00:01:08.000He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
00:01:14.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:02:05.000And about my 10th year of working on campaigns and being a lobbyist and working for the state House of Representatives, God directed me into the church world.
00:02:17.000And we planted a church called Pursuit eight years ago, just north of Seattle in a little town called Snohomish, just opened a campus.
00:03:02.000You know, I think when I got into church work, I thought to myself, how will there be any parallel experience or knowledge, you know, from the governmental world?
00:03:14.000And you find out that there's a lot of politics in the church world as well.
00:03:17.000And so, you know, God knew what he was doing and he has ways of preparing and training you for the days that are ahead, even when you don't know what those days will hold.
00:03:26.000You know, but there's a lot of coalition building and fundraising and advocating for ideas and building teams of people and rallying around ideas.
00:03:34.000And, you know, a lot of the skills that we used in our campaign work have now become analogous traits that we use in the church world as well.
00:03:42.000But I really view the church as upstream, you know, and they are kind of like the guardians of worldview.
00:03:50.000And so although I'm not directly involved in politics today, I still feel very involved in the public policy space because we are doing what we can to win the war for worldview.
00:04:01.000And when you win the war for worldview, it has, you know, a cascading effect into every realm of society, but most specifically the realm of public policy.
00:04:11.000And so talk about the church going woke.
00:04:14.000You have been an outspoken critic of this trend and about how, you know, the church is increasingly embracing deconstructionist postmodern ideology.
00:04:26.000This is a major concern for believers.
00:04:33.000Yeah, you know, if we lose our ability to tell the truth, then we have lost the only platform that matters.
00:04:41.000And we are in an ideological conflict over what will be defined as true and who gets to determine the parameters for understanding truth, both scripturally, sociologically, biologically.
00:05:00.000And, you know, for me, we have just determined that even in a place like the Northwest, which is like to the left of the, you know, People's Republic of North Korea, we have just made the decision that we are not going to go in the same direction as some of these religious organizations that have really become just echoes of whatever is culture's most popular heresy at the moment.
00:05:28.000And, you know, in the Northwest, I mean, we're just flooded with kind of these therapeutic, deistic, you know, religious organizations that are shells of their former selves that have just become echoes of whatever our Babylonian culture is communicating.
00:05:49.000And if there has ever been a time to tell the truth, it's now.
00:05:52.000And if we can't, if we can't find the courage to tell the truth, then we're in the wrong business.
00:05:57.000And so, you know, for me, it's, it's kind of, it reminds me of Reagan's, I think it was his gubernatorial acceptance speech or whatever, but he talked about the need for bright, bold contrast.
00:06:06.000And for me, it's like, I'm not going to use ambiguity as a church growth strategy.
00:06:12.000Like we're going to be clear about what we're about.
00:06:14.000We're going to be clear about what we're for, but I'm unashamed of the gospel.
00:06:18.000I am unashamed of the truth claims of scripture.
00:06:21.000I am unashamed of the sexual ethic of the New Testament.
00:06:23.000I'm just, I'm just unashamed to believe that what the Bible says is true and that we are messengers of the gospel.
00:06:32.000And so, you know, and what we found is that message is actually really attractive to a whole lot of people who are fed up with watered down, you know, culturally relevant, you know, teaching that has in many ways harmed people in their ability to develop in a Christological fashion.
00:06:53.000So what are you seeing with younger pastors in particular?
00:06:56.000Now, you know, we're, we shouldn't judge or stereotype, but Russell, if I see you walking on the side of the street, I'm like, that guy's a wokey.
00:07:04.000I mean, you got the whole thing, you got the glasses, you know, you dress the part, but you're not.
00:07:09.000You preach the gospel beautifully, word for word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, verse by verse, I should say.
00:07:16.000And so, but what are you seeing with some of these younger pastors?
00:07:19.000I have to be lectured by pastors telling me that white people are evil and that we need racial reconciliation seminars and that America is a terrible country.
00:07:39.000Yeah, this is certainly a time for choosing.
00:07:43.000And I feel like in many ways, the church in the West is in a valley of decision moment.
00:07:48.000And it's kind of like choose this day whom whom you will serve.
00:07:52.000And, you know, I feel like my job is to, in a lot of ways, equally irritate people on all sides of the political paradigm.
00:08:00.000And so I try to do that pretty faithfully, you know, but the reality is you're right.
00:08:06.000I easily get typecast as a certain type of person or ascribing to a certain type of ideological bent because of the age I'm at, the way I look in the area that I live in.
00:08:18.000And so, you know, for me, it kind of is just this reminder that, you know, we've got the opportunity to, you know, be a light set on a hill for all men to see.
00:08:28.000The Apostle Paul says the church is the pillar of truth in society.
00:08:31.000We owe the culture an encounter with truth.
00:08:35.000This is not just about, you know, assaging people's, you know, dysfunction as they slip into a Christless eternity.
00:08:41.000No, we owe the culture an encounter with truth.
00:08:44.000And part of that encounter with truth looks like a well-developed worldview by which you are not worshiping at the altar of intersectionality, postmodernism, or this idea that everybody gets to really pick their own truth and whatever they say is true, you have to cower to.
00:09:04.000And so I think that there is this kind of dividing moment.
00:09:08.000I think we're in the middle of two dueling revivals, a revival of righteousness and a revival of iniquity.
00:09:14.000And I think that they will grow together like the wheat and the tares until the end times.
00:09:21.000And so, you know, we're definitely in this interesting cultural moment, but the contrasts are growing more stark than they have ever been before.
00:09:30.000And it's similar to the political moment we're in.
00:09:32.000You know, the conversations we're having politically are not the arguments over policy that separated the Democrats and the Republicans in the mid-90s, you know, where Gingrich is speaker of the house and, you know, we're developing kind of these ruling coalitions of co-belligerents who are working together to, you know, flesh out nuanced policy on taxes and social safety nets.
00:09:54.000You know, the political moment that we're in is eerily similar to the religious moment that we are in.
00:10:00.000And the contrast is growing greater than it has ever been.
00:10:08.000This is a time for people to figure out what they believe, what they're willing to go to the cross for, what they're willing to be known for.
00:10:16.000And ultimately, you have to crucify your need to be liked by people who don't share your values because we will not make it where we are going unmarked by this cultural moment.
00:10:27.000You know, they try to cancel me twice a week.
00:10:29.000We've got letters from the governor, the attorney general, the health district trying to shut us down.
00:10:34.000Antifa made threats to burn down our building.
00:10:36.000You know, we eat this stuff for breakfast and I consider it actually a validation that we are in the right direction and we are right over the target.
00:10:44.000And so for me, I just, I refuse to adjudicate the integrity or the success of what we are doing based on the blowback of people who hate the gospel and are going in the opposite direction of us.
00:10:58.000And so, you know, the gospel in many ways, it functions as an abrasive force.
00:11:04.000It is the opposite of the way that culture is going.
00:11:07.000And so we are going upstream, culture is going downstream.
00:11:10.000And so, you know, I think for me, that has been maybe the biggest learning curve over the last two years is that I have to develop the ability to see my life through the lens of Christ, understanding that he was the most loving person on earth and they still killed him.
00:11:25.000And so if I am adjudicating my success based on the complements of woke culture, then my value system is upside down.
00:11:35.000What if I told you that you could save a baby's life for just $28?
00:12:49.000Are you seeing an increase in attendance and membership?
00:12:51.000Yeah, you know, over the last two years, we've grown about 5X and we run between 2,500 and 3,000 on a Sunday.
00:13:02.000And so, you know, we've just been a lot of times hanging on for dear life.
00:13:07.000You know, following God is like being on a roller coaster filled with unexpected turns and twists.
00:13:12.000And, but I feel like in a lot of ways, people are resonating with, you know, the message that we communicate.
00:13:19.000And the central message that we communicate is that our nation is in need of an unmitigated outpouring of God's spirit like never before.
00:13:29.000And that if people return to right relationship with God in their hearts, watch what this does for the culture, for the nation, for the public policy dialogue, for legislation.
00:13:41.000Watch what it will do when people get right with God.
00:13:43.000And so, you know, we're just unapologetic, we charismatic, we wild, we're loud, just go for it.
00:13:49.000But, you know, I think people respect the conviction that we carry, even if they don't always agree with the positions we take.
00:13:55.000And, you know, for me, I feel like we're living in an era where there is a crisis of conviction.
00:14:13.000So what do you have to say to pastors that say we're, you know, we're here to affirm people and we're here to make people feel good?
00:14:22.000Yeah, I mean, I think that's the quick path towards spiritual irrelevancy.
00:14:28.000And, you know, Christ has not come to affirm our dysfunction, but instead to transform our lives.
00:14:36.000And we owe people as spiritual leaders and as pastors, you know, one day I'll stand before a holy God and I'll give account for the way that I've shepherded people.
00:14:45.000And so it's my conviction that I ought to do that well.
00:14:49.000But my God, I think, you know, we're in an era where we are more interested in not offending and affirming dysfunction and darkness than we are helping people grow, develop, and be transformed.
00:15:04.000And, you know, we have these arguments like, well, I was born this way and I was born that way.
00:15:09.000And, you know, scripture says, yeah, but you must be born again.
00:15:12.000You must have a regenerative experience in your life and in your heart.
00:15:18.000And, you know, for me as a pastor and as a leader, that's ultimately what keeps me up at night is a passion for people to really know and experience the transformative power of Jesus Christ.
00:15:29.000And when that happens in their life, it creates pathways because the truth is what makes men free.
00:15:35.000It creates pathways towards people's epistemology being developed by Christ.
00:15:39.000And in doing so, watch how they value things like life and family and marriage and so on and so forth.
00:15:45.000So, you know, I am not, you know, a Christian because I'm conservative.
00:15:54.000I am a Christian and that theological framework is what in my mind propels me towards believing in and advocating for conservative public policy, especially as it pertains to the family issues.
00:16:09.000And I just feel like, man, we do such a great disservice to people.
00:16:13.000We just do such a great disservice to people when we are afraid to tell them the truth.
00:16:20.000So in closing here, what is the significance of Christmas?
00:16:24.000It is Christmas week and I think people miss it.
00:16:38.000But the significance of Christmas is that in the fullness of time, God sent a man born under the law to redeem those who are under the law, that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
00:16:49.000And the significance of Christmas for me is that Jesus didn't stay in a manger.
00:16:56.000And he's not staying in heaven forever.
00:16:58.000And there will come a day where every man, woman, or child stands before God and gives account for their lives.
00:17:04.000And for the rest of my natural life, I'm giving my time, talent, treasure, and influence to announcing that the kingdom of God is here because the king is here.
00:17:14.000And in doing so, we owe our entire lives and allegiance to his Lordship.
00:17:19.000And so we love Christmas and we are celebrating here in Seattle.
00:17:24.000We got hit by a snowstorm actually yesterday.
00:17:58.000Government funds are available to reward companies with two or more employees who stayed open during COVID.
00:18:04.000This is not a loan and you do not have to pay it back.
00:18:06.000This program is very complicated, but nobody knows it better than the CPAs and tax experts at covidtaxrelief.org.
00:18:15.000That is covidtaxrelief.org and you pay nothing up front.
00:18:18.000They do all the work and share a percentage of the cash that they get you.
00:18:21.000Businesses of all types, including nonprofits and churches, can qualify, including those who took PPP loans, even if you had increases in sales.
00:18:30.000You did the tough thing for your employees during COVID.
00:18:32.000Let covidtaxrelief.org help get you up to $26,000 per employee.
00:18:58.000I'm amazed you're awake right now after those four days of on Charlie.
00:19:03.000I know a lot of your listeners or viewers have probably seen some of America Fest, but it literally was the best conference of any kind I've ever been to.
00:19:12.000It was such a blessing to see a strong Christian like you insist on excellence from top to bottom.
00:19:22.000And I know not everyone, every speaker was a Christian, Charlie, but what a great witness for you to put out such an amazing, professionally run conference.
00:19:30.000And I've never seen so many young people who were so well put together, so professional and so polite all in one place.
00:19:38.000It's a credit to you and your entire organization.
00:19:43.000And we're going to make next year even better because we have a list of improvements to try to continue to pursue excellence, which I believe that pursuing excellence for the right reasons is worship, is actually glory to God.
00:19:54.000And that is a deep topic we can explore.
00:19:58.000That's a very sweet compliment and it really touches me.
00:20:01.000So, Frank, you have a wonderful organization called Cross Examined.
00:20:05.000And this week, the Christmas week, it seems the secular world makes Christmas overly materialistic and on things that really don't matter, that are temporal.
00:20:16.000But there is a very trans there's a transcendent and deep meaning to Christmas.
00:20:24.000The meaning is that the Son of Man, Jesus Himself, added humanity to his deity to take the punishment for the wrongs that we have committed on himself.
00:20:38.000Jesus said the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
00:20:47.000Now, Charlie, many of the topics that you deal with on your program every day deal with morality and immorality.
00:20:56.000In fact, if we think about this, what politics is, is basically putting morality or unfortunately immorality into civic law.
00:21:06.000So we as Christians, you just read a great piece there about trying to save babies from abortion.
00:21:12.000We as Christians believe that that's one thing that we need to do in politics.
00:21:20.000And yet, people on the other side of the aisle, Charlie, will say, well, they have a moral right to choose an abortion.
00:21:26.000Well, notice that both sides are arguing from a moral position.
00:21:31.000The question is: what is the standard by which we can judge what is right and what is wrong?
00:21:39.000And my point here is that regardless of what side of the aisle you're on this issue, I think it's quite clear.
00:21:47.000You don't take the life of an innocent human being, but let's just leave that aside for a second.
00:21:52.000Both sides are claiming some sort of moral high ground.
00:21:55.000Well, moral high ground can only exist in an objective way if God exists.
00:22:00.000And everybody, regardless of what you believe, has in some way violated that moral high ground.
00:22:07.000In your personal life, somewhere, you've done it.
00:22:10.000And if God is infinitely just, and he is, the only way he can allow you and me into his presence for all eternity is to punish an innocent substitute in our place, because we need punishment if he's infinitely just.
00:22:51.000Christianity is unique in that it is the divine coming down into the flesh.
00:22:58.000In Eastern traditions, they view the flesh as dirty, broken, that you transcend out of your flesh.
00:23:05.000The idea of God becoming man is a foreign concept to far Eastern religions.
00:23:13.000Talk about the significance of that and how that is almost a concept too big for the human mind to even comprehend that a perfect and holy God would take the form of a broken creature.
00:23:29.000Yeah, well, he took the form, he took human nature, but his nature wasn't broken like ours.
00:23:34.000That's why the virgin birth is such an important concept in Christianity, a doctrine in Christianity.
00:24:35.000And the biggest difference between Christianity and every other world religion, other than the fact that Christianity is 100% true, is the fact that instead of us trying to work our way to God, which is what other religions do, God works his way to man.
00:25:22.000I think part of it is unintentional just because the culture is just so overwhelming in this time of year of end of year and family.
00:25:31.000How should we as Christians, what should we do different or how should we honor the gift that is Christmas?
00:25:40.000Well, I think we have to recognize that the ultimate gift is Jesus because he is the one who saves us from the evil that we have done, regardless whether you consider yourself politically a Republican, Democrat, Independent, or something else.
00:27:01.000Either the virgin birth or what we consider to be the nativity story as told, you know, in most detail in the book of Luke.
00:27:10.000Well, what we tend to do is we tend, as all historians do, is we, if we can find a particular author true on certain accounts we can verify, then we can assume he's probably telling the truth on accounts we cannot verify.
00:27:28.000And scholars have looked into Luke with extreme detail.
00:27:32.000In fact, Sir William Ramsey, one of the top archaeologists of all time, started to investigate Luke, thinking he would find that Luke was in error in many places.
00:27:41.000After 20 years of traveling through the Mediterranean, Sir William Ramsey said Luke is an historian of first rank.
00:27:50.000In fact, he said that Luke named something like nine islands, 54 countries, and 32 different aspects of topography.
00:29:08.000Senators Blunt, Boozman, Capito, Collins, Cornyn, Cotton, Graham, Inhoff, McConnell, Moran, Murkowski, Portman, Romney, Rounds, Shelby, Thune, Wicker, and Young are the 18 Republicans who have just voted for LGBTQ museums in New York,
00:29:26.000LGBTQ Pride Center in California, a community space for gender expansive people, $45 billion for Ukraine, border security for other countries, Pakistan, Yemen, Tunisia, while forbidding border security for America.
00:29:42.000The omnibus has passed thanks to Republicans.
00:30:48.000Who didn't think someone would rise from the dead in the middle of time?
00:30:52.000These books would not exist, Charlie, unless a man actually did claim to be God and rose from the dead, because these Jews not only didn't believe this could happen, they lost everything by saying it happened.
00:31:08.000They were kicked out of the synagogue and then beaten, tortured, and killed.
00:32:09.000Now they'll say, well, Charlie, I can't believe the virgin birth.
00:32:13.000Your argument is if the creation story and the resurrection are true, everything else could be true.
00:32:19.000Well, just if Genesis 1-1 is true, Charlie, and we even have atheists now admitting the data for evidence or for Genesis 1-1.
00:32:26.000Stephen Hawking famously said, almost everyone now believes that the universe and time itself had a beginning at the Big Bang.
00:32:34.000Now, Hawking, as you know, was a physicist and an atheist.
00:32:37.000He didn't believe in God and he tried to come up with another explanation for the creation of the universe other than God.
00:32:43.000He failed, but he's admitting the data, Charlie.
00:32:45.000Look, if Genesis 1-1 is true, if God really created the universe out of nothing, then every other verse in the Bible is at least possible, including virgin births, including the resurrection of Jesus, including the parting of the Red Sea, etc.
00:32:59.000So yes, the greatest evidence that we have for a miracle in the Bible, we can see through our telescopes.
00:33:17.000Well, Charlie, the closing thought that I have is that the most important fact in the universe is that God exists and Jesus rose from the dead.
00:33:25.000As C.S. Lewis famously said, if Christianity is true, it's of infinite importance.
00:33:32.000If it's not true, it's of no importance.
00:33:35.000What it cannot be is moderately important.
00:33:41.000Even as our political discourse shows, that's the case, regardless of what you believe.
00:33:47.000You know, you haven't lived up to your own standards, much less God's standards.
00:33:51.000And if God really came to earth, added humanity to his deity, and then took our punishment on himself, what could be more important than that, Charlie?
00:34:01.000That's why I'm so excited of the work you're doing at TPUSA.
00:34:05.000You're not just trying to save the country.