The Charlie Kirk Show - Debates From the Archive — Charlie on Why College is a Scam Part 2

00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.

00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.

00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.

00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.

00:00:19.000 But if the most important thing is doing good, you'll end up purposeful.

00:00:24.000 College is a scam, everybody.

00:00:26.000 You got to stop sending your kids to college.

00:00:27.000 You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.

00:00:31.000 Go start a turning point, USA, college chapter.

00:00:33.000 Go start a turning point, USA, high school chapter.

00:00:35.000 Go find out how your church can get involved.

00:00:37.000 Sign up and become an activist.

00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.

00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life, and I encourage you to do the same.

00:00:45.000 Here I am.

00:00:46.000 Lord, use me.

00:00:48.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:49.000 Here we go.

00:00:56.000 The Charlie Kirk Show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers.

00:01:09.000 I'd like to disagree with you about college as a scam.

00:01:12.000 Okay.

00:01:14.000 Just because there's 50% of people who you say don't need college to get a job, why would it be a scam?

00:01:19.000 There's a social impact about college on America.

00:01:23.000 College is, you know, good.

00:01:26.000 The majority of kids that go to college when they graduate have a lower view of America than when they entered.

00:01:31.000 Do you think that's a troubling thing?

00:01:34.000 I think just changing your opinion doesn't really matter too much.

00:01:37.000 Do you think that college teaches responsibility and hard work?

00:01:42.000 Sure.

00:01:44.000 Okay, well, I find that hard to believe.

00:01:46.000 Why is it that employers are more and more not wanting to hire college graduates and they actually want to hire people that didn't go to college?

00:01:53.000 What employers?

00:01:55.000 You can name them out, man.

00:01:56.000 Walmart just got rid of their, even in their corporate level, so you don't need to go to college.

00:02:00.000 Coke Industries, one of the largest employers in the country from Georgia Pacific Railroad to Dow Chemical.

00:02:05.000 They said we no longer want kids that have gone to college because they end up causing problems because they're super entitled and they're like, oh, what are my pronouns?

00:02:12.000 And they have all this like left-wing nonsense that they've been filled with.

00:02:14.000 Well, then you have engineers, doctors, lawyers, people that are...

00:02:17.000 Sure, we need that, but that's less than 20% of the people that go to college.

00:02:20.000 College is any wrong.

00:02:21.000 I'm not going to say college is a scam, but 25% of people become great people.

00:02:25.000 No?

00:02:25.000 Lawyers, doctors, engineers.

00:02:27.000 That's not what college currently is, though.

00:02:28.000 Again, I'm happy to have you read the book, College is a Scam.

00:02:31.000 I wrote it.

00:02:32.000 I can have a more wordy thing, which is the vast majority of people that go to college are receiving a scam for the money that they're borrowing.

00:02:38.000 The vast majority.

00:02:39.000 Of course there's exceptions.

00:02:40.000 You can make whatever you want with your life.

00:02:43.000 But I mean, when you enter into an enterprise, most people are going to college.

00:02:47.000 Make more money.

00:02:48.000 How many of you guys have to take classes that are a waste of time that you wish you wouldn't have to take?

00:02:51.000 Every single hand.

00:02:52.000 You're being scammed against your will to take classes that make you go further into debt.

00:02:56.000 Why can't you say, I don't want to take this class?

00:02:58.000 Why are you...

00:02:59.000 Why as a customer are you going to get?

00:03:00.000 Can you do a differential equation?

00:03:01.000 You what?

00:03:02.000 Can you do a differential equation?

00:03:04.000 Can I do anything?

00:03:05.000 Can you explain to me the anatomy of a human?

00:03:08.000 Like someone off the top of the bottom.

00:03:09.000 I don't know what psychology is.

00:03:10.000 Yes, I do know what psychology is.

00:03:13.000 Explains it to me.

00:03:14.000 Do you want me to explain psychology?

00:03:15.000 Well, you can't explain it to the depths of a bachelor's degree or a PhD.

00:03:18.000 Well, hold on a second.

00:03:19.000 Time out.

00:03:20.000 I've sat here with no notes, no phone, and debated people with Ph.D.: Because it's your job.

00:03:25.000 I didn't go to college, man.

00:03:25.000 Hold on.

00:03:27.000 That's the point.

00:03:28.000 You can do whatever you want without a college degree.

00:03:30.000 You can listen to podcasts, read books.

00:03:31.000 You don't believe you.

00:03:32.000 Gauss wasn't able to go to the University of Gottingen.

00:03:35.000 That's literally the reason.

00:03:36.000 I can't hear what you said.

00:03:37.000 You know Gauss, right?

00:03:37.000 What did you say?

00:03:39.000 Competition.

00:03:40.000 Yeah, vaguely, sure.

00:03:41.000 Okay.

00:03:41.000 Vaguely.

00:03:42.000 Yes, vaguely, yeah.

00:03:43.000 Do you know who Dylan Freeman is?

00:03:44.000 Do you know who Herbert Marcuse is?

00:03:46.000 Do you know who Thomas Sowell is?

00:03:47.000 Do you use a phone?

00:03:48.000 Do you know who Gubaner Morris is?

00:03:49.000 Well, that's because of Gauss.

00:03:50.000 No, you don't.

00:03:50.000 So I could do gotcha too.

00:03:51.000 Like, where are you trying to get?

00:03:53.000 Going to university is the reason that not everybody was able to become so proficient in mathematics.

00:03:58.000 So here's the thing.

00:03:59.000 Change the world.

00:03:59.000 The majority of kids that go to college are more depressed than a PhD degree are able to perform much better in their field than someone who doesn't.

00:04:07.000 Well, then, if that's the question, if that really is true, if college is this amazing accelerant, then why do so many people?

00:04:13.000 I'm saying it's accelerant.

00:04:15.000 But if you're looking at a science, let me finish, man.

00:04:17.000 And you want to accelerate communication science or have you not done that?

00:04:20.000 You need a degree.

00:04:21.000 All right.

00:04:22.000 Let me make my point.

00:04:24.000 If that's the case, why do half of these kids end up with anywhere between $50,000 to $100,000 in debt and they end up getting a job that says, oh, sorry, you never needed the degree in the first place?

00:04:35.000 Why is that the case?

00:04:36.000 Tell me.

00:04:37.000 People, on average, once going to college, make more money.

00:04:40.000 Hold on, that's not true.

00:04:42.000 They end up getting a job.

00:04:42.000 That is.

00:04:43.000 That's only if they graduate.

00:04:45.000 And it depends on the field of study.

00:04:46.000 Do you know the average college graduate now is getting a job at $61,000 a year.

00:04:51.000 The average plumber after 18 months, $68,000 a year.

00:04:55.000 The average wealth is a year.

00:04:56.000 $72,000 a year.

00:04:58.000 With peers, the plumber didn't go to college.

00:05:00.000 The plumber went to Trader Technical School.

00:05:02.000 There's 11 million job openings that do not require a college degree in this country.

00:05:06.000 11 million plumbers use.

00:05:09.000 I'm sorry, what?

00:05:09.000 Who engineered the stuff plumbers use?

00:05:11.000 I'm sure someone here, I mean, it's like someone with a degree.

00:05:14.000 It's like saying who designed the airplane for the pilot to fly.

00:05:17.000 I mean, someone with a degree that went to college.

00:05:20.000 I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

00:05:22.000 I'm not saying you get rid of all places of higher learning.

00:05:24.000 The way it's currently comprised for you guys, the amount of debt you have to go into, the classes you say.

00:05:28.000 You say don't get rid of places of higher learning, but then you go into directly.

00:05:33.000 You're not debating in good faith because it is a scam.

00:05:35.000 So let me ask you a question.

00:05:36.000 Can you point to other things of American life the last hundred years that have been scams?

00:05:40.000 For example, when someone they run an advertisement, they say, buy these pills because we're going to make you super muscular.

00:05:46.000 And they don't have all the fine print that it might not work and you have to have a monthly subscription.

00:05:50.000 We shut down that business for being a little bit more.

00:05:53.000 That's a little different, though.

00:05:53.000 That's a good question.

00:05:54.000 How is it different?

00:05:54.000 Hold on a second.

00:05:55.000 When you show up to college, do they tell you you have to take all these classes that you didn't sign up for?

00:06:00.000 It said that you're going to have to take all these different classes.

00:06:02.000 Did they tell you that half of you guys would not ever use your degree when you go into your career?

00:06:06.000 How many guys knew that?

00:06:07.000 You guys knew that when you signed up?

00:06:08.000 Well, college is what you make up.

00:06:10.000 You guys are willingly participating in the scam.

00:06:12.000 Good for you.

00:06:13.000 The point is this: most kids know deep down they're getting ripped off.

00:06:17.000 The number one thing I hear from people across the country in corporate America: boy, college is a waste of time.

00:06:22.000 Boy, I wish I never would have gone.

00:06:23.000 Now I have $60,000 in debt, $70,000 in debt.

00:06:26.000 I wanted to start a business, but now I don't have the credit to do it.

00:06:29.000 Instead, we are wasting our most prized possession, our 18 to 22-year-olds, to go stick them at many universities when they shouldn't be here in the first place.

00:06:36.000 And it is a failed project.

00:06:38.000 It is making us poorer.

00:06:40.000 And by the way, just look at the actual numbers over a period of time.

00:06:43.000 Has it worked?

00:06:44.000 Is homeownership now going up for young college graduates?

00:06:46.000 How are we going to blame that on college, though?

00:06:48.000 It's the number of people.

00:06:48.000 There's a lot of different reasons.

00:06:50.000 Most people are not applicable to the people.

00:06:51.000 It's the most equally applicable thing across the board for a generation.

00:06:55.000 And if you look at the average, how much debt do you have to go to school, by the way?

00:06:58.000 None.

00:06:59.000 None.

00:07:00.000 Okay, wow.

00:07:01.000 Are you on scholarship or?

00:07:02.000 Yeah.

00:07:03.000 Okay, so who's paying for your college then?

00:07:05.000 Probably the federal government.

00:07:06.000 Okay, so I'm paying for your college, is what you're saying.

00:07:09.000 My taxes are paying for your college.

00:07:11.000 So wait, do you have a, you're on grant or what?

00:07:15.000 I'm not going to discuss my college finances.

00:07:17.000 Well, now, this is really important.

00:07:18.000 This is why you're so defensive of college.

00:07:20.000 This is why you're so forceful because you don't have to walk around the rest of your life with a $100,000 student loan debt.

00:07:25.000 There's plenty of people that have parts of the business.

00:07:28.000 This explains you perfectly.

00:07:29.000 I, the taxpayer, when I write my check to the IRS, I'm subsidizing your ability to go to college.

00:07:34.000 Okay.

00:07:35.000 And I think that's huge.

00:07:36.000 I'm not going to take it to IRS.

00:07:37.000 I also give money for people to go to college.

00:07:39.000 You should have skin in the game.

00:07:41.000 And you don't right now.

00:07:42.000 You are doing a freeloading thing.

00:07:43.000 Of course you should be defensive of college.

00:07:45.000 I pay taxes.

00:07:46.000 I pay federal taxes.

00:07:47.000 I pay state taxes.

00:07:48.000 I'm sure I pay a little bit more than you, but that's a separate issue.

00:07:51.000 But the point is: this is that.

00:07:52.000 That's probably true.

00:07:53.000 Do you think you pay anywhere close to the tuition value you get at the school?

00:07:56.000 Probably not.

00:07:57.000 Yeah, probably I do.

00:07:58.000 It's like $5,000 a semester.

00:07:59.000 It's a lot of money, but you get a lot out of it.

00:08:02.000 Hold on.

00:08:02.000 How much is it to go to school here?

00:08:03.000 It's around $5,000.

00:08:05.000 So in-state?

00:08:06.000 In-state, yeah.

00:08:06.000 Okay, that includes room and board and tuition?

00:08:09.000 No.

00:08:10.000 Okay, how much does it cost?

00:08:11.000 Room, board, tuition, all of it's around $11,000?

00:08:13.000 $11,000 a semester.

00:08:14.000 So you pay $22,000 a year in taxes?

00:08:17.000 No.

00:08:17.000 Okay, got it.

00:08:18.000 So you're in a tax deficit, which means the U.S. taxpayer is subsidizing your education.

00:08:23.000 That's fine.

00:08:23.000 I'm not faulting you for it, but this is why you're so defensive: you're detached from the price.

00:08:27.000 You're detached from the cost.

00:08:28.000 It's easy to be defensive of something you're not paying for.

00:08:30.000 Yeah, but you have to understand that college is the reason people are able to progress so many fields of science.

00:08:37.000 What amazing breakthroughs of science are you pointing through?

00:08:39.000 The fact that we now say men give birth at the American Medical Association?

00:08:43.000 Or the fact that you say the research for the COVID-19 virus came from universities.

00:08:48.000 There's research here in the neurodivergent.

00:08:49.000 People should be locked in.

00:08:50.000 You imprisoned for what they did.

00:08:52.000 For taking the vaccine?

00:08:53.000 The vaccine has killed hundreds of thousands of people in the Western world.

00:08:57.000 You should get vaccinated.

00:08:59.000 What are you saying?

00:09:00.000 Thank goodness I'm not vaccinated.

00:09:01.000 And hold on.

00:09:02.000 Vaccines are completely healthy.

00:09:04.000 They stop diseases.

00:09:06.000 Wait, you think the COVID shot is safe?

00:09:09.000 You think it's not safe?

00:09:11.000 There's so much research pointing to get the COVID vaccine.

00:09:15.000 I hope you don't die suddenly, man.

00:09:17.000 Thank you so much.

00:09:17.000 Yes.

00:09:19.000 Hello, how are you doing?

00:09:20.000 Good, how are you?

00:09:21.000 Yeah, so.

00:09:24.000 Can you hear me?

00:09:24.000 All good?

00:09:25.000 You gotta move it up.

00:09:26.000 Okay, where that works.

00:09:27.000 Okay.

00:09:28.000 So, scootering around, I saw some people with the shirt that says school, college is a scam.

00:09:34.000 It's quite the statement.

00:09:36.000 And could you elaborate a little bit more on that?

00:09:38.000 Do you believe college is a scam?

00:09:40.000 Yeah, half this audience, if you guys get a job, will end up getting a job that doesn't require a college degree.

00:09:45.000 Okay.

00:09:47.000 Then?

00:09:47.000 So you get a job that requires a college degree.

00:09:52.000 Yeah, so any business that has a 50% rate of a customer being scammed will be shut down by the federal government for disenfranchising their customers.

00:09:59.000 You went to Chile, it's like, hey, 50% chance that our fries are going to give you food poisoning.

00:10:03.000 So if you look at college more than just getting a job, more as educating the population, would you say that's a scam?

00:10:10.000 Well, it depends on what you think college is and what it's become.

00:10:13.000 Secondly, 41% of people that enter college don't graduate.

00:10:16.000 Their dropout rate's insanely high.

00:10:18.000 That's true.

00:10:18.000 Third, I mean, what exactly is being taught here?

00:10:21.000 It's a great question.

00:10:22.000 I mean, are you learning about the beauty of Western civilization and reading the Federalist Papers of Hamilton and Madison and Jay?

00:10:27.000 And do you get a positive view of America or do you spend time on postmodernism of Michelle Foucault and Jacques Derrida and Gene Stefanik and Derek Bell?

00:10:35.000 I'd say more networking.

00:10:37.000 Oh, networking.

00:10:38.000 Yeah.

00:10:39.000 Okay.

00:10:39.000 So.

00:10:39.000 Wait, before we go dive deep into it, what's your definition of a scam?

00:10:43.000 Where a serious proportion of your customers are not given the value proposition that they pay for.

00:10:49.000 Education, right?

00:10:50.000 Which they're not getting.

00:10:51.000 Yeah.

00:10:52.000 You're saying, so therefore.

00:10:53.000 Well, that's the question.

00:10:54.000 You come here to get educated.

00:10:55.000 You guys are going from the wrong thing.

00:10:56.000 This is just a glorified credentialing exercise.

00:10:58.000 Yeah, and that's what you're paying for.

00:11:00.000 Therefore, it's not.

00:11:00.000 Okay, so we're not education.

00:11:02.000 You're just paying for a piece of paper so you can get a job.

00:11:04.000 And education.

00:11:05.000 I mean.

00:11:05.000 Oh, is it education?

00:11:07.000 It is education, sorry.

00:11:09.000 Education.

00:11:10.000 What does that mean to you?

00:11:13.000 Resources, learning how to work, learning how to move around a professional workforce.

00:11:24.000 You need to go to college to learn that?

00:11:26.000 Yes.

00:11:27.000 I think you're being scam, man.

00:11:29.000 Take it from someone who didn't go to college.

00:11:31.000 You don't need any of that stuff.

00:11:32.000 Yeah.

00:11:33.000 Would you say a doctor would need a college degree?

00:11:34.000 Of course, but the vast majority of kids here aren't studying to become a doctor.

00:11:38.000 How many engineers are in here?

00:11:40.000 Yeah.

00:11:40.000 Okay, so how many people that are studying social or liberal sciences?

00:11:44.000 Social sciences.

00:11:45.000 Yeah, a fair amount.

00:11:46.000 Okay, okay.

00:11:47.000 It's a personal choice.

00:11:48.000 The vast majority of kids that go to college are social sciences, psychology, communications.

00:11:53.000 About only 18 to 20% are studying engineering.

00:11:56.000 And you say they shouldn't go to college?

00:11:57.000 Well, it all depends.

00:11:58.000 Again, it depends on what you're studying, why you're there.

00:12:01.000 But you don't, this idea that engineering, you need a four-year degree, you could also just learn to code in six months and work for Salesforce and earn $180,000 a year.

00:12:08.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:12:09.000 Yes, it is true.

00:12:11.000 Coding's hard, Charlie.

00:12:12.000 You have to go to college to learn to code?

00:12:14.000 Not necessarily.

00:12:15.000 Okay, that's my point.

00:12:16.000 I'm not saying it's easy.

00:12:16.000 You just need to go to college.

00:12:18.000 Secondly, what does a manager of a Walmart, a Walmart supercenter make a year?

00:12:21.000 Anybody know?

00:12:22.000 $400,000 a year.

00:12:24.000 $400,000?

00:12:25.000 Yeah, they don't require, yeah, you guys should just go become a manager of a Walmart.

00:12:27.000 It doesn't require a college degree.

00:12:29.000 What does the average plumber make in Scottsdale, Arizona?

00:12:32.000 $115,000 a year.

00:12:34.000 What does the average HVAC technician make in Henderson, Nevada?

00:12:37.000 $75,000 a year.

00:12:39.000 But those don't require college degrees.

00:12:41.000 There are 11 million job openings in this country right now that don't require college degrees.

00:12:46.000 We are over-supplying college.

00:12:48.000 But yeah, you're here taking advantage of college and college students.

00:12:53.000 Am I taking advantage?

00:12:54.000 Is that what I'm doing?

00:12:55.000 You're taking advantage of the space, taking advantage of the students, not in a way of like intellectually taking advantage.

00:13:03.000 It's like going to a place to tell people you're being scammed.

00:13:06.000 If you call that taking advantage, then so be it.

00:13:08.000 Yeah, I mean, you're taking advantage as you're taking my time, you're taking everyone's time.

00:13:12.000 And you're volunteering your time, too.

00:13:14.000 I didn't force you.

00:13:15.000 Okay, sorry.

00:13:17.000 You're taking our time.

00:13:19.000 We're fair enough.

00:13:20.000 I do this also in other places than campuses, too.

00:13:22.000 Yeah, no, but then you're here and then you're saying college is a scam.

00:13:25.000 It is.

00:13:26.000 Half of you guys will end up getting a job where your entire college debt burden means nothing.

00:13:32.000 You will get a job that does not require a college degree at all.

00:13:34.000 You're four years wasted.

00:13:35.000 You shouldn't have come here in the first place.

00:13:37.000 Half.

00:13:38.000 Well, I disagree with you.

00:13:40.000 All right, well, that's fair.

00:13:42.000 I hope it's worth it.

00:13:44.000 This is Lane Schoenberger, Chief Investment Officer and Founding Partner of YReFi.

00:13:49.000 It has been an honor and a privilege to partner with Turning Point and for Charlie to endorse us.

00:13:55.000 His endorsement means the world to us, and we look forward to continuing our partnership with Turning Point for years to come.

00:14:01.000 Now, here Charlie, in his own words, tell you about YReFi.

00:14:04.000 I want to tell you guys about whyRefi.com.

00:14:06.000 That is YREFY.com.

00:14:08.000 WhyReFi is incredible.

00:14:10.000 Private student loan debt in America totals about $300 billion.

00:14:13.000 WhyReFi is refinancing distress or defaulted private student loans?

00:14:17.000 You can finally take control of your student loan situation with a plan that works for your monthly budget.

00:14:21.000 Go to whyrefi.com.

00:14:23.000 That is whyrefi.com.

00:14:24.000 Do you have a co-borrower?

00:14:26.000 WhyReFi can get them released from the loan?

00:14:28.000 You can skip a payment up to 12 times without penalty.

00:14:30.000 It may not be available in all 50 states.

00:14:32.000 Go to whyrefi.com.

00:14:34.000 That is why FY.com.

00:14:37.000 Let's face it, if you have distress or defaulted student loans, it can be overwhelming.

00:14:41.000 Because of private student loan debt, so many people feel stuck.

00:14:44.000 Go to yrefi.com.

00:14:45.000 That is yrefy.com.

00:14:48.000 Private student loan debtreliefyrefi.com.

00:14:53.000 I just want to talk to you about that book.

00:14:55.000 It was a good segue.

00:14:56.000 Did you read it?

00:14:57.000 No.

00:14:57.000 Okay.

00:14:57.000 But I want your thoughts, like just face to face.

00:15:00.000 Why do you think college is a scam?

00:15:01.000 Okay.

00:15:02.000 So half of this audience, if you get a job, will get a job that doesn't require a college degree.

00:15:08.000 41% of kids that enter college will not graduate.

00:15:11.000 And the vast majority of kids, 60 to 70% that go to college, I believe, study things that are completely worthless, meaningless, and don't enrich society at all.

00:15:19.000 But is that the fault of the student or the college?

00:15:23.000 Because I looked in the stats for this.

00:15:25.000 It's usually because they either don't have the finances to support themselves going to college, they don't, they have mental health problems that lead them to dropping out or stress or their family's not supporting them.

00:15:36.000 So is that the fault of college that they pick bad degrees?

00:15:38.000 Is it the fault of the college that they can't support themselves?

00:15:41.000 It's like getting a gym membership and then saying, well, you know, I don't want to actually go work out.

00:15:46.000 It's the fault of the gym.

00:15:48.000 So a good question.

00:15:49.000 So first, the 41% of kids that drop out, the federal government will fully underwrite any four-year college through FAFSA.

00:15:58.000 You know that, through a student loan.

00:15:59.000 Meaning, so if anyone has financial difficulty, that's not really a thing.

00:16:03.000 The federal government will fully grant you your loan to any four-year university, right?

00:16:07.000 So you might not want to take on that student loan burden.

00:16:10.000 You might not want to take that on, but that's number one.

00:16:12.000 Number two, I can't speak to the mental health issues.

00:16:14.000 I doubt that 41% of the kids that graduate and that number all have mental health issues, but maybe that's the case. 1.00

00:16:21.000 I'm not sure.

00:16:21.000 I don't know that number.

00:16:23.000 But let's talk about the institution itself.

00:16:25.000 So everyone in the audience here, how many of you have had to take classes that are a waste of time that you wish you didn't have to take, that are a waste of money, and that every single hand goes up?

00:16:33.000 Look around, look around.

00:16:34.000 Look around.

00:16:35.000 Look around.

00:16:36.000 They're scamming every kid in this audience.

00:16:39.000 They are forcing them to take classes that make them poorer, that take up their time in order to get the credential.

00:16:46.000 That is an institutional scam.

00:16:49.000 And by the way, every other part of life is all about your own customization.

00:16:54.000 Your Netflix account, how you get your burrito bowl from how you dress, your Amazon cart is you are in charge.

00:17:01.000 But you come to college and they say you must go take these three, four, five classes that are very expensive, especially for you out-of-state students, to go further into debt, study things that don't matter, to find jobs that don't exist.

00:17:13.000 That sounds like a scam.

00:17:16.000 At least in my personal experience, right?

00:17:18.000 Like maybe some colleges, they're all like, they all like, they're all like Nambian gender studies, right?

00:17:22.000 They might all be that.

00:17:24.000 But I would say...

00:17:25.000 What are you studying?

00:17:26.000 I'm studying economics.

00:17:27.000 Right, okay.

00:17:28.000 And what I would say is that I have a great levity in choices of classes I want to take.

00:17:34.000 Even if there's a bunch of general education classes, I have a great flexibility in the class I want to take.

00:17:39.000 It's up to the student if they want to take meaningless classes given their credit limit.

00:17:49.000 Okay, but I mean, I would just speculate that this school still has specific criteria of classes, right?

00:17:54.000 Am I correct?

00:17:55.000 Yeah, you have to take a diversity class.

00:17:57.000 That sounds like a scam.

00:18:00.000 They are robbing you to take a diversity class.

00:18:03.000 It's actually not what you typically think.

00:18:05.000 I'm taking students.

00:18:05.000 I think.

00:18:06.000 Is it true?

00:18:07.000 Do you guys have to take a diversity class?

00:18:08.000 No, no, this is true.

00:18:10.000 This is true.

00:18:10.000 All right, so that's a scam.

00:18:11.000 Like, let's be clear: diversity class scams. 1.00

00:18:13.000 Can you define what a scam is?

00:18:15.000 When you are getting ripped off with your money, your time, your resources, either beyond what is a market rate or against your will.

00:18:26.000 So I'll give you an example.

00:18:27.000 If you guys want to fly to New York and Spirit Airlines says we're going to charge you $2,500 for a one-way ticket, I think we'd all could agree flying Spirit Airlines for $2,500 is a scam.

00:18:38.000 Like, you know it when you see it.

00:18:40.000 I mean, it depends on how you view the worth of college.

00:18:43.000 Like, if you've the federal reserve for San Francisco gave a, released a newsletter discussing the actual finances behind is college actually worth it.

00:18:57.000 And they found that by age 40, you recoup all the, the average student recoups all their costs.

00:19:02.000 If they graduate.

00:19:04.000 If they graduate.

00:19:05.000 And even accounting for that, other economists also state.

00:19:10.000 No, so that's an important study.

00:19:12.000 If you take out the top 10%, that's not the case.

00:19:16.000 Top 10% of what?

00:19:17.000 Top 10% of graduates and income earners.

00:19:19.000 So the top 10% end up flourishing with a college degree.

00:19:23.000 The other 90% do not.

00:19:25.000 Do you know that there are 11 million job openings in this country that pay $75,000 a year, that require six weeks of training, that require muscular labor or using your hands?

00:19:37.000 11 million job openings.

00:19:38.000 Now, a lot of you guys are in college because you've been pushed into college saying that you must get the piece of paper, you might get the piece of paper when there are very, they're good paying jobs, 11 million of them, but either your society, your parents, or your own choices are, no, I want to go to college, I want to go after that piece of paper.

00:19:56.000 My contention is that there are way better options out there for a lot of students.

00:20:00.000 Not every student, but almost a lot of other students.

00:20:03.000 Charlie, I think a part of your core rhetoric, there's actually some real truth there that like I think a lot of there's people are getting really just pressured to go to college even if they make poor choices.

00:20:12.000 I'm just saying that even while you're in college, you can make better choices to make yourself a colleague.

00:20:16.000 I totally agree.

00:20:17.000 Do you think most people do?

00:20:21.000 I know some that are making great choices.

00:20:23.000 I know some of them making terrible choices.

00:20:24.000 So let's think about this.

00:20:26.000 Why do you think, let's just say most make terrible choices?

00:20:29.000 Would you say that's the case?

00:20:30.000 I'll give you 40 to 60.

00:20:31.000 Why do you think that is?

00:20:32.000 Because the institution incentivizes bad choices.

00:20:36.000 It's easy to coast and still graduate.

00:20:38.000 It's easy just to check the boxes, right?

00:20:42.000 It's not an institution designed around excellence.

00:20:44.000 It's around let's get you through the mill as quickly as possible, get the piece of paper, pay your bill.

00:20:50.000 Thank you very much.

00:20:53.000 But do you think that the culture around students going to college could change instead around their decision making?

00:20:59.000 I think we need way less kids going to college.

00:21:01.000 The institution itself is so broken, let's be clear.

00:21:03.000 Forced diversity classes, DEI, all that stuff, it's nonsense. 1.00

00:21:07.000 If it was really, college really should be closer to what Hillsdale College is, which is about wisdom, beauty, truth, goodness, not just about job preparedness.

00:21:17.000 But we've lost that completely.

00:21:20.000 If it's about doctors, lawyers, engineers, and the skills, of course.

00:21:24.000 But you know that.

00:21:25.000 It's way beyond that.

00:21:26.000 I mean, people going to, not to pick on you, but you're studying economics.

00:21:30.000 That's terrific.

00:21:30.000 That's a good reason to go to college.

00:21:32.000 It's not the best reason, I'll be honest, but it's a good reason, right?

00:21:35.000 I mean, economics is a serious discipline.

00:21:37.000 It's a real science.

00:21:38.000 You know, we need people really rigorously studying that.

00:21:43.000 We just have a difference of opinion.

00:21:43.000 Okay, let's...

00:21:45.000 I just want to ask you a question.

00:21:46.000 What would you do, like, if you're a policymaker?

00:21:46.000 Sure.

00:21:49.000 I would defund all the colleges in the country.

00:21:51.000 Make them stand on their own two feet.

00:21:54.000 With either tuition or donor money.

00:21:56.000 Taxpayers should not be subsidizing higher education, period.

00:22:00.000 Survive on your own.

00:22:02.000 Thank you.

00:22:02.000 All right.

00:22:03.000 So you said that economics was not the best thing to study, in your opinion.

00:22:08.000 Like when I put my hand up, the question I wanted to ask was like, what do you actually think the best thing to study is?

00:22:13.000 What's the best reason to come to college?

00:22:15.000 Again, if you're going to a super left-wing college and you're trying to just get the piece of paper and credential, I mean, you should go at what the college is, if it's known for, if it's best at.

00:22:24.000 And so I don't know what UW is known for or what it's best at.

00:22:27.000 But I mean, computer science, right?

00:22:28.000 I would imagine the Paul Allen School.

00:22:30.000 Is that right?

00:22:31.000 Am I correct?

00:22:32.000 This is up top of my head.

00:22:33.000 Is that right?

00:22:34.000 It's right here, right?

00:22:34.000 Yeah.

00:22:36.000 But yeah, those fields in particular.

00:22:37.000 But sociology or the life sciences or soft social sciences typically do not have as much of an ROI on the time or the money spent.

00:22:45.000 Economics is in the middle ground there.

00:22:46.000 And so you said that you would defund colleges, state colleges on a national level.

00:22:53.000 Yes.

00:22:53.000 And so basically that would mean that there are no subsidies going out to students, like in-state students or anything like that.

00:23:00.000 I mean, you don't get to determine what the states do, but yes, federally, all federal grants should end completely, yes.

00:23:06.000 Make these institutions survive on their own.

00:23:09.000 If they're so wonderful and they're so great, then make it work.

00:23:13.000 Make your numbers work.

00:23:14.000 And so then, what is the difference between a state college and a privately owned college?

00:23:21.000 Well, so UW gets subsidized in-state tuition here, right?

00:23:25.000 Yeah.

00:23:25.000 So if you go to...

00:23:27.000 That's why I'm paying only $10, $12,000.

00:23:30.000 No, no, for sure.

00:23:31.000 But you're paying it back in taxes, let's be clear, right?

00:23:33.000 So taxes make that possible.

00:23:35.000 And your parents or you paid that in for 18 years, so you get that back.

00:23:39.000 But a private school, I don't know, is there a University of Seattle?

00:23:42.000 Is that a thing?

00:23:43.000 Okay, which I'm guessing is private.

00:23:44.000 Seattle U, yeah.

00:23:45.000 Okay.

00:23:46.000 That they do not get money from Olympia to subsidize the tuition.

00:23:51.000 So they have to stand on their own two feet.

00:23:53.000 Right.

00:23:53.000 So they have higher tuition, and they have to justify to donors how they're doing every single year, but they still might get some federal money.

00:24:00.000 Does that make sense?

00:24:01.000 Yes.

00:24:02.000 And you're saying this on the grounds of required diversity credits and look around.

00:24:07.000 Has college enriched our society?

00:24:10.000 Young people are the most depressed.

00:24:12.000 They're the most anxious, the most alcohol-addicted, drug-addicted, least married, most angry generations.

00:24:18.000 Is that all going to college?

00:24:20.000 Where does it come from, though?

00:24:21.000 I mean, they're the most college-educated, most credentialed generation in history.

00:24:25.000 Where do these ideas come from?

00:24:27.000 I would argue that they come from the fact that there are too many people and not enough jobs.

00:24:32.000 And to stand out of the crowd, to stand out of the masses, you need to get yourself some credentials.

00:24:38.000 Oh, I totally agree.

00:24:38.000 So you want to stand out?

00:24:40.000 Don't go to college.

00:24:42.000 Then you're not going to get hired.

00:24:43.000 Worked for me.

00:24:44.000 Worked for you.

00:24:47.000 Start your own business.

00:24:48.000 By the way, that's not true.

00:24:49.000 Half of employers no longer require a college degree requirement.

00:24:51.000 Well, okay, I'm talking about more specialized jobs.

00:24:54.000 That's very hard.

00:24:55.000 As far as trades go, okay, that makes sense.

00:24:58.000 11 million.

00:24:59.000 11 million job openings for trades.

00:25:00.000 Yeah, you're using your muscles to get your daily wage.

00:25:03.000 Well, it's not just muscles, though.

00:25:05.000 Like, advanced engineering is not easy.

00:25:07.000 That's not just picking up lumber and putting it on one side of the warehouse.

00:25:10.000 That's very specific.

00:25:12.000 And by the way, you can learn to code in eight weeks and earn $100,000 a year.

00:25:16.000 You can.

00:25:16.000 Yeah.

00:25:17.000 Yes.

00:25:18.000 You don't need to go to University of Washington.

00:25:20.000 The thing is, though, the thing is, though, that you are not going to get hired over somebody that has graduated from UW computer science degree.

00:25:27.000 You've been sold a lot.

00:25:28.000 You've been surprised.

00:25:28.000 You'd be really surprised.

00:25:29.000 Employers less and less likely actually want to hire kids from college because they work the least, they're the most entitled, and the quickest to run to HR about problems and mispronouncing people.

00:25:39.000 You'd be surprised.

00:25:39.000 No, it's true for like the big, big firms like Microsoft, Amazon, Starbucks.

00:25:43.000 Like they obviously want you to have a college degree.

00:25:45.000 But mid-major companies, mid-level companies increasingly don't care.

00:25:48.000 They care about can you do the job?

00:25:50.000 Like do you have any sort of skill?

00:25:51.000 Are you going to work really hard?

00:25:52.000 Do you have good character?

00:25:53.000 That makes sense for like startups and such.

00:25:55.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:25:56.000 However.

00:25:57.000 And here's the thing.

00:25:57.000 Sorry to interrupt, but after like five years, nobody cares where you went to college.

00:26:01.000 Sorry to interrupt, but yeah.

00:26:01.000 Just so we're clear.

00:26:02.000 Yeah, all good.

00:26:04.000 I mean, we just have a disagreement here.

00:26:06.000 My whole point is to try to push the boundaries of discussion to make you guys open your eyes and realize you guys are getting ripped off by the institution here.

00:26:15.000 And that's it.

00:26:16.000 Yeah, so I do not believe that I'm getting ripped off because in my field, it is very important, especially with how oversaturated it is right now.

00:26:24.000 I'm studying CS.

00:26:25.000 Computer science.

00:26:26.000 Yes.

00:26:27.000 There's tons of jobs in community.

00:26:28.000 I mean, there might not be though.

00:26:29.000 I mean, there aren't.

00:26:30.000 That's the point.

00:26:31.000 And I might take all your jobs away sometimes, by the way.

00:26:33.000 To stand out, the whole point is that here and elsewhere around the country, we're doing a bunch of research on how computer scientists and like engineers in general are still going to be useful with the rise of AI.

00:26:47.000 Elsewhere, you don't learn stuff like that.

00:26:48.000 You learn the basics of programming.

00:26:50.000 You've maybe heard about the Harvard eight-week course, right, that you were probably talking about just a second ago.

00:26:57.000 However, when you actually do take that course, you don't get a lot of the reasoning skills, a lot of the practical application skills, and a lot of the things that I'm learning every day in my classes.

00:27:08.000 And so the fact that you can learn it in eight weeks and get a job because you have the qualifications, it's true maybe, but in the market that we have right now where the job market is super oversaturated, there are a ton of people getting computer science degrees.

00:27:23.000 These employers, most of the high-level ones that are going to pay you a lot of money, are not looking for somebody who has the base level qualifications.

00:27:31.000 They're looking for more than that.

00:27:32.000 And one more thing is that to get these jobs coming straight out of college, even with a degree in computer science from UW, which UW is known for computer science, you are going to have to have years and years of internship and job experience in most cases.

00:27:47.000 Otherwise, you're going to be doing the base of the base level.

00:27:50.000 Fair enough, right?

00:27:50.000 So we just have a difference of a worldview.

00:27:53.000 I say, why not graduate from high school, learn to code, and go beg for an internship and bypass the college thing completely.

00:28:00.000 You'd be amazed at how willing people are to help with that.

00:28:03.000 Again, you guys have enlargely sold a lie that you need to march through this place for four years and check the boxes and get the piece of paper and it's been dangled in front of you.

00:28:11.000 I'm here to tell you, and I'm only 10 years older than you, that the world doesn't really care before you went to college.

00:28:16.000 They care when you come out of college as your first job.

00:28:19.000 Once you're in the door, it really is rather irrelevant.

00:28:22.000 But we disagree.

00:28:23.000 Okay, that's all right.

00:28:24.000 I have one last question, okay?

00:28:25.000 And just answer this and I'll go.

00:28:27.000 All right. 1.00

00:28:28.000 What is your definition of a woman? 1.00

00:28:31.000 A woman is an adult female with XX chromosomes. 0.99

00:28:36.000 Okay.

00:28:37.000 All right. 1.00

00:28:38.000 What would you say a woman is?

00:28:40.000 I don't want to answer that question.

00:28:41.000 Thank you. 0.98

00:28:42.000 What is a woman? 1.00

00:28:44.000 Take care. 1.00

00:28:45.000 You're studying computer science. 1.00

00:28:47.000 You can't tell me what a woman is? 1.00

00:28:50.000 Okay.

00:28:52.000 Unfortunately, I don't have a question based off any statistics, just based off observations that I've seen.

00:28:56.000 I know you mentioned a lot about students, or that college might be a bit of a waste of time because there's still opportunities that can be found outside of this game.

00:29:03.000 Okay, yeah, there you go.

00:29:05.000 Can you just touch a little bit on like where you think all the students, if every student didn't go to college, where their jobs would be?

00:29:12.000 So sure.

00:29:13.000 Again, they don't tell you guys this because you've been lied to and you guys have been propagandized.

00:29:18.000 But there's 11 million job openings right now in this country that don't require a college degree that pays $75,000 or more a year that only requires six weeks of training.

00:29:25.000 And most of those are in what kind of fields?

00:29:27.000 Advanced engineering, or like just say advanced manufacturing, I'm sorry, working with your hands.

00:29:33.000 Like for example, a manager of a Walmart pays minimum $250,000 a year, upwards of $400,000 a year.

00:29:38.000 Okay, so this is where my question that doesn't come with any stats come into play.

00:29:42.000 The quality of life, so I major in construction management.

00:29:44.000 I'm in the construction field quite often.

00:29:46.000 I see a lot of these people that are doing this hard labor.

00:29:49.000 The way of life that they live often seems kind of miserable.

00:29:52.000 Like they're going home every night, drinking every single day.

00:29:54.000 They miss their family.

00:29:55.000 The people that are in the oil fields, like, how do you kind of, what do you kind of view on that?

00:29:59.000 Yeah, look, muscular labor comes at a big cost.

00:30:01.000 Not every one of those 11 million jobs are the job you're describing.

00:30:05.000 But I would say that if you go visit a data center, they're not exactly having a great life either.

00:30:10.000 They're going home and they're popping Xanaxes and Prozacs and drinking white wine until they pass out.

00:30:14.000 So before you just criticize every muscular labor, not criticize, but say that.

00:30:19.000 But I mean, look, construction management, I'm glad you're studying that.

00:30:22.000 I don't think you need to go to college for that.

00:30:23.000 Yeah, I think my reason for going to college with this right now is because it's just going to put me a few steps ahead where a lot of these people that are in the.

00:30:30.000 You might be right.

00:30:31.000 I don't think you are.

00:30:32.000 I think four years of actually running job sites would be way better than actually sitting in a classroom learning how to run job sites.

00:30:38.000 I'm not trying to criticize you.

00:30:39.000 It's just my opinion.

00:30:40.000 And I come from a construction family.

00:30:42.000 Like nothing replaces experience in construction.

00:30:44.000 No, I completely understand.

00:30:46.000 And so you're going to get your degree and they're going to be like, well, how many job sites have you walked, right?

00:30:50.000 Can you read a floor plan?

00:30:51.000 Which you probably can, right?

00:30:52.000 You know, can you put up drywall?

00:30:54.000 And I'm sure you've done all that stuff.

00:30:55.000 But that's my contention.

00:30:57.000 I just don't, I don't think it's as necessary as people think it is.

00:30:59.000 Yes, I think my point is like for me going to college, I'm going to get into a position like project manager, superintendent, whatever it might be, where a lot of these people, like if I don't go to college, I'm probably going to be doing carpentry, painting, like drywall, all the other stuff that is less desirable.

00:31:14.000 And that obviously comes with more sacrifices.

00:31:15.000 That's my only point.

00:31:17.000 Cool.

00:31:17.000 Thanks, man.

00:31:18.000 Appreciate it.

00:31:19.000 Thank you.

00:31:22.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - October 30, 2025

Debates From the Archive — Charlie on Why College is a Scam Part 2

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