million Americans have died of COVID, more than the combined death tolls of every war since World War I combined, including the Second World War in Vietnam.

00:23:01.000 Those are things that I don't need to be a virologist to see.

00:23:04.000 Can I ask you a question, though?

00:23:05.000 Pretty bad.

00:23:06.000 One of the issues that's brought up frequently, especially on Twitter, is that many of these COVID deaths are died with COVID, as it's brought up, where people would say something like it tends to be people who are over 70 or things like that.

00:23:17.000 I'm only bringing that up, not to make the argument, but because you said, how would VARES know if these are actually related to the vaccine?

00:23:22.000 I'd love to respond to that, if I may.

00:23:23.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:24.000 COVID rarely directly kills you.

00:23:26.000 Like age, it causes a breakdown in other vital functions that then their death can be attributed to such.

00:23:33.000 So, for example, of the many things that people die, it's not really COVID.

00:23:36.000 It's just that COVID blanks their entire system internally, and eventually something fails, something breaks, and they die.

00:23:43.000 There were people claiming that there were deaths being spuriously attributed to COVID-19 very early on in this pandemic.

00:23:48.000 But thankfully, we know that's not the case because if you take a look at the excess mortality numbers, the number of people who should die every year in the United States, because there's a very normal pattern, you know, normally with this many people in this country, we see an excess starting when COVID started that almost perfectly graphs on to the rising death waves of COVID.

00:24:07.000 I mean, it perfectly tracks on to that.

00:24:09.000 I just want to say for you, Charlie, I think, you know, the issue I see here is for me, it's, I can't trust or distrust.

00:24:15.000 I don't know.

00:24:16.000 You know, I think Brett Weinstein's a very smart guy, and I don't think he's going to lie to me.

00:24:20.000 And these doctors are very smart people.

00:24:21.000 Then I see the government agencies that, you know, I don't always trust the government, being completely honest.

00:24:26.000 I'm not a big fan.

00:24:27.000 But to believe that there's like a nefarious effort or anything like that, ultimately what it comes down to is, in my opinion, having a trusted medical professional that you can consult with.

00:24:35.000 Well, I totally agree.

00:24:36.000 And I think there could be an argument that if you're over the age of 70, that this vaccine might be a really good idea for you.

00:24:42.000 However, to mandate it for schools and for colleges, when these are highly complex medical decisions, that's where I'm going to push back against it.

00:24:50.000 Well, we're going to go ahead and do that.

00:24:52.000 Let me know.

00:24:53.000 The Johnson and Johnson vaccine is not an mRNA vaccine, though.

00:24:57.000 That's my understanding.

00:24:59.000 I don't want to speak out of turn.

00:25:00.000 I believe so.

00:25:02.000 I would love to be fact-checked on that.

00:25:04.000 I'm not totally sure.

00:25:04.000 My memory is.

00:25:06.000 I guess another question I have, what do you think of alternative type treatments, hydroxychloroquine, ivermectin?

00:25:12.000 Why the push for mass inoculation?

00:25:14.000 Well, because, well, hydroxychloroquine studies have found it largely ineffective.

00:25:17.000 There was, I believe, a French study that stopped when people started dying of heart failure.

00:25:22.000 I think the only reason the right dies in this hill is because Trump mentioned it.

00:25:24.000 I don't think there'd be a push for it otherwise.

00:25:27.000 The vaccines are the effective way of getting mass populations inoculated.

00:25:30.000 And while it is true that most of the people who die are ancient, the fact remains that people experience long-term side effects from getting COVID, even if they survive.

00:25:39.000 I know people who are in their 30s, and me, a blistering 27-year-old myself, I'm not especially worried, but I've heard them talk about how much harder it is for them to climb up flights of stairs.

00:25:48.000 I know that erectile dysfunction, fellas, is one of the listed potential side effects of getting COVID, even young, healthy, no other problems.

00:25:55.000 It is true that death is most comorbid with age and pre-existing conditions, but still, and that's not even to speak of the COVID variants.

00:26:05.000 I mean, right now we're on, what, Delta?

00:26:07.000 But if it keeps cycling around the world, let it go for another year.

00:26:10.000 Who knows how bad this could get?

00:26:12.000 So Johnson ⁇ Johnson is not an mRNA vaccine.

00:26:15.000 So there's an alternative to mRNA if you're concerned about it.

00:26:18.000 There was some guidance with the nerve disease with that.

00:26:20.000 Sorry to interrupt.

00:26:22.000 I do think we kind of overlooked something really interesting: when did we mandate vaccinations in public schools?

00:26:29.000 Well, I know the Supreme Court case concerning this was in 1904.

00:26:32.000 So I would know it would have to have been earlier than that.

00:26:34.000 I know that Washington even had his troops vaccinated, though, I forget.

00:26:37.000 For smallpox.

00:26:38.000 Smallpox, was it?

00:26:39.000 Yeah.

00:26:39.000 Which is pretty crazy to think about.

00:26:40.000 Inoculated, not vaccinated.

00:26:42.000 You're right.

00:26:42.000 I don't know what they did, hit people with a rock and then like a huge.

00:26:44.000 It was like a needle, I think.

00:26:46.000 It was.

00:26:47.000 And they would prick you with the needle that had a weakened sample or something.

00:26:50.000 And they would have had to forge that needle, like with a blacksmith. 0.72

00:26:53.000 Isn't that crazy to think about?

00:26:54.000 Like Washington's true.

00:26:56.000 They still, I know, like someone pouring it and then like, you know, today it's just a machine that makes it.

00:27:01.000 It's just wild to think about.

00:27:02.000 Well, so, man, I think the real issue, for the most part, is just mandatory.

00:27:09.000 Well, I just also have another question.

00:27:11.000 Do you think that there might be any bad motives behind these four companies, AstraZeneca, Moderna, Pfizer, and Johnson ⁇ Johnson, considering they are big pharma and they pursue profits, which generally as a libertarian socialist, you're skeptical of.

00:27:26.000 Do you think maybe they might have nefarious motives?

00:27:28.000 Oh, their intentions are reprehensible.

00:27:30.000 They have for many years made money off the backs of American deaths.

00:27:33.000 The opioid crisis is almost entirely attributable to them.

00:27:36.000 And the Zackler family.

00:27:37.000 Yeah, I mean, no moral love for these companies.

00:27:40.000 If this could be, and by the way, the mRNA process was developed through public funding.

00:27:43.000 It was, you know, an effort invested in by the collective good, something I'm generally supportive of.

00:27:48.000 When it comes to these companies themselves, and when I say, you know, go get your Pfizer vaccine, whatever, please do not mistake this or anything else that I say for an endorsement of the practices of these companies.

00:27:57.000 It is only through cruel twist of fate and the economic system we live in that they are the ones put in a position to handle this.

00:28:04.000 But it was the workers at those companies, not the CEOs, who did the work.

00:28:07.000 I'm just curious, does that ever make you stop short and say, huh, maybe they're trying to massively inoculate us on a vaccine that might not be as effective to try to pursue profit, not well-being?

00:28:18.000 Does that ever enter into your consideration?

00:28:22.000 It's a consideration you should take about anything produced by any company that's run for profit, which is everything.

00:28:29.000 Basically, every need in American society need is tempered by the knowledge that there are people out there who are paid very large salaries to sell it to you.

00:28:37.000 This is the case for everything we do, everything we eat.

00:28:39.000 Every time you run down Main Street, or in my case, I guess, you know, the boulevards in Los Angeles, you're seeing the protracted efforts of a billion-dollar industry to make sure you want things they're selling.

00:28:51.000 Could that be the case for COVID?

00:28:53.000 Undeniably, there was a profit incentive involved.

00:28:56.000 I'm sorry.

00:28:56.000 Oh, my goodness.

00:28:57.000 And there was probably a protracted effort on the part of these companies to make sure they were the first, and they probably took every dirty advantage they could.

00:29:03.000 But with the data available, I have to still, much as I would say, hey, I would prefer eating McDonald's food to starvation.

00:29:11.000 I have to say this is probably still something we should be doing.

00:29:15.000 Do you want to do, I don't want to stay, it's been 20 minutes.

00:29:17.000 No, for sure.

00:29:18.000 Do you want to make a final point?

00:29:19.000 Maybe you would starve and stuff.

00:29:20.000 I actually think this has been really constructive and not like that, you know, inflammatory.

00:29:25.000 I think that deep down you have this kind of urge that I'm already there where maybe they want this thing to go on for another decade to go make another $100 billion.

00:29:35.000 And maybe the cheap drug of hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin might work better than they might think.

00:29:40.000 I don't have that urge.

00:29:43.000 Other studies would disagree with you earlier.

00:29:44.000 We could change the topic.

00:29:46.000 I just think it's so I'll meet in the middle on that one, on that very last one.

00:29:51.000 I do not trust the pharmaceutical industries, though the available evidence does seem to point to the effectiveness of the vaccines.

00:29:57.000 I say this.

00:29:58.000 Nationalize the pharma industry.

00:29:59.000 Seriously.

00:30:00.000 It can be used for the collective good.

00:30:02.000 And I would unironically actually trust it more in the hands of our ineffective, bloated government than I would the sociopaths who run it currently.

00:30:09.000 So I'll wrap this up by saying, always talk to your doctor.

00:30:14.000 This is one of the biggest things.

00:30:15.000 Like YouTube is very strict on this, especially.

00:30:17.000 But I genuinely think this is the right answer.

00:30:18.000 If you're watching this, don't assume anyone here is right or wrong.

00:30:22.000 I mean, I'm sure there are people who think Charlie's made a bunch of good points and you have.

00:30:25.000 Ultimately, it's down between you and your doctor.

00:30:28.000 And I'll stress, you know, for whatever your opinion, Charlie, I understand.

00:30:32.000 Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin haven't been approved by the FDA.

00:30:35.000 And so that's just another argument.

00:30:36.000 We're just asking questions whether it works or not.

00:30:38.000 So that's why I think it's really important because I think there are, I got to be honest, in regards to ivermectin, people have been eating horse paste that they sell.

00:30:47.000 I looked up what the FDA says about it.

00:30:49.000 They say, do not do this.

00:30:50.000 And they actually give a very good reason.

00:30:51.000 They say, although people are claiming that, you know, if an animal can take it, someone else can, that's not true.

00:30:56.000 There are some things that dogs can't have that humans can.

00:30:58.000 So please talk to your doctor.

00:31:00.000 And I definitely hope we can continue having questions, debates about this stuff because that was vastly important.

00:31:07.000 I'm really glad you guys were able to take that conversation.

00:31:09.000 I hadn't even heard of the horse paste thing.

00:31:10.000 Yes, ivermectin is technically a drug for horses.

00:31:13.000 It's off-label use.

00:31:14.000 Oh.

00:31:14.000 Yeah, it's a dewormer.

00:31:15.000 And so you can go to like tractor supply and they have them, they have a sign that says like, do not eat this.

00:31:19.000 And please don't.

00:31:20.000 Any drug for horses will burn a human out from the inside.

00:31:23.000 Those things are.

00:31:24.000 You've been to your horse.

00:31:25.000 They're titans.

00:31:27.000 So let's talk about the other big topic, critical race theory.

00:31:31.000 You know, that's the one that I had a terrible answer, absolutely, when you asked me about it.

00:31:36.000 And it was because I think my approach to it was too surface-level cultural.

00:31:40.000 So the last time we had Voshan, when you asked me about it, I couldn't give you a good answer.

00:31:43.000 And I think we can talk about what's happening in schools, the things they're teaching children.

00:31:48.000 And I don't know if either of you has an opinion and wants to start off with.

00:31:51.000 Laura's yours.

00:31:52.000 Yeah.

00:31:52.000 So there are two CRTs.

00:31:53.000 There's the critical race theory that I know of, which is a highly esoteric, essentially elective class that you can take in some law schools that teaches you a variety of incredibly eclectic legal theories that I, some of which I like and some of which I think I disagree with.

00:32:07.000 And then there's the critical race theory that people like Christopher Ruffo have been trying to push, a sort of catch-all term to describe all anti-racism.

00:32:14.000 We see these anti-CRT bills being put through straight legislators, and a lot of them don't even mention critical race theory.

00:32:20.000 They mention stuff that's been boilerplate anti-racist theory for like two centuries.

00:32:24.000 That stuff really concerns me.

00:32:26.000 If I think that academia is to an extent sacred, of course, all the good things in our society now were born in the halls of academia.

00:32:32.000 The Enlightenment, our democracy, the fair trial that we enjoy if we're arrested.

00:32:37.000 These were things that were originally considered to be the crackpot initiatives of academics.

00:32:40.000 And only through the respect of those ideas have we arrived at, well, what we have today.

00:32:45.000 So if there are problems within academia, I would have them solved in academia, not through the big hand of government reaching in and censoring everyone who says something that disagrees with some political party.

00:32:55.000 So a point of clarification, you don't believe that critical race theory is in schools.

00:32:59.000 I think that maybe there are ideas which overlap with critical race theory, but there's always going to be overlap between academic ideas.

00:33:06.000 I mean, you know, I drank water, so did Hitler, one of those type situations. 0.91

00:33:11.000 I think you're coming at it in good faith where you're technically correct here that the super academic way of defining critical race theory is not being taught to fourth graders, right?

00:33:23.000 With that being said, there are, it's almost like saying, you know, we're not teaching advanced geometry to fourth graders, but we are teaching them, you know, very basic math, right?

00:33:33.000 We'll get them the Euclidean geometry.

00:33:35.000 So the very basics of this are definitely in schools.

00:33:38.000 And there's many examples of this, right?

00:33:40.000 The National Education Association literally came out in their press release and said that they are going to push for, and their word was critical race theory.

00:33:49.000 Just so we're clear, they use that term, right?

00:33:51.000 That's not Christopher Rufo.

00:33:53.000 That's not James Lindsay, who are good friends of mine.

00:33:55.000 That's the National Education Association, right?

00:33:58.000 And I think they might even be talking about something different than the Delgado theory of critical race theory, right?

00:34:05.000 And so what I want to try to do here, Tim, is we can talk about critical race theory as an academic theory, or we could use a filler term like wokeism, which is more like racial justice, which I actually think would probably be, you know, we can call it racial justice and meet in the middle.

00:34:19.000 I mean, I really feel like there are probably a four-digit number of people in America who are studied on actual critical race theory.

00:34:26.000 Not including myself.

00:34:27.000 And I'm not even prepared to do that.

00:34:29.000 But I'm happy to talk about racial justice education and wokeism, which I think.

00:34:35.000 Well, I think you guys actually agree, in essence, that the academic critical race theory is there's overlap with a component in schools.

00:34:43.000 But what we often hear is someone will say, critical race theory is being taught to my kids.

00:34:48.000 And then someone will say, cite one author of critical race theory that we've brought up in school.

00:34:52.000 And the issue is we refer to it as it's, I believe it's called critical race praxis.

00:34:57.000 So this is something different than critical race theory.

00:34:59.000 It's being implemented in education.

00:35:01.000 But that's why you said wokeism.

00:35:03.000 And I just think that discussion is so unhelpful when Joy Reed and Christopher Ruffo are screaming at each other and Joy Reed is saying like it's not being taught anywhere, Christopher Rufo.

00:35:12.000 So yes, it is, when in reality, they're both right.

00:35:15.000 They're just talking about two completely different things.

00:35:16.000 You know what I'm saying?

00:35:17.000 Well, no, I do.

00:35:18.000 And Christopher Ruffo has admitted this is like a kind of tactic.

00:35:20.000 Critical race theory does sound spooky.

00:35:22.000 You know, I get a little shiver when I say it.

00:35:25.000 Whereas stuff like anti-racist theory or structural racism maybe compel a little bit more thought when discussed on it.

00:35:31.000 It's kind of a moral panic that in principle I really disagree with.

00:35:35.000 But if you want to talk, I mean, we can call it wokeism if you want.

00:35:38.000 That's probably a more accurate term.

00:35:40.000 I will just say to the point about Christopher Ruffo, white supremacist is also used as a catch-all term in the other direction.

00:35:47.000 If we're talking, I mean, in academia, the term white supremacist is virtually never used.

00:35:50.000 It's sort of a common parlance.

00:35:53.000 What I will say, though, about to give credit to Christopher Ruffo is that this is all kind of downstream from the conversation that Marcuse and Delgado started.

00:36:02.000 Well, let's talk about it then.

00:36:02.000 It really is.

00:36:03.000 But just one thing, though, since we're operating under the blanket wokeism, which is really broad term, let's talk about like specific ideas because I'm sure there are some of them that I can provide a good defense for, and some of them are.

00:36:14.000 So, how about black-only dormitories?

00:36:17.000 Generally, not a fan.

00:36:18.000 I think that I don't think they're like explicitly harmful in the same way that traditional segregation is, but I also think that it incentivizes bad types of socialization where the way that you get a reprieve from the faults of society is to find comfort in people of your own race.

00:36:34.000 Maybe that incentivizes some bad stuff.

00:36:36.000 In my university, we had safe spaces, but you know what they were?

00:36:39.000 They were like chilled coffee break rooms behind like Latin.

00:36:44.000 I went to Humboldt State.

00:36:45.000 Okay.

00:36:46.000 Right behind there.

00:36:47.000 And like anyone could go in there, whatever. 0.99

00:36:48.000 Just the only thing that they asked was that you not be like a dick. 0.99

00:36:52.000 But as long as you met that qualification, that was fine. 0.99

00:36:54.000 That to me, that's a good safe space.

00:36:55.000 Maybe that works, you know?

00:36:57.000 So just have to go through more.

00:36:59.000 Go for it, please.

00:37:00.000 No, I just, I think this is actually really helpful.

00:37:03.000 So how about reparations for slavery?

00:37:07.000 I think I'm pretty in favor of that, yeah.

00:37:08.000 Okay.

00:37:09.000 Make the argument.

00:37:10.000 It's just an owed debt.

00:37:11.000 We said 40 acres and a mule.

00:37:13.000 We never paid it.

00:37:14.000 And unfortunately, the material reality for a lot of people who were slaves didn't change that much after they were emancipated.

00:37:19.000 I mean, if you were a slave and you're made free, that's a big step up, don't get me wrong, but you have nothing.

00:37:25.000 I mean, nothing.

00:37:26.000 And because of the way generational wealth transfers from father to son or mother to either to anyone to their children, yeah, caught me there.

00:37:35.000 Unfortunately, we still see the consequences of that borne out.

00:37:37.000 You can actually look county by county.

00:37:39.000 Where were slaves kept?

00:37:41.000 Which were the plantation counties?

00:37:43.000 And you see, oh, this group of black neighborhoods, that's where they settled after slavery ended.

00:37:49.000 It's like really immediate stuff, and it's a debt owe that this nation never paid.

00:37:53.000 I don't necessarily agree in reparations, but I think we need to clarify what that ultimately means.

00:37:57.000 But I will say I've long held the same position.

00:38:00.000 I actually worked on a documentary.

00:38:02.000 There's an issue of people who were enslaved, then they were released and they were not given any means to actually develop and grow.

00:38:10.000 And so there's a general way, there's a generational wealth gap between people based on race for these historical reasons.

00:38:16.000 The challenge I see, I suppose, is, you know, we've done a lot to amend the laws and change them.

00:38:21.000 For instance, redlining and blockbusting have become illegal.

00:38:24.000 And now we're dealing with an ultimately, I believe, is a class issue.

00:38:27.000 Of course, racism still exists.

00:38:28.000 But anyway, I digress on that point.

00:38:29.000 What I wanted to get to is specifically on reparations.

00:38:33.000 What do you view reparations as, more importantly?

00:38:36.000 So this is a big divide.

00:38:38.000 Some people think like cash payments.

00:38:40.000 I'm not a big fan of that.

00:38:41.000 It doesn't fix the problem, for one.

00:38:44.000 You can put money into that community, but there's been research done on how long a dollar stays in a black neighborhood as opposed to a white neighborhood. 0.57

00:38:50.000 And if a black neighborhood, all of the businesses are owned by corporate boards that are all majority white, eventually the money filters out and you get a very temporary boost in living situation, not much long-term structural change. 0.77

00:39:01.000 I'm a big fan of structural reparations, not based on race, but rather based on targeting neighborhoods that need it the most.

00:39:07.000 Some of these neighborhoods are like white.

00:39:09.000 I passed through some of them on my way out from Ronald Reagan Airport.

00:39:12.000 I can tell which parts of this country, you can see it in the bones of the neighborhood.

00:39:17.000 And I think that a new proper reparations project, a new deal, a new new deal even, would go a long way.

00:39:23.000 It's a very important thing.

00:39:24.000 Well, so you're saying not even based on race.

00:39:26.000 I think that we should recognize that this is largely a racial project because unfortunately poverty and race are really intertwined in this country.

00:39:33.000 But in terms of applying it, I think that it would be much more healthy if we treated it like a collective effort to bring up the lowest sort of echelon of our economic.

00:39:42.000 So I want to ask you, Charlie, would you agree with a program that was in, how do I describe this?

00:39:50.000 Explained as reparations, but was not based on race, went to people based on class and neighborhood so that it could help Latinos and white people and Asians and everybody.

00:39:58.000 First of all, I'm against reparations.

00:40:00.000 I just don't like the word because it kind of implies this intergenerational type guilt or allowance that I kind of reject.

00:40:07.000 And I'm happy to build that out further.

00:40:10.000 Do I agree that the question is mostly class?

00:40:12.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:40:14.000 And I think that Vausch is hitting on something.

00:40:16.000 And I think that you're saying that it's inherently racial.

00:40:20.000 I really want to explore that with you because I think that's interesting.

00:40:23.000 I think you're wrong, but I think that's interesting, where I think the racial thing is actually being used to distract people like you and I from actually talking about what's really happening here, which is a small group of people getting a lot richer while normal people get poor.

00:40:36.000 And I think the racial thing is being used as this distraction tool to throw smokescreen in the middle while we're talking about something that we're never really going to have consensus on when the true struggle right now is mainly economic.

00:40:49.000 Yeah.

00:40:49.000 Well, I think that applying reparations along racial lines runs into a bunch of really tough issues.

00:40:55.000 Which neighborhoods do you go by like blood?

00:40:58.000 Like, can you prove your great-great-grandfather was slave?

00:41:01.000 It gets very difficult very quickly.

00:41:02.000 Maybe that would be the most direct interpretation of generational reparations.

00:41:06.000 But in my mind, the reason why it's important to recognize the racial issue here is that the nature of class divides in this country is cut into racial policy prior to the Civil Rights Act.

00:41:18.000 The redlining that took place, lines which still remain not in law, but in practice, led to very distinct, I mean, sometimes, you know, one side of the highway is nice and the other side of the highway, I mean, a legitimately.

00:41:29.000 Can I just jump in real quick?

00:41:31.000 I'm from Chicago.

00:41:31.000 47th Street was split by race.

00:41:34.000 No joke.

00:41:35.000 This is long-standing effects on the city, just to point out.

00:41:39.000 No, and I grew up in L.A. and on either side of the five, which cut through the city, I mean, or the 405, sorry.

00:41:45.000 Let me just interject something too.

00:41:47.000 And I don't know if you're familiar.

00:41:48.000 We were actually told that we would be arrested from the south side of 47th.

00:41:52.000 If we crossed 47th, we would get arrested because the cops would pull up and say, you don't live in this neighborhood.

00:41:57.000 What are you doing here?

00:41:58.000 I'm from the suburbs of Chicago.

00:42:00.000 So I've heard stories like that.

00:42:02.000 I haven't been serious.

00:42:04.000 Very clear to say I'm not from Chicago.

00:42:05.000 I grew up in Beverly Hills, which is close, though, to West Hollywood in Koreatown, and the lines are clear as day.

00:42:12.000 The reason I say that, though, about the racial project, is that because explicit discrimination is no longer in the law, we've pretty much wiped that out, with the exception of some, I guess, edge cases.

00:42:24.000 The project of systemic racism or the existence of systemic racism is something which is carried through class by inertia.

00:42:31.000 It isn't something you can explicitly legislate along anymore.

00:42:34.000 I mean, obviously, nobody's out there passing laws like black people can't do this. 0.98

00:42:38.000 That'd be silly. 0.89

00:42:39.000 But instead, the consequences of slavery and of second-class citizenship for black people left unaddressed a wound left to Fester that unfortunately can't really heal itself inertially unless we do something specific. 0.84

00:42:53.000 So the issue with that argument is that the more that we intervened in the black community, it actually had the opposite effect.

00:43:00.000 And Thomas Soule probably has done the best research in literature on this.

00:43:04.000 You can laugh all you want.

00:43:05.000 He's got a critical.

00:43:07.000 No, I wasn't trying to besmirch.

00:43:07.000 No, I wasn't.

00:43:09.000 He's a very thoughtful thinker.

00:43:10.000 He actually lived through this, right?

00:43:11.000 He lived through the black renaissance in the 40s and the 50s, where redlining was a legitimate problem.

00:43:18.000 So is yellowlining, by the way, against Italians and against Jews. 0.66

00:43:22.000 Nowhere nearly as bad, but there were other degrees of discrimination based on ethnicity and cultural background.

00:43:28.000 And the black community, especially, you know, the area really well in the south of Chicago, right near the Chicago Stockyards, the black community almost had this rallying cry where they were being discriminated against everywhere and they kind of collectivized their purchasing power and they saw their incomes increase actually at a higher rate than white Americans in the 40s and 50s and early 60s.

00:43:50.000 You heard this argument many times and you probably disagree with it, but it's just true, is that the moment that we all of a sudden de-emphasized fathers being in the home and subsidized fatherlessness, we saw all these other trends increase.

00:44:04.000 So in the 19, right before the Civil Rights Act passed, about 24% of black children were born without a father.

00:44:14.000 Now it's upwards of 70%.

00:44:16.000 You guys can look at the Washington Examiner.

00:44:17.000 It's 77%.

00:44:19.000 Let's say it's 65%.

00:44:21.000 So something has to explain that 40-point increase.

00:44:25.000 Yeah, just let me finish.

00:44:26.000 And it's just, it's not necessarily that America got more racist.

00:44:26.000 Yeah.

00:44:30.000 It could be the cocaine thing, which, you know, is a common issue.

00:44:35.000 It could be operations of all these things.

00:44:37.000 But a 40-point increase, I would point to a culture of fatherlessness, really bad government-run public schools, and then subsidizing behavior that isn't good.

00:44:47.000 So there are a few things that I can agree with you on.

00:44:50.000 First of all, having two people in your house to raise you is pretty much essential.

00:44:53.000 You absolutely are.

00:44:54.000 I'm glad we agree.

00:44:55.000 This is undeniable.

00:44:57.000 While I don't believe in shaming single parents, even if their single-parentedness is bad decision-making, it's still good.

00:45:05.000 In this economy, one parent, honestly.

00:45:07.000 But with that being said, there has been research shown that the rate of black fatherlessness is somewhat over-exaggerated, in large part because that number only applies to married fathers.

00:45:19.000 So husbands raising their children.

00:45:21.000 It turns out when you account for unmarried black couples taking care of their kids, the numbers actually rise to those just, I think, just below white couples.

00:45:29.000 I think there was an article on that.

00:45:30.000 I don't know if I remember Satan Vice, but it tracks back to some really big study that was done back in 2016.

00:45:36.000 So that's one point.

00:45:37.000 But you are right.

00:45:38.000 There are perverse incentives.

00:45:40.000 For example, many welfare stipulations cut off with a shared income, which is only a few thousand dollars per year higher than the necessary cutoff for the single income, meaning that if you're a single mom, you can apply for the welfare just fine.

00:45:56.000 But then if you get married or otherwise file jointly, you go above the cap for welfare.

00:46:01.000 This is a horribly designed program, undeniably, and it incentivizes bad, destructive behavior.

00:46:06.000 The best thing that we can do, we restructure the welfare system in this country.

00:46:11.000 Welfare is good for us. 0.98

00:46:12.000 It is.

00:46:13.000 I don't benefit from it.

00:46:14.000 No, I don't think either of you benefit from it, I'm guessing.

00:46:18.000 But we do collectively downstream from the increased economic potential of people who now have the money to afford daycare, proper childcare, get an education.

00:46:28.000 In the long run, people in this country being richer enriches all of us.

00:46:31.000 It's a mutual project.

00:46:33.000 So we work on that.

00:46:34.000 We find out what works and what doesn't, which welfare programs function, which don't, which types of economic revitalization function and which don't.

00:46:40.000 And I legitimately believe that if we applied this, this country has the bones to be just a permanent economic beacon on the hill, just like a shiny example to the rest of the world.

00:46:50.000 I agree with a lot of that.

00:46:51.000 The bigger issue with the racial thing is that when you put some of these factors in even the present data, it doesn't pan out on racial lines, right?

00:47:00.000 And this is where I think you'll agree because you just said two parents in the home is a good thing, which we totally agree on.

00:47:05.000 I think that's the ideal.

00:47:06.000 Everything shows that that is something that we should push for.

00:47:10.000 Three parents maybe.

00:47:11.000 Get even better.

00:47:12.000 Oh, yeah.

00:47:13.000 Yeah, polyamorous relationships.

00:47:14.000 Yeah.

00:47:15.000 Not a fan.

00:47:16.000 I will say that if you look at the data from the government, that a white child being raised by a single mother is less likely to succeed by 10 independently picked metrics than a black child being raised by a mother and a father. 0.57

00:47:30.000 And so maybe it's less about the skin color and more about the removal of parents and specifically fathers in the homes. 0.64

00:47:38.000 Now, if you want to talk about a domestic Marshall Plan to go put fathers back in the home regardless of skin color, I will sign up for that in a second. 0.99

00:47:46.000 With the right welfare, the right systems, I think people will tend to their own family.

00:47:49.000 But that would then all of a sudden de-emphasize what you said earlier, where it says it needs to be on racial lines, where I say, no, no, it needs to be on nuclear family lines.

00:47:56.000 Well, no, I think that the neighborhood revitalization should just be on like a sort of class assessment.

00:48:01.000 I think that when we recognize this problem, though, there are so many trends when it comes to poverty that involve the discussion of race, you know?

00:48:08.000 And there are some which do not.

00:48:10.000 There are some types of poverty, some effects that are just ubiquitous and equally felt.

00:48:15.000 But with regards to, say, you know, black people, the fact that they couldn't get loans to purchase homes for a very long time.

00:48:21.000 I mean, there are people living who couldn't do this.

00:48:23.000 The fact that they didn't benefit from the Marshall Plan, if I remember correctly, after World War II.

00:48:28.000 The Marshall Plan was Europe.

00:48:28.000 You're talking about the GI bill.

00:48:30.000 Sorry, the GI bill, my apologies.

00:48:31.000 Let me just point out all these white guys sitting having debate over the black community.

00:48:35.000 I just think that there is a lot of economic inequality.

00:48:38.000 A lot of it's tied to race, but we don't need to turn this into some weird blood quantum issue where we go tracking down every black American and holding them under a microscope to see whether they get benefits.

00:48:47.000 We just need to tend to our own.

00:48:48.000 This is where we kind of got off critical race theory very quickly.

00:48:52.000 I forgot about that.

00:48:53.000 I want to bring it back.

00:48:54.000 We're agreeing way too much, Tim.

00:48:56.000 Well, because this is one of the issues I see, right?

00:48:59.000 You see these conversations around, I don't know how you describe it because it's a variety of things.

00:49:06.000 Wokeism is typically a catch-all term for some kind of ideology that involves anti-racism, which involves critical race theory, critical race practice.

00:49:14.000 And you're seeing in schools specific curriculums where they say to kids, like, we had a book here.

00:49:20.000 We had a book brought to us by one of these parents who's been going to these schools, and it was an anti-racist curriculum workbook where it asked you, asked children why they thought that black children felt bad about their skin color.

00:49:33.000 Now, I take issue with those things.

00:49:34.000 They had another book where it was a little girl yelling at her mother saying you were lying to me about race.

00:49:40.000 And then there was a whiteness contract with a devil tail coming out of it. 0.97

00:49:43.000 Okay, I saw that one.

00:49:44.000 Yeah, these are in schools.

00:49:45.000 So that the whiteness devil tail thing, I saw that. 0.96

00:49:45.000 Yeah, okay. 0.96

00:49:48.000 That's indefensible.

00:49:48.000 I'm not going to stand at that.

00:49:50.000 With regards to that, what was it?

00:49:51.000 The why do you think black folk feel bad about their skin?

00:49:53.000 And I'll be careful because I don't have the book in front of me.

00:49:56.000 It was something to this effect.

00:49:57.000 It was a bunch of questions where it would ask you things like that and then ask you to answer.

00:50:01.000 You know, what have you done to make someone based on their skin color behave or whatever and things of that nature?

00:50:08.000 I think these are conversations that are worth having.

00:50:11.000 I wonder with regards to what you're saying, do you know what grade level these were at?

00:50:17.000 I think she mentioned the woman, it was Osra.

00:50:21.000 Yeah, Osra.

00:50:22.000 I think fourth grade.

00:50:22.000 Yeah, that's what I heard.

00:50:23.000 But I got to be honest, like the anti-racist one didn't have any pictures or anything.

00:50:28.000 It was just questions.

00:50:29.000 And I think she mentioned it was in a third grade.

00:50:32.000 What was it called?

00:50:33.000 What was the book called about the whiteness contract?

00:50:35.000 The one you said was indefensible.

00:50:36.000 That one was like a little girl who looked to be about like eight years old.

00:50:40.000 Yeah, I saw that online.

00:50:41.000 I asked a question.

00:50:42.000 So let's go to just piece, you know, Iber Mex Kendi, who's kind of one of the, you know, archangels of the wokeism movement.

00:50:50.000 Beloved figure in the minds of conservatives and liberals.

00:50:53.000 So Ibermax Kendi, and I'm paraphrasing, and you guys could pick up the quote, is that we need discrimination today because there is discrimination yesterday.

00:51:00.000 That's the essence of the quote, right, Tim?

00:51:02.000 Yeah, he said, the only solution for past discrimination is present discrimination, and the only solution for present discrimination is future discrimination.

00:51:09.000 So I find that to be reprehensible.

00:51:12.000 I think it's misguided in large part because I don't believe if there was some God who could just distribute all resources in a perfectly ordained way and did so at the snap of a finger, then maybe that would be a decent argument.

00:51:12.000 What say you?

00:51:22.000 In the real world, we have to go through politics.

00:51:24.000 And any kind of discriminatory treatment under any circumstances, no matter how well-intentioned, is going to have adverse effects.

00:51:30.000 So, with regard to what he said, there is a very charitable interpretation.

00:51:34.000 And that charitable interpretation is discriminatory practices in the past necessitate favorable practices today, a way of bringing people up.

00:51:42.000 My reparations argument, I mean, the poor in this country have always had it bad, at least worse than they could otherwise.

00:51:48.000 That is essentially a version of that argument.

00:51:50.000 Preferable treatment towards the poor.

00:51:51.000 We do this with welfare, because there are systemic barriers keeping them from full participation along racial lines.

00:51:58.000 I don't even know what that would look like.

00:52:00.000 I don't even know how that would look good.

00:52:02.000 He wrote a big fan of that.

00:52:03.000 He wrote an amendment, right, called the Anti-Racist Amendment to the Constitution.

00:52:07.000 It's not being considered anytime soon.

00:52:09.000 Where it would be preference.

00:52:10.000 You'll see.

00:52:11.000 Biden will get it.

00:52:12.000 Based on skin color, that there would be some sort of accommodation based just by the melanin content in your skin.

00:52:12.000 Yeah.

00:52:19.000 Yeah.

00:52:19.000 There is one thing I want to say, though, and this is common in upper academia.

00:52:22.000 And I know Igram sometimes gets brought into non-academic discussions, which I don't consider myself an academic, so I'm including myself in that.

00:52:30.000 But sometimes I think these are fun to discuss, these ideas.

00:52:33.000 What I noticed, at least in some of the classes that I took, the higher-end classes, you know, was that sometimes when you were presented ideas, they were presented not to have you agree with them, but rather to incentivize the greatest discussion.

00:52:45.000 For example, I wasn't an economist, but I did learn about Karl Marx.

00:52:49.000 Now, not many professors are actual Marxists, unfortunately.

00:52:53.000 So when Marx was brought up in that context, it wasn't like, here's what you need to know, here's what you should believe.

00:53:00.000 It was more, here are some ideas, radical and agreeable.

00:53:04.000 What do you think about them?

00:53:06.000 And when I look at what Kendi has written, I think I don't often agree with some of the more radical propositions, but I do enjoy the process.

00:53:14.000 And I don't think that's something which should warrant the state intervening to cut out those discussions.

00:53:20.000 I think that's a brutish response.

00:53:22.000 That's a great segue, if I could go.

00:53:23.000 So the next question then is: should we be teaching first and second and third graders to be hyper-conscious aware of race all the time?

00:53:31.000 I think that's destructive.

00:53:33.000 I think it goes against the American promise of e pluribus unum, of caring more about character than skin color.

00:53:39.000 And yes, Martin Luther King Jr. was a mixed bag when it came to this stuff.

00:53:42.000 He's a cool guy.

00:53:43.000 But he was a very radical socialist in some regard, but he really hit it perfectly when he said that this was the ideal of the American system.

00:53:54.000 Do you see any downsides to getting three-year-olds just caring, not three-year-olds, third graders caring about the color of people's skin all the time?

00:54:01.000 Well, I think depending on their environment, they might all men might already, whether they know it or not, in very implicit and subtle ways.

00:54:07.000 We know from tests done, for example, on like little, little kids, like four-year-olds or whatever, that some elements of implicit racial bias already infect their thinking.

00:54:15.000 Now, that isn't a moral judgment.

00:54:17.000 We are all flawed beings.

00:54:18.000 We live and we die.

00:54:19.000 We all have biases.

00:54:21.000 That is just a part of life.

00:54:23.000 But I think conversations about those things can be valuable.

00:54:26.000 I don't believe we live in a colorblind world.

00:54:28.000 So teaching people that we do can often lead them to remain ignorant to evident problems.

00:54:34.000 Now, to what extent would you be comfortable, what would you say, like bringing a racial consciousness to third graders?

00:54:42.000 For me, very little to none.

00:54:43.000 As don't care about it, de-emphasize it, look at the spirit, the soul, the conduct, and the character of the human being.

00:54:49.000 Their skin color means nothing. 1.00

00:54:51.000 Not saying that you should start to emphasize, organize what people look like, because therefore it means something that we're going to tell you.

00:55:00.000 A great example is that this is the textbook definition of stereotyping, right?

00:55:05.000 Is that when if you see a black person, you don't know their history.

00:55:08.000 You don't know if they're the son of a Nigerian billionaire.

00:55:11.000 You don't know if they're an immigrant from Turks and Caicos, and you don't know if they're the ninth generation descendant of slaves, right?

00:55:17.000 There's been 2 million blacks that have come to America legally through the immigration process since 1980.

00:55:23.000 So, this sort of hyper-fixation on race, and I want to keep on getting back to this because I'm just curious, is do you think this is actually helpful when there actually might be stuff that 90% of the country agrees on?

00:55:35.000 Do you think this actually might be a smokescreen tactic?

00:55:37.000 Well, it really depends on what's being taught.

00:55:39.000 So, here are some things I obviously don't want taught.

00:55:42.000 One group is better than another, of course. 0.99

00:55:45.000 Black people are like this, white people are like this. 1.00

00:55:47.000 That is being taught in some schools. 0.99

00:55:49.000 There are some schools that do that.

00:55:50.000 And while I would look to see their curriculum mended, I don't, again, I just don't want to implicitly agree with like a state ban.

00:55:58.000 I would see adjustment done.

00:56:00.000 But there are some things that I think could be done well.

00:56:02.000 For example, say you're teaching about very basic early history.

00:56:05.000 This is where I wanted to get to.

00:56:06.000 Yeah, okay.

00:56:07.000 So, here are some things about America's founding that I like.

00:56:11.000 One of the first practical liberal democracies, Glory of the Republic.

00:56:14.000 Folks had nice hair back then.

00:56:15.000 Not democracy, but a republic.

00:56:17.000 Right.

00:56:17.000 I mean, you know, they're not mutually exclusive.

00:56:19.000 And we, of course, did more to fulfill the promise of a democracy with time.

00:56:23.000 But obviously, when America was founded, it was a slave state. 0.64

00:56:27.000 One in every six people in America at that time was human property.

00:56:32.000 Can I ask you a question?

00:56:33.000 Sure.

00:56:33.000 How many states had abolished slavery by the time the Constitution is ratified?

00:56:37.000 Well, I don't know the exact number.

00:56:38.000 Nine out of 13.

00:56:39.000 That's not a slave country. 0.92

00:56:40.000 Well, then you could say it was a Confederacy with portions that were slaves.

00:56:44.000 I think that's better said.

00:56:45.000 Nine out of 13 had already abolished.

00:56:47.000 There was a sunset moratorium for slavery in the Constitution.

00:56:50.000 So this could...

00:56:51.000 Vermont abolished slavery in 1777.

00:56:53.000 We were on the way to eradication.

00:56:54.000 We were not a slave country.

00:56:55.000 Well, hold on.

00:56:56.000 And I'll add one thing.

00:56:57.000 We were on the way, but then like 80 years later, it was still a very important thing.

00:57:00.000 So the question is why, right?

00:57:02.000 That's a really important question.

00:57:04.000 Economics, I know.

00:57:04.000 Well, yeah, so Cotton Gen and John C. Calhoun will help me to go through that.

00:57:09.000 There was actually a grievance in the Declaration of Independence, specifically that the crown had enslaved people.

00:57:16.000 In the first draft.

00:57:17.000 In the first draft from Thomas Jefferson.

00:57:18.000 The Crown had enslaved people who had done nothing to offend the Crown, brought them to the states, and then were then offering them the freedom that was stolen from them to wage war against the colonists who had grievances.

00:57:30.000 It's an effective strategy.

00:57:31.000 The Union did it too.

00:57:32.000 They promised the slaves when they moved southward. 0.61

00:57:34.000 Jefferson took that out, and he did it because they felt, and this is according to historians, that without, I think it was South Carolina and Georgia, they would not have been able to win the Revolutionary War.

00:57:45.000 And so they had to remove that, hoping they would stay in.

00:57:48.000 Now, the reality is, let me just, I'll just say one more point.

00:57:52.000 They thought they were going to lose anyway.

00:57:53.000 They really did.

00:57:54.000 They didn't think they could go up against the greatest empire in the world at the time.

00:57:58.000 So it's kind of unfortunate, I think.

00:58:00.000 An important factor here is that I believe it was the British Empire, actually, 1833 had abolished slavery in all of its territories.

00:58:08.000 And it took the U.S. a little bit longer to do so.

00:58:10.000 But I want to make sure I stress this issue for the start of the country was contentious and ultimately led to violence because from the beginning, as Charlie pointed out, most of the states had already abolished this.

00:58:22.000 So it was like people were ready to fight from the beginning.

00:58:24.000 Well, I just want to say to that.

00:58:26.000 My understanding of the founding of America isn't as simplistic as the founding fathers were evil because X or Y.

00:58:32.000 I recognize, of course, that there are incredible complexities to those issues.

00:58:36.000 And also, I'm not a historian.

00:58:38.000 There are probably tons of things out there I don't even know that might change my opinion in the future.

00:58:42.000 But with that being said, while I recognize there were fine-bodied, hearted, and soul Americans who recognized slavery was a moral aberration from the get-go, one in every six Americans was owned.

00:58:55.000 And while that may have been constrained to some of the states, it was still ultimately under the purview of the federal government to make decisions with regards to the legality and constitutionality of that.

00:59:05.000 Now, some people, they get really defensive when this conversation comes.

00:59:09.000 I'm not saying you guys, but some people, they do.

00:59:11.000 And I think it's because they think I'm assigning some kind of moral worth to them now or to the country now or making some kind of broad prescriptive statement.

00:59:18.000 I'm not.

00:59:19.000 The only thing I'm saying is when you're teaching history to a bunch of kids, you know, you have to teach it all.

00:59:24.000 At least you have to teach the basic pointers.

00:59:26.000 And for black Americans, the history of this country has been less than favorable.

00:59:30.000 So I think that in the context of that discussion, saying, and to this day, we still have some problems with race.

00:59:36.000 There are some legacies of slavery that still affect black people, and we're working on it today, something like that.

00:59:42.000 That's a kind of racialization that I'm in favor of because it doesn't encourage stereotyping.

00:59:46.000 It doesn't encourage discrimination.

00:59:48.000 It just encourages a base awareness of some serious problems.

00:59:52.000 So, but that's not happening, right?

00:59:54.000 Is that largely what we're seeing through school districts like Chicago and in Washington, D.C., and the entire California school system representing 10,000 schools and 6 million students?

01:00:06.000 I've seen the documents on this.

01:00:08.000 Yeah, is that it doesn't have that kind of nuance and complexity that you just presented, right?

01:00:13.000 Where it's, let me just say this, is that part of the kind of archangel triumphant of the wokeism coalition is Nicole Hannah Jones, Robin D'Angelo, and Iber Max Kendi.

01:00:23.000 And Nicole Hannah Jones in particular, right, the author of the 1619 project, she heretically says that America was founded on slavery, right?

01:00:32.000 And so part of that.

01:00:34.000 But it's just not true.

01:00:36.000 It depends on what you mean by founded on it.

01:00:38.000 She defines this.

01:00:38.000 She says the founding fathers were in favor of it, not true.

01:00:41.000 George Washington wasn't.

01:00:42.000 John Adams wasn't.

01:00:43.000 John Quincy Adams wasn't.

01:00:45.000 Thomas Jefferson even signed a moratorium of new slaves coming into the United States.

01:00:48.000 Ben Franklin chaired an anti-slavery convention in 1775.

01:00:52.000 None of these guys were writing expositionally of how wonderful slavery is.

01:00:55.000 Well, this isn't being taught to third graders, right?

01:00:57.000 The 1619 Project's a little New York op-ed.

01:01:00.000 No, no, it's not.

01:01:01.000 See, that's where you're wrong.

01:01:02.000 The 1619 Project's being implemented as school district curriculum in thousands of school districts across the country.

01:01:07.000 That's true.

01:01:09.000 It's not just like a podcast.

01:01:10.000 This is curriculum.

01:01:11.000 There are principles of the 1619 Project that I think are defensible. 0.97

01:01:14.000 First of all, we as Americans tend to think of the founding of our country as its legal founding, you know?

01:01:20.000 But the legal founding of the United States didn't really mean much for a slave. 0.97

01:01:24.000 I mean, it really didn't matter that much for the peasantry of the time, no matter what.

01:01:27.000 See, that's where I disagree.

01:01:29.000 So when was the first state to abolish slavery?

01:01:32.000 Vermont in 1777.

01:01:34.000 Well, I mean, for the first time.

01:01:34.000 Why?

01:01:35.000 Because they were inspired by the Declaration of Independence.

01:01:38.000 Things started to change in that year.

01:01:40.000 Right, but the slaves that then continued to be slaves would have been in the states that didn't make that choice, right?

01:01:44.000 Which were largely in southern states.

01:01:46.000 Well, that's what I mean.

01:01:47.000 Sorry, I didn't mean to miss out on the particulars there.

01:01:49.000 The only point that I'm making is that depending on whose lineage you follow, depending on the narrative that you tell, this is a very postmodern idea.

01:01:56.000 And I would like to consider myself charitable to postmodernism, the idea that there are many ways you can describe the human experience, which I think we all believe to some extent.

01:02:05.000 Depending on who you follow, you get very different ideas on what America is when America was founded, not in a legal sense, but in a conceptual sense, and who today holds the birthrights to which they were entitled.

01:02:19.000 And these conversations should be had.

01:02:21.000 They're worthwhile conversations to have.

01:02:23.000 I've seen some of the curriculums in these schools.

01:02:25.000 I find some of them a little bit objectionable.

01:02:27.000 But to be perfectly clear, I found school curriculums objectionable for ages.

01:02:32.000 About half of Americans believe in the lost cause myth, the idea that the North started the Civil War and it was over states' rights or whatever.

01:02:39.000 That's believed by a large number of Americans.

01:02:42.000 There are textbooks put out by Pearson in Texas that have been available to the people.

01:02:44.000 There is some truth to that, by the way.

01:02:46.000 Just so I'm clear.

01:02:47.000 I'm happy to go through Civil War history.

01:02:49.000 Well, let me learn that.

01:02:50.000 I just want to say, I have long had problems with many of the ways children are taught concepts in this country.

01:02:56.000 That's fair.

01:02:56.000 None of them have made me want to get my state legislators to just outright ban all of these ideas.

01:03:01.000 Well, so I'll make two points.

01:03:02.000 First, the 1619 Project is in schools.

01:03:06.000 Newsweek reports, U.S. schools have openly taught the 1619 project for months.

01:03:09.000 This is back in September.

01:03:10.000 We've got Education Next, the 1619 Project Enters Classrooms.

01:03:14.000 We have the Pulitzer Center, the 1619 Project Curriculum.

01:03:17.000 Here you will find resources for teaching 1619 in your schools.

01:03:22.000 And I don't know if I have one more source.

01:03:24.000 Then we move to the.

01:03:25.000 Do they read the full thing in class?

01:03:27.000 That's crazy.

01:03:28.000 It's pretty dense reading.

01:03:29.000 They do.

01:03:30.000 They do it.

01:03:30.000 And then lawmakers push to ban 1619 from schools.

01:03:33.000 So it's there.

01:03:34.000 It is.

01:03:34.000 And so let me tell you why people like myself are pushing for the bans of the 1619 project.

01:03:40.000 Is that, first of all, it's just not true.

01:03:42.000 It is not even charitably, in the most charitable reading, to use a word that you used, even remotely fair to the ethos or the founding of the country.

01:03:52.000 It doesn't go to original source documents.

01:03:54.000 It doesn't go to quotations.

01:03:57.000 And it meanders through generalizations and very heavy emphasis on emotion.

01:04:01.000 Can I ask something, though?

01:04:02.000 Sure, go ahead.

01:04:03.000 Is this not being presented as an alternate perspective as opposed to replacing the entirety of our curriculum?

01:04:10.000 No, it is.

01:04:10.000 And this is an important thing, which is what is education, right?

01:04:13.000 So is education where we're supposed to, for third, fourth, and fifth, and sixth graders open up every single bad idea that's ever been discovered and have kids choose?

01:04:21.000 Or are we trying to lead them towards something?

01:04:24.000 Lead them towards having better developed character, lead them towards trying to find objective truth.

01:04:28.000 Moral.

01:04:29.000 We want to make them moral.

01:04:30.000 I agree.

01:04:31.000 And so the question is: what is good?

01:04:32.000 What is evil?

01:04:33.000 Well, we don't know a line is crooked unless we have a straight line to compare it to.

01:04:36.000 Well, you know what I think on this, don't you?

01:04:38.000 I actually don't.

01:04:40.000 The narrative we've told about the founding of this country has for a long time been deeply whitewashed.

01:04:45.000 We talk about the founding fathers like they're heroes, and there is heroism in their lives, no denying that.

01:04:51.000 And we often gloss over many of the horrors of this country.

01:04:54.000 There are things that we've done, for example, that we would use as an incentive to forever despise other countries that nobody's even taught about.

01:05:03.000 Like one I read recently, for example, was that we did mass chemical bathings, and I believe it was sterilizations of Hispanic people at the beginning of the 20th century moving up past the southern border because there were like these militias forming in towns near the border and they just did it because they had the de facto support of the local government as a way of discouraging their movement up.

01:05:24.000 Now, the numbers involved in that are significant and I feel like, well, that's maybe not great for fourth graders, there could be more work done to talk about the faults with this country in addition to eulogizing its own.

01:05:37.000 The question is, what's the goal, though, right?

01:05:40.000 Is the goal to try to have young people graduate by the time of high school to be skeptical, apprehensive, and not very proud of the country, or eventually tell a true and patriotic story where you have people graduating that are thankful and have gratitude?

01:05:54.000 That's the purpose of education when it comes to gratitude is not the purpose of education.

01:05:58.000 Well, I think gratitude's a moral necessity.

01:06:01.000 No, you should be grateful for the people in your life, but I will never be grateful to the state.

01:06:05.000 I'm not that much of a collector.

01:06:06.000 Well, not a state.

01:06:07.000 Are you not thankful that you live in America?

01:06:09.000 I'm thankful of the things that make my life easier.

01:06:12.000 I was born white to well-off parents, and today I enjoy many of the benefits of having really responsible and attending.

01:06:19.000 Are you thankful you have constitutional rights that are protected by government given to you by God?

01:06:22.000 But do you know how those constitutional rights came about? 0.98

01:06:25.000 They were fought for by whiny bitches like me who were never satisfied with what they were already. 1.00

01:06:29.000 They were granted by God, protected in the constitution by whiny, same as the 14th and 15th Amendments, everything that's come since. 0.98

01:06:37.000 We fought for them, and it is discontentedness.

01:06:39.000 Are you thankful for people?

01:06:41.000 I'm thankful for their efforts.

01:06:42.000 As am I for their efforts.

01:06:43.000 There's some gratitude.

01:06:44.000 I'm grateful to them.

01:06:44.000 Sure.

01:06:45.000 But patriotism, I'm grateful to what people in America do.

01:06:50.000 But America is a concept.

01:06:51.000 It's been used to do a lot of good.

01:06:53.000 It's a home.

01:06:54.000 Well, a home can be a, I mean, in the broadest sense.

01:06:57.000 But I know what my home is.

01:06:58.000 I know where my family lives, and I'm loyal to them.

01:07:01.000 When it comes to this country, though, this is a political and economic block, and I have only one concern, and it's that the people in this country live the best lives possible.

01:07:09.000 Also outside the country, but I live here.

01:07:12.000 This is my backyard.

01:07:14.000 And when I want people graduating from high school, I don't want them to feel this sense of contentedness.

01:07:20.000 Contentedness is the death of activism for all that's good.

01:07:24.000 And activists have always been...

01:07:25.000 You're an activist in your own way, as am I, have always been the forerunners for good.

01:07:30.000 They've done a lot of damage, too.

01:07:31.000 Sure, they have.

01:07:32.000 But we make the world move.

01:07:34.000 And I want to get people, I want to get kids interested in the flaws in this country because that teaches them to grow up and care about them so hard they fix them.

01:07:43.000 This is a great piece of disagreement.

01:07:45.000 We have clarity, not agreement, which is obviously what we want, where I think that we should try to be developing and graduating kids with strong character that want to appreciate and protect a country and to try to be active against forces that wish to deconstruct it.

01:08:01.000 Your goal, and that's we're just not going to persuade each other, is that you want to try to graduate activists that know the flaws and are willing to mobilize to try to fix them or to undo whatever system might be effectuating.

01:08:14.000 As long as it's responsible and effective, yeah.

01:08:14.000 Is that fair?

01:08:16.000 There are ways to do progressive.

01:08:18.000 Of course, I'm a progressive, so I'll say it's good by default, but there are ways to do it poorly.

01:08:21.000 I disagree with people on the left constantly, either over issues of actual concept or issues of optics or issues of engagement.

01:08:29.000 I always find something to disagree with people on.

01:08:31.000 It's very fun living.

01:08:33.000 But with all that being said, I have to wonder, is it not the prerogative, and I'm not assigning this to you, of tyrants to make sure that the children who graduate from their schools find no fault in the nations they're taught to love?

01:08:49.000 See, I never said no fault, but you could be thankful for something and you can have a holistic view of something, understand that there were stumbles and there were missteps while also being pretty freaking proud of that something.

01:09:01.000 How exceptional this project is.

01:09:03.000 What if there are current problems today, you know?

01:09:06.000 We should talk about those.

01:09:06.000 Like we already talked about fatherlessness, government overreach.

01:09:09.000 Tim, you want to interject?

01:09:10.000 Oh, no, I think it's interesting to me.

01:09:14.000 You're from the suburbs of Chicago.

01:09:15.000 You grew up in Beverly Hills.

01:09:18.000 Somebody commented, I think it was on Twitter, they said that when they went to school, they weren't taught about Black Wall Street or the Tulsa bombings and things like that.

01:09:26.000 And that's proof or that shows that our schools are not teaching.

01:09:29.000 And I was like, I was taught all those things in Chicago.

01:09:32.000 We were taught about the Trail of Tears.

01:09:33.000 We were taught about westward expansion.

01:09:35.000 We were taught about the violation of treaties.

01:09:38.000 I was taught a lot as well.

01:09:39.000 Yeah, we were taught a lot about that.

01:09:40.000 When we learn history, what we're really learning is a story.

01:09:44.000 I think it's called historiography.

01:09:45.000 Obviously, when we're just looking at the facts of history, I mean, what is it?

01:09:48.000 Data and sheets, you know, wrote transcriptions of things people have said.

01:09:52.000 You teach the story.

01:09:52.000 Nobody teaches that.

01:09:54.000 And the story we've told for a long time has bowled over a lot of problems I think we should work to fix.

01:09:58.000 Do we want people to be thankful?

01:10:00.000 Sure.

01:10:01.000 I don't want to stop.

01:10:01.000 So we agree on that.

01:10:02.000 I don't want to stop teaching kids that there are undeniable things they should be happy for.

01:10:08.000 For example, every day that I worked before I was a YouTuber, you know, I thanked union activists back during the turn of the 20th century who gave us the five-day work week, the 40-hour work week, who ensured that we had proper standards for lunch breaks and what have you in this.

01:10:25.000 And they fought and they were whiny.

01:10:26.000 And I'm sure a lot of them had really bad ideas besides the worker activism.

01:10:31.000 But we all benefited from that.

01:10:33.000 Do you ever think that as an activist, as a progressive, a libertarian socialist, is there ever a point where the activism actually does much more harm than good and the preservation of what already exists actually should be desirable?

01:10:48.000 I would say that's the case with black separatists. 0.99

01:10:51.000 There are some people in this country, not all of them are black, of course, but who believe that the racial problems between white and black Americans are irreparable and that the best solution would be for black Americans to leave or at the very least to form separate enclaves within the system.

01:11:03.000 And that's nothing new.

01:11:05.000 I don't think that's true.

01:11:05.000 No, no, it's very old.

01:11:07.000 I don't think that's what Charlie asked.

01:11:09.000 He asked you if they're...

01:11:10.000 Do you want to reframe that?

01:11:11.000 Oh, sorry if I misunderstood.

01:11:12.000 Well, you were in the general area, but I guess the question is a heavy emphasis on activism for activism's sakes, mobilizing for grievances.

01:11:21.000 What if actually what we have as a constitutional order is actually pretty awesome?

01:11:27.000 Let me ask.

01:11:28.000 Do you think there are things worth that systems in place in the United States that are worth defending?

01:11:34.000 That's a better way to word it.

01:11:35.000 Yes.

01:11:36.000 Do you believe that there are systems in place in the United States that we should defend and preserve?

01:11:40.000 Yeah, for sure.

01:11:41.000 I mean, there are ideas.

01:11:43.000 For example, the concept of democracy, the concept of fair representation, the idea that anybody could have a chance if they make it here.

01:11:50.000 These are ideas that I think are almost sacrosanct.

01:11:53.000 I mean, I think they're almost existentially worthwhile.

01:11:57.000 Now, to what extent did this country live up to those promises?

01:11:59.000 In some ways, it does so better than most other countries, sometimes any other country.

01:12:03.000 In other ways, it could do better.

01:12:04.000 Income mobility here, which is the measure for how effectively this country manages its meritocratic systems, you know, is higher in some European countries than it is here.

01:12:14.000 The idea remains valuable to me, but I can't help but think maybe we could make it better.

01:12:18.000 If making it better entails some highly destructive process that involves tearing down everything we've ever known and such, then I mean, eventually you have to do a risk-reward benefit, right?

01:12:27.000 So what I'm trying to caution you about is that the people pushing CRT or wokeism, they don't have the same sort of nuance that you do.

01:12:36.000 These are revolutionaries that want to tear down the system.

01:12:39.000 But I am as well.

01:12:40.000 I just think that everything has its time.

01:12:42.000 You just had kind of a little bit more of a moderated answer.

01:12:45.000 But how often do actual critical race theorists come on like all of the talk show circuits that end up I mean, we've had some, I mean, Joy Reid advocated for it, but the actual scholars.

01:12:56.000 They're running Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman.

01:12:58.000 They're running the United States military.

01:13:00.000 They're running the wit. 0.73

01:13:02.000 They're assigning these ideas again.

01:13:04.000 Wokeism.

01:13:04.000 Let's use that.

01:13:05.000 No, with Robin D'Angelo and the federal fragility.

01:13:10.000 Right, right, right.

01:13:11.000 I'm not a big fan of her largely because I think her language incites a lot of negative discourse.

01:13:16.000 I think that it's bad for publication, maybe good in an academic.

01:13:19.000 It's not good to teach generals that.

01:13:21.000 For some random people at like a business?

01:13:23.000 No, the big generals in the military.

01:13:23.000 Absolutely not.

01:13:25.000 Oh, yeah, sure, no.

01:13:26.000 Because that's what's happening.

01:13:27.000 Well, the big problem that I have, but keep in mind, that's not wokeists running these things.

01:13:31.000 What happens is this.

01:13:32.000 And put pretty simply, the majority of Americans broadly are progressive on these issues, support BLM, all these sort of broad cultural markers.

01:13:42.000 So corporations and other large entities think we need to avoid a cancellation.

01:13:47.000 We need to appeal to the business interests of this country.

01:13:49.000 We need to do something to ingratiate ourselves to the majority opinion.

01:13:53.000 So oftentimes, and they've done this for decades, by the way, is they find some consultants, they pay them $300,000 to come on over there.

01:14:04.000 And Robin DiAngelo's job, first and foremost, is to convince everyone who hires her that she was worth that money.

01:14:09.000 So is she going to come over there and write like a PowerPoint like, don't be racist, like, come on, you know, be cool?

01:14:15.000 No, she has to go all out. 0.79

01:14:17.000 And what you get are these cringy, like the Coca-Cola PowerPoint, where you get, look, some of the things there are defensible.

01:14:23.000 Does systemic racism exist?

01:14:25.000 Should we be aware of the concept of like implicit bias?

01:14:25.000 Sure.

01:14:29.000 That's just normal human things, I think.

01:14:29.000 Yeah, fine.

01:14:32.000 But some of the language in there really made it seem like she wanted white people to feel a little bit bad.

01:14:38.000 And I don't want white people to feel bad.

01:14:40.000 I don't want anyone to feel guilty over who they are.

01:14:42.000 What percentage of this country do you think supports Black Lives Matter?

01:14:45.000 Well, I know that at its peak after George Floyd's murder, it was something like 71%.

01:14:50.000 I think since then it's trended downwards.

01:14:52.000 Is it gone below 50?

01:14:54.000 Yes.

01:14:55.000 And well, it depends on where you go.

01:14:57.000 I use Civics.

01:14:58.000 They have 237,458 responses from April 1st, 2018 to August 2nd, 2021.

01:15:04.000 I think they do a pretty good job, but there's always, I know, a challenge with polls and whether they, you know, their system.

01:15:09.000 The peak support was 53% after the death of George Floyd, and opposition actually declined fairly steadily.

01:15:16.000 There was no major spike in opposition.

01:15:18.000 There was a major spike in support after the death of George Floyd.

01:15:21.000 However, there was a rapid escalation of opposition.

01:15:25.000 According to Civics, current support for Black Lives Matter is 45% and opposition is 42%.

01:15:30.000 Those numbers are really different from us.

01:15:31.000 I might have looked at Pew Research.

01:15:32.000 I couldn't tell about the methodology, which is more valid.

01:15:34.000 Well, and it's actually, yeah, CRT, the filler word, is very unpopular.

01:15:40.000 So I would look at it differently.

01:15:41.000 I think these corporations have been infiltrated by highly motivated activists, which you've said the education system, the goal should be to create activists that have really bad ideas.

01:15:52.000 And I think they're putting America on a trajectory that I think you are even concerned about.

01:15:57.000 Because you said that there are some sacrosanct ideas, right?

01:16:01.000 The sacrosanct ideas are general, fair representation.

01:16:04.000 Wokeism does not believe in that.

01:16:06.000 Well, no, that's not true.

01:16:07.000 I would say, I mean, I don't know what you mean by wokeism, but I think that there are plenty of progress.

01:16:10.000 And I find it, which is that kind of idea of judging people based on skin color, discrimination.

01:16:16.000 I would say that what I've advocated for represents the super majority of progressive opinions.

01:16:21.000 And what we're largely seeing is a couple of really bad examples being brought to the limelight because they're most objectionable.

01:16:27.000 To be fair, though, I mean, you might have these very, very well-thought-out views of things.

01:16:27.000 Sure.

01:16:33.000 You could say, oh, that's indefensible.

01:16:34.000 Of course, I don't want to be unreasonable.

01:16:36.000 But when you get Mark Milley coming out and talking about white rage, I thought his speech was lovely. 0.99

01:16:41.000 It reminded me of those old Chinese philosopher generals.

01:16:45.000 But you have people quitting the military over this stuff because they feel like they're.

01:16:50.000 I've actually spoken with people who retired because they've been discriminated against on racial lines they don't like.

01:16:55.000 And one guy I met said he was planning a lifelong career in the military and immediately got out because they implemented these policies of like white racial trainings.

01:17:03.000 They were told that the symbols of America are no longer allowed to be displayed in private because they're extremely.

01:17:09.000 In the military.

01:17:09.000 In the military?

01:17:10.000 Yeah, well, I can't speak to any of that.

01:17:12.000 I haven't looked into the particulars of that.

01:17:15.000 The only thing I want to say is that it feels like with Robin DiAngelo, we've seen this pattern for decades now.

01:17:19.000 I don't think it has anything to do with infiltration.

01:17:21.000 I think it's the big ups, the CEOs, the project managers, whatever.

01:17:26.000 They know there's some broader political, social, cultural trend happening.

01:17:30.000 And they think, who's someone we could get?

01:17:32.000 And if you look up racial sensitivity training on Google or anywhere else, some names are going to pop up and we know which one comes up first. 0.68

01:17:40.000 And they just hire that person because they've got money and they need to spend it before the end of the quarter so their budget doesn't get cut.

01:17:45.000 Do you think that it should be?

01:17:49.000 How's the right way to phrase this?

01:17:50.000 If a corporation were to tell, say, white employees that they had inherent characteristics based on their race or that they should undergo some kind of course or class based on their race, should businesses be allowed to do that?

01:18:04.000 You mean legally or like morally?

01:18:06.000 Both?

01:18:08.000 I suppose legally if they want to.

01:18:10.000 I can understand people being upset over it.

01:18:12.000 I don't think there's anything wrong with racial sensitivity training and concept.

01:18:15.000 The problem is that it's almost always done by this consultant class of like upper middle class like wasps who are really, really intent on getting their own milquetoast veil of progressivism pushed down the throats of whoever they can have paid to listen to.

01:18:29.000 If it's a good course, everyone should be able to hear it.

01:18:31.000 Wouldn't that violate the Civil Rights Act, though?

01:18:34.000 It might.

01:18:34.000 I guess I would defer entirely to law.

01:18:36.000 If it turns out to be unconstitutional, then he had it.

01:18:39.000 I just want to say, though, that while we are fixating on bad behaviors here, and there's nothing wrong with that, I do maintain my insistence that I think the vast majority of progressives would agree with what I have to say.

01:18:50.000 Though, keep in mind, there are always going to be a mix of good and bad ideas with good social movements, even the Civil Rights Act or the Civil Rights Movement, which we all know and love today.

01:19:00.000 You know, can't deny it.

01:19:01.000 There were plenty of people acting there whose ideas I disagreed with.

01:19:05.000 Malcolm X, when he had his black separatist phase, though he amended that before he died, there are even ideas of Martin Luther King's that I maybe could question if I spoke with him.

01:19:13.000 He wrote a book after the Civil Rights Act: Where do we go from here?

01:19:16.000 Chaos or something?

01:19:18.000 Chaos or something good?

01:19:20.000 And he said a lot of stuff about the responsibility for white people to not make amends, but to educate themselves on the experience of black suffering so that we no longer just integrate.

01:19:32.000 We truly assimilate.

01:19:34.000 We know we're a collective bond.

01:19:36.000 There's always going to be some disagreement.

01:19:38.000 Is the movement valid?

01:19:39.000 To me, a movement which recognizes the racial discrimination, the systemic racism that exists, that there are problems we have yet to overcome.

01:19:47.000 This is a movement worth defending.

01:19:48.000 I just want to make some data points real quick, and then Charlie, you can come in.

01:19:51.000 Man.

01:19:52.000 So, first, the one thing I wanted to highlight, let me actually pull this up, is that net support, which is support versus opposition, before George Floyd died for Black Lives Matter in this country, was 16% net support.

01:20:04.000 As of today, according to the Civics, it's 3%.

01:20:07.000 That brings it all the way back to 2018, to August 16th.

01:20:11.000 Now, one of the things I think is really important to note is the severe tribalism and hyperpolarization in this country.

01:20:16.000 So, if we look at support for Black Lives Matter among Democrats, 86%.

01:20:22.000 Support or opposition for Black Lives Matter among Republicans, 86% opposition.

01:20:27.000 You take a look at independence.

01:20:27.000 Mere image.

01:20:29.000 More alike than we may think, huh?

01:20:31.000 Right, right.

01:20:32.000 You take a look at the independents, though, people who don't align.

01:20:35.000 And I would say, what is the date?

01:20:38.000 Around May 1st, there was an inversion.

01:20:40.000 And now the majority of independents oppose Black Lives Matter 44% to 39%.

01:20:45.000 That's not surprising to me, given that there's been very little in the way of optical.

01:20:50.000 I'm sorry, you haven't spoken in a while.

01:20:51.000 I apologize.

01:20:52.000 No, I'm just wanted to make those data points just to clarify something.

01:20:55.000 I wanted this to be more of a discussion than a debate, so I think it's actually really helpful.

01:20:59.000 Are you concerned when certain judges or people running for DA say that accommodations on sentencing should be made on race?

01:21:07.000 Does that bother you?

01:21:10.000 Who said that?

01:21:11.000 I've never heard that before.

01:21:12.000 Well, people in law schools have been saying it.

01:21:15.000 I mean, students have Tim Fox in Chicago has heavily implied that communities of color need to be accommodated for in sentencing.

01:21:22.000 And they've all but done this by just getting rid of the bail laws that we've seen altogether.

01:21:28.000 Well, right, decriminalizing shoplifting, all that.

01:21:30.000 Please.

01:21:30.000 Oh, I'm totally okay with that.

01:21:31.000 We lock way too many people up, just flat out.

01:21:34.000 That's not so like murder out the next day.

01:21:36.000 No, not murder.

01:21:37.000 You said shoplifting.

01:21:38.000 Well, I'm just saying, just the bail reform laws in New Mexico and California have been a disaster.

01:21:43.000 I can't see it.

01:21:44.000 Oh, sorry.

01:21:45.000 Here's actually a really great point.

01:21:47.000 It's a tough one for me.

01:21:48.000 I agree.

01:21:49.000 I think we lock way too many people up by erring the side of liberty, innocent until proven guilty.

01:21:53.000 To take a working-class individual who is accused of shoplifting before he's even been proven of guilt, lock him up for several months, he loses his job.

01:22:00.000 However, what do we see in San Francisco?

01:22:03.000 Wave of shoplifting, businesses shutting down, because when you don't stop the crime, you get, I guess, a lot of crime.

01:22:12.000 Yeah, it's a tough issue.

01:22:14.000 I wanted to let you guys think.

01:22:15.000 I think we'll totally disagree on this.

01:22:16.000 You first.

01:22:17.000 Maybe.

01:22:17.000 Well, I've read a lot on recidivism.

01:22:19.000 We have a fairly high recidivism rate in this country because, really, the thing that causes crime more than anything else, it's not actually poverty, it's income inequality.

01:22:26.000 When poor people and rich people share the same space, it leads to a lot of problems.

01:22:29.000 All poor people together in a neighborhood. 0.96

01:22:31.000 What is there to steal?

01:22:32.000 Poor people and rich people together in a neighborhood.

01:22:34.000 There you go.

01:22:35.000 You have very clean targets.

01:22:37.000 And what's more, there are other forms of criminality that only really fully express themselves in the types of neighborhoods that have a really strong mix of wealthy and poor.

01:22:46.000 I can see that because, again, from where I grew up, I lived on the border of a lot of low-income communities.

01:22:52.000 Now, Beverly Hills, safest place you could be.

01:22:54.000 3 a.m., you want to take a job, go for it.

01:22:55.000 Seriously.

01:22:56.000 Not anymore.

01:22:57.000 Oh, I haven't been there in like five years.

01:22:57.000 Maybe.

01:22:58.000 I'd be surprised, man.

01:22:59.000 I'll say this.

01:23:00.000 Good luck walking Rodeo Drive now.

01:23:02.000 Well, okay, Hurston, I don't want to walk Rodeo Drive during the daylight.

01:23:05.000 Okay.

01:23:06.000 Well, I agree.

01:23:08.000 After Garcina has had his work in LA, it's a different way.

01:23:11.000 Violent crime is down since the 90s.

01:23:13.000 We've had a bit of an upside.

01:23:14.000 It's been massive in the last year.

01:23:16.000 Well, COVID's led to a lot of really weird exogen factors.

01:23:18.000 But defunding the police.

01:23:20.000 We haven't defunded the police anywhere.

01:23:21.000 In Minneapolis.

01:23:22.000 Maybe in a couple places.

01:23:23.000 Hold on a second.

01:23:24.000 That's not true.

01:23:24.000 Minneapolis, Portland, Seattle, they've all cut police.

01:23:27.000 260 departments, I think it was reported last year, had stripped their funding from the money.

01:23:31.000 I'm sorry, when you said defund, I thought I meant like the anarchist vision of community policing.

01:23:35.000 When it comes to police funds being stripped, there is a conversation to be had about the relationship between that and crime, but the crime increase seems to be all countrywide.

01:23:43.000 So I don't know if I'd be leaning more towards that being a COVID thing and people being restless and angry and, I don't know, aggressive.

01:23:50.000 The thing that I'm trying to say, though, is when I grew up in Beverly Hills, really, really safe, free from violent crime.

01:23:55.000 I could walk half a mile, though.

01:23:57.000 And the area between rich and poor were the areas where people had barred windows every time.

01:24:02.000 So when it comes to criminality, there are things that we can address very fundamentally that will help everyone.

01:24:08.000 I'm sure there are restructures to bail laws that we could do.

01:24:11.000 I don't know the particulars.

01:24:12.000 It's not my field.

01:24:13.000 I've also read stuff in recidivism.

01:24:15.000 Apparently, murder actually has a very low default recidivist rate because usually it's done under a very specific set of heated conditions that don't actually speak to a person's character, which makes you wonder a lot about moral worth and what really drives a person to do that sort of thing.

01:24:29.000 I think it's something we should look at critically, though I don't have any really strong database arguments.

01:24:34.000 The last thing I want to say, because it's the first point that you brought up, is racial responses to the criminal justice system.

01:24:39.000 Yeah, I didn't forget.

01:24:40.000 I'm actually going to triple down on this one, okay?

01:24:42.000 Not only do I think that we should aggressively look at the ways our sentencing laws affect and discriminate between black and white people and Hispanic and Asian, I think we should do the same between men and women.

01:24:54.000 Because as much as black people are shafted by the criminal justice system, men are even more.

01:24:58.000 If you take a look at the disproportionate rates of sentencing, relative levels of implicit bias in the jury, women get off with way more than men. 0.67

01:25:05.000 Wash MRA confirmed.

01:25:07.000 Way more.

01:25:08.000 So I mean, maybe it's something we can all agree on.

01:25:11.000 We're guys, I think.

01:25:12.000 Well, so the issue, though, is that when you remove race, it's just a matter of income or wealth.

01:25:18.000 For example, if LeBron James goes in front of a jury, he's going to have the best lawyers.

01:25:22.000 And obviously that's an extreme example, right?

01:25:24.000 But O.J. Simpson had an all-star team.

01:25:26.000 And so the problem is that...

01:25:27.000 Obama.

01:25:29.000 He would also have good lawyers.

01:25:30.000 O.J. Simpson?

01:25:31.000 Oh, yeah.

01:25:32.000 He didn't have Obama's a lawyer.

01:25:34.000 Let me get a Kardashian and Dershowitz.

01:25:36.000 I would just like to interject that Obama extrajudicially assassinated people and nobody did anything about it. 0.72

01:25:43.000 Now that's black privilege. 0.95

01:25:44.000 But that's a joke. 0.98

01:25:45.000 Don't.

01:25:47.000 But I think that there's an implication in your argument that I want to challenge, which is that just because you're poor doesn't mean you commit crimes.

01:25:54.000 I think that's an insult to poor people.

01:25:56.000 And so I think that if you automatically assume that, now there are data trends to suggest that, but instead it should be the question of what are we trying to structurally do or through incentives to either punish the people that are committing crimes and lift people out of that current level.

01:25:56.000 Right.

01:26:11.000 So I think it's a good talking point, but I don't think it's totally true to say we have too many people in prison.

01:26:16.000 I think we have the wrong people in prison.

01:26:17.000 Let me tell you why.

01:26:19.000 We have more than like any other talking.

01:26:20.000 No, no, no.

01:26:20.000 Let me tell you why.

01:26:21.000 The average rapist serves four years in prison, and they're very likely to rape again.

01:26:27.000 Totally different than murder.

01:26:28.000 Look, look, if you want funding that goes to police departments to go towards actually looking at the rape kits that they take rather than 250,000 untested rape kits in the tri-state area in New York City, 250,000, right?

01:26:41.000 So our criminal justice system, you could say it had nefarious intentions.

01:26:46.000 I'll be neutral on that.

01:26:47.000 It was very heavy on drugs, obviously, in the 80s and 90s.

01:26:51.000 But generally, though, you cited the number.

01:26:54.000 You said violent crime's been down since the 90s.

01:26:56.000 Why do you think that is?

01:26:57.000 It's because we were tough on crime in the 80s and we had a massive campaign against it and we had the most peaceful decade in American history.

01:27:03.000 Well, there were a few factors.

01:27:04.000 The viability of broken windows policing has been challenged substantially, but there are admittedly some benefits.

01:27:11.000 The argument that I would make is that what you're really doing is you're forestalling the problem.

01:27:16.000 There are socioeconomic conditions that increase criminality, not because it makes people worse people, but just because oftentimes crime isn't some direct indicator of poor moral conduct.

01:27:26.000 Oftentimes it is a crime of necessity, or it is a crime born of the discontent and the apostle.

01:27:32.000 I got to challenge you on that.

01:27:33.000 What would be a crime of necessity today with the welfare state that we have?

01:27:37.000 What would possibly be a crime of necessity?

01:27:39.000 I know for, I can at least speak to personal experience that I knew some people involved in, like, like they said, they would sometimes peddle drugs, and they did it because while they may have been accounted for by the welfare state, their parents' medical bills weren't, not sufficiently, not even close.

01:27:55.000 Stuff like that.

01:27:56.000 Now, I could, now, maybe legally, if that person got arrested, the law says they have to be.

01:28:01.000 I could never morally condemn them.

01:28:02.000 They were trying to save their mom, man.

01:28:04.000 But I got to push back on that.

01:28:05.000 I mean, for sure, it's anecdotal, but it is.

01:28:07.000 So it's not like a data point.

01:28:09.000 I never understood this having grown up on the South Side.

01:28:12.000 Seeing people sell drugs is not the fastest and easiest way to make money for someone who's desperate.

01:28:16.000 I mean, no joke, people.

01:28:17.000 Possible sales?

01:28:18.000 What would you say?

01:28:19.000 I made $140 per hour playing guitar in front of a baseball field.

01:28:23.000 Now, I understand not everyone can play guitar.

01:28:25.000 Or skateboard.

01:28:26.000 Or skateboard.

01:28:27.000 I knew a guy who said he just bought t-shirts.

01:28:29.000 He went and bought bulk t-shirts.

01:28:30.000 So the people who are selling drugs, they got to buy the drugs first or they get a loan.

01:28:34.000 And you can do the same thing with socks.

01:28:35.000 And then people go on the side of the road and sell socks.

01:28:37.000 I think the choice of committing a crime was a choice.

01:28:39.000 Well, it is.

01:28:40.000 Well, hold on.

01:28:41.000 It is always a choice.

01:28:42.000 But what we're really talking about is the limits of determinism here.

01:28:44.000 How much do we choose the things we do?

01:28:46.000 You can make an argument that it's all, I mean, you're religious, of course, so you wouldn't have this argument.

01:28:50.000 I wouldn't have anything close to this argument.

01:28:51.000 Right.

01:28:51.000 From a secular perspective, you can make the argument that at the end of the day, the things we do are driven entirely by the chemical reactions in our brain.

01:28:58.000 And therefore, everything that we do from start to finish is just a combination of random molecular patterns and blah, blah.

01:29:03.000 We don't live our lives like that.

01:29:04.000 Obviously, I make a choice to get dressed every day.

01:29:06.000 We know how this works in practice.

01:29:08.000 But in practice, we are also the product of our environment.

01:29:11.000 And the fact that, for example, having a single parent while growing up is a pretty strong criminal indicator is a suggestion that, I mean, is it an indicator of a person's inherent moral worth that they were born with a single parent?

01:29:23.000 Probably not.

01:29:24.000 So that statistical difference has to be accounted for by the inevitable fact that environmental differences can lead to harsh outcomes.

01:29:32.000 The question is, though, do you then create a set of lack of enforcement to say that we're actually not going to enforce looting?

01:29:39.000 Where you had an entire article in national public radio not saying you believe this that says the case for looting, right?

01:29:45.000 San Francisco's basically employed this, $900 or less.

01:29:47.000 They're not going to prosecute you, right?

01:29:49.000 Videos of them stealing entire Walgreens, right?

01:29:52.000 Not an exaggeration.

01:29:53.000 And then you have, and just one other data point, just because of COVID, Europe's crime rates did not increase.

01:29:58.000 Ours did.

01:29:59.000 And we had a massive defund police, almost kind of we're going to be relaxed on criminality type movement.

01:30:05.000 And this is the question, right?

01:30:06.000 Which is how many excuses or accommodations are we going to give for crime?

01:30:10.000 Well, we're not.

01:30:11.000 And I'm just to finish is that my perspective, obviously, is very little to none.

01:30:16.000 Crime's a necessity.

01:30:17.000 I could think of one, maybe two examples where I would make a moral claim of a crime of necessity, and that would be a revenge crime if someone murdered your wife or your kid.

01:30:26.000 Maybe.

01:30:27.000 Necessity?

01:30:28.000 I'm not saying necessity.

01:30:29.000 I'm saying like a moral accommodation where I could say I could see where they came from, not necessity.

01:30:32.000 Let me rephrase that.

01:30:34.000 But the idea that in the welfare state that we have, with the private philanthropy kind of generosity, we have that shoplifting and arson and looting, mugging Barbara Boxer, that we should just say, you know, it's actually because the environment.

01:30:49.000 You know why you pointed at me when you said that.

01:30:51.000 No, I have never mugged Barbara Boston.

01:30:52.000 I'm saying that as an example.

01:30:54.000 Yeah, I don't mean to.

01:30:55.000 I don't know.

01:30:56.000 Was that you in San Francisco?

01:30:57.000 Where were you?

01:30:59.000 No, I've gotten stolen from in San Francisco before.

01:31:02.000 It was a very fun experience.

01:31:03.000 That was back before YouTube, too, so I couldn't afford to replace anything.

01:31:06.000 Okay, a lot to respond to here.

01:31:08.000 Emil Durkheim, cool guy, dead now, thought that crime was sociologically useful because it shows you where the antagonisms are between people's wants and the state's desires.

01:31:18.000 So crime takes place where there's an agitation between what people are being compelled to do by whatever, their own behavior, their desires, and what the state will allow you to do.

01:31:28.000 So for example, during a food shortage, you know, we can take like Ireland during the potato famine.

01:31:34.000 There were, to put it lightly, quite a few cases of theft during that time because people needed food.

01:31:40.000 They would do anything for it.

01:31:42.000 So the crime of theft in that instance becomes a sociological indicator of a social need that isn't being met.

01:31:49.000 Now, today, of course, we do have, admittedly, a fairly weak but existent welfare state.

01:31:54.000 We do have very generous trillions of dollars every year.

01:31:58.000 Yeah, multi-filled for America?

01:32:00.000 I will say you can walk $70,000 in value a year.

01:32:03.000 I want a UBI.

01:32:03.000 That's plenty.

01:32:04.000 We can go way harder.

01:32:05.000 We do have UBI.

01:32:06.000 We just implemented it with the stimulus.

01:32:07.000 No, we don't.

01:32:08.000 Wait, hold on.

01:32:09.000 The child tax credits would buy well, people got cash checks.

01:32:09.000 Yes.

01:32:12.000 We have UBI now.

01:32:13.000 Well, it's not a long-standing program.

01:32:15.000 I'll admit, temporarily.

01:32:16.000 We've tried UBI and crime went up.

01:32:17.000 Well, hold on.

01:32:18.000 Wait, wait, hold on.

01:32:19.000 I need to reject the spurious.

01:32:20.000 Send checks, people commit crimes.

01:32:22.000 Hold on, this is a spurious correlation, okay?

01:32:25.000 First of all, you will not be able to find any analysis that attributes the increase in crime to people getting their stimulus.

01:32:30.000 No, actually, I'm saying it's the opposite.

01:32:32.000 The argument you're making is that if people have a sociological need, they won't commit the crime.

01:32:37.000 So people got money and they still committed crimes.

01:32:39.000 Yeah, but it doesn't always correspond one-to-one like that.

01:32:41.000 The reason why people needed money is because they weren't getting any money from their jobs because they couldn't work their jobs.

01:32:46.000 So people were still in a worse.

01:32:47.000 Well, they also got unemployment.

01:32:48.000 Remember, very generous unemployment.

01:32:50.000 The unemployment started pretty generous.

01:32:51.000 $600 to $800, right?

01:32:53.000 I think it was a week or a month, right?

01:32:55.000 It was very currently that running programming.

01:32:57.000 And not everyone is applicable for unemployment.

01:33:00.000 There are a lot of conditions there that can make that difficult.

01:33:02.000 They didn't went down during the blockchain.

01:33:02.000 No, they were very generous.

01:33:05.000 We're being very spurious with our people.

01:33:06.000 We're very wonky.

01:33:07.000 I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

01:33:08.000 I'm just.

01:33:08.000 So I just, so, oh, God, where was I?

01:33:10.000 Something about some dead guys, how crime is helpful.

01:33:13.000 I love dead white guys.

01:33:14.000 That's my, I actually don't know if Durkheim was white.

01:33:17.000 So I'm not pro-crime, not pro-criminal here.

01:33:20.000 I'm pro-leniancy only insofar as I believe it helps to lower our recidivism.

01:33:25.000 Sometimes it finds that it does.

01:33:26.000 For example, you're in prison for 20 years.

01:33:28.000 What do you know?

01:33:29.000 You know, the inside of a jail cell.

01:33:31.000 The environment in prison is very bad at encouraging people to get their life together when they get out.

01:33:34.000 And that's why so many people get out of prison, they have six months on the street before they're back in.

01:33:39.000 Sometimes it's because they want to go back in.

01:33:41.000 Prison's all they know.

01:33:42.000 They did a movie about that.

01:33:44.000 Sorry.

01:33:45.000 Shawshank Redemption.

01:33:46.000 And it was a good movie.

01:33:47.000 It was a great movie.

01:33:48.000 Yeah, which only serves my point.

01:33:50.000 But with regards to being lax on crime or whatever, there are a couple of things I think we should all agree to.

01:33:57.000 First of all, well, maybe we wouldn't.

01:33:58.000 Drugs is bad.

01:34:00.000 We need to stop locking people up for weed, just flat out.

01:34:02.000 I think that drugs in general should be treated like a medical issue.

01:34:05.000 Portugal did that.

01:34:06.000 They decriminalized all drugs.

01:34:08.000 There's conflicting data on Portugal, but fine.

01:34:10.000 It's pretty promising.

01:34:11.000 So you take like heroin.

01:34:13.000 Nobody wants to be on heroin.

01:34:14.000 Okay.

01:34:15.000 If you're on heroin in the fleeting moments you have in between your little sessions, you know something's up.

01:34:20.000 So you treat that like a medical issue.

01:34:22.000 Say, hey, we have government offices.

01:34:23.000 You want to come by.

01:34:24.000 That helps.

01:34:25.000 Far fewer overdose deaths.

01:34:26.000 And those people, they go ahead, they become socially productive.

01:34:29.000 Bam.

01:34:30.000 They contribute to the economy.

01:34:30.000 No crime.

01:34:32.000 It just works better than locking them up.

01:34:34.000 I wanted to say something.

01:34:35.000 You mentioned with UBI, you mentioned with the unemployment, the stimulus.

01:34:38.000 First of all, we've actually had a really hard time hiring for specific work, like labor stuff, because nobody wants to work.

01:34:45.000 And no joke, like we've been having, I've been having conversations like every other day, like, can we find some people?

01:34:50.000 And it's like, we can't find anybody.

01:34:51.000 We got signs up and down all throughout the area where it's like, come in, open interviews.

01:34:56.000 So many.

01:34:57.000 We had over 800 flights canceled due to staffing shortages.

01:35:02.000 And now we're facing fuel shortages because there's a trucker shortage.

01:35:06.000 We're looking at this unemployment stimulus thing where they're doing the $300 bonus.

01:35:11.000 Now they're doing the child tax credit, which won't be for everybody.

01:35:13.000 And we're seeing a correlation with massive job openings and people not taking these jobs.

01:35:19.000 I think it's phenomenal.

01:35:20.000 Finally, the bargaining power is in the hands of the workers more so.

01:35:24.000 But it's broken.

01:35:26.000 Like the flights are shutting down.

01:35:28.000 Nobody wants the jobs, even when they do increase the salary.

01:35:30.000 So it's true.

01:35:31.000 The flights are an issue.

01:35:32.000 But here's what they don't tell you in the news briefs.

01:35:35.000 So stock buybacks, something that many companies now do because of their decriminalization, the airline companies have spent an anomalous amount of their profits each year on stock buybacks to enrich their CEOs and shareholders rather than on hiring more pilots.

01:35:52.000 It seems the issue here is this is a simple supply-demand issue.

01:35:56.000 People need to raise their wages.

01:35:58.000 You see these news stories from time to time where it's like, I raised my wage to 15 an hour and people showed up.

01:36:03.000 And it's like, yeah, that is how economics works.

01:36:06.000 We had John Schneider, Papa John, on the show, and he told us a story about a pizzeria where they were paying 35 bucks an hour to some of their pizza cooks, bakers, because that was a line.

01:36:16.000 He kept trying to find people.

01:36:17.000 He kept raising wages.

01:36:17.000 Nobody would do it.

01:36:18.000 Finally, he settled on $35 an hour.

01:36:20.000 That means pizzas are going to basically more than double because the wage they were paying before was like $15 and now they're over double what they were paying in labor.

01:36:27.000 Their labor costs go up.

01:36:28.000 They have no choice but to charge substantially more for pizza.

01:36:30.000 In the short term, within a month or so, that might have an impact on those pizza makers.

01:36:36.000 But the ripple effect is going to slam into everybody.

01:36:39.000 All of a sudden, the contractor can't afford to feed, take his family out for dinner.

01:36:42.000 He can't afford to buy the food he wants because the base level costs are going to start going up.

01:36:46.000 Then the landlords aren't going to be able to hire the maintenance crews to fix the buildings.

01:36:50.000 The landlords are on fixed pricing, which they can't change, which then results in a brick wall, a collapse.

01:36:56.000 I just want to say what we're having right now is an unprecedented economic shock.

01:37:00.000 For a year, nobody worked, or very few people worked.

01:37:03.000 And people got used to staying at home.

01:37:05.000 And as the government should, it should have done more, but as the government should, it took care of them a little bit.

01:37:10.000 You know, we have to ride this out.

01:37:11.000 What are government funds for but riding us out through common crises?

01:37:15.000 Better this than war. 0.96

01:37:17.000 And now people are returning to work and they're realizing work sucks. 0.98

01:37:22.000 Work sucks everywhere. 0.96

01:37:24.000 But in this country, compared to maybe some of our equally developed contemporaries, work really sucks. 0.97

01:37:29.000 The work culture, our rate of overproductivity, Americans more than any other developed country, by the way, we push our workers hard.

01:37:36.000 And you have favorable employment numbers, but you don't have favorable underemployment numbers.

01:37:41.000 There are a lot of people who have jobs, but they have like two to three part-time jobs.

01:37:46.000 They don't get their schedule for the next month until like two weeks before the end of the current one.

01:37:50.000 They're constantly worrying about whether or not they're going to make their shifts line up to get enough hours to get the money they need to pay down their student debt along with their rent and everything. 0.95

01:37:58.000 It sucks. 0.96

01:37:59.000 And it's untenable. 0.99

01:38:00.000 And we are in an era of unprecedented record profits for CEOs.

01:38:04.000 So yes, I think the solution to this, and it'll be a rough one, that's for sure, is we should normalize higher wages.

01:38:10.000 Maybe the solution to $15 an hour was never a federal mandate.

01:38:14.000 Maybe it was the inevitable economic necessity of incentivizing workers.

01:38:18.000 Hard to disagree with a lot of that.

01:38:20.000 I will say that the lockdowns were way too harsh and intense.

01:38:23.000 I will say there is a Fifth Amendment argument to be made, though, that if the government forces you to not work, then you should be able to get something in return.

01:38:30.000 The government cannot take something from you constitutionally and not pay you for it.

01:38:34.000 That's the eminent domain argument, right?

01:38:36.000 Which was one of the best arguments for the stimulus package.

01:38:39.000 I just think the lockdowns were far too severe and far too intense and really infringed on people's liberties and abilities to be able to take risks.

01:38:47.000 I want to go a different direction.

01:38:48.000 I just want to ask you a question.

01:38:49.000 It's just more kind of about human nature.

01:38:51.000 Do you think human beings are naturally good or naturally bad?

01:38:55.000 As human nature.

01:38:57.000 Tabula Rossa.

01:38:58.000 I really think we are what we mean.

01:38:59.000 Blank slate.

01:39:00.000 Maybe, I mean, maybe there's some inclination.

01:39:02.000 We're hardwired to be social.

01:39:04.000 I know that.

01:39:05.000 We're also, at least to some extent, hardwired to be self-serving.

01:39:08.000 The best society merges those two.

01:39:11.000 The best interest for you is the best interest for everyone.

01:39:14.000 The social contract from now until Locke's, Rousseau's, or Hobbes, which social contract?

01:39:22.000 I guess I would just say the ubiquitous philosophical term more so than any other person.

01:39:27.000 Well, because they all wrote on those terms, right?

01:39:29.000 And they totally disagree.

01:39:31.000 They all thought different things of humans.

01:39:32.000 They all thought Hobbes was at a very dark view.

01:39:35.000 Rousseau, very positive.

01:39:36.000 Locke was more neutral.

01:39:38.000 Socialists.

01:39:39.000 Socialists tend to think that human beings are fundamentally positive, but I reject that.

01:39:43.000 That's why I'm curious because you see way too cynical for that.

01:39:45.000 Well, the implicit suggestion to that to me is that socialists think their system would only work if everyone was nice.

01:39:50.000 And I don't believe that. 0.97

01:39:51.000 I think that the best economic systems will work when everyone is an absolute POS, just a dirty, horrible human being.

01:39:58.000 And very Hobbes incentivized them.

01:40:00.000 Well, but it should.

01:40:01.000 Maybe humans are amazing, but the best system should survive human grade.

01:40:06.000 I want to ask you a very simple and general question.

01:40:08.000 Uh-oh.

01:40:08.000 Those are the worst ones to answer.

01:40:10.000 Do you think some people are better than other people?

01:40:13.000 Can I add a bit of nuance to that answer?

01:40:16.000 Answer however you want.

01:40:17.000 I think that some people have been developed to be more moral and of better character.

01:40:21.000 Oh, no.

01:40:22.000 Okay.

01:40:23.000 I didn't mean moral.

01:40:24.000 Just better, like they're taller.

01:40:27.000 That's it.

01:40:27.000 Oh.

01:40:29.000 But I think your interpretation of the question is part of the answer.

01:40:32.000 By any metric, there will always be people who are better than others, always perhaps by some combination of environment and genetics.

01:40:39.000 I just hope that we can all ride along beside each other.

01:40:42.000 I agree.

01:40:43.000 I think, you know, I mentioned this before the show.

01:40:45.000 If you were to ask anybody on the left or the right, you know, what did you want?

01:40:48.000 It'd be like for everyone to prosper, for people to be successful, to pull people out of poverty, things like that.

01:40:54.000 I guess the issue is disagree on how we get there.

01:40:57.000 Well, I think we want, I'm not sure if we want the same thing.

01:41:01.000 I want more preservation and conservation of what we already have.

01:41:04.000 Do you want socialism?

01:41:05.000 Absolutely not.

01:41:05.000 Oh, no.

01:41:06.000 Slight ideologicalism.

01:41:08.000 But put on, come on.

01:41:08.000 I mean, but we don't need to play the word games.

01:41:10.000 Go ahead.

01:41:11.000 Why do you want to preserve?

01:41:12.000 Well, I think that we have something beautiful, unique, and exceptional.

01:41:15.000 And I take the more Hobbesian view of human nature, which is we're brutish and nasty and awful and cruel.

01:41:21.000 And the fact we've been able to build something decent and civil is pretty remarkable.

01:41:25.000 Are you saying that we have a good system?

01:41:28.000 A great system.

01:41:29.000 And people thrive from the system?

01:41:32.000 I think people flourish and thrive.

01:41:34.000 I think that a rights-based system is naturally the best way to govern.

01:41:37.000 Do you want people to be stripped of their rights, imprisoned, brutalized, impoverished?

01:41:41.000 Of course not.

01:41:42.000 No.

01:41:43.000 I mean, the sacrificing of rights is something that usually has to be earned negatively, like murdering somebody.

01:41:48.000 This is what I mean, because I think I can ask you the same question.

01:41:51.000 Do you want people to be brutalized, impoverished, imprisoned?

01:41:54.000 Of course not.

01:41:55.000 Taking their rights away.

01:41:56.000 But I would never want to grow complacent.

01:41:58.000 You're both familiar with the Marxian theory of dialectic materialism.

01:42:01.000 You mean Hegel's theory.

01:42:03.000 No, he had the dialectic, and we built on it, you know?

01:42:08.000 I'd love to get into it.

01:42:10.000 I really want to get into the Marx thing because I'm super fascinated by it.

01:42:12.000 No, I just want to say, you know, the theory, I mean, put simply, I guess, is that human society, the human project, it evolves as a product of antagonism, grinding antagonism between people in a Marxian view of different.

01:42:24.000 It's very Hegelian, yeah.

01:42:26.000 Well, yeah, no, I mean, he was a student of Hegel.

01:42:27.000 I know.

01:42:28.000 He was part of this.

01:42:28.000 He was the young Hegelian.

01:42:29.000 Won the argument.

01:42:30.000 No, I'm not.

01:42:31.000 I'm just saying, like, he would get mad at you if you said he was Hegelian influence, but I don't think I would.

01:42:31.000 Well, you're not.

01:42:36.000 Hegel was a smart guy.

01:42:37.000 I just can't read his work because.

01:42:38.000 The phenomenology of spirit is impossible to read.

01:42:40.000 Thank you.

01:42:41.000 All right.

01:42:41.000 I was worried you're going to make fun of me.

01:42:43.000 I just want to say.

01:42:43.000 No, it's really hard.

01:42:44.000 He made the very simple complex.

01:42:46.000 Yeah.

01:42:47.000 We agree on something.

01:42:48.000 I just want to say, sorry, sorry.

01:42:49.000 I just want to say the project of humans moving forward.

01:42:52.000 I think that antagonism fuels it, but in the best way.

01:42:54.000 Not antagonism like war, but antagonism in the sense that we look at our ideas, our values, and we challenge them.

01:43:00.000 So I just want to say something we disagree on.

01:43:02.000 I don't think humanity is a project.

01:43:05.000 Do you think we're headed towards something better than what we have today?

01:43:08.000 Probably not.

01:43:10.000 I think that we're actually engaging in the second law of thermodynamics currently that we're untangling.

01:43:15.000 We're going to chaos, not order.

01:43:17.000 See, this to me, this is the thing, and I'm not trying to patronize.

01:43:21.000 Conservatives have been shown to be more fearful on average.

01:43:23.000 And I think if they thought that way, it would be very warranted.

01:43:26.000 But some fears are legitimate.

01:43:28.000 Winston Churchill's fears about the evil Germans were legitimate. 1.00

01:43:28.000 Certainly. 1.00

01:43:32.000 No, fear is not always illegitimate.

01:43:32.000 No, no, no.

01:43:32.000 I'm not.

01:43:34.000 And there are elements of this.

01:43:36.000 I think, though, that if society is to collapse, it would probably be from climate change more so than like the oh, come on.

01:43:41.000 You don't believe that.

01:43:42.000 No, for sure.

01:43:44.000 We'll see it, assuming COVID doesn't get you.

01:43:46.000 We'll live to see some pretty severe.

01:43:48.000 We see it right now.

01:43:49.000 You know, my problem is I see all the news, I see all the arguments about climate change, and I'm like, I understand them.

01:43:55.000 And then you get Obama buying beachfront property.

01:43:57.000 You get the celebrities flying airplanes.

01:43:59.000 And I'm like, how am I supposed to trust any of these people?

01:44:01.000 Got to get Bernie.

01:44:02.000 Guy rode the train to work.

01:44:04.000 He didn't have to do that.

01:44:05.000 Bernie's the man.

01:44:06.000 True revolutionary.

01:44:07.000 So just to finish the point, I'm sorry, because I kept getting sidetracked.

01:44:10.000 The idea of the human project is super interesting to me because that's a collision point we're going to have.

01:44:14.000 Yeah, well, I'd like to think, I mean, people have always said this is the best it gets.

01:44:19.000 You know, the Postmaster General back in, was it the Postmaster General?

01:44:21.000 Was it the Patent Office?

01:44:22.000 The Patent Office 1900, all the patents have been made.

01:44:24.000 Yeah, yeah.

01:44:25.000 And I'm not saying it's the best.

01:44:26.000 It's been, I'm not saying improvement is not possible.

01:44:28.000 Maybe we can make little improvements.

01:44:30.000 But when I try to put myself in the shoes of men past, you know, I don't know, somebody in feudal China.

01:44:35.000 And to them, what I live in today would have been incomprehensible to them in every imaginable sense, every conceivable way.

01:44:42.000 But their arguments for the permanence of society then would have been better than mine today because they would have lived in a stable, feudal society for millennia.

01:44:53.000 And today, I now am here using technology that would have been alien to humans 20 years ago.

01:44:59.000 I think about like the Culture Revolution, the Cultural Revolution.

01:45:04.000 I think about the revolution in Russia.

01:45:06.000 And you mentioned the conservatives tend to be more fearful.

01:45:08.000 And I think there's history that shows us things can go bad.

01:45:12.000 You can have something that's good, not great, could probably be better, and then end up with an unchecked movement that results in millions dead.

01:45:21.000 20 to 40 million, I think, in the Cultural Revolution.

01:45:21.000 For sure.

01:45:23.000 We had Lily Tong Williams on the other night, and she's telling us these stories are scary.

01:45:26.000 Always hindsight, right?

01:45:27.000 Because people thought this about every major event in social progress in America's history as well.

01:45:32.000 The breakup, the Confederacy, the Civil War, the fight to abolish slavery, sure.

01:45:36.000 You know, suffrage for women, yes. 0.98

01:45:37.000 The Civil Rights Act, yes, gay marriage, yes.

01:45:40.000 Every time we make a step forward, I don't, you're probably anti-gay marriage, right?

01:45:44.000 Because I'm pro-traditional marriage.

01:45:46.000 Okay, sure, right.

01:45:47.000 Anti-gay marriage.

01:45:48.000 Pro-tradition.

01:45:49.000 Yeah.

01:45:49.000 Gotcha.

01:45:51.000 One man, one woman.

01:45:52.000 Every time we take a step forward, well, we agreed in the three-parent household before.

01:45:56.000 I disagreed on polyamory, actually.

01:45:58.000 50% more efficient than the previous method.

01:46:00.000 And that's not actually a study.

01:46:02.000 And 10 times more chaotic.

01:46:04.000 Are you actually citing anything?

01:46:04.000 Way more perverse.

01:46:06.000 I'm not actually citing anything.

01:46:07.000 It's possibly not a linear growth pattern with parents in the house.

01:46:10.000 It's actually exponential.

01:46:12.000 It just goes up forever.

01:46:14.000 Robert Einstein had 12 parents.

01:46:16.000 By the time you hit 12 parents, should the children just a god, by the way?

01:46:19.000 Yeah, it's like a warp step.

01:46:21.000 It's very ubermensch, but continue.

01:46:21.000 Very hard.

01:46:23.000 Yeah.

01:46:23.000 Sorry.

01:46:24.000 It always feels like everyone argues like this is the best it gets and any future steps would be treacherous.

01:46:30.000 But then we always make that next step.

01:46:32.000 I don't know if America is going to be around forever.

01:46:34.000 We're a young country and countries far older than ours have fallen in the lifetime of America.

01:46:39.000 So I can't look at what we have today or the people that I live with or the values that I believe in and assign to them a feeling of permanence.

01:46:45.000 But I can say this.

01:46:46.000 I fear stagnation.

01:46:48.000 And every country that has ever set itself upon stagnation has always died.

01:46:53.000 Every time.

01:46:54.000 Every country always seeks to better itself.

01:46:56.000 And maybe that road to betterment leads to ruin, but the path of stagnation is always ruinous.

01:47:02.000 I agree.

01:47:02.000 Our culture has stagnated severely.

01:47:04.000 One thing I always bring up is like Christmas music written in the 50s.

01:47:07.000 We still play it nonstop over and over again.

01:47:09.000 Movies have become repetitive, redundant, reboots. 0.95

01:47:13.000 It's evolved from where we had these interesting pieces of art to just regurgitated crap over and over again.

01:47:18.000 Can I just take some exception with your argument?

01:47:20.000 First of all, there is this kind of revisionist belief that somehow conservatives in the traditional sense were against some of those social movements, which is just not true.

01:47:28.000 Now, I'm not saying you'd be a Confederate, and I'm not even getting to the party switching thing, but there is a direct lineage between hyper-focusing on racial politics in the 1860s and the 1920s and some of the people on the American left that are just completely obsessed with American, you know, racial politics.

01:47:44.000 It's equality versus hierarchy, right?

01:47:46.000 But what do you mean by that?

01:47:47.000 Well, back then, the slave owners wouldn't have been like, I'm really obsessed with race or equality.

01:47:53.000 Now, I mean, obsession with race can be pernicious in many ways, but I think there's a pretty big difference between being obsessed with the idea of racial equality and being obsessed with.

01:48:01.000 I think it's equally as pernicious, just they don't have the power to implement it.

01:48:04.000 But we kind of already did that.

01:48:06.000 Do you think I'd do that?

01:48:07.000 You?

01:48:07.000 No, I don't think you would.

01:48:09.000 I mean, I don't know you well enough.

01:48:10.000 You seem rather decent.

01:48:11.000 I try my best, but I wouldn't give power to Nicole Hannah Jones.

01:48:15.000 I don't know who that is.

01:48:16.000 She founded the 1619 Project.

01:48:18.000 Oh, I just read the thing.

01:48:20.000 I don't know.

01:48:21.000 We have a constitution to prevent us against people like that.

01:48:23.000 What I'm saying, though, is that, for example, I'm not against social change.

01:48:27.000 I mean, I'd love to abolish abortion, for example.

01:48:29.000 I'd love to put fathers back in the home.

01:48:31.000 So conservatives are not necessarily always saying, no, we don't want to improve.

01:48:31.000 No doubt.

01:48:35.000 We want to stagnate.

01:48:36.000 We want the correct form of social change.

01:48:38.000 So let me ask this then.

01:48:39.000 Let's get to the core of it then.

01:48:41.000 What values are you looking to maximize?

01:48:43.000 Not just a great question.

01:48:44.000 Not just like morality, because that could mean the same thing or different things to anyone.

01:48:48.000 But if you were to look at a society and were asked to assess its worth, what metrics would you look towards?

01:48:54.000 It's ability to defend those that can't defend themselves.

01:48:57.000 Charity, generosity, integrity, faith to your creator, the ability to pass down good and moral values to the next generation, one that believes in work, and one that believes in the cause of the nation above the self.

01:48:57.000 Okay.

01:49:11.000 I've got an idea.

01:49:11.000 All right.

01:49:12.000 I think that's a fairly collectivist point, that last one, though, wouldn't it be?

01:49:15.000 Well, the nation above itself, I mean, you could call it collectivist, but I wouldn't say the state.

01:49:20.000 I'd say the idea of the nation, right?

01:49:22.000 So there's two different things, and those are conflated sometimes by libertarian socialist types, which is a walking contradiction.

01:49:28.000 I'd love to ask you about that.

01:49:29.000 But just like, it's kind of just being a Christian atheist.

01:49:29.000 Sure.

01:49:32.000 I'm trying to answer it when you're done, by the way, because I think my follow-up might touch on that.

01:49:35.000 But the state is a creation of the people.

01:49:39.000 The people are the country.

01:49:41.000 That's why our Constitution, the preamble, says we the people, not we the federal government, right?

01:49:45.000 So the people are the nation.

01:49:47.000 And so that's why I differentiate between the two.

01:49:49.000 Do you have a loyalty?

01:49:51.000 Do you have a belief that you want to create something bigger than yourselves?

01:49:55.000 I think that's a moral good.

01:49:56.000 To me, and I mean, without meaning to hyperbolize, but to me, that's always strung rather fascist.

01:50:02.000 The myth of the common man, the people, the volk, you know?

01:50:06.000 The idea that there is a state, and Germany was a state, of course, but Hitler didn't really appeal to the state.

01:50:11.000 It was the concept of the fatherland that he really hit on.

01:50:14.000 And the people were a beating heart of the fatherland.

01:50:19.000 They were an instrumental organ.

01:50:21.000 And to me, the problem with this is that when you get down to it, this thought process, this mentality, it drives men to do terrible, terrible things.

01:50:28.000 Because interpersonally, all of the chemical effects of empathy kick in.

01:50:32.000 I look at you, I see you.

01:50:34.000 But you start bringing in concepts like the nation, the fatherland, and it becomes very easy to convince people to compel themselves towards courses that they would otherwise not.

01:50:43.000 So I expected you to use a 1930s reference earlier, so congratulations.

01:50:48.000 No, I'm not calling you a fascist.

01:50:50.000 I'm only saying.

01:50:51.000 No, I know.

01:50:51.000 You did do the correct.

01:50:52.000 I didn't mean to hyperbolize.

01:50:53.000 But there's other nations today that have those values that we would never call fascists, like Japan.

01:50:58.000 Well, Japan has very strict immigration.

01:51:01.000 Well, I think Korea is actually a better example, to be honest. 0.74

01:51:03.000 I really don't like either of those countries for the reasons that I'm not.

01:51:06.000 You don't like Korea?

01:51:07.000 I think they're both deeply conservative countries.

01:51:09.000 I agree with you.

01:51:10.000 Right.

01:51:10.000 They're wonderful.

01:51:11.000 And I think they do so in part because there's a degree of anti-individualism and the subservience they all expect of the common good.

01:51:19.000 Now, it's funny.

01:51:20.000 I feel like our roles are being reversed a little bit here.

01:51:22.000 Isn't that interesting?

01:51:23.000 The common good isn't something I appeal to.

01:51:25.000 For me, the value I want to maximize.

01:51:27.000 I just appeal to the good.

01:51:28.000 The good.

01:51:29.000 Which is two different things.

01:51:29.000 Sure, the good.

01:51:31.000 Is freedom.

01:51:32.000 That's what I care about most.

01:51:33.000 And that's what libertarian socialism is about.

01:51:35.000 There are many types of freedoms, positive and negative.

01:51:38.000 If I might indulge very briefly, like, is a man thrown to a lawless desert without food, water, or clothing free?

01:51:47.000 Really asking.

01:51:48.000 So probably no.

01:51:50.000 I agree. 1.00

01:51:51.000 He's free to die. 0.98

01:51:52.000 But that's an extreme example.

01:51:53.000 That's not applicable in modern, wealthy America.

01:51:56.000 No.

01:51:56.000 Or any Western nation.

01:51:57.000 But it's a philosophical base.

01:51:58.000 It's also a Rousseauan argument.

01:52:00.000 Man's born free and he spends the rest of his life in chains.

01:52:02.000 It's just anti-commercial in nature.

01:52:04.000 Well, no, but it's a base philosophical argument because it's true, they're lawless.

01:52:08.000 There's nothing preventing him from doing anything in that environment, but he has no ability to act on the right.

01:52:14.000 But do you know what he does have?

01:52:15.000 Consciousness.

01:52:16.000 So that's a natural rights doctrine that I will defend.

01:52:16.000 Well, sure.

01:52:18.000 Well, I mean, I like consciousness too.

01:52:20.000 The only point that I'm getting at is when it comes to people's freedom and the ability for people to protect their freedom, this is what I care about.

01:52:25.000 It's what Marx cared about.

01:52:27.000 If you actually read what he wrote, and I have, I've read Das Capital, I've read The Manifesto, and guess what?

01:52:31.000 He was right about some things. 0.97

01:52:32.000 Then you know.

01:52:33.000 But not everything.

01:52:34.000 He didn't talk about equality.

01:52:36.000 He didn't write on equality.

01:52:38.000 He wrote on freedom because he believed that society was a very complex, interlocking network of systems that in some ways liberated men and in other ways enslaved them.

01:52:49.000 But do you know what he got wrong?

01:52:51.000 He got wrong that sometimes people can be free for other devices that they are not able to regulate.

01:52:56.000 They can be free not from alcoholism, drug addiction, some sort of any other sort of perverse addiction.

01:53:02.000 The idea of freedom is very libertarian.

01:53:04.000 But I agree with that, though.

01:53:05.000 No, I know you do.

01:53:06.000 The greatest society.

01:53:07.000 I say that.

01:53:07.000 Okay, go ahead.

01:53:08.000 Just the greatest society is one where a man is born and there are as few things as possible preventing him from doing whatever he wants for the rest of his life.

01:53:08.000 Oh, sorry.

01:53:18.000 I totally disagree.

01:53:20.000 So long as, of course, he doesn't deprive others of the ability to do the same.

01:53:24.000 So I think that's a miserable society.

01:53:27.000 No, no, that's not freedom.

01:53:27.000 Freedom?

01:53:29.000 That's licentiousness or degeneracy.

01:53:32.000 What is degeneracy?

01:53:32.000 That's chaos.

01:53:34.000 I like men. 0.82

01:53:35.000 How about pedophilia? 0.97

01:53:37.000 Okay.

01:53:37.000 Well, obviously.

01:53:38.000 You said whatever he wants.

01:53:39.000 Is pedophilia freedom value?

01:53:41.000 As long as they don't infringe on the rights of others, I'm sure you could believe.

01:53:44.000 I would believe that.

01:53:45.000 Well, so then so there are limits on freedom is what you're saying.

01:53:47.000 It's not this wild west campaign.

01:53:49.000 So where do you get those limits from?

01:53:50.000 Well, obviously you would probably have to have a pretty complex interlocking legal system to determine what we agree upon as like a reasonable limits we can place on people's behavior.

01:53:58.000 We have that now to an extent.

01:53:59.000 So like pedophilia, bad?

01:53:59.000 No, I know.

01:54:01.000 That would be a bad thing.

01:54:02.000 Okay, kidnapping.

01:54:03.000 That would be a bad thing.

01:54:04.000 That would be a bad thing. 1.00

01:54:04.000 Rape. 1.00

01:54:05.000 Why do you think those things are bad?

01:54:07.000 I think they're bad because you're stripping other people of the ability to do that which they will.

01:54:11.000 With all those examples, you're inflicting harm on a person.

01:54:13.000 How about dealing drugs?

01:54:14.000 I think that dealing drugs is a person's freedom, as is taking a person's freedom.

01:54:18.000 What about dealing drugs to kids?

01:54:20.000 Dealing drugs to kids.

01:54:22.000 I think I would disagree with that probably because I think there's something exceptional about addictive substances and children.

01:54:28.000 That being said, I think a lot of stuff would apply to children specifically.

01:54:31.000 Contract law.

01:54:32.000 Kids can't sign contracts.

01:54:33.000 So there's nothing wrong with that.

01:54:34.000 Do you see what I'm getting at?

01:54:35.000 Eventually, you do agree that a conservative framework is necessary.

01:54:38.000 I don't think that's a conservative framework because there are other things I care about that you would always disagree with, like collective ownership of the means of production.

01:54:44.000 Which I think private property and freedom are linked together.

01:54:44.000 Yeah, I totally disagree.

01:54:47.000 Which would give workers the most freedom possible.

01:54:49.000 We've definitely gone along because it was just been fantastic.

01:54:53.000 It feels like it's been five minutes.

01:54:54.000 Yeah, I know.

01:54:54.000 I know, right?

01:54:55.000 And Ian, you've collected a bunch of like 50.

01:54:58.000 So, so, right, right.

01:54:59.000 I'm going to use a restroom.

01:55:00.000 Is that okay?

01:55:01.000 Aria, go do it to me.

01:55:02.000 It's going to take like 100 seconds.

01:55:03.000 Yeah.

01:55:04.000 I'm kind of interested what you think about.

01:55:06.000 I think humans are inherently destructive by nature, and that if you took a human and put him in a room with a bunch of small animals and plants, over time, his hunger, purely because of hunger, ultimately, he would destroy and consume all of those animals and all of those plants.

01:55:21.000 And then if you put another human in there, one of those would eventually destroy and consume the other human.

01:55:26.000 I do think that we are maybe inherently expansionist.

01:55:31.000 I think that might be a defining trait of our species.

01:55:34.000 I mean, we conquered the world.

01:55:36.000 And God willing, we survive.

01:55:38.000 A thousand years from now, we'll conquer the stars.

01:55:41.000 And that's unique to us.

01:55:42.000 Other animals don't do that.

01:55:43.000 I don't know if that's a good thing.

01:55:45.000 Maybe everything would have been better.

01:55:46.000 They do this.

01:55:47.000 Every animal does.

01:55:49.000 The issue is.

01:55:50.000 Build spaceships?

01:55:51.000 No, no, no, no.

01:55:52.000 Expansion.

01:55:52.000 Expand.

01:55:53.000 Oh, oh, yeah, yeah.

01:55:54.000 But not build spaceships.

01:55:55.000 That'd be cool, though.

01:55:56.000 If all of us were taken off, over time, the limits of their abilities constrain them to a given area, a given population.

01:56:05.000 But we clearly haven't been kept in that way.

01:56:08.000 Intelligence has separated us from the equilibrium.

01:56:14.000 A lion chasing a gazelle.

01:56:16.000 The gazelle runs faster.

01:56:18.000 The zebras and the stripes are confusing.

01:56:18.000 The lion has to run faster.

01:56:20.000 Some get away, some don't.

01:56:21.000 There's a natural adaptation process.

01:56:23.000 We know what evolution is.

01:56:24.000 But humans, we adapt instantly.

01:56:26.000 We are like, hey, that bird's flying.

01:56:28.000 I got an arrow.

01:56:29.000 And we have, and there are, I just want to say, talking about evolution.

01:56:33.000 Oh, yeah, non-controversial topic.

01:56:34.000 No, no, no.

01:56:35.000 Well, in a non-controversial way, believe it or not, you'll have to catch the behind-the-scenes release.

01:56:39.000 I just want to say that I don't have much optimism for the human condition.

01:56:42.000 I'm not like a huge optimist about this.

01:56:44.000 We are, I think, very potentially destructive.

01:56:46.000 I just think that we also experience or we're better receptive to reward incentives than any other thing.

01:56:55.000 Ian's got a bunch of questions.

01:56:57.000 So for everybody who super chatted, we were having Ian, we mentioned in the beginning, go through and try and find really good questions.

01:57:02.000 A lot of people are saying really awesome things.

01:57:04.000 I want to read one that's not a question real quickly.

01:57:05.000 It's from Adam Schrader, who said, So far, this whole conversation reminds me of friendly bar discussions 10 years ago.

01:57:11.000 I miss that world.

01:57:12.000 Thank you, Vosh and Charlie, for being excellent.

01:57:14.000 Thank you, Tim, for steel manning.

01:57:16.000 You all have leader demeanors.

01:57:17.000 I know a lot of people disagree with each other, especially in the chat.

01:57:20.000 Not everyone gets along, but these are, I think, fantastic conversations.

01:57:24.000 Thank you, Charlie.

01:57:25.000 Ian's got some questions.

01:57:26.000 Let me bring them to you.

01:57:27.000 And then afterwards, if we still have time permitting, I would like to do the member segment and then personally be more involved than I've been for the most part.

01:57:37.000 Sorry, we've been back to arm wrestling.

01:57:40.000 There's a million things.

01:57:41.000 I'm like, you know, and I did interject.

01:57:44.000 You guys know I did.

01:57:44.000 You just told us with a right to go through all of them.

01:57:47.000 Yeah.

01:57:47.000 Thanks, Ian.

01:57:48.000 Okay.

01:57:49.000 These are some pretty good ones.

01:57:49.000 So you just said press.

01:57:51.000 Yeah.

01:57:51.000 Okay, there we go.

01:57:52.000 So Ian's polled some super chats.

01:57:54.000 M asks, please ask each guest if they agree or disagree with the statement.

01:57:58.000 Abortion breaks the non-aggression principle and why. 0.74

01:58:02.000 Obviously, yeah.

01:58:03.000 I think abortion is immoral and we should do our best to eradicate it. 0.99

01:58:08.000 I don't really believe in the NAP.

01:58:10.000 I understand people's discomfort with abortion.

01:58:12.000 I think that unfortunately it's a legal necessity as a byproduct of some very compelling personhood arguments I've heard in the past, which I would have to read up on again before reciting.

01:58:22.000 Can I ask a question?

01:58:24.000 When do you think life begins?

01:58:26.000 I don't know what life is.

01:58:28.000 So how about your life?

01:58:30.000 You have life right now.

01:58:31.000 When did your life begin?

01:58:32.000 I don't remember the first six months of my life.

01:58:34.000 I genuinely don't remember.

01:58:35.000 Looking at the development of a human life, when would you say that begins?

01:58:37.000 I know when human bodies develop.

01:58:40.000 The genuine answer that I have is that I think that it's always going to be dictate somewhat by intuition.

01:58:45.000 The intuitive answer from me is life begins at birth.

01:58:48.000 That's my intuitive.

01:58:49.000 If you asked me, like, that's what feels right, but I'm sympathetic to other perspectives.

01:58:54.000 What about when DNA is formed?

01:58:56.000 Well, that would be a conception, right?

01:58:58.000 Or at least right after.

01:59:00.000 Well, that's not obviously not the metric that I would look at.

01:59:03.000 How about heartbeat?

01:59:06.000 That's six weeks?

01:59:07.000 No.

01:59:08.000 As early as six weeks could be as early as late as six weeks, early as 25 days.

01:59:11.000 Okay, yeah.

01:59:12.000 No.

01:59:12.000 Yeah, no, these are interesting metrics.

01:59:14.000 I just, I think that my understanding of consciousness is more of an emergent property of experience, more so than it is.

01:59:21.000 I would have to reread.

01:59:22.000 It's been a while since I've read up on this.

01:59:24.000 You know what I love?

01:59:25.000 You said, when do you think life begins?

01:59:26.000 That was your question.

01:59:28.000 I love how framing changes everything.

01:59:29.000 Watch.

01:59:30.000 Ask me now.

01:59:31.000 Tim, when does life begin?

01:59:32.000 I think it was when proteins formed and started self-replicating in the primordial.

01:59:37.000 Oh, you mean conception?

01:59:38.000 You see, like, it's interesting how framing changes everything.

01:59:40.000 To me, it's more, I guess, for me, because any cell in our body is alive.

01:59:44.000 There is life and DNA in any bit of skin off my fingertip.

01:59:47.000 I wasn't meaning to poke at you or anything.

01:59:49.000 No, no, I know.

01:59:51.000 When does a life worthy of protection begin?

01:59:53.000 That's a difficult question.

01:59:54.000 To me, that's a better way to word it.

01:59:56.000 To me, that has to be a legal question because protection has to be arbited by an entity and it can't be.

02:00:01.000 And for me, that would probably be at birth.

02:00:02.000 I've heard people make convincing philosophical arguments that there are times after birth when you're not even a person.

02:00:07.000 And I've heard people make convincing arguments for conception.

02:00:10.000 But if you're talking about a legal entity, the birth thing seems to be the line that's the easiest to distinguish.

02:00:15.000 And there are other legal concerns as well.

02:00:17.000 But this is an issue that I think I'm...

02:00:20.000 Well, I always support a pro-choice argument.

02:00:23.000 The philosophy behind it is something I'm a little more open to.

02:00:26.000 So is it more on the size of the being or the level of development of the being or the environment of the being or the degree of dependency?

02:00:35.000 Which one do you think out of those things is the reason why you say birth?

02:00:39.000 The degree of dependency is legally worthwhile, but for consciousness, I think it's more about being an emergent property of experience.

02:00:39.000 I'm just curious.

02:00:47.000 So is it okay then if we just basically pull the plug on all the people that are kind of comatose and cucumbers on machines?

02:00:54.000 They really don't have self-consciousness and they're very dependent.

02:00:57.000 Well, I mean, legally, we do believe that because if you have, but it's not the same as murdering a person.

02:01:04.000 If there's conservatorship over a person who's brain dead, there are instances where you will be allowed to pull the plug.

02:01:10.000 This is...

02:01:10.000 You can't do so without an arbiter, though.

02:01:12.000 You can't just call in and say, just pull the plug.

02:01:14.000 That is murder.

02:01:16.000 Well, yeah, you can just yank it, of course.

02:01:17.000 You have to have approval and process.

02:01:19.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

02:01:19.000 But it does indicate that legally and morally, there is ambiguity with regards to the relationship between the two.

02:01:24.000 But it shows that there is an arbiter, though.

02:01:26.000 That you have to go through a system and check.

02:01:28.000 I didn't mean to derail ten.

02:01:29.000 Sorry, yeah.

02:01:30.000 I want to make sure we can get to as many questions as well.

02:01:31.000 Of course.

02:01:32.000 That was great.

02:01:33.000 Camilla Mamani says, WTF, a libertarian socialist, is like a meat-eater vegan. 0.59

02:01:40.000 Libertarianism was actually a left-leaning ideology.

02:01:43.000 It was co-opted in the early 20th centuries by capitalists.

02:01:47.000 But actually before that, libertarianism was exclusively in the purview of socialists.

02:01:52.000 And I believe what they believed, that freedom is the greatest human good, as long as it doesn't infringe upon others, and that the best way to achieve that freedom is through democracy.

02:02:00.000 We have political democracy, flawed as it is.

02:02:02.000 Economic democracy is something we should also strive for.

02:02:05.000 I'll tell you this.

02:02:07.000 Libertarian, left-libertarian quadrant is the hardest quadrant to be in.

02:02:12.000 You have the only persuasion tactics, the only if you're a left libertarian, which exists, you're basically saying, I like socialism.

02:02:19.000 Now I have to convince people that it's the right thing and they'll agree with me.

02:02:22.000 And people just won't, people won't.

02:02:25.000 I find left libertarians less threatening to the American way of life.

02:02:28.000 Oh, thank you.

02:02:29.000 Because you have a general distaste for authoritarianism.

02:02:32.000 Well, for what it's worth.

02:02:33.000 The right has money.

02:02:34.000 They're like, well, you won't agree with me, but I can give you money.

02:02:36.000 And they're like, the left does too.

02:02:38.000 Sorry, go ahead.

02:02:38.000 No, I just want to say, for what it's worth, there are some people who call themselves socialists who I actually think would agree probably more with you than with me.

02:02:44.000 Like people who support China, for example.

02:02:46.000 China's not socialist.

02:02:47.000 It's a rampant capitalist state.

02:02:49.000 It's a cronyist state, is really what it is.

02:02:50.000 Right.

02:02:50.000 Well, I mean, whatever you want to call it.

02:02:51.000 It's certainly not what I want, you know.

02:02:53.000 So there are people who will defend that.

02:02:54.000 And I can't help but think, like, okay, these are conservative, what'd you call them, traditionalist social positions.

02:03:00.000 And you defend, you know, a strong state with a strong common will towards the betterment of the state and a free market.

02:03:06.000 I don't know.

02:03:07.000 You know, maybe that'll be, what would they call that?

02:03:09.000 The Red-Brown Alliance? 0.94

02:03:10.000 No, I'm joking.

02:03:11.000 In a way.

02:03:12.000 So I've got a question for Charlie.

02:03:13.000 Sure.

02:03:14.000 I'm not sure.

02:03:15.000 Are you familiar with Alden's theory?

02:03:17.000 No.

02:03:17.000 You're not?

02:03:18.000 Oh, okay.

02:03:18.000 Then I guess I want to answer that question then.

02:03:20.000 All right.

02:03:21.000 Then the next question would be for both of you is, what is the single biggest political issue for each of you?

02:03:26.000 And Charlie, if you want to answer first.

02:03:28.000 Yeah, I mean, that's a great question.

02:03:29.000 Political.

02:03:30.000 What comes up for 2022?

02:03:32.000 Oh, like, I could take that anyway, I guess, right?

02:03:35.000 You know, what should Republicans run on, I guess?

02:03:37.000 Or like, what is the biggest issue?

02:03:39.000 Yeah, I mean, man, it's, I'd say the way we do elections in our country is definitely up there.

02:03:45.000 Big tech is massive.

02:03:47.000 Immigration is huge.

02:03:49.000 But I think even something more fundamental that I was trying, I think we almost achieved it tonight, which is that we're about to tear this country apart.

02:03:56.000 And I think dialogue is something that is so beautiful and is so complex and almost spiritual in nature that if we don't have dialogue with people that you fundamentally disagree with, then there's really not a middle ground until you start ripping each other apart.

02:04:11.000 And I'm really afraid of that.

02:04:13.000 What's your, yeah, what's the biggest issue of 2022?

02:04:15.000 I agree that the political rift is almost insurmountable, seeming.

02:04:20.000 The last time we had won this bad was pre-Civil War, and we didn't really fix it.

02:04:24.000 We just had a civil war, and people were still mad after.

02:04:27.000 So I hope that doesn't happen.

02:04:29.000 I don't think we're going to have a civil war, by the way.

02:04:31.000 There are some people.

02:04:32.000 I think that at the end of the day, there's a big difference between the problems we're told to care about and the problems we're willing to fight about.

02:04:39.000 And I'm not entirely sure if I know where those lines are, but I know there's a difference.

02:04:43.000 With regards to what I'd care about, for me, it has to be climate change.

02:04:46.000 I know a lot of people roll their eyes at this stuff, but you can take a look at the polar ice caps.

02:04:51.000 You can take a look at the weather disasters we've been having, increasing both in frequency and intensity.

02:04:55.000 This isn't like a, like, look, think of it this way, okay?

02:04:58.000 I believe in American industry, all right?

02:05:00.000 It's a little too late for us to be firstcomers, but if we really wanted to, we could subsidize the hell out of green energy.

02:05:05.000 You think we're doing it now?

02:05:06.000 Triple that, okay?

02:05:07.000 Really lay the groundwork.

02:05:09.000 In 20 years, we'll be selling the rest of the world the energy they'll need to survive.

02:05:13.000 You know what really breaks my heart is the video I made before the actual Green New Deal talking about how we needed a Green New Deal, and then AOC's Green New Deal was like equity and college and healthcare.

02:05:25.000 And then the botched FAQ.

02:05:27.000 And I was like, I'm talking about why are we spending money on war when we could be researching green technologies and more efficient energy, thorium salt reactors, things like that, get fusion to ignite.

02:05:37.000 Instead, we get this like racial equity garbage bill.

02:05:40.000 I had this.

02:05:42.000 Well, I do like the Green New Deal, but I had this problem too with that teachers' union board, the one that affirmed CRT, said they're going to.

02:05:49.000 The National Education Association.

02:05:50.000 Yeah, it was also a union, but maybe it was.

02:05:52.000 NEA, that's what it is.

02:05:53.000 Okay.

02:05:53.000 It's the largest teaching union in the country.

02:05:55.000 And first of all, what they said wasn't CRT, but I'll take that with them about the words.

02:05:59.000 They did.

02:06:01.000 And still, they got that wrong.

02:06:03.000 So if I ever argue with what we've been taught, woke-ism.

02:06:06.000 Yeah, I just, oh, man, it's because the theory is cool.

02:06:09.000 You know, it's you wouldn't agree with it, but it's interesting.

02:06:12.000 No, no, no, I want to say something.

02:06:14.000 I do not think it's cool.

02:06:15.000 And I think the theory is awesome.

02:06:17.000 It's like the theory of communism.

02:06:18.000 We should have a class, a philosophy class, where you learn about critical race theory.

02:06:22.000 Teaching it in practice to children is a different idea.

02:06:25.000 So, I actually, in response to my absolute failure in giving you the adequate response in our last conversation, did pull up critical race theory by Kimberly Crenshaw and actually read what she was talking about.

02:06:35.000 And I think the idea of the oppressed versus oppressor and race is a horrible thing when we're trying to get away from that.

02:06:41.000 And I had a conversation with an actual racist recently, and the ideas to me are absolutely nonsensical to base things on race.

02:06:48.000 Coming from an actual racist who was advocating for the same things in that book, I was like, So you're happy with this stuff?

02:06:54.000 Like, well, no, because the wrong side's in charge.

02:06:56.000 And then I had to explain to them, like, I do not see the world the way you do.

02:06:58.000 And he says, well, that's the trouble with race mixing. 0.99

02:07:01.000 And that's and no, that's exactly this is what I see when I talk to when I talk to people who are in favor of critical race theory's core ideology and white nationalists. 0.97

02:07:09.000 They tell me the same garbage in different ways.

02:07:12.000 Look, I have always been a firm supporter of the idea that the ideas should be what's criticized, not like the people who make them. 0.76

02:07:18.000 Sometimes, for example, people will make fun of me because I talk on class issues and I'm from Beverly Hills, and I accept the jibing.

02:07:24.000 You know, it's fine.

02:07:25.000 But I think anyone can speak in this stuff.

02:07:26.000 To be fair, this is id poll, and everyone does it to an extent.

02:07:30.000 Candace Owens will deflect criticisms of racism by saying she's black. 0.99

02:07:33.000 We've all seen people do this.

02:07:35.000 The only thing I wanted to say, because I have to move back like six points here, is that with regards to the teachers' board, yeah, you spoke on and the Green New Deal, I sometimes feel like the left is a little bit bad when it comes to mixing all their causes.

02:07:48.000 If they, speaking of separatism, if they kept things a little bit more stringent, a little more focused, maybe they could get people to agree on some of it.

02:07:54.000 But if every push for climate change is also every other progressive note, and every push for racial equality is every other progressive note, it feels like it's like an all-or-nothing package.

02:08:04.000 And I think that can put some people off.

02:08:06.000 I wanted to just clarify quickly and to inject my id poll, as you mentioned, you know, Candace Owens would do it. 1.00

02:08:11.000 I would.

02:08:12.000 And a lot of people are always mentioning, you know, Timpo mentions he's mixed race.

02:08:15.000 And I'm like, maybe that's why you'll understand when people are writing like whiteness this and people of color that.

02:08:20.000 I'm like, I don't exist in that world because I've been discriminated against by all of these people.

02:08:25.000 And when that person said to me, you know, the perils of mixed racing or race mixing, he's talking about me personally, saying, I don't understand the tribalist worldview of racialists and identitarians because I've never experienced what it means to be in a racial tribe.

02:08:37.000 And you know what?

02:08:37.000 I think he's right.

02:08:38.000 And that's why I love the classical liberal view of opposition to racism, judging people based on the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

02:08:47.000 Because I see this world that's being built critical of whiteness that includes me, but then it's always the negative.

02:08:54.000 Every experience I've ever had, be it from white nationalists or from critical race theorists, is that you are bad for whatever reason.

02:09:00.000 I do not want to live in a world where race is the predeterminant policy maker or factor on these things.

02:09:07.000 And you know what?

02:09:08.000 For the progressives to come out right now and claim civil rights and say we did all these things and then tell me I now face that detriment, I'm like, you know what, man, my grandparents, civil rights activists, race mixers, my actual parents also mix in races and stuff.

02:09:21.000 And I'm like, I have to, I can now look at the progressives who are putting a detriment on my life and insulting me no matter what I do, and the white nationalists who vandalized my home as a child.

02:09:31.000 And it's the world that you're taking credit for that you're trying now to put a detriment for people like me.

02:09:37.000 It could to me, it could be a matter of perception as well.

02:09:40.000 I've read a lot of like academic critiques of whiteness, which isn't white people.

02:09:44.000 It's sort of a.

02:09:45.000 That's not true at all.

02:09:46.000 Well, it's an academic term to describe affectations associated with white people culturally, more so than the actual act of being.

02:09:54.000 But black and brown literally means black and brown.

02:09:56.000 If there was a critique of white people, what's blackness?

02:09:58.000 What would you think of that?

02:09:59.000 Well, if it was an academic term used in that way, then I would think of it the same way.

02:10:03.000 But since there isn't such a term, I would have to be critical.

02:10:05.000 If you look, regardless of the etymology of the term, in concept, it's meant to be like, you know, the term toxic masculinity.

02:10:13.000 Yeah, I've heard it once or twice.

02:10:14.000 A couple of times, you know.

02:10:15.000 When I read stuff like that, it's interesting stuff, you know.

02:10:18.000 I don't think of this, all men are bad, all masculinity is bad.

02:10:21.000 It's more of a salient critique of certain cultural trends.

02:10:23.000 Now, the problem that I have is essentialism.

02:10:26.000 Some people will take this on both the left and the right, and they'll think of it as an individual critique, which it should never be used as.

02:10:33.000 If I were to say something like, imagine I'm reading MLK back in 1953, you know, MLK had some things to say about white people back during his era.

02:10:42.000 He would say that, you know, the whites of this era are unconcerned with the plight of black people, except he didn't say black people.

02:10:48.000 And this is a non-essentialist critique.

02:10:50.000 He didn't believe in racial essentialism.

02:10:52.000 He wouldn't go up to an individual white person and judge them negatively for that, but he understood that as a cultural trend, this is indeed a pattern he recognizes.

02:10:59.000 So massive group stereotyping.

02:11:00.000 Well, massive group stereotyping that's been done by every civil rights movement to have ever existed.

02:11:06.000 Maybe the issue isn't the stereotyping so much as the way it's being applied and used.

02:11:11.000 If the stereotyping is, I notice there's a big difference in abolitionist thoughts between white and black people in southern America in 1852.

02:11:21.000 Maybe that's the kind of stereotyping that can be used for good.

02:11:23.000 Also, stereotyping by definition is assuming characteristics of an individual because of their part of a person.

02:11:28.000 It's close to what MLK was saying when he said white liberals.

02:11:31.000 I mean, that's.

02:11:32.000 You wouldn't apply it to an individual, though.

02:11:33.000 I mean, I've made comments about groups, people who play League of Legends, degenerates, a lot of them.

02:11:40.000 But I know people who play League of Legends.

02:11:43.000 And when I talk about people who play League of Legends, I'm not talking about them.

02:11:47.000 I'm talking about people who play League of Legends.

02:11:49.000 So I want to ask you about the climate change thing.

02:11:51.000 What do you think is a bigger threat, climate change or China?

02:11:55.000 To the world or to America? 0.50

02:11:57.000 To you, the world, America.

02:11:59.000 I think it's still climate change.

02:12:00.000 I think China is probably going to replace us as the dominant power. 0.76

02:12:03.000 I'm not really happy about that because we're more democratic than they are in terms of our political structure.

02:12:08.000 If they had a better democracy, I might favor them over us because I don't really care about national allegiances.

02:12:13.000 But we are more democratic than them.

02:12:15.000 So the climate change thing is an issue that'll affect us all, though.

02:12:18.000 The big one's going to be climate refugees. 1.00

02:12:20.000 There are a lot of low-lying coastal communities that are going to be inhospitable to life in about 40 years, and they're going to move out into populated areas.

02:12:28.000 And there's going to be border conflicts and war.

02:12:31.000 It's going to be tough.

02:12:32.000 We're not going to be able to get to every single person.

02:12:33.000 I'm so sorry.

02:12:34.000 No, no, no, no.

02:12:35.000 It's no big deal because I think it's more important that you guys are having these arguments.

02:12:38.000 So I'm not going to interrupt you when you're actually debating the ideas.

02:12:40.000 That's the point.

02:12:41.000 But a lot of people did Super Chat.

02:12:43.000 Just know that you guys, Super Chat's greatly appreciated.

02:12:45.000 There's a whole lot of them.

02:12:46.000 We love you.

02:12:48.000 But I've got one critical for you, Vosh. 1.00

02:12:52.000 Hit me up.

02:12:52.000 Nasho Nabo says, Vosh is a black person who grew up in majority white areas.

02:12:56.000 Those conversations are very demoralizing to be a part of.

02:13:00.000 I don't doubt your intentions, but it's best to speak to people affected by your ideas before trying to implement them as our white savior. 0.88

02:13:07.000 I don't appreciate the white savior critique because that's just the opposite end of idpoll, isn't it?

02:13:12.000 Saying that I'm less inclined to talk about these issues because I'm white.

02:13:16.000 Like, that's kind of like the opposite of that.

02:13:17.000 I agree.

02:13:17.000 I think address the idea.

02:13:18.000 I agree with that too.

02:13:20.000 But with regards to like the implementation here, obviously, like social problems like this, addressing them is going to be contentious no matter what.

02:13:28.000 I don't know if there's a way to do this, to fix any problem, even the most obvious problems.

02:13:32.000 Today we think slavery, obviously that's bad, but clearly there was some disagreement.

02:13:36.000 With issues like this, there's going to be disagreement.

02:13:38.000 I don't know if there's a perfect way to handle it.

02:13:40.000 Anything is going to mix people up.

02:13:42.000 I have to balance that concern with the hope that in the future people become more accepting of these issues.

02:13:49.000 A good example of that would be like gender stuff, for example.

02:13:52.000 In terms of like, if you look at it generationally, from boomers to Gen Z, Gen Z people are like 30 times as likely to know a person who identifies as trans or non-binary or whatever.

02:14:03.000 And for that reason, conversations on those subjects have become significantly easier just because people have been exposed to the concept.

02:14:10.000 Maybe in time this will be easier.

02:14:12.000 Maybe I'll fail.

02:14:13.000 We'll all fail and it won't be.

02:14:15.000 But I am sorry that these conversations are difficult.

02:14:20.000 All right, let's see.

02:14:21.000 Well, I got to be honest.

02:14:23.000 The overwhelming majority of the super chats are just saying thank you for having a conversation.

02:14:27.000 Those are the overwhelming majority ones that I copied.

02:14:29.000 No, no, no.

02:14:30.000 I was looking at it.

02:14:31.000 I thought you had all the questions.

02:14:32.000 So I was like, okay, I can see everyone very excited.

02:14:34.000 That's why I read the first one.

02:14:36.000 And some people have pointed out that in a conversational format, you are both less derisive and divisive in your arguments.

02:14:47.000 All YouTubers should be. 1.00

02:14:48.000 Try to be nice in my streams.

02:14:50.000 So here's an interesting and kind of specific question.

02:14:54.000 Joshua Alley asks, should courts decide cases based on rule of law and precedence or decide each case based entirely on rationality and morality?

02:15:05.000 No, go ahead.

02:15:06.000 Yeah, it needs to be a balance.

02:15:08.000 Precedence definitely matters, especially in the American system.

02:15:12.000 And the idea of the whole third branch of government really kind of came into question with Marbury versus Madison, with the first Supreme Court Justice of the United States, John Jay, I believe, who was one of the co-authors of the Federalist Papers.

02:15:25.000 Precedent is important, but it's not everything.

02:15:27.000 And this is a super important thing that conservatives need to talk more about, which I think you would agree with, Vosh, is that precedents can be really bad.

02:15:34.000 Dred Scott was awful precedent. 0.94

02:15:36.000 It was really bad. 0.89

02:15:37.000 It was seven Democrat, U.S. Supreme Court justices, two Democrats that said black people were not people.

02:15:43.000 And that precedent was in law basically for many decades until it was eventually reversed, largely because of the Brown versus Board of Education.

02:15:51.000 But precedent also is helpful so that you don't turn the courts into another legislative branch, right?

02:15:58.000 So the courts are supposed to be very unique and they're supposed to be deliberative, process-oriented, say no to more cases than they say yes to.

02:16:06.000 And so the question is, where do you strike that balance?

02:16:09.000 Alexander Hamilton predicted that it would be mostly based on public opinion, that judges are still people too, and they're going to look to public opinion.

02:16:18.000 This goes to more of a Democratic argument than a Republic-style argument.

02:16:21.000 I will defend precedent more than overturning, but I definitely think the court has gone wrong in a variety of different decisions in the last 60 years.

02:16:31.000 And I think that what happens is you have very activist decisions, and then they decide not to look at it again under a conservative belief of precedent.

02:16:40.000 I think I would lean more towards precedent, though, or sorry, as well, though maybe for a different reason.

02:16:46.000 I think it's because we need accountability.

02:16:48.000 The problem is if judicial decisions are entirely at the discretion of the judge, it becomes very difficult to correct legal trends through anything other than appoint better judges, which can be an incredibly long-standing process.

02:17:00.000 And even then, it's what, a crapshoot?

02:17:02.000 I mean, you don't know everyone's opinion on everything.

02:17:04.000 That being said, I do think that to an extent judges are legislators.

02:17:08.000 This is actually a critical legal theory perspective, which fed into CRT, the idea that within the bounds of discretion, judges will almost always side with the political biases they have.

02:17:20.000 And that's not like a dig on any side.

02:17:22.000 That's just what we are.

02:17:23.000 That judges who identify as liberal or conservative will overwhelmingly side with each other in the plurality of cases because our biases do inform us.

02:17:31.000 I think that we have to recognize that's a reality, but we do have to constrain the process through judicial precedent or otherwise it's just throwing darts at a wall.

02:17:39.000 I just want to point out one of the super chats noted that we were trending.

02:17:43.000 Is that right?

02:17:43.000 And so I'm like, on Twitter or on YouTube?

02:17:45.000 On Twitter, but it says content creator Vosh debates with radio talk show host Charlie Kirk on Twitch.

02:17:51.000 Oh, that Amazon program on YouTube.

02:17:56.000 I just thought it was funny that it wasn't.

02:17:57.000 Well, at least we're trending.

02:17:59.000 But it's like, it's like, how did you get that wrong?

02:18:00.000 Unless somebody's like screen grabbing.

02:18:03.000 Hey, listen, after the Twitter trending title descriptor had to spend like six weeks in a row describing everything that happened with those Minecraft YouTubers, I feel like this is a they're a little bit off their game.

02:18:15.000 Maybe somebody's restreaming it on Twitch or whatever.

02:18:18.000 You know, just copyright infringement.

02:18:19.000 I'm just kidding.

02:18:20.000 I know that I know that Shu did a stream commentating on us.

02:18:24.000 Oh, really?

02:18:25.000 Maybe that was on Twitch.

02:18:26.000 All right.

02:18:27.000 So we got one from Dylan Perrick.

02:18:29.000 He says, Do you guys think philosophy could be taught instead of CRT, like Plato's Allegory and the Cave?

02:18:35.000 In my opinion, stuff like this helps people better understand one another individually.

02:18:40.000 I'm hugely in favor of more theoretical classes being taught to high schoolers, philosophy, sociology, and I don't know what the modern equivalent of like finances or home ec would be, but something like that.

02:18:52.000 Kids graduate, they don't know anything about anything when it comes to managing their finances, which is weird.

02:18:57.000 We agree.

02:18:58.000 Because that will destroy them if they don't.

02:19:00.000 Like, why do we teach them that?

02:19:01.000 Philosophy, everyone should be learned on, just flat out.

02:19:04.000 That's just, I think that's a moral necessity.

02:19:06.000 And when it comes to sociology, I'm not even talking like left-leaning inclinations on that.

02:19:11.000 I mean like the basic ability to read like statistical information on what's going on, because for the rest of their lives, they're going to be asked to vote based on political information they don't have the education to understand.

02:19:21.000 Yeah, I mean, philosophy comes from a Greek word, love of wisdom, philosophos, and we definitely don't have that right now in our country.

02:19:28.000 And yeah, I mean, I'm a big fan of teaching it.

02:19:30.000 I just want to teach it correctly.

02:19:31.000 I'd say a lot less Nietzsche and Kant and Hume and a lot more Aristotle and Locke and Aquinas and Augustine.

02:19:37.000 And I think the problem is, though, if philosophy, if left on, if not, so Plato would say this.

02:19:43.000 So Plato would say, I'm not going to teach philosophy until you could do advanced Euclidean geometry.

02:19:47.000 It was his rule.

02:19:48.000 Now, why would he have that rule?

02:19:50.000 He's like, if you can't think rationally and be able to determine good ideas from bad ideas in the empirical, I'm not going to even get close to teaching you about the allegory of the cave or the ship or Plato's Republic or the forms.

02:20:00.000 So I think there's actually something to that.

02:20:02.000 That if you introduce philosophy too early, you can create kind of one-liner philosophers that think they understand the entire world.

02:20:10.000 And it really goes to that expression: the more I know, the more I realize how little I knew when I thought I knew it all.

02:20:15.000 That's the kind of that idea of daring to know.

02:20:17.000 The corollary is true, too.

02:20:19.000 You know, the scientists who worked in the Manhattan Project, many of them said they cultivated inspiration from religion and from philosophy, completely outside the bound of physics, but it got their brain a jogging, you know?

02:20:30.000 So I'd love to talk to you about religion and just like where you think that fits into a functioning.

02:20:34.000 We should definitely talk about religion.

02:20:35.000 This would be really, really interesting.

02:20:37.000 Why don't we do this?

02:20:38.000 We'll move to the members only a second.

02:20:40.000 We'll focus on religion.

02:20:41.000 And for everybody who super chatted, I know I really wish I could get to every single question and comment, but when you guys ask a question and you guys have that debate, that's the point of this.

02:20:50.000 So, you know, I try to do as many as we could.

02:20:52.000 I do like talking.

02:20:54.000 I thought it was better to let you guys talk instead of constantly trying to just cut off the actual discussion and the flow of things.

02:20:59.000 So my apologies to everybody who super chatted.

02:21:01.000 But if you go to Timcast.com, become a member, we are going to now have another conversation, which I don't believe will be up by 11 p.m. this time because debating religion, I absolutely love the religious conversations we've had on this show on Timcast IRL.

02:21:12.000 So it'll be at Timcast.com.

02:21:14.000 Smash that like button, subscribe to this channel, share the show with your friends.

02:21:18.000 And do you guys want to shout?

02:21:20.000 You can follow us at Timcast IRL.

02:21:21.000 You can follow me at Timcast.

02:21:22.000 Do you guys want to mention any social media stuff?

02:21:24.000 If you guys could subscribe to the YouTube channel and hit the bell, we'd be blessed by that.

02:21:28.000 And also check out rumble.com so you don't get censored.

02:21:30.000 R-U-M-B-L-D.com. 0.99

02:21:33.000 My name is Vosh, and I'm on YouTube.

02:21:35.000 That's V-A-U-S-H. 1.00

02:21:38.000 I don't know.

02:21:39.000 Thank you.

02:21:40.000 Get your vaccination and vote Biden for more censorship to add, to expand upon these things.

02:21:46.000 Don't do good decisions.

02:21:49.000 Make good decisions.

02:21:50.000 Yeah, there you're talking to your doctor about what's right for you.

02:21:53.000 Don't take medical opinions from people on the talk to your doctor about voting for Biden.

02:21:57.000 Oh, yeah, that's right.

02:21:59.000 Hey, depending on where you live, your doctor might say no.

02:22:02.000 So I love you guys.

02:22:03.000 Thank you for coming.

02:22:03.000 This is great, man.

02:22:04.000 And there's a lot of super chats, people are pointing out, like, they don't even have, you don't even have to agree with anyone here.

02:22:09.000 Just the fact that we're having conversation is like the spirit of freedom.

02:22:15.000 I really love naming the philosophers and then you're like, oh, that was, that was fun.

02:22:19.000 I love that.

02:22:20.000 The extra segment, just wait.

02:22:22.000 Oh, man.

02:22:22.000 I'm stoked.

02:22:23.000 Yeah, I'm not read up on religious theory.

02:22:26.000 So five proofs of God, you better be ready to go through this.

02:22:29.000 All right.

02:22:31.000 All right.

02:22:32.000 Lydia.

02:22:32.000 Oh, yeah.

02:22:33.000 I'm also here in the corner.

02:22:34.000 This is wonderful conversation.

02:22:35.000 I agree with that super chat.

02:22:37.000 I was actually at the bar earlier today and enjoying conversations that somebody just picked up with somebody else.

02:22:41.000 It's like, you know what?

02:22:42.000 He's right.

02:22:43.000 And I love it.

02:22:44.000 I love being able to just have this kind of conversation.

02:22:45.000 I really miss that about our society.

02:22:47.000 So here's what I want to do.

02:22:50.000 I really want to dive in and question socialism.

02:22:53.000 And we'll start with talking about religion.

02:22:54.000 And then so go to Timcast.com, members-only segment will be up when it's up because we're not going to go forever, but we'll probably have a good conversation.

02:23:00.000 So thanks for hanging out for the live version.

02:23:04.000 And we'll see you all in an hour or so over at Timcast.com.

02:23:07.000 Again, sincere thanks to everybody who hung out.

02:23:09.000 Smash that like button on your way out and we'll see you soon.

02:23:11.000 Bye, guys.

02:23:15.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

02:23:16.000 Again, if you guys want to thank Tim Poole for hosting that conversation, it's Timcast.com, My Conversation with Vauch.

02:23:22.000 And if you guys want to support our program, it's charliekirk.com slash support.

02:23:26.000 Thank you guys so much for listening.

02:23:28.000 God bless.

02:23:31.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - September 04, 2021

A Civil Debate with Someone Whom I Completely Disagree ft. Vaush and Tim Pool

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