00:00:00.000Hey, everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk Show.
00:00:01.000Matt Gates joins us, and we ask the question: is it better to have a slim majority than a big majority?
00:00:05.000And listening back to this episode, I have to say, I did not do a good enough job articulating that we should want everybody to show up in a massive red wave.
00:00:15.000And Matt says some stuff I totally agree with, and other things I disagree with.
00:00:19.000We received some voluminous amount of emails of people that find this argument to be silly and to disagree with it.
00:00:30.000But I can say from doing research and speaking to people, there is a lot of merit to Matt's argument here about actually how Congress itself runs.
00:00:56.000We have to try to create the biggest red wave imaginable so that we can be able to be in political power and then we can worry about the rest later.
00:01:05.000Email me your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:02:06.000He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
00:02:12.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:03:07.000But on the program, here is Matt Gates, who actually was the first one to convince me of this.
00:03:12.000We got in a rather, I don't want to say an argument, but let's say a spirited discussion backstage of our turning point event in Tampa.
00:03:20.000And he did convince me of this particular thing.
00:03:22.000Didn't convince me of all the things we were talking about, but we'll keep some of that private.
00:03:26.000And this was one of them, which is that if we actually want a Congress that will do something, then you want the margins to benefit the America First Movement.
00:03:38.000So I'm going to let Matt articulate the argument, Congressman Matt Gates, the great Congressman Matt Gates, and then I'm going to play devil's advocate.
00:03:46.000Oh, thanks so much for having me, Charlie.
00:03:48.000And I always enjoy our spirited discussions, especially in the rare case that I'm able to change your mind on something.
00:03:54.000I know you changed my mind about a lot of stuff.
00:03:56.000So the Dobbs decision, definitely going to result in more life being protected and definitely going to result in a smaller Republican majority in the House of Representatives.
00:04:07.000And while every politician would love to win every election in every circumstance, and I'm no exception to that, the impact of the Dobbs decision in both of those cases may end up being good for the country.
00:04:25.000And slim majorities are able to work more cohesively for a few reasons.
00:04:31.000One, fewer mouths to feed, fewer people that believe that they ought to be the brand carrier for a particular committee or the party or any other number of the endeavors that a caucus engages in in the United States Congress.
00:04:45.000Second, fewer of these people who consider themselves the majority makers.
00:04:51.000I can't tell you after Donald Trump drug all these people to victory on a bold MAGA agenda in 2016, how many of them got here and then said, oh, well, I'm one of the majority makers.
00:05:02.000So I have to be given a pass on this vote or I have to be given an opportunity to take a walk on that vote and be with the Democrats.
00:05:10.000And then next thing you know, you turn around and you're losing large chunks of your caucus and that cascades in a very negative way.
00:05:17.000If we were to have like a six or seven seat majority, well, then everyone's a majority maker.
00:05:23.000And then kind of in the same way, no one is.
00:05:26.000And it becomes harder to swim away from the school, right?
00:05:30.000If you get a larger group, it is more subject to cleavages and factions within the caucus.
00:05:37.000If you have a very slim majority, it forces you to work as a team.
00:05:42.000It forces you to understand that you can't do things that are going to drive away a substantial portion of the people that you need to be able to get a bill passed.
00:05:50.000And look no further than Joe Manchin, right?
00:05:53.000Like for all of the like independence and bluster that we got from him early on, I mean, Joe Manchin came home to the Democrats because as like the one guy swimming away from the school, like he was beat so hard, there's not enough relief factor on the planet Earth to have kind of like resolved his political pains.
00:06:13.000And so he came back to the Democrats and gave them their disastrous reconciliation bill.
00:06:18.000So there's a few of the arguments why I think we could actually get more done.
00:06:21.000Also, we've got like proof of concept before.
00:06:23.000You talk a lot about immigration, and I completely agree with you that if we do not seal the border and deport people who are not here legally, then we don't have a country anymore.
00:06:31.000We've lost the shape and character of our country.
00:06:34.000Well, I mean, when we had these big majorities, we couldn't pass immigration bills because you'd have 20, 30 people out there talking about a pathway to citizenship.
00:06:41.000You got a six seat majority, 12 seat majority, then we'll be able to say, look, that's not where a majority of everyone is.
00:06:47.000And everybody's got to come home to roost and we got to solve this problem.
00:06:50.000So the best argument I heard in opposition to that is don't we want to level a metaphorical extinction event of the Democrat Party?
00:07:01.000If we have a 50 or 60 or 70 seat majority, you're going to have some MAGA in America firsters along the way.
00:07:08.000And it's going to put Democrats into oblivion.
00:07:10.000They won't be able to get political power anytime soon.
00:07:26.000Because the Democrats controlled the White House and the administrative state and the deep state, and they were able to use that to marshal a big win for Barack Obama in 2012.
00:07:36.000So I think that that's had a proof of concept.
00:07:39.000It did not result in the extinction event.
00:07:41.000I think the extinction event for Republicans was probably more likely like getting power and then not doing enough with it to vindicate our voters, right?
00:07:51.000I mean, we lost in 2018 because we didn't keep the promises that we made for multiple elections before Donald Trump was even on the political stage regarding the repeal of Obamacare.
00:08:03.000So, Matt, it's just, I want to build this out further because it's somewhat paradoxical because some of our audience says, I want to win big.
00:08:09.000I want to put as many points on the board as possible.
00:08:14.000And so, can you also differentiate, though, that let's say it's a 20 or 30 seat majority.
00:08:20.000If it were to be that you have some, you know, like a Joe Kent, for example, that wins or an Ana Paulina, phenomenal, great.
00:08:27.000But the moving average or history would tell us, once you start to creep up to 15, 20, 30 seat majorities, that means you're winning with a lot of Adam Kinzinger types, isn't it?
00:08:38.000I do believe that a small majority would be more ideologically MAGA because a greater percentage of that majority would come from districts that are demanding an adherence to the America First Agenda.
00:08:52.000And undeniably, we have great MAGA candidates in toss-up districts in New Hampshire.
00:08:56.000Caroline Levitt, certainly very proud of her for that great win.
00:09:00.000And that's one of those seats that's on the bubble.
00:09:04.000But if you have a majority that is, you know, 40 seats, that 50 seats, like some were even potentially predicting before the Dobbs decision, well, then I think that you're far more likely to have the win, the sugar high of the win on election day, but then the consistent disappointment of policy losses.
00:09:38.000He said, I'm tracking with you, but let's say we have an eight-seat majority.
00:09:41.000What happens if six or seven become like Mitt Romney?
00:09:44.000Do we really have an eight-seat majority, right?
00:09:46.000Don't you want a little bit more flex in the joints?
00:09:50.000I mean, again, who could, you know, who could know predicting numbers, but what would be the counter argument to that?
00:09:57.000Well, I mean, Joe Manchin is the Democrats Mitt Romney, and he eventually came home because the pressure of being, you know, one or two out there harming the rest of the body becomes overwhelming after a certain point in time.
00:10:11.000So yeah, maybe not a one or two or a three seat majority.
00:10:14.000Maybe that would be a little too tight for that reason.
00:10:17.000But I do believe that you have a greater influence on the sort of Mitt Romney faction, the smaller they are.
00:10:24.000If you have a larger majority and you had an Adam Kinzinger archetype wanting to lead them in the House Republican conference, if there's like two, three, four of them, well, it becomes a lot harder for them to get attention and critical mass than if there are 12, 15, 20 of them.
00:10:43.000They said a supermajority is the only way to go.
00:10:46.000Matt's old argument doesn't work as Trump and the MAGA movement didn't exist in 2010, your thoughts.
00:10:52.000But I think there's a different wrinkle to this argument you haven't touched on, Matt, which is who does leadership listen to?
00:10:59.000So if there is a 40 or 50 or 60 seat majority, by definition, you've diluted the pool of the voice of Freedom Caucus Gates, Marjorie Taylor Green, Anna Paulina types, and the voice would be fractionally less.
00:11:15.000And you just have to look at this mathematically that there's only so many Matt Gates' and Marjorie Taylor Greens.
00:11:24.000And when you increase the pool too much, right, we don't want to be in the minority, want to be in the majority, then leadership doesn't have to take your complaints seriously, doesn't have to take any of your demands seriously.
00:11:35.000We're talking about a very provocative thing, which is, is it better for the MAGA movement, is it better for the Republican movement to win a nice majority, a 15, 20 seat majority, or is it better for us to blow it out of the water?
00:11:49.000And the second question is, are we dampening our enthusiasm and lowering our base's likelihood to vote, donate, and show up that might impact the Senate?
00:11:59.000So I want Matt Gates' thoughts on that, but this is inside baseball stuff, everybody.
00:12:04.000And someone says, Charlie, you sound like Mitch McConnell.
00:12:34.000It's a new credit card built for conservatives.
00:12:36.000I'm moving all my credit card activity under COIN.
00:12:39.000And the Coin credit card is an unlimited cashback Visa credit card that is just like every other credit card you've ever owned with one huge exception.
00:12:46.000Every time you use the Coin card, they contribute to conservative charities that support your values.
00:13:55.000When the reality is we could get exactly what we need in a tighter, firmer, more effective fighting force.
00:14:02.000And what people have to focus on, rather than just the size of an illusory majority, like, what, if you add me at like 12 more, 17 more Adam Kinzingers, do you think I'm stronger just because the volume of the number of them?
00:14:16.000You have to look at the MAGA coefficient.
00:14:18.000And there's a possibility that a smaller majority could have a higher MAGA coefficient so that we actually win on policy.
00:14:26.000And to the people that say that we sound like Mitch McConnell, they need to listen to Mitch McConnell more because it's Mitch McConnell who publicly and I would say shamefully admits that the only thing that matters to him is electability.
00:15:06.000And then we should only embark on leadership selections when we see the size of that majority.
00:15:12.000Because frankly, how could you even vote for a leader without knowing the shape and contours and membership of the body?
00:15:19.000Because that's the body that that leader would have to serve.
00:15:21.000So it's premature to suggest that McCarthy would certainly be speaker or Scalise would certainly be leader or anyone else would be in any other position.
00:15:30.000There's a lot of ground left to go between now and then.
00:15:33.000Is it if there was a major majority, let's say 40 or 50 seats, hypothetically, which I do actually disagree.
00:16:09.000That would depend on the composition of that majority.
00:16:13.000Is it a majority of, you know, eight people with nine Adam Kinzingers and Liz Cheneys?
00:16:18.000Or, you know, do you get an Ana Paulina Luna, Caroline Levitt, you know, running energetic, enthusiastic, bridge-building campaigns, you know, winning even in a slim majority.
00:16:29.000So I think the membership would inform the options for leadership.
00:16:33.000But in a world in which we go from the minority to a 40 or 50 seat majority, there would be no option.
00:16:40.000What do you have to say to the argument, Matt, that some people are saying that the way you're talking is demoralizing us and people aren't going to show up because of it?
00:16:48.000And people are saying, I wish that many people listened to me.
00:16:50.000No, look, look, I still want to, I started this discussion with the caveat.
00:16:56.000If I had my drothers, we'd win all 435 of them.
00:17:00.000But the purpose of this exercise is to inform the audience about the opportunities that only unlock in a world in which you have a more cohesive, smaller majority.
00:17:11.000I'm going to work hard for every Republican candidate.
00:17:13.000I am super enthusiastic about our candidates.
00:17:16.000Unlike Mitch McConnell, I'm not trash talking our candidates while they're out there working to make their case to the voters in these dispositive final weeks.
00:17:24.000I'm encouraging them and supporting them in every possible way.
00:17:26.000But the reality is that this is a different political landscape.
00:17:31.000So really quick, someone says, Charlie, you guys are wrong.
00:17:34.000The people who have been winning have been MAGA.
00:17:53.000Well, I think the percentage is going up either way because Donald Trump had a remarkable impact on a lot of these primaries.
00:17:59.000The question is, does it go up by a little or does that coefficient go up by a lot?
00:18:04.000Well, people definitely want that 50 or 60 seat majority from everyone I've talked to, from you to Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Bobert, to Andy Biggs to Mark Meadows, to people that have really dealt.
00:18:14.000They say, if you want strong conservative, legitimate oversight and action, these big majorities make conservatives the afterthought because they're not necessary.
00:18:27.000Just something to think about, everybody.
00:18:29.000Someone asked, what's the purpose of this discussion?
00:18:32.000The purpose is to talk about governing as well.
00:19:08.000You rarely see this kind of focus and commitment.
00:19:10.000They recently shared with me that they are doubling down and want to literally double their total number of happy customers in the next year.
00:19:18.000If you're struggling with back pain, neck pain, shoulder, hip, or knee pain, even general muscle aches and pain, then I'm suggesting you order their three-week quick start, still discounted, only $19.95.
00:20:10.000But I can understand that the essence did convey, like, Charlie, why are you postulating potentially not winning by a lot?
00:20:17.000By the way, we're going to have Steve Bannon on the program either tomorrow because he's at our great reset event, and he wants the biggest majority possible.
00:20:24.000I want to hear what he has to say there.
00:20:26.000Email us your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:20:30.000Other people say, Charlie, this is actually probably the best way to articulate it, I have to say.
00:20:35.000Someone said here, yeah, this is the best way.
00:21:13.000So, Devin, I want to ask you about, again, I don't know where you stand on this.
00:21:17.000And it would be actually, it's just kind of something we've been thinking about, which is, is there a scenario where it's actually better to have a slimmer MAGA America first majority, or is it always better to have massive, huge House majorities?
00:21:30.000What's your take on this as someone who served in Congress and understands it?
00:21:35.000Always better to have the more, the better.
00:21:37.000And I think for the first time, we have the chance to have even more Republicans than we had back in 2010, which we got over, I think, 240 some.
00:21:50.000So, you know, look, a lot's going to depend on the next, what is it, 56 days.
00:21:54.000But I'm actually in Washington right now and was talking to a few of my colleagues, my former colleagues, I should say.
00:22:02.000And look, we've got great candidates all over the country.
00:22:05.000I mean, even in districts, I was in one district last night out in Maryland.
00:22:11.000And, you know, Maryland's a state we haven't been able to play in in a long time.
00:22:15.000And we've got good candidates out there.
00:22:17.000So, look, I think that there's a good shot here.
00:23:11.000It just keeps, you know, regurgitating itself.
00:23:14.000And, you know, including in the Mar-a-Lago raid, by the way, Charlie, that I believe that that raid is specific to Russia Gate and possibly Russia gate documents that Trump declassified.
00:23:47.000They claimed on the record in Congress that their source was going to die.
00:23:52.000People within DOJ and FBI told me and my counterparts that the source was in life was in jeopardy.
00:24:01.000And so, of course, we never knew who the source was until later we finally figured it out, which I think it was a couple of years later, that Danchenko was a guy who was, he was actually born in Russia.
00:25:11.000Even though we knew at the time the dossier was bogus, the FBI knew it was bogus, they decide to bring on Danchenko in March of 2017 as a confidential human informant for the FBI.
00:25:28.000Now, that is why and how they were able to keep this guy from us for so long, because he actually was then put on the FBI's payroll.
00:25:38.000And look, this is nothing short of DOJ and FBI obstructing our congressional investigation.
00:25:45.000Do you know what we would have known had we known in March 2017 who Danchenko was and the fact they, why would you bring a know-in liar, a known con man?
00:25:54.000You already know the dossier is nonsense.
00:25:56.000You know Clinton and the DNC paid for it, and you bring this guy on.
00:26:01.000So obviously Durham prosecuting Dan Chenko, but Congress is now, if the Republicans like we were just talking about, take over, they have to get to the bottom of this.
00:26:11.000And I'm still frustrated because we're still waiting, hopefully on Durham.
00:26:16.000He's got to bring, he's got to bring charges against the corrupt DOJ and FBI officials.
00:26:22.000And he's going to have to bring a conspiracy charge.
00:27:12.000And this is something that we've learned once again with the Mar-a-Law, going back to the Mar-a-Lago raid and how this is all and how this is all related.
00:27:20.000We thought at the time back in the day when we figured out the Lovebirds, you know, and how they were at the FBI, McCabe, Comey was fired.
00:27:29.000We went through the Mueller witch hunt.
00:27:41.000Well, what we find out now with the Mar-a-Lago raid, now we don't have a lot of information, but this FBI agent that was taken out of the building a few weeks ago, what it appears like is that the holdovers, you had the Obama-Biden administration.
00:27:58.000They weaponized the National Security Division of the Department of Justice and consequently the FBI.
00:28:09.000Many of those people that were then involved back in 15 and 16 are now at the very top of where?
00:28:17.000The Biden White House, the DOJ, and the National Security Division.
00:28:22.000And so they are using the National Security Division, counterintelligence specifically, and they're using all their rules and guidelines to circumvent congressional oversight.
00:28:33.000And that, I think, gets to the point that you're making, Charlie.
00:28:37.000Congress has to end, they have to end it because there is a, and I'll just simply put it this way: they have had a get Trump Gestapo operating within the DOJ since at least 2015 when Donald Trump came down the escalator.
00:28:54.000This is the administrative state run in the country, Devin.
00:28:56.000This is a much deeper, structural, form-based problem that goes to show how the Constitution has just merely become not even a suggestion, just an afterthought for these people.
00:29:10.000The administrative state thinks they're so powerful.
00:29:12.000They look at Congress as an annoyance.
00:29:13.000So, Devin, what is the battle plan here to not just talk about we got to fix this?
00:29:24.000Yeah, it's a constitutional crisis, actually.
00:29:28.000And the only thing I would just to clarify: when you say administrative state, don't forget it's an administrative state that's working on behalf of the Democratic Party.
00:29:45.000It's that Trump, even when he ran the executive branch, didn't run this part of the executive branch.
00:29:52.000And so you had, they carved themselves out into basically a fourth branch of government.
00:29:58.000Yeah, but yeah, essentially, there is a cell operating even in the Trump administration.
00:30:04.000Nobody was able to, you know, we exposed most of it, but we weren't, clearly weren't able to stop it.
00:30:10.000And the fact that that lived all through the Trump administration, I think, tells you how deep the tentacles of Obama and Clinton and all these people are.
00:30:21.000They basically had people within the inside that were giving information to the Democrats, taking actions on their behalf.
00:30:29.000And don't forget, their other co-partner in this is essentially the fake news, where they selectively leaked information to the fake news and continue to do that today.
00:30:40.000And look, just to add insult to injury, and the reason that I'm running True Social, we also now know that they were taking that big tech was taking action on behalf of these bad actors.
00:31:08.000We're always trying to go a level deeper here on this program.
00:31:10.000And the constitutional violations of separate but equal powers and checks and balances is so flagrant.
00:31:19.000That's the buried lead here, is how they feel as if they can run the government.
00:31:25.000Man, if there's a reason to put people in prison, it would be to think that they can create their own branch of government.
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00:32:27.000Devin, talk about Facebook, the news story from the New York Post, spying on private messages of Americans who question the 2020 election.
00:32:36.000Yeah, I actually just posted that, reposted that on True Social, Charlie, because that came as a shock to me.
00:32:44.000And this is just right on the heels of the Biden administration and the evidence of FBI and others saying that the, I'm sorry, during the Biden campaign, pressuring FBI to then pressure Facebook and Twitter and others to censor the Hunter Biden laptop story and say that it was Russian disinformation.
00:33:06.000You may remember, I think it was Zuckerberg revealed that on Joe Rogan's podcast here just a month ago.
00:33:16.000Obviously, a lot of ground to plow here for hopefully what is a new Republican Congress.
00:33:23.000They've got a lot of work to do and all they're going to be able to do is expose and then hope for 2024.
00:33:32.000Yeah, I mean, the details of this, as reported by Miranda Devine, Facebook has been spying on the private messages and data of Americans who report and reporting them to the FBI if they express anti-government or anti-authority sentiments or question the 2020 election.
00:33:49.000Under the FBI collaboration question, somebody at Facebook, operation, I'm sorry, somebody at Facebook red flagged these supposedly subversive private messages over the last 19 months.
00:34:01.000So I'm sure that some agreement that they check a box on, Devin, you know, shows that, okay, we're, you know, we don't, we can give whatever data we want to whatever people.
00:34:11.000But how is this more philosophically not a violation of privacy?
00:34:16.000How is this not a core crossing of the privacy Rubicon that Mark Zuckerberg always says true?
00:34:43.000This is why Rumble exists because we have to have a place where people can go and know that their data is not going to be searched through.
00:34:54.000It's not going to be given away or sold.
00:34:57.000And that's the problem is that these are private companies.
00:35:01.000And you know all the arguments that some of these big tech companies are probably should be sued under antitrust because they're monopolies.
00:35:11.000But for sure, kind of the social media companies just sucking up and taking all your data is something that we don't do at True Social.
00:35:21.000A lot of people have compared us to Twitter, True Social to Twitter.
00:35:27.000And look, that's fine because right now we are news and information.
00:35:31.000But look, we know where the users are.
00:35:34.000And Twitter is just a place for people to go put their press releases on.
00:35:38.000for corporates and and Hollywood types and sports figures, they just and politicians to put out press releases.
00:35:47.000But you know this, Charlie, you know, you get under the age of 45, not a lot of people are on, those people are not on Twitter.
00:35:53.000And in fact, they're not even on Facebook anymore.
00:35:56.000You can argue they're on Instagram, which is owned by Facebook, but these young kids are on TikTok.
00:36:02.000And so what's worse, you got Facebook doing work on behalf of a corrupt DOJ and FBI that we just talked about in the last segment, which I think brings up all kinds of questions.
00:36:50.000Hey, you know, it's every day, every day we grow and every day we get attacked by the left, Charlie, and by the fake news, which means things are going well.