The Charlie Kirk Show - Confessions of a Former KGB Spy

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:00:01.000 As always, you can email me your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:00:04.000 We have an unbelievable conversation with a former KGB agent, Jack Barski.

00:00:10.000 An incredible conversation.

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00:00:50.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:51.000 Here we go.

00:00:52.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

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00:01:34.000 With us is Jack Barski.

00:01:36.000 Yeah, hello.

00:01:37.000 I'm good.

00:01:37.000 How are you?

00:01:38.000 Yourself?

00:01:39.000 This is really strange.

00:01:41.000 You know, I walk around here and I see pictures of you, and it's, I know this man.

00:01:47.000 I've seen him so many times.

00:01:48.000 That's so funny.

00:01:49.000 Yeah, from afar.

00:01:51.000 Yeah, that's funny.

00:01:52.000 Now, you were in the KGB.

00:01:55.000 I was in the KGB.

00:01:56.000 Guilty.

00:01:58.000 How did they recruit you?

00:01:59.000 How does that work?

00:02:00.000 Does it like when you're 12, they just say no.

00:02:03.000 Not at all.

00:02:06.000 For the kinds of jobs that they had me in mind for, they were looking at people who are already mature, like 23, 24, not yet fully formed and not yet attached to, you know, what family and children and so forth.

00:02:28.000 So I was approached, I was 22, I believe.

00:02:33.000 And the recruitment process was a very drawn-out, careful process because you don't send them over like potatoes.

00:02:44.000 Was this in East Germany at the time?

00:02:44.000 Yeah.

00:02:46.000 Yes.

00:02:46.000 So you grew up in East Germany.

00:02:48.000 Yes, I did.

00:02:49.000 And East Germany was kind of a proxy state of the Soviet.

00:02:53.000 Oh, yeah.

00:02:54.000 And towards the end, when Gorbachev took president, the East Germans were further to the left than the Soviet Union.

00:03:08.000 It's a story.

00:03:11.000 My best friend from college, he worked for the Stasi as a chemist.

00:03:20.000 And when the Gorbachev book came out, Glasnos Pierstroika, the Stasi bought up all the books and piled them up in the hallways because they just didn't like the softening that the softening of the hard line.

00:03:41.000 And Gorbachev was actually responsible for the wall to be able to come down.

00:03:47.000 Because they were waiting for him to say, okay, thanks.

00:03:47.000 Yes.

00:03:54.000 So the KGB approaches you.

00:03:56.000 Yeah.

00:03:57.000 What were you doing when you were 23 or 24?

00:04:00.000 I was studying.

00:04:01.000 It was in my third year of a five-year program to get a master's in chemistry.

00:04:06.000 So that made you a good candidate for potential international espionage?

00:04:12.000 Not necessarily.

00:04:13.000 I mean, there's a couple of interviews out there that were given by the two heads of the first directorate, which was espionage.

00:04:24.000 And what they said, what they were looking for in candidates were like a whole bunch of character traits.

00:04:32.000 Sure, you had to be smart.

00:04:34.000 You had to make quick decisions.

00:04:35.000 You had to be able to be by yourself a lot. 0.90

00:04:39.000 You had to be able, you had to be honest to become a really good liar.

00:04:45.000 And my favorite trait that they mentioned is well-controlled and well-controlled disposition.

00:05:02.000 Well-controlled.

00:05:05.000 I'm sorry.

00:05:06.000 Anyway, the last word is adventure, disposition towards adventure or something like that.

00:05:14.000 So then you pass the test and they deploy you into the United States.

00:05:19.000 Is that right?

00:05:20.000 Yeah, but that test, you know, at first I had an unofficial relationship with a handler where I studied.

00:05:29.000 And I was already employed by the university as an assistant professor when they actually made me the offer.

00:05:38.000 So it was a year and a half of like really checking me out.

00:05:41.000 Yes.

00:05:42.000 Because this is a tough job.

00:05:47.000 And the fact of the matter that I'm the longest surviving illegal KGB agent in the history of the United States tells me that they pick good.

00:05:59.000 Yes, so then they send you to America, is that right?

00:06:02.000 Under for what?

00:06:02.000 Yeah.

00:06:04.000 How are you allowed into America as an East Germany?

00:06:07.000 No.

00:06:08.000 So I traveled.

00:06:10.000 My trip to the United States had like five legs.

00:06:15.000 Went through several European cities to Mexico City, and I wound up in Chicago traveling with a false passport.

00:06:23.000 So but what was your stated purpose in the States?

00:06:26.000 My stated purpose was to live life as an American.

00:06:30.000 I had a birth certificate under the name of Jack Barski.

00:06:34.000 The young man died when he was 11 years old.

00:06:37.000 An American birth certificate?

00:06:38.000 Yeah.

00:06:39.000 So did the Russian government provide you with that?

00:06:42.000 Well, no, the KGB, in those days, it was possible, depending upon the municipality or whatever, where they keep the records, it was possible to get a birth certificate just for the asking and paying the money.

00:06:58.000 You didn't have to prove that you were entitled to have one.

00:07:02.000 So some KGB agent saw that Jack Barski died on cemetery.

00:07:11.000 And so he then acquired, I think, there were two steps.

00:07:14.000 First, he got a death certificate, and with that, he got the birth certificate.

00:07:19.000 And so Jack Barski rose again, so to speak.

00:07:23.000 And then you became Jack Barski.

00:07:25.000 Yeah.

00:07:26.000 So you lived in Chicago, is that right?

00:07:28.000 No, Chicago was just a waste station.

00:07:31.000 I wound up in New York.

00:07:34.000 Chicago would have been a really wrong place to pick because there were no Soviets in the city of Chicago.

00:07:42.000 I needed to have somebody.

00:07:44.000 So you use that word Soviet, not Russian.

00:07:46.000 What do you mean by that?

00:07:47.000 Well, Soviets, because, you know, one of my handlers were from Moldova.

00:07:54.000 Okay.

00:07:54.000 So yeah, they so, and I guarantee you that KGB had a number of folks from the Baltic republics because Russians have a hard time getting rid of an accent, you know, the Russian accent.

00:08:11.000 The KGB looked to Germans and also the interesting. 0.86

00:08:18.000 So it could have been Estonian or Latvian or Lithuanians.

00:08:22.000 And we also, you know, when it comes to the looks, we, you know, Russians look like Russians.

00:08:28.000 Yes.

00:08:29.000 Germans, you know, there's a lot of Germans in Wisconsin, for example.

00:08:29.000 Yes.

00:08:33.000 So you go to New York.

00:08:35.000 What was your job?

00:08:36.000 Well, the first year I had no job because I needed a social security card and a driver's license to become officially Jack Barski.

00:08:46.000 That birth certificate wasn't enough.

00:08:49.000 And it took me a while.

00:08:51.000 The instructions that the KGB had given me in Moscow were not workable.

00:08:57.000 And I had to improvise.

00:09:00.000 He said, well, first you got to get your library card.

00:09:02.000 And with the library card, you can use that as an ID to get your driver's license.

00:09:07.000 And then you go for the social security card.

00:09:10.000 Well, when I went to the library and I asked him for the form to fill out to get the library card, the lady asked me, do you have ID?

00:09:23.000 So that was a catch-22.

00:09:25.000 Got it.

00:09:26.000 And it took me quite a while to figure out how to get around this.

00:09:31.000 I wound up becoming a member of the Museum of Natural History.

00:09:37.000 And with that came a little plastic card with your address on it.

00:09:40.000 And that allowed me to get the library card.

00:09:43.000 Which then allowed you to get the driver's license.

00:09:46.000 So it started that chain of identifying events.

00:09:49.000 So then what was your job after that?

00:09:52.000 My first job, I was a bike messenger.

00:09:54.000 This was an interesting career move, right?

00:09:57.000 From assistant professor to bike messenger in Manhattan.

00:10:01.000 But, you know, it was one of the jobs that paid enough and where nobody asked you for a resume or like job history.

00:10:10.000 You have a bike?

00:10:11.000 Yes.

00:10:12.000 You have a bag.

00:10:13.000 Okay.

00:10:13.000 Here's packages.

00:10:14.000 Deliver.

00:10:16.000 And what year was this?

00:10:18.000 1979.

00:10:21.000 So Carter is president.

00:10:21.000 Okay.

00:10:23.000 And but this is kind of at the climax of the U.S.-Soviet tensions right near it because Reagan takes over into the 80s.

00:10:23.000 Yes.

00:10:33.000 That's right.

00:10:33.000 And then the wall came down in 91 or 99.

00:10:36.000 The wall came down in 89.

00:10:36.000 No, no, no, no.

00:10:39.000 The Soviet Union went kaput in 91.

00:10:44.000 Look, in the good old days, we Americans argued about which policies to pursue to improve this beautiful country.

00:10:50.000 Charlie Kirk here.

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00:11:23.000 As we get closer to Constitution Day, September 17th, I encourage all of you to enroll in one of these wonderful free courses from Hillsdale.

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00:11:36.000 That is charlie4hillsdale.com.

00:11:39.000 Check it out.

00:11:39.000 Charlie4Hillsdale.com.

00:11:43.000 So I'm really fascinated by this.

00:11:45.000 So you became a bike messenger as an active KGB agent.

00:11:49.000 Were you in daily, weekly, or monthly contact with what you call your handler?

00:11:54.000 No, no.

00:11:55.000 First of all, that was a hard prohibition.

00:12:03.000 Illegals like me were not allowed to meet with another KGB agent in the country where they operate.

00:12:10.000 Then how were you handled then?

00:12:13.000 Handled through communication.

00:12:16.000 I got the shortwave transmission encrypted, Morse code.

00:12:22.000 And I used secret writing with regular letters.

00:12:28.000 So the dissolvable ink or whatever it might, or invisible ink.

00:12:32.000 Well, yeah, invisible ink.

00:12:35.000 It was sort of contact paper that had just a trace of a chemical on it.

00:12:42.000 And if you didn't know what you were looking for, you wouldn't find it.

00:12:47.000 It was very subtle.

00:12:48.000 Yes, very subtle.

00:12:49.000 And then it was invisible and it had to be developed.

00:12:53.000 So what kind of things would you be communicating about?

00:12:55.000 I mean, you're a bike messenger.

00:12:56.000 It's not like they stationed you at a nuclear power plant, right?

00:12:59.000 No.

00:13:03.000 The two and a half years I did the messenger work, I wasn't capable of getting to know people that were of interest.

00:13:14.000 It just didn't work.

00:13:17.000 I don't think I even had a girlfriend at that time.

00:13:19.000 So I had to be very careful easing my way into American society because in Moscow, they couldn't teach you how to be an American.

00:13:29.000 So let me ask you, at that time, you were, what, 28 years old?

00:13:32.000 So?

00:13:32.000 Yeah, I'm getting there.

00:13:34.000 So did you view America as an enemy?

00:13:37.000 Yes.

00:13:40.000 I was relatively soon disabused of that notion, and I would go to adversary rather than enemy.

00:13:49.000 But initially, we were brought up to absolutely believe that in West Germany there were Nazis in power, which is actually somewhat true. 0.99

00:14:00.000 The head of the West German equivalent of the CIA actually had served under Hitler.

00:14:10.000 And the United States was supporting, through NATO, West Germany.

00:14:15.000 So I know that the United States was evil. 0.83

00:14:20.000 And growing up as a child, Eisenhower was a curse word. 0.78

00:14:26.000 In East Germany.

00:14:27.000 Yes.

00:14:28.000 So you get to America and you live in New York City.

00:14:35.000 And it's fast-paced and there's a lot of wealth and abundance and decadence.

00:14:35.000 Yes.

00:14:40.000 Was there a turning point at some point where you say, wait a second, there's a lot of grocery stores here and a lot of people are able to speak their mind.

00:14:49.000 Was there kind of a moment where you had kind of cognitive dissonance?

00:14:55.000 You know, rationalization is very powerful.

00:14:59.000 The richest within the United States, we were taught, and I believed it, they were all stolen from third world countries, like the bananas from Guatemala and so forth. 0.99

00:14:59.000 Interesting. 0.99

00:15:11.000 So you looked at everything through a lens of oppressors everywhere.

00:15:15.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:15:17.000 But, you know, the turning point came when I had my first job as a professional.

00:15:24.000 I worked as a computer programmer and there was an insurance company and we were taught the military industrial complex, banks and insurance companies were the epitome of evil.

00:15:37.000 When I started working there, I couldn't find any evil.

00:15:41.000 They treated us really well.

00:15:44.000 And so I got to a point where I thought the convergence theory was not a bad idea.

00:15:53.000 And that's the thought that capitalism and socialism can merge together in some way to take the best elements of each.

00:16:03.000 And that was interestingly enough, that also pulsated through the KTB.

00:16:09.000 I had a guy when I went back to Moscow just volunteering that he liked it.

00:16:15.000 And he was not a high-level, powerful guy.

00:16:19.000 So he must have heard this from somebody else.

00:16:22.000 So, you know, and Gorbachev comes in.

00:16:28.000 So the process of me getting decontaminated was very slow.

00:16:33.000 And it was slow, but the exposure of being here was obviously impactful.

00:16:39.000 You bet.

00:16:40.000 You bet.

00:16:41.000 And when I went back to Germany and reconnected with my old buddies, many of whom were also members of the party, they still have residual communist socialist thoughts.

00:16:58.000 I want to talk about that, especially the communist view of history, which I think is very important.

00:17:05.000 Look, I don't feel too good about the coming months and years, do you?

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00:18:01.000 Jack, let's finish on your biography.

00:18:03.000 So you were a bicycle messenger, not even meeting with your handler.

00:18:07.000 What happened next?

00:18:08.000 Let's go through that and then we can.

00:18:09.000 Well, what happened next?

00:18:11.000 I went to, this was plan B after I was not able to get the passport.

00:18:20.000 And plan B they had me go back to college.

00:18:24.000 In America?

00:18:25.000 Yes.

00:18:26.000 Which college?

00:18:27.000 Baruch College of City University.

00:18:30.000 Okay. 0.98

00:18:30.000 And there I made a dumb mistake. 0.98

00:18:34.000 I became valedictorian. 0.93

00:18:36.000 Too much attention, right?

00:18:38.000 Yes.

00:18:39.000 Exactly.

00:18:40.000 I had to speak at Madison Square Garden in the Feld Forum before 5,000 people.

00:18:47.000 So when they were training you to be a KGB spy, was it part of the training not to draw attention to yourself?

00:18:53.000 And being valedictorian at a major school is not a great idea.

00:18:53.000 Absolutely.

00:18:57.000 Of course not.

00:19:00.000 And I got lucky.

00:19:02.000 I mean, nobody was interested in a guy who had a 4.0 average, who was older than the other graduates, and who spoke with a touch of an accent.

00:19:14.000 Not one person came to me and said, hey, where are you from?

00:19:17.000 Nothing.

00:19:18.000 I got lucky.

00:19:21.000 So you become valedictorian.

00:19:23.000 What did you study?

00:19:25.000 I studied information technology.

00:19:27.000 Okay.

00:19:27.000 And then did you get a job after that?

00:19:29.000 Yes, that's when I became a programmer at Midlife.

00:19:32.000 Ah, the life building.

00:19:34.000 And that is when I started my journey towards eventually becoming patriotic American because I loved that work.

00:19:51.000 I finally could create again because, you know, the bike messenger, you know, it was fun sometimes when the sun was out.

00:19:58.000 But during my time as a bike messenger, I actually taught myself Spanish.

00:20:05.000 So, but I want to go back to the bike messenger.

00:20:07.000 While you're a bike messenger, you're not actually a bike messenger.

00:20:11.000 You're thinking to yourself, I'm a sleeper cell for my nation against an enemy.

00:20:15.000 Oh, yeah.

00:20:17.000 That's your incantation every day.

00:20:18.000 That's correct.

00:20:19.000 But when I became a programmer and I did this for a while, I became more and more of a programmer than a sleeper guy.

00:20:27.000 Yeah, so it started.

00:20:28.000 So a new identity started to take over.

00:20:30.000 Yes.

00:20:30.000 You know, Western values started to seem more appealing.

00:20:33.000 Yes.

00:20:34.000 And there came a point when my spying interfered with my real job.

00:20:41.000 Yes, so if you're at the MetLife building, what are you supposed to spy on?

00:20:44.000 Basically, are they betting on a multi-decade rise?

00:20:48.000 Is that it?

00:20:49.000 Yeah.

00:20:49.000 Oh, yeah.

00:20:51.000 And they were fundamentally pretty stupid. 1.00

00:20:55.000 I had access to the health record of about 10 million Americans. 1.00

00:21:01.000 At MetLife?

00:21:02.000 Yeah.

00:21:03.000 And I told them that, and they didn't bite.

00:21:06.000 I mean, they had no idea the value of data.

00:21:09.000 You could have picked out important people who have health problems.

00:21:14.000 CEOs, senators, this was group medical insurance.

00:21:20.000 So we had some armaments companies.

00:21:24.000 Oh, wow.

00:21:25.000 Generals, potentially, former generals?

00:21:27.000 Yeah, I don't know.

00:21:29.000 Former generals could be, but military was not.

00:21:33.000 So you were still communicating at this time through a clandestine communication process?

00:21:38.000 Okay.

00:21:38.000 Sure.

00:21:39.000 And then what were they interested in at MetLife?

00:21:41.000 Basically, hey, keep on improving your life, become an important person.

00:21:44.000 No, eventually they asked me to see if I can steal some software, which I did.

00:21:49.000 But MetLife in general was just my cover profession.

00:21:55.000 And as I got better and was able to interact with more interesting people, I was able to suggest some of those folks for recruitment.

00:22:10.000 That was very important to them.

00:22:12.000 Get to know more people.

00:22:14.000 When I was a student, I picked quite a few students and then MetLife professionals.

00:22:23.000 Honestly, I thought I didn't do a good job.

00:22:32.000 Because I never had my hands on a secret document.

00:22:37.000 And what I sent them, I never got any feedback as to how useful it was, whether they recruited somebody, none of that.

00:22:45.000 So you work in the dark.

00:22:47.000 So how many, I asked you this, how many agents were there like you in America?

00:22:52.000 Ten.

00:22:53.000 There were all together three waves that they sent over starting in, I think, in the 40s and then 50s and then my wave.

00:23:08.000 The reason that I know this for a fact, the reason that I'm actually talking to you here is that there was an archivist in the KGB archives who had started, had developed a great hatred for the Soviet Union, and he figured smuggling stuff out of there that would hurt them.

00:23:30.000 It did.

00:23:31.000 And amongst that information, there was my name.

00:23:34.000 Really?

00:23:34.000 And so that's how the FBI found me.

00:23:36.000 You were basically a sleeper cell then.

00:23:39.000 Yeah, exactly right.

00:23:43.000 And that I did not know.

00:23:44.000 I wasn't told, but It was written by folks who used to work in the KGB.

00:23:53.000 The most important thing for my being here was being here because the tension was sometimes so great that there were mutual expulsions of diplomats.

00:24:12.000 And diplomats were the KGB agents.

00:24:14.000 So let's fast forward.

00:24:15.000 The FBI approaches you and says and does what?

00:24:20.000 Well, first I resigned.

00:24:23.000 Resigned as a spy?

00:24:24.000 Yes.

00:24:25.000 From the KGB.

00:24:26.000 So you wrote in like Invisible Inc., I'm done?

00:24:26.000 Yeah.

00:24:29.000 Yes.

00:24:29.000 And I told them that the reason is that I'm dying from AIDS.

00:24:36.000 That wasn't true, obviously.

00:24:38.000 No, and it worked.

00:24:40.000 Oh, it worked?

00:24:41.000 It worked really well.

00:24:42.000 They went to my German family and told them that I had passed away.

00:24:46.000 Yeah, so they didn't know that I was still around.

00:24:52.000 So, and they, some people, if they're still alive, would have figured out once I did the 60 Minutes interview.

00:24:52.000 Okay.

00:25:01.000 So, yeah.

00:25:03.000 And as a matter of fact, I have a friend who worked at counterintelligence in New York.

00:25:12.000 And he confirmed that most illegals had nothing to do but live in the country just in case all the diplomats get kicked out and we would be the only ones left.

00:25:26.000 I never got any instructions what to do then.

00:25:29.000 I wasn't trained in like explosives and stuff like that.

00:25:32.000 I had no weapons training.

00:25:34.000 So I don't know.

00:25:36.000 So you resign and you blame it on AIDS, then the FBI comes.

00:25:40.000 The FBI comes seven years later.

00:25:43.000 And they do what?

00:25:44.000 What they say hello.

00:25:46.000 Okay.

00:25:48.000 We would like to have a talk with you.

00:25:50.000 And that was a big surprise because I was certain that because I stopped spying, I couldn't make any more mistakes.

00:25:58.000 So therefore, I was safe.

00:26:01.000 Well, that's because the guy from the archives is responsible for the FBI talking to me.

00:26:09.000 And normally, if you catch an agent, an enemy agent, you try to turn him.

00:26:15.000 But I couldn't be turned because I was dead.

00:26:20.000 Interesting.

00:26:21.000 So I couldn't just come back and say, hey.

00:26:21.000 Right?

00:26:25.000 And so, but I had enough information, valuable information, that they allowed me to just keep on going, keep the job, support the family.

00:26:37.000 And eventually it took a while, but I got a green card and then I became a citizen.

00:26:44.000 Via that process.

00:26:45.000 Yeah.

00:26:46.000 It's fascinating.

00:26:47.000 So I want to ask you kind of more broadly: when you were growing up, you said you never read a speech of Stalin, but you did remember reading Marx, Engels, and Lenin.

00:26:57.000 Lenin was almost deified.

00:26:57.000 Right.

00:26:58.000 This is very interesting to me because right now in American schools, Lenin is being widely read.

00:27:03.000 No.

00:27:04.000 Oh, of course.

00:27:05.000 I didn't know that.

00:27:05.000 Yeah.

00:27:06.000 Widespread.

00:27:07.000 So is Marx and Engels.

00:27:07.000 Yeah.

00:27:09.000 So does that disturb you?

00:27:11.000 What are your thoughts as a former KGB spy hearing that's happening in America?

00:27:15.000 This is a whole bunch of lies.

00:27:18.000 And we know what it led to in history.

00:27:22.000 Marx was a theorist, okay?

00:27:24.000 You know, he didn't really do anything revolutionary.

00:27:29.000 He was a writer.

00:27:29.000 No, yeah, that's right.

00:27:30.000 Yeah, he.

00:27:31.000 And Engels was rich, but that's a separate thing.

00:27:33.000 Yes.

00:27:34.000 He underwrote all of it.

00:27:35.000 Correct.

00:27:36.000 And Marx, I think there's one statement that sticks to me.

00:27:43.000 The philosophers have only interpreted the world if it's time to change it, something like that.

00:27:50.000 Yeah.

00:27:53.000 But the practitioner of the revolution was Lenin.

00:27:57.000 I mean...

00:27:58.000 Yeah, Lenin brought the abstract into reality, and that was what he was worshipped for, right?

00:28:03.000 Yeah.

00:28:04.000 He was the one that stormed the metaphorical Bastille, right?

00:28:09.000 The Winter Palais.

00:28:10.000 Yes, that's right.

00:28:11.000 But Lenin was really, growing up, you looked at Lenin more than Stalin as even the North Star.

00:28:16.000 Is that correct?

00:28:17.000 Yeah, absolutely.

00:28:19.000 Stalin was, you know, described who he really was in 1956.

00:28:28.000 I mean, the guy killed two million of his own party members because of his paranoia.

00:28:34.000 So let's just focus on the Marx thing.

00:28:37.000 As someone who you grew up in a communist country.

00:28:40.000 And you were steeped in it so much so that you were willing to be a spy for that.

00:28:40.000 Absolutely.

00:28:46.000 What is your message to an American parent knowing that their kid is learning about Marx in a positive sense?

00:28:56.000 You can study Marx if you have the right attitude, right?

00:29:02.000 Right.

00:29:02.000 But what if the attitude is Marx is right?

00:29:04.000 American capitalism is exploitation. 1.00

00:29:08.000 That's idiotic. 1.00

00:29:09.000 And you know, I said it before, what it led to. 1.00

00:29:14.000 Nothing but murderous dictators.

00:29:16.000 Why do you think that is?

00:29:17.000 Why do you think those ideas lead to that kind of devastation?

00:29:21.000 Well, what happens is when the state becomes all-powerful, typically the most evil people will rise to the top.

00:29:31.000 And I'm very much afraid of decentralization that we're looking at in the United States.

00:29:39.000 Big organizations don't work and most often become evil.

00:29:44.000 That's right. 0.92

00:29:45.000 And then you get a totally, you got a maniac like Stalin who's willing to kill. 0.99

00:29:52.000 Yeah, he murdered. 0.97

00:29:53.000 He purged his own supporters.

00:29:56.000 General Tukhachevsky killed for no reason. 0.96

00:29:59.000 He just put a bullet in him.

00:30:04.000 So let me ask you, you grew up in a society where there was a belief there was no God.

00:30:10.000 Is that fair to say?

00:30:11.000 Oh, yeah.

00:30:12.000 Widespread atheist?

00:30:14.000 Absolutely. 1.00

00:30:16.000 I grew up knowing that Christians were stupid and weak. 1.00

00:30:20.000 So let's build that up. 1.00

00:30:22.000 Let me give you one other thing here.

00:30:25.000 We had Christmas.

00:30:28.000 I had no idea that the world was celebrating the birth of Jesus.

00:30:32.000 No idea.

00:30:34.000 Easter, there was no cross in Easter.

00:30:38.000 It was just like, so there was no spirituality.

00:30:40.000 We were like rational thinkers.

00:30:44.000 And yet, communism is just another belief system.

00:30:50.000 And so how did they go?

00:30:52.000 Was it mockery, ridicule towards the religious?

00:30:54.000 Yes, yes.

00:30:57.000 Churches were allowed to function, but a lot of them were undermined by Stasi agents.

00:31:04.000 There are some pastors who actually gave away parishioners who were suspect, right?

00:31:17.000 And then the bottom line is if you went to a church on a Sunday, somebody took note.

00:31:24.000 Really?

00:31:24.000 And your career would come to a halt.

00:31:30.000 That's so fascinating.

00:31:32.000 Because was it sort of, okay, you could allow a church to somewhat exist, but if the church got too popular, it could be a threat to the state.

00:31:39.000 Is that fair to say?

00:31:40.000 Absolutely.

00:31:41.000 Yeah, of course.

00:31:43.000 That's fascinating.

00:31:46.000 Christians have one higher authority, and it's not the state. 1.00

00:31:53.000 And that's why Christianity is a threat to the state, for sure. 1.00

00:31:58.000 How did you get into a relationship with God?

00:32:02.000 Well, I was recruited by the woman that I then married.

00:32:09.000 This was a very interesting situation in that, you know, this was love at first sight.

00:32:15.000 I looked at her and said, oh, my God.

00:32:17.000 And she was reporting to me, so I had to be really careful.

00:32:20.000 But, you know, she knew that she had a task.

00:32:24.000 At MetLife?

00:32:25.000 No, no, that was a large energy company.

00:32:28.000 Okay, got it.

00:32:28.000 She was my administrative assistant, and she aggressively went after me, and she did it in the right way.

00:32:36.000 She knew that for me to get to the moment when I recognize Jesus as my Lord and Savior, my head had to start, okay, because I'm a thinker.

00:32:50.000 All right.

00:32:51.000 And so we started out, you know, talking about this stuff a little bit.

00:32:58.000 And then she gave me the book Glycus Lewis to read.

00:33:01.000 Yeah.

00:33:02.000 Mere Christianity or The Problem with Pain, the other one. 0.93

00:33:06.000 And then there was a radio program run by Dr. Ravi Zacharias, Let My People Think.

00:33:15.000 And that guy, he grabbed me.

00:33:18.000 Wow.

00:33:19.000 He grabbed me.

00:33:20.000 So the rest is history.

00:33:22.000 You know, I went to church with her, and it was really good. 0.99

00:33:30.000 And that was at a time when I was in a state of depression because my first marriage was falling apart, and there was a horrible divorce because of the other attorney, bastard liar. 0.98

00:33:48.000 And so I was always been about love. 0.96

00:33:54.000 It's self-love, but over time, it was loving others and wanting to be loved.

00:34:02.000 And I was so love-hungry.

00:34:05.000 And when I went to the church for the first time, the pastor preached about the love of God.

00:34:13.000 That sermon was especially for me.

00:34:17.000 Wow.

00:34:18.000 What's your message to Americans right now in this time?

00:34:21.000 You've seen it all.

00:34:22.000 You grew up in East Germany.

00:34:23.000 You're a KGB spy.

00:34:24.000 What's your message?

00:34:25.000 Well, for a change, to start thinking again, don't believe the lies because the number of lies that I am exposed to these days is unparalleled.

00:34:41.000 It's getting in the same direction of a totality.

00:34:44.000 Yeah, let me ask you really quick.

00:34:45.000 Does it remind you of the same totalitarianism you once grew up in?

00:34:49.000 Yes, but I'm not willing to say it's going to become communism.

00:34:55.000 Totalianism can be like what fascism.

00:34:59.000 It could be any one of these blends.

00:35:00.000 What a fabulous conversation.

00:35:02.000 Fantastic.

00:35:04.000 So just to finish this conversation up, a lot of young people are being indoctrinated and propagandized in our country.

00:35:11.000 I mean, you've kind of seen it all.

00:35:13.000 What do you think is necessary for the remedy for that right now?

00:35:17.000 I think us conservatives, thinkers, need to get louder.

00:35:25.000 Louder.

00:35:26.000 Yeah, because it's the left that's screaming all the time.

00:35:31.000 Louder, but not necessarily more radical.

00:35:34.000 Okay, so I want reason to come back into society.

00:35:39.000 And that takes an effort.

00:35:41.000 What your organization does is phenomenal in that respect.

00:35:47.000 And so I think there is still hope, but it's going to be tough.

00:35:56.000 Let me ask you, you're a trained KGB agent, and so you were trained by the Soviet experts themselves.

00:36:03.000 What do they fear the most?

00:36:04.000 What is a totalitarian fear?

00:36:06.000 Well, that the power is taken away from them.

00:36:11.000 They fear the people uprising or the...

00:36:13.000 No, no, when we're talking about, you know, the whole construct of the state, you know, even if you're at the lowest rung, you still are better than the rest of them.

00:36:24.000 You have advantages.

00:36:25.000 You feel powerful.

00:36:28.000 This goes through the entire organization.

00:36:31.000 And, you know, in Stalin's case, it became totally radical.

00:36:37.000 But there were others like this too, Ceaușescu in Romania.

00:36:40.000 Of course.

00:36:41.000 Mao in China.

00:36:42.000 Oh, my God.

00:36:42.000 Yeah.

00:36:44.000 It's not just them.

00:36:46.000 I meant to ask you this question earlier.

00:36:48.000 Do you think it's fair to say that there's probably a fair amount of spies in America right now from some of our enemies?

00:36:54.000 Yes.

00:36:56.000 And it's easier nowadays because there's a whole lot more travel going back and forth.

00:37:04.000 Almost like a fusion between the two.

00:37:06.000 Yeah, and there are quite a few amateurs that just volunteer to help out.

00:37:14.000 Like, for instance, this lady who got close to the NRA, she was a rank amateur because she communicated with Moscow through social media.

00:37:27.000 You never would have done that.

00:37:29.000 No.

00:37:29.000 Well, I mean.

00:37:31.000 Yeah, and she.

00:37:32.000 No, I was a professional for sure.

00:37:34.000 Oh, yeah.

00:37:36.000 So do you think that there's current KGB sleeper cells in America right now?

00:37:42.000 I'm unwilling to guess.

00:37:45.000 Because here's the thing.

00:37:47.000 Recently there were several cases were written about in the media.

00:37:54.000 And I'm thinking, man, they're really not doing a good job.

00:38:00.000 They're not highly professional.

00:38:02.000 But then again, that's why they were caught.

00:38:06.000 There may be others that we never know.

00:38:08.000 Maybe the Chinese have some ones that are pretty embedded.

00:38:12.000 Yeah, and possibly Russians. 0.70

00:38:15.000 But I think Russia has become very sloppy, okay?

00:38:20.000 They don't produce anything that another country wants to buy.

00:38:23.000 Except oil, that's it.

00:38:24.000 Yeah, they don't make the oil.

00:38:27.000 They just take.

00:38:27.000 Of course, yes.

00:38:30.000 And Vladimir Putin probably enjoys when some of his folks are caught because he likes to scare the world.

00:38:40.000 It's part of the tactics.

00:38:42.000 Yeah.

00:38:43.000 Yesterday he said, you know, I might use a nuke.

00:38:48.000 He knows that if he uses a nuke, he will die.

00:38:51.000 He's not suicidal.

00:38:54.000 But he just likes being able to change the narrative on that.

00:39:01.000 So any thoughts we didn't cover?

00:39:04.000 A lot, right?

00:39:06.000 Yeah, I mean, we have maybe scratched the surface.

00:39:10.000 And even my becoming a Christian, the story is a whole lot longer.

00:39:15.000 My testimony is 45 minutes.

00:39:17.000 Oh, wow.

00:39:18.000 Yeah.

00:39:20.000 It was a very, very methodical, slow process, as if God just told Shona, this is a woman's name, how to proceed.

00:39:34.000 Wow.

00:39:35.000 Well, praise God.

00:39:36.000 Yep.

00:39:36.000 Well, Jack Barski, thank you so much.

00:39:38.000 You're welcome.

00:39:38.000 It was a great pleasure.

00:39:40.000 Thank you.

00:39:41.000 Alvita Sain.

00:39:42.000 Alvita Zain, yeah.

00:39:44.000 Thank you guys.

00:39:47.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:39:48.000 Email me your thoughts.

00:39:49.000 It's always freedom at CharlieKirk.com.

00:39:51.000 Thanks so much for listening.

00:39:53.000 God bless.

00:39:57.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - September 22, 2022

Confessions of a Former KGB Spy

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