The Charlie Kirk Show - Debates From the Archive - Charlie on Abortion

00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.

00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.

00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.

00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.

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00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.

00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life.

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00:00:48.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:49.000 Here we go.

00:00:56.000 The Charlie Kirk Show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers.

00:01:09.000 Hello, Mr. Kirk.

00:01:10.000 I'm Cody.

00:01:11.000 I love what you do.

00:01:12.000 I think you're an awesome person.

00:01:13.000 I love that you're here today.

00:01:14.000 I think everyone here should give him a round of applause for being here today.

00:01:17.000 Super awesome individual.

00:01:21.000 As you see, I'm wearing a MAG hat.

00:01:22.000 You probably know who I'm voting for in this election cycle, but something you preach in a lot of what you say is interpersonal wisdom and being able to come to your own decision on things, which you and I very much agree on.

00:01:31.000 Something I want to clarify your stance on with regards to like abortion rights, for example, is over just around 75% of Americans believe that in a case of rape or incest, that women should have the reproductive rights and be able to choose in what they do with a child, which obviously is really sad with regards to those circumstances.

00:01:47.000 But I wanted to know what are your thoughts on that.

00:01:48.000 Should a woman who is forced into a case of rape or incest and impregnated like unwholesome and like in a terrible situation, should they be forced to have the child or do you think they should have their own reproductive rights?

00:01:59.000 Okay, yeah, my stance is really clear is that human rights don't stop based on the method of how they're conceived.

00:02:05.000 And I have to say first and foremost, no one wishes rape upon anybody or incest that's terrible and awful and evil and tragic. 0.97

00:02:13.000 And the rapists themselves should be castrated and probably given the death penalty. 0.99

00:02:16.000 Just to give me, just to set the table on my belief. 0.99

00:02:21.000 But if I were to tell you as a thought experiment, somebody in this audience was conceived in rape, who is it?

00:02:27.000 Good question.

00:02:28.000 One out of 200 people, roughly, with regards to the statistics.

00:02:31.000 It's anywhere from one half to one percent of those.

00:02:33.000 So that means that there's a couple people in this audience that were conceived in rape.

00:02:37.000 Do they get less human rights because they were conceived in rape?

00:02:41.000 Of course not.

00:02:42.000 And where generally speaking, my question lies is, does it lie within regards to the woman?

00:02:46.000 Because I think we can both agree that a woman, it takes a lot of like a toll on their body.

00:02:51.000 Their body changes forever after pregnancy.

00:02:54.000 And should the woman have the choice to be able to, you know, go through with an abortion in the first trimester?

00:03:00.000 You can imagine my answer.

00:03:02.000 The argument you made is the best argument for why termination should potentially be an option.

00:03:07.000 However, I don't believe it should be because human rights do not stop based on the method of how somebody is conceived.

00:03:12.000 It is an unpopular view that I have, but I must be consistent.

00:03:16.000 And I'll make one other thought experiment here.

00:03:18.000 People can disagree.

00:03:19.000 I have an ultrasound here and an ultrasound here.

00:03:21.000 The first ultrasound is a loving couple that wanted to have the baby.

00:03:25.000 The other ultrasound is from rape.

00:03:26.000 Which one is which?

00:03:28.000 You can't tell the difference because they're both human and they both deserve human rights.

00:03:32.000 And so I would not use the language force a woman to bring it to term. 0.52

00:03:37.000 However, in the term of rape, that is probably unfortunately the right term because she did not invite that in her when the other circumstances, there was a voluntary decision.

00:03:46.000 But we, again, you have to be consistent in the application of justice, and that includes in prenatal justice and prenatal care, which is obviously what happens when a baby is in utero.

00:03:55.000 And when you apply human rights, you don't get to choose whether or not the human gets rights, whether or not how that baby actually came into the world.

00:04:05.000 And so that's a follow-up once you're done.

00:04:07.000 Okay, so something, another thing you preach, and Grant, I've been following you for a long time, you're an awesome person, is that men should be able to shepherd and protect the women in their lives, you know?

00:04:15.000 I want to ask you a kind of difficult question.

00:04:17.000 If your wife, unfortunately, was attacked in some sort of way incestuous or was raped, would you ask her to go through with that pregnancy? 0.89

00:04:24.000 I mean, I've already answered that publicly.

00:04:25.000 In fact, it was even more graphic.

00:04:27.000 They said my 10-year-old daughter, which is more graphic.

00:04:30.000 And again, this is a personal private decision that I will say, in our family, we believe that under no circumstances, unless absolutely vet by multiple doctors, medical necessary, would abortion ever happen.

00:04:43.000 That is our own family's values, right?

00:04:45.000 And again, God forbid that it would ever happen to a woman in my life, right?

00:04:49.000 But again, my family's values is that when we look at a baby on the ultrasound, that is a baby that we are tasked to look after and to grow and to shepherd.

00:05:00.000 And so, yes, to be consistent, that is how we would treat it.

00:05:03.000 And the alternative would be then we would do what I think is termination or murder, which I would not be able to live with in that circumstance.

00:05:11.000 Again, these are very heavy and personal issues.

00:05:14.000 And again, that's our own family personal perspective on that very complicated issue.

00:05:18.000 Yeah, no, I understand.

00:05:19.000 So yeah, where I disagree personally is with regards to I would feel, I would fail as lepros protector, as a shepherd of my future girlfriend if something happened to her.

00:05:28.000 And I don't know, like morally how I would feel, you know, putting another human on this earth, you know, that is, you know, part of that's not me.

00:05:34.000 I understand they have human rights, and I love, you know, the conception of life as much as you do.

00:05:38.000 But you have that person who has all the same human rights as someone else, but they could have been conceived in a way in which that was not loving, you know, as an evangelical Christian.

00:05:45.000 And again, but the method of how the baby is conceived is not, it's not determinative of the value or the rights that the baby gets, right?

00:05:54.000 The baby still will eventually have free speech rights, Fourth Amendment rights, rights to voting.

00:05:59.000 Therefore, it also has a right to life.

00:06:01.000 And so, again, we must be equally consistent in how we apply it.

00:06:05.000 And in that case, in that instant, most Americans disagree with me.

00:06:08.000 That's fine, but it is still a human being.

00:06:10.000 It is a life.

00:06:12.000 And again, this is where the spiritual element comes in.

00:06:14.000 Is that baby made in the image of God or not?

00:06:17.000 It is.

00:06:18.000 And therefore, if it's made in the image of God, therefore we have a moral obligation, not just a moral right, to protect that baby from termination.

00:06:26.000 Okay.

00:06:27.000 So, thank you.

00:06:28.000 Thank you.

00:06:28.000 Appreciate it.

00:06:29.000 Yeah, of course, yeah.

00:06:30.000 Thank you.

00:06:30.000 Appreciate it.

00:06:31.000 Thank you.

00:06:33.000 I appreciate your videos I've been watching recently about how college should be thinking about what is good, what is beautiful, things like that.

00:06:39.000 I really appreciate that.

00:06:40.000 And I'm actually pro-life, and I want to ask you about your stance on that portion of your ideas.

00:06:45.000 So specifically when talking about birth control, some of birth control can cause abortions, right, with hormonal birth control, correct?

00:06:54.000 Yes, it can, but it's a little more nuanced than that because it doesn't technically, it prevents a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall.

00:07:02.000 It does not terminate a fertilized egg that's already attached to a uterine wall by preventing the release of progesterone.

00:07:10.000 That's true.

00:07:10.000 So yes, I just want to be clear.

00:07:13.000 It's not technically classified an abortifacient.

00:07:15.000 I'm not making an excuse for a hormonal birth control.

00:07:17.000 I just want to be very clear that just because you're taking hormonal birth control does not mean that you're necessarily enacting an abortion.

00:07:25.000 Does that make sense?

00:07:26.000 I guess.

00:07:27.000 Wouldn't that still cause that fertilized egg, that baby to die?

00:07:31.000 Yeah, it can, yes.

00:07:33.000 But the distinction is also, it's important to know this.

00:07:38.000 The distinction is you don't know if it has attached to the wall, if that makes sense.

00:07:42.000 So you don't know if you're pregnant because you're technically not pregnant until it attaches to the wall.

00:07:47.000 But yes, I don't know.

00:07:48.000 What is your question on hormonal reaction?

00:07:49.000 Do you think hormonal birth control should we should stop using that because of that possibility?

00:07:53.000 I've decided to no longer have strong opinions on this topic because I got a lot of people angry.

00:07:57.000 I will say this, which is very rare.

00:08:01.000 Young ladies should read the peer-reviewed literature by Democrats, liberals, and many other people that show how, let's just say, damaging hormonal birth control is to a female's brain and body.

00:08:12.000 That's not my opinion.

00:08:13.000 Other people should look at it.

00:08:14.000 When I talk about it, I get ravaged.

00:08:16.000 And I understand, I actually believe in male-female distinctions. 0.67

00:08:19.000 So I'll never take birth control, so I should be careful kind of venturing into that lane, right?

00:08:23.000 So I think those distinctions actually matter.

00:08:25.000 Everyone should make their own decision.

00:08:26.000 But if you look at just the warning pamphlet that is associated when a young lady is prescribed hormonal birth control, it is like a map of the world.

00:08:35.000 I mean, it's all you guys know what I'm talking about, paragraph to paragraph.

00:08:39.000 And we over-prescribe hormone birth control for pimples, acne, controlling your periods.

00:08:45.000 I don't even, you know that.

00:08:46.000 But it is way, way over-prescribed in this country.

00:08:49.000 And I think people need to know the downsides.

00:08:51.000 And there's a huge movement that is bipartisan, but mostly mostly by the conservatives that is trying to encourage women to get off hormonal both control.

00:08:58.000 And then I have one question about what you said earlier about with evolution or with like the age of the earth.

00:09:03.000 Do you think that evolution could be possible with the Bible? 0.98

00:09:05.000 Yeah, potentially.

00:09:06.000 I'm not, I'm, I, I, I, I don't believe in evolution, but I'm open to the belief that it's possible.

00:09:13.000 Okay.

00:09:13.000 I'm satisfied with that.

00:09:14.000 And so I do, I 100% believe in adaptation that is that is completely viewed by the human eye and by evolution is a faith belief, and the faith might be correct, which means that there's a species change.

00:09:27.000 We just haven't been around long enough to see that species change.

00:09:30.000 We can assume it.

00:09:31.000 We can implement it, it can be implied, but we have never seen or witnessed, for example, a non-Homo sapien becoming a Homo sapien.

00:09:40.000 If that makes sense.

00:09:41.000 But there are lots of Christians I respect that believe in God-ushered evolution.

00:09:46.000 That evolution is God's intent, and that is how we came here.

00:09:49.000 I have no problem with that.

00:09:50.000 I don't hold that belief.

00:09:52.000 I believe we are designed as is, as it says in the scripture.

00:09:55.000 But if you have that belief, I'm not here to tell you you're wrong.

00:09:58.000 You want to sign this hat?

00:09:59.000 Yeah, sure.

00:10:00.000 Yeah, great.

00:10:00.000 Thank you.

00:10:02.000 Good job, man.

00:10:04.000 Okay, yes.

00:10:05.000 Disagreements, welcome, and we'll keep going.

00:10:08.000 Hi, Charlie.

00:10:11.000 So my question for you was basically just about like, I know that a lot of your viewpoints on social issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights are probably driven by your faith, right?

00:10:24.000 So my question to you would be: what if someone has a different faith and therefore they innately disagree with what you believe, like what your faith says?

00:10:35.000 Yeah, it's a good question.

00:10:36.000 So I believe it because of divine revelation, but I convince people with reason.

00:10:41.000 So I never use scripture to someone who doesn't share my view as a reason as to why they should believe what I believe.

00:10:47.000 For example, I believe abortion is wrong and it's murder.

00:10:50.000 I can give you a scriptural argument, which will not apply to you, that everyone's made in the image of God and I knew you before you knitted in the womb, but I will give you a biological one that can be agreed upon using reason.

00:11:00.000 Okay, and then in the case of like LGBTQ issues, what would your argument be for someone who has a different perspective or a different faith?

00:11:12.000 What perspective?

00:11:13.000 Which in particular?

00:11:15.000 Any of it, like same-sex marriage. 0.99

00:11:17.000 Yeah, I mean, again, I've done the same-sex marriage one a lot, but I mean, how about the trans one?

00:11:21.000 I mean, the trans one's pretty easy, right? 1.00

00:11:22.000 I mean, we just went through that using reason and science and rationality, saying that what is the being?

00:11:29.000 What is the purpose of the being?

00:11:30.000 What does it exist to be?

00:11:31.000 What is it biologically?

00:11:33.000 And so everything I believe is supported and rooted and foundational in scripture, but I can defend using reason and agreed upon exterior evidence.

00:11:42.000 And what if my faith directly contradicts your faith?

00:11:47.000 That's fine.

00:11:47.000 You have to use reason too, then, though.

00:11:49.000 For example, I mean, if you come after it and you say, you know, my faith says I'm, you know, I'm Aztec and I think that we can sacrifice kids, I say that's wrong.

00:11:57.000 So tell me why you think that's right.

00:11:59.000 But here's the thing is that there is, at some point, you need an agreed-upon moral dimension.

00:12:04.000 And in America, we have a Judeo-Christian, largely Christian moral dimension that has built the West. 0.63

00:12:09.000 Murder is wrong.

00:12:10.000 You can't take people's stuff.

00:12:11.000 You have individual rights.

00:12:12.000 Universal human equality.

00:12:13.000 These things do come from a Christian viewpoint.

00:12:15.000 They're not just derived out of nature.

00:12:18.000 They do come from revelation.

00:12:19.000 And I'm sure you believe all those things.

00:12:20.000 So as long as we believe those things fundamentally and foundationally, we then can compare all of our issues to those things.

00:12:26.000 And I agree with a few of those, but on the notion of like universal equality, would you believe that you are innately treating women as equal when you're stripping them of their bodily autonomy?

00:12:41.000 Well, yes.

00:12:41.000 I mean, first of all, we're not stripping anybody of their bodily autonomy because that baby has bodily autonomy, right?

00:12:46.000 So by definition, an abortion strips that baby of bodily autonomy.

00:12:50.000 So I care about the bodily autonomy of both the woman and the unborn baby that she's hosting.

00:12:55.000 That unborn baby is a fetus inside of the woman. 0.90

00:12:58.000 Right.

00:12:59.000 So a fetus literally means, it's just another term for offspring or it's a stage of human development.

00:13:08.000 But what do you mean by fetus?

00:13:10.000 Like just because if it's small, why does it not have moral value? 0.60

00:13:14.000 It's a part of the woman's body that she has a constitutional. 0.97

00:13:18.000 Well, it's attached to. 1.00

00:13:19.000 It's not part of.

00:13:20.000 So there's an umbilical cord that attaches one being to another.

00:13:23.000 That doesn't mean that it is the mother's.

00:13:26.000 It is a separate DNA, correct?

00:13:28.000 So it's its own being, own fingerprints, own identity.

00:13:32.000 You are not your mother nor your father.

00:13:34.000 You're your own thing.

00:13:35.000 And so the bodily autonomy, universal human equality, means the mother gets rights and the baby gets rights and they're universally equal.

00:13:42.000 So just because the mother is larger, more developed, happens to be stronger, does not mean she gets to terminate the baby.

00:13:49.000 How does forcing her to give birth then give her any autonomy when she has to go through nine months of that torture? 0.61

00:13:57.000 Well, again, it's not torture for all women.

00:14:01.000 In fact, it's a blessing for a lot of people.

00:14:03.000 For some, yes.

00:14:04.000 But what if they didn't get that choice? 0.99

00:14:06.000 What if they were raped? 0.85

00:14:07.000 What if they were to be able to do that? 0.99

00:14:07.000 Okay, no, so yeah. 0.99

00:14:08.000 So again, I believe all babies should be protected regardless of rape or incest.

00:14:12.000 But then can we agree that all abortions except rape should be outlawed?

00:14:16.000 No, I don't agree with that.

00:14:17.000 Okay, yeah.

00:14:18.000 So then why do you it's funny what you always bring up the rape thing as a as an it's less than 1% of all the cases. 0.77

00:14:23.000 But let's but didn't the woman then therefore make a decision to get pregnant when she had sex? 1.00

00:14:27.000 So she had bodily autonomy and she decided to use her bodily autonomy to get pregnant. 1.00

00:14:31.000 No, because she could have been using contraception that could have failed. 0.96

00:14:34.000 But no, but she decided she decided to have sex.

00:14:40.000 Making the decision to have sex isn't the same as making the decision to reproduce.

00:14:47.000 Wait, well, hold on.

00:14:51.000 Play risky games.

00:14:52.000 You get risky prizes.

00:14:58.000 This is Lane Schoenberger, Chief Investment Officer and Founding Partner of YReFi.

00:15:03.000 It has been an honor and a privilege to partner with Turning Point and for Charlie to endorse us.

00:15:08.000 His endorsement means the world to us, and we look forward to continuing our partnership with Turning Point for years to come.

00:15:14.000 Now, here Charlie, in his own words, tell you about YReFi.

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00:16:07.000 So I guarantee you that almost every single person who gets pregnant in this country knows the price and the consequence of sex. 0.94

00:16:14.000 You would agree.

00:16:15.000 And so when they engage in that, they're playing in a game of which they know that there might be a consequence.

00:16:20.000 So you have to take responsibility for your own orgasms.

00:16:26.000 And the responsibility could be to terminate that pregnancy if you cannot support it.

00:16:32.000 Okay, so let's play out that moral argument.

00:16:35.000 I have a two-year-old at home.

00:16:36.000 If I lose my job and all of a sudden I'm bankrupt, can I terminate my two-year-old because I can no longer support her?

00:16:42.000 You should not terminate her.

00:16:44.000 But no, why should I not be allowed to?

00:16:46.000 You kept her.

00:16:47.000 She was born.

00:16:48.000 Now she's your child.

00:16:49.000 And as a parent, you have a responsibility towards her.

00:16:51.000 So at what point did my daughter become a human being?

00:16:55.000 21 weeks.

00:16:56.000 I would say when she had the ability to survive outside of your wife's body independently.

00:17:03.000 Okay, so, but what do you mean by survive? 1.00

00:17:05.000 My daughter still can't hunt or gather, still can't go grocery shopping, still can't make her own food, so she can't survive without either of us. 1.00

00:17:13.000 When she had the ability to breathe by herself, when she had the ability to breathe.

00:17:18.000 So the doctors told us that there was a potential that my daughter might need a breathing machine when she born.

00:17:23.000 Was she not human?

00:17:25.000 She was born.

00:17:26.000 Yes. 0.71

00:17:27.000 And she can survive with medical aid, but say you take a fetus out at, what, 10, 12 weeks? 0.99

00:17:33.000 They can't survive.

00:17:34.000 Yes, but just, I want to understand this.

00:17:36.000 Just because a being can't support without supportive care, does that make them not human?

00:17:41.000 No.

00:17:42.000 But at a certain point in the pregnancy, they cannot survive even with that care.

00:17:47.000 They cannot survive in human beings.

00:17:48.000 No, but I know, but survive, a baby will die within a couple of days without nourishment and die with, like, almost start starving to death in 24 hours.

00:17:55.000 A baby always needs external care throughout the process of development, whether it be at 10 weeks or 15 weeks, 20 weeks or 30 weeks.

00:18:02.000 I'm just curious, when all of a sudden does the magic switch happen when the baby becomes human?

00:18:10.000 Like I said, when it can survive independently of the body.

00:18:13.000 So before not human and then after human?

00:18:16.000 Sure.

00:18:17.000 So then before what is it called?

00:18:18.000 What species is that?

00:18:20.000 Is it a dolphin, a giraffe, a crocodile?

00:18:22.000 Like what species is it?

00:18:23.000 Because it's not human.

00:18:25.000 You said it's not human.

00:18:26.000 So before that, what species is it?

00:18:28.000 I would just describe it as a human fetus.

00:18:31.000 Once again, not a human, not necessarily a human, like fully grown person.

00:18:35.000 Okay, but.

00:18:36.000 Or like just a fully developed person.

00:18:38.000 Yeah, but a five-year-old is not fully grown or developed.

00:18:40.000 In fact, brains do not fully develop until 25 years old.

00:18:43.000 So a lot of people in this audience don't have fully developed.

00:18:45.000 You're still developing.

00:18:47.000 So, but under that argument, development is a process that takes many, many decades, actually, a decade and a half.

00:18:53.000 So why do we apply that logic and that morality just because something is smaller or inconvenient, we can terminate that thing?

00:19:01.000 I think a good point would be to make that, like a good point to make would be that once the baby is separate from the mother, like fully separate out of the body, then you can consider that baby like an independent human being.

00:19:14.000 Okay, so then abortion, okay, all the way up through the process of development, even if the baby can feel pain.

00:19:21.000 People don't get, they don't traditionally get abortions in the second or something.

00:19:25.000 Yeah, there's about 30,000 a year, actually.

00:19:28.000 And so you should know that.

00:19:29.000 But that's okay.

00:19:31.000 In the third trimester, and it's legal in six states across the country, this state being one of them.

00:19:35.000 And six states and then District of Columbia.

00:19:37.000 But I just want to be very clear, though.

00:19:39.000 And it's important that we're having this, that when a woman says, hey, I'm pregnant, I'm having a what? Baby. 0.85

00:19:48.000 Not a fetus.

00:19:51.000 Because when the baby is born, it's a baby.

00:19:53.000 Got it.

00:19:54.000 So, but help me understand.

00:19:55.000 When a woman is pregnant and she points to her stomach, she says there's a baby here. 0.99

00:20:01.000 And then another woman wants to go to an abortion clinic.

00:20:03.000 She says there's a fetus here.

00:20:05.000 Why is it morally okay that we say that a woman can view this as a baby and that as something that's just a clump of cells? 0.98

00:20:12.000 Shouldn't there be an independent truth that is applicable to all beings?

00:20:17.000 Well, that's the thing about the pro-choice argument: you have the choice.

00:20:20.000 If you want to abort, you can.

00:20:22.000 If you don't want to, you don't have to.

00:20:23.000 But let's play this out.

00:20:24.000 What you're saying, though, is that human existence is merely subjective based on who is more powerful than you.

00:20:32.000 Not necessarily based on who's more powerful than that.

00:20:34.000 Well, think about it.

00:20:34.000 You can't argue that.

00:20:35.000 Because the mom is more powerful than the baby. 1.00

00:20:37.000 The mom is more developed, has agency, has reason.

00:20:40.000 The baby does not yet have that.

00:20:41.000 So to play that out, the pro-choice argument is a eugenics argument, being whoever is in charge has the power to eliminate whomever they want if they're an inconvenience to you.

00:20:51.000 How is that any morally different than Adolf Hitler and Nazi Germany? 0.83

00:20:56.000 Were all of the Jews a part of Hitler?

00:21:00.000 Well, you know what?

00:21:01.000 It's very interesting. 0.99

00:21:02.000 They called the Jews parasites, and a lot of pro-abortion people call fetuses parasites. 0.96

00:21:09.000 In fact, I had a recent debate where in the literature of the Planned Parenthood, they will call it parasites. 1.00

00:21:15.000 The Jews were called the parasites and they stain on German culture, therefore to be eliminated. 1.00

00:21:21.000 And so the same moral philosophy that governed Nazi Germany is the same moral philosophy that is used for pro-abortion arguments. 1.00

00:21:28.000 I can do what I want as long as I'm more powerful.

00:21:31.000 The argument is that you have control over your own body, which.

00:21:38.000 But again, it's but what about the body that is also in you?

00:21:41.000 Does that baby have rights?

00:21:43.000 No, not inside. 0.55

00:21:45.000 Not while it's inside the body.

00:21:46.000 Doesn't have rights.

00:21:47.000 Wow.

00:21:49.000 Even though you have a heartbeat, brain waves, no rights. 0.99

00:21:54.000 Not while inside of the uterus. 0.50

00:21:58.000 Okay.

00:21:59.000 So.

00:22:00.000 No, I just want to be very...

00:22:03.000 One more thing that I think is really important.

00:22:07.000 If it wasn't killing and/or murder, which of course it is, why is it that you have to stop a heart from beating?

00:22:19.000 What do you mean?

00:22:19.000 So there's a heart beating.

00:22:21.000 Yeah.

00:22:22.000 And then you have to stop the heart beating.

00:22:25.000 Okay.

00:22:26.000 How is that not killing?

00:22:28.000 It could be.

00:22:29.000 Oh, so it is killing.

00:22:30.000 Even if it is, I am still okay with abortion.

00:22:36.000 In a hypothetical experiment, let's just play this out.

00:22:40.000 It's actually not hypothetical.

00:22:41.000 I want to make sure we're clear.

00:22:42.000 Do you think that it should be legal if my wife and I get the pregnancy test back and we find out we're having a woman, a baby girl, and we say we don't want a girl?

00:22:51.000 Should I be able to terminate that baby?

00:22:57.000 It's called sex-selective abortion.

00:22:59.000 Shouldn't it be?

00:23:00.000 I'm aware.

00:23:01.000 India made it illegal to get a screening just because of that.

00:23:06.000 I'm aware.

00:23:07.000 It's legal in America.

00:23:08.000 Should it be?

00:23:09.000 I don't know.

00:23:10.000 Do you think so?

00:23:11.000 Of course not.

00:23:12.000 How about you? 1.00

00:23:14.000 Maybe America should just make gender reveals illegal? 1.00

00:23:19.000 You know, finding out the sex of the baby. 1.00

00:23:23.000 Wait, hold on, one more, one more.

00:23:24.000 I find out that my baby has Down syndrome.

00:23:26.000 Should I be able to terminate the baby?

00:23:30.000 It's your decision.

00:23:37.000 You have no different moral philosophy than Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Hitler. 0.79

00:23:46.000 Next person.

00:23:50.000 It's amazing.

00:23:51.000 The heartlessness of like, oh yeah, just discard them. 0.96

00:23:55.000 When you dehumanize a population, it's easy to murder them. 0.98

00:23:58.000 Hi.

00:23:59.000 You're building me, not you.

00:24:00.000 I know, I know.

00:24:01.000 My name is Zoe.

00:24:03.000 And I wanted to ask you about something you said earlier about how Christianity, the loss of faith of Christianity is shaping our country in a poor way, yes?

00:24:13.000 Yeah?

00:24:14.000 So do you, what do you think about the separation of church and state?

00:24:18.000 Well, it doesn't exist, but...

00:24:20.000 But shouldn't it?

00:24:21.000 No.

00:24:22.000 Why?

00:24:23.000 Well, because it's not constitutional.

00:24:25.000 There's the Establishment Clause and then the Free Expression Clause.

00:24:27.000 But, I mean, let's forget that.

00:24:29.000 Do you agree we should have separation of morality and state?

00:24:31.000 That's the more important question.

00:24:37.000 See, that's an interesting topic because morality is a much broader question than religion.

00:24:41.000 Because I'm thinking specifically with us being from a Western culture, Christian background, and with the First Amendment, freedom of religion is part of that.

00:24:52.000 No, for sure.

00:24:53.000 Yeah, but you have a misunderstanding, I think, and that's okay, of separation of church and state.

00:24:57.000 Basically, it was a single letter.

00:24:58.000 Hold on, what's my misunderstanding?

00:25:00.000 I was getting there.

00:25:01.000 Where is it from?

00:25:01.000 Tell me.

00:25:02.000 What?

00:25:03.000 The phrase.

00:25:04.000 The separation of church and state? 0.70

00:25:06.000 I was about to tell you, but it interrupted me.

00:25:07.000 You want to tell me?

00:25:08.000 Yeah.

00:25:08.000 Okay.

00:25:09.000 It's a single letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1803 to the Danbury Baptist Convention, assuring them that the government would not come after them.

00:25:15.000 It was resurrected by the Warren Court and then the Burger Court to then be used as this fictitious thing that Christianity cannot be involved in our government.

00:25:22.000 That's all fine.

00:25:23.000 You don't have to agree with that.

00:25:24.000 The point is this, is that our laws, our customs, and traditions are built on Judeo-Christian norms, specifically the Ten Commandments.

00:25:30.000 And I want you to tell me which of the Ten Commandments, maybe you agree or disagree, should not be the baseline of the American tradition or country.

00:25:39.000 Because it is the best way to live.

00:25:40.000 The Ten Commandments objectively creates the best societies.

00:25:42.000 You follow the Ten Commandments, your society will flourish.

00:25:45.000 But do you think Christianity is the best thing for a country to follow? 1.00

00:25:49.000 Of course, we have the agency for people to reject it or accept it.

00:25:52.000 It's not by force.

00:25:53.000 That's what a free society is all about.

00:25:55.000 But yes, a Christian society, of course, is the best society.

00:25:58.000 Absolutely.

00:25:59.000 Because this country was once Christian. 1.00

00:26:00.000 It was a way better Christian country than it is now. 1.00

00:26:03.000 And now we are...

00:26:04.000 Why do you think we're the most depressed, suicidal, alcohol-addicted, drug-addicted, aimless country, generation and country in the Western world?

00:26:12.000 It's largely because we're very, very secular.

00:26:18.000 Do you blame that on a loss of faith, or is that something with modern society, with how we have technology is such a big part of our lives, and we're no longer engaging with people as much?

00:26:27.000 It's not necessarily that Christianity is the best, but having community is more important.

00:26:31.000 Well, yeah, I mean, Christianity gives you community, right?

00:26:33.000 You go to church, you have community.

00:26:35.000 But is that the only community?

00:26:36.000 Yeah, I believe it's the best, though.

00:26:38.000 I mean, you seem to have a negative view of Christianity.

00:26:40.000 What is that?

00:26:41.000 I grew up, I went to private Catholic school.

00:26:44.000 Where?

00:26:46.000 Portland, Oregon.

00:26:46.000 Okay.

00:26:48.000 So something with that is...

00:26:50.000 It just rubbed you the wrong way, maybe.

00:26:52.000 It did.

00:26:53.000 That's right.

00:26:54.000 I meet a lot of Catholics that were raised that way, and they don't. 0.96

00:26:56.000 Well, it's the whole Catholic guilt thing.

00:26:57.000 And then I actually, I love Catholic guilt. 0.70

00:27:00.000 I think it's amazing.

00:27:00.000 But yeah.

00:27:02.000 What do you like about it?

00:27:02.000 I think that you should believe there's a God that judges you and that you're not the center of the world and that you have to repent for what you've done wrong and that you need a savior.

00:27:10.000 I think that all that's really important, actually.

00:27:12.000 I think that believing you're the center of the universe creates narcissism and suicidal behavior.

00:27:16.000 And I think that knowing that, like, hey, I've fallen a lot this week and I repent in my failures, in my deeds, what I've done, what I've failed to do is actually really amazing and important.

00:27:25.000 And it requires us to go to the cross.

00:27:26.000 And I think that's really healthy.

00:27:28.000 So do you think that with any sort of downfall or any crime that happens, that if someone repents enough, that they can make up for it?

00:27:34.000 Yes or no?

00:27:34.000 I believe all sins can be forgiven in God's economy and I believe in transformation for sure.

00:27:39.000 That's the promise of Christianity.

00:27:40.000 But do you think we have a guilt problem in this country or do we have a narcissism problem in this country?

00:27:45.000 I think both.

00:27:46.000 Yeah, we don't have a guilt problem in this country.

00:27:47.000 No way.

00:27:48.000 Yeah, we have a narcissism problem.

00:27:50.000 We do not have people walking around feeling guilty for what they've done.

00:27:52.000 We have people that shout their guilt from what is their guilt from the rooftops, bragging about the nonsense that they've done.

00:27:58.000 Right?

00:28:00.000 Yeah.

00:28:00.000 We have people shouting their abortions, live streaming, shoplifting stores, talking about how they don't honor their parents anymore.

00:28:06.000 I think that's bad.

00:28:07.000 And so, again, I believe in a God that loves us and a God that judges us, and both those things are simultaneously.

00:28:11.000 Do you believe in a fair God?

00:28:13.000 I believe in a loving God.

00:28:14.000 And our God is a God of justice and a God of mercy, and a God that loves us so much that gave us a second chance, and more importantly, a chance at eternal life, one that we don't deserve or one that we haven't earned.

00:28:24.000 So, do you think that having Christian values and laws is something that's okay? 0.75

00:28:29.000 Something that's a big topic that's talked about a lot today is like abortion and how there's a lot of laws that are made with this Christian idea.

00:28:36.000 Yeah, again, abolishing abortion is not just a Christian idea.

00:28:40.000 Christopher Hitchens was famously an anti-abortion advocate, okay, and he was an atheist.

00:28:44.000 But yes, I do believe all abortion should be illegal.

00:28:47.000 What do you think about with medical complications?

00:28:50.000 Because you even said yourself that there was a medical complication that almost happened with your daughter.

00:28:55.000 But what about if that was your wife?

00:28:57.000 What if she was so sick?

00:28:59.000 Yeah, well, first of all, doctors lie a lot and they exaggerate that the medical complications are always necessary.

00:29:04.000 In fact, we had a young lady just recently at an event who came and did that who said they need an abortion.

00:29:08.000 She didn't.

00:29:08.000 Secondly, almost always cesarean section can be performed.

00:29:11.000 You know what a cesarean section is, right?

00:29:13.000 A C-section.

00:29:14.000 And then if abortion is medically necessary, then yes, to save the life of the mother.

00:29:17.000 But that's incredibly rare, and even some OBGYNs don't believe that's ever necessary.

00:29:21.000 Really?

00:29:23.000 What about in the topic pregnancy?

00:29:25.000 Yeah, so what do you deliver the baby or have a cesarean section and you take the baby out?

00:29:29.000 You don't terminate it.

00:29:30.000 In topic pregnancy, you don't terminate the baby.

00:29:32.000 You just take it out and it probably won't survive outside of the womb.

00:29:35.000 So you're saying abortion is okay if it's to save a woman, yes?

00:29:39.000 I don't even think it's of the belief that abortion is never medically necessary.

00:29:44.000 Are you a doctor?

00:29:45.000 No, are you?

00:29:46.000 No.

00:29:48.000 Yeah, but there is a community of OBGYNs that agree with me.

00:29:51.000 So is it our decision to make?

00:29:52.000 Is it something that we can decide?

00:29:54.000 That's an interesting question.

00:29:55.000 So should it be something that people have the ability to vote on?

00:29:58.000 Yes or no? 1.00

00:29:59.000 If a woman is able to make that choice? 1.00

00:30:01.000 Should a mom be able to kill her two-year-old daughter? 1.00

00:30:03.000 No. 0.98

00:30:03.000 Are you a doctor? 0.98

00:30:05.000 No.

00:30:06.000 Okay, but why are we able to say it's wrong?

00:30:11.000 So we're able to make moral statements.

00:30:12.000 When the baby's outside the womb, why not why it's in the womb? 0.99

00:30:24.000 Thank you for coming up.

00:30:25.000 Think about that.

00:30:31.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - November 08, 2025

Debates From the Archive - Charlie on Abortion

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