00:00:56.000Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
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00:02:16.000And plus, Turning Point USA drawn a packed crowd at Ohio State yesterday.
00:02:22.000If we could get every young person when they turn 18 to be informed and engaged in our politics, whether or not you agree with me and showing up at the ballot box, that's a good thing, and we want to bring that to our country.
00:03:33.000And what people noticed a while ago when it became glaring in the first Trump administration is they are a far left group.
00:03:40.000And what they exist to do is to label the right as extremist and to say that all the extremism in America is on the right and that hate groups are always on the rise.
00:03:50.000They're always warning the Klan is coming back, Nazis are coming back.
00:03:54.000Killer motorcycle gangs are coming back.
00:03:56.000And so they exist to freak people out about that to get money.
00:03:59.000And they exist to smear people like Charlie, as an example, as one of those hate figures.
00:04:08.000It is, I don't think, a stretch to say, and I'll let Tyler agree or disagree with me, it is not a stretch to say that they legitimately hate white people.
00:04:19.000They are America's top hate group, in my opinion.
00:04:21.000But what we got last night that's incredible and is good news is the SPLC, according to the federal government, in an indictment.
00:04:28.000They were during that period of the first Trump administration spending literally millions of dollars on informants within the far right groups that they claimed to be monitoring and policing against, including in some cases they were paying the leaders of these groups.
00:04:45.000In one case, they were paying tens of thousands of dollars to somebody at the same time they had a page of him on their Hate Watch page saying, This is an extremist that we're fighting against.
00:04:57.000Please give us money to fight against him when they were paying him.
00:05:00.000And so now the federal government has brought wire fraud charges against the SPLC.
00:05:08.000And I think whether these charges are successful or not, it's a great opportunity to expose how the organization really works.
00:05:14.000And I think we're going to find a lot of dirty laundry.
00:05:17.000As our guest Tyler is aware, there's a lot to find.
00:05:22.000You wrote the book Making Hate Pay, and now we know it's way more insidious and sinister than we knew before.
00:05:31.000Yeah, well, we've long expected, we've long suspected that something like this was going on, but we didn't fully know the details of this informant network.
00:05:43.000And you gotta love when the SPLC does damage control by coming out and making known this clandestine informant program.
00:05:54.000But the SPLC, my book title says The Corruption of the Southern Poverty Law Center, because what they do, their stock in trade, is to exaggerate hate.
00:06:05.000They've cultivated this huge network of donors because the SPLC sued Ku Klux Klan groups into non existence, into bankruptcy in the 1980s.
00:06:15.000And they've taken that platform and weaponized it to smear conservative.
00:06:22.000And of course, you know, Charlie is exhibit A, really, after the horrible thing, you know, after the assassination attempt.
00:06:31.000But he wasn't the first one to face violence after the SPLC added him to the hate map.
00:06:36.000They also added the Family Research Council.
00:06:42.000And thankfully, that shooting was largely prevented.
00:06:45.000But the guy who shot up the Family Research Council told the FBI he did so because of the SPLC map.
00:06:53.000So, the SPLC has this system where they put out this hate map with Klan chapters and other white nationalist and evil groups that they say are, you know, they call this the infrastructure of white supremacy in America.
00:07:10.000And this map has gotten ever more insane as I've been covering it.
00:07:16.000So, they used to just have the Family Research Council, then they added Alliance Defending Freedom, they have immigration groups like the Federation on.
00:07:25.000On American immigration reform, groups that warn against radical Islam, like the Center for Security Policy and the David Horowitz Freedom Center.
00:07:34.000And then they started adding, so first they started with some of those groups.
00:07:38.000Then in 2023, they added Moms for Liberty to the hate map.
00:07:43.000And in 2025, they went, you know, that was when they went way off the deep end, putting Turning Point on there, putting Prager U on there.
00:07:52.000I mean, this group creates YouTube videos to inform the public.
00:07:57.000And now they're on a map with chapters of the Ku Klux Klan.
00:08:02.000But the reason it's gotten so bad is partially because the SPLC has this extremely high demand for hate.
00:08:10.000They have this big donor base that thinks the SPLC is the number one source for hate, and so we have to fund them because otherwise the hate is going to proliferate.
00:08:21.000Well, the SPLC has long worked to increase the supply of hate to match that demand.
00:08:28.000Tyler, now we know they've been funding it.
00:09:46.000They cannot actually go on to the merits of why they are right or why we might be wrong.
00:09:52.000Instead, they must smear us with the age old one liner that you are a racist or that you are a hater.
00:09:57.000And they're finally realizing the power of Turning Point USA, which is why they put us on the SPLC list.
00:10:02.000I was Charlie on Laura Ingram's show right after Turning Point was put on the hate map, the so called hate map, which was just a giant grift.
00:10:12.000We're here back at the Y Refi studio here in Phoenix, Arizona, with Tyler O'Neill, senior editor of the Daily Signal and the author of Making Hate Pay, which is, man, that aged like fine wine here, Tyler.
00:10:54.000I mean, Charlottesville is exhibit A of the graft here because we often forget, you know, in the months leading up to Charlottesville, the SPLC had a different hate map.
00:11:05.000They had a Confederate monument map that they put up on their website.
00:11:09.000And they had on this map, I kid you not, they say these monuments are causing turmoil and bloodshed.
00:11:17.000And on that map, they didn't just include, you know, statues of Robert E. Lee, which we can all debate about.
00:11:23.000Like, I could understand people being frustrated a little bit.
00:11:26.000And then there are some statues where they actually, the statue actually said white supremacy.
00:11:31.000As far as I'm concerned, yeah, get rid of that statue.
00:11:34.000Robert E. Lee represents a lot more than that.
00:12:30.000When I spoke to the mom who lost her daughter, it's a consequence of those neo-Nazis and white supremacists come out on fields in America with torches, carrying Nazi banners, singing the same sick anti-Semitic bile that was sung in Germany in the 30s.
00:12:53.000And when her daughter was killed, the press went to the then President Trump and said, what do you think?
00:12:59.000He said, they're very fine people on both sides.
00:13:46.000Obviously, this is coming after January 6th, right?
00:13:49.000So, at white supremacy, this is the line, domestic extremism.
00:13:54.000Now you have to ask the question when Chris Ray says there's no, you know, FBI informancy does this, he can sort of technically say that because, hey, guess what?
00:14:04.000They might have outsourced the informants that were in the crowd that day.
00:14:08.000Do we know anything about that, Tyler?
00:14:10.000That has not yet been confirmed, but I highly suspect that there might be a connection there.
00:14:17.000I think it is, we can't go enough on this issue because Biden repeated it over and over again.
00:14:26.000And by the way, you know, right after Biden got inaugurated, according to the SPLC at least, and now we have documents backing this up, many different agencies in the Biden administration.
00:14:38.000Went to the SPLC asking for advice on how to combat the domestic terrorism threat.
00:14:44.000So the SPLC was funding and then directing the social media posts of and then helping this guy bring people to Charlottesville on one side.
00:14:55.000We talk about very fine people on both sides, which is twisting Trump's words out of context.
00:16:10.000Like the left has long said, remember that emerging, the new emerging majority, they called it, where they said that because of Obama's victory in 2008, suddenly there's going to be this coalition of the ascendant that's always going to keep America in the thrall of the Democratic Party.
00:16:27.000And meanwhile, if you say that they're importing people from foreign countries, if you're having a lot of illegal aliens, if you say, you know, what Biden essentially admitted by opening the border.
00:16:57.000The SPLC has been leading that charge in condemning people for this for forever.
00:17:03.000And it's like, no, I know a lot of people who want to enforce immigration law, who want to make sure that every person who comes here comes here legally.
00:17:12.000For reasons that are honoring our country that have nothing to do with race, frankly.
00:17:16.000But the way that the left has been pushing this constant, like, oh, minorities should take over, we'll have infinite power.
00:17:27.000And part of what we saw with the SPLC is exacerbating racial divisions in the country.
00:17:34.000It was always by design, Tyler O'Neill, senior editor of the Daily Signal and author of the book Making Hate Pay.
00:17:43.000For a lot of Americans, the healthcare system is reactive.
00:17:47.000You get sick first and then you wait for an appointment.
00:17:50.000Then insurance decides what you're allowed to have, and suddenly the medication you need is delayed or it's not available.
00:17:56.000That is where all family pharmacy is different.
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00:18:13.000So you're not reactive anymore, you're already prepared.
00:19:25.000I want to get into what happened to Virginia in the second half of this interview, but tell us why this book, why Alito, and why now?
00:19:34.000Co authored with Kerry Severino a book on Kavanaugh.
00:19:37.000And when we wrote that, we interviewed a ton of high level people, and they were all saying, you know, there's this giant on the court, and nobody ever talks about him Alito.
00:19:46.000And they don't talk about him because he just quietly gets his work done and returns to his suburban home.
00:19:52.000He does not seek celebrity, he's not flashy, but he's been on the court now for 20 years.
00:19:57.000And he's the one who has delivered some of these major landmark opinions, most notably the Dobbs decision that overturned Roe v. Wade.
00:20:06.000Which was an issue that the conservative legal movement had worked on for 50 years.
00:20:12.000And he has this really interesting approach to originalism that is less theoretical or philosophical than some of his colleagues, like Scalia or Thomas, and very practical.
00:20:22.000And when we're at a moment where people are either saying, you have to be super principled, and who cares about the effect of those principles, or we don't care about principles, we just want to win, Alito embodies this blend.
00:20:37.000He's very principled and he thinks about how to strategize toward a win.
00:20:43.000He's very prudential in how he approaches things.
00:20:45.000And I think that's something that the entire country could learn from.
00:20:50.000It's all very good and it is appreciated.
00:20:52.000I think ever since Scalia died, there was a lot of attention on Thomas.
00:20:56.000We have a Clarence Thomas photo behind you.
00:21:00.000He's definitely has that approach of he's often the only guy on the court who will say, We actually should throw out this thing that's 150 years old because it's not in the Constitution.
00:21:09.000But as you say, Alito is the one who authored some of the decisions that we wanted most.
00:21:15.000He's the one who actually, Dobbs, who delivered it.
00:21:17.000I want to ask about something that really caught my attention.
00:21:20.000You were talking about this with Mark Halpern on his show.
00:21:24.000Just the other day, and it was specifically about the Dobbs case, which we've never fully resolved who leaked that decision, as you might remember, that it was leaked before it came out.
00:21:36.000We're not sure who did it, what their motive was.
00:21:38.000I know you have your own theories about it, but you also mentioned something that really caught my attention, which was, and Halpern was theorizing about this, that when it dropped, one of the possible motives was they were trying to, frankly, spark violence against justices, because if one of those justices. were killed or died, the ruling would be canceled.
00:22:00.000If it hadn't come out yet, they'd have to cancel the ruling basically because you wouldn't have the majority anymore.
00:22:04.000And that there was this incident where they were, the justices on the conservative side were asking, can we get this ruling out so that this sort of Damocles isn't hanging us over anymore?
00:22:13.000And you said one of the liberal justices was on board with it, but another justice was not.
00:22:22.000Well, to write Alito, I interviewed nearly 100 people, which means I have a lot of great stories from what was happening On the court or near the court.
00:22:32.000And after the Dobbs decision was leaked, you remember this, people's lives were immediately threatened.
00:22:38.000The justices had to wear bulletproof vests, they had to go to secure locations.
00:22:43.000Left wing groups had published their home addresses where they lived, in some cases, with spouse and children, like young children.
00:22:51.000And people were swarming these places, trying to commit violence or otherwise threaten the justices into changing their mind.
00:22:58.000That is a violation of federal law, by the way.
00:23:05.000But when the justices met in conference, they were shocked to learn that the liberal justices said they were nowhere near having their dissent done.
00:23:14.000So, usually, to issue an opinion, you have the opinion, but you also have the dissent.
00:23:20.000So, some of the justices were like, Hey, we're out here dealing with.
00:23:25.000Left wing violence and attacks, could you wrap it up?
00:23:29.000And they said, oh, well, first off, as you alluded to, Justice Breyer, who's a solid liberal on the court, but was a solid liberal, he left.
00:23:42.000He seemed the most amenable to trying to hurry things.
00:23:45.000And then, according to my sources, Justice Elena Kagan went to his chambers and screamed at him not to accommodate the conservative justices.
00:23:55.000And this is matched by what happened, which is, Even though they'd had many, many, many months to work on this, they said they couldn't possibly get their dissent done until June.
00:24:05.000And then once the dissent was filed, they included in it a footnote to another case that was nowhere near being done yet, knowing that that would further delay the release.
00:24:17.000So there's a pattern here of behavior among the left wing justices, including what we've seen this term, where they're slow walking a decision that they think will hurt the Democrat Party.
00:24:27.000But I mean, I think this is like, Explosive stuff and being able to get in there and tell some of these behind the scenes stories, I think, is illuminating and very different from what left wing media would tell you about what's happening on the court.
00:24:41.000Man, that is a really damning picture of Elena Kagan.
00:25:10.000She has the closest relationship with the reporter who wrote the piece, he was saying.
00:25:15.000And so, but I think most people think it's a clerk.
00:25:18.000It had to be someone who had access to the documents in question that year.
00:25:22.000It's a fairly small universe of people.
00:25:25.000There are some clerks who were, you know, highlighted in the press as having some.
00:25:30.000Particularly strident viewpoints related to abortion and relationships with the reporter in question.
00:25:37.000But I don't think we'll know until that person admits it.
00:25:41.000We won't know for sure until that person admits it, or unless that person admits it, because the investigation that was done was kind of a joke.
00:25:48.000Well, and I would, it sort of would follow maybe it was a clerk for Kagan.
00:25:53.000I mean, you know, if there was already an existing relationship there with the reporter, it kind of makes a lot of sense to me.
00:27:42.000Do you think there's any chance that either of those justices would step down?
00:27:45.000Well, I've long been saying I don't think Alito is going to step down at the end of this term.
00:27:50.000Technically, I don't know, but there was reporting last week that said his chambers or his world is kind of getting the word out that he does not intend to retire.
00:27:59.000Thomas has openly and long said, I'm going out feet first.
00:28:04.000So if you believe that, then it's not either of them.
00:28:08.000I do think, though, that people spend way too much time focusing on these two, and they should not wish either of them to leave the court because they are.
00:28:15.000Far and away, the most solid, consistent originalists on the court, you know, constitutionalists on the court.
00:28:22.000But there is a third justice who is also in his 70s who has served even longer than Justice Alito, and that's Chief Justice John Roberts.
00:28:31.000So I would say if you're trying to pressure, why not go for him?
00:28:35.000And also, I wouldn't be shocked if he stepped down.
00:28:39.000Molly, I think that's a really fascinating.
00:28:41.000I mean, I think we'd all be totally okay if John Roberts stepped down, if he did us a solid and did it.
00:28:47.000Sooner than later, I'd be okay with that as well.
00:28:51.000I'd be curious two names that you would like to see replace any of the justices should they step down.
00:28:57.000Oh, that's one thing that people have a lot that is going for good justices.
00:29:01.000I think Judge Katsis on the DC Circuit is incredible.
00:29:06.000I think Amultha Parr, Andy Oldham, Naomi Rao.
00:29:10.000I mean, there are a lot of really good judges who would be great for this slot.
00:29:15.000I'm going to investigate all of those names you just mentioned.
00:29:19.000Virginia, what is the explanation that you're hearing around the Beltway for why we spend $100 million and it's probably going to be like $150 million on the Cornyn race to beat a conservative Republican in a primary when we can't get investments in a Virginia election that determines four House seats?
00:29:42.000It's long been known that the Virginia Republican Party could use a lot of assistance, but this was a national issue.
00:29:49.000Who controls the House of Representatives?
00:29:52.000And still, you didn't see much national interest.
00:29:54.000There was almost no money going into this.
00:29:57.000There wasn't the type of ballot chase operation that you need to have in order to actually get the ballots in the box that are going to matter.
00:30:05.000And this was truly a winnable situation.
00:30:09.000We were, I live in Virginia, deluged with ads and money from the left to try to pass this.
00:31:40.000If you look at the map, I think we have the image here.
00:31:42.000You can visually see that the entire state of Virginia voted more to the right on this, except for very small little sections of Northern Virginia.
00:31:52.000And then there was one other county there.
00:31:54.000But, Blake, what do you make of this, and what are the takeaways?
00:31:59.000I mean, the big takeaways, first of all, I feel like I've lived through this four or five times now where Virginia has been written off.
00:32:08.000And then we end up losing a pretty important race very narrowly.
00:32:14.000So it happened, I think, I remember, I think it was Ken Cuccinelli.
00:32:40.000That were effectively up for grabs in a close race.
00:32:44.000And I can't help but wonder if Republicans in DC liked the idea of not contesting this.
00:32:52.000I think, remember, the whole push to redraw some of the House seats in other states, in Texas, in Florida, I think it was pushed along.
00:33:02.000It was pushed along by President Trump.
00:33:03.000I think maybe some of them in DC liked the idea of him getting egg on his face by losing this one and saying, see, we told you so, when this is a lot more extreme than anything they did in Texas or Florida.
00:33:14.000It's a much more radical mutation of the map.
00:33:18.000It's a much more aggressive grab in terms of what share of seats they're giving themselves.
00:33:54.000You're spending $100 million in a Texas.
00:33:58.000Senate primary in a deep red state that's still a deep red state, where Ken has, by the way, been a supporter of the president, is totally on board with MAGA, and has proven that he can win statewide races.
00:34:09.000But no, $100 million gets dumped into Texas.
00:34:13.000And by the way, here's the dirty little secret.
00:34:15.000When you pour money into these big ad buys in a state like Texas, guess who's getting paid?
00:34:19.000The media consultants, the media buyers, they're taking a big chunk right off the top.
00:34:29.000And I think the Democrats, what, spent like $60, $70 million on this campaign?
00:34:32.000And they love ad buys, which you can look at the numbers, and a lot of ads don't have a big impact.
00:34:37.000You can spend a ton of money to move things, not a lot.
00:34:40.000And yeah, as you say, they don't like nearly as much the distributed idea, like what Turning Point Action does, of getting lots of get out the vote people on the ground, have people who know their neighbors are interacting with them.
00:34:51.000That doesn't go through the same consultant apparatus as everything else.
00:34:57.000And I will tell you that we, you know, Tyler would tell the story.
00:35:02.000I'll let him tell it because he was more directly involved.
00:35:05.000He put together a whole group of people that are based in Virginia, that are based in D.C., conservative groups, and put a proposal together to train those groups to deploy our ballot chase efforts the way we do it and the timeframe it would take.
00:35:21.000And there was a big proposal put forward, and it was turned down, and people didn't want to fund it.
00:35:33.000You know, until our side invests the same amount of money and enthusiasm in GOTV, in canvassing, in voter relationships, voter reg, as it does with consultants and media buyers, we're going to continue to come up just short.
00:35:47.000And the country's going to really be damaged as a result.
00:35:52.000We have to be demanding more ballot chase, more canvassing.
00:35:55.000Because, yeah, you got to have the media spend.
00:35:57.000You got to have the air war and the ground war.
00:35:59.000They have to come together in the medium, in the middle.
00:36:02.000Because, listen, you can't do one or the other.
00:36:04.000And by the way, if you're going to continually.
00:36:05.000Get outspent when you're sitting on mountains of cash, which, if you kind of tally it together, all these packs and all these groups on the right, we have a lot of cash right now.
00:36:14.000And you could say, Oh, we're keeping our powder dry for the midterms.
00:36:22.000And also, if they're not spending it on other things and we don't see that being spent, now is the time you do it.
00:36:28.000Every race that goes badly, you have the people who realize something's wrong two weeks out and they come in and say, Where can we spend the money?
00:36:35.000And as Charlie could tell you, You spend it now.
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00:38:36.000Ten missing scientists with access to classified stuff, nuclear material, aerospace.
00:38:41.000They've all gone missing or turned up dead in the last couple months.
00:38:45.000Well, I hope it's random, but we're going to know in the next week and a half.
00:38:49.000I just left a meeting on that subject.
00:38:51.000So, pretty serious stuff, but we're going to be not.
00:38:54.000Hopefully, I don't know, coincidence, whatever you want to call it.
00:38:59.000Some of them were very important people, and we're going to look at it over the next.
00:39:04.000All right, so this story has been really getting people's attention because it is seemingly very concerning.
00:39:13.000Here to help us unpack that is House Oversight Chairman Representative James Comer from the great state of Kentucky.
00:39:19.000He and Eric Burleson, Representative Burleson, are leading the charge to get answers here.
00:39:47.000Well, when it's first described to you, if you haven't studied it, you think, oh, that's not possible.
00:39:53.000If that had been happening, we would have learned about it by now.
00:39:56.000But what happened is there was such a space of nearly three years.
00:40:01.000You know, something happened about every three months or whatever, and you're up to 10 either missing or deceased, all connected with our nuclear program, all very important scientists and people that contribute to the intellectual property of our superior nuclear program, which is the envy of the world.
00:40:20.000And then you think, well, I wonder what the government's been doing about it.
00:40:24.000And I could tell you just in the week since we started requesting information and announcing our investigation, I'm pretty confident that the government.
00:40:33.000Really wasn't even aware that this was happening.
00:40:36.000I'm almost positive the FBI wasn't aware.
00:40:39.000Now, some of the agencies, NASA and Department of Energy, will say they've been looking into it.
00:40:43.000Well, they don't even have a formal team of investigators to look into something like this.
00:40:49.000So, we're concerned that this has just now become realized by our investigative authorities, specifically the FBI.
00:40:59.000We feel that we can play a role in this investigation because what I found as chairman of the Oversight Committee over the last three years.
00:41:07.000spanning two administrations is a lot of these government agencies never share information with each other.
00:41:12.000So we're trying to get all that information in from NASA, from the Department of Energy, from the FBI, from the Department of War to see if there are some obvious missing links that we can piece this together and try to find a solution.
00:41:26.000So, Congressman, do you want to lay out what you think is the most alarming or the most interesting connection?
00:41:33.000Because I'm a little more skeptical compared to a lot of people.
00:41:36.000I've been looking at the specific cases, and I guess I'm not quite sold yet.
00:41:41.000I know, as you said, there's the line they're all connected to the nuclear program, but I feel like that's, if it's true, it's only true in the most broad based way.
00:41:50.000Like, I know one of these 11, he worked at Novartis, a pharmacy company.
00:42:00.000It's an interesting case, but she was an administrative assistant at Los Alamos.
00:42:04.000And her family says she didn't have access to classified information.
00:42:07.000So give us the strong case for there being something here and it's not people sort of finding patterns where they don't necessarily exist.
00:42:16.000Well, I hope there's nothing sinister here.
00:42:18.000I just don't believe the odds are good enough to have the level of confidence that this is unrelated.
00:42:28.000And if you look at the way that our adversaries operate, let's say this is one of the usual suspects.
00:42:35.000You always have to suspect China, Russia, Iran, North Korea of any type of missions.
00:42:42.000But anytime there's a major cyber breach, it's always some small country.
00:42:47.000That most people would have a hard time identifying on the map.
00:42:51.000So, you know, there are lots of countries that would love to have our intellectual property.
00:42:56.000There are lots of countries that would love to do things to lead us to think that there's something sinister there and people are trying to get our nuclear capabilities and create uncertainty and unrest within the government of the United States.
00:43:11.000So, what I've been concerned about is that no one's really looked into this.
00:43:16.000Just in the last few days, has this reached the radar of the FBI?
00:43:22.000Uh, we want to look at all the pieces to see.
00:43:34.000I'm like, i'm confident it's not aliens.
00:43:37.000But at the end of the day uh, there are countries that have a history of trying to do things like this and maybe, if for no other reason than to spook people into working in the nuclear program, I don't know there are lots of reasons why someone could be doing this or a country could be behind this, that that wasn't just to steal the intellectual property of the nuclear program.
00:44:01.000I, I agree that administrative assistant shouldn't have had any classified information or shouldn't have had any type of intellectual property that uh, that would be unknown to a foreign country.
00:44:13.000However if, if that person was an easy target, if your goal is to scare or spook anyone from participating in the nuclear program, then maybe your goal was achieved.
00:46:22.000And he might have had this motive that his life hadn't panned out the way he wanted.
00:46:26.000And this guy who was in his classes, they were both from Portugal, he maybe thought this guy had the life I should have had snapped, committed a heinous murder.
00:46:55.000Well, when NASA says they're investigating this, there's no agency or department or division within NASA equipped to investigate something like this.
00:47:05.000So we believe that sometimes you can figure things out by getting all the information in one place.
00:47:12.000And the government has a terrible history of doing that, dating all the way back to September 11th.
00:47:16.000Different agencies knew different things about those terrorists.
00:47:19.000If they had shared the information, then we might have prevented September 11th.
00:47:22.000So we don't know for sure if something sinister happened here, but we're sure going to do everything in our ability to try to figure it out.
00:47:30.000Well, again, thank you for leading the charge here, Congressman.
00:48:42.000But he's also written songs for LGBTQ shows like Queer Eye.
00:48:47.000He co wrote a song entitled Y'all Means Y'all with lyrics like If you're torn between the X's and the Y's, you ain't got to play the hand you're dealt.
00:51:37.000They have since set their accounts to private, but Shane McAnally has talked to Daily Mail defending his post saying people have been saying some awful things.
00:53:42.000Now, if you are a couple that is struggling with, and you're a male and a female, and you're struggling, With fertility issues, okay, you have my grace.
00:53:50.000I don't love it, but I'm going to extend a lot more grace to that situation than I am a gay couple.
00:53:56.000And the reason I think that this has sparked such a backlash, Blake, is because it's the same thing for me as seeing a gay couple kiss on like a movie or a TV show.
00:54:07.000Instantly gives, I have a visceral reaction to it.
00:55:02.000And every waking moment, every spare moment that he could, he had a book open, he had a podcast open, he had a Hillsdale online course open.
00:55:12.000He was always diving into new ideas, absorbing information, studying up and sharpening his skills.
00:55:17.000That's why I love Dr. Arne at Hillsdale College.
00:55:20.000They shared a deep understanding that learning is the key to shaping your character, creating courage.
00:55:39.000With Hillsdale's free online courses, you can follow in his footsteps, learning from real professors and challenging yourself with rigorous coursework that's free and accessible to anybody who's willing to learn.
00:55:51.000A great place to start is their brand new course on logic and rhetoric.
00:55:55.000Learn from Hillsdale professors how to speak masterfully.
00:55:58.000Make a powerful point and see how clear thinking leads to better decision making and more effective speech.
00:56:30.000He's the author of Return of the God Hypothesis, which we have right here because we literally keep his books in our office because they're that important.
00:56:39.000And the book has been the inspiration of a new film that we want to talk about.
00:56:44.000So without further ado, Dr. Meyer, welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.
00:56:49.000I really appreciate the opportunity to talk about all this with your audience.
00:56:54.000Yeah, I mean, listen, so The Story of Everything is a feature documentary adaptation of Return of the God Hypothesis, the book that I have right here.
00:57:02.000I remember when this came out and everybody was talking about it because it's kind of like a science first look at creation, right?
00:57:10.000A lot of times people will argue for the, you know, I guess intelligent design through a theological lens, but you are doing it with a science first perspective.
00:57:19.000Why don't you tell us about that in this film and then we'll play the trailer so people, it's really well done.
00:57:25.000Well, yeah, the book and the film describe and tell the story of the discovery of three major discoveries that reveal the reality of a transcendent and active mind behind the universe.
00:57:40.000In other words, an intelligent agent with the attributes that traditional theists, Jews, and Christians have long ascribed to God.
00:57:48.000So I call this the return of the God hypothesis, and that's what the film is about.
00:57:52.000Well, I mean, I want to get into what those three.
00:57:56.000Discoveries are, but let's play the trailer because I will tell you a bunch of people sent me this and we got to get you on to do this.
00:58:03.000And I was like, Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay.
00:58:05.000And then I looked at the trailer and I was like, Wow, this is like somebody has done a phenomenal job executing on this vision.
00:59:28.000Well, the embarrassing thing about the film project is that with some delays that we encountered during the final phases of COVID, it actually took Five years to produce the film.
00:59:59.000And it's the story of two stories, the story of two competing views of reality and how modern science has revealed that one of those stories clearly provides a better explanation for what we see.
01:00:10.000The two stories are the Thing that we've all heard that life arose and the universe arose from undirected material processes, or as Richard Dawkins put it, from blind, pitiless indifference.
01:00:22.000And the other story is that instead there's a mind, a creator, a creative intelligence behind the universe, and we can tell by looking at, as St. Paul put it, the things that are made.
01:00:33.000So it's, but it is, as you say, a science first approach, and it involved the producers did a fantastic job.
01:00:46.000They take you deep out into space, deep into the interior workings of the cell.
01:00:51.000You can see the digital information in the DNA, what it does.
01:00:55.000You can see the nanotechnology, the little miniature machines inside the cell.
01:00:59.000So it's a very powerful visual representation of the evidence.
01:01:04.000There's a very strong argument that runs through it, but it's also just some very compelling storytelling, not only about the story of the scientists making the discoveries that are pointing to God.
01:01:16.000But how those discoveries have affected their own thinking and their own lives, and in many cases have affected a kind of intellectual first and sometimes even religious conversion among the scientists who have encountered these really powerful evidences for a mind behind the universe.
01:01:33.000Yeah, I remember actually the, I forget his name, you probably know it, doctor, but the guy who was sort of first behind the mapping of the human genome.
01:01:47.000And there is something really profound.
01:01:49.000Like creation is so intricate and beautiful and complex that the people that study it most deeply tend to be persuaded that there is a creator.
01:02:33.000They look back at that beautiful blue jewel through the window in their space capsule.
01:02:38.000And if they were religious before, they become even more religious.
01:02:43.000And if they weren't, they become open to it.
01:02:46.000Kind of experience of a space flight epiphany, if you will.
01:02:51.000It goes back to the astronauts in the Apollo mission in Apollo 8.
01:02:59.000They read the Bible, they read the biblical account of creation from Genesis on Christmas Day, 1968.
01:03:07.000The current head of NASA, the administrator of NASA, Jared Isaacsman, has said that his time in space convinced him that, quote, the heavens declare the glory of God.
01:03:17.000And this is one of the passages that the current astronauts emphasized as a result of their experience.
01:03:24.000So, yeah, it's kind of a cool thing, really.
01:03:30.000And in addition to the kind of intuitive sense that there must be something behind what they see, because you look at that beautiful blue jewel from space, and then there's the darkness behind it.
01:03:42.000And as far as we look, we know no planets that are anywhere near as friendly to life.
01:03:51.000And then when you analyze it from the standpoint of physics, as far as all the what are called fine tuning parameters, all the parameters that have to be exactly right in our local solar system and in the universe itself to make life possible, the most obvious implication of all that fine tuning is that there must have been a fine tuner.
01:04:11.000And this is one of the things we cover in the film.
01:04:14.000Let's elaborate on one of the points you mentioned in passing.
01:04:17.000So you mentioned the big picture stuff about our planet and what's exceptional about it.
01:04:21.000Also, you said, as you put it, the nanotechnology in cells, at the smallest level that we can look at, that seems to defy comprehension as something that could arise naturally.
01:04:36.000I've been elaborating on that for about 30 years now.
01:04:39.000So you better be careful what you ask for.
01:04:42.000But yeah, the big discoveries of modern molecular biology have shown that once you open up the inside of the cell, it's not at all what people thought in Darwin's time.
01:04:53.000Darwin's so called bulldog, his Great proponent Thomas Henry Huxley in the 1860s said that the cell is a simple homogeneous globule of undifferentiated protoplasm.
01:05:08.000And if you think that's what the cell, the simplest unit of life, the smallest unit of life is, it's pretty easy to imagine how a few simple chemical reactions might produce something like that.
01:05:22.000Instead, starting in the 1950s and 60s, in a period of rapid exploration and discovery in the field of molecular biology, scientists began to discover that inside the cell, there are first of all large information bearing molecules, the most famous of which is the DNA molecule.
01:05:43.000Watson and Crick elucidated its structure in 1953.
01:05:47.000In 1958, Crick had a kind of epiphany and realized.
01:05:51.000That along the spine of the DNA molecule, there are subunits, chemical subunits that are functioning just like alphabetic characters in a written text or zeros and ones in a section of machine code.
01:06:04.000This is a stop press moment in the history of science and the history of biology, because prior to that, people were trying to explain the origin of life from simple chemistry.
01:06:15.000They were trying to get from chemistry to chemistry.
01:06:17.000Now, after Crick, we realize you've got to get from chemistry to code.
01:06:21.000How does the chemistry, how do undirected chemical processes?
01:06:25.000Produce an elaborate information storage, transmission, and processing system, which is what's been discovered.
01:06:31.000And instead, we know chemistry doesn't do this, but we do know something that does make code, and that is intelligence.
01:06:38.000Bill Gates says that the DNA is like a software program, but much more complex than any we've ever created.
01:06:47.000Richard Dawkins has said the same thing.
01:06:49.000Doctor, when does the film come out, and how do people watch it?
01:07:41.000I do encourage people to see it in theaters, though, because it was really the producers made this with a big screen in mind.
01:07:48.000It is, it's just, I didn't see it on a big screen until a recent screening, and it's just gorgeous.
01:07:54.000There's 400 visual effects, great cinematography.
01:07:58.000You go deep, way out into space, and then deep into the interior of the cell, and there's a fantastic story that goes with all the beautiful imagery.
01:08:05.000Yeah, and I encourage everybody take your friends, buy a bunch of tickets, take your friends, churches, do this with, you know, it doesn't have to be a church.
01:08:13.000It could just be you've got that friend that you've been working on for a while and they're open.
01:08:17.000And they just need a little intellectual equipping to get over the hump.
01:08:22.000So we talked about this Artemis 2 clip, and I just really want to play it for people because I just thought it was so beautiful the way he described it.
01:08:33.000On the ship, I'm not a, I'm not really religious person, but there was just no other avenue for me to, to explain anything or to experience anything.
01:08:42.000So I asked for the chaplain on the Navy ship to just come visit us for a minute.
01:08:46.000And when that man walked in, I'd never met him before in my life, but I saw the cross on his, on his collar and I just, I broke down in tears.
01:08:52.000Like the, it's very hard to fully grasp what we just went through.
01:08:57.000And in these short, you just said it's been a week since we've been back, but it's been a week of medical testing, physical testing, doctors.
01:09:11.000And when the sun eclipsed behind the moon, I think all four of us turned to Victor and I said, I don't think humanity has evolved to the point of being able to comprehend what we're looking at right now because it was otherworldly.
01:09:30.000Well, I was just going to say that connects with a very strong theme in the film, which is the The fine tuning of the universe that allows for life and the fine tuning of our planetary system that makes life on planet Earth possible.
01:09:45.000We have a section in the film precisely on what they have been seeing and describing, which is all the intricate parameters that were set up just right to make life on planet Earth possible and some beautiful, beautiful photography.
01:10:00.000One of those parameters is actually the possibility of an eclipse.
01:10:06.000The distance between the Earth and the sun.
01:10:09.000Exactly matches geometrically what you need given the size of the moon in relation to the earth to make eclipses possible, and that we can have eclipses is one of the things that makes it possible for us to make basic discoveries about the universe and the cosmos.
01:10:25.000So, there's a book called The Privileged Planet that's co authored by Guillermo Gonzalez and Jay Richards.
01:10:31.000Jay Richards is featured in the film describing this, and that book makes the argument that not only is our planetary system fine tuned or designed for life.
01:10:41.000It's fine tuned and designed for us to be able to make scientific discoveries, that is, to know something about the cosmos and its creator.
01:10:50.000So, the intuitive response of the astronauts is well supported by scientific evidence about just how incredibly designed our planetary system is.
01:11:01.000I have so many questions for you, Dr. Meyer, and we've got two minutes left in this segment, but it's.
01:11:08.000It's like one question I would have for you is if somebody who's not a believer came to you and said, I don't believe because we're all just primordial goo, the product of, and we've evolved and all this stuff.
01:11:22.000What's your first reaction, your first answer?
01:11:25.000Well, I go right back to where we were talking, to the subject we were talking about before the break, which is that in the interior of the cell, you have these information bearing molecules where the information is.
01:11:39.000Being used by the cell to direct the construction of the proteins and the protein nanomachines that make it possible for living organisms to stay alive.
01:11:49.000And we know from our experience that information, computer code, always comes from a programmer.
01:11:56.000And in fact, whenever we see information, we trace it back to its source, whether we're talking about the information in a computer program or in a section in a book or a hieroglyphic inscription or the information that we're transmitting back and forth between ourselves right now.
01:12:13.000Information always issues or comes ultimately from a mind.
01:12:17.000So, the discovery of information at the foundation of life in every living cell is a powerful indicator of the activity of a designing mind in the origin and history of life itself.
01:12:28.000We wouldn't attempt to explain the origin of the iPhone apart from the mind of Steve Jobs, right?
01:12:35.000So, the fact that we can't see the creator doesn't mean that we might not be in possession of an artifact or of a system that is bearing witness to.