In this episode of The Charlie Kirk Show, host Charlie Kirk debates a group of college students in Oxford, England about birthright citizenship and the 14th Amendment. Charlie is the founder and President of Turning Point USA, a prominent conservative youth organization with the presence of over 2,000 high school and college campuses across the U.S. He served as the Chairman of Students for Trump, which focused on mobilizing young voters during the 2020 presidential election. He is also the host of the podcast, and maintains a social media presence with high levels of engagement across all platforms.
00:00:39.000He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
00:00:46.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:00:58.000Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
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00:01:23.000Charlie Kirk is the founder and president of Turning Point USA, a prominent conservative youth organization with the presence of over 2,000 high school and college campuses across the United States.
00:01:33.000He served as the chairman of Students for Trump, which focused on mobilizing young voters during the 2020 presidential election.
00:01:40.000Kirk is the host of the podcast, The Charlie Kirk Show, and maintains a social media presence following with high levels of engagement across all platforms.
00:01:48.000So please welcome me for introducing Charlie Kirk.
00:02:13.000So some of my first questions are regarding immigration.
00:02:16.000So you've argued the 14th Amendment has been misapplied to undocumented immigrants.
00:02:24.000And if so, you oppose birthright citizenship.
00:02:27.000And if you do oppose birthright citizenship, what alternative system would you propose for determining who is automatically a citizen, and how would you address the risk of creating a legally precarious or stateless class of U.S.-born children?
00:03:03.000It was one of the post-Civil War amendments.
00:03:05.000It's been used to apply for a lot of different things.
00:03:09.000One of the ways that it's been debated is this idea of birthright citizenship.
00:03:12.000So birthright citizenship is that No reservations, no, you know, asterisk, nothing at all whatsoever.
00:03:28.000So that is what's called birthright citizenship.
00:03:31.000Most of the rest of the world doesn't have it.
00:03:32.000I don't even think you guys have it here in Britain where you could just come into the country and have a baby and you get a passport and you become a full citizen.
00:03:39.000So the question is, does the 14th Amendment apply to the children of non-citizens?
00:03:45.000Well, the Supreme Court ruled in the late 1890s in what's called the Wong case.
00:03:49.000That it does apply to the children of permanent residents.
00:03:53.000And well, since 1890, I think it was 1898 or something similar to that, it has not yet been decided or adjudicated whether or not illegal immigrants or non-American, non-permanent resident, non-U.S.
00:04:06.000passport, non-green card holders and their children can get birthright citizenship.
00:04:10.000I think that we should join the rest of the world, including your country, and not give just full U.S. citizenship for people that come on birth tourism to the United States.
00:04:37.000There should be no replacement, meaning that if you want to come to the United States of America, apply like everybody else and get in line, and you don't get to show up pregnant and have a child, and that child becomes a full US citizen.
00:04:47.000So in terms of situations where, like, the parent has been an undocumented immigrant for a couple of years or decades at this point, and they're having children, where does that leave the children?
00:04:57.000Do we then create, like, a state of, like, basically people who don't have kind of, like, documentation?
00:05:17.000But it's quite a concept that you're not allowed to come into a country unless you're invited.
00:05:21.000And so we in the United States just won a popular vote election, a popular vote majority and electoral vote majority under the idea that we want mass deportations.
00:05:31.000So if you are in our country illegally, the United States, it is our plan to return you back to your country of origin as a full family unit.
00:05:39.000And then talking about kind of the idea of mass deportation and We've seen recently that he's been expediting the refugee applications of white South Africans, claiming they are victims of racial discrimination.
00:05:53.000Considering what you've just said about kind of mass deportation being the few, what do you think justifies the embrace of white South African immigrants and their temporary legal protections that Trump is granting them?
00:06:05.000Well, for one, one of the leading political parties in South Africa is saying that we should kill the boar.
00:06:10.000Over and over again in an endorsed chant from the top leaders in a political rally saying that we should go kill the white South African farmer.
00:06:18.000You can look at videos of crosses that will fill roads for miles of white South African farmers that have been brutally murdered in their home basically because of what is called land reparations at worst.
00:06:31.000So this is at best, and then there's another word that we could use for it, which we'll see if it actually qualifies for that as time goes on.
00:06:38.000But yes, I mean, this is a group where a government has decided that we are endorsing the worst and most venomous form of racial hatred against white South African landowners, and they're fleeing appropriate asylum with the United States.
00:06:54.000Hilariously, it's only been like 25 people that have received this asylum.
00:06:58.000And the American leaders have been completely okay with every other type of person on the planet to be granted asylum.
00:07:04.000Like 15 million people, they want to grant asylum.
00:07:07.000But when 15 white South Africans want to show up to the United States and have asylum because there's actually an endorsed mantra and chant to kill them, all of a sudden there's a major issue.
00:07:21.000So then, considering that, so if it applies to, for example, Nigerian Christians being killed in Nigeria and other kind of like world atrocities we're seeing across the world where people are in a vulnerable position, you would agree then that they also should have their applications?
00:07:36.000And if one of the leading political parties in Nigeria, whether it be the Muslim or the Christian faction, was outwardly saying we must kill the Muslims or we must kill the Christians, we're a very generous country.
00:07:45.000We're willing to look at all the cases associated.
00:07:48.000I happen to know the South African one.
00:07:50.000I mean, Nigeria is the most populated country in Africa, so it's not unreasonable that something like this could happen.
00:07:57.000But the United States of America is a generous country.
00:07:59.000We've been known when it meets the criteria that we are a place that you can find safe refuge.
00:08:05.000The problem is our asylum process has become a scam the last 15 years where people from countries just that have high crime rates are able to say that I am fleeing violence to come to the United States of America.
00:08:33.000Moving on slightly to a different topic, which is abortion.
00:08:38.000Currently there is a woman who has been declared brain dead in Georgia and is being kept on life support because of the state's restrictive abortion laws that ban abortion after cardiac activity is detected, generally at six weeks.
00:08:49.000So I want to basically ask you, A, your thoughts on that and how you think the pro-life arguments apply.
00:09:24.000Is it a pregnancy-induced ailment, or is it unrelated?
00:09:28.000Separately ill, but the idea is she's completely brain-dead, so basically the only thing that's keeping her alive is this machine because of the baby, due to restrictive abortion laws.
00:09:38.000Yes, I mean, that baby is going to be able to live, praise God.
00:09:41.000And that mom will now, her parting life, I think that's beautiful.
00:09:49.000Unless there's an element of the case I'm missing, like she has pregnancy-induced sepsis or there's something related to the case that I'm not aware of, because I do believe in the exception for the life of the mother, but that doesn't sound like that's what this case is.
00:09:59.000So, to be clear, the mother is dead, and she's being kept alive.
00:11:27.000In this extreme case, though, which is a moral question of if you terminate the mom, The baby dies.
00:11:34.000If you can keep the mom, quote unquote, alive long enough, another life enters the world.
00:11:39.000That is a morally great thing for humanity to be able to say another life comes into the world when someone who is brain dead would otherwise have no contribution to the species.
00:11:48.000But what if this continues when we see more restrictive abortion laws in different states?
00:11:53.000This case that you're saying actually proves my point that she doesn't have agency, she doesn't have consciousness, so we should yield on the side of the protection of the human being in utero.
00:12:15.000Okay, so in the exception of the life of the mother, you agree that that should be...
00:12:19.000But in this case where we basically have these women being vessels as brain-dead individuals and we're continuing to carry these pregnancies to full term...
00:12:32.000She doesn't want to be carried as a vessel.
00:12:34.000I guess the question I would pose to you or anybody else, what is the moral difference between the baby and the woman her?
00:12:48.000Under what moral standard is okay to eliminate being smaller than you or because that you've been developed more?
00:12:53.000In fact, we should, as humanity say, under this very extreme case, and thank you for bringing it to my attention, I'm actually going to talk about it, because it might be used as a way to put us on defense, but in some ways, it shows that we value both human beings.
00:13:07.000that that mom who might not have nothing else to give, again, the last thing that her body can actually do is to have another life, her offspring, enter into the world.
00:13:17.000And of course I would defend that because every human life, Okay.
00:13:28.000So some other abortion related questions, kind of like touching on what you said, you've kind of talked about obviously the safety of the mother being like the only kind of like bar in which you think abortion should.
00:14:39.000I think it's very clear when they've been perceived in very, very horrific situations.
00:14:42.000The mother specifically as well is obviously in terms of mentally the impact they have on her that still the mother has to raise that baby all the way to 18 years old.
00:14:51.000And if you think that abortion is just a medical procedure or cosmetic type intervention, no different than getting plastic surgery, Women have regrets after abortion.
00:15:02.000Again, the question is, do we defend human life universally as a statement?
00:15:07.000And if the question is, I'm going to just kind of, well, I can eliminate the smaller life because I have regret of a sexual encounter I had, then I find a great question with that.
00:15:16.000On the rape thing, though, to your point, it is the hardest thing that we have to defend on its surface.
00:15:23.000Rapists should be castrated and put in life for jail the rest of their life.
00:15:28.000The more important fundamental question is, under what moral standard is it okay to do something evil after an evil act when a life is eliminated?
00:15:37.000One of the most powerful things I get to do is go down college campuses, and all the time I meet young kids that were babies, that were scheduled for abortions, that were conceived in rape, and they are full citizens of America that are flourishing and doing amazing things.
00:15:51.000And I believe that we should get back to this idea that all human beings are equal regardless of how you entered the world.
00:16:00.000Then considering, obviously, you've talked about how we need more abortion restrictions, but we're also seeing low birth rates in America and also in the West as a whole.
00:16:07.000How do you think they interact with each other and do you think they're related?
00:16:10.000I'm sorry, just to make sure I'm hearing the question.
00:16:31.000About 200,000 new babies net over the last 18 months in Texas versus the years prior.
00:16:36.000And so, yeah, I mean, in the UK and America, we wouldn't need as many third world immigrants if we didn't kill our babies all the time in the womb.
00:17:37.000My more general point is very much content that's being produced right now regarding men, Something we've seen, at least in the UK, was the show Adolescents came out recently.
00:17:58.000Which was a complete fiction, by the way.
00:18:03.000Talking about the kind of the way media interacted.
00:18:06.000I mean, it's a mythology no different than Lord of the Rings.
00:18:23.000I mean, if they would have talked about how it was like a third world Arab young kid radicalized by Islam and then started to decide to go stab somebody, then they would have gotten more correct in that Netflix special.
00:18:31.000But yes, the point that I think, and by the way, this kind of scold, not you, you've been great, but like that ridiculous, the head of the conservative party being scolded.
00:20:18.000Just another follow-up question on that in terms of Red Pill Media, specifically stuff like Andrew Tate's content, which I think is probably on the edge and kind of the fringe of it.
00:20:26.000What are your thoughts then in terms of when it kind of pushes the limits?
00:21:03.000They need something that elevates them above their primitive state of just indulging the flesh.
00:21:09.000And that means an entire society that knows that young men need other men To communicate to them in a way that is not that you're the worst, most awful thing ever because we see the men of the West checking out.
00:21:21.000And I would love during our Q&A portion if somebody thinks that's a good thing or a bad thing.
00:21:26.000And if you think it's a good thing, at least you are morally consistent.
00:21:29.000If you think that the men of a society checking out is a good thing, well, you are getting your goal because that is what is happening.
00:21:35.000We have like this generation that has completely disappeared of young men, particularly in my country, in the middle parts of America.
00:21:43.000I don't know if the same trends are here in the UK, but I do know that it is intercontinental, this trend.
00:21:48.000We see it across Europe and across the UK of this hyper fixation on feminism and female empowerment, while also not acknowledging that strong men built the West and won the wars and built the building that we're in right now.
00:22:01.000And without strong men, then you all of a sudden see civilization unfold upon itself.
00:22:05.000And we're seeing that happen in real time.
00:22:29.000But the parts about deconstructing the administrative state, there's an entire chapter of Project 2025 that our former president, who wasn't even president, he was brain-dead, And you all know it's true.
00:22:40.000And the media covered up for it, and they lied about it, and they smeared all of us that acknowledged it and knew it.
00:22:44.000He did not even know the year he got elected.
00:22:47.000You can go listen to the Robert Hur tapes, and the leader of the United States of America did not know the year that he got elected.
00:22:53.000And an aide had to insert, be like, no, sir, you were actually elected in this year, not that year.
00:22:56.000He didn't know the year that he left office as vice president.
00:22:59.000He thought that his son died in combat, not of cancer.
00:23:03.000In an official testimony to the United States government about a criminal investigation, so we had an administrative state running our government.
00:23:09.000So about Project 2025, Joe Biden and the Democrats and some very weak Republicans told us the border is a problem that cannot be solved.
00:23:17.000You just have to get used to the fact that two and a half million people come into your country every single year.
00:24:29.000Partly in his book, Dreams from My Father, which I encourage you to read, was that he thought that he would bring forth a great awokening and a reconfiguration of America.
00:24:39.000And he thought that Hillary Clinton was like an automatic to become president.
00:24:43.000They thought they were going to stack the Supreme Court with three new Supreme Court justices.
00:24:47.000And his revolution never actually hit its final mark.
00:24:51.000Instead, President Donald Trump won in 2016.
00:25:16.000I'm not an automatic hate Obama guy, but you must just be factual.
00:25:19.000His vision, what he wanted to do for America, has failed.
00:25:22.000It's failed in the popular vote majority.
00:25:24.000It's failed in our public opinion polls.
00:25:25.000Young people, which used to be Obama's greatest constituency, college campuses were all on fire for Obama.
00:25:31.000Well, young people actually moved the most towards Donald Trump this last election, and President Donald Trump won the youth vote in Michigan and several other battleground states.
00:25:38.000As far as DEI, my stance on it, I'm very much against it.
00:25:47.000Can you elaborate more why you think it's in an edit?
00:25:49.000Yeah, I mean, so again, so DEI is a...
00:25:56.000So affirmative action is an extension of DEI, and they're kind of like cousins to each other.
00:26:07.000There's affirmative action, which is most definitely in practice, if you will.
00:26:12.000And then there's disparate impact theory, which has been the predominant legal theory in the United States to justify the U.S. Civil Rights Act.
00:26:22.000And then there is diversity, equity, inclusion, which I think the best example of DEI can be how it's kind of taken over the corporate workforce.
00:26:31.000There's two ways I could look into it.
00:26:32.000Number one, DEI demands that you must hire these new ridiculous diversity departments for no reason whatsoever that weigh down costs that are basically speech police internally of our major companies that make it a less desirable place to work and honestly less productive and less likely for us to be able to compete against the Chinese communists.
00:26:51.000So I could talk and I can give you examples on that if you'd like.
00:26:53.000The other part of this, though, is that you could insert, I don't know how deep you want me to go into this, but fundamentally DEI is about race quotas in America.
00:27:18.000And if you aim at anything other than excellence or meritocracy as a company, then you will compromise those things.
00:27:24.000If all of a sudden you want to be equitable, well, maybe that company will not be that good anymore.
00:27:28.000And we see the slippage of our excellence here in the West, where if we get away from excellence and meritocratic type undergirding philosophy and towards other type substructures, I think it's a remarkably dangerous proposition.
00:28:57.000Look, we're talking about this, I'm sure, in the Q&A.
00:29:00.000Always look at the end result with Trump because the process can sometimes drive people mad and a little crazy and the up and down.
00:29:05.000But like in the first term, everyone was very critical of his Middle East policy.
00:29:09.000And then we got the Abraham Accords, which was an incredible accomplishment of peace between Israel and the Emiratis and the Saudis.
00:29:15.000and so there's a process that you have to allow unfold here.
00:29:19.000As far as the tariffs, You guys got actually a pretty good deal out of this.
00:29:25.000President Trump was generous enough to actually exempt Rolls-Royce and some of your major manufacturing in the latest bilateral trade deal with the United States.
00:29:33.000And I want to see our two countries grow closer together.
00:29:35.000And I think the president has the same wish.
00:29:37.000But as all the tariffs are eventually pointing at what we should, and this is the question for Europe, and this is the question for the United Kingdom.
00:29:44.000Will Europe and the United Kingdom decide to embrace the West?
00:29:47.000Will it look very, very far to the east?
00:29:50.000The rising power struggle in front of us is all the things we've talked about, but it really is the Chinese Communist Party versus Western values.
00:29:59.000The Chinese Communist Party is antithetical to even those of you that are liberal in this audience right now.
00:30:04.000It's antithetical to what you believe and how you believe it.
00:30:07.000The CCP is the greatest threat to so many of these different things on the planet.
00:30:11.000And as it is this rising power, we have to reckon with this question.
00:31:44.000Just for you following, it was 180% tariffs and now it's at 30% tariffs.
00:31:49.000I can say that tariffs will remain on critical manufacturing for American, critical American goods.
00:31:54.000Now, if it's car seats, Rare earth minerals, very critical.
00:32:03.000Every single one of the smartphones in your pocket requires a combination of rare earth minerals, most of which are mined and sourced in Chinese Communist Party, China.
00:32:10.000Not because we don't have them in the West, but because all my friends that I'm sure I'll get a question from, you wonderful environmentalists, don't let us actually use our own rare earth minerals, but hey, somehow it's a different planet in China, so it's okay if they pollute, but not if we pollute, but if we import it, then, you know, we feel good about ourselves.
00:32:25.000So essentially, the phones, almost everything we have in the West has some Chinese component to it.
00:32:43.000And I hope that we can bring back that not just manufacturing base, because people think, like, what, are you just going to make, you know, T-shirts and textiles?
00:32:50.000Well, yeah, that's part of it, but it's a lot deeper.
00:32:52.000There is an advanced manufacturing opening that's going to happen in the West right now around robotics and around drones.
00:32:59.000There will be a global supply of drones in the hundreds of millions in the coming decade.
00:33:04.000Drones are actually really, really hard to build when they're sophisticated.
00:33:11.000And so all of a sudden, if we're going to be comfortable with like a country that doesn't share our values, that is at best an adversary at worst than enemy, is going to all of a sudden control the stuff that's going to define the future.
00:33:24.000You've characterized the Democratic Party as antagonistic to American ideals and argue that the Republican Party falls short of opposing the agenda.
00:33:33.000As someone who identifies as a conservative, how do you define the conservative movement today?
00:33:37.000And how do you think it should evolve to engage with the next generation?
00:33:59.000I mean, we stand for what has worked, what is good, what is true, what is beautiful.
00:34:02.000We want to have the We want to see church attendance go up.
00:34:06.000We want to see suicide rates take a 180-degree pivot.
00:34:10.000In our country, at least, we have the younger generation is the most suicidal, the most anxious, the most antidepressant, addicted generation in history, and yet they're the most wealthy and the most prosperous.
00:34:21.000So for anyone that just thinks that material conditions alone dictate happiness or well-being, the West is a flaming indictment of that claim.
00:35:25.000And as Tom Holland, I know he went to Cambridge, but you've got to indulge me for a second.
00:35:28.000As Tom Holland would say in his book, Dominion, that whether you realize it or not, whether you're a secular, atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, or Christian, if you live in the West, you are inheritor of a Christian tradition.
00:35:38.000The way we look at things, honor your neighbor, help the poor, charity, natural rights, these are somewhat weird ideas when you actually think about it.
00:35:45.000And instead of us trying to make a manufactured counterfeit new morality, we should go back to our Christian roots.
00:35:52.000A more personal question on the idea of like Christian Newton, you being a very devout Christian.
00:35:57.000I remember speaking to your assistant during the vacation and he's saying you don't respond on a Sunday because you participate in Saturday.
00:36:28.000It's called Stop in the Name of God, Why Honoring the Sabbath Will Change the World, basically.
00:36:32.000And it is an argument that in this hyper-materialistic, very fast, digitally frenzied world, that there is this gift that I believe the Lord gave the Hebrews that we have decided to just gloss over.
00:37:29.000And we're going to be able to solve this with quantum mechanics and quantum computing.
00:37:33.000And I'm kind of like, honestly, something was told to us on Sinai that we shouldn't forget.
00:37:38.000That, like, you shouldn't work for seven days.
00:37:39.000In the retelling of the Ten Commandments in the book of Deuteronomy, the only difference of the retelling of the Ten Commandments is when Moses says, hey, you shouldn't work seven days because you're no longer a slave.
00:37:51.000What Moses is saying is, like, only slaves work for seven days, actually.
00:37:54.000And we in the West have kind of been slaves to our work.
00:37:56.000And I say this as a free market capitalist.
00:39:08.000No group is going to act in a, you know, in a directionally consistent way.
00:39:13.000But look, I think that it's, at least in my country, I don't know if you guys are seeing a similar rise in the United Kingdom, but I think that there is this temptation to say that all the world's suffering is because of a small group of people, many of whom I have not met.
00:39:49.000So Jews are, you know, is a very complicated thing because it's a people, but it's also a religion, and it's an ancestry, but it's a culture.
00:39:57.000Almost nothing like it in the world, right?
00:39:59.000Where you're kind of born into it and you can be like an atheistic Jew, but there's also like a religious text.
00:40:03.000And then there is Israel, which I believe is fundamental to Judaism.
00:40:07.000God tore Israel is the informal like trinity of Judaism.
00:40:22.000But I actually think we could de-escalate.
00:40:24.000A lot of the finger-pointing around this issue, if we look at it through that lens, that anyone who says, like, oh, we're going to blame the Jews, well, then that's the first, like, no one here rationally, I think, if you believe that, then we could talk about it.
00:40:37.000But then if you're like, well, I don't think Israel should exist, or I don't like Israel, okay, that's another step, but that's a more reasonable argument, one I wouldn't share.
00:40:44.000But then if you're criticizing the Israeli government, so where I think a problem emerges is where my side, where I am pro-Israel, we conflate those three things, and we immediately say, That you're against Netanyahu, therefore you're against the Jews.
00:40:57.000I'm sorry, I think that's immature, it's sloppy, and it actually creates more resentment where it otherwise would not exist.
00:41:05.000On the state of Israel in terms of its existence.
00:41:09.000I was going to leave it to the Q&A, but we started.
00:41:13.000Just a question, your belief in the state of Israel existing in its current form, is it biblical or is it just a political belief?
00:41:20.000Okay, so you asked, is it biblical or what?
00:41:23.000So is your belief on the current state of Israel, where it is and how it's formed, is that belief biblical?
00:41:30.000I'm not a theologian, but I am definitely more, let's say, aligned with a view of Ezekiel 36, that there is a reconstitution of the state of Israel, and that was prophesied.
00:41:42.000I will bring you from across the lands and graft you together.
00:41:46.000Again, if you guys want to talk about end times theology, I'm honestly going to be like, let's get a more important question because I don't know it that well.
00:42:30.000it is a miracle considering they were attacked from every direction, from its charter, completely under attack, and totally brutalized.
00:42:37.000Number two, it's interesting because in the Balfour Declaration, as you will know, it actually was the smallest suggested size for Israel as of all the four plans.
00:42:46.000All that to say, what do I believe about the current composition of the state of Israel?
00:42:51.000My historical analysis of whether it should be formed or not, I actually think it should be, is not that relevant.
00:42:57.000The more important moral question is what do you think about what is happening right now?
00:43:01.000Do you think that Israel has, I don't like the, I think it's a little bit of a cop out.
00:43:09.000I think more importantly, do you believe that a country has a right to be able to defend itself into existence?
00:44:00.000But then in terms of the question of being pro-Israel and the right of Israel to exist, when Palestine very much exists and they're fighting for their own self-determination, how do you reconcile both?
00:44:14.000I think what some well-meaning Arabs are doing in the West Bank is righteous.
00:44:19.000What Hamas did on October 7th was not a fight for self-determination.
00:44:23.000I would find great exception to that claim.
00:44:27.0001,300 people going in on a holy day on Shema Torah, 50 days after the Six-Day War on Shabbat, to go to kibbutzes and a music festival to kill 1,300 people and take 200 hostages.
00:44:41.000All while filming it on GoPro cameras, and then some of which, not all, calling back to their relatives on WhatsApp saying, I just killed 10 Jews.
00:45:38.000That's where now we're blurring on going backwards, not forwards, from, okay, we're going from Israeli government to Israel to some problem with the Jews.
00:46:54.000And again, I would prefer not to talk about race all the time, but the data is the data.
00:46:58.000When you commit more crimes, you have more interactions with the police, and therefore when you have more interactions with the police, some of them might go sour.
00:47:05.000So given that a lot of your data that you use about kind of like black people, arrests and convictions, How do you account for the fact that many crimes go unreported and unsolved, but also that Black Americans are statistically more likely to be wrongfully convicted?
00:48:14.000And then my last question on the topic is then looking at systematic bias and over-policing in poorer areas, which have an equal access to justice, as you've discussed with things like being able to pay for a better lawyer and how they all contribute to the outcomes.
00:48:28.000Would you say that actually it's a cultural kind of like impact in terms of?
00:49:47.000My next question is about some of the views you've expressed regarding being trans.
00:49:52.000So you've previously expressed the view that people who identify as trans are part of a social contagion due to causes such as bullying and autism.
00:50:00.000Why do you hold this position and what evidence do you have to support this position?
00:51:25.000You guys can laugh all you want, but there's something sick and medieval and awful about chopping off a 14-year-old's breast just because they're going through a momentary time of puberty anxiety.
00:51:34.000Something that your own government has recognized with the Cass Report, and I encourage you to read it.
00:51:39.000And you guys were like the leader of gender-affirming care, puberty transition surgery in London.
00:51:44.000And thankfully, because of some sane minds in this country, you guys have slowed it down to either a halt or I think completely closed it.
00:51:51.000I know there's been some debate of chemical interventions versus surgical.
00:51:55.000I don't know if that probably doesn't answer your question, but a man is a man and a woman is a woman.
00:52:02.000And then my last question before I throw it to the audience is, Turning Point USA is known for advocating for free speech on college campuses.
00:52:08.000What do you see as the biggest threat to free expression in higher education today?
00:52:44.000I've said some things that you would think would be provocative.
00:52:46.000In the States, what I've said is actually now mainline conservatism, because we've moved that Overton window rather dramatically, is my wish for the left.
00:52:58.000Is that you will become liberal again and no longer leftist.
00:53:05.000It is wrong, and I'm sure we'll talk about this in the Q&A, but as of today, Lucy Connelly is going to jail for two and a half years in this country for a social media post that she apologized and deleted about a migrant hotel.
00:53:20.000That is not a free speech value at all.
00:53:22.000You should be allowed to say outrageous things.
00:53:25.000You should be allowed to say contrarian things.
00:53:28.000Free speech is a birthright that you gave us, and you guys decided not to codify it, and now it's poof, it's basically gone.
00:53:34.000And I think there's something really troubling about that, because I want you to imagine one day that reform might take over this government.
00:54:00.000You guys are about to see a political revolution, if the stars align, that could mirror what happened in America.
00:54:06.000So when that happens, do you want Nigel Farage, prime minister, to be able to lock you up if you criticize his government?
00:54:14.000If your answer is no, then you have a moral obligation to make sure that your Prime Minister and the MPs advocate for a value-neutral free speech policy so regardless of who is in power in this country, you guys can challenge and you guys can speak openly.
00:54:30.000That is the bedrock of a liberal democracy.
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00:55:53.000I think one of the best ways to bolster an argument, to construct an argument, is to foresee potential counterarguments and to address them.
00:56:02.000And because you've been doing this for quite some time and you're well-versed in what you believe in your ideologies and your beliefs, if you were in my position, what would you ask yourself that would be most effective in challenging those core tenets?
00:56:39.000Always come into every conversation believing that you might be wrong and that you might learn something.
00:56:45.000And you guys go here to a ridiculously old institution that has some of the greatest thinkers that I admire, Tolkien, Lewis, I mean the list goes on.
00:56:56.000And I don't know the core canon of what you are studying, but I can definitely tell you in America there is a de-emphasis of the thinkers and of the writers that were once, let's just say, embedded within the core curriculum of a place like this.
00:57:14.000And I would encourage all of you that are intellectually honest, that are on the left, that are liberals, to know what conservatives believe better than conservatives.
00:59:03.000If you want to be taken seriously, because it's of course a barrier, because it actually only motivates me more to learn more and to dive deeper and to become better understanding of these ideas.
00:59:15.000But yes, there is a, at least in the states of which you studied your undergrad, there is an emphasis on the credential.
00:59:22.000However, that also plays into my core argument as the indictment of the current state of the academy.
00:59:26.000If it is a credential, then it's a very expensive, time-intensive credential.
00:59:32.000Just to be able to have people take you more seriously.
00:59:34.000And that is kind of like the downfall of what do you do instead of like, where did you go?
00:59:56.000Now, if you make an argument I never heard, I will give you great credit.
00:59:59.000So, yeah, I wanted to basically try to determine whether you, as you, I believe, suggest, believe that abortion in case of rape should be illegal because of the right to life being absolute, or that the right to life is supposed to be weighted against autonomy and freedom, but just the burden of carrying a child of a rapist is simply insufficient to justify abortion.
01:00:28.000And if I may, I would use a thought experiment for that.
01:01:08.000It will be safe for her, but it will lead to the violinist's death.
01:01:11.000The question is, would you be willing to force her to stay attached to the violinist for nine months?
01:01:18.000The next question is, would your answer change if it was 10, 11, 12 months, her whole life, if perhaps she was supposed to be bedridden for the whole time for the sake of seeing what happens if the burden significantly increases?
01:01:34.000Well, the second part of the question is irrelevant because it's only for nine months.
01:01:37.000So you keep it applicable to the topic at hand, correct?
01:01:40.000Otherwise, it's a completely irrelevant moral question.
01:01:42.000Secondly, just to be clear, You're not kidnapped when you get pregnant, so I don't quite understand the analogy, right?
01:01:51.000Number three, yes, I mean, I always found this analogy outrageous.
01:01:58.000If you're asking me or my wife, my wife would answer, if I have to suffer for nine months so that another being will assuredly get life, I will do that.
01:02:09.000Yeah, so the question is whether the drive of life is absolute or whether some level of inconvenience can be taken into account or rather burden can be taken into account and weighed against it.
01:02:23.000In this case, I'm asking what if it was, for example, for her whole life?
01:02:29.000I haven't thought deeply about it, honestly, but it's not relevant because pregnancy is at a nine-month window.
01:02:34.000So it's not relevant to my abortion view.
01:02:36.000Well, the burden is also different of being attached to someone, a violinist.
01:02:42.000The burden is completely different to carrying a rapist, a child of a rapist.
01:02:47.000So I do acknowledge that the burdens are different.
01:02:50.000The question is whether there is a burden that could be weighed against the right to life, and if in this case you just believe The only burden would be life for the mother.
01:03:44.000Very fundamentally, do you believe that every human being has a right to life, regardless of how small you are or what level of development that you are on?
01:03:51.000I do believe that every person does have a right to life.
01:03:55.000Abortion should be eliminated, not love.
01:03:57.000And you would force your mother, sorry, you would force your wife to stay with a violinist.
01:04:01.000Again, you are gruesomely describing a universal truth that we will protect life no matter how small or level of development in the environment or the degree of dependency.
01:04:10.000And again, I will throw it back to you because it's very easy to use this analogy to make it seem like I'm unreasonable.
01:04:15.000But you're actually the unreasonable one here, saying that I will eliminate the human being just because, for what reason?
01:04:21.000There is no excuse for murder, period.
01:04:53.000What you are doing is a rhetorical trap.
01:04:55.000I've answered it completely, which is this.
01:04:57.000I stand for the abolition of abortion in all circumstances against life of the mother because life matters.
01:05:02.000Every human being, I believe, is made in the image of the divine, is sacred, is unique, and if we get away from this principle as we have, we not only have moral degradation, we not only have the collapsing society around us, but it's bad for that being itself.
01:05:29.000I likewise have an abortion-related question.
01:05:32.000So the Constitution refers to citizens and persons, but it does not explicitly define when life begins.
01:05:39.000In your view, who should define this question when we have a near split of liberals and conservatives in our country?
01:05:46.000Specifically, Alabama and Delaware have defined the start of life differently.
01:05:51.000Alabama treats the question as life beginning at conception.
01:05:54.000Since you can't kill a person, you're not permitted to get an abortion.
01:05:59.000Whereas Delaware defines the start of life at the time when the fetus is viable outside of the mother.
01:06:05.000Therefore, Delaware permits abortion up until viability at about 24 to 26 weeks.
01:06:11.000Since it's not in the Constitution, who should make a countrywide decision when liberals and conservatives have answered this question differently?
01:07:16.000When all the chips are down and when all the biology is settled, it will be very simple and very clear that we have made every excuse in the book.
01:07:24.000To try to eliminate life smaller than us for simply inconveniences.
01:07:28.000So yes, right now we respect Delaware.
01:07:32.000But we have all intents to march every way through the institutions, from the cultural places of power and eventually political, to abolish abortion in America.
01:07:56.000So when we're talking about Red Bull Media as being a large influence, and I wanted to define that.
01:08:01.000It's a reference to the matrix in which a lot of these media Yeah, talk about unplugging yourself.
01:08:07.000And it's about waking up to the realization that, you know, there is a active attack on masculinity that men's rights need to be, you know, that men are being oppressed in a way and that, And, you know, many people have attributed the red pill media to rise in, like, this almost generation of lost boys.
01:08:30.000I kind of wanted to get your opinion on kind of, like, do you see this generation of lost boys as a failure of, like, say, masculinity?
01:08:38.000Or are there potential other factors, economic, social factors, such as, you know, the death of the American dream, increasing costs of living in America, increased costs of education?
01:08:48.000Are there, like, Any other reasons as to why this generation of lost boys might exist, or do you basically attribute it to your choice?
01:08:57.000It's a very good faith question, and thank you.
01:08:59.000In America, we made a stupid decision in the 1970s, 80s, and 90s to shut down our factories in the middle part of the country and basically disenfranchise and deindustrialize tens of millions of working class men and tell them to go move to the cities and learn to code.
01:09:13.000I said this in the previous Q&A, but I can again, which is that...
01:09:24.000Now it takes upwards of 60 weeks of labor a year.
01:09:26.000However, given all the economic and social and all those factors, the largest of all of them is the cultural and the educational that has infantilized men and hyper-feminized them in the messaging, in the outreach, and in the treatment.
01:09:42.000And so I can give you specific examples.
01:09:45.000Yeah, in what way has the education system infantilized men?
01:09:48.000I mean, every possible way, from the hypermedication of young men, from in the core curriculum in America, we learn about toxic masculinity from ages eight in public schools in California and in New York.
01:10:17.000I mean, I think that they come from two very different places.
01:10:19.000I think toxic masculinity comes from a level of misogyny, where I think toxic femininity often comes from a reaction to a misogynistic system which fundamentally oppresses and systematically oppresses women.
01:10:32.000And I'm not saying that toxic femininity is a good thing, but I'm saying it's a much more understood and valid reaction to a system of oppression versus toxic masculinity which oppresses.
01:11:08.000No, you can make every excuse under the book that you'd like.
01:11:10.000But only one chromosome set gets criticized, called that they're terrible and awful, and that women basically need to go into the corporate world with no reservation, and young men see this pattern in the West and in our country from the authors, from the curriculum, from the music, from the movies, and we see, and of course, again, in the educational system proper.
01:11:35.000We have seen the infantilization of the young male.
01:11:38.000And so it's just, again, we know the data, you did agree to it, that young men are checking out completely.
01:11:43.000But we're actually living under a hyper-feminist West that is toxic.
01:12:38.000How does that movie Adolescence not broadly generalize a theme that, first of all, doesn't exist?
01:12:44.000Secondly, is like a slow-motion humiliation ritual for the young boys of Britain.
01:12:53.000Could you imagine if there was a similar movie criticizing young women that are like how they are the ones that are driving men away about how catty they are, about how they don't want to be.
01:13:08.000I could give you data point after data point, and I would ask you the question, has the West grown stronger the more effeminate has become?
01:13:27.000Okay, so on your point about adolescence, I don't think adolescence is a generalization.
01:13:31.000We are not saying that every young boy in the UK is like this.
01:13:33.000We're not saying every young boy goes through this process.
01:13:35.000It's an example of what can happen when people fall into this kind of media.
01:13:39.000I think it's like, and it's more of a story or warning to what can happen to people that, you know, fall into these bubbles, who don't find the help that they necessarily need, that can turn violent.
01:13:52.000And like, this is a perfect example of toxic masculinity in which...
01:14:02.000We've also then seen within men, the largest contributor to men's deaths right now is male suicide.
01:14:09.000But I would argue that is not a factor of feminization, but instead a factor of masculinity.
01:14:15.000The idea that men can't be in touch with their feelings.
01:14:17.000You talked about a feeling-first approach being effeminate.
01:14:20.000So men are simply not allowed to engage with their feelings at all.
01:14:23.000Men are not allowed to talk about their feelings.
01:14:25.000These are large contributors to a massive problem within men's spaces that lead to what is the highest contributor to men's death, suicide.
01:14:33.000And I think this idea that, you know, And, you know, men's mental health was never an issue before, like the 90s or whatever it was when we used to start affirming men's mental health.
01:14:47.000I think it's an unfair point to make, and I think it doesn't speak to a lot of issues that a lot of young men face.
01:14:55.000And I think it's a dishonest way to go about talking about this conversation.
01:14:59.000Okay, so which part would you like me to respond to?
01:15:04.000Let's go to the point about male suicide and masculinity.
01:15:08.000So your point, if it was true that men have always been miserable, why have the suicide rates gone up?
01:15:13.000Well, because we've started recording suicides better.
01:15:16.000It's not to say that suicides didn't occur on this level.
01:15:20.000It's just we simply have better ways of recording.
01:16:56.000I think an openness to allowing men to express themselves in whichever way they want, even if that is in a more effeminate way or a Western typically effeminate way.
01:17:05.000I don't think it's about ostracization.
01:17:07.000I don't think it's about promoting one simple institution of living and disregarding all of those else.
01:18:07.000Again, by empirical third-party reported data from the UN, from the U.S. State Department, there is not a suicide crisis in sub-Saharan Africa.
01:18:15.000There's not a suicide crisis in Southeast Asia with young men.
01:18:32.000Okay, you're looking for another explanation for male unhappiness.
01:18:35.000I'm pointing to you to a part of the world that actually does value marriage and does have children, but they have no money.
01:18:42.000So therefore, how could you say it is a material problem why the men of London, who can dress how they want, go to whatever bar they want, are not happy?
01:19:05.000I'm saying the biggest, the one that has an exponent on it, is that we have a biological urge that God gave us when he designed us, which is to be fruitful and multiply for men to provide for the family.
01:19:16.000And when we suppress that, As already happens in the West, we have Exhibit A. We have a serious suicide, mental health, anxiety, depression issue.
01:19:33.000So I would just ask you to think over the next couple days, months, or years, why is it that men in countries that barely have toilets and do not have two pounds to rub together, but they do have kids and they do have a wife, Are much happier than someone with a big flat in downtown London?
01:20:12.000If you want to make sense of the change and the chaos happening around us, you're going to need God's help.
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01:22:41.000I'm actually, again, I say I'm open to have my mind moved.
01:22:44.000And I look at the data, but I believe...
01:22:59.000That in the creation account, there is an allowance to say that God created the heavens and the earth and allowed us to either evolve through species.
01:23:07.000I happen to believe, through a faith claim, that human beings are designed.
01:23:11.000What that means is designed over a long period of time or designed immediately.
01:23:17.000That's for people smarter than me to determine.
01:23:19.000I suppose what I'm getting at is if you believe in the sanctity of life and that there is something fundamentally different between the life of, say, for instance, a human being and the life of an animal, does that not make that claim slightly arbitrary?
01:24:32.000I think just, I don't want to take up too much time then, but just kind of on that, you were talking a little bit about Christian values, and I'm intrigued by that.
01:24:42.000I get the sense that you're very much motivated by your faith.
01:24:46.000To what extent do you think Donald Trump embodies gospel values?
01:24:52.000Yeah, so he reminds me very much of Samson in the Bible.
01:26:12.000We all fall short of the glory of God.
01:26:13.000But I will say that his willingness to rise to the occasion of something greater than he, To endure being shot and almost shot again in almost 700 years in federal prison is one of the most courageous actions I've ever seen from a public elected official in the history of the West.
01:26:27.000Do you think Jesus would have voted for Trump?
01:26:29.000Do I think Jesus, well, first of all, Jesus intentionally didn't vote and did not care about the Roman guard.
01:26:34.000You remember he said, pay unto Caesar what is Caesar, render unto God's what is God.
01:26:38.000Do I think Jesus would love some of the stuff that Trump is doing?
01:26:40.000It's a silly question, but I'm just, you know.
01:26:45.000Okay, so he would love the fact that Donald Trump repealed Roe versus Wade.
01:26:48.000He would love the fact that child sex trafficking is being focused on in this current government.
01:26:54.000Jesus Christ said a lot of things such as, you know, sin no more, and things such as love your neighbor are things that we should embody in every single one of our public policy decisions.
01:27:02.000So Jesus is divine, and he would not fill out a ballot.
01:27:07.000All right, thank you for answering my questions.
01:27:12.000I want to take a walk on South Africa.
01:27:14.000You did talk about South Africa, and obviously the Expropriation Act of 2024 is kind of a really big issue.
01:27:20.000I think to start off from the outside, I should mention that I also don't agree about, you know, the more terrible slogans.
01:27:31.000But I think it's good to have context where the Expropriation Act is coming from.
01:27:37.000And I think drilling down a little bit, I want to pick your thoughts based on the fact that white South Africans Only account for about 10% of the population, and they own about 72% of private land in South Africa.
01:27:51.000And I think it's always really good also to pretty much draw back a little bit from the historic background behind it.
01:27:57.000I think it goes back to about 1913, the Native Arts land, which severely disproportionately And that's what's caused much of the disparity we see economically.
01:28:13.000So I wanted to find out from you, what are your thoughts?
01:28:18.000And obviously Trump administration has really been big on what's going on in South Africa at the minute and the act itself that they enacted.
01:28:25.000So do you think it's a moral obligation that obviously you're talking about that Does that land need to be returned to black South Africans?
01:29:25.000So what they did is they did have a program called the Black Empowerment Economic Program, and pretty much what they did is for every corporation, they would have to incorporate black people within it.
01:29:35.000But that's not worked really well, and what we've seen over time is that a lot of black people that have been part of those organizations have only been a minority, so pretty much.
01:29:46.000So this is pretty much checking the box, right?
01:29:49.000You have a black person within the senior management group, but it's only probably two people and the like, and that's pretty much it.
01:29:56.000But the majority of black South Africans that do not own any land, because obviously the historic context that I gave, cannot pretty much be able to end a good living, because I mean, And excuse my ignorance on this.
01:30:14.000We want to understand, though, that the land owned by black South Africans is actually not as productive as those owned by the Boers.
01:30:46.000So thank you, because again, I don't know enough about this, but I do think that that's important to note that even the black South Africans that own land, it actually is not as fruitful or has the same yields as those that have been doing it for over 100 years in a time when there's actually food instability in the region and in South Africa.
01:31:03.000But obviously, what I would say is, I mean, over time, if, say, you did have an app that expropriates land from black South Africans, you need to build capacity over time.
01:31:12.000And I think the governors are doing that for the minority of black people that own agricultural farmland in South Africa, and they've been doing that.
01:31:19.000But also, we can't deny the fact that if you control supply chains for over a century, right, then it means that you pretty much control the economy, right?
01:31:33.000Obviously, the land was taken from black people and South Africans.
01:31:36.000White South Africa has been pretty much improving their economic outcomes over time.
01:31:43.000What do you think is the best way to break even in that sense?
01:32:19.000That race-based politics is really bad.
01:32:21.000I know this because I'm living it in my country.
01:32:24.000And I think that South Africa should get away from race obsession and should get towards something that is rooted in merit and empowerment.
01:32:37.000And so explain to me like post-apartheid, outside of the land ownership, maybe there's a business element, why is it that once apartheid was removed, why black South Africans were not able to see their material economic net worth go up in the last 20 or 30 years?
01:32:52.000What do you think there's any, and maybe I don't know enough, are there any cultural inhibitions?
01:32:58.000Inhibitions of a defeatist attitude that has basically, let's say, infected the minds of poor South Africans last 20 years that feel as if they can't accumulate wealth.
01:33:09.000Yeah, I think what's really infected Black South Africans is pretty much going back to what we're talking about.
01:33:13.000Obviously, from the colonial background that I just gave you, and we see a lot of neocolonialism, you control the supply chains, and you own 72% of agricultural farmland.
01:33:57.000Land is basically all owned by white people in America.
01:33:59.000Yet Asians, Indians are by far the richest group.
01:34:03.000So why is it that this particular group that happens to own the land and the supply chains, and we've admitted it's very hard to run this land, very hard to run this idea of farming in South Africa.
01:34:17.000That it's a group of resentment-driven politics towards a group of people that own land instead of opportunity and empowerment-based politics talking to the black majority about how they could build a better life for themselves instead of taking away other people's stuff.
01:34:31.000Well, maybe the question could be as well, why do you think white South Africans pretty much acquired that land through unjust means?
01:35:05.000It's very bad to build a political movement around taking other people's stuff because you're obsessed with what you don't have instead of the mental energy to create what you want and what you think you deserve.
01:35:15.000We've seen this with a lot of groups to America.
01:35:17.000And America is a very interesting Petri dish because we have a lot of people that come to our country with nothing.
01:35:21.000We have Cubans, we have Venezuelans, we have Colombians, we have Persians.
01:35:25.000And a rule is the group that complains the least and focuses all their...
01:35:34.000That might not be possible in South Africa.
01:35:36.000There might be like no process to create wealth, but I would just venture a guess that market principles transcend borders.
01:35:43.000So my postulization, and I'm glad you admitted it, don't say kill the boars.
01:36:23.000Maybe as well, kind of understanding the value of Lund, right?
01:36:26.000Much of what happens with Lund is obviously, and I think a very prominent economist talks about this, a guy called Hernando de Soto in his book, The Ministry of Capital.
01:38:03.000And we would say, but the code that we believe in the West and South Africa can choose, that inheritance, something that you did not work for, and all of a sudden that you have and that you are then nurturing, we're not going to take that away from you if you did not do anything individually wrong.
01:40:39.000I would like to see, of course, an end of the Kill the Boars.
01:40:41.000But my hope for South Africa is one that is rooted in empowerment and lifting up and optimism, not being like, well, something bad happened to my grandfather, therefore it impacts me.
01:40:50.000It actually doesn't impact you as much as you think.
01:40:52.000You're a free being with your own agency and your own ability.
01:40:59.000Yeah, I would say that I think cooperation is probably the pathway going forward.
01:41:04.000And I think breaking even is a good thing because the Expropriation Act actually does pretty much cut off of that, where much of land that's not being used can then be shared.