The Charlie Kirk Show - A Wise, Contrarian Take on War in Ukraine with Col. Douglas Macgregor

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk show, Colonel McGregor joins us.

00:00:04.000 He made headlines for his commentary on Russia, and we asked him about it.

00:00:08.000 And the Russian-Ukrainian dispute happening, he has a very specific opinion.

00:00:13.000 And I think it's really interesting to hear another side.

00:00:15.000 You've been only hearing one side of the Ukrainian situation.

00:00:18.000 He has a different one to offer.

00:00:20.000 Also joined by Jack Pesobic, who helps us unpack what is happening in Russia and Ukraine.

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00:00:51.000 Very important episode.

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00:01:03.000 Here we go.

00:01:04.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

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00:01:45.000 In just a moment, we will be joined by Colonel Douglas McGregor.

00:01:49.000 Now, Colonel Douglas McGregor is an American patriot.

00:01:52.000 He served our country faithfully and loyally.

00:01:54.000 He's a very smart man and someone who should be taken very seriously.

00:01:58.000 Colonel Douglas McGregor went on television recently and had a contrarian opinion about the Russian-Ukrainian situation.

00:02:05.000 Now, we've commented on the Russian-Ukrainian situation in some great detail, but we're by no means experts.

00:02:11.000 I have not served in any capacity at all in the United States military in a combat theater.

00:02:16.000 Colonel Douglas McGregor knows geopolitics much better than almost anybody of the chattering class on television.

00:02:22.000 Colonel Douglas McGregor went on TV and made the argument that this is not America's fight, that we should allow Putin to do what he wants to do in Ukraine.

00:02:31.000 Now, I'm almost paraphrasing, but that was about the essence of what he said in his commentary.

00:02:36.000 In fact, we have him on in a second.

00:02:37.000 I want to play what he said while we're waiting to get him on here.

00:02:42.000 Let's play cut seven.

00:02:43.000 This is not the liberal democracy, the shining example that everyone says it is.

00:02:48.000 Far from it.

00:02:48.000 Mr. Zelensky has jailed journalists and his political opposition.

00:02:53.000 I think we need to stay out of it.

00:02:54.000 The American people think we should stay out of it.

00:02:56.000 The Europeans think we should stay out of it.

00:02:58.000 And we should stop shipping weapons and encouraging Ukrainians to die in what is a hopeless endeavor.

00:03:05.000 So when you say stay out of it, you mean no sanctions, no military aid, just let Russia take the portion of Ukraine they want to take.

00:03:15.000 Yes, absolutely.

00:03:16.000 I see no reason why we should fight with the Russians over something that they have been talking about for years.

00:03:22.000 We simply chose to ignore it.

00:03:24.000 So that commentary right there of saying that this is not our fight, which again, we have a mixed position on that, but I think it's very well informed and I think it's very interesting, was met with such extreme backlash.

00:03:39.000 In fact, the media has categorized a United States colonel as, quote, a Putin apologist, is what the Independent said.

00:03:47.000 They said he's a Russian puppet.

00:03:49.000 Well, we're used to that kind of commentary and that sort of line of nonsense.

00:03:55.000 Now, this started this dispute on Fox News between Colonel McGregor and Jennifer Griffin, went back and forth and back and forth, kind of in a nonsensical way.

00:04:05.000 However, it does beg the question that when you have a very murky, smoggy, cloudy, and confusing situation, why is it that the single person that has a dissenting voice gets immediately attacked and receives backlash?

00:04:21.000 The dissenting voice in this particular situation is very rare to come across.

00:04:26.000 It seems that every single person coming on TV is in a competition to try to ramp up the conflict in Ukraine.

00:04:34.000 And again, that might be what some of you believe in.

00:04:38.000 You might say, you know what, we do need to ramp up the conflict.

00:04:43.000 Well, then go through Congress.

00:04:45.000 At least do it right.

00:04:46.000 Go through the congressional channels and the congressional protocol.

00:04:50.000 Don't just give Biden the power to be able to get us into this situation unilaterally without any sort of check or balance.

00:05:00.000 Going to war is a big deal.

00:05:02.000 And supplying weapons can very well lead you to war.

00:05:06.000 Congress has to be the vehicle and the way to be able to make that happen.

00:05:11.000 I want to play the response that Jennifer Griffin had, and she responded to Colonel McGregor.

00:05:17.000 And I'm going to ask him for his response of her response as he comes on here, which is cut nine, where Jennifer Griffin responds to Colonel McGregor right afterwards.

00:05:26.000 Play cut nine.

00:05:28.000 I just heard your last guess, and I feel like I need to correct some of the things that Colonel Doug McGregor just said, because, and I'm not sure 10 minutes is enough time to do so, because there were so many distortions in what he just said, and talking about the West and NATO vilifying Putin and sounding like an apologist for Putin.

00:05:46.000 So those, what he just said was so distorted that I do feel that our audience needs to know the truth.

00:05:53.000 She continued.

00:05:54.000 Let me see the other clip here that she was on here.

00:05:58.000 She continued by on cut 18.

00:06:00.000 Let's play cut 18, please.

00:06:01.000 And talking about how Putin he thinks he knows how far Putin wants to go.

00:06:06.000 I don't think anyone that I've spoken to here at the Pentagon or elsewhere in Western intelligence believes they know how far Putin wants to go.

00:06:14.000 And I think that the world has seen what Putin is capable of.

00:06:18.000 And to blame NATO membership for what we've seen Putin unleash, we've seen from Putin's own words that he is talking in czarist terms from a 18th, 19th century view of empirical, imperial Russia.

00:06:34.000 Debate is good in situations like this.

00:06:36.000 When there is a consensus that they keep on putting on television, you're not allowed to have any sort of nuance or any sort of difference of opinion.

00:06:45.000 And then that's usually when really bad things happen.

00:06:47.000 That's usually when you get situations like when you invade Iraq or when you lock down your entire country.

00:06:53.000 So with us right now is Colonel McGregor himself.

00:06:57.000 And I want to explore this with him.

00:06:58.000 Colonel, thank you so much for joining the Charlie Kirk show.

00:07:01.000 Charlie, thank you for inviting me.

00:07:03.000 So Colonel, we kind of went through some of your commentary that you had on Fox News that was, let's say, made headlines.

00:07:12.000 Walk us through your position on the Russian-Ukrainian conflict and why you believe America should not intervene.

00:07:19.000 Well, first of all, I think it's very important that the president make it clear repeatedly that we will not intervene.

00:07:26.000 He said that early on, but some of his comments indicated that he was waffling.

00:07:32.000 And it got a little sticky yesterday because the polls thought that they could turn over several MiG-29 jets to the Ukrainians.

00:07:41.000 And finally, the Secretary General flew in to stop it.

00:07:45.000 First of all, you don't ever, ever want to challenge a major military power on that power's doorstep.

00:07:52.000 I mean, the worst possible place to take on Russian forces is on Russia's border.

00:07:57.000 It's just stupid.

00:07:59.000 You have no way to be successful.

00:08:01.000 Secondly, we are very dependent upon air power, and we are way behind in the air defense department.

00:08:08.000 We have not spent intelligently, and we have not created effective air defenses against missiles and aircraft for our forces on the ground.

00:08:18.000 So if we went into this, we risk being naked effectively in the face of air power.

00:08:23.000 And then our own air power would likely be shot to pieces by Russian air defenses, even though they won't admit it.

00:08:31.000 Truthfully, they know whether you're stealthy or not, they have extraordinarily effective air defenses and radars that will track and shoot us down.

00:08:40.000 So from a standpoint of capability, the best thing we can do is stay behind NATO's borders and effectively watch.

00:08:48.000 If the Russians were to advance towards the eastern border of NATO, then we could repel them in all probability.

00:08:56.000 But it's even questionable as to whether or not we could manage that, particularly on the border with Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia.

00:09:04.000 And then finally, none of this has anything to do with us except that tragically over the last 20 years, some would argue even longer, we have been trying to transform Ukraine into some sort of lethal instrument that can be used against Russia.

00:09:20.000 That's simply unacceptable to Mr. Putin, and he's made that clear repeatedly.

00:09:25.000 President Trump was very, very personally uncomfortable with the notion that we should aid the Ukrainians.

00:09:31.000 He felt it would set them up for failure, and they would be needlessly killed.

00:09:35.000 He was correct.

00:09:37.000 That is now happening.

00:09:38.000 And this Ukrainian state construct is not real.

00:09:42.000 It includes far too many people who are, frankly, not Ukrainian.

00:09:45.000 They're Russians and places that were never part of historic Ukraine.

00:09:50.000 The Russians have complained about this.

00:09:52.000 This is not something that we did.

00:09:54.000 It's a consequence of communist rule because remember, the communists, in order to rule, were always pitting people against each other.

00:10:01.000 So they would create these things in the hope that people would hate each other more than they hated Moscow.

00:10:06.000 The point is, we need to stay out.

00:10:08.000 This is not some sort of brilliant liberal democracy shining city on a hill somewhere.

00:10:14.000 Far from it.

00:10:15.000 Ukraine is actually more corrupt than Russia, more corrupt than most states in the world today.

00:10:20.000 It's a catastrophe.

00:10:22.000 We need to stay out, and we need to let the Russians and the Ukrainians sort this out.

00:10:27.000 I hope the Ukrainians will talk to the Russians and act in good faith because thus far they haven't.

00:10:32.000 Well, that's one of the smartest points I've heard anyone make, which is why would you fight a country right at their doorstep, 5,000 miles away from our country?

00:10:40.000 That's really smart, and I haven't heard anyone say that on television.

00:10:44.000 And you're right.

00:10:45.000 Ukraine was a Petri dish for the global American empire via the State Department.

00:10:52.000 And they tried to do everything they possibly could to try to make Ukrainian government in the form and of the shape of whatever globalist project that they want to explore.

00:11:05.000 I think a lot of people agree with your commentary, but some people in America, and I think this is a good, I think it's a virtue of the American people, they don't like seeing injustice or bullies on the march while we sit and do nothing.

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00:12:37.000 Colonel, I'll be honest: you know, I don't like seeing a strong country invade a smaller country, albeit even though Ukraine is very corrupt.

00:12:45.000 I totally agree with that.

00:12:47.000 And I can understand, even though I have to stop myself of this, you know, of this impulse to want to help, to want to intervene, to want to try to help the quote-unquote good guys.

00:12:58.000 Why is that much more complicated than the cable news people are making it seem?

00:13:02.000 And why would that be a horrendous mistake?

00:13:05.000 Of course, millions of people inside Ukraine who are Russian, who speak Russian, are culturally Russian, who identify as Russian, have been forced over the last 10 years, increasingly, really forced physically to adopt Ukrainian language, Ukrainian culture, and Ukrainian identity.

00:13:25.000 And they don't want it.

00:13:27.000 And this matter has not escaped attention in Moscow.

00:13:31.000 Moscow has pleaded with Kiev for more tolerance, a more tolerant approach to the Russians that live inside their borders who are simply not Ukrainian.

00:13:40.000 The Ukrainians have taken a very hard line on this.

00:13:44.000 When I say Ukrainians, you have to understand that these are some of the most radical elements, most of whom do not live in eastern Ukraine, but they are the ones who are by far the most violent and the most insistent on this Ukrainianization, if you will, of the Russians.

00:14:00.000 And during the Maidan Revolution in 2014, there was a lot of fighting in many places, and large numbers of Russians were simply murdered.

00:14:08.000 In fact, Odessa was the scene of some very horrific killings involving herding Russians into buildings and then destroying and burning the buildings.

00:14:17.000 All of these things left a permanent impact.

00:14:20.000 When you add to this the very high probability that we were planning to station forces in Ukraine, including missile forces, it was very obvious when Putin seized Crimea that we were going to try and use that naval base in the Black Sea for U.S. and NATO naval forces.

00:14:37.000 He also saw the presence of thousands of U.S. advisors, huge numbers of intelligence operatives moving into the country and taking control of particular facilities, all aimed at Russia, at subverting Russia, destabilizing Russia, because the biggest advocates for Ukraine are also the biggest advocates for regime change in Moscow.

00:14:59.000 It's no surprise at all what Putin did to put an end to this.

00:15:04.000 So this is by no means malevolent or malicious toward the Ukrainian population.

00:15:09.000 In fact, this could have been over, I would say, at least a week ago, except that Putin initially gave strict instructions to his officers that he did not want strikes from the air or massive rocket artillery strikes or artillery systems striking cities and settlements where civilians were and would be killed.

00:15:30.000 That really slowed everything down.

00:15:32.000 And they discovered that the Ukrainian forces, as they became more desperate because they couldn't operate in the open, they don't have any mobility.

00:15:41.000 They don't have any air defense.

00:15:42.000 They don't have real striking power in their artillery, limited firepower, no logistical infrastructure.

00:15:49.000 Naturally, they began to move into the big cities.

00:15:52.000 Now they've had to put the hammer down and say enough is enough.

00:15:55.000 So the cities are going to take some damage.

00:15:58.000 And I'm sure the Russians, like the Israelis, like us, will try not to murder civilians under any circumstances.

00:16:05.000 Try not to make them casualties.

00:16:07.000 But when you move into these dense areas, you have a choice.

00:16:10.000 You can sit around and try to starve them out.

00:16:12.000 And that takes a lot of time and causes enormous injury, or you go in and you end it.

00:16:18.000 They are in the go-in phase and ending it.

00:16:21.000 So I know you have to run, Colonel, but just really quick, what assurances do you have to try to believe that Putin won't try to invade other countries?

00:16:31.000 Moldova, Estonia.

00:16:33.000 Putin's army is only about 420,000.

00:16:36.000 It's smaller than the United States Army.

00:16:38.000 He couldn't possibly launch an offensive against the West.

00:16:42.000 It would be foolish and stupid, and he knows that.

00:16:44.000 There's no support in his population for that kind of action.

00:16:47.000 None whatsoever.

00:16:48.000 Finally, he is not interested in a nuclear exchange and never has been.

00:16:52.000 He's the last person to pull the trigger.

00:16:55.000 We don't want one either.

00:16:57.000 When you look at those factors, and then you also have to add in the economy, the Russian economy is not just a single commodity economy, not exclusively oil and gas, but very heavily dependent upon its export.

00:17:09.000 They produce about 10 million barrels of oil a day.

00:17:12.000 They export 5 million of them.

00:17:14.000 When you add to that timber, metals, rare earths, copper, aluminum, a number of other very, very important commodities, that's their livelihood along with agriculture.

00:17:26.000 They don't produce anything per se.

00:17:28.000 They can't afford to stay in a war with NATO for any length of time.

00:17:34.000 They just can't compete.

00:17:36.000 Our economy is infinitely larger, as is Europe's several times the size of Russia's.

00:17:42.000 For him, this is an eternal affair.

00:17:45.000 He looks at this as a dangerous thing that he has to stop.

00:17:49.000 Thank you for that commentary.

00:17:51.000 And it's definitely contrarian.

00:17:52.000 And it's hard to disagree with a lot of that.

00:17:54.000 So, Colonel, thank you so much for joining us.

00:17:56.000 Hope to see you soon.

00:17:57.000 Thank you.

00:17:58.000 Thank you, Charlie.

00:17:58.000 God bless.

00:17:59.000 Thank you.

00:18:02.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.

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00:19:05.000 Jack Pisobic is very smart.

00:19:07.000 He runs Human Events Daily in a partnership with TPUSA, Turning Point USA.

00:19:12.000 And Jack Pisobic is here right now to help us unpack many different things.

00:19:16.000 Jack, how are you doing?

00:19:17.000 Oh, they always a pleasure.

00:19:19.000 So Jack, what is the latest on the ground in Ukraine?

00:19:23.000 Well, the latest that's on the ground is quite perplexing because if you've been watching most of the mainstream media coverage, they've been telling you that Russia's invasion has stalled, that it's collapsed, that it's a complete failure.

00:19:36.000 They're going to have to turn back to Moscow.

00:19:37.000 This is the end of it.

00:19:39.000 But if you actually look at the ground and you actually look at the terrain that's been taken by Russia, if you look at the cities and the territory that's been taken, they're up to now almost 20% of the Ukrainian homeland has now been essentially annexed or at least taken over, controlled by Russian forces.

00:19:58.000 And keep in mind, this is a massive, massive, we broke this down on the podcast today, a massive area of land.

00:20:04.000 You're talking, so from east to west Ukraine is as far as it is from New York City all the way to Chicago.

00:20:10.000 So Chicago would be essentially that Polish-Ukrainian border.

00:20:14.000 So you're talking about a huge swath of land and Russia isn't doing what we are doing.

00:20:18.000 And that's why the Pentagon is getting this wrong.

00:20:20.000 And that's why so much of the U.S. establishment is getting this wrong.

00:20:23.000 They're not trying to do these blitzkrieg tactics with massive air coverage all the way into Kiev.

00:20:28.000 No, it's slow, steady, calculated, intricate movements as they're winding their forces together, encircling Ukrainian forces, encircling anyone they can find that they break through, and then methodically making their way towards Kiev and these other major ports.

00:20:45.000 They almost have, with the exception of Odessa, which is the westernmost port of Ukraine on the Black Sea, they almost have complete control of the entire Ukrainian coastline at this point.

00:20:55.000 And we're only on day seven.

00:20:57.000 So, but why do the slow, intricate movements?

00:21:00.000 Why not the shock and all campaign?

00:21:02.000 I mean, Putin is losing money in this war.

00:21:04.000 There's public opinion that is coming against him.

00:21:06.000 What's the thought process behind that?

00:21:09.000 Well, this is Russian strategy.

00:21:10.000 I mean, keep in mind, Charlie, the Russian military fought over this very same terrain in this very same land just 80 years ago, not against the Ukrainians, but against the Germans to liberate it during World War II.

00:21:22.000 And I guarantee you, Russian generals study Marshal Zhukov and the fights that took place in that war from the Battle of Kursk to everything that happened through Crimea all the way down into Stalingrad.

00:21:33.000 Remember, Stalingrad, now that is to the east of this whole area, but of course is a strategic choke point on the Volga River, a strategic choke point for all of Ukraine.

00:21:42.000 So they understand this terrain very well.

00:21:44.000 They understand this area very well.

00:21:46.000 They don't fight like we fight.

00:21:48.000 They don't think like we think.

00:21:49.000 They don't go for these massive shock and awe tactics.

00:21:52.000 It's slow.

00:21:53.000 It's methodical.

00:21:54.000 And essentially, you know, when you think of it as an anaconda, it's slowly turning up the pressure until the victim breaks.

00:22:01.000 That's what they're doing.

00:22:01.000 So there is a Western narrative that says that Putin is losing his mind.

00:22:05.000 He's become maniacal and he doesn't know what he's doing.

00:22:09.000 What's your take on that?

00:22:11.000 Look, you got to understand this thing has been in the works for years and in many cases, months for just the final preparations.

00:22:18.000 I mean, when I see these sanctions that we're putting out, you know, they're banning the cats.

00:22:22.000 They're saying we can't have Russian cats.

00:22:24.000 They're banning disabled athletes from the Paralympics.

00:22:28.000 You're only hurting the people, right?

00:22:31.000 You're declaring war on an entire people, right?

00:22:33.000 Americans didn't get banned from things when we invaded Iraq unilaterally, by the way.

00:22:38.000 And so what you're doing is you're making every single person in the Russian, Belarusian, or Ukrainian, depending on what side you're on, sphere, just completely hate you.

00:22:47.000 You're making them all your enemy and you're punishing people that have nothing to do with this.

00:22:51.000 Look, the oligarchs, they were told about this months ago.

00:22:54.000 They were told about this last year.

00:22:55.000 You really think that those rich oligarchs and their kids don't have private homes and planes and mansions that are totally set up in foreign countries under separate names and everything.

00:23:06.000 Cut me a break.

00:23:07.000 You are not going to hurt anyone important with these sanctions.

00:23:10.000 All you're going to do is hurt the people.

00:23:12.000 That's number one.

00:23:13.000 Number two, when it comes down to it, Russia has done something that the United States doesn't.

00:23:18.000 What is that?

00:23:18.000 They've cornered the market on numerous examples of commodities and resources.

00:23:24.000 Number one, of course, being oil and natural gas.

00:23:26.000 And so much of this is being done because they have cornered the market for Europe when it comes to oil and natural gas.

00:23:33.000 And of course, Germany and other countries could have turned more towards nuclear, but they didn't want to do that.

00:23:37.000 They wanted to listen to a 16-year-old Swedish girl named Brett Thunberg and outsourced their entire energy policy to her and to this green movement, who, oh, by the way, we find out that the anti-fracking movement here in the United States was funded none other than by Russian gas companies like Rosneft and like Gazprom.

00:23:54.000 It's a complete ridiculous assertion that we've just essentially been playing along with all of these narratives while instead we were the ones actually getting played by the end of this.

00:24:05.000 So there is clamoring in the West and in America that we must get involved.

00:24:10.000 That some people are saying we must bomb the Russian convoy.

00:24:14.000 We should try to take out Vladimir Putin.

00:24:17.000 You know, Jack, if you are in charge, what's the response?

00:24:20.000 What do we do?

00:24:20.000 Do we sit and watch?

00:24:21.000 Do we supply weapons?

00:24:22.000 Do we cyber-attack Russia like Hillary Clinton has suggested?

00:24:26.000 What do we do?

00:24:27.000 Well, look, there's a two-pronged approach, right?

00:24:29.000 Because you have to understand when you're facing a nuclear power like Russia, Russia has the ability.

00:24:34.000 With nuclear weapons, it's like when you're fighting a guy who has got a grenade with a pin out, right?

00:24:38.000 Only that grenade is pointed at all of civilization itself.

00:24:42.000 They have the power to blow up everything.

00:24:43.000 What did Vladimir Putin say about nuclear war?

00:24:45.000 He said that from the Russian perspective, what good is it to have a world without Russia in it?

00:24:50.000 That means he is willing, or at least he's threatening to be willing to blow up all of civilization if Russia feels threatened.

00:24:58.000 So right there, he's telling you he's setting the stakes as high as they can be.

00:25:00.000 And keep in mind, the CCP is going to do the same exact thing when they make their move on Taiwan, which will be very, very soon.

00:25:07.000 What could the United States be doing?

00:25:08.000 Number one, obviously, why hasn't President Biden gotten on the phone with the president of Poland and said, how can we help you with these refugees?

00:25:16.000 What can we do with that?

00:25:17.000 That's number one.

00:25:18.000 Help the people.

00:25:19.000 Because we can point out the corruption in Russia.

00:25:21.000 We can point out the corruption in Ukraine, the corruption in the United States, but we should always be on the side of the people.

00:25:26.000 That should be first and foremost.

00:25:27.000 Second, you have to understand Russian strategy in all of this.

00:25:31.000 They think they can take the hit on the sanctions because why?

00:25:34.000 Because they have the financial and economic backstop of the One Belt, One Road, and all of these economic deals with China.

00:25:40.000 So turn around, look at it from another perspective.

00:25:43.000 If their backstop in all of this, if China is in the CCP are underwriting this entire thing, why not go after Chinese oligarchs?

00:25:50.000 Why not go after CCP officials?

00:25:52.000 Why not sanction them?

00:25:53.000 Why not raise tariffs?

00:25:54.000 Why not use economic leverage?

00:25:56.000 There's so many ways to look at this if you look at how to fight them indirectly that may actually be more effective in breaking up that alliance.

00:26:04.000 And I really do think that in the past 80 years, our policies of pushing China and Russia together, right, since, you know, since the Sino-Soviet split, we've decided that since, or I should say, since the fall of the Cold War, since the fall of the USSR, we've pushed them together, right?

00:26:20.000 We should be separating them at every turn.

00:26:22.000 We should be breaking up that alliance.

00:26:23.000 We should be using India to balance them out.

00:26:26.000 We should not be demonizing.

00:26:27.000 I've just heard they're talking about sanctioning India now as well.

00:26:30.000 Great.

00:26:30.000 So we go to our last remaining ally on the continent of Asia and we're going to go demonize them.

00:26:36.000 How could our leaders be any stupider than what they're doing right now?

00:26:39.000 So I suppose the concern that some people have, Jack, is this idea of domino theory, I guess you could call it, or the lack of deterrence.

00:26:47.000 Let's say we do what you ask and Putin takes Ukraine, which looks to be inevitable.

00:26:52.000 But I think a Ukrainian resistance could go on for years, a in the woods, a shadow resistance of, you know, just disagreeable Ukrainians that just don't like Russians, especially in the Western part.

00:27:03.000 But what's to say that Putin won't take Moldova next?

00:27:06.000 Or he might not go for Estonia or Latvia or Lithuania or Finland?

00:27:14.000 What gives you peace of mind that that won't be the next course of action?

00:27:18.000 Well, that's precisely what I'm talking about.

00:27:20.000 Look, countries choose war when they see the price of hostility as being lower than the price of non-aggression.

00:27:27.000 So what you need to do is you need to raise that cost.

00:27:30.000 And we've been trying some ways with these sanctions, but they essentially have been ineffective, as we've seen.

00:27:36.000 You've got to find ways to go around their backside and say, look, we know you want to build these pipelines across Siberia and across Mongolia from the Russian Far East into China towards Beijing.

00:27:47.000 We know that that's the plan here.

00:27:48.000 We know that you want to plug in and essentially be the fuel network for the entire one belt, one road system.

00:27:54.000 You break that up, and suddenly they lose their ability to do that.

00:27:58.000 But we aren't even talking about it.

00:28:00.000 You didn't even hear Joe Biden talk about that at the State of the Union.

00:28:03.000 He didn't talk about China.

00:28:04.000 He didn't.

00:28:05.000 You could have had an actual leader of the United States, leader of the free world, and say, Look, we know that China and Russia are doing this together, and we are going to break this up and we are going to punish both of them before this stops.

00:28:17.000 And that's what you need to do.

00:28:18.000 You need to actually raise the costs.

00:28:20.000 They don't care about their currency being completely devalued.

00:28:23.000 The oligarchs, the leaders of this entire situation, the elites in Russia, they know that they've got the resources.

00:28:28.000 They'll be fine.

00:28:29.000 And the people aren't going to do anything because they will crack down.

00:28:32.000 Again, it's Russia.

00:28:34.000 This is Putin's regime we're talking about here.

00:28:35.000 He doesn't care about how many people he has to throw in jail.

00:28:38.000 What we should do is turn around and focus on China and use the economic leverage against them to get it to the point where they won't even think about touching Latvia, Estonia, the Baltics, Moldova, or, God forbid, Poland.

00:28:50.000 So, a lot of what we've been talking about is what we should do, but let's be realistic.

00:28:53.000 What's actually going to happen here, Jack?

00:28:54.000 Play this out for us.

00:28:55.000 Okay.

00:28:56.000 We have what we have right now in front of us.

00:28:58.000 Emmanuel Macron, for goodness sakes, is the guy communicating on the West's behalf.

00:29:03.000 How does this play out?

00:29:05.000 Well, I think you're going to see a situation where, of course, you know, and we've certainly heard from Zelensky in Ukraine and from his backers that they are not going to negotiate a ceasefire.

00:29:15.000 They are not going to sit down and say and capitulate.

00:29:18.000 They are not going to surrender.

00:29:19.000 They want to fight to the last man.

00:29:20.000 And so, what does that mean?

00:29:21.000 That means that what you saw happen to that northern city of Kharkiv, that was a message, that was a warning to Kiev.

00:29:27.000 They say, if you continue down this path and if you keep putting your military assets in the cities, that we are going to come and we are going to come hard and we're not going to stop.

00:29:35.000 And I think that you're seeing a lot of these messages go out.

00:29:37.000 Now, we just saw some information that in this meeting that they had in Belarus in Beloverskaya Pusha, this ancient forest that's there, that they are talking about creating civilian corridors for refugees to be able to get out.

00:29:50.000 And so, if you are out there, get out of Dodge, get out of Kiev, get out of the entire East.

00:29:55.000 Look, I think that's what is going to end up happening.

00:29:57.000 It's very clear what Putin's plan is, what Russia's plan is here.

00:30:00.000 They are trying to split Ukraine right down the middle using that Dnper River, essentially to break it off into east and west.

00:30:06.000 He wants that buffer state.

00:30:08.000 He also understands, by the way, that he doesn't have the ability to occupy or hold Western Ukraine.

00:30:13.000 That's why you notice that a lot of the forces have not been going.

00:30:16.000 There's been some airstripes, there's been a few things that have gone on in the West, but the majority of the fighting has been in the East.

00:30:22.000 That's what he wants.

00:30:23.000 He wants to create a neutral buffer zone and potentially even a buffer state, actually divide Ukraine in two the same way that Germany was divided into during the Cold War.

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00:31:48.000 So Colonel McGregor was on Jack.

00:31:50.000 You heard his commentary with us, and he says we should do nothing.

00:31:53.000 And he has assurances that Putin is not going to go further, that he's going to stop, and he doesn't have the support of his own people to do so.

00:32:02.000 What do you think of that?

00:32:04.000 Well, look, it's no surprise that this is an extremely unpopular war back home for Russia.

00:32:09.000 The Russian people are not involved in this.

00:32:11.000 They don't want this.

00:32:12.000 They're being demonized left and right.

00:32:14.000 The Paralympics are now banning Russian and Belarusian contestants, going after disabled athletes, as if that's going to somehow stop Putin.

00:32:24.000 They're getting hit when it comes to banking.

00:32:26.000 Obviously, they're the ones who are facing the full brunt of the currency hit, and they are the ones who are being really just ostracized by the entire world.

00:32:33.000 That being said, Putin does believe, and he just gave a press conference, a security press conference, where he said, I'm doubling down on this.

00:32:40.000 I'm firm in my belief that the Ukrainian people and the Russian people are one people, right?

00:32:47.000 And so that shows really that he's at least now operating.

00:32:51.000 You take him at his word.

00:32:52.000 So, you know, huge grain of salt there, that he's operating off a historical and cultural playbook, right?

00:32:57.000 You can't say that for the Latvians.

00:32:58.000 You can't say that for the Baltics.

00:33:00.000 You can't say that for the Poles.

00:33:01.000 You certainly can't say that for the Moldovans, right?

00:33:04.000 Those are very distinct areas, very distinct languages and cultures.

00:33:08.000 That being said, Ukraine and Russia do have a shared history, and he's banking on that as a way to sort of justify everything that's going on right now.

00:33:16.000 Now, does that mean he will not go further?

00:33:18.000 I firmly believe that if you do not want Putin to go further, of course, we don't want that, then you can't escalate this thing further.

00:33:26.000 You have to stop the escalation now, and you have to hold them where they are, contain this situation.

00:33:31.000 Because if you escalate, like they were talking about sending MiGs from Poland and Slovakia and some of these other EU countries, you know, sending jets in, that obviously would be a military act and a military escalation from NATO towards Russia.

00:33:44.000 And he doesn't want to go to war with Russia.

00:33:46.000 But at the same token, NATO doesn't want to go to war with Russia either, because that would lead potentially to a civilization-destroying event.

00:33:54.000 And I want to be very clear about this with everybody because I've seen talk now on Twitter, the Twitterati, the Blue Checks are saying, well, you know, maybe it would be a limited engagement between nuclear combatants, the skirmish, right?

00:34:05.000 No, do not play that out.

00:34:06.000 Look, at the end of the day, if you're looking at this, you're the president of the United States, you have to say, is it worth New York City?

00:34:13.000 Is it worth losing one of our major cities?

00:34:15.000 Is it worth San Francisco, Los Angeles, Seattle, these West Coast cities that are closer to Russia, closer to China?

00:34:21.000 At the end of the day, we have to protect American cities.

00:34:24.000 We have to protect people here and do what is in their best interest.

00:34:27.000 Yeah, and I mean, we're not being serious.

00:34:29.000 We're not a serious country.

00:34:30.000 If we were serious, we would open up our LNG assets and we would provide Europe with their oil and natural gas needs.

00:34:36.000 And that would starve the beast of Russia quicker than anything else.

00:34:38.000 But we're not serious because we're captured by the environment.

00:34:41.000 And that was the plan.

00:34:42.000 You tease something.

00:34:43.000 You are an expert on China.

00:34:44.000 You served in that area in our wonderful military.

00:34:47.000 China, Taiwan, you think it's going to happen?

00:34:49.000 What makes you believe that?

00:34:52.000 Well, I think it does now because, of course, China is looking at it from their calculus, their strategic calculus.

00:34:57.000 And prior to this, you know, I had been one of those guys and I've been out there a long time saying that their current strategy is an osmosis strategy, bring them together.

00:35:04.000 But remember, under Hong Kong, right?

00:35:07.000 So they were trying to use Hong Kong as a test case for how they would reincorporate Taiwan into this sort of, you know, they call it the one China policy.

00:35:14.000 And so they were saying, look, it'll be this one country, two systems.

00:35:17.000 You can keep your system.

00:35:18.000 You can be the same way you are.

00:35:20.000 Well, in 2019, we saw the crackdown and we saw the freedom protesters and they were completely obliterated by the CCP and their forces.

00:35:26.000 They were cracked down on.

00:35:27.000 And since then, freedom and democracy have been completely stamped out in Hong Kong, in that entire province, that peninsula and that island.

00:35:34.000 Going forward, then it completely destroys their sales pitch for Taiwan because you are going to give all the money and all of the influence now to the separatists in Taiwan.

00:35:45.000 They are going to want to declare independence.

00:35:46.000 Now, it's a completely separate situation from Ukraine because, again, Taiwan is they currently claim to be part of China, right?

00:35:53.000 They just claim that they're the rightful government of the Republic of China and get into all the history there.

00:35:57.000 But if the CCP is looking at this from the perspective of nuclear power, if they put nuclear weapons on the table in a nuclear strike the same way that Russia has put them on the table, and keep in mind that even if we strike them first, right, I see people saying these ridiculous comments, they have nuclear-tipped submarines.

00:36:15.000 They can submarine launch.

00:36:16.000 So even if you take out Beijing and Shanghai, guess what?

00:36:19.000 They can still strike us back.

00:36:20.000 That's called second strike capability.

00:36:22.000 We have the same, we have to go back and relearn all this nuclear war stuff from the Cold War because it seems like people have completely forgotten how this all works.

00:36:28.000 They're going to do the exact same thing with Taiwan.

00:36:30.000 Now, Taiwan will be a harder target for them, but mark my words, they are going to go in and they are going to go in militarily.

00:36:36.000 What will America do?

00:36:38.000 What should we do?

00:36:39.000 That's the question.

00:36:40.000 Well, Jack, you know China better than anybody else.

00:36:42.000 You served in that area for quite some time.

00:36:44.000 We'll have to admit you back on.

00:36:45.000 Jack Basoba, Cuman Events Daily.

00:36:46.000 Go subscribe to it.

00:36:47.000 Does a great job with us at Turning Point USA.

00:36:49.000 Jack, thanks so much for joining us today.

00:36:51.000 Appreciate it, Charlie.

00:36:52.000 Always an honor.

00:36:53.000 Thank you.

00:36:55.000 Thanks so much for listening.

00:36:56.000 Email me directly, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:36:58.000 If you want to support our show, go to charliekirk.com/slash support and get involved with turning pointusa at tpusa.com.

00:37:04.000 Thanks so much for listening.

00:37:05.000 God bless.

00:37:09.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk. com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - March 03, 2022

A Wise, Contrarian Take on War in Ukraine with Col. Douglas Macgregor

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