The Charlie Kirk Show - Charlie's Martyrdom and Revival + Luxury Beliefs and Zohran Mamdani

00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.

00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.

00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.

00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.

00:00:19.000 But if the most important thing is doing good, you'll end up purposeful.

00:00:24.000 College is a scam, everybody.

00:00:26.000 You got to stop sending your kids to college.

00:00:27.000 You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.

00:00:31.000 Go start a Turning Point USA college chapter.

00:00:33.000 Go start a Turning Point USA high school chapter.

00:00:35.000 Go find out how your church can get involved.

00:00:37.000 Sign up and become an activist.

00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.

00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life.

00:00:43.000 And I encourage you to do the same.

00:00:45.000 Here I am.

00:00:46.000 Lord use me.

00:00:48.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:49.000 Here we go.

00:00:56.000 The Charlie Kirk Show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers.

00:01:09.000 All right, welcome back, hour two of the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:01:12.000 I'm Andrew Colvett, executive producer of this fine show.

00:01:14.000 Joined as always.

00:01:16.000 You've been traveling a bit lately.

00:01:16.000 Well, not as always.

00:01:18.000 Blake Neff, one of the producers here, as well as Rob Henderson, author of Troubled and substack writer of Rob Henderson's newsletter.

00:01:27.000 Correct?

00:01:28.000 Did I get that right?

00:01:28.000 Yep, that's right.

00:01:29.000 All right.

00:01:29.000 So, Rob, I'm so glad you're here for multiple reasons.

00:01:33.000 I'll just say the top two right now.

00:01:35.000 You were Charlie's last long-form interview.

00:01:37.000 Yeah.

00:01:38.000 Which is, which is a, I don't even know how that makes you feel.

00:01:42.000 I don't know how it makes me feel, but it's just noteworthy.

00:01:47.000 And tell us about meeting Charlie.

00:01:49.000 I don't think you'd met him before you came in.

00:01:51.000 Yeah, that's right.

00:01:52.000 No, I told him, I think when I first shook his hand and then when we parted ways, that it was an honor to meet him.

00:01:59.000 And now it was just a surreal moment when I learned that I was his last long form interview, you know, because some time had passed between our discussion and then what had happened later.

00:02:11.000 And I presumed, you know, he's an extremely busy guy.

00:02:13.000 But yeah, I learned the same day as everyone else.

00:02:17.000 Oh, this was his last long form.

00:02:19.000 And, you know, then I felt this internal, I don't know what it was, this grieving.

00:02:23.000 Like, all of the feelings of that day came back of, you know, meeting him, knowing him, and then realizing like, you know, that was the last long discussion that he'd had.

00:02:34.000 And it made me think of how he was during that interview, as he is in all interviews, you know, inquisitive, curious, sharp, thoughtful.

00:02:42.000 You know, I'd been interviewed by a lot of different people.

00:02:45.000 And one thing that stood out to me is how sharp he was.

00:02:50.000 I would reference a study or a book, and I would see him writing things down.

00:02:53.000 He would ask follow-up questions.

00:02:55.000 And he asked me questions that I'd never been asked before in other interviews.

00:02:59.000 And I could see, like, you know, it's different to see it, you know, like everyone else on YouTube and the podcast.

00:03:04.000 Like, yeah, he's a great interviewer.

00:03:06.000 But then to see him at work in person was just amazing.

00:03:09.000 He was such a professional.

00:03:10.000 Yeah, and I'm so glad it was, I mean, I'm not glad it was his last interview.

00:03:14.000 It was a good topic for this final interview because it was hitting on some of the stuff that mattered most to him, not just in an immediate politics sense, but the really big picture things.

00:03:24.000 You know, Erica said in her speech at the memorial that if Charlie had entered politics, his biggest goal would be revive the American family.

00:03:33.000 And we talked a lot about the state of the family, the success sequence, what the impact is that we don't have intact families in America anymore and what could conceivably bring those back.

00:03:44.000 Absolutely.

00:03:44.000 Those are the really enduring issues he cared a lot about.

00:03:47.000 And that's a multi-pronged issue, right?

00:03:49.000 There's an economic front, there's a values front, there's a faith front, there's a policy front, obviously.

00:03:55.000 And you are sort of famous because you coined this term luxury beliefs, right?

00:03:59.000 And I remember you guys' interview.

00:04:01.000 I actually watched it happen live over, they connected me.

00:04:05.000 So I was watching it on a Zoom feed.

00:04:08.000 And, you know, I think it's really key that you're here today.

00:04:12.000 And Blake was like, hey, you know, he's going to be in town.

00:04:14.000 We should have him back in.

00:04:15.000 And it's going to be the day after Mom Donnie likely becomes the next mayor or gets elected to become the next mayor of New York City. 0.65

00:04:23.000 So when you pair some of the writing and the thinking and the work that you've done on luxury beliefs and you think about that in relation to Mom Donnie just getting elected in New York City, I mean, he's the living embodiment of what it means to have a luxury belief, I think, in some ways.

00:04:38.000 Or you could argue the opposite, right?

00:04:39.000 Like his supporters are going to argue the opposite.

00:04:42.000 Yeah.

00:04:42.000 Well, you know, one thing that I had spoken about with Charlie was, you know, I'd written multiple pieces expressing my concerns about the possible election of Mom Donnie.

00:04:52.000 And in one of those pieces, I said, this is, you know, think about the most obnoxious person you could possibly run into at an Ivy League Hamas encampment. 0.98

00:04:58.000 And, you know, what should come to mind is someone like Mamdani.

00:05:01.000 Like, that is the person.

00:05:02.000 And he, you know, at that time, he was about to be elected.

00:05:05.000 And now he is going to be the mayor.

00:05:07.000 And yeah, it was alarming.

00:05:09.000 And he is the luxury beliefs candidate.

00:05:13.000 You know, socialism has always appealed to highly educated people.

00:05:16.000 And he is unapologetic about it.

00:05:19.000 And a lot of his ideas globalize the Intifada, city-run grocery stores, free public transport.

00:05:26.000 A lot of, I mean, these ideas are just empirically going to make things worse.

00:05:31.000 But in his mind and in the mind of a lot of his supporters who are so disconnected from reality, they've just decided to go this route, luxury beliefs, which I define as ideas and opinions that confer status on the credentialed and the affluent while inflicting costs on the lower classes.

00:05:45.000 And a core feature of a luxury belief is that the believer is sheltered from the consequences of his or her beliefs.

00:05:50.000 And of course, Mamdani is kind of an archetype of this type of person because he was raised by a filmmaker and an Ivy League professor.

00:06:00.000 He went to Bowdoin, which his alma mater has more students from families in the top 1% of the income scale than the entire bottom 60%.

00:06:09.000 He spent his whole life cocooned in affluence.

00:06:11.000 And now he's positioning himself as a man of the people, a man of the working class.

00:06:17.000 But that was not the demographic that came out for him.

00:06:19.000 The exit polling showed that when you break down the results by education level, 57% of college graduates came out for Momdani versus only 38% of working class, non-college educated voters.

00:06:34.000 So one thing you might have some insight on, do you think it is a sort of cocooned elite that is voting for him?

00:06:42.000 Because another argument people have made is, yeah, they're higher on the income scale, but they're also the very precarious high-income ones where maybe they make a six-figure income, but they also can't afford a flat in New York.

00:06:53.000 They can't live the way they probably lived growing up in suburbia with their parents.

00:06:57.000 And so they feel very downwardly mobile, even if they're in the upper half or upper fifth of New York's incomes.

00:07:04.000 Yeah.

00:07:04.000 You know, and I've been posting about this too, that obviously, you know, Mamdani did not win the working class and people have countered by saying, you know, like, yeah, there's their, maybe they have college degrees and they're comfortable, but they don't see a path on to owning a house or something along those lines.

00:07:21.000 And I just think it's important to point out that there is a very strong difference between actual poverty versus the kind of genteel poverty of a young person, a young college educated person in New York.

00:07:34.000 Because yes, maybe at the moment they're struggling, but they have options.

00:07:37.000 They don't have to live there.

00:07:39.000 They have a degree.

00:07:39.000 They have contacts.

00:07:40.000 They have cultural capital.

00:07:42.000 They have options in a way that a blue-collar working class person in New York City doesn't.

00:07:46.000 And so they're not in the same boat.

00:07:47.000 You know, people will say, oh, well, yeah, I have a degree, but I'm still working class.

00:07:50.000 Like, that's not how sociologists would define class.

00:07:54.000 Yeah, let's put up 305.

00:07:55.000 This is which best describes your education.

00:07:58.000 So Mom Donnie got 39% of never attended college. 1.00

00:08:05.000 If you go all the way up to advanced degree, he got 57% of bachelor degree and 57% of advanced degree.

00:08:13.000 So he is essentially, but here's what's interesting.

00:08:16.000 I mean, he's pushing forward tax hikes for wider and wealthier neighborhoods.

00:08:22.000 But, you know, even Kathy Hochl's saying he's not going to be able to get these things done.

00:08:24.000 But he's promising free stuff.

00:08:26.000 This is free stuff populism.

00:08:28.000 You could call it socialism.

00:08:30.000 I mean, we could quibble on terms, but essentially this is a left-wing populist candidate, right?

00:08:36.000 What is it about these people that do not, that they don't seem to make the connection that he's going to cost them?

00:08:45.000 Is it just basically, I want to help the lower class, and this is how I'm going to do it? 0.53

00:08:50.000 Like, what's the motivation behind people that he's actually going to target?

00:08:54.000 His policies are going to hurt, but they're voting for him.

00:08:56.000 Right.

00:08:57.000 Well, I think what's going on here is that people never consider themselves a member of the elite or the upper class.

00:09:02.000 It's always the people who are ahead of them.

00:09:04.000 Those are the people who are going to be taxed or who are going to have to pay excess penalties.

00:09:10.000 And they themselves will be sort of safeguarded from this.

00:09:13.000 Sometimes I'll talk about if you track Bernie Sanders' speeches over the last 10 years, back in 2015 during the Democratic primaries, he would always talk about the millionaires and the billionaires and the millionaire class and the billionaire class.

00:09:26.000 And then you go through 2017, 2019, and now he just talks about billionaires because at some point in the last 10 years, he became a millionaire and now he exempted himself.

00:09:34.000 And now, no, the millionaires are going to be safe.

00:09:36.000 But now we're just going to go after the billionaires.

00:09:38.000 If your family, your dad is worth $100 million, he's going to be protected because he doesn't have a billion dollars.

00:09:45.000 It feels like there's something a little bit different with Mamdani versus Bernie Sanders' socialism of 2016 or 2020.

00:09:52.000 And I think it's what comes up when people describe him as kind of having this third worldist edge, which partly that's just that he is of immigrant origin.

00:10:00.000 But I think there's, maybe you can weigh in on this, there's something to the idea that he represents this attitude that does want to punish the West, sort of.

00:10:11.000 Like there's almost this attitude of wanting to lay low, you know, like historic, you know, the wealthier, whiter neighborhoods, as it were.

00:10:19.000 I mean, it's like a grievance.

00:10:20.000 It's some sort of grievance.

00:10:21.000 It's a grievance.

00:10:22.000 This is a full mask off moment where he's laying bare the actual motivations of the, we could call it DSA or the communists.

00:10:32.000 And he's not hiding from it.

00:10:33.000 What do you make of that?

00:10:34.000 I mean, this is a really, it does feel like a mask off moment where they realize, at least in a city like New York City, that they can be outright about what their true motivations are, right?

00:10:44.000 There's no sort of dog and pony show.

00:10:46.000 There's no sort of words for everyone thing anymore.

00:10:50.000 It is much more overtly.

00:10:52.000 We're going to hurt that for some people who deserve.

00:10:56.000 Yeah, you know, some people call this the Green-Red Alliance, right?

00:11:00.000 Green meaning sort of Islamist and then red meaning communist.

00:11:05.000 And there's this sort of anti-colonialist streak.

00:11:09.000 Mamdani's father recently wrote a book singing the praises of Idi Amin, the Ugandan dictator who was responsible for massacres of his people.

00:11:18.000 And because he was on the progressive left, and I don't know, maybe that wasn't real socialism or whatever it was, right?

00:11:24.000 There's always this apologetic stance whenever these ideologies go awry.

00:11:31.000 But yeah, I think that attitude, right?

00:11:34.000 That the, you know, go back to the Ivy League and Moss encampment type of person where they want to punish the West and they believe that, you know, there's some kind of a restitution that's due.

00:11:47.000 And, you know, this is one path to get there.

00:11:51.000 But what's interesting to me is that, you know, if you break down the exit polling data from the election, Momdani also, he won white voters.

00:12:00.000 Barely.

00:12:01.000 And by the way, if Sliwa wouldn't have gotten, I think he got 8% of the white vote.

00:12:01.000 Yes.

00:12:06.000 Sliwa and Cuomo would have, but the fact that it was basically, they split it between Cuomo and Momdani.

00:12:13.000 Yes, yeah, yeah.

00:12:14.000 And, you know, many of those white voters are, you know, they went through the education system and they were taught that, you know, the West is irredeemably flawed and that we need to revamp the entire system, that we, you know, need to change everything.

00:12:32.000 Well, here's a clip from Charlie, actually, 254, talking about just that.

00:12:35.000 254.

00:12:36.000 New York City is about to elect a Muslim socialist and went totally viral.

00:12:40.000 People said, what are you talking about?

00:12:41.000 No one's even heard of this guy.

00:12:43.000 His base of support are the people that have been educated to a place of stupidity.

00:12:47.000 I wrote the entire book, The College Scam, for a reason because I said the colleges are introducing idea toxins and philosophical pathogens that will deteriorate and will destabilize the United States of America.

00:13:00.000 His base are the people that have the most college degrees.

00:13:03.000 So basically, the people that are the richest, the most sheltered, and the most out of touch with the everyday concerns.

00:13:11.000 And that's really the dynamic that you're seeing: you're seeing people without college degrees went Cuomo, went Sliwa.

00:13:18.000 Yeah, and the people with the degrees and with the advanced degrees went for Momdani.

00:13:22.000 And I haven't seen any data on this, but I would be willing to bet some non-trivial sum of money that if you looked at the selectivity of the college, how expensive the college was, the more expensive the college, the more likely they were to vote for Momdani.

00:13:36.000 You know, the state schools and others, I don't think those people were nearly as enthusiastic.

00:13:41.000 And you see that pattern all throughout the higher education system that the more expensive the college, the more likely you are to see encampments and protests and locking themselves in the president's office and agitating.

00:13:51.000 And those are the schools.

00:13:53.000 I mean, they select for that type of person.

00:13:54.000 You know, the Ivy League schools have their choice for, you know, they have thousands of applicants who have perfect SAT scores.

00:14:02.000 And that's what they're, that's not what they're optimizing for.

00:14:05.000 They're optimizing for revolutionaries.

00:14:06.000 This was made explicit.

00:14:08.000 I think in 2020 or 2021, Yale, one of their admissions staff, openly stated that we are selecting for students who are, you know, want to revamp society, want to change everything, have this forward-thinking vision, you know, this kind of coded language, but essentially they were selecting for people who were on the far left.

00:14:26.000 You know, you guys know about the Ivies more than I would.

00:14:29.000 You guys are both Ivy Leagues, right?

00:14:31.000 Yeah.

00:14:32.000 Regrettably.

00:14:33.000 Whatever.

00:14:34.000 You guys are part of the problem.

00:14:35.000 I want you to know that.

00:14:37.000 That does seem interesting, though, that it's almost like it's, I think of how in Mexico, you know, the PR party, a party of like institutional revolution or like perpetual revolution, that to define sort of a certain class of American society, the elite educated part, as you definitionally have to sort of want to tear down or radically change society.

00:14:59.000 And it just strikes me as something that could be really destructive over time if, you know, okay, well, we did the easy things to tear down.

00:15:07.000 What are the harder things to tear down now?

00:15:09.000 And I think of that with Mamdani, where he wants to close Rikers and mess up New York's public schools. 0.98

00:15:14.000 There's a lot of damage he can do to that city.

00:15:16.000 Right.

00:15:16.000 Instead of just being a good steward, right?

00:15:18.000 Like being like, I mean, that's, you know, ideally, you would want your elites and aspirational elites to be good stewards for the city, the country that they're governing.

00:15:27.000 And instead, it's, well, let me find all the flaws and then introduce all these policies that have historically always failed.

00:15:34.000 All right.

00:15:34.000 So this has been, I mean, I think the luxury reliefs piece plays into this beautifully.

00:15:39.000 So I'm so glad you're here.

00:15:40.000 But there's also this concept of a dark triad that we should talk about.

00:15:46.000 Hey, Andrew Colvett here.

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00:16:48.000 Go for it, Blake.

00:16:49.000 All right, we're talking about dark triads.

00:16:51.000 Yeah, so we were saying, you know, this is a mask-off moment, but actually, what if the mask is on?

00:16:56.000 How much can we, how I guess, how genuine is Zoron Mamdani?

00:17:00.000 And are there some of these psychological concepts we've talked about?

00:17:04.000 To me, he strikes me as a fundamentally sort of phony person.

00:17:07.000 Like he's adopted.

00:17:08.000 I think he's a con man.

00:17:09.000 He's adopted this ideology because it is sort of the uniform of being this, you know, Ivy League immigrant type person that he is.

00:17:20.000 Well, I think he's embarrassed by that.

00:17:22.000 I think he's trying to, he's trying to front like he's part of the working poor that he says he's the champion of.

00:17:28.000 But I'm sorry.

00:17:29.000 And I want you to explain what Dark Triad is.

00:17:31.000 But you do not code switch.

00:17:34.000 You do not accent switch like Zoron Mamdani does.

00:17:38.000 But if you haven't seen the videos, you got to go find Mamdani switching accents constantly.

00:17:44.000 He will be anything to anybody if he thinks he can get ahead.

00:17:47.000 I mean, that's pure narcissism and manipulation.

00:17:49.000 But explain what the Dark Triad is and what do you see in Mamdani? 0.98

00:17:53.000 Yeah.

00:17:54.000 Well, so last night in Mamdani's victory speech, the first words out of his mouth, he quoted the American socialist Eugene Debs, who's an early 20th century socialist.

00:18:04.000 And so, you know, it's sort of mask off and mask on, right?

00:18:07.000 Like he's not going to moderate.

00:18:09.000 He is openly quoting socialists.

00:18:11.000 You know, you go back through his Twitter feed and he quotes people like Marx and so on.

00:18:14.000 So I don't, you know, he's not hiding it.

00:18:18.000 But it's an interesting question about the authenticity of his beliefs.

00:18:24.000 So I've written at length about the Dark Triad, which is a personality trait, or rather, a constellation of three different personality traits.

00:18:32.000 So the Dark Triad, first you have narcissism, which is entitled self-importance.

00:18:37.000 Then you have psychopathy, which is basically a callousness, a cynicism, disregard for other people.

00:18:44.000 And then you have Machiavellianism, which is strategic exploitation and duplicity.

00:18:49.000 And, you know, those three traits, you know, the core of these traits are antagonism, you know, willingness to manipulate, relatively unfeeling, and also this kind of performative aspect where there's often a kind of a horrific void beneath people who have elevated dark triad traits and there is no actual identity underlying it.

00:19:09.000 They will shape-shift.

00:19:10.000 They will behave in ways that will garner them approval, material rewards, social rewards, professional rewards, sexual rewards, and political rewards as well.

00:19:21.000 And how could that man, if we are correct, how could that manifest now that he's actually the mayor of the city and he's not just a candidate?

00:19:29.000 Well, so generally, I would assume that most elected officials probably have some elevated levels of narcissism, but it's those other two traits that are more alarming.

00:19:41.000 Psychopathy is often described as the darkest of the three dark triad traits because that often predicts interpersonal conflict and violence and criminality and that kind of thing.

00:19:51.000 But how would this manifest itself in running a city?

00:19:55.000 Well, I think very rapidly you'll find that once people acquire power, their coalitions start to fray.

00:20:02.000 Because if you are a leader, you need to have strong alliances.

00:20:06.000 You need to build trust.

00:20:08.000 And if you are high on the dark triad, you can build coalitions temporarily if you have an end goal in mind.

00:20:15.000 But often, once those people acquire power, the corruption starts to proliferate and people will start to abandon ship.

00:20:22.000 So we'll see what happens there.

00:20:24.000 But one characteristic of the Dark Triad as well is that they will essentially adopt opinions and views that will make them look good. 0.68

00:20:34.000 And this is often calculated and explicit.

00:20:37.000 And I think this makes sense when you track Mom Donnie's evolution.

00:20:41.000 He's a millennial.

00:20:42.000 He's been online his whole life.

00:20:43.000 You can see that he would post the kind of woke boilerplate nonsense five years ago.

00:20:51.000 Defund the police is a queer feminist issue and all that kind of stuff. 1.00

00:20:55.000 It was very, you know, there was that picture of him with his gloved hand giving the Christopher Columbus statue the middle finger during the peak of the pandemic.

00:21:04.000 And saying, the caption was tear it down.

00:21:07.000 So he was very much in that vein of tear the statues down, very much in the kind of woke revolutionary mindset.

00:21:14.000 And once he saw an opening to become the mayor, he pivoted toward more sort of left-wing populism, as you guys are saying, pivoting over to affordability and concentrating on affordability.

00:21:24.000 And whenever he's pressed on his previous statements, you know, his kind of Marxist and Marxist Jason statements, he says, oh, I'm just, I'm just focused on affordability.

00:21:32.000 And then five minutes later, he'll say, oh, I'm going to shut down the gifted programs of the New York City high schools.

00:21:36.000 And I'm thinking, okay, what does that have to do with affordability?

00:21:39.000 So I think you're absolutely right.

00:21:41.000 You're going to see a shift in tone.

00:21:43.000 And I don't think we have this video yet.

00:21:45.000 So I apologize.

00:21:46.000 I'm just going to read this.

00:21:47.000 CNN Van Jones last night says, I think Mom Donnie, we saw on the Cam Train campaign trail, calmer, warmer, more embracing, wasn't present in that victory speech.

00:21:56.000 He missed a chance to bring more people into the tent.

00:21:58.000 His tone was sharp, almost yelling.

00:22:01.000 And he says, the warm, open, working-class guy wasn't on stage tonight.

00:22:05.000 And you saw that towards the end of his campaign where you started seeing a harsher tone when he thought he had it in the bag.

00:22:11.000 Right.

00:22:11.000 Yeah.

00:22:12.000 And he started to castigate people for, you know, talking about his aunt after 9-11 and this kind of thing.

00:22:18.000 He started to use guilt and manipulation again.

00:22:20.000 You saw those traits surface.

00:22:21.000 Go ahead.

00:22:22.000 So, one last question.

00:22:25.000 You live in New York right now, in the five boroughs, correct?

00:22:28.000 That's correct.

00:22:29.000 So are you in for the long haul?

00:22:31.000 Or what would it take for you to take flight?

00:22:33.000 You know, I just renewed my lease.

00:22:36.000 This was maybe three or four months ago when I still had some hope.

00:22:40.000 And now I'm locked in for that reason.

00:22:43.000 I plan to stay as a resident.

00:22:47.000 I imagine I'll be traveling more frequently.

00:22:49.000 Obviously, if the city starts to rapidly deteriorate, which some people are predicting, then I may just leave early.

00:22:56.000 But I'm in a position to do so.

00:22:57.000 And so is everyone else who, or maybe the people who voted for him.

00:23:00.000 Luxury belief.

00:23:01.000 Like they're the ones who will, you know, I tweeted this the other day, half jokingly, was, you know, you can ruin your city with this one weird trick, which is create a hub where lots of money can be made.

00:23:10.000 Progressive college graduates will flock there, and then they'll start to vote for the policies that have historically failed.

00:23:16.000 And then when things get really bad, they can leave.

00:23:18.000 And you saw a version of that happen in San Francisco.

00:23:21.000 Yeah, it's really, it's interesting with a city like New York because it does have a long history.

00:23:29.000 It is a wonderful city in so many ways, right?

00:23:33.000 I mean, probably our audience is groaning at me saying that.

00:23:36.000 But if you hang out in New York, it's a city that works.

00:23:40.000 It's a city that's like massively compact, but you can get places, enjoy good meals.

00:23:45.000 I mean, the cultural aspects, there's so many things to actually really enjoy about New York.

00:23:51.000 And so, and people have histories there and family histories there.

00:23:55.000 And it's like, you know, a lot of people are going to stay and fight.

00:23:58.000 And you don't want a country where people have to flee their home, where their families are, where their grandparents are buried.

00:24:04.000 You don't want that country.

00:24:06.000 And increasingly, in places like California and New York, conservatives or just sort of pro-America, pro-capitalist people are increasingly being confronted with a very difficult decision about what to do with their families and their and I hate that.

00:24:23.000 We don't want that country.

00:24:24.000 People should be able to live and thrive where they were born.

00:24:27.000 Yeah, no, I agreed.

00:24:28.000 And most people do.

00:24:30.000 You know, there was a study a few years ago, which found that the average American lives 17 miles from their mother.

00:24:35.000 You know, most people do.

00:24:36.000 You know, they want roots, they want to stay put.

00:24:39.000 Cities are weird because there's a lot of transplants and a lot of churn. 1.00

00:24:42.000 But New York is a great city.

00:24:44.000 You know, I remember as a kid growing up watching The Apprentice, and it took place in New York.

00:24:48.000 And you would see Donald Trump saying, you know, America is a great country and New York's a great city.

00:24:55.000 This is where the American dream was born with all this, you know, the camera angles of the Statue of Liberty.

00:25:00.000 And it was really, as a kid, New York was like this.

00:25:02.000 It was iconic.

00:25:03.000 It was a dream.

00:25:03.000 It was also just a few years after 9/11.

00:25:05.000 And so, you know, it's just amazing.

00:25:07.000 Not even San Francisco has ever elected a socialist.

00:25:09.000 So this is just surreal for me.

00:25:11.000 We've got to rotate in our next wave of guests, but I just want to thank you for coming in and encourage everyone to check out his interview with Charlie.

00:25:18.000 It came out on Sunday.

00:25:20.000 It's Luxury Beliefs with Rob Henderson, Charlie's last long-form interview.

00:25:23.000 Give it a look and give a look to his sub stack as well.

00:25:26.000 It's the Rob Henderson newsletter.

00:25:28.000 So pretty easy to remember that.

00:25:30.000 And check out his book, too.

00:25:31.000 Thanks, man.

00:25:31.000 Yeah.

00:25:32.000 Thanks.

00:25:32.000 Great having you.

00:25:32.000 Thanks, Black.

00:25:33.000 Yeah.

00:25:36.000 President Trump walked into a catch-22 when taking office.

00:25:39.000 Do nothing, and America would be staring at a ticking debt bomb, the kind of crisis that could cripple our future.

00:25:44.000 Instead, he's taken action with strong policies to slow the train and buy us some time.

00:25:49.000 But the effects of past administration spending are still working through the system, and experts predict dramatic price increases and market uncertainty.

00:25:56.000 Trump is doing all he can, but no matter who's in office, protecting your retirement savings is ultimately up to you.

00:26:03.000 And that's why many Americans are turning to real assets like gold and silver.

00:26:07.000 Preserved gold is our go-to choice here at the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:26:10.000 We use them because they make it easy to own physical gold and silver even inside your retirement accounts like an IRA or 401k.

00:26:18.000 Now, hear from Charlie in his own words: Preserve gold is my go-to choice for all my precious metal needs.

00:26:23.000 They are the real deal, and I recommend them to my friends, family, and viewers.

00:26:27.000 Get their free wealth protection guide now by texting Charlie to 50-505.

00:26:32.000 President Trump is fighting for America's future.

00:26:34.000 Now it's your turn to help protect yours.

00:26:39.000 All right, so as I said, Pastor Greg Lorry is in the house.

00:26:43.000 Pastor, you are one of the most, I'm going to say it, you're going to, you don't have to say it, but you're one of the most famous evangelists in the country.

00:26:52.000 You do Harvest Crusades at Angel Stadium all over the country as well.

00:26:57.000 Thousands and thousands of people come to faith in Jesus Christ.

00:27:01.000 You know, you knew Charlie.

00:27:03.000 You came to our events.

00:27:05.000 You've been supportive.

00:27:06.000 You do things the right way.

00:27:08.000 You have a long history and a really thriving church in Southern California, multiple campuses.

00:27:13.000 I've known you for years.

00:27:15.000 I just want you to help make sense of this moment.

00:27:19.000 You know, a lot of people talking about revival.

00:27:21.000 We've seen revival.

00:27:22.000 We've also seen opposition.

00:27:26.000 The floor is yours.

00:27:27.000 I mean, help us put eyes to this.

00:27:30.000 Well, I'm reminded of that first line of a tale of two cities.

00:27:33.000 It was a best of times.

00:27:34.000 It was a worst of times.

00:27:35.000 You know, both things can happen simultaneously.

00:27:40.000 And these are dark times, but they're very bright times.

00:27:44.000 And there are signs of revival.

00:27:46.000 And I don't say that lightly because I was around for the last great spiritual awakening, the Jesus movement.

00:27:52.000 You know, I didn't realize it at the time, Andrew, but I had a front row seat to an actual spiritual awakening, the last great awakening.

00:28:00.000 And of all places, in California.

00:28:04.000 And so, you know, looking back in retrospect, and we made a movie about it called Jesus Revolution, or actually John Irwin, the director, had the vision to make this film.

00:28:14.000 And so people say, do you think we're having another Jesus revolution?

00:28:17.000 I said, well, I see promising signs.

00:28:19.000 But now looking at the last just few months, I would say I see more than promising signs.

00:28:24.000 I see things happening that have not happened for a long time and things that have never happened at all.

00:28:30.000 Take baptisms, for instance.

00:28:32.000 You know, back in the heyday of the Jesus movement, we would go to a little spot called Pirates Cove and baptize a lot of people.

00:28:39.000 But in the last just few years, we've seen over 20,000 people baptized at that same spot.

00:28:46.000 The movie had a little cause and effect.

00:28:48.000 It was sort of like a case of, you know, they say a movie or whatever, art imitates life.

00:28:53.000 In this case, life is imitating art imitating life.

00:28:56.000 People said, oh, I want to be baptized in that spot, but this is a phenomenon.

00:29:00.000 And of course, since Charlie was killed, and I hate to say that, but, you know, we have to say this.

00:29:07.000 And I think it's more than just saying he died.

00:29:09.000 He was murdered.

00:29:10.000 And we all know that.

00:29:12.000 But and I'm, you know, I'm humbled and honored to be in the studio where he would sit in the seat right next to me and do what he did so well.

00:29:21.000 But it's like rocket fuel has been poured on a pre-existing fire.

00:29:26.000 And I see it intensifying.

00:29:28.000 In fact, Wall Street Journal, you probably saw this article, even commented on the upsurge of Bible sales.

00:29:34.000 And they directly attribute this to Charlie's death.

00:29:38.000 And so, you know, Andrew, you may remember that our son Christopher died in an automobile accident 16 years ago.

00:29:46.000 And so I think when something tragic happens to Christians like that, we try to, like, why?

00:29:52.000 Why did God let this happen?

00:29:54.000 And sometimes some Christians, well-meaning, but I think misdirected, will try to find cause and effect.

00:30:00.000 Like, this happened, so this other thing will happen.

00:30:02.000 I think we need to separate them, then look at them together.

00:30:06.000 Charlie being killed was a horrible tragedy, the end.

00:30:11.000 But despite a horrible tragedy, God is doing a mighty work.

00:30:15.000 And we could look at Stephen, which is a direct parallel.

00:30:18.000 The death of Stephen was a tragedy.

00:30:20.000 And to the point we even read that godly men mourned over him.

00:30:25.000 You know, so it was a tragedy for the church.

00:30:28.000 Yet the gospel went out with greater power after the death of Stephen because the church finally got the memo.

00:30:35.000 Oh, yeah, we're not supposed to hang around in Jerusalem in a holy huddle. 0.83

00:30:39.000 We're supposed to spread across the world and preach the gospel.

00:30:43.000 And that's what happened after Stephen's death.

00:30:45.000 So we can see a horrible tragedy that God is using.

00:30:49.000 Not long before Charlie was killed, he was asked, what is your favorite Bible passage?

00:30:55.000 And you remember, it's Romans 8, 28.

00:30:57.000 God can cause all things to work together for good to those that love God.

00:31:02.000 And as Joseph said to his brothers who betrayed him, you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good.

00:31:07.000 So we see God working despite the tragedy.

00:31:11.000 And I like to make that distinction, despite the tragedy.

00:31:15.000 And I'm thinking if I'm Charlie in heaven, I would rejoice knowing that this was happening after I was called home to glory.

00:31:24.000 And so I think that's probably the greatest tribute that, you know, this is a man that lived a godly life, a life of integrity, a life of passion, a life of purpose.

00:31:35.000 And a lot of people who never even heard his name before are now going, who is this guy?

00:31:40.000 And what did he actually believe?

00:31:41.000 And they're not believing the caricature of Charlie presented by people that hate him and hate what he stands for.

00:31:47.000 But they're checking out his own videos and seeing he was actually very civil, very patient.

00:31:53.000 People would insult him to his face and he would just listen and then he would patiently respond.

00:31:59.000 And, you know, so they're seeing what this guy really stood for.

00:32:03.000 And so I think that we are seeing revival-like things happen right now.

00:32:08.000 And there's no question that Charlie's death has had an effect on this.

00:32:14.000 That's beautifully said.

00:32:15.000 I think you summed up so much of what I'm seeing, what I'm noticing.

00:32:20.000 But I'm curious, Lucas, like you are the tip of the spear when it comes to TPSA faith and building out, you know, the church network.

00:32:29.000 And we've seen this tremendous growth.

00:32:31.000 I think we went last last data point I saw, and it's probably bigger than that now, but it was, yeah, we had 4,000 churches in our network.

00:32:37.000 Now we have over 8,000.

00:32:40.000 So tell us what you're seeing on that front.

00:32:42.000 Yeah, I mean, first off, I will say, as, you know, because I am a pastor myself, I still have a church in Indiana and then also head up the faith department here.

00:32:49.000 And that was something that Charlie and I, you know, as we were kind of designing my role, felt like if I'm going to call on the nation's pastors, it's important to do so, you know, as a pastor.

00:32:58.000 And my own church has doubled in size during this time period.

00:33:01.000 And I've heard that same report from churches throughout our network.

00:33:05.000 I mean, you know, in the last 60 days, countless text messages from pastors saying we're up 10%, we're up 15%, we're up 30%, we're up 40%.

00:33:12.000 You know, some churches that doubled.

00:33:14.000 And it's been absolutely remarkable to see.

00:33:16.000 And it's not, you can't fabricate revival like this.

00:33:20.000 You know, you can't throw advertising dollars and get just change hearts for people to start buying Bibles and showing up to church and everything else.

00:33:27.000 And it was, there was, you know, the catalyst was the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk.

00:33:32.000 And when Charlie, when Charlie lost his life and the instantaneous reaction, obviously grief, obviously horror, obvious, obvious, you know, pain, but the immediate aftermath was, I need Jesus.

00:33:50.000 And people just started showing up to church.

00:33:52.000 I mean, we had a guy who had never been to church in his entire life show up.

00:33:55.000 And, you know, I think the thing that this also does, and we had talked about this a little bit, is it drew a line in the sand for pastors.

00:34:03.000 If your pastor was silent during COVID, silent during all the trans stuff in the schools, now silent during the martyrdom of Charlie Kirk, you talked about that those righteous men, you know, grieved Stephen's death.

00:34:17.000 And we had a lot of clergy that did not even talk about this.

00:34:21.000 And just as a pastor, you know, how horrified I was to see, you know, other quote-unquote men of the cloth not know how to navigate that moment and to miss the opportunity for revival in this nation.

00:34:32.000 Well, and this is why I'm so glad to have you on, Greg, because, you know, I was talking with a pastor recently who said that he thought that there, I don't know if I can't remember if he said there was judgment on big Eva, big evangelicalism, or that the revival was going to bypass the pulpits this time.

00:34:47.000 And you're one of those pastors that I would not include in that prescription.

00:34:52.000 I think you have been faithful.

00:34:54.000 You have proclaimed the gospel.

00:34:56.000 You have been steady and consistent.

00:34:59.000 And so I guess my question out of that thought is, what does the church need to do to capture this moment, this energy?

00:35:09.000 Because I do think there is a potential where, you know, people were going to Charlie on social media.

00:35:14.000 They weren't necessarily, even in life, we saw that church attendance was starting to click up, that Bible sales were clicking up.

00:35:21.000 After years and years of decline, we saw that balance out.

00:35:25.000 So, what is your call to pastors that find themselves in a position to harness this energy?

00:35:30.000 Well, the problem, Andrew, is sometimes pastors are answering questions people are not asking, and they're not answering the questions that are being asked.

00:35:37.000 This is a moment in time, and we need to seize the moment.

00:35:40.000 And like you said, Lucas, so many people coming to church, and specifically young people.

00:35:46.000 And this is what I see as a parallel between this moment and the Jesus movement.

00:35:51.000 The Jesus movement was a youth revival.

00:35:54.000 And I see young people coming back.

00:35:56.000 Of course, we are already seeing this trend.

00:35:57.000 Charlie even talked about it.

00:35:59.000 Gen Z kids coming back to church and specifically Gen Z boys.

00:36:04.000 And that I've never heard of that before.

00:36:06.000 Because usually, let's be honest, women lead the way in spiritual things. 1.00

00:36:10.000 But for to see young men starting to come in, I think of voices like Charlie's and others that have, you know, Jordan Peterson, other voices that encourage men to embrace their masculinity, biblical masculinity.

00:36:25.000 But I think even more to be men of God.

00:36:28.000 And so I think this is a moment in time.

00:36:30.000 I don't think we can be neutral.

00:36:34.000 The culture has encroached on the church now.

00:36:37.000 Now they're coming into our world.

00:36:39.000 And we saw it with COVID and the shutdowns.

00:36:42.000 We certainly saw it in California.

00:36:44.000 Some churches shutting down, staying closed for months on end.

00:36:49.000 And what a mistake that was.

00:36:51.000 But also, you know, pushing trans issues.

00:36:56.000 And we need to speak out for these things.

00:36:58.000 I don't think we can say anymore to our congregants, well, just vote your conscience.

00:37:02.000 No, they need to vote biblically.

00:37:04.000 And as pastors, we have a responsibility to educate them biblically.

00:37:08.000 What does the Bible say about these things and offer theology without apology?

00:37:15.000 So, you know, even in the Democratic Party, they're decrying the extremism in it.

00:37:21.000 And that is what seems to be influencing the party more and more right now, as we've seen in the election in New York for mayor and other areas.

00:37:30.000 And so, okay, fine.

00:37:32.000 But we need to be overt and outfront and direct in what we believe.

00:37:39.000 And if our founding fathers had coward, we wouldn't have an America to celebrate this freedom in today like we have right now.

00:37:47.000 So this is a moment you've got to stand up because I want to encourage my fellow pastors to do that.

00:37:53.000 But here's the most important thing: preach the gospel.

00:37:56.000 You know, I interviewed Frank Turk the other day for my podcast, and he said, Charlie said to him, you know, what we do politically is it's small potatoes compared to the gospel.

00:38:07.000 And one of the last things Charlie talked about before he was killed was Jesus.

00:38:12.000 And he talked about that openly because that's why I didn't think it was fair to describe him a political activist.

00:38:18.000 I mean, in a way, he was that, of course.

00:38:20.000 But I saw him as a Christian leader that influenced everything that he did, including politics, as it should.

00:38:26.000 But I think that we need to preach the gospel boldly and call people to Christ.

00:38:32.000 I'm going to go to UVU on November 16th, and we're going to preach the gospel on that campus and call them to Christ.

00:38:42.000 If you're a listener to the Charlie Kirk show, you know that Charlie built an amazing community through conversation.

00:38:49.000 And that was online, that was in person, it was everywhere.

00:38:52.000 We're able to go very viral about what we're able to do on TikTok, billions and billions of views.

00:38:57.000 But it was one connection at a time.

00:38:59.000 TikTok offers opportunities for respectful exchanges of ideas.

00:39:04.000 And through that, opportunities for community, not to talk over each other, but to talk with each other.

00:39:09.000 On TikTok, you'll find creators who teach and encourage a carpenter passing on his craft, a mom explaining how to make a budget stretch, or a gardener showing us how to bring a backyard back to life.

00:39:20.000 Different stories, but the same drive.

00:39:22.000 The desire to connect and to understand.

00:39:24.000 That's what makes a strong community.

00:39:26.000 A common desire to connect, to find a way forward through respectful dialogue, building trust and feeling heard.

00:39:31.000 Freedom to speak what we know and hear each other out.

00:39:34.000 That's the power of TikTok.

00:39:35.000 It gives everyone a seat at the table, a place to speak, to listen, and to remind each other of what connection really looks like.

00:39:42.000 Conversation build connection, and connections build communities.

00:39:48.000 You're going back to UVU.

00:39:50.000 That's, I mean, I'll be honest with you.

00:39:52.000 I'm glad you're doing it and not me.

00:39:53.000 I don't think I'll ever go back.

00:39:55.000 I don't think I ever will.

00:39:55.000 I understand.

00:39:58.000 I flew there.

00:39:59.000 I was not there when it happened, and I flew there immediately, my wife and I.

00:40:05.000 And I mean, maybe God will change my heart, but I'm glad you're going back.

00:40:10.000 Well, there's a history to it.

00:40:11.000 We've been talking with some pastors in the area about coming and doing one of our crusades there.

00:40:16.000 And we tentatively committed to 2027.

00:40:20.000 But after Charlie was murdered, we contacted him and said, is there anything we can do?

00:40:25.000 They said, come now.

00:40:26.000 Can you come now?

00:40:28.000 Well, I said, let's just do it.

00:40:30.000 Let's go.

00:40:31.000 And we've never planned a crusade in six weeks, but that's exactly what we've done.

00:40:36.000 And now it's even closer.

00:40:38.000 And we're going to go into the arena on that campus.

00:40:41.000 And I'm going to go with Phil Wickham and Chris Tomlin, both of who played at Charlie's Memorial Service.

00:40:46.000 And coming back to that, to not mention that memorial service that reached 100 million people.

00:40:53.000 120, actually.

00:40:54.000 120 million people and counting.

00:40:56.000 I'm sure.

00:40:57.000 And by the way, yeah, probably way more.

00:40:58.000 That was just, those are our streams that our tech team was running.

00:41:01.000 Like initial numbers on.

00:41:03.000 It's got to be multiples more at this point.

00:41:03.000 Yeah.

00:41:05.000 Well, that's unprecedented.

00:41:07.000 And, you know, not only to see people get up there, you know, preachers say these things, but to see people like Marco Rubio and Pete Hexeth and others who are influenced by the people.

00:41:17.000 John Jr.

00:41:18.000 I was going to say that.

00:41:19.000 He quoted more scripture than most pastors do on Sunday morning.

00:41:22.000 By the way, I saw the ad-lib.

00:41:24.000 I was in the back of the stage watching JD Vance's speech.

00:41:28.000 And you can always tell when they're going off script because the guys in the teleprompter.

00:41:28.000 Yeah.

00:41:33.000 The teleprompter is freaking out.

00:41:34.000 Like, where is he?

00:41:35.000 When he said, I've talked more about Jesus in the last two weeks than I have in my entire public life.

00:41:41.000 And I was just like, you could tell it was almost like the Holy Spirit was speaking to him in that moment.

00:41:46.000 I want to, I'm going to go, we're going to go there, right?

00:41:48.000 Because there's a lot of blessings right now.

00:41:52.000 There's a lot of momentum.

00:41:54.000 But then you see these distractions.

00:41:56.000 And you see, you know, people, all they want to talk about is they want to talk about Israel.

00:42:01.000 They want to talk about foreign policy.

00:42:02.000 There's this infighting that you're seeing within the church, within the conservative movement.

00:42:08.000 And, you know, I couldn't help but think about that as the results were coming in last night is that, man, if we could focus some of this energy on winning elections or, you know, building unity as opposed to division.

00:42:20.000 So, Lucas, you are at, in some ways, at the tip of the spear on some of this church-based stuff, right?

00:42:27.000 And there are factions.

00:42:28.000 There are people that want this group to say this and this group to proclaim this and draw a line in the sand and this.

00:42:34.000 How are you navigating this?

00:42:37.000 Because there's just a lot of infighting.

00:42:39.000 You know, anytime you work with pastors across different denominations, you have certain hot-button issues that make unity difficult, okay?

00:42:48.000 I shared with my staff, we all got together at the night of the memorial afterwards.

00:42:52.000 We got together for a dinner and just fellowship together and just kind of cried and prayed together.

00:42:56.000 And I told them, I said, this moment of unity that we're seeing right now, I want to prepare you for.

00:43:02.000 The enemy does not want to see this continue.

00:43:04.000 And there's a potential for, you know, the next phase is going to be factions and division and everything else that can potentially come because the enemy's predictable.

00:43:12.000 We're not unaware of his schemes in that way.

00:43:14.000 And so we're seeing this.

00:43:15.000 You know, the issue of Israel is obviously one of those.

00:43:18.000 You have, you know, there's other things like, you know, views of spiritual gifts and, you know, once saved, always saved, Calvinism versus Arminianism.

00:43:25.000 You know, we could look at those things.

00:43:26.000 But I think this issue of Israel has become a very big dividing point, you know, for people right now.

00:43:32.000 And unfortunately, the conversation is being driven really by people that aren't very theological.

00:43:37.000 They don't have a doctrinal approach to this.

00:43:39.000 They see this as there's only one or two options.

00:43:42.000 You're either, you know, taking money from Israel and you're bought and paid for, and that's why you're a dispensationalist, or your replacement theology and Israel doesn't matter at all.

00:43:52.000 And there's nothing.

00:43:53.000 From a theological standpoint, there's actually a wide spectrum.

00:43:56.000 You have radical dispensationalism on one side and you have replacement theology on the other side.

00:44:02.000 And across the spectrum, from a Christian vantage point, all of those views would actually have support for Israel.

00:44:08.000 They would actually have a positive view.

00:44:11.000 I'm so glad you're saying this.

00:44:13.000 And I don't mean to cut you off.

00:44:14.000 And so I'm sorry, Lucas, but this idea that you're either for or against the nation of Israel.

00:44:20.000 I'm like, do you have any idea how off-putting that binary is? 1.00

00:44:23.000 And that people on both ends of the spectrum that are pushing you to accept one or the other.

00:44:27.000 And I'm like, there's about 100 iterations between 100%.

00:44:31.000 You know, it's like, so I just, I think the whole discourse has been really tainted and corrupted, and it's not productive, actually.

00:44:39.000 The question, obviously, you know, defining Israel is a thing we have to do, recognizing their purpose and place in history, all these sorts of things.

00:44:48.000 And theologically, we have answers for that throughout this spectrum.

00:44:51.000 And so when we say, you know, the idea of what's God's view of Israel, the unifying view is this, you know, because we're not going to get dispensationalists and replacement theology guys to agree on everything theologically.

00:45:02.000 But what we can agree with is God loves people.

00:45:05.000 He's faithful.

00:45:06.000 He wants to see promises fulfilled.

00:45:08.000 And he wants to win over people for the sake of the gospel.

00:45:12.000 And when you start with that framework and then start building from there, these things start making a lot more sense as you navigate through it.

00:45:18.000 So, Pastor, the floor is yours on this very contentious issue.

00:45:22.000 Well, I am one of those dispensationalists, and I believe that God has placed the Jewish people in the land.

00:45:22.000 All right.

00:45:29.000 They're not colonizers.

00:45:31.000 They're the indigenous people of the land that God gave to them.

00:45:34.000 And he made promises to them.

00:45:36.000 And I believe God keeps his promises.

00:45:38.000 And when you read Romans 9 to 11, you see that he made a covenant with Israel.

00:45:42.000 And so I think that, yes, you have to understand Israel in the light of the Holocaust.

00:45:47.000 You know, when I was in Washington, D.C. recently, I went to the Holocaust Museum, and to think of the suffering these people have gone through.

00:45:55.000 And so they returned to their homeland against all odds.

00:45:58.000 And I believe also the prophetic time clock started ticking on May 14th, 1948, when Israel became a nation.

00:46:06.000 Having said that, that doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that the modern state of Israel does, but I don't agree with everything that the United States does.

00:46:15.000 But I still support the Jewish people.

00:46:17.000 It is the land that God gave to them.

00:46:20.000 And I think that we should pray for them and stand by them because anti-Semitism is on the rise.

00:46:26.000 I just interviewed Marco Rubio at the State Department, and I raised this very question with him.

00:46:31.000 And I loved his response.

00:46:33.000 And it was that anti-Semitism is evil.

00:46:37.000 And so I think that we need the Jewish people are beginning to understand that their best friend is the evangelical Christian.

00:46:44.000 But we do ultimately pray without apology that they come to embrace Jesus as their messiah.

00:46:51.000 And the question is: okay, so not everybody's going to agree with what you just said.

00:46:54.000 How do we bring unity in spite of that?

00:46:56.000 So you said you're a dispensationalist.

00:46:59.000 There's a lot of young people that are very skeptical about our foreign policy when it comes to Israel.

00:47:04.000 All right.

00:47:05.000 And so we understand that theology can end up playing a role in foreign policy.

00:47:10.000 And I'm just trying to be ecumenical here.

00:47:14.000 So we've got 8,000 churches in our movement.

00:47:17.000 There's a lot of people that really.

00:47:18.000 There's a 3,000 views of Israel.

00:47:20.000 There's probably exactly.

00:47:21.000 So how do we, in this moment where this has become such a flashpoint, by the way, our voters are telling us or screaming at us that they want to focus on the economy, that they want to focus on affordability of housing.

00:47:34.000 They're sick of talking about foreign policy.

00:47:36.000 They're sick of us seemingly focusing on it.

00:47:39.000 Now, I think there's arguments that you need to bring to bring peace abroad so that you can sort of have you can focus on domestic issues and domestic tranquility.

00:47:51.000 JD Vance actually tweeted out something like that.

00:47:53.000 Hey, we do need peace abroad so that we can really focus on this.

00:47:57.000 So we got three years left in the Trump 2.0 administration.

00:47:57.000 Okay, so whatever.

00:48:04.000 We've got to focus on domestic issues, but this issue is not going away.

00:48:08.000 So how within the church circles, within faith circles, do we bring, what should our heart posture be towards our brothers in the church that have differing opinions about Israel?

00:48:21.000 Well, there's room for disagreement in this.

00:48:23.000 And I have plenty of friends that don't see things the way that I see them.

00:48:27.000 But I do believe, you know, the next event in the prophetic calendar is what is called the rapture of the church.

00:48:32.000 We'll be caught up to meet the Lord in the air.

00:48:34.000 I think an antichrist figure is going to come.

00:48:36.000 A tribulation period is going to happen.

00:48:38.000 I believe then the second coming takes place and so forth.

00:48:42.000 But I think Israel is a fulfillment of what Ezekiel prophesied of the people returning to their homeland. 0.93

00:48:49.000 And it happened on the heels of the Holocaust. 0.88

00:48:51.000 However, okay, so maybe you would say, oh, well, I don't see that in quite that way.

00:48:56.000 Okay, fine.

00:48:57.000 But there's no room for anti-Semitism.

00:49:00.000 Yes.

00:49:00.000 Okay.

00:49:01.000 And that is what is growing, you know, right now.

00:49:04.000 It's going from everywhere from Ivy League universities to the world of podcasting.

00:49:09.000 We're hearing about more and more.

00:49:11.000 And I hear people addressing theological issues who don't seem to understand, to your point, Lucas, what the Bible actually says about these.

00:49:18.000 However, there's room for difference in that.

00:49:22.000 But certainly it's the only democracy in the Middle East.

00:49:26.000 And we want to, and I do believe the promise of God that says God will bless those that bless you and curse those that curse you.

00:49:34.000 I believe one of the reasons the Lord has blessed America is because we have stood by the Jewish people and the nation Israel.

00:49:42.000 And President Truman was, we were the first to come out and say, we stand by this new nation that is now declared itself.

00:49:50.000 But, you know, yes, in the church, we have to find, we can disagree agreeably.

00:49:55.000 What is that saying, Lucas?

00:49:56.000 You would know in essentials unity and non-essentials.

00:50:03.000 Charity.

00:50:04.000 No, non-essentials, there's another word.

00:50:07.000 In all things charity.

00:50:08.000 Yes, the non-essentials is liberty.

00:50:12.000 Okay, so let's call this a non-essential.

00:50:15.000 Let's say it's to have liberty here.

00:50:17.000 We can disagree, but not for anti-Semitism.

00:50:20.000 But maybe you have differing views on how much support we should send to the state of Israel.

00:50:24.000 Okay, we can talk about that, but we still understand everything we have has come to us through the Jewish people, including our Bible.

00:50:32.000 And God has established a covenant with them.

00:50:34.000 However, we don't want that to divide over those things.

00:50:38.000 Well, and listen, I've studied all of these scriptures a lot.

00:50:42.000 I'm not a theologian, but I've read all the verses that are the hot button verses about this stuff, and I've read them in context and tried to read them.

00:50:51.000 Listen, if you think this is like, I mean, I get how people conclude different things on this.

00:50:57.000 That's all I'm saying.

00:50:58.000 There's a lot there, and I understand how people of good faith come to different conclusions.

00:51:02.000 But where I totally, 1,000% agree with you on this is that there is no place for Jew hate.

00:51:09.000 And Charlie was adamant about this.

00:51:12.000 And you can feel it on people.

00:51:13.000 You can feel it in the way they frame their arguments.

00:51:16.000 So I totally agree with that.

00:51:18.000 And I think we need to have unity on that.

00:51:22.000 And I think, you know, we have to remember that our Savior is a Semite.

00:51:26.000 You know, it's like, you know, he's a Jewish person.

00:51:28.000 So I think that's a good place to end it.

00:51:30.000 Pastor Greg Lorry, thank you for your wisdom and just your consistency, your steadiness, your focus on bringing people to a saving faith in Jesus Christ.

00:51:40.000 You have been a legend and a pillar of Christianity in America and the world, evangelicalism, certainly.

00:51:46.000 And in California, you're holding it down.

00:51:49.000 So thank you so much for joining us.

00:51:50.000 And Lucas, thank you for making it happen.

00:51:52.000 Thanks, Lucas.

00:51:53.000 Thank you, Andrew.

00:51:54.000 All right, God bless you.

00:51:54.000 God bless you.

00:51:55.000 We'll see you tomorrow.

The Charlie Kirk Show - November 06, 2025

Charlie's Martyrdom and Revival + Luxury Beliefs and Zohran Mamdani

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