The Charlie Kirk Show - America's War on Cops with Heather Mac Donald

00:00:00.000 Today, my conversation with Heather McDonald about BLM Incorporated police rates is America racist.

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody.

00:00:06.000 She is so smart.

00:00:07.000 American treasure.

00:00:08.000 You're going to enjoy this conversation with Heather McDonald.

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00:00:28.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:29.000 Here we go.

00:00:31.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:00:32.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

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00:01:52.000 Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:01:55.000 With us today, is Heather McDonald.

00:01:57.000 She is a national treasure, one of my favorite guests, and she is a phenomenal author.

00:02:03.000 I have memorized as much as I can of her phenomenal book, War on Cops, and her newest book, Diversity Delusion, is also terrific.

00:02:12.000 We're going to talk about that.

00:02:13.000 And Heather, you and I were just joking before we came on air. 0.65

00:02:16.000 I said, Oh, there's a shooting involved a police officer, BLM's in the streets.

00:02:20.000 Go get Heather on the podcast so we can get some facts back into our dialogue. 0.58

00:02:24.000 First of all, Heather, welcome back to the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:02:28.000 Well, thanks, Charlie.

00:02:29.000 And you've got the mouthpiece and amplifier for this.

00:02:31.000 So let's get those facts out there because this narrative that's been phony from day one is becoming more and more dangerous.

00:02:39.000 And I don't know if the country will survive it.

00:02:42.000 I share that concern.

00:02:44.000 And so our audience has nearly tripled actually since the last time you came on.

00:02:48.000 So it's going to be a little bit helpful to go through some of the stuff you and I have talked before, which is just first and foremost, the guiding thesis of your book, War on Cops, which is, I'll use an example, right?

00:03:00.000 So the New York Times I have right here, I read it so other people don't have to.

00:03:04.000 And it says this is their headline: Minnesota police kill another man as tensions build.

00:03:11.000 Is there some sort of another black man, right?

00:03:14.000 Yeah.

00:03:15.000 I mean, that's that's what they're saying.

00:03:17.000 Is there any truth to this that this is a widespread problem in our country?

00:03:21.000 No, absolutely not.

00:03:22.000 There is not a systemic problem of police racism.

00:03:25.000 In fact, a much larger share of white and Hispanic homicide victims are killed by a cop than black homicide victims.

00:03:33.000 Fully 10% of all whites and Hispanics who die of homicide are killed by a cop, compared to 3% of black homicide victims who are killed by a cop. 0.56

00:03:45.000 The fact of the matter is, Charlie, is that policing today is driven by crime. 0.58

00:03:51.000 The police go where drive-by shootings are happening, where armed robberies are happening, where in this current last six months, where the carjackings that have killed their owners are happening. 0.85

00:04:02.000 And that is overwhelmingly in black neighborhoods.

00:04:06.000 When you account for rates of violent crime, any population-based disparities in police shootings disappear completely. 0.63

00:04:18.000 And it turns out, again, that whites are shot at a higher rate than blacks when you look at violent crime rates. 0.80

00:04:25.000 But nobody in this country is allowed to speak about black crime.

00:04:32.000 And because there is an overarching narrative that we're systemically racist, and your scholarship has been so helpful at actually talking about how the disparities, as you just mentioned, is that police officers are more likely to shoot Hispanic or white people than Black people.

00:04:49.000 And so let's just unpack part of this.

00:04:52.000 How rare is it, Heather?

00:04:53.000 How rare is it that an unarmed black man is shot and killed by a police officer?

00:04:58.000 Because if you asked an average American, they'd say hundreds, thousands a year.

00:05:05.000 Well, first of all, we'll use unarmed very generously.

00:05:09.000 According to the Washington Post database of fatal police shootings, last year there were 15 allegedly unarmed black males killed by the cops.

00:05:20.000 15.

00:05:21.000 That's out of what's going to probably prove to be 9,000 at least black homicide victims last year.

00:05:28.000 Last year saw the largest percentage increase in homicide in this nation's history.

00:05:32.000 This year will be far worse.

00:05:34.000 I can guarantee you that.

00:05:35.000 But those 15 represent less than 1% of all people who die of homicide in the United States.

00:05:45.000 As I say, though, to even call them unarmed is a stretch.

00:05:50.000 The Washington Post wants to get its unarmed black numbers up as high as possible.

00:05:55.000 It's constantly reclassifying armed as unarmed to include people that are fighting an officer with his own gun, escaping in a car with a loaded weapon on the seat next to him, struggling in a way to make it seem like that suspect is about to try and kill the officer.

00:06:18.000 So the number of actually peaceful, non-resisting, unarmed suspects who are killed by a cop every year would easily be less than the fingers on a single hand.

00:06:32.000 And so Heather, I have just a point of curiosity.

00:06:36.000 Why is the Washington Post the authority in this metric?

00:06:39.000 Is there any other institute that has tried to do this tabulation?

00:06:42.000 Because I hear that is the kind of common reference point.

00:06:45.000 I'm just curious.

00:06:47.000 I don't know.

00:06:48.000 The Guardian has got its own database.

00:06:51.000 And it's a very good point, Charlie.

00:06:53.000 There should be some countervailing weight.

00:06:58.000 I suspect that the numbers, the raw numbers, it's been interesting because since the Washington Post began collecting this database in 2015, the number of people killed by the cops every year, and again, this is not what your viewers are going to be expecting to hear.

00:07:15.000 About 1,000 people are killed nationwide by the cops in fatal police shootings every year, the vast majority armed and violent.

00:07:26.000 I suspect that those numbers are probably pretty accurate because the Post is scrubbing every news source it can get, but it is the classification issue where the Post is clearly putting its thumb on the scale.

00:07:40.000 Yeah, and so there's a conflation of terms, and it's done intentionally, of unarmed and somehow not necessarily peaceful.

00:07:49.000 There's a better word I'm thinking of, but as if they don't pose any sort of threat or danger.

00:07:54.000 Would you agree with that?

00:07:56.000 Right.

00:07:56.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:07:58.000 They want to get the sacred unarmed category out there in as many cases as possible, but that is not what an officer is experiencing.

00:08:08.000 You know, we recently, now we're going through a preliminary set of pre-summer riots after the tragic and truly outrageous shooting in Brooklyn Center.

00:08:23.000 But let's remember that car stops are the most dangerous thing that an officer does.

00:08:29.000 Just last week in Oak Park, Illinois, a police officer was shot and is in serious condition.

00:08:37.000 He may have since died.

00:08:39.000 I haven't followed up.

00:08:40.000 After a driver in a traffic stop shot him in Texas on the 7th of April, a 36-year-old felon with a 10-year prison record on him fatally shot a Texas trooper in the head after that trooper responded to a disabled vehicle call, which was the felon's own car.

00:09:03.000 So this is the type of violence against police officers that is going on on a regular basis. 0.92

00:09:13.000 It turns out that black males are the vast majority of threats to police officers.

00:09:22.000 Black males constitute 6% of the nation's population. 0.67

00:09:27.000 Over a decade, they've accounted for 42% of all fatal police killings, making a police officer anywhere between 18 and 30 times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be shot by a police officer.

00:09:47.000 So again, we haven't heard of that.

00:09:50.000 It's a powerful statistic.

00:09:52.000 And also with the Dante Wright incident, he fled arrest.

00:09:56.000 If he would have obeyed police officers and went in to the local authorities, he would likely still, he'd almost assuredly still be alive.

00:10:04.000 Heather, can you talk about the Ferguson effect?

00:10:07.000 You coined this term, and it's a phenomenal piece of scholarship you did on this.

00:10:12.000 And I think it ties in together.

00:10:13.000 I think there's an extra part of the Ferguson effect, which we saw with Dante Wright, which is, you're not in charge of me, police officers.

00:10:19.000 I can flee.

00:10:20.000 You might not find me.

00:10:21.000 I'll get out on bail.

00:10:22.000 I think that actually contributed to the fact that this went into a chaotic situation. 0.92

00:10:26.000 And this woman police officer, who her intent was not to murder or even racially profile, I just don't think she was ready for prime time. 0.67

00:10:33.000 She was not ready for an intense police situation.

00:10:37.000 That's something that's a mistake, not something that's going to be, they're categorizing as something different.

00:10:42.000 But talk about the Ferguson effect.

00:10:43.000 It's a really powerful piece of data.

00:10:46.000 Well, first of all, let me just put in a pitch here against diversity in police forces as an independent value.

00:10:54.000 It is utterly irrelevant what the sex is of police officers or what their race is.

00:11:00.000 The only thing that should matter is their physical strength, their capacity to understand the law, to keep their cool under situations of stress.

00:11:09.000 Officers need endless reinforcement on stress training, on tactical training. 1.00

00:11:16.000 This woman probably should not have been on the force. 1.00

00:11:19.000 And we do know that female officers have a higher rate of using their guns because they don't have the physical strength to subdue officers with something short of lethal force. 1.00

00:11:32.000 So diversity is a disaster no matter where it is practiced. 0.98

00:11:38.000 And yes, what we see with the Dante case is not just Ferguson effect, but the resisting arrest is going to go up. 0.95

00:11:46.000 The more that the police are completely delegitimized by the national media, by President Biden, by Vice President Kamala Harris, the less authority they have.

00:12:00.000 And we're going to go into an increasingly vicious cycle.

00:12:04.000 More resisting, more officers feeling compelled to use force, a small percentage of those resisting arrest incidents resulting in officer use of lethal force, more riots, more police officers backing off.

00:12:20.000 The Ferguson effect describes the dual phenomena of officers backing off from essential discretionary proactive policing under the phony narrative of police racism, resulting in criminals becoming emboldened.

00:12:35.000 I first noticed this in 2015 and 2016 following the Michael Brown false narrative, the riots of 2015, 2016, cops backed off.

00:12:47.000 We saw in city after city, arrests plummeted, stops plummeted.

00:12:51.000 2015 and 2016 saw at that time the largest two-year increase in homicides in the nation's history.

00:12:59.000 What we went through in 2020, you can either call it Ferguson Effect 2.0 or the Minneapolis effect, made the original Ferguson effect look like child's play.

00:13:11.000 We had four dozen black children being killed in these insane, grotesque drive-by shootings.

00:13:20.000 The children killed in their beds, in their front yards, in their backyards, at barbecues, at birthday parties, driving in the seat with their gangbanger father.

00:13:31.000 Not a single peep from the Black Lives Matter movement about any of those lost lives. 0.64

00:13:38.000 We've had, as I said before, the largest percentage increase in homicides in this nation's history, and the crime increase is continuing. 1.00

00:13:48.000 The victims are overwhelmingly black. 0.61

00:13:50.000 Not a word from President Biden about them, but it is going to start bleeding into suburban white communities. 0.54

00:13:58.000 We're seeing this with the carjackings now.

00:14:01.000 You know, in Baltimore, on April 3rd, a man was run over with his own car in Baltimore, died.

00:14:10.000 He was dragged in a carjacking effort by these juveniles that are out there to just without any sense of consequences.

00:14:18.000 And you're absolutely right, Charlie.

00:14:20.000 One contributing effect to the resistance is not just the hatred for cops, it's also the sense that they can get away with literal murder because the criminal justice system on a daily basis is being unwound because it inevitably has a disparate impact on blacks. 0.84

00:14:41.000 That is true. 0.79

00:14:42.000 It has a disparate impact on blacks.

00:14:44.000 Blacks are incarcerated.

00:14:46.000 They're about 33% of the nation's prison population, despite making up 12% of the nation's population.

00:14:55.000 So that's a disparity. 0.97

00:14:57.000 What's a larger disparity is the rate at which Blacks commit violent crime. 1.00

00:15:03.000 They're in prison because they are committing the lion's share of violent crime in this country. 0.93

00:15:11.000 But instead of addressing that, talking about that, we're blaming the criminal justice system.

00:15:16.000 And after this latest riot, you're going to see every prosecutor in the country and police departments saying, we throw up our hands.

00:15:26.000 We're not doing traffic stops anymore.

00:15:29.000 Whether they'll even do warrant enforcement, I don't know.

00:15:32.000 But we are heading into a very, very bad situation.

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00:16:49.000 Heather, I totally agree with you.

00:16:51.000 And a couple of thoughts on that.

00:16:53.000 Correct me if I'm wrong.

00:16:54.000 Blacks are actually under-incarcerated per their rate of violent crime as a percentage of that.

00:17:01.000 I mean, there's not a direct court, it's actually there's an under-incarcer. 0.97

00:17:05.000 Is that correct?

00:17:06.000 There's studies that have been done that show that if you look at rates of sentencing to prison after commission of a felony, blacks are under-incarcerated.

00:17:20.000 You know, whether that's true nationwide, I don't know, but surely at this point, we've lost any hope that the criminal justice system is going to be truly colorblind.

00:17:32.000 Just as this jury in the George Floyd trial, the chance that it's going to put its own safety at risk and the safety of the country at risk by following the evidence is very small.

00:17:44.000 And I'm sure juries and judges in other situations may have the pressure of this phony meme of mass incarceration bearing down on their judgments.

00:17:57.000 You know, mass, yes, we have a greater prison population than other industrialized countries. 0.71

00:18:01.000 That too is true.

00:18:03.000 But what you'll never hear from the mass incarceration crowd is that America's rate of gun violence is like 50 times higher than that of Western European countries or Japan or Sweden or Switzerland, not because of gun ownership, but because of gun, because of family breakdown and the utter breakdown of bourgeois norms in these insane inner city gang culture.

00:18:31.000 I totally see that the same way.

00:18:33.000 I think we're headed into the bloody 20s, not the roaring 20s.

00:18:37.000 Can you talk about the unprecedented rise in violent crime and where this is headed?

00:18:43.000 I'm trying to tell people this, and they're really, it doesn't register yet.

00:18:48.000 I look at the same statistics you do.

00:18:50.000 I say, we're about to enter a whole new chapter in America where we're going to have more people committing violent crime, less people being held accountable for it, and less police officers that actually want to enforce and protect their communities.

00:19:03.000 How does this end? 0.79

00:19:05.000 Well, it will end when white children get killed at the rate of black children.

00:19:12.000 You know, the media likes to think of itself as so anti-racist.

00:19:17.000 The fact of the matter is, it doesn't give a damn about black lives unless they've been killed by a cop or by another white person, which is the rarest of instances.

00:19:26.000 The fact of the matter is, if you want to look at, you know, and we hear LeBron James talking about, oh, they kill us every time we go out.

00:19:35.000 I just saw a tweet from Stevie Wonder, you know, saying black people are under threat every time they go outside of their house.

00:19:41.000 Joe Biden said that during the campaign, that black parents are right to worry about their children every time they step out of their house, that echoing a claim that President Obama made constantly. 0.93

00:19:52.000 Here's the reality, Charlie, about interracial violence.

00:19:57.000 If you look at the entire universe of black on white and white on black violence, things like armed robberies, everything excluding homicide, because this is based on victim self-reports. 0.72

00:20:09.000 So if you're dead, you're not going to report to the Bureau of Justice Statistics. 0.82

00:20:13.000 But everything short of homicide, rape, robbery, assault, aggravated assault shootings, blacks commit 88% of all interracial violence between blacks and whites and whites and black on blacks. 0.74

00:20:28.000 So it's not whites who are a threat to blacks. 0.80

00:20:33.000 If we're going to racialize this, let's be honest, you know, the rate of if you're going to be shot in a robbery, the chances are your assailant is going to be black.

00:20:48.000 And where this is heading right now, the media doesn't care because the overwhelming number of homicide victims or shooting victims are black because they're happening in these gang turf wars between utter Cretans, utter morons. 0.66

00:21:06.000 They go and they drive up to a corner and they just start spraying bullets.

00:21:10.000 I mean, this is something that most Americans have no clue.

00:21:15.000 They have no inkling about because the media refuses to cover it. 0.99

00:21:20.000 But this will start spilling out into white neighborhoods. 0.96

00:21:24.000 You're absolutely right to mention police recruiting. 0.86

00:21:27.000 This was true last year after the summer riots.

00:21:31.000 Department after department says we cannot find officers.

00:21:35.000 The retirements, the early disability pay, people calling in sick, departments forget defund the police movement.

00:21:44.000 This is happening voluntarily on the part of departments.

00:21:47.000 They are way, way short-staffed.

00:21:50.000 And it is going to be very, very hard to recruit anybody into a profession where you're a racist from the day you step on the job.

00:22:00.000 And, you know, again, like just this last week, I just have to, it's so stunning to me the deliberate silence of the media about black crime.

00:22:14.000 They're a bunch of hypocrites.

00:22:15.000 So since Friday in Chicago, you had a 17-year-old killed in the back in a triple shooting.

00:22:23.000 Since Friday, in Baltimore last week, four people were killed, three were wounded, including a 14-year-old girl in less than 24 hours.

00:22:32.000 On April 6th in Chicago, a one-year-old boy was shot in a probably a gang road rage incident in Chicago.

00:22:43.000 This is going on daily.

00:22:46.000 It's a different, it's like a different universe.

00:22:49.000 But the carjackings we've been seeing, you know, in Chicago now, you have the police declaring certain times where you can go to a gas station to fuel up your car and they will be there to protect you because otherwise the carjackings are out of control.

00:23:07.000 That's true in Washington, D.C., it's true in Philadelphia.

00:23:11.000 And we might also address this other phony narrative about anti-Asian violence, that this is the cause, you know, the result of white supremacy.

00:23:20.000 There again, who's beating up these 90-year-old Asians walking on the street?

00:23:28.000 Black men.

00:23:29.000 And the media continues to portray this as a function of white supremacy.

00:23:34.000 I don't like the hyperracialization of our country, but if they're going to do that, then fine.

00:23:39.000 Be truthful and factual. 0.95

00:23:41.000 I completely agree with that.

00:23:43.000 And what I want to get to what I think is actually driving a lot of the indifference towards this, which is really a power grab.

00:23:52.000 And it's really actually super, it's super sick when it really comes down to it of the people in charge.

00:23:57.000 And there's so many different ways we can unpack what you've said.

00:24:02.000 And it's important.

00:24:04.000 But another piece of information I want, I have it written down here.

00:24:07.000 Last week, a black man, former NFL player, shot six people and then shot himself.

00:24:12.000 That's a mass shooting.

00:24:14.000 Very few people even knew that happened.

00:24:16.000 Black guy shoots six people, then shoots himself.

00:24:19.000 I guarantee you, if that guy had a MAGA hat at home, it would have been on the front page of the New York Times here.

00:24:23.000 Number one story in the country.

00:24:25.000 And so we're seeing this ever-growing trend.

00:24:28.000 And police officers are going to say, I don't have to deal with this.

00:24:30.000 I saw a video from Minneapolis recently where police officers are just standing there and watching these thugs destroy their police cars because they know that if they go try to arrest one of them, it might turn into a situation where they're going to lose their job, lose their pension, lose their family, and they're going to be out in the witness stands.

00:24:46.000 They're like, hey, let them burn down our car.

00:24:49.000 At least I don't have to deal with it.

00:24:50.000 I can go home tonight and I can wear my gear.

00:24:52.000 They won't know my identity.

00:24:53.000 I could stay anonymous.

00:24:55.000 And that's not policing.

00:24:57.000 That's being some sort of indifferent spectator to crime.

00:25:00.000 So I want to go to what I think is above all of this, which is actually your latest book, Diversity Delusion.

00:25:05.000 And I think one of the main reasons why white liberals are pushing this forward is I think they have some deep-seated guilt about their own identity, their own life, their own wealth.

00:25:15.000 And Shelby Steele calls it white guilt.

00:25:17.000 And I agree with that. 0.91

00:25:18.000 I think it's even deeper than that, though.

00:25:20.000 I don't think that deep down they're actually comfortable with this idea of earned success at all.

00:25:25.000 I think that they feel either consciously or subconsciously a need to try to repatriate or redistribute the wealth of a country to people that either they are convinced or disadvantaged, but that they want to be in charge at the end of it.

00:25:40.000 So, Heather, help us unpack this.

00:25:42.000 You mentioned this briefly.

00:25:43.000 Is diversity our strength?

00:25:44.000 Because that is just thrown at us every single day.

00:25:47.000 Is diversity our strength or is it a delusion?

00:25:50.000 Diversity, in fact, as it's used today, is simply a euphemism for racial preferences.

00:25:55.000 Whenever anybody is talking about diversity, what they mean is we need to set aside colorblind meritocratic standards in order to hire by racial quota.

00:26:08.000 So, in that sense, it is far from being a strength, it is an absolute recipe for weakness and for failure. 0.85

00:26:19.000 We are unraveling every meritocratic standard in this country, whether it's in science fields, law, putting people on the bench, things that really matter, engineering, physics, math, and law enforcement, because they have a disparate impact on blacks because of the academic skills gap. 0.99

00:26:43.000 So, generally, I don't think that there's diversity in its own sake is not a strength, it's not a weakness.

00:26:52.000 It all depends.

00:26:54.000 It depends on whether a diverse defined by the usual trivialities of gonads and melanin are only that's only interesting if people are willing to abide by a common code of culture, which is bourgeois norms of self-discipline, deferred gratification, respect for others. 0.76

00:27:21.000 If they're not, and if you're defining, you know, attention to detail, a belief in objectivity, belief in fairness as white.

00:27:34.000 And so by invoking diversity, you're trying to destroy these allegedly white norms, then diversity is absolutely not a strength. 0.53

00:27:42.000 And, you know, this is very taboo to say, but it does look like the sociological evidence says that homogeneity is actually a strength.

00:27:53.000 And, you know, this goes against a deep grain of our recent narrative.

00:27:58.000 But if you look at the social capital in Japan, that has literally zero crime, an enormous amount of social trust. 0.93

00:28:08.000 That was true in Scandinavian countries before they became woke and absorbed a whole bunch of third world refugees. 0.84

00:28:18.000 And this was the infamous finding of a sociologist Robert Putnam, who against his own inclinations, he's very progressive, studied so-called diverse communities in America and found that the more diverse they were in terms of the traditional lefty attributes and including national origin, the less people trusted their neighbors, were willing to help out, to volunteer.

00:28:46.000 This, again, nobody wants to hear this, but there's been no contrary findings that show that the more diverse a population, the more socially engaged people are.

00:29:04.000 So, you know, as I say, the prerequisite to diversity being a strength is that everybody's on the same page with regards to obedience to law and order, respect for authority, and hard work and self-discipline.

00:29:22.000 A few decades ago, private citizens used to be that, private citizens.

00:29:25.000 What's changed?

00:29:26.000 The internet.

00:29:27.000 Think about everything you've browsed, searched for, watched, or tweeted.

00:29:30.000 Now imagine all of that data being crawled through, collected, and aggregated by third parties into a permanent public record.

00:29:36.000 Your record, having your life exposed for others to see was once something only celebrities worried about.

00:29:42.000 But in an era where everyone is online, everyone is a public figure.

00:29:45.000 To keep my data private, when I go online, I always turn on ExpressVPN.

00:29:49.000 Did you know that there are hundreds of data brokers out there whose sole business is to buy and sell your data?

00:29:54.000 The worst part is they don't have to tell you who they're selling it to or get your consent.

00:29:58.000 One of the data points is your IP address.

00:30:00.000 Data harvesters use your IP address to uniquely identify you and your location.

00:30:05.000 But with ExpressVPN, my connection gets rerouted through an encrypted server and my IP address is masked.

00:30:10.000 Every time I turn on ExpressVPN, I'm given a random IP address shared by other ExpressVPN customers.

00:30:17.000 That makes it more difficult for third parties to identify me and harvest my data.

00:30:21.000 And the best part is how ExpressVPN, how easy it is to use, no matter what device you're on, phone or laptop, maybe smart TV.

00:30:28.000 So if you like me and you believe that your data is your business, go to expressvpn.com slash Charlie and get three extra months free, E-X-P-R-E-S-S-V-PN.com slash Charlie.

00:30:39.000 Go to expressvpn.com slash Charlie.

00:30:44.000 At the very least, if you're going to have this overemphasis on diversity, then you must have some form of unity and a through line of connectivity, which is a national language, a national ambition, culture, which worked in America generally in the 1980s, 90s, and early 2000s when violent crime went down.

00:31:07.000 I said generally, it worked better than it is today.

00:31:09.000 At least when I grew up in America in a generally racially diverse environment in the suburbs of Chicago, I did not walk around thinking I was a white person every day.

00:31:18.000 I went to school with Hispanics and blacks, and we got along well, and we were able to have a decent upbringing.

00:31:26.000 The school's a mess now.

00:31:27.000 The point is that now that school is a total disaster where there's privilege walks, kids apologizing for their whiteness, people taking these, critical race theory, the whole nonsense, and it's unraveling.

00:31:38.000 And so talk more about this diversity delusion where it's almost become this false god and this idol of the ruling class that this is the ultimate value that we must strive for, which is, and they don't even believe it.

00:31:50.000 They don't believe in ideological diversity.

00:31:51.000 They don't believe in spiritual diversity.

00:31:52.000 They just believe in melanin diversity.

00:31:55.000 How did this become such an emphasis of the ruling class? 0.88

00:31:59.000 Well, I agree with you, and I certainly agree with Shelby Steele, and he was the leader of us all in describing the codependency between guilty whites and blacks who make being black an accomplishment. 0.71

00:32:12.000 You know, that's why it's going to be very hard to dislodge the diversity ideology because at this point, merely being black is an accomplishment. 0.86

00:32:21.000 It gets you jobs.

00:32:23.000 You know, all the diversity trainers, their specialty is being black.

00:32:29.000 And you have now pressure in the STEM fields to hire blacks.

00:32:36.000 And because of the academic skills gap, which is vast, about 54% of black eighth graders do not even have basic math skills, basic being defined as partial mastery of eighth grade math expectations. 0.75

00:32:54.000 So 54% have not even partial mastery of basic math skills.

00:32:59.000 And yet, we are supposed to believe that the reason, and that gap never closes, you know, the SATs show the same math deficits, the GREs show the same math deficits. 0.51

00:33:13.000 Yet, we are supposed to believe that the reason that there is not 12% Black physicists at MIT or at Caltech is because those schools are discriminating against competitively qualified Black math PhDs. 0.66

00:33:31.000 It's a complete fiction. 0.73

00:33:34.000 So right now you have the guilty whites and you have a certain percentage of Blacks, not everybody. 0.60

00:33:40.000 I mean, I've just finished a piece on the race-based attack on classical music, and I have the privilege of talking to some black musicians and conductors who completely reject racial quotas and who are devoted to this magnificent, sublime tradition of Western classical music, regardless of race. 0.91

00:34:01.000 So there's plenty of people out there who reject it, but there's also a lot of people who are capitalizing on race being their main accomplishment. 0.61

00:34:11.000 And what goes on with the guilty whites? 0.71

00:34:16.000 Partly, I think they think that their kid will not be hurt by it, even though we now see, fortunately, it's delicious when one has to savor every moment of Schadenfreude when you have these. 0.90

00:34:29.000 I love when their kids don't go to Harvard under these policies they support.

00:34:32.000 I love it.

00:34:33.000 It's so great.

00:34:33.000 Or when, you know, the New York Times opinion editor has to step down for running an op-ed by Tom Cotton because it made the black and female employees at the New York Times feel unsafe.

00:34:45.000 It's just hilarious. 0.52

00:34:46.000 And of course, he apologizes and you wonder what goes through his head. 0.82

00:34:50.000 So partly I think the whites sort of think that they'll be okay. 0.94

00:34:54.000 They got their job. 0.98

00:34:55.000 But again, I don't want to, you know, I don't want to sound like a one note here, but I think what is also driving the diversity frenzy is that nobody wants to take a hard look at the dysfunction in the underclass culture.

00:35:14.000 And it's a lot easier to blame white racism for the fact that it's kept off stage, but one is hazily aware of it, that just too many black kids are not being given the culture, the family structure to succeed.

00:35:33.000 And we've seen now the Facebook pictures of Dante's price's gun slinging, gang sign throwing, throwing off.

00:35:48.000 I have seen, this is ubiquitous.

00:35:50.000 You know, Facebook is police officers' best friend.

00:35:54.000 They have whole units that comb social media for these gangbangers because they're all showing off their guns.

00:36:01.000 It's just, it's like a different world, but nobody wants to look at that. 0.96

00:36:07.000 And so we are talking about the phony problem of white supremacy in order to turn our eyes away from the breakdown of Black bourgeois culture. 0.99

00:36:18.000 And it is a breakdown because, again, this is what I've learned in this classical music piece for City Journal that's coming out. 0.99

00:36:24.000 America has a tragic history.

00:36:26.000 For the first half of the 20th century, you had Blacks who were just living up to America's highest ideal, striving to become bourgeois, getting an education, dressing beautifully, you know, at a time when America kept excluding them. 0.73

00:36:46.000 And then finally, centuries too late, America acknowledged its grotesque hypocrisy in violating its profound ideals about equality, opened up, passed civil rights laws to the point that now instead of white privilege, you have black privilege in every single mainstream institution. 0.70

00:37:06.000 There is not a single mainstream institution that is not preferring blacks over whites at every juncture of its hiring and promotion process. 0.86

00:37:15.000 At that moment, when whites finally realized their violations of equality, the black underclass oppositional culture sprung up. 0.84

00:37:27.000 And now you have mainstream institutions waiting with open arms and not enough people that are even remotely qualified to be hired and promoted. 0.69

00:37:39.000 And Thomas Soule has done some phenomenal work on this.

00:37:42.000 And he's one of the few.

00:37:44.000 And Thomas Soule, where his book, Discrimination and Disparities, it's the best way to approach a liberal or a leftist on this topic, which is, hold on, if there's a disparity, how can you solely blame discrimination, if at all?

00:37:59.000 What about the 90 other thousand prerequisites that go into a human development besides discrimination?

00:38:06.000 Now, that's an elevated discussion that most people are unwilling to have because discrimination is easy because you get to be on the side of the angels.

00:38:14.000 You get to be a good person.

00:38:15.000 Like, oh yeah, everyone discriminates except me.

00:38:17.000 Yeah.

00:38:17.000 Okay.

00:38:18.000 Harvard Westlake village attending, you know, Malibu soccer mom.

00:38:22.000 Like, yeah, you're a perfect person.

00:38:24.000 But the other things to talk about that they don't want to talk about is how many words does an average black child hear at the age of three every day in their home? 0.73

00:38:31.000 They hear less than 500 words because single mother, working, whatever, an average white child with two parents hears 3,000 words a day.

00:38:39.000 Well, Piaget to every child psychologist will say the amount of words a child hears from 18 months to three years will be one of the top prerequisites to determine whether or not they'll have a high IQ and have interest in math and science and learning and inquiry and reason.

00:38:53.000 That's a pretty big deal.

00:38:54.000 That's not white supremacy.

00:38:56.000 That's whether or not a father's in the home, whether the family unit is intact.

00:38:59.000 But it's a lot easier. 1.00

00:39:00.000 In fact, no one gets power if the black family gets rebuilt. 1.00

00:39:04.000 No one does. 1.00

00:39:05.000 If the black family gets rebuilt, actually the people in charge get less power.

00:39:10.000 Instead, if you blame discrimination and you could pretend you're on the side of the angels, you become a lot more important.

00:39:15.000 Can you explain one thing, Heather?

00:39:17.000 And I wouldn't even do a very good job of explaining this because we have some 13-year-olds and 14-year-olds listening.

00:39:22.000 Can you explain bourgeois values?

00:39:24.000 I think that would actually be really helpful because you've mentioned it a couple times here.

00:39:28.000 Yeah, it's a respect for order.

00:39:31.000 It's a belief that the human instincts need to be restrained by reason, by above all, not responding to impulses of the moment, not seeking immediate gratification, a future horizon.

00:39:51.000 One of the greatest analyses that has influenced me is by a late social sociologist, I don't know, or maybe political theorist who knows what little niche he fell into at Harvard, Edward Banfield, called The Unheavenly City, a book of essays that was written after the 1960s riots.

00:40:12.000 And it's got some very coy, cheeky titles like rioting for fun and pleasure.

00:40:20.000 So he saw a lot of the 60s riots as to use a current lefty term, performative, and not really related at all to a plea for social justice.

00:40:31.000 But what we're seeing today is just sheer opportunism.

00:40:34.000 You know, you drive up, as we saw last summer, and it's going on now with your U-Haul and you loot the store, and yet you're supposed to be held up as a civil rights hero.

00:40:46.000 B.S.

00:40:47.000 I mean, it's just ridiculous.

00:40:48.000 But he talked about not on a race basis, on a class basis, that one of the distinguishing features between an upper class culture and a lower class culture is the degree of future orientation.

00:41:02.000 And people in upper classes, whether it's a traditional aristocracy or just a meritocracy, teach their children and have the ability to put off immediate gratification for long-term ends.

00:41:17.000 And we see this most perfectly, and at the lower end, you have people responding impulsively, and that drives criminal behavior.

00:41:25.000 You know, they want something, they get it, they don't think through what are the consequences. 0.97

00:41:30.000 And the classic example today of that future orientation is Asian culture. 1.00

00:41:36.000 Asian Americans are whooping everybody's ass in the United States because the parents are demanding that the kids don't go out, hang out, you know, gangbang, but stay home, do their homework, learn two instruments, focus, 1.00

00:41:52.000 you know, maniacally on getting into the Ivy League, and that restrains people's irrational appetites in order to achieve something later down the road. 0.72

00:42:08.000 Bourgeois values is a respect for other people.

00:42:11.000 It's not littering.

00:42:12.000 It's not making loud noise.

00:42:14.000 It's not, you know, keeping your neighbors up at night or driving down the road with your car stereo blasting out.

00:42:22.000 A respect for parental authority. 0.50

00:42:24.000 Things that became mocked with the rise of the countercultural generation as just fuddy-duddy.

00:42:34.000 But in fact, a respect for law and order is a prerequisite to everything else.

00:42:40.000 And, you know, to repeat a theme we've been driving home, Charlie, we are putting all of that at risk.

00:42:47.000 I just can't even imagine what is going to happen.

00:42:51.000 You say people don't really get why should I care about rising crime?

00:42:58.000 If the chauvin jury does not convict on most, if not all, counts, it will come to your neighborhood.

00:43:06.000 It will come.

00:43:07.000 That's correct.

00:43:07.000 Yes, it'll be beyond anything we've ever seen.

00:43:10.000 Yes, sir.

00:43:10.000 It'll make Rodney King look like a walk in the park.

00:43:14.000 Right.

00:43:14.000 So, in closing, Heather, I'm going to ask you an unusual question, but I try to do this with all my guests.

00:43:21.000 What gives you hope right now?

00:43:23.000 I actually have, for the first time, thought that perhaps the attack on whites as endemically racist, the escalation of this phony narrative will reach so absurd a point that maybe people will say, I'm not taking it any longer.

00:43:45.000 And, you know, this is very difficult terrain because, as you say, it's asymmetrical.

00:43:52.000 The left gets to talk about white this and white that all the time.

00:43:56.000 It is an absolute reflex at this point.

00:43:59.000 All the New York Times or the Washington Post or the LA Times needs to do to discredit a person or an institution 100% is to say it's white.

00:44:09.000 And yet, you know, that we're supposed to believe that hate speech is talking about border control and that only whites are capable of being racist.

00:44:23.000 If you are then say, okay, well, how should whites respond?

00:44:29.000 Then you become accused of playing, you know, white racial politics.

00:44:34.000 But at some point, one has to ask, why not?

00:44:39.000 If whites are being characterized on the basis of group guilt on the basis of their skin color, and let me just say they're going to come back and say white privilege, you know, how many of you were followed around in a convenience store by the clerk for shoplifting. 0.90

00:44:57.000 Yes, that is humiliating if you're innocent, but the reason that goes on, the reason those types of assumptions go on, is driven by the underlying reality of Black crime.

00:45:09.000 The reality is Black privilege today in mainstream institutions, not white privilege. 0.89

00:45:15.000 At some point, you know, whites have to say we're not taking this any longer.

00:45:20.000 But I will say this, and that may be coming sooner than I ever would have thought.

00:45:26.000 I will say this on the other side of the ledger, sort of on the more pessimistic side.

00:45:31.000 This is what needs to happen. 0.86

00:45:34.000 The driving force in our world today is the fact that there are continuing socioeconomic racial disparities between blacks and whites. 0.87

00:45:43.000 The left can point to, you know, household wealth or rates of incarceration or rates of admission to MIT, and they're not equal.

00:45:53.000 They are not proportional.

00:45:54.000 As long as the only allowable explanation for that lack of racial proportionality is bias, what I call the myth of bias, the left wins.

00:46:04.000 The left wins.

00:46:05.000 They will continue tearing down every institution.

00:46:09.000 What has to happen is people have to swallow hard, get some courage, and talk about the academic skills gap, the parenting gap, the behavior gap that is driving those disparities, and reject completely the white supremacy argument.

00:46:27.000 The musical gap, what a young black kid is listening to at age six or a young white kid is a huge difference.

00:46:32.000 Thomas Sowell has written extensively about it. 0.94

00:46:34.000 Diversity delusion, war on cops. 0.99

00:46:36.000 Heather, thank you for joining.

00:46:38.000 You're just, you're special.

00:46:40.000 And I want everyone to buy your books and to listen to more of what you have to say.

00:46:44.000 You have so much wisdom and courage, which is so rare.

00:46:46.000 And so we have to have you back on again soon.

00:46:48.000 Thank you.

00:46:49.000 I congratulate you, Charlie.

00:46:50.000 Thank you, Charlie.

00:46:53.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:46:55.000 Email us your questions, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:46:58.000 And please consider supporting us at charliekirk.com/slash support.

00:47:01.000 God bless you.

00:47:02.000 Speak to you soon.

00:47:06.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.

00:47:10.000 com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - April 14, 2021

America's War on Cops with Heather Mac Donald

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