The Charlie Kirk Show - February 28, 2026


Charlie Debate Throwback: Charlie on the Bible


Episode Stats


Length

36 minutes

Words per minute

197.05205

Word count

7,130

Sentence count

623

Harmful content

Misogyny

9

sentences flagged

Toxicity

8

sentences flagged

Hate speech

28

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show, I sit down with my good friend and former student activist, Charlie Kirk, to talk about immigration. We talk about the benefits of immigration and how it benefits the home country. My parents came to the United States legally and did not have to pay a dime in taxes. They worked hard to support their family and were able to provide for their family. I believe that immigrants should be given the same rights and benefits as the rest of us.

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Charlie Kirk Show" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.
00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.
00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.
00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.
00:00:19.000 But if the most important thing is doing good, you'll end up purposeful.
00:00:24.000 College is a scam, everybody.
00:00:26.000 You got to stop sending your kids to college.
00:00:27.000 You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.
00:00:31.000 Go start a Turning Point USA college chapter.
00:00:33.000 Go start a Turning Point USA high school chapter.
00:00:35.000 Go find out how your church can get involved.
00:00:37.000 Sign up and become an activist.
00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.
00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life.
00:00:43.000 And I encourage you to do the same.
00:00:45.000 Here I am.
00:00:46.000 Lord, use me.
00:00:48.000 Buckle up, everybody.
00:00:49.000 Here we go.
00:00:56.000 The Charlie Kirk Show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers.
00:01:09.000 So my stance today is on immigration.
00:01:11.000 I think that immigration contributes a lot to America.
00:01:14.000 So my parents did come here legally, and they right now are in the process again.
00:01:18.000 And it takes a long time.
00:01:20.000 No, they came here legally, like they came with their visa, and now they're renewing it, and it's a different process right now.
00:01:25.000 But so I'm really religious.
00:01:28.000 I'm Catholic.
00:01:28.000 My parents grew me up that way.
00:01:30.000 And in Matthew 2, 13 through 15, it talks about how Jesus had to flee Nazareth, or no, Bethlehem, sorry.
00:01:36.000 He had to flee because someone was going to die.
00:01:39.000 And they were looking to kill him.
00:01:40.000 And he had to flee his own country and leave everything behind because an angel spoke to Mary and Joseph that they should leave.
00:01:47.000 So a lot of people do that.
00:01:49.000 That's why they immigrate to the United States. 0.99
00:01:51.000 A lot of people have to leave everything behind because not everyone just wants to pack up all the things and leave.
00:01:56.000 Right now, I personally would hate if I had to sell my car, my house, leave my parents, leave my friends, and leave everyone.
00:02:03.000 So I just want to know what your stance is on that, just because in the Bible it talks about that.
00:02:08.000 Right.
00:02:08.000 So first of all, Jesus actually didn't emigrate.
00:02:10.000 He stayed within the confines of the Roman Empire because Egypt was actually under Roman jurisdiction.
00:02:15.000 That's a separate point.
00:02:16.000 But there are plenty of verses that says you should welcome the stranger.
00:02:19.000 And so I will grant you that.
00:02:21.000 I guess the first point I would have to ask is, should immigration always benefit the home country?
00:02:28.000 I think so, yes.
00:02:29.000 And that is one thing that I looked into.
00:02:31.000 So there are immigrants right now working here, correct?
00:02:33.000 And they get some of their paycheck cut off, right?
00:02:36.000 Because of Social Security and all those benefits.
00:02:38.000 But they don't get those benefits because they're illegal immigrants. 0.99
00:02:40.000 So do you mean legal or illegal immigrants?
00:02:42.000 That distinction is very important.
00:02:44.000 Illegal.
00:02:45.000 They don't get those benefits.
00:02:46.000 So let's just be clear.
00:02:47.000 If they have a social security number, how'd they get that?
00:02:51.000 They stole it.
00:02:51.000 The right way.
00:02:54.000 You don't get a social security number as an illegal, period.
00:02:56.000 It does not happen.
00:02:58.000 They stole it.
00:02:59.000 So that's an act of theft.
00:03:01.000 So they stole an American Social Security number to be able to work here, which drives down wages, which drives down opportunity costs.
00:03:08.000 But even beyond that, we just have to look at their action.
00:03:11.000 They were not invited to come to this country. 0.95
00:03:13.000 They broke in line.
00:03:14.000 They cut in line.
00:03:16.000 And we should not reward line cutters or border jumpers.
00:03:19.000 We should reward people like your parents that actually came here legally to this country.
00:03:27.000 Yeah, I understand that point.
00:03:29.000 I really do.
00:03:30.000 But sometimes people generally need to leave their country.
00:03:33.000 Because in like my mother's case, for instance, there was like a terrorist attack on my family.
00:03:38.000 And that's the reason my mom had to come.
00:03:39.000 And thankfully, she did get it immediately.
00:03:41.000 But now I've heard of so many stories where people have to wait like 10 years, 20 years, even 30 years.
00:03:46.000 Like my grandma right now is trying to get the process. 1.00
00:03:48.000 And thankfully she is now.
00:03:50.000 But it's taken her about 10 years now.
00:03:52.000 And she makes enough money in her country and she just wants to come here as a tourist. 0.99
00:03:55.000 That's the main reason.
00:03:57.000 And I do understand that.
00:03:59.000 I think that my main point is that how we should implement more money into the immigration system.
00:04:03.000 Because Trump's zero tolerance policy, that just felt cruel because there's a lot of people here that are doing well and zero tolerance.
00:04:11.000 They just have to leave the country.
00:04:13.000 I feel like that was inhumane of him.
00:04:14.000 Yeah, but it's not their country, though.
00:04:16.000 And that's the so let me just look here's if I went to Mexico without being invited or allowed and I took a job and the Mexican government found out, what would the Mexican government do to me?
00:04:29.000 I'm not sure.
00:04:30.000 They would send me back to America. 0.89
00:04:32.000 And why was the reason you left the U.S. first?
00:04:35.000 So reason, that's an interesting thing.
00:04:37.000 Is there ever a legitimate reason, in your opinion, to commit a crime?
00:04:43.000 No.
00:04:44.000 Well, then the reason doesn't matter.
00:04:46.000 Because under that say, so let's can you rob a bank because you wish you had more money?
00:04:50.000 No, you work harder.
00:04:52.000 Then why doesn't that moral standard apply to immigration?
00:04:55.000 Because the system isn't doing its job.
00:04:57.000 That's why I think we should implement more money.
00:04:59.000 Because there is some people, like I do get it.
00:05:01.000 You know, some people come here and then I do admit some of them commit crime, but not all of them.
00:05:05.000 No, no, but they're all criminals if they came illegally.
00:05:08.000 That's the distinction.
00:05:10.000 By definition, they're breaking federal law, 8 USC 1312.
00:05:14.000 Just their presence here is against the law.
00:05:16.000 Would you be okay welcoming 500 million people into America?
00:05:20.000 That's why we should implement the system to understand each other.
00:05:22.000 No, no, you got to answer.
00:05:23.000 Do you think 500 million people would be too many people?
00:05:26.000 500 million?
00:05:27.000 I don't even think that would fit the United States.
00:05:28.000 I agree.
00:05:29.000 And that's the point: if everyone all of a sudden declared that their life was in danger, we'd have to let in like all of Nicaragua, all of Honduras, almost all of Venezuela. 0.99
00:05:38.000 The standard all of a sudden starts falling apart.
00:05:40.000 And we find that people lie about this, they deceive it.
00:05:43.000 Here's my perspective: why don't we try to empower those people to make the countries they're coming from greater and stronger, or else this problem will actually never be fixed at the root level?
00:05:54.000 Does that make sense?
00:05:55.000 It does make sense.
00:05:56.000 And I wish it was that easy.
00:05:58.000 So for instance, I am part Peruvian and in Peru.
00:06:02.000 So they were having a presidential election.
00:06:05.000 And the president who was going to win was better for the country and would help out a lot more.
00:06:10.000 But since it's corrupt, they made the other president win.
00:06:13.000 They sent him death threats, nearly almost killed him.
00:06:15.000 He had to fake his death and leave, and they jailed her.
00:06:19.000 They jailed her completely and they let the guy win. 0.92
00:06:21.000 That is why it's corrupt.
00:06:22.000 It's hard to fix a country when there's no help towards it.
00:06:26.000 So Peru was.
00:06:27.000 They were rooting for the good president.
00:06:29.000 They were rooting to build their system back up.
00:06:31.000 But the other president, it was rigged.
00:06:33.000 It was completely rigged.
00:06:34.000 So does it make it better or worse if millions of people leave that country?
00:06:39.000 For Peru.
00:06:41.000 Can you, like, what do you mean by that?
00:06:43.000 If 3 million people left Peru.
00:06:44.000 Does Peru get greater or weaker?
00:06:46.000 Stronger or weaker?
00:06:51.000 Neither.
00:06:51.000 I mean, it's in a weak state right now.
00:06:53.000 I mean, it's pretty obvious.
00:06:55.000 I'm trying to even say that mass immigration is bad for everybody. 1.00
00:06:58.000 It's bad for America and it's bad for the country that people are leaving from. 1.00
00:07:01.000 The only difference is that they send back American money through remittances that actually subsidize this entire thing.
00:07:07.000 Let me ask one final question.
00:07:08.000 If somebody comes into America without invitation and they are illegal, what do you think the penalty should be?
00:07:16.000 I think it's humane to look at their case and why they had to leave everything they've ever known.
00:07:21.000 We believe that we should send them back to their country of origin. 1.00
00:07:28.000 I just want to make one more final point.
00:07:30.000 So I do understand that, but my final point is that do you agree that we should implement more money to the immigration system?
00:07:36.000 No, I think we should have no immigrants in the country for the next 10 years. 1.00
00:07:39.000 We have way too many people in this country.
00:07:41.000 And I'll prove it to you here in California.
00:07:43.000 Your hospitals are overrun.
00:07:45.000 Your schools are overrun.
00:07:46.000 Do you guys agree that you have a crowded state right now?
00:07:52.000 We are a, California is a cluttered state with social services that are being strained, and we need a pause on all immigration, in my opinion, to metaphorically digest the major meal that we just ate, or else we are going to have a major, major assimilation problem, cultural problem, cohesion problem, all sorts of issues. 0.99
00:08:15.000 And I know this is a provocative thing to say, but immigration is something that you use as a way to benefit the homeland.
00:08:22.000 You don't have to have immigration.
00:08:24.000 But just as an example, my parents came here, like I said, legally zero dollars, and they have benefited so much to the country.
00:08:30.000 They have made so much, like hundreds and thousands of dollars.
00:08:33.000 Praise God, that's the American dream.
00:08:35.000 It is, and it's just like a hard thing to do.
00:08:37.000 And I want American-born young people from UC Riverside to also have that American dream and not have to compete against foreigners for that.
00:08:45.000 Thank you for your time.
00:08:46.000 Can I say one point?
00:08:47.000 We have a long line.
00:08:48.000 Thank you.
00:08:48.000 Really quick, though.
00:08:49.000 Okay, again, what is it?
00:08:50.000 Sorry.
00:08:50.000 Okay.
00:08:51.000 I understand.
00:08:51.000 The American dream is hard.
00:08:53.000 My parents, my mom was pregnant, working two jobs one day, and she sacrificed everything, and now she has more money than the average American. 0.99
00:09:01.000 Praise God, that is the American dream.
00:09:02.000 Thank you very much.
00:09:03.000 That's hard work.
00:09:04.000 Thank you.
00:09:04.000 Thank you.
00:09:07.000 Imagine being a young woman just finding out that you're pregnant, not knowing where to go or what to do, not even knowing exactly what is going on in your body.
00:09:15.000 While the whole world tells her it's just a clump of cells, you and I, we both know the truth.
00:09:21.000 We know it is a baby.
00:09:22.000 And once she has an ultrasound that you provide and she sees the truth of the baby growing inside of her, you help her choose life.
00:09:30.000 When you join us in providing ultrasounds with pre-born and she sees her baby and hears her baby's heartbeat, you will double the likelihood that she will choose life.
00:09:40.000 And 100% of what you give goes to providing ultrasounds, 100% pre-born separately fundraises for administrative costs.
00:09:49.000 $280 can save 10 babies.
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00:10:06.000 Call 833-850-2229 or click on the pre-born banner at charliekirk.com today.
00:10:14.000 Again, that's 833-850-2229 or click on the pre-born banner at charliekirk.com.
00:10:22.000 I want to talk about the debate of abortion.
00:10:25.000 So I know that it's something very controversial.
00:10:29.000 Some people are pro-choice, some people are pro-life.
00:10:33.000 Before I start, I want to make sure that I understand your opinion fully so I don't take, you know, what I've heard online.
00:10:38.000 What is your stance on abortion?
00:10:40.000 Life begins at conception.
00:10:42.000 Okay.
00:10:43.000 So where do you, so conception, so is that when sperm enters the egg?
00:10:47.000 Is that during sperm?
00:10:48.000 When new DNA is formed.
00:10:49.000 Okay, when new DNA is formed.
00:10:51.000 So the egg by itself, you don't think, is anything.
00:10:54.000 Sorry?
00:10:55.000 The egg of a woman by itself, do you think it's anything? 1.00
00:10:57.000 It's something, but it's not a life, correct?
00:10:59.000 Okay, that's, okay.
00:11:00.000 So my question is, when you talk about abortion and why you think you, why you support it, why you don't support it, sorry.
00:11:08.000 Why you don't support it, what do you use as your evidence?
00:11:11.000 You use scientific evidence?
00:11:12.000 Do you talk about the Bible?
00:11:13.000 Do you use both?
00:11:14.000 Mainly scientific and self-evident reason.
00:11:17.000 Okay.
00:11:18.000 So are you someone who's a follower of the Bible?
00:11:21.000 I am, but that's not relevant to this discussion.
00:11:23.000 But we could talk about it if you'd like.
00:11:25.000 I find it relevant because when I'm going to talk about abortion, there's quotes in the Bible that I think support pro-choice, in my opinion.
00:11:36.000 Bible, Exodus.
00:11:41.000 Exodus 21, 22 through 25.
00:11:45.000 When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman so that her child come out, so miscarriage, but there is no harm to the woman, the one who hit her shall surely be fined.
00:11:54.000 As the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 0.88
00:11:58.000 But if there is harm to the woman, you shall pay life for life, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
00:12:06.000 So I know that that could be interpreted different ways.
00:12:08.000 The Bible is interpreted in many ways.
00:12:10.000 There's different types, different interpretations.
00:12:14.000 But this says if a person causes a miscarriage through a woman, that they will pay for the abortion.
00:12:22.000 So they will pay.
00:12:24.000 Another one will punish them.
00:12:26.000 That is not what this law says.
00:12:27.000 But let me just ask, are you a Christian?
00:12:29.000 Yes.
00:12:30.000 Okay, then continue.
00:12:33.000 Do you believe in the inerrant word of God?
00:12:35.000 Yes.
00:12:36.000 Okay, good.
00:12:37.000 Yes.
00:12:38.000 So it says that, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
00:12:44.000 So the judges determine, and it's talking about the husband, so therefore it's talking about a person, not God himself, not his judgment.
00:12:51.000 So it's saying if someone has an abortion, we have the right to choose what to do to them. 0.91
00:12:56.000 Can you say it was a miscarriage, not an abortion?
00:12:58.000 It says when man strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that's causing her to lose the baby.
00:13:04.000 That's outside cause.
00:13:06.000 Outside cause.
00:13:07.000 Therefore it could mean abortion.
00:13:09.000 Because some people find that abrasive abortion is through violence, such as hitting, because not everyone has access to medical.
00:13:17.000 Was it the intent for them to kill the baby?
00:13:19.000 It's unclarified, so that I cannot tell you.
00:13:23.000 However, what I will say is that it says that it's the judges determine, the husband determines.
00:13:29.000 So God's not making the choice for us what to do with the person who does that to someone's child, does that to their own child.
00:13:38.000 But it does say that if the woman is harmed, her herself, not the child, then they are liable by God, their life for her life, their foot for her foot.
00:13:47.000 So what I'm saying is if somebody needs an abortion for health care, let's say a woman's baby's not going to make it, and if the baby stays in her womb, she will die. 0.94
00:13:57.000 And they refuse her an abortion, they refuse her that health care and she dies, should the doctor be liable under God?
00:14:05.000 First of all, those instances don't happen.
00:14:08.000 So let's just be clear.
00:14:09.000 No, see, you guys are so propagandized by this.
00:14:11.000 That only happens in a very rare case of the breaking of the uterus.
00:14:14.000 So it does happen.
00:14:15.000 But no, but where the baby is already dead, and that's what the point is that the baby is already dead.
00:14:19.000 That's a removal of a carcass of a baby.
00:14:21.000 It's also still medically.
00:14:22.000 No, it's not.
00:14:23.000 That's incorrect.
00:14:24.000 No, it's not.
00:14:25.000 No, it's not.
00:14:26.000 A removal of a carcass of a baby is not an abortion.
00:14:29.000 Those are two technically different things.
00:14:31.000 It is not a DNE.
00:14:32.000 It is not.
00:14:32.000 A DNE is something completely different.
00:14:35.000 But then, if you want to talk about scripture, do you think we are bound to all 613 Levitical laws?
00:14:43.000 Yes, if you're a follower of the Bible, you cannot pick and choose what you follow.
00:14:46.000 Oh, so do you eat kosher?
00:14:48.000 You cannot pick and kosher. 0.68
00:14:49.000 Do you eat kosher?
00:14:50.000 No.
00:14:50.000 Well, I thought you were bound to all 613 laws.
00:14:53.000 I'm not perfect.
00:14:54.000 I'm a sinner.
00:14:55.000 Everyone here is a sinner, but if you choose...
00:14:56.000 Well, are we bound to it?
00:14:57.000 Do you think Christians should eat kosher? 1.00
00:14:58.000 If you can't choose to follow the Bible, you cannot pick and choose what you follow.
00:15:03.000 Of course, but we do believe in a new covenant, an old covenant.
00:15:05.000 So there's three types of Old Testament laws, right?
00:15:08.000 There's ceremonial, there's civil, and moral.
00:15:10.000 So ceremonial laws we do not honor.
00:15:12.000 Civil we consider.
00:15:13.000 Moral we absolutely.
00:15:15.000 Why do humans decide what to follow in God declared?
00:15:17.000 Because Christ actually, it's not humans.
00:15:20.000 So Paul actually authored in the book of Colossians.
00:15:23.000 That's a human. 0.92
00:15:24.000 Right.
00:15:25.000 Inspired by the Holy Spirit, which wrote the Bible.
00:15:27.000 The ordinances of Moses are nailed to the cross.
00:15:31.000 Secondly, Christ our Lord repeated nine out of ten of the Ten Commandments.
00:15:36.000 And he said, all the laws of the prophet hang upon the two teachings of Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6.
00:15:42.000 But now I equally have to challenge you with scripture.
00:15:45.000 In Luke 1, when Elizabeth came in contact with Mary and both were babies, what did it say that John the Baptist did?
00:15:56.000 I cannot tell you that.
00:15:57.000 He leapt.
00:15:59.000 Okay.
00:16:00.000 Do non-babies leap? 1.00
00:16:04.000 I don't understand the question.
00:16:06.000 I'm going to be honest.
00:16:08.000 Isn't it a baby then worthy of protection if they're leaping?
00:16:12.000 I suppose.
00:16:14.000 Yes.
00:16:14.000 And it was the Greek word brephos, which literally means baby, intentionally used throughout.
00:16:19.000 Hold on.
00:16:19.000 In Jeremiah, it says, I knew you before you were in the womb.
00:16:22.000 In Psalm, I think 139, it's one of the most intricate verses about the detail of our formation process as human beings.
00:16:29.000 And finally, because of science, because of biology, we know that human life begins at that spark of new DNA.
00:16:36.000 And God says, do not murder.
00:16:38.000 And it's incumbent on Christians to therefore protect that life. 0.85
00:16:41.000 Okay.
00:16:41.000 So my biggest question is, I'm not saying that all abortion is valid.
00:16:47.000 I feel like that's up for everyone to decide.
00:16:49.000 But in the most, even if it's very small percentage, in the very small percentage, that a baby is alive, but it has to be aborted for the sake of the mother.
00:16:58.000 What do you think is a matter of time?
00:16:59.000 C-section.
00:17:00.000 What is a C-section?
00:17:02.000 A C-section is when you cut a mother's. 0.97
00:17:04.000 Why don't they do that instead of the abortion? 1.00
00:17:06.000 Because it could be equally as dangerous.
00:17:08.000 Wrong.
00:17:08.000 It's much safer than an abortion and quicker.
00:17:10.000 Do you have evidence?
00:17:11.000 I mean, yes, it's self-evident.
00:17:14.000 Can you tell me?
00:17:15.000 I mean, again, there's plenty of people.
00:17:17.000 He has evidence.
00:17:18.000 Plenty of people that are in medicine can tell you, but like, to be very clear, think about it.
00:17:23.000 Every hospital is equipped to do C-sections.
00:17:26.000 You have to go to a specific place for an abortion. 1.00
00:17:28.000 And a C-section, one-third out of everyone in this audience was born by C-section.
00:17:33.000 C-sections save lives.
00:17:34.000 They do not terminate lives.
00:17:36.000 And so when they say we must abort the baby, thanks to modern technology, that's actually a false choice.
00:17:41.000 You could take the baby out of the environment and try to save its life as a cesarean section.
00:17:46.000 What if when the C-section happens, the baby's not able to survive on its own no matter what?
00:17:50.000 Okay, well then that's a separate circumstance.
00:17:51.000 It's like saying if the baby has a heart attack after the C-section.
00:17:54.000 That's not a reason not to terminate it.
00:17:57.000 What do you mean?
00:17:59.000 You have to give everybody a chance at life.
00:18:02.000 You don't kill the baby in the womb just because you think that it's going to, well, it could hurt the mother.
00:18:07.000 You take it out of that environment.
00:18:09.000 Okay, but what I'm saying is if they take the baby out and they know it's not going to survive regardless.
00:18:15.000 How did I know that post-22 weeks?
00:18:17.000 You don't know that.
00:18:19.000 There's miracles that happen every day in the neonatal.
00:18:21.000 That's true.
00:18:22.000 Hold on.
00:18:23.000 In the neonatal intensive care unit, there's miracles that happen every day in NICUs.
00:18:27.000 And I agree.
00:18:27.000 There's definitely, they don't know 100% for sure, but there's definitely probability through science, through biology, that they know, hey, this is more likely going to happen.
00:18:35.000 We don't do morals on probability.
00:18:39.000 I'm not saying it's morality.
00:18:41.000 I'm saying probability of a baby is going to survive or not.
00:18:43.000 It doesn't matter.
00:18:44.000 You don't terminate a life based on a probability of survival.
00:18:48.000 Oh, you do?
00:18:50.000 Interesting. 0.94
00:18:51.000 You guys murder people based on probability of survival? 0.92
00:18:55.000 Interesting. 0.97
00:18:56.000 So somebody on a ventilator should just be murdered?
00:18:59.000 I mean, it's such incredible morality.
00:19:00.000 Would you keep someone on a ventilator for the entire of everything else then?
00:19:04.000 It depends.
00:19:05.000 There's two different things.
00:19:06.000 There's no more and not yet.
00:19:07.000 Once you reach the level of no more human interventions can improve this person's life or bring them back to a full life, that is a separate moral decision than not yet.
00:19:17.000 When a human being is at not yet, which they are in the womb, you must do everything you can to make sure they get life.
00:19:22.000 When a human being is at no more, it's a completely separate moral dimension and decision to make.
00:19:26.000 No more and not yet are the ways to look at pro-life decisions.
00:19:29.000 That makes sense?
00:19:30.000 Yes, that makes sense.
00:19:31.000 Well, thank you for debating with me.
00:19:32.000 Thank you very much.
00:19:33.000 Agree to disagree.
00:19:36.000 Hi, folks.
00:19:37.000 Andrew Colvett here.
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00:20:35.000 I have a friend named Thomas Sheedy.
00:20:37.000 He is the founder of an organization called Atheists for Liberty.
00:20:41.000 He is openly conservative, but he's mostly interested in atheist activism and normalizing atheism and all sects, including the conservative movement.
00:20:50.000 He seems to be under the impression that a lot of conservatives, including you, are more hesitant to work with atheist organizations.
00:20:56.000 Is there any truth to that?
00:20:58.000 Yes and no.
00:20:59.000 I mean, if you're an atheist and you want to be part of the conservative movement, go ahead.
00:21:03.000 But you must be an honest atheist and acknowledge that morality is definitionally subjective without a belief in God.
00:21:10.000 You cannot be an atheist and believe in objective morality.
00:21:13.000 It is an impossibility.
00:21:14.000 And true atheists will acknowledge this. 0.97
00:21:16.000 At some point, you have an ought claim.
00:21:19.000 Well, things ought to be a certain way.
00:21:21.000 We as Christians, or we that believe in the divine, we have is claims that murder is wrong.
00:21:27.000 Whereas an atheist will say, well, murder ought to be wrong because you can't have an objective definition if there is not a divine eternal power over you.
00:21:35.000 So look, if an atheist wants to fight alongside of us to end abortion or to try and end the massacring of our kids, that's called gender-affirming care. 0.79
00:21:44.000 Or if an atheist wants to march alongside of us to say no men in female sports, they're more than welcome to be able to do that.
00:21:51.000 But atheists for liberty is an interesting phrase because I don't believe you can have liberty without God because liberty is not man's idea.
00:21:58.000 It is God's idea.
00:21:59.000 That's just my own personal belief, and it's also the belief of everything that built this nation.
00:22:03.000 But yes, I know a lot of good atheists.
00:22:06.000 The question, though, is how do you know they're good?
00:22:08.000 It's because you're appealing to a moral authority above just the secular material realm, one that is transcendent, we would believe, given by God.
00:22:18.000 Well, I don't believe in objective morality.
00:22:20.000 I do know there are plenty of atheists who are moral objectivists.
00:22:23.000 Are you an atheist?
00:22:24.000 Sorry to interrupt.
00:22:24.000 Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:22:25.000 Okay, cool.
00:22:25.000 So let me just, can I ask you a question?
00:22:27.000 And I don't mean, I know this is your first time at the mic, so I'm just going to try to be tender in doing this.
00:22:31.000 Okay.
00:22:31.000 Appreciate it.
00:22:32.000 So you don't believe in objective morality, right?
00:22:34.000 I personally don't.
00:22:35.000 Okay.
00:22:35.000 Was the Holocaust objectively wrong?
00:22:37.000 Objectively, no, but it would have been better if it didn't happen because most people wouldn't want that to happen.
00:22:42.000 So that's where we are on different planets.
00:22:47.000 And that's okay.
00:22:48.000 I'm not trying to make fun of you.
00:22:49.000 I'm trying to be graceful in the way that we're going about this.
00:22:52.000 Do you think Hitler was objectively evil?
00:22:55.000 No, because it's subjective.
00:22:58.000 But I just hope all of you guys understand he's being an honest atheist to your credit because as an atheist, you're not allowed to say anything is objectively right or wrong.
00:23:07.000 I come from a worldview that when you butcher six million people, that is objectively wrong, no matter what.
00:23:14.000 And it's very important.
00:23:15.000 It's a very important truth claim because when you do not have objective truth anchoring your society, then it becomes a power struggle.
00:23:23.000 If you do not have truth, then power will reign.
00:23:26.000 Whoever can get the most amount of power then ends up having the most amount of say over society.
00:23:32.000 We believe what is objectively right, true, good, and beautiful should be transcendent over society.
00:23:37.000 Your thoughts?
00:23:38.000 So do you believe objective morality specifically comes from the Bible?
00:23:41.000 Yes and no.
00:23:42.000 It's in nature and the Bible explains nature.
00:23:45.000 So objective morality can be discovered in many different cultures and societies pointing towards what we believe is the ultimate objective truth, Jesus Christ.
00:23:53.000 C.S. Lewis explained this the best in his book Abolition of Man, which is that almost every religion talks about a certain way to live, a Tao, or a path that we should be on.
00:24:04.000 And so more simply than just the Bible, we believe in what the founders believed, which is an ethical monotheism, that there is one God.
00:24:14.000 He has a general way that he wants you to live.
00:24:16.000 For example, murdering is bad, kidnapping is wrong, defense of the innocent, and we should do our best to try to live alongside of that path.
00:24:24.000 Okay, well, I think those are very interesting examples.
00:24:26.000 You bring up the founders, you bring up Hitler, but Hitler was a self-proclaimed Catholic, and he called Nazism a Christian movement.
00:24:33.000 Yeah, I would be careful saying that.
00:24:35.000 He was not.
00:24:36.000 That's okay.
00:24:37.000 He called himself a Catholic.
00:24:38.000 He specifically said in 1927, our movement is Christian.
00:24:41.000 They had on the belt buckles God on our side. 0.99
00:24:43.000 Yet they let us swear to the Almighty God.
00:24:46.000 Atheists were not trusted to be in the SS.
00:24:49.000 Even if I grant you that, despite the fact that he killed a lot of pastors and priests, and of course you can pervert things in the name of God.
00:24:57.000 No one denounces that.
00:24:59.000 Just as a side note, though, far more people died under the banner of atheism than Christianity in the 20th century.
00:25:05.000 Mao was an atheist.
00:25:06.000 Stalin was an atheist.
00:25:07.000 Pol Pot was an atheist. 0.83
00:25:09.000 Believing in no God actually led to the destruction and the murder of well over 100 million people.
00:25:14.000 And that's fine.
00:25:15.000 So, again, if atheists want to come alongside us as conservatives and fight for what is good, that is great.
00:25:21.000 But I will never acknowledge that atheists can tell me what is objectively good. 1.00
00:25:25.000 They can only give me a preference.
00:25:27.000 They cannot tell me what is right.
00:25:29.000 And preferences eventually will lead you towards moral and societal decline.
00:25:34.000 Okay, so I think you just listed a bunch of communists, and it's worth acknowledging the vast majority of atheists are not communists, just like the vast majority of Christians are not theocrats who don't support the divine right.
00:25:44.000 It's also worth acknowledging that the founders were actually inspired by Enlightenment values, not by the Bible.
00:25:50.000 America was founded as a secular nation.
00:25:52.000 We were the first, quote-unquote, godless constitution.
00:25:56.000 Yeah, again, I've done this so many times, so I don't know if we want to waste our time doing this, but 55 out of 56 of the signers of the Declaration were Bible-believing church-attending Christians.
00:26:05.000 Nine out of 13 of the states of the Titan ratification required a declaration of faith in order for you to serve in the states.
00:26:11.000 Our birth certificate, which is the Mayflower Compact, said explicitly, we are here to spread Christianity throughout the land.
00:26:16.000 It was the first great revival that led to the American Revolution of Jonathan Edwards and Jonathan Mayhew and George Whitfield that preached all across the Eastern seaboard.
00:26:24.000 John Adams famously said the Constitution is written solely for immoral and religious people.
00:26:28.000 It's wholly inadequate for the people of any other. 0.98
00:26:30.000 We were a Christian nation that was able to embrace the idea of a free society.
00:26:34.000 God is mentioned four times in the Declaration of Independence.
00:26:36.000 Not only that, Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, where it says we appeal to the divine judge of the universe, which of course is a direct appeal to Jesus in the book of Revelation.
00:26:45.000 Yes, there were rationalist Enlightenment values that informed some of the founders, but it irrefutably was a Christian nation. 0.99
00:26:51.000 Maryland was Catholic.
00:26:53.000 Pennsylvania was Quaker. 0.99
00:26:54.000 Almost every state had their own specific type of Christian preference.
00:26:59.000 The idea of an atheist or not believing in any God was an idea that was so foreign to the founders.
00:27:04.000 Even Thomas Jefferson, the great deist, he revered the Bible, albeit with some significant edits.
00:27:10.000 However, the idea of believing in no cosmological or no axiological or no teleological or no ontological being would be a concept that our founding fathers would not just find foreign, they would find it extraordinarily dangerous.
00:27:22.000 Why?
00:27:23.000 Because the French Revolution was happening simultaneously as the American Revolution, which was explicitly atheist.
00:27:29.000 They actually recreated their own gods and had, they said, we are going to appeal to what?
00:27:34.000 The God of reason.
00:27:35.000 And this is my final contention: is that when I talk to atheists, the French Revolution is a great example.
00:27:40.000 They literally tried to change the Gregorian calendar to a 10-day week.
00:27:43.000 They went and imprisoned people of faith.
00:27:44.000 They put priests in jail, all these different sorts of things.
00:27:47.000 They said, We are going to appeal to the God of reason.
00:27:49.000 Well, how did that work out?
00:27:50.000 It worked out with the guillotine and the slaughter of tens of thousands of people.
00:27:54.000 The French Revolution was one of the greatest disasters in human recorded history.
00:27:58.000 Contrast that with the American Revolution.
00:28:00.000 Why did the American Revolution create the greatest nation ever to exist in the history of the world?
00:28:04.000 And the French Revolution resulted in a lot of blood and even the killing of their own once leader, Maximilian Robespierre.
00:28:09.000 It's because we were anchored on Christian ideas.
00:28:12.000 If you are not anchored on Christian ideas, then don't be surprised and all of a sudden there is no fruit to the harvest that you're trying to create.
00:28:20.000 Before he ever stepped behind a microphone, Charlie understood something important.
00:28:24.000 Leadership begins with learning.
00:28:27.000 He didn't chase a diploma or a title, he chased truth.
00:28:30.000 Through Hillsdale College's free online courses, he studied the great works of the classics, the principles of the American founding, and the life-changing truths of the Bible.
00:28:39.000 Those ideas didn't just inform him, they shaped his character, strengthened his convictions, and prepared him for the challenges ahead.
00:28:46.000 One of the courses he took was the Genesis story, taught by Hillsdale professor Dr. Justin Jackson.
00:28:51.000 This free online course explores the relationship between God and man, what happens when that relationship is broken, and the path toward reconciliation.
00:28:59.000 It's a real college course, rigorous, thoughtful, and accessible to anyone willing to learn.
00:29:05.000 You can take the very same course completely free.
00:29:07.000 Grow stronger in your faith, gain clarity about humanity and your place in the world.
00:29:12.000 Prepare yourself for a life with courage and conviction.
00:29:15.000 Visit charlie4hillsdale.com to enroll today.
00:29:19.000 That's charlieforhillsdale.com.
00:29:21.000 Learn deeply, lead boldly, carry it forward.
00:29:27.000 I'm an atheist, so I disagree with your religious claims.
00:29:30.000 Do you believe in absolute truth?
00:29:34.000 I'm not sure you can provide me just positive evidence that there is absolute truth.
00:29:37.000 So the answer would be, I'm not sure.
00:29:40.000 Are you absolutely not sure?
00:29:41.000 I'm not sure if I'm absolutely not sure.
00:29:43.000 See, this works if you say no, but it doesn't work if you bottom out in the I'm not, I don't know question.
00:29:47.000 Right, no, but saying you're not sure, you are not even sure if you're not sure.
00:29:51.000 So at some point, you just always have to make a truth claim, yeah?
00:29:54.000 No, you can just be not sure about everything all the way down.
00:29:56.000 I don't see why you can't.
00:29:57.000 And my answer would be: I think truth is instrumentalist in theory.
00:30:00.000 I think it's a thing we choose pragmatically.
00:30:02.000 For the purposes of discussion, I think you can say, yeah, I think truth exists pragmatically.
00:30:06.000 Regardless of that, I don't see how you get to God.
00:30:08.000 Are you alive?
00:30:09.000 Huh?
00:30:10.000 Are you alive?
00:30:11.000 I think I'm alive, yeah.
00:30:12.000 Think you're alive?
00:30:13.000 Yeah.
00:30:16.000 Is the sun shining?
00:30:17.000 I think it's shining, yeah.
00:30:19.000 From my frame of reference, it is shining.
00:30:22.000 Notice how none of this.
00:30:24.000 I mean, notice how you've gotten no steps closer to proving God.
00:30:28.000 No, I'm asking questions, man.
00:30:30.000 Are you sure we did it?
00:30:32.000 Yeah, I'm sharing the praise.
00:30:34.000 Are you sure we did?
00:30:36.000 I'm sure in the pragmatic instrumentalist.
00:30:37.000 How sure are you that we did it?
00:30:39.000 In the pragmatic instrumentalist sense?
00:30:41.000 Absolutely sure.
00:30:41.000 I see truth as a utility.
00:30:43.000 So there is a truth that's absolute.
00:30:45.000 No, it's instrumentalist.
00:30:46.000 But you just said it was absolute.
00:30:48.000 No, absolutely sure in the instrumentalist sense of the word truth.
00:30:51.000 This is a philosophical tradition that dates back hundreds of years, instrumentalism.
00:30:54.000 Yeah, which, of course, we don't subscribe to.
00:30:56.000 Obviously.
00:30:57.000 So, do you believe that murder is objectively wrong?
00:31:00.000 Epistemologically objective or ontologically objective?
00:31:03.000 Morally.
00:31:06.000 See, you didn't answer the question, but you.
00:31:08.000 Both, both epistemologically and ontologically.
00:31:10.000 But for the purpose of discussion, okay, so by what you mean, no, I don't think it's objective.
00:31:15.000 Was Hitler a bad person objectively?
00:31:18.000 No, if you mean by.
00:31:20.000 By the way, by the way.
00:31:21.000 Dude, dude, dude.
00:31:22.000 Wait, wait, wait.
00:31:24.000 Well, no, but he's being honest.
00:31:26.000 At its core, atheists cannot say that Hitler was a bad person.
00:31:29.000 Can I make the claim now?
00:31:31.000 Notice who here is relying on feelings and not facts.
00:31:34.000 Your argument is: I feel that Hitler was objective. 0.99
00:31:36.000 No, no, no, I know.
00:31:37.000 No, no, you feel that way.
00:31:38.000 Can you provide me evidence of how you know?
00:31:40.000 Can you provide me evidence that morality is objective?
00:31:42.000 No, of course I can.
00:31:44.000 Because, well, first of all, morality is both reason and revelation, and it's built within to us that murder is wrong.
00:31:50.000 Okay, where's your evidence of that?
00:31:52.000 Wait, wait, I'm so scared.
00:31:53.000 That's a claim, not evidence.
00:31:54.000 That's a claim.
00:31:55.000 Okay, we could spend multiple hours, but in the Western tradition.
00:31:59.000 So, notice how you're saying by tradition, by no standards.
00:32:03.000 These are not all claims of non-truth value.
00:32:05.000 Hold on, yes, they are.
00:32:06.000 We believe that truth was revealed to us.
00:32:08.000 We believe, claim by God.
00:32:10.000 Hold on, but let me get there.
00:32:12.000 You can keep on interrupting us.
00:32:13.000 Okay, keep on. 0.99
00:32:14.000 But let me prove to you how silly your viewpoint is and how self-evidently wrong. 0.99
00:32:19.000 Okay. 0.99
00:32:19.000 Is it objectively wrong to kids? 0.99
00:32:22.000 When you say objective, what I mean by objective, once again, once again, Dude, can I ask you something?
00:32:40.000 No, no, no.
00:32:41.000 What is how you still haven't given me dispositive evidence that morality is objective?
00:32:44.000 You're merely saying my answer is, I feel that way.
00:32:47.000 Sure, I feel that way.
00:32:48.000 No, no, that's all I can.
00:32:49.000 It's objectively wrong to the laws of nature.
00:32:52.000 What law of nature?
00:32:53.000 The self-evident nature of existence.
00:32:55.000 Where's your proof that it's self-evident?
00:32:56.000 Show me the logical proof that it's self-evident.
00:32:58.000 Okay, it's in your reason that God gave you in the consciousness of God.
00:33:01.000 Prove that God gave it to me.
00:33:02.000 Prove that God gave it to me.
00:33:03.000 But, again, your existence is proof of that.
00:33:07.000 Again, we can get back down to the first principles of this.
00:33:11.000 We can, but you don't want to because you know it doesn't look good.
00:33:14.000 No, it looks actually really good.
00:33:15.000 No, because you can't give evidence for it.
00:33:17.000 Built within, again, interrupting does not make you right.
00:33:20.000 But you keep repeating your point.
00:33:21.000 I get your point.
00:33:22.000 No, I don't.
00:33:22.000 So let me ask you a question in closing.
00:33:24.000 Since you can't objectively say that Hitler was bad or that child is wrong.
00:33:29.000 So how did the universe come into existence?
00:33:33.000 I don't know.
00:33:34.000 Okay, but science says that it was a big bang or a beginning point, right?
00:33:37.000 So using logic which you believe in is this the Kalam cosmological?
00:33:41.000 Well, hold on.
00:33:42.000 Again, you keep interrupting.
00:33:43.000 Using logic, if space, time, and matter had a starting point, then logically, shouldn't something outside of space, time, and matter have started those things.
00:33:53.000 How do you know that cause is personal?
00:33:54.000 How do you know that cause is worth praying to?
00:33:57.000 That's not the question.
00:33:58.000 Wait, wait.
00:33:58.000 Okay, sure, there is a cause.
00:33:59.000 Oh, that cause is God because it's outside of space, time, and matter.
00:34:02.000 No, no, no.
00:34:02.000 But you believe in different things about God.
00:34:04.000 You think that God is personal.
00:34:06.000 That's not what we're debating.
00:34:07.000 No, we are arguing about God.
00:34:09.000 We're arguing about worshiping God is the religion.
00:34:11.000 Hold on, no, no, no, we're not debating that.
00:34:12.000 We're debating whether or not there's a God or not.
00:34:14.000 No, the Christian God. 0.71
00:34:15.000 I said religion, that you're a religious person.
00:34:17.000 You're a Christian in nature.
00:34:18.000 You follow a religious tradition.
00:34:19.000 Calm down.
00:34:20.000 You said you're an atheist.
00:34:20.000 Wait, no, God, historically, Aquinas even defines it this way, is a personal God.
00:34:24.000 You still haven't gotten to me to prove that it's personal.
00:34:26.000 I'm happy to get to that.
00:34:28.000 Okay, then get to it.
00:34:29.000 Look, here's what I find with atheists: they don't want to worship or acknowledge God because many atheists think they are God.
00:34:36.000 And you embody that really well.
00:34:37.000 I didn't know you were a mind reader, Charlie.
00:34:39.000 This is news to me.
00:34:39.000 It's not a mind reader.
00:34:41.000 I can tell by your behavior.
00:34:42.000 I will say this.
00:34:43.000 I hope that you give your life to Jesus Christ.
00:34:45.000 I hope you do.
00:34:46.000 I hope you can find evidence.
00:34:48.000 I hope you can find evidence.
00:34:48.000 You know what's interesting?
00:34:49.000 There is evidence.
00:34:50.000 There is evidence that Jesus.
00:34:51.000 Hold on, last thing.
00:34:52.000 Do you believe Jesus Christ was a real historical figure?
00:34:55.000 Yes.
00:34:55.000 Do you believe that the gospels are historically accurate and we can prove them with archaeological evidence?
00:35:01.000 Some parts are, some parts are, some parts are metaphors, some parts are allegories, some parts are literal.
00:35:06.000 It depends, some parts are attempts at history.
00:35:09.000 It depends which book or gospel.
00:35:10.000 Using rational analysis, why would the disciples lie about the resurrection of Christ?
00:35:16.000 Okay, we can talk about this.
00:35:17.000 People, they can be mistakenly wrong about it.
00:35:19.000 So they would be mistakenly wrong up to the point where they get martyred?
00:35:23.000 The whole point of being mistakenly wrong about something is you believe it's true.
00:35:27.000 All the way up until the point of death.
00:35:28.000 The whole point of being mistakenly wrong about something is you believe that.
00:35:31.000 I just want to make sure I understand your position.
00:35:33.000 Position is that the 12 disciples who knew Christ best saw him die, and then they all believed a mistaken conspiracy for the rest of their life.
00:35:40.000 Yes, all of them together as a conspiracy.
00:35:43.000 Yes.
00:35:44.000 Yes.
00:35:45.000 There is no first-hound account from the 500.
00:35:47.000 The Gospels are all written by these people.
00:35:49.000 People have died for crazy claims in the past that we know aren't true.
00:35:52.000 These are all facts about his own.
00:35:53.000 That's not correct.
00:35:54.000 Okay, one of the gospels was written by one of his closest associates, Matthew the tax collector.
00:35:58.000 Luke was a fact fighter that was hired by the people.
00:36:01.000 No, I didn't say the Gospels weren't written by them.
00:36:02.000 I said there's no evidence from the 500 that he appeared to.
00:36:05.000 There's no firsthound accounts.
00:36:06.000 Again, that's not correct.
00:36:07.000 Thank you for your time.
00:36:07.000 We'll get to the next question.
00:36:08.000 Okay, you cannot answer.
00:36:09.000 We will pray for you.
00:36:10.000 Thank you.