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00:02:59.000Welcome to another episode of debate night.
00:03:02.000We're joined by founder of Turning Point USA, Charlie Kirk, and contributor for the Young Turks, Ben Carallo.
00:03:08.000Tonight's topic is Marxism in America.
00:03:21.000See, when it comes to Marxism, a lot of people have misunderstanding, think that it's about particular policies.
00:03:26.000But the reality is that it centers on the role of the state.
00:03:28.000The belief that the state is an institution that exists to suppress the interests of one class or another, right?
00:03:34.000Either under capitalism, that would be the dictatorship of capital, where capitalists suppress the interests of workers to the benefit of their profits.
00:03:42.000Now, under Marxism, the state serves the purpose of basically serving the interests of workers to the benefit of, you know, well, to the benefit of the workers, to suppress the interests of the capitalists.
00:03:52.000Because obviously, the very nature of capitalism is to lower wages, increase prices, and this has an inherent contradiction that basically squeezes the working class and it inevitably squeezes the capitalists themselves by leading to things like inflation and market crashes.
00:04:07.000So really, the central theory of Marxism is the belief in a state that works to serve the interests of the working class, to suppress the interests of capitalism, and eventually get to the point where the need of the state itself is irrelevant.
00:06:03.000A kulak is someone that owned a certain piece of land that was not allowed to own that same piece of land because of Lenin and Stalin's government.
00:06:08.000And if they owned more than it, what happened to them?
00:06:23.000Yeah, a forced labor camp, or it could be a forced death.
00:06:26.000I mean, like the forced labor camps we have in the United States of America, which, by the way, the United States has more people under forced labor than any other country.
00:07:32.000Now, we can obviously talk about mismanagement of famines, but if we're going to talk about mismanagement of famines, why don't we talk about the people in India that Winston Churchill killed?
00:08:42.000So somewhere around 10% of the people, right, that were in the gulags during their peak, which, by the way, was after a civil war in Russia, right, obviously with the white army that they had to deal with, right?
00:08:52.000And then the World War II with Nazi Germany, right, were political prisoners.
00:08:57.000But this is really interesting, right?
00:08:59.000I believe it was in the Gorbachev years, they tried to do a big reformation and granted a huge amount of amnesty, granted a huge amount of amnesty to like tons and tons of people that were in those gulags.
00:09:09.000And do you know what happened, Charlie?
00:10:40.000Well, it's very interesting that you bring that up because the truth of the matter is, if you look at the people, right, if you look at the de-Nazification of Western Europe, what you end up having is you have a lot of people, like, for example, right, like Nazi government officials that get put in charge of West Germany, right?
00:10:57.000Then you have Nazi officials that get put in charge of institutions like NATO.
00:11:01.000And then you have a lot of these Nazis that quite literally set up institutions who put out information.
00:11:13.000Literally, look at the first NATO commanders.
00:11:16.000They literally brought in people from Nazi Germany.
00:11:18.000Are we going to pretend that Operation Paperclip is not a thing that the United States did?
00:11:22.000Operation Paperclip was in conjunction with Operation Mockingbird, which was a CIA propaganda campaign, which I don't quite answer the question of the accuracy of gulags.
00:11:30.000Anyway, that's a little bit of futile.
00:11:32.000I'm just trying to understand, though, like maybe we're just on different planets here, quite honestly, because I've actually met countless thousands of people that were in these gulags and their stories and their first-hand perspectives, and they did nothing wrong to be put in there except had the different political viewpoints, or they were pastors.
00:11:53.000And then you embrace a political worldview that does that.
00:12:15.000So Radio Free Europe, Radio Free Europe did this really great interview session where they literally went to people that were in these gulags.
00:12:22.000And it was so funny because when Radio Free Europe puts out this video about, oh, these people who used to live in the gulags, they asked them, oh, what did you think about Stalin?
00:12:30.000And they basically said, because remember, right?
00:12:33.000You remember that the USSR was invaded by the Nazis, right?
00:12:44.000The Civil War was between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks because they couldn't determine what blend of communism they wanted after they overthrew the Romanov dynasty, right?
00:13:50.000What you're trying to do is indict the entire Western legal tradition and conflate it with the Leninist, Stalinist, we're going to kill half the population we don't like.
00:13:59.000Look, what you're trying to do is you're trying to take a country that had to deal with a civil war that had to deal with an invasion and compare that to the United States today.
00:14:27.000Look, free speech, religious liberty, and the Second Amendment.
00:14:30.000Our rights are being destroyed across the board.
00:14:32.000And look, many months ago, I told our team, I am sick of paying all this money to these cell phone providers that hate me and hate our values.
00:14:41.000So I said, go find that really cheerful guy.
00:14:44.000I think his name was Glenn at one of our events, and he kept on wearing the Patriot Mobile shirt.
00:14:51.000And I vetted Patriot Mobile head to toe, their business model, how they do things.
00:14:56.000And I was convinced that we must partner with them.
00:14:59.000They're not only America's only Christian conservative cell phone provider, they're one of the few companies fighting back.
00:15:03.000They offer the same nationwide coverage as the major carrier.
00:15:06.000So, you get the same great service plus the peace of mind, and your money is combating the left's attempt to silence you.
00:15:11.000Patriot Mobile has plans to fit any budget, and their 100% U.S.-based customer support team provides exceptional customer service.
00:15:19.000Patriot Mobile shares your values, and they support organizations fighting for religious liberty, constitutional rights, sanctity of life, like Turning Point USA, and veteran and first responder heroes.
00:15:29.000So, here's how it works: if you have a big major carrier, you are funding the bad guys.
00:15:34.000That money might as well be a Czech Democrat National Committee, or you could have it go to Patriot Mobile, where they give their proceeds back to Turning Point USA, veterans, and amazing groups.
00:16:44.000Like, so, first and foremost, we have obviously the brave Vietnam soldiers that defended themselves, defended themselves against the invading American army, which was basically there to punish them for daring to free themselves from French colonial rule.
00:17:25.000When did the Communist Party lose power in Vietnam?
00:17:27.000Hold on, they've industrialized their country, they've opened themselves up international trade, they actually have fair and free elections.
00:17:32.000Like, I'm not going to say Vietnam's a perfect country, but post-Viet Cong rule, their standard of living has increased.
00:17:41.000Maybe perhaps Ancient Orange had something to do with some of the struggles that he had.
00:17:44.000They think that maybe the sanctions from the United States of America cutting off supplies to food maybe have something to do with the people.
00:17:58.000Aside from the fact that China is the strongest economy in the world right now, there's obviously the fact that average wages in China have tripled over the past decade.
00:18:05.000So, before we go any further, do you really want to defend the Chinese Communist Party against me?
00:18:39.000We need to stop right here because, first and foremost, you pushed earlier the double genocide theory, which, by the way, Holocaust scholars have viewed.
00:18:50.000The double genocide theory is literally Nazi propaganda.
00:18:54.000The whole idea was to say that the obvious, okay, mismanagement of a famine.
00:18:59.000They're trying to equate that to the invasion and the mass murder committed by the Nazis.
00:19:04.000They're literally Nazis that intentionally pushed that theory.
00:19:07.000Why do you think that Israel to this very day actually has tensions with specific people in Ukraine who are pushing that double genocide theory?
00:19:16.000Because the truth is, a famine and the mismanagement of recently.
00:19:19.000I'm talking about in addition to mass graves, gulags, and all that.
00:19:47.000Aside from the fact that the central government has a 95% approval rating, which, by the way, before you're like, oh, but you're not going to be able to do it.
00:22:48.000The reality is there's different types of coronaviruses that are existing in the world that exist in the world, that aren't developed anywhere.
00:23:01.000There's no, like, you think that the American scientists that were working in that same lab right next to those Chinese scientists, you think that they were secretly malicious?
00:23:10.000No, no, you're putting words in my mouth.
00:23:46.000Sequencing, everything from how it's compiled, mRNA type technology.
00:23:49.000So according to the type of sequences.
00:23:51.000According to Anthony Fauci's own emails to Hugh Albatross on January 31st, on Friday evening, he said, quote, this has every single marker of a man-made laboratory-created virus.
00:24:00.000That's Anthony Fauci's own declassified emails, the CDC and the NIH.
00:24:03.000Not to mention the thousands of other scientists that have looked at the strain, and they say the way that the proteins are correlated, the way that this is put together.
00:24:28.000Yeah, well, so this is really interesting, right?
00:24:30.000See, because the type of virus that it is, right?
00:24:32.000Little RNA viruses, they recombine a lot.
00:24:35.000That's one of the really interesting things about these types of viruses.
00:24:37.000And so what happens is when you have a couple of different strains that infect the same species at a time, the way the virus reconstructs itself, which to be clear, we don't necessarily have a full understanding of how exactly that happens.
00:24:50.000But the reality is one of the central theories is this random assortment process where if you have multiple strains of a virus that is infecting one thing at a time, which is one of the reasons why bats in particular, because they're capable of being able to do that.
00:25:03.000Because they're capable of being a lot of people.
00:27:37.000You rarely see this kind of focus and commitment.
00:27:39.000They recently shared with me that they are doubling down and want to literally double their total number of happy customers in the next year.
00:27:47.000If you're struggling with back pain, neck pain, shoulder, hip, or knee pain, even general muscle aches and pain, then I'm suggesting you order their three-week quick start, still discounted, only $19.95.
00:28:24.000Obviously, through their democratic structure.
00:28:26.000Like the reality is, right, this is the thing, right?
00:28:29.000Obviously, going back to the role of the state to serve the interests of the working class to suppress the interests of capitalists, which is exactly why people like Charlie Kirk obviously are very unsettled with it.
00:28:38.000Because the reality is that in America, working class people have to worry about the government kicking down their door for doing things like smoking marijuana.
00:28:46.000But in China, it's not the working class people that have to worry about, you know, the government kicking down their doors.
00:28:52.000It's corrupt billionaires that have to worry about the government kicking down their doors.
00:28:55.000Just look, for example, giant tech companies making tons and tons of money in China with very little regulations.
00:29:02.000They put in tighter regulations on these tech companies, and then they take money from these tech billionaires, and then they give it to anti-poverty programs across the more rural parts of China in order to fund schools, food, things like that.
00:29:15.000Like, for example, China's this really, really great co-op development program, which is really, really great.
00:29:29.000No, it's because the reality is so different of the millions of people in China that are literally forcibly held in their homes, the millions in concentration camps, the people that can't even breathe because the air quality is so bad.
00:29:42.000How about the underground Christians that are murdered in the streets for trying to go to church?
00:29:46.000So, no, continue on your beautiful like co-op in Beijing.
00:29:50.000Like, yeah, we could grow vegetables in Shanghai, so it's so great.
00:29:58.000You're assuming that this is Shanghai.
00:30:00.000Obviously, Shanghai is like a giant urban city, right?
00:30:03.000The cooperative development, which is really cool, by the way, they're combining ecological restoration with these cooperative developments.
00:30:08.000So, and with the schools in there, they have a requirement that the schools buy a lot from the local farms, right?
00:30:13.00060% of the food, right, that they serve in the schools basically comes from local farms.
00:30:18.000So, if you're talking about meeting people's needs, right?
00:30:21.000The farmers there have a need for like, you know, economic development, right?
00:30:25.000So, if you buy from the schools, if you buy the food from those farmers, that puts money into their pockets, and then they literally take that food and give it back to the school kids so the school kids can have a full belly while they're trying to learn.
00:30:40.000Like, you got to understand, like, if you think China is so dystopian, how come the incarceration rate in the United States is so much higher than China?
00:30:48.000Well, because we have a rule of law and they kill dissidents that break the rule of law.
00:30:58.000What about, you mean, you mean the crony plot that basically bulldozed an entire town in Wisconsin, kicking people out of their homes for a factory that never happened.
00:31:21.000A Chinese Communist Party partnership sponsored by Xi Jinping himself and his entire regime.
00:31:26.000So when you go to China, let me just tell you, you'll drive down the street and you will see dead people laying in the middle of the street.
00:33:00.000Like this thing, the Associated Press fundamentally has like this right-wing bias, right?
00:33:04.000Like that's just ultimately the reality of the Associated Press.
00:33:08.000Because, right, like who, who are funding Western journalists?
00:33:12.000Where do Western journalists get money?
00:33:14.000Is it maybe through capitalist institutions that have, you know, like their own friends, right?
00:33:22.000Like, so let's think about this for a second.
00:33:24.000Let's think about this for a second, right?
00:33:26.000So they, Associated Press, actually goes and they write an article and they talk about it.
00:33:30.000Because the reality is we can have, if we want to live in the real world, we can have a conversation about whether or not China was going too heavy-handed in dealing with the East Turkmenistan movement, which is a terrorist movement.
00:33:41.000But a lot of Uyghur Muslims, even in Xinjiang, are happy that now they can finally drink alcohol without having to worry about bombing attacks and stabbing attacks.
00:33:49.000Now we can have a conversation about whether or not they were too heavy-handed, about whether or not they're racially profiling.
00:33:56.000The propaganda is in the reality of the world.
00:33:57.000Let's have a conversation about concentration camps.
00:34:00.000Like, you know, maybe we shouldn't be forcing them to eat pork against their religious conscience.
00:34:04.000You know, murdering a lot of them is probably wrong.
00:34:06.000There's really not a conversation to be had.
00:36:23.000Yeah, you're not familiar because you just keep on spouting out these things that call people Nazis, which is super unhelpful and not true.
00:36:28.000And so, yeah, Antonio Gramsci from prison said that Marxists must adopt a cultural framework alongside an economic framework in order to get the means of what they want to get done.
00:37:27.000Cultural Marxism is developing a cultural framework of deconstructionism or postmodernism to try to break ourselves from the shackles of the Western tradition so that we can embrace the nonsensical economic ideas that you believe in.
00:37:38.000That's not a conspiracy theory, it's reality.
00:37:40.000And it was written by Gramsci himself.
00:37:42.000And if you're not familiar with those writings, well, then you're not really equipped to talk about cultural Marxism.
00:37:47.000You just keep on like, conspiracy theory.
00:38:10.000Why don't I live in a Marxist country?
00:38:11.000Well, I mean, aside from the fact that I was born here and I would like the United States to be a better place, the reality is, like, when it comes to overcoming oppression, I mean, just look at, once again, Vietnam, right?
00:38:45.000Because the truth of the matter is their economy, like, so first and foremost, they were like, obviously, Imperial Japan was occupying Korea.
00:38:54.000Then you have the socialists that liberate Korea from Imperial Japan.
00:38:59.000Then you have all of these powers coming in in the middle of Korea at the end of World War II and ended up splicing it up.
00:39:07.000So the reality is, one of the reasons why we invaded Korea is because we were deeply upset that anybody anywhere in the world would be socialist.
00:39:15.000Because do you think Korea is going to like invade the United States?
00:40:03.000The young lady whose father was murdered, she was sold into sex slavery, barely escaped to China, came to America to tell us what's really going on in North Korea?
00:41:17.000Because they murder their own citizens and re-educate them.
00:41:20.000Or maybe because the United States is not...
00:41:21.000Because they have gulags all across North Korea.
00:41:23.000Maybe it's because the United States has gone out of its way to make sure that every country that we deal with isn't allowed to trade with the people.
00:43:47.000His advocacy against apartheid was great, but his economic views were terrible.
00:43:50.000There's actually a really great religious philosophy.
00:43:52.000I don't know if you're familiar with liberation theology, for example.
00:43:55.000Actually, one of the reasons why the CIA went into places like El Salvador to murder people was because liberation theology was so popular, right?
00:44:05.000Basically the idea that like under Christianity, right?
00:44:08.000Like, you know, Jesus was sort of the God who riots, right?
00:44:13.000Who goes out of his way basically to stand up for people who are oppressed, goes out of his way to stand up for people who are marginalized, right?
00:44:20.000He literally said the meek shall inherit the earth.
00:44:22.000In fact, the only people that Jesus ever said wouldn't go to heaven were rich people.
00:44:57.000See, what Marx meant by that was that, you know, religion plays a very critical cultural role in alleviating pain and suffering that marginalized people feel, which is very understandable, right?
00:45:06.000Like if you're struggling in a very difficult world, like obviously turning to religion, believing that there's a higher power, believing that even in your difficult circumstances, that if you work hard and you be the best person you can be, there's going to be an afterlife waiting for you where you'll be able to live in peace, right?
00:45:23.000Like none of that is contradictory to capitalism, but it is about the reality, or none of that is contradictory to Marxism.
00:45:29.000But it's central to this reality is the idea that so many people, they only have religion as an outlet for self-expression because capitalism forces people into such brutal conditions.
00:45:42.000Capitalism forces people into what conditions?
00:46:24.000The point is that it wasn't because of the brilliance of Xi Jinping.
00:46:27.000It was because of the treachery and their ability to exploit their own citizens as pseudo-slaves to go make a bunch of plastic and fentanyl and bring it back into the West.
00:46:46.000Then who's sending vaccines all over the world?
00:46:49.000Pfizer, AstraZeneca, Johnson, and Johnson and Madurai.
00:46:52.000Really, because the United States is sending that many vaccines.
00:46:55.000I hope we don't send that many vaccines, but I mean, like, okay, literally last year, China was half of all the vaccines that they made around the world.
00:47:03.000They were sending to other countries, like half of all the vaccines that they made.
00:47:06.000There's a lot of people that are vaccinated today, specifically because of the hard work and dedication of people in China.
00:47:37.000I think we would all basically do anything for our families.
00:47:40.000And that is both what makes us so capable of goodness and kindness, but it's also what makes us so capable of vicious evil.
00:47:47.000Because the reality is, if we thought that people were threatening our families, we would do a lot of terrible things, right?
00:47:52.000But if we work together with other people and other families and we extend our minds to understand that we have a shared sort of societal experience, then we're going to do a lot of good things for each other.
00:48:02.000So ultimately, when it comes to whether or not human beings are good or evil, we're just naturally social.
00:48:07.000We want to fit in and be part of a society.
00:48:10.000So ultimately, it really depends on the way society is structured that determines whether or not we end up being good or evil.
00:48:17.000But it is all basically from us being pro-social.
00:48:21.000So why is it that every civilization encounters the same problems then, regardless of its circumstances?
00:48:30.000From the Aztecs to the Incans to the Mayans to the Egyptians, the Indus River Valley, to the Chinese Empire, the British Empire, Till the Hun, to Genghis Khan, to Julius Caesar, to the Greek or Roman Empire, they all go through the same sort of cycle.
00:48:42.000Where they start to allocate power to a lesser and lesser group of people.
00:48:45.000They start to then create a pseudo-dictatorship under the false promises of empowering people.
00:48:51.000And then the cycle of selfishness, murder, strife, division, famine continues to an end.
00:48:58.000And the only thing that ever broke that cycle was the West.
00:49:38.000Hamilton, Madison, and Jay went through private musings of why they wrote the Constitution.
00:49:42.000And do you think they didn't care what Benjamin Franklin would say?
00:49:46.000So I want to make sure I understand this right.
00:49:48.000So the Iroquois Confederacy, you think, is where we got separations of power, separated powers, consent of the governed, independent judiciary, and consent to the governed.
00:49:55.000Not the pilgrim colonies or the Bible or the Mayflower Compact or the Magna Carta or the writings of Augustin Aquinas, Hume, Burke, Locke.
00:50:04.000None of the people were alive at the time.
00:50:06.000John Locke, look, where do you think these people said that they got their ideas?
00:50:10.000Like, the reality is, why do you think the Enlightenment came after all of these colonizers started visiting people in North America?
00:50:16.000Oh, so you believe in this weird, unfounded mystical belief that we stole it.
00:50:21.000This is actually a very standard understanding of world history.
00:50:25.000If you have even a marginalized advantage.
00:50:27.000So you think that John Locke stole from indigenous people?
00:52:56.000George Washington said, it's not a question of if.
00:52:59.000It's a matter of when we abolish slavery.
00:53:01.000Thomas Jefferson admonished King George in the original draft of the Declaration of Independence.
00:53:04.000That means very much saying that slavery is a great evil that we blame King George for Thomas Jefferson abolished slave trade into a world for telling them they couldn't keep killing indigenous folks.
00:53:14.000Thomas Jefferson said very clearly in the Virginia House of Commons in 1790 that we must abolish slavery.
00:53:21.000He abolished the importation of new slaves as one of his first act of president in March of 1807.
00:53:25.000The founding fathers fought tooth and nail to abolish slavery.
00:53:29.000So you have a misrepresented and intentional pile of his argument to try to misrepresent the great heroes of the founding fathers.
00:53:36.000When they banned the inspired slaves, what happened?
00:53:39.000What ended up happening was the slave trade went down.
00:53:41.000Eli Whitney creates the cotton gin and a whole new debate of slavery gets reignited.
00:53:44.000Nazi, that's actually not true, right?
00:53:46.000The reality is, do you know what happened?
00:53:47.000The slave trade, I guess, went down if you're talking about international trade.
00:53:50.000The United States set up literal farms where human beings were bred.
00:54:23.000It began to end in 1777, a process of decoupling from an ancestral evil where we have more people in the world right now that are slaves today than back then.
00:54:32.000The process began, 1820s, the debate reignites because of John C. Calhoun, the creation of the cotton gin.
00:55:23.000Ben, we'll hear your closing remarks now.
00:55:27.000Yeah, fundamentally, at the end of the day, the state can work to suppress the interests of capitalists or it can work to suppress the interests of the workers.
00:55:35.000In the United States of America today, it is clearly suppressing the interests of workers.
00:55:39.000Just look at the difficulty that people have in terms of forming labor unions, demanding higher wages, even getting access to basic health care that even other capitalist countries have, right?
00:55:49.000Then you have a lot of countries that have been the victims of colonialism that have states that serve the interests of the working class people.
00:55:55.000And while they have a very difficult starting point, the reality is they are surpassing the United States now in a timeframe that is rapidly outpacing the development that happened in the United States.
00:56:05.000So ultimately, the reality is we can choose for the government to serve the interests of the very rich few, or we can have a government that serves average working-class folks.
00:56:20.000But once again, we have to ask the nature of the state.
00:56:22.000But then, why would you want to make that government bigger?
00:56:25.000No, It's not about making the government bigger.
00:56:27.000It's about changing the fundamental structure of the government so it serves the interests of workers instead of the interests of capital.
00:56:33.000And in fact, this is one of the things that, like the fundamental dishonesties that I think come from people like you.
00:56:38.000You point to a capitalist government, say, look, it's not working for workers.
00:56:41.000We should have less government and give capitalists more power.
00:56:43.000But the reality is, right, and this is the fundamental reality, that it's the nature of the government that is the problem.
00:56:49.000You're unwilling to admit the very fact that our government is fundamentally serving the interests of capital as opposed to serving the interests of the workers.
00:56:57.000And that if we were to flip the system on its head, it would work a lot better.
00:57:42.000In Venezuela, you're just banking on not knowing about millions of people that would do anything to leave these disastrous experiments.
00:57:50.000And I have met far too many victims of communism to take any of your arguments seriously.
00:57:56.000People that have the wounds to show it.
00:58:01.000The pastors that were in jail for decades in the Soviet Union for doing nothing.
00:58:04.000Like the plantation owners that had their plantations stolen.
00:58:07.000People like Alexander Schultz Social Nitsyn that wrote about it endlessly.
00:58:11.000The Cubans in Miami that had to build life rafts to save their own lives because of the oppressive Castro regime.
00:58:17.000The people for Venezuela in Cuba and Argentina.
00:58:20.000I'm going to trust them a lot more than a smug, sanctimonious person with a super bizarre laugh that read a couple things online that sound good.