00:00:00.000Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk show, there is a war on white people, a provocative conversation with Jeremy Carl, The Unprotected Class, How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart by Jeremy Carl.
00:00:58.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
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00:01:36.000Jeremy Carl, who's become a really good friend and he's terrific, new book out called The Unprotected Class: How Anti-White Racism is Tearing America Apart.
00:01:47.000Before we go into this conversation, everybody, you have to purchase this book.
00:01:50.000They're going to do their best to censor it, to smear it, to slander it.
00:02:52.000And I kind of document what that looks like in a variety of different areas, looking at everything from crime to the schools to immigration policy to kind of throughout.
00:03:03.000And then I kind of tie it up all together in a bow and talk about what's motivating it and what we can do about it.
00:03:09.000So to the moderate person looking at this, they say, anti-white racism, what is it?
00:03:15.000So give us kind of four or five glaring examples, the institutional anti-white racism in our country.
00:03:21.000So, I mean, I think one example I talk about in the book, now a little bit addressed in theory by the Supreme Court, was around affirmative action, the Bakke case, and just this was the original case that was a California student or something.
00:03:35.000Yes, a student who applied to UC Davis Medical School and is vastly, vastly more qualified than some other minority students, particularly African Americans, who were accepted.
00:03:49.000Eventually, it's a really complicated case, and you have six different opinions out of the nine justices.
00:03:54.000But basically, the long and short of it is affirmative action is upheld in that case.
00:03:59.000And what happens is the kind of student who takes his place at UC, Davis, all these great stories are written about him.
00:04:08.000And Ted Kennedy, the former senator, kind of does a big thing about how wonderful he is and says this guy is the epitome of why affirmative action is great.
00:04:16.000And as I kind of relayed in the book, it turns out later, you know, he ends up killing some patients and kind of being losing his medical license for incompetence.
00:04:26.000And then he ends up dead by the side of the road eventually.
00:04:29.000And there's some intimation, although I want to stress that we don't have any proof on this, that maybe there was a former patient involved or something like that.
00:04:38.000On immigration policy, any sort of attempts by people to say, hey, you know, we might want to slow down the pace of demographic change, let alone if we mention something like the great replacement, then you're automatically Adolf Hitler too.
00:04:53.000This is kind of seen as an illegitimate way to look at America.
00:05:00.000That kind of bleeds into the fact that all these statues are being torn down, and we're not just talking about Confederate statues, we're talking about the statue of Thomas Jefferson being removed from the New York City City Council chambers after 187 years or things like that.
00:05:15.000So you could just kind of go on and on.
00:05:18.000I mean, again, I talk about different things.
00:05:20.000In healthcare, you've got prioritization going on by race of treatments.
00:05:25.000You've got white doctors being told you can't research in this area without a minority researcher working with you.
00:05:33.000You've got discrimination against medical schools.
00:06:59.000I mean, you see that liberal whites uniquely among all kinds of demographics that you could look at, they have what's called an outgroup preference.
00:07:09.000So liberal African Americans like African Americans a little bit more than other ethnicities.
00:07:28.000And this is actually kind of, again, what I want to explore in a kind of follow-up book.
00:07:33.000But there is a part that I do think we can say more clearly, which is there's another element of this beyond self-hatred that's about status.
00:07:41.000Because if you've got $100 million, okay, it's very easy for me to say, yeah, hey, I don't care about like we should give a leg up to these other people or white people are privileged because guess what?
00:07:53.000It doesn't really cost you anything or at least anything that you can't afford.
00:07:57.000So in any way, these sort of conspicuous displays in this case are actually a way of saying, I'm really powerful, I'm really influential.
00:08:05.000So that part of it, I think we can understand a little bit more.
00:08:08.000So the self-loathing is always fascinating to me.
00:08:12.000And so what do older Americans in their 60s or 70s not understand about the racial caste system?
00:08:19.000That people in their, so if I talk to a 18-year-old, they say, of course, there's a war on white people.
00:08:30.000And I think part of it has been, and again, I talk about this a lot in the book, the huge demographic transition that we've had since those senior citizens are kids.
00:08:42.000And so, I mean, they're thinking about their own experience growing up where they grew up in an overwhelmingly white society.
00:08:48.000And depending on how old they are, I mean, pretty clearly a time when white people would have been benefiting more, or at least certainly not discriminated against.
00:09:05.000Meanwhile, if you are the age of my kids, you know, my oldest kid is 17, or some of the folks that you're dealing with, this is a reality of their everyday life.
00:09:14.000Every day they're told they're evil because of the color of their skin.
00:09:20.000And that's kind of the encouraging thing.
00:09:21.000I mean, it's discouraging for the country, but it's encouraging in terms of when I talk about the book, because when I talk to younger people, they say, oh, yeah, I just, and I just got done doing my first few public talks about this book.
00:09:56.000And again, I write about this, that there's also this, and this is actually, here is the most challenging thing for this book, is that everybody, and I think particularly white people who were responsible with all the good and bad of largely building this country over time, it's just a demographic fact of who was here.
00:10:15.000It's painful to admit a change in status or to complain about it is sort of seen as, oh, you know, I'm whining to the refs.
00:12:37.000And I think what's interesting, for anybody who doubts that this is really going on, I think the most effective group that has come out of the Trump White House is, at least to my mind, America First Legal, which is Stephen Miller's group.
00:12:53.000And I think it's just done outstanding work.
00:12:54.000And really, the primary element of what they've been doing since they got out is just taking stuff that is blatantly illegal, discriminatory stuff against whites and hiring, promotions, and they're just suing on it.
00:13:08.000And nobody had really been doing this.
00:13:09.000I mean, they've done it idiosyncratically, but not at scale.
00:13:12.000And what they're finding is they're winning a lot of this, and they're going to win even more of it because the law is actually clear.
00:13:19.000But people were kind of so sort of intimidated, they weren't even challenging the law.
00:13:24.000They just sort of accepted that's how things were.
00:13:27.000Do you think, so have we seen evidence that the courts will rule in our favor with anti-white racism?
00:13:33.000And I mean, some of this is just, it's kind of open and shut.
00:13:36.000And in fact, what you're seeing in many cases is with, especially with things like scholarships and things like that, they're just folding.
00:13:43.000They're not even going to court because we sue them and they're like, oh, yeah, actually, you know, we're going to lose this case.
00:13:49.000And they just stop the illegal behavior.
00:13:57.000And I'll tell you, one of the good examples of this that I talk about in the book is you may remember a few years back, there was kind of an infamous incident about Starbucks around where some young African Americans had been asked to leave a store, and this turned into a big firestorm of controversy.
00:14:17.000And it was, you know, it was really, in my view, appropriate.
00:14:20.000But of course, the Starbucks people wailed.
00:14:22.000Well, it turns out they were making a commotion or noise or something.
00:14:26.000They wailed and they gnashed their teeth and they shut down for racial training.
00:14:29.000And ultimately, they fired the white regional manager.
00:14:33.000But you know who they didn't fire was the African-American manager of that Starbucks store, who in my view, again, had acted totally appropriately.
00:14:41.000So they're eventually the regional manager who's white, who had nothing to do with this directly in any way.
00:14:48.000She sues for discrimination and she wins a $25 million verdict.
00:14:51.000So I think that if we push on this, if we make it systemic and we need to make it 100 times what we're doing right now, I think we can win.
00:15:00.000But according to either civil rights law and or federal hiring practices, if you fire a white person, it's not a protected class.
00:15:28.000Because especially, as I point out, the civil rights division of the Justice Department, under a Republican administration, it's liberal, and under a Democratic administration, it's far left, right?
00:15:39.000So I think the Biden administration, the Justice Department would absolutely not, they'd find a way to deny the claim no matter what the law said.
00:15:46.000And that's one of the reasons why the left has concentrated so much on controlling the administrative state, so much on controlling the judiciary.
00:15:54.000Yeah, like the EEOC, which is the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.
00:16:00.000If you're black or if you're Hispanic and you file one of these claims, they get accelerated.
00:16:15.000No, and it's, and I think one of the things that's interesting is we're kind of moving into this post-white America, as I call it.
00:16:21.000I mean, just demographically, that's the reality.
00:16:23.000And I think it's just, it's ultimately not sustainable, the current system we're on.
00:16:27.000I mean, when whites are not even the majority anymore, like, why would we allow ourselves to be treated in a lesser way than some other group, right?
00:16:36.000Like, these sorts of things could vaguely work when whites were a supermajority, but now they're just totally unviable, in my view.
00:16:41.000Yeah, and then I want to talk about whites versus whiteness and where this idea of whiteness comes from.
00:16:47.000You know, people remember the Smithsonian Museum, the African American Heritage Museum, History Museum, during Floyd Apalooza that came out and they said that speaking properly, using grammar, math, these are all attributes of whiteness, right?
00:18:45.000Well, one of them is kind of almost a cultural category, whiteness.
00:18:49.000And then white is more of an ethnic category, which is, again, a catch-all for a lot of people that would have been seen as similar in some contexts, but very different in others in American history.
00:18:59.000But as you pointed out, whiteness is kind of used as an overall category to often just talk about things that a lot of us would just consider pro-social.
00:19:11.000And of course, shouldn't be limited to any one race at all.
00:19:19.000I'll read off the list, but keep going.
00:19:21.000Yeah, to stigmatize those things is seen as stigmatizing whiteness.
00:19:26.000And it's not a coincidence, as I write about in the book, that when we begin to get our first kind of looks at white privilege, that term, it actually doesn't occur at a time, you know, 100 years ago when there would have been white privilege in the United States.
00:19:41.000It happens in the 1980s with an academic at Wesleyan who uses that term.
00:19:45.000This is right around the time that anything resembling white privilege is dying.
00:19:49.000It's just sort of like if you're living under Kim Jong-un, you're not going to talk about Kim Jong-un's power.
00:19:54.000It's only if you're safely away, then you can criticize Kim Jong-un.
00:19:59.000The taxpayer-funded National Museum of African American History said that family structure, having a family is white culture.
00:20:07.000Nuclear family, father, mother, two or three children is the ideal social unit.
00:21:11.000I actually kind of want to deracialize the conversation.
00:21:13.000Reading that list, I can't help but wonder: do they use like hyper-tribal tactics as a means to destroy Western civilization?
00:21:21.000Meaning they do hate white people, but they've come to hate white people because they actually hate what white people might represent, or at least some would, which is the remnant of the West.
00:21:32.000And in many ways, this erasure of history that I write about is because they need to create something that they feel like they own as opposed to something that, in my view, they should participate in, which is great, and we want them to participate in, but that they would perceive as white zoning.
00:21:49.000And just to kind of pick up, I mean, I could have done a number of things from that list you just read out, but just to sort of show the absurdity of some of these claims, you hear a lot about kind of the breakdown of African-American family structure as a legacy of slavery.
00:22:02.000Well, if you go back 80 years, 85% of African-American parents were married.
00:22:09.000Much, much, much closer to the time of parents.
00:22:11.000Much higher percentage of white parents than are white parents being married today.
00:22:15.000So what we've actually had is a full-scale cultural collapse that is really a product of leftism in very many instantiations that is being blamed on whiteness.
00:22:59.000Well, again, I mean, there's, of course, a million different examples you can give throughout histories and cultures of groups that are discriminated against that have strong cultural ties or whatever else and are still doing very well.
00:23:23.000That's like one trivial way of doing it.
00:23:25.000The other way that often these arguments work, and again, I write about this, is it often erases Asian Americans because Asian Americans are the inconvenient minority.
00:23:34.000Because pretty much any one of those metrics, Charlie, that you just read out, Asian Americans would be higher than white people.
00:23:58.000And it's sort of like, and even among groups, right?
00:24:00.000Like I talk about the Igbo or Igbo, which is a subset of a lot of Nigerian Americans.
00:24:07.000If you were to look at them, higher educational attainment than the average white American, higher income, et cetera, et cetera, down all the sort of list of good things that you'd want.
00:24:17.000So if we've got sort of systemic racism against African Americans, why did it just skip over them, right?
00:24:23.000I mean, it's just, you know, these things don't stand up to kind of empirical scrutiny.
00:25:08.000So let's get back into the anti-white racism.
00:25:14.000How do we then best fight back and withstand the criticism where they're going to say this is just a white lash or this is just you being a white nationalist?
00:25:33.000I mean, there should be a backlash against the fact that they're being racist because that's good.
00:25:38.000I mean, you shouldn't be able to be racist without accountability.
00:25:43.000So I don't have any problem with that.
00:25:45.000But I think there's lots of different tactics, whether it's lawfare, whether it's and kind of a creation, I think, over time of kind of getting, we need to really re-look at how we've enforced civil rights laws.
00:25:59.000And again, I'm not saying that because I think we need to re-litigate the wisdom of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
00:26:05.000It was put in at a particular time to solve I've criticized it.
00:26:12.000Yeah, I mean, yeah, and Chris Caldwell is a colleague of mine, and I think it's, you know, it's fine to do that.
00:26:18.000But I think just as a political strategy, I think if people want to say, hey, there were absolutely real problems that it was addressing, whether you think it did it in the perfect way or not.
00:26:29.000But we're as far from that time right now as they were from the Wright brothers.
00:26:34.000So there's a lot of things that have changed in American society.
00:26:36.000We're not worried about people not being served at lunch counters anymore.
00:26:39.000Yeah, and the Civil Rights Act, though, let's be clear, created a beast, and that beast has now turned into an anti-white weapon.
00:26:48.000And so we just need to fundamentally re-look at a lot of our civil rights legal regime.
00:26:53.000And without that, even though I don't think it's sort of the magic bullet, but I think without that, there's limits to the amount of progress we're going to make.
00:27:00.000Let's talk about discourse and dialogue.
00:27:04.000This topic would have been even more forbidden four or five years ago, but it's now becoming in more and more mainstream circles.
00:27:11.000Is that because the problem is becoming worse, or but our side is more courageous to confront it?
00:27:56.000You see it in a way that some of the older people are.
00:27:58.000Well, and I want to also say, again, the liberal media is not going to cover all this, but if you have unapologetic, ferocious anti-white racism.
00:28:08.000then young whites are going to find some very radical political positions.
00:28:14.000I mean, I didn't write this book to de-radicalize people, okay?
00:28:17.000But I actually think that if people read it, they will understand.
00:28:20.000If you're a white person and you're like, man, I'm just, I'm at the end of my rope and I don't know what I'm going to do.
00:28:26.000But that's where a lot of the young white men that we speak to on campus, I sometimes have to kind of bring them back into like free society.
00:28:35.000Like, let's calm down because they say everyone's against us.
00:28:38.000We need to create our own identity politic group.
00:28:40.000And I actually don't think that's a good idea.
00:28:42.000I don't think more tribalism is the answer to tribalism.
00:29:03.000And I think that's, you know, you're seeing this ferment and that's the left kind of loses its mind because they refuse to deal with the consequences of what they've created.
00:29:11.000I do think that there's an element in the same way that Martin Luther King Jr., who we talked about before of the show, but he wasn't, you know, plus or minus, he wasn't kind of, he wasn't a black nationalist in the way that early Malcolm X was.
00:29:25.000He was trying to organize black people, however, without apology.
00:29:29.000I think in the same way, like, we've had a lot of airy appeals to equal rights, and it sort of hasn't gotten us anywhere.
00:29:36.000We need to organize people, not in a way to kind of create racial identity politics, but to show that, like, these are the people being discriminated against, so they have to organize against it.
00:30:12.000And you'll see even people who would be considered very, very far to the right, and they will disclaim, or they will feel like they've been slandered if that is used against them.
00:30:23.000And you seem to get over it because ultimately, if you're being effective in this world right now, you're going to be called a racist by the left, but they don't even know what a woman is.
00:30:41.000Unless you have your own stuff and unless you're very unique and you're willing to punch through it and punch through it and punch through it and punch through it.
00:30:48.000And then you come to the other side and you have intellectual purity and freedom.
00:30:51.000But that's a small group of people right now because they might have employers and agreements and advertisers.
00:32:03.000That is r-u-f-f-greens.com/slash kirk.
00:32:06.000Go to roughgreens.com slash kirk to grab yours today, roughgreens.com slash kirk.
00:32:13.000I want to quote a friend of yours and a teacher of mine, Michael Anton.
00:32:19.000It's not happening, and it's good that it is.
00:32:22.000Probably one of the most powerful pieces I've seen on the American mind in the last couple of years.
00:32:27.000Michael Anton writes this piece, that is how the left responds.
00:32:30.000So, Jeremy, the country's becoming less white.
00:32:33.000They say it's not happening, but it's good that it is.
00:32:36.000What are the consequences of the great replacement?
00:32:39.000Well, I think they're profound, and we're just beginning to see them.
00:32:44.000I mean, again, it's sort of we've had a history in the U.S. starting from well before we were even a country of a kind of European-focused civilization, and we're now kind of moving into something that is going to be something different.
00:33:02.000I think when whites also have a lot of resources that other people might like, that I argue that in the book, that that's one of the real motivators behind a lot of this politics: you need what's called, the sociologist C. Wright Mills called a legitimating ideology.
00:33:17.000So, you can't just like take stuff from people.
00:33:20.000You need to have a reason why it's good that you're taking it.
00:33:25.000And that's what this is: say, well, if white people are systemically racist and horrible and they've been oppressive for the entire X hundred years, then of course, you know, to make things equal, we have to take things from them.
00:33:43.000Well, good, because that's what I say in the next to last chapter of the book.
00:33:47.000But that's what they, at the core of, I hate to say Marxist because it sounds cliche, but it's true, of Marxist philosophy is the destruction of private property, the destruction of the family, and the destruction of any sort of belief in the transcendent or the divine.
00:34:10.000So, I mean, you've got this, it's a sort of thing where a lot of things that the left does, and we laugh about it on the right.
00:34:17.000And then, you know, I think of Gavin Newsom doing his illegal gay marriage ceremony, and everybody was like, this is insane, and he's going to pay this huge political price.
00:34:27.000And then 11 years later, I'm going to...
00:34:39.000And then everybody's like, this is insane.
00:34:41.000And even in San Francisco, he may pay a political price or certainly would end his career in California.
00:34:45.00011 years later, Supreme Court makes it the law of the land everywhere.
00:34:49.000So in a similar way, Tanahisi Coates, who's a kind of prominent African-American intellectual, he writes about a decade ago a piece on how white people need to give reparations to African Americans, primarily for slavery.
00:35:02.000And everybody kind of freaks out and says this is crazy.
00:35:06.000And now what you have is even, you know, a decade later, you've got San Francisco and California and Boston and these other places.
00:35:14.000By the way, invariably places where there was no slavery for any meaningful period of time, kind of beginning to really go down this reparations rabbit hole.
00:35:25.000And I think if you don't think that this is going to be coming down the pike in a much bigger way, you're kidding me.
00:35:30.000So the typical response I hear then from the audience is, but what does someone like Gavin Newsom think?
00:35:37.000Won't he also be swept up in the reparations?
00:36:55.000And we have to talk about this not just because of white people.
00:36:58.000Every race has an interest in avoiding the kind of cliff that we are running toward and making sure that we don't fall off it as a society.
00:37:05.000So, Jeremy, where does the anti-white thing come from as far as is it easy just to say it's Marxism, critical theory?
00:37:12.000Can you just give us some of the philosophical roots, thinkers, authors that were the genesis of this?
00:37:20.000Yeah, well, I think certainly critical theory is part of it.
00:37:26.000I do sometimes get a little bit wary of these cultural Marxism explanations because I think it kind of folds in a very 20th century or even 19th century arguments about property and sort of attempts to sort of shoehorn it in this place on a 21st century debate where it doesn't totally fit.
00:37:45.000But I think certainly those thinkers are a key component.
00:37:50.000Folks like Ibram Kendi, Ibram X. Kendi really kind of Henry Rogers or, and I'm just blocking out her name, the woman who kind of wrote about white fragility.
00:38:52.000I'm not saying, oh, you know, please don't.
00:38:54.000No, we, you know, the fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves, as they say in Julius Caesar, we have to stop allowing ourselves to be treated that way.
00:39:07.000And if you're listening to this show, I just hope you say, hey, you know, I'm not going to put up with this.
00:39:30.000This idea that every white person is rich and successful and has a debt-free life and a perfect home with a picket fence, that's not supported in reality or data at all.
00:39:41.000And in fact, I talk in the book about so-called deaths of despair, and there's a Nobel Prize-winning economist named Angus Deaton, who's at Princeton, and his wife Ann Case, also an economist, who have written about this, how you've seen particularly an explosion among middle-aged white Americans.
00:39:58.000who are kind of middle and working class, who are sort of seeing the collapse of a lot of these systems around them, who are feeling that as whites, they're kind of at the bottom of the status totem pole.
00:40:07.000And we've seen a huge growth in suicides, in drug overdoses, particularly localized to these groups.
00:40:14.000So that's where you've seen the growth.
00:40:16.000And I think they're sort of giving up.
00:40:18.000And I want to encourage these folks not to give up and that we can stand up for ourselves and things can get better.
00:40:24.000The unprotected class, how anti-white racism is tearing America apart.
00:40:28.000Jeremy, anything we didn't discuss you want our audience to be aware of that, I mean, we covered a lot of ground.
00:40:34.000Yeah, I mean, I think the centrality of immigration, we did touch on it, obviously, but I just, I think it is without kind of getting control of the border, which is obviously a huge issue right now, we can't begin to solve any of this.
00:40:47.000Because if we do create, there's a fancy scholarly term called ethnogenesis, which means essentially you're creating a new ethnic group that may have a variety of different racial origins, but sort of sees itself as one people.
00:41:00.000The necessary thing to do that is that you've got to get control of the border.
00:41:06.000You've got to give us some breathing room and some time so that we can begin to reconstitute our culture and be a people.
00:41:23.000In fact, I think that anti-white racism goes after every single one of those things.
00:41:29.000The important component that I hope people realize from this conversation, and Jeremy's really putting himself out there, is we must be unafraid to speak about these topics openly.
00:41:38.000And if they call you racist, just laugh it off and keep on fighting.
00:41:55.000And if I can kind of make a plea for folks to purchase this book, if you know anything about the economics of books, I'm not going to get rich, sadly, from you.
00:42:06.000Unless this becomes white fragility, then I'll get rich.
00:42:08.000But what it does do is if this book sells enough copies, it tells publishers, oh, you know, there's an audience that wants to read about this stuff.
00:42:17.000And it will encourage other people to write about it.
00:42:19.000It will encourage publishers to publish about it.
00:42:22.000So purchasing this book, reading about it, telling your friends it's a force multiplier, just like Charlie, you speaking out so courageously on this issue is.
00:42:29.000If you have white grandkids, you have to educate yourself on this.
00:42:34.000I mean, we are entering a sinister, I don't want to say, I don't want to even say Jim Crow, but the same sort of idea pathogens that created the evil policies that we learned about in the 50s or 60s, they're re-emerging.
00:42:47.000In fact, many of them are already here.