The Charlie Kirk Show - Evolved, or Created?

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, you were created.

00:00:03.000 That's right, you were created.

00:00:05.000 We talk with a doctor here who understands the creation argument better than almost anybody else.

00:00:12.000 He's from the Institute for Creation Research, icr.org.

00:00:15.000 That is icr.org.

00:00:17.000 You got to check it out.

00:00:18.000 Wonderful organization.

00:00:20.000 And we talk about it all.

00:00:21.000 What are the big arguments for evolution?

00:00:24.000 Is evolution true?

00:00:25.000 Icr.org.

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00:03:04.000 President of the Institute of Creation, Dr. Randy Galuzza.

00:03:09.000 I hope I said that correctly.

00:03:11.000 Doctor, welcome to the program.

00:03:12.000 Well, thank you very much.

00:03:14.000 Thank you for the invitation.

00:03:16.000 Well, so, Doctor, we are connected by my very good friend, Tom, and he is a big fan of your work.

00:03:21.000 And it is a perfect opportunity to have you on for this entire hour because of the viral clip that Tucker Carlson had on the Joe Rogan podcast.

00:03:31.000 I want to play that piece of tape.

00:03:32.000 It's Cut 76 to lay the foundation for our discussion here because now we have tens of millions of people questioning Darwin, questioning what they have been taught in school, which I think is a terrific thing.

00:03:44.000 Let's play Cut 76.

00:03:47.000 We don't think people are important, then what do we think is important?

00:03:50.000 I guess that's what I'm saying.

00:03:51.000 Necessarily that we don't think people are important, but if evolution is real and if there is this constant, I don't know, but it's visible.

00:04:01.000 Like you can measure it in certain animals.

00:04:04.000 You can measure adaptation.

00:04:05.000 Yeah.

00:04:06.000 But there's no evidence that, in fact, I think we've kind of given up on the idea of evolution.

00:04:09.000 The theory of evolution as articulated by Darwin is like kind of not true.

00:04:13.000 In what sense?

00:04:15.000 Well, in the most basic sense, the idea that, you know, all life emerged from a single cell organism and over time, and there would be a fossil record of that, and there's not.

00:04:25.000 There's not a fossil record of transitionary species, like species that are adapting to its environment.

00:04:32.000 There's tons of record of adaptation, and you see it in your own life.

00:04:36.000 I mean, I have a lot of dogs.

00:04:37.000 I see adaptation in dogs, you know, through the litter to litter.

00:04:43.000 But no, there's no evidence at all that, none, zero, that, you know, people, you know, evolve seamlessly from a single-cell amoeba.

00:04:53.000 No, there's not.

00:04:54.000 There's not.

00:04:54.000 There's no chain in the fossil record of that at all.

00:04:57.000 And I can't even guess.

00:04:58.000 I mean, I have my own theories on it, but they're not proven.

00:05:00.000 What are your theories?

00:05:02.000 God created people, you know, distinctly.

00:05:05.000 Doctor, your reaction to that dialogue is Tucker Carlson correct.

00:05:11.000 Yes, Tucker Carlson is totally on target.

00:05:14.000 And even though some people will, after the interview, were saying he's somewhat irrational, actually, he's presenting the scientific case, which really out there in the science.

00:05:24.000 When he says there's no transitional forms, you know, I suppose he's meaning there's no undisputed transitional forms.

00:05:31.000 When he says there's really no good evidence that we evolve from a single-cell organism over time, he's really summing it up very, very well.

00:05:39.000 So let's get into that.

00:05:42.000 So let's make the case.

00:05:43.000 Traditionally, the evolution argument based on Darwin's hypothesis is that there is evolutionary and species change over long periods of time.

00:05:54.000 Tucker said that we can observe adaptation.

00:05:58.000 For example, that if you are in a colder climate or a warmer climate and you're a bird, you might have slight adjustments or slight changes.

00:06:06.000 What is the difference between adaptation and evolution?

00:06:10.000 There's a huge difference between that.

00:06:12.000 And Tucker was trying to really lay that out.

00:06:15.000 Adaptation is the ability of a species to really modify itself.

00:06:19.000 It's a highly engineered, highly regulated mechanism that is within organisms that spans everything from, you know, very rapid physiological changes that we have to acclimate, you know, how we acclimatize to things.

00:06:33.000 Like you just mentioned, you might go to a cold climate and acclimate to that or to a high altitude and acclimate to that.

00:06:40.000 But then also organisms are able to sense what's in their environment and adjust to that.

00:06:45.000 It's an internal thing, not an external thing.

00:06:48.000 And increasing evidence indicates that they're able to pass on a lot of that information to their offspring so that offspring are actually born into their environment already adapted to that.

00:07:00.000 And adaptation means you're fitting your traits to specific environmental challenges and you're able to solve those kinds of challenges there.

00:07:08.000 Evolution, to really nail it down and what everybody's really talking about, what the argument is really over is not over the fact that organisms change.

00:07:18.000 Everybody knows that, but it's whether the theory says that we actually descend that all of life, all of the diversity of life on Earth came from a single-celled organism that was fractioned out over time as they reproduced through terrible struggles to survive and that the fittest lived passing on their genes which fit them to their environments,

00:07:42.000 which slowly, slowly led to the diversity of life on Earth as they became fit to their environments.

00:07:49.000 And so evolutionary theory is really supposed to explain, one, why organisms look so incredibly designed, but didn't need a designer.

00:07:58.000 And two, the diversity of life on earth, not just simply adaptation.

00:08:05.000 Supposed to explain design, and it's supposed to explain the diversity of life on earth.

00:08:10.000 And that's what evolutionary theory is in.

00:08:12.000 And that's what the disagreement is over: whether, one, the theory can actually do that.

00:08:16.000 And two, whether there's any evidence that any of that actually happened.

00:08:20.000 So I wanted to speak clear.

00:08:21.000 And in your expertise, there is no evidence to show other than faith that species have evolved from one to the other.

00:08:30.000 Is that correct?

00:08:32.000 Exactly.

00:08:33.000 Faith is it.

00:08:34.000 And it's really faith in a type of religious faith because you're holding faith for information that's going to be coming long after you're dead.

00:08:43.000 Nobody is seeing this information coming right now.

00:08:46.000 And so you're holding it by faith that if it's not here, it will be here.

00:08:51.000 And really what Tucker could have said, but I suppose he's not really up to speed on some of the details of this argument.

00:08:57.000 He could have said first, there's not a scientific paper published anywhere, anywhere on the planet, none, zero, to use his words, that shows a natural origin of life.

00:09:08.000 So if evolution is true, you got to get life going naturally without God.

00:09:12.000 That's faith.

00:09:13.000 There's not a scientific paper published anywhere that shows that.

00:09:16.000 And number two, there's not a scientific paper published anywhere which shows one creature changing into a fundamentally different kind.

00:09:23.000 None.

00:09:24.000 And I'm making this on your show.

00:09:26.000 So if somebody is out there and they have those papers, they can send them to me at the Institute for Creation Research and I'll change my story.

00:09:33.000 But the reality is there's not a scientific paper published anywhere.

00:09:37.000 And that's why in Tucker's vernacular, he can say none, zero, no real evidence of that.

00:09:44.000 Evidence of change, but faith, always by faith, that one creature can change into a fundamentally different kind of creature.

00:09:52.000 Nobody's ever seen it happened.

00:09:54.000 And as far as we know, it really can't happen.

00:09:57.000 So, Doctor, since that is the case, as you describe, why is it then such the dominant belief institutionally and academically?

00:10:06.000 Why is that the case?

00:10:07.000 Well, because it's supposed to explain why organisms look so incredibly designed without a designer.

00:10:16.000 You know, before Darwin, when people would see creatures and they would see their ability to fly and fish fit the water so well, and then even as anatomy took over and you, you're able to see just incredible detail and fit of so many parts of systems together.

00:10:32.000 They clearly, clearly indicate that they were highly engineered.

00:10:36.000 And before Darwin, that was the default assumption that creatures looked engineers because they were engineered and they were engineered by one who has knowledge and abilities far above us, that person being God.

00:10:49.000 Darwin came along and through his mechanism, his selectionist mechanism, he supposedly cracked the nut on how you can get organisms to look design without a designer.

00:11:02.000 Therefore, according to his theory, he doesn't really come out and say there is no God, but his theory says God is essentially irrelevant.

00:11:10.000 Nature can do what God could do all by itself, and therefore there is no need of a God to explain the design of creatures.

00:11:18.000 That's why it is so highly embraced, because it supposedly explains this design without a designer.

00:11:26.000 I think there's some truth to that because I think that some people are actual devotees to the evolutionary argument.

00:11:32.000 And I asked some of my scientific friends, some of which are Christians or not, to send in the questions they would ask you.

00:11:38.000 So I'm going to ask you some of them throughout the hour, Doctor, so you're going to be a good sport because I'm far from an expert on this, but I am a believer in, obviously, intelligent design and all the stuff you're doing.

00:11:47.000 But I want we're going to go through some of the questions that people have, both that from a Christian evolutionary perspective, which I bet you deal with, and a non-Christian evolutionary perspective.

00:11:57.000 And I think it will be very helpful for our audience to be able to understand that and to be able to see how you navigate it.

00:12:06.000 The Institute for Creation Research is the name of the organization.

00:12:12.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.

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00:13:16.000 So, Doctor, I want to ask one of these questions here.

00:13:19.000 What do you have to say for a Christian or a religious person who says God created the single-cell organism or something of that case, and that evolution was shepherded with God's hand, that evolution was God's plan for humanity to go through this process?

00:13:40.000 How should we think about this?

00:13:41.000 Well, I hear that a lot, and that is a typical response to things.

00:13:46.000 And I suppose the reason why people are saying that is because they believe that the case for evolution has been made and that it's sound and that they don't want to go against the science.

00:13:57.000 And therefore, they think the case revolution is settled, but it really isn't settled.

00:14:03.000 So I would respond by saying you really don't have to go along with the case revolution because there is really not good solid scientific evidence for it.

00:14:10.000 Number two, really, there's no difference between the atheistic evolutionary scenario and the theistic evolutionary scenario.

00:14:18.000 They're both looking at it from the same mechanisms.

00:14:21.000 They think things go from a single-celled organism and advance through struggles to survive life and death.

00:14:28.000 And so there's really no mechanism.

00:14:30.000 So why would you hold to a position which makes your belief in God totally irrelevant?

00:14:37.000 And that's what evolutionary theories do.

00:14:39.000 It's to show that God is irrelevant.

00:14:40.000 So you're basically committing a type of spiritual suicide by buying into the mechanisms in the process, which are fundamentally atheistic and anti-theistic at their very core.

00:14:54.000 Three, it's not really scientific at all because these interventions of God that you're talking about to either start life and then supposedly intervene at different points of time cannot be identified scientifically.

00:15:09.000 So it's just a matter of faith.

00:15:11.000 And so there's really no way to point out how God was doing any of this.

00:15:16.000 And then four, it's completely against the biblical narrative.

00:15:19.000 So if you're a Christian and the Bible is your authority in life, the Bible says that creatures and man and woman were directly created by God, not through a long process.

00:15:30.000 This was a direct creation of them.

00:15:34.000 And that it was an instantaneous creation.

00:15:36.000 And the Bible says organisms reproduce faithfully after their kind, which is exactly what we see scientifically as well.

00:15:44.000 And so you really start to make the Bible say whatever you want it to say, which goes down a terrible, slippery slope.

00:15:52.000 And the Bible no longer becomes your authority, but the thinking of man becomes your authority.

00:15:57.000 So there's lots of reasons why it makes no good sense scientifically and biblically to hold to these unidentifiable interventions by God to supposedly shuttle along the anti-design mechanism for the origin of life and for the design of life.

00:16:14.000 So really quickly, Doctor, just what do you have to say to the claim that the evidence of common ancestry for organisms is immense?

00:16:22.000 It isn't immense.

00:16:24.000 It's not immense at all.

00:16:25.000 It's built on a lot of speculation and imagination.

00:16:30.000 What we really see, we see major gaps between organisms.

00:16:36.000 Life doesn't demonstrate that it is fundamentally continuous from one single-celled ancestor down over time.

00:16:44.000 What you do find are common ancestors for each type of creature, such as common ancestors for horses and common ancestors for humans.

00:16:55.000 And you can find huge variety within that particular kind of organism, and you can find different kinds of species of those all together.

00:17:05.000 You can find that, but you don't find any direct evidence indicating that they are connected.

00:17:12.000 For instance, you know, I've said there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that evolutionists would point to, and the biggest area is in genetics.

00:17:20.000 And so they have, you know, two common arguments is that there's a lot of conserved genes between organisms.

00:17:26.000 And then one of their strongest arguments is that humans and chimpanzees supposedly are 98 or 99% genetically identical.

00:17:34.000 But both of those assertions have been really debunked in recent years.

00:17:40.000 Everybody's known really for 20 years in terms of geneticists that we are not one to two percent different from our closest assumed ancestor, which are chimps.

00:17:50.000 In fact, the latest genetic analysis shows that we're only 80% at best genetically similar.

00:17:56.000 And if you look at chromosomes like the Y chromosomes between males, we're somewhere at 50% or less similar.

00:18:03.000 So that assertion is completely debunked.

00:18:07.000 And in addition, when you look over the 20 to 25,000 genes that humans supposedly have, depending on what number you take, there's at least 1,200 of those genes which are unique completely to humans with no ancestry whatsoever of them.

00:18:26.000 They're just essential for life.

00:18:27.000 They're unique to humans.

00:18:29.000 And at least 10 to 20% of the genomes of all creatures that have been studied show this type of unique genetic history that is only unique to their kinds.

00:18:39.000 So their strongest argument of genetics really, really falls apart under the weight of modern scientific analysis.

00:18:47.000 So then, so doctor, I want to now ask, and again, some of these questions were sent in just for kind of argument's sake and for understanding and contextualizing the argument, which is some people would say, but if you believe human beings were created, how do you then navigate some of the evidence that suggests that the Earth is millions of years old?

00:19:11.000 Well, there's actually those are two different issues altogether.

00:19:16.000 You have an age of an earth issue, which is it's very, very important for evolutionary scenarios to work because they need long periods of time to overcome just tremendous improbabilities of things to happen.

00:19:28.000 And in their view, if you give enough chances to pick a lottery ticket, eventually you're going to win one and you're going to get lucky.

00:19:35.000 So they need these very, very long periods of time in order for their theory to work.

00:19:41.000 But both scientifically and biblically, there are good evidences to reject that altogether.

00:19:46.000 One, scientifically, we know that the radiometric dating methods that they use are inherently unreliable.

00:19:53.000 And in fact, every time they've dated rocks of known ages, they come off with wildly, wildly incorrect ages.

00:20:01.000 For instance, we had rocks enough that were dating Mount St. Helens 29 years after it erupted rocks that were just brand new, and they came back dated at millions of years old.

00:20:12.000 And the same inconsistencies happen to a lot of times for radiometric dating in terms of carbon-14 and other dates on that.

00:20:22.000 And so their best argument for that, radiometric dating, really, really falls apart.

00:20:28.000 And then biblically, the Bible doesn't really give any indication that there are any long periods of time inserted into the Bible.

00:20:38.000 It gives a genealogy.

00:20:39.000 If we look at Genesis as real actual history, real history, not mytho-history, not allegories or mythology, but real history, you cannot plug in millions of years of time into that narrative.

00:20:54.000 And unless you want to take words out of their context, like when the Bible says there was evening and morning, day one, something that everybody on the planet has experienced in their life, sunrise, sunset, sunset, sunrise, and a particular day, unless you want to twist those words to mean something different, then you really can't get to an old age.

00:21:16.000 And on top of that, even in the Ten Commandments, when the Lord gave us the command on how long you should work, He said, six days shall you work and rest on the seventh, for in six days he created and rested on the seventh.

00:21:28.000 So there's great harm biblically, and there's no really good reason scientifically to hold to those old ages.

00:21:34.000 And I would suggest that a much better way to interpret the rock record is through a worldwide flood.

00:21:41.000 So go deeper into that.

00:21:43.000 How would that better interpret that?

00:21:45.000 Yes.

00:21:46.000 And that's what the power of a theory is supposed to do.

00:21:49.000 So evolutionists and uniformitarians have their theory that over very, very long periods of time, the continents have moved and they've gone up and down and they've been slowly flooded.

00:22:00.000 Most of the rocks, they think, were due to water deposition anyway.

00:22:04.000 But over a very long period of time, they've been slowly placed.

00:22:09.000 We would argue that a much better way to interpret the rock record, which fits, is that instead of those layers being placed over a very long period of time, they were placed in a one-year worldwide global event.

00:22:22.000 Now, why would I say that's a better way to interpret it?

00:22:25.000 Because when, so when you and I look at the rock record and we look at the layers on them, what do we see?

00:22:31.000 You know, when we look at them, what do you see?

00:22:32.000 I know what you see.

00:22:34.000 You see layers stacked on top of each other, very, very flat, one on top of each other with no evidence of time, no evidence of erosion in between those layers, just bang, bang, bang.

00:22:45.000 And when you see them bent, they're all bent together.

00:22:48.000 There's no cracking.

00:22:49.000 We also see literally billions and billions of fossils buried in those layers.

00:22:56.000 And we see very, very thick sedimentary layers, sometimes 15, 20, 30, almost 100 thick in layers all over the world.

00:23:06.000 So what process would put flat layers stacked on top of each other, burying billions of fossils, very, very thick today?

00:23:16.000 There aren't any processes doing anything like that today.

00:23:19.000 There aren't any processes burying huge coal fields today.

00:23:23.000 And on top of that, research that we've done at the Institute for Creation Research by looking at boreholes all over the world, we can demonstrate conclusively that you find some of the same layers in the exact same order on every single continent on the planet.

00:23:41.000 Now, what mechanism would place those layers that way, but a worldwide flood?

00:23:46.000 So, all the evidence that we look at from the rock record, holding radiometric dating aside, indicates that these layers were placed fast and through a violent mechanism, trapping all of those organisms and killing them suddenly in a process which is unlike anything that we observe on the planet today.

00:24:06.000 A critic once said to me when I presented this argument that if a worldwide flood explains the recent history, how do we explain places like Madagascar that have thousands of species that only live there, a separate island off the coast of Africa?

00:24:20.000 Yeah, that goes back, kind of circles back to our initial discussion on adaptation and speciation.

00:24:30.000 In fact, you can find not just isolated groups of animals on these continents, on Madagascar, but you can find them on continents like Australia and the like.

00:24:40.000 And nobody knows exactly from either an evolutionary perspective or totally from a creationary perspective exactly how you would explain that because nobody was there.

00:24:51.000 But there are strong indications that the continents broke apart during the worldwide flood, separating them apart, but that there was lots of debris and things in the oceans.

00:25:02.000 And so animals migrated to different places through land bridges, which were exposed at the time because the water levels were much lower at the time, and also probably through floating log mats and other things, of which when they landed at where they landed, because they were distinct and in small groups, they repopulated those areas, of course, with the organisms that were there,

00:25:26.000 which would lead to a type of biological isolation from one another, and therefore you would end up with distinct creatures at particular locations.

00:25:36.000 Can you speak to the improbability mathematically of evolution?

00:25:43.000 This, I think, is one of the more compelling arguments.

00:25:45.000 How improbable is it that the human being, especially, putting aside other animals, would actually be in its current form as we know it today with consciousness, with our ability to breathe, to oxygenate ourselves, to have the organs?

00:26:02.000 What does the math show as far as the improbability that such a theory would be true?

00:26:08.000 Okay, well, the math indicates that it's highly, highly improbable.

00:26:13.000 First of all, nobody really knows where consciousness comes from, and there's strong indications that it is not produced by your brain and it's not produced biologically.

00:26:22.000 But when you think about what evolutionary theory has to explain, it has to explain every single molecule and their systems working together in system elements for every feature on your body, most of which are connected in chicken and egg scenarios.

00:26:40.000 In other words, you need products to make products and you need those products to go back to the initial conditions and highly circular systems that it's just highly, highly implausible.

00:26:52.000 In fact, it takes great leaps of imagination, very vivid imaginations to even kind of conceptualize what this would happen.

00:26:59.000 So when you try to add up all of the things that must evolve together, nobody's done the math on that because the numbers are so incredibly small from a probability standpoint that it's really just not going to happen.

00:27:12.000 And you would have to ask the evolutionists, what mechanism is doing this?

00:27:16.000 Are you really going to believe that random mutations, random genetic breakages are going to lead to all of these things?

00:27:23.000 Highly improbable.

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00:28:08.000 Doctor, can you go a little deeper into debunking Darwin and challenging some of his beliefs?

00:28:15.000 He is still considered to be very well thought of in the academy.

00:28:20.000 What did he hypothesize that we can now irrefutably say is not true?

00:28:26.000 And should Darwin be taught at all in our schools?

00:28:30.000 Well, I really don't think from a scientific standpoint, it really should be taught because it's a very, very weak scientific theory, particularly explaining biological functions.

00:28:40.000 And so if you want to know what Darwin in his day really taught and what his big coup de grace was, what his claim to fame was, is he came up with the idea of natural selection.

00:28:51.000 And that was really Darwin's idea altogether.

00:28:56.000 And what he did is he compared nature to a human breeder.

00:29:02.000 And he saw that breeders could select for certain traits.

00:29:05.000 And over a period of time, they could get really diverse creatures.

00:29:08.000 Well, he hypothesized that over a very long period of time, nature could act like a human breeder and select for traits and then eventually lead to the diversity of life on earth.

00:29:18.000 Well, that analogy really was debunked initially by many of Darwin's colleagues in the day, but then about two decades later really took hold.

00:29:27.000 And how it was debunked initially was, is they said, this is a phony analogy.

00:29:31.000 It's an illegitimate analogy.

00:29:33.000 You can't compare nature at all to a human being because humans have a real brain and humans can make real decisions and humans have real volition.

00:29:42.000 And there's nothing in nature which would allow you to do that.

00:29:46.000 But what it allowed Darwin to do was to project onto nature, to project onto nature in an illegitimate way, but a very imaginative way, that nature could somehow see, select, save, and build traits over time, that nature could somehow select for things or work on creatures or favor creatures or act creatures.

00:30:08.000 And so it allowed Darwin to turn nature into an operative agent in lieu of God's agency.

00:30:16.000 And that is what really captures the thinking of many people.

00:30:20.000 They see that natural selection is this omnipresent force working on creatures and molding and shaping them when it's really illegitimate.

00:30:28.000 And we can demonstrate that this is so because you can just ask someone, well, show me the selector if this is doing it.

00:30:34.000 Or how do you quantify a selection pressure?

00:30:37.000 Or what in nature is equivalent to a human brain to allow you to even project onto its select abilities?

00:30:45.000 Or what is the act of selection?

00:30:48.000 Or what is even being selected?

00:30:50.000 The answer is nobody can answer those questions.

00:30:54.000 There's no agreement.

00:30:56.000 There's dispute over that.

00:30:57.000 So just by asking questions to pin down and to take apart the substitute agent that Darwin put together is the best way to debunk it.

00:31:07.000 Because once you show that selectionism is really just a mystical way to interpret what you see, you've really pulled apart the heart or the guts of evolutionary theory altogether by just debunking selectionism as a mystical way of interpreting the world around you.

00:31:24.000 A Christian who does believe in evolution sent this in because I sent out a lot of messages.

00:31:30.000 I said, hey, what would you like us to talk about?

00:31:32.000 He said this.

00:31:33.000 He said, breeders are some form of evidence of evolution.

00:31:36.000 If we can make dogs look massively different in 50 years of intensive breeding, why can't evolution happen naturally over a long period of time?

00:31:44.000 So, doctor, let's posit that the earth is millions of years old for sake of argument, okay?

00:31:49.000 For their theory.

00:31:51.000 What would you say in response to that?

00:31:53.000 Well, I would say, you know, I used to think the exact same thing myself.

00:31:57.000 I held to evolutionary thinking even after I became a Christian, and it was the scientific evidence which pushed me the other way.

00:32:04.000 So positing the long period of time and positing the fact that breeders can come up with huge varieties of dogs over a period of time, what would be the problem to thinking that way?

00:32:16.000 Well, number one, I mentioned that nature is not like a breeder.

00:32:20.000 Breeders really do select for traits.

00:32:23.000 Breeders really do pick them. 0.99

00:32:25.000 And breeders really do shuttle those organisms down particular tracks where they want to accentuate certain traits.

00:32:32.000 It's a highly intelligent operation where you really use your mind, you really do use your volition, and nature can't do that.

00:32:40.000 It doesn't even know what to pick for or what to select for.

00:32:44.000 And number two, his analogy is actually an argument against it, because even though breeders can get these huge varieties of dogs intentionally with real volition, they still consistently get dogs, dog after dog, one generation after another generation, and they hit specific limits that you cannot get past a dog.

00:33:09.000 So unless you just want to invoke a very fertile imagination that thinks somehow, some way you're going to jump past these natural barriers or limits, what the breeding experiments show is that organisms actually do faithfully reproduce after their kind.

00:33:27.000 And the world's longest running experiment on evolution, which was involving E. coli bacteria, which went on for well over three decades, consistently showed that these organisms faithfully reproduced E. coli one division after another after another.

00:33:44.000 And not only do you only hit limits within kinds, you'll actually hit limits with those particular traits because people have been breeding horses for many, many generations.

00:33:55.000 And you suddenly hit the maximum amount of speed that these horses are being able to obtain.

00:34:02.000 And you can't even really push past some of those type of barriers to the traits.

00:34:06.000 So breeding experiments, rather than showing that there's unlimited change, actually show that there are definite limits to change.

00:34:14.000 How would you respond or how should we think about what some evolutionists would point to as evidence in their argument when they say that there are certain animals that have character traits that are not useful to them?

00:34:28.000 For example, fish that live in very dark caves have eyes but no longer work.

00:34:33.000 Whales have hip bones.

00:34:35.000 They would say, wouldn't that the only explanation would be a byproduct of evolution?

00:34:41.000 Well, I would say that's the way that it's taught to you in school, and that's the way you were trying to think of it on there.

00:34:47.000 But that's really an argument from ignorance.

00:34:51.000 So you see these bones in the whales and you assume that they're kind of like de-evolved or vestigial types of hip bones.

00:35:00.000 But when you actually go with the science and you let science operate, you find out that these are not vestigial hip bones at all.

00:35:07.000 These are totally functional bones, which are useful in whales and dolphins today, which are necessary in order for them to copulate underwater, no easy feat.

00:35:17.000 And so you completely misinterpreted what you saw.

00:35:20.000 And then, in terms of the blind cave fish, for instance, yes, there are surface fish with eyes.

00:35:26.000 And then you find those same fish in a cave.

00:35:28.000 They can actually breed with the surface fish and they're hypopigmented and they don't have eyes.

00:35:33.000 So what you are actually seeing is an activation of internal programming, not a trial and error and hit and miss process that took place due to random mutations.

00:35:45.000 What we actually see is an internal program which enables these fish to live in caves, which purposely shuts down their eyes, purposefully turns down their pigmentation, traits that can be dialed up and dialed down, purposely changes their circadian rhythms, their diet, their heart, their red blood cells, their metabolism.

00:36:09.000 A whole slew of traits activate in these cave fish and other creatures that live in caves in very similar ways, enabling them to fit in caves.

00:36:18.000 So what I actually see here is I see a highly designed, highly regulated mechanism that enables creatures like these fish to pioneer into caves and to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth, just as the Lord said, including caves.

00:36:36.000 I see strong evidence for engineering, purposeful engineering that allows these organisms to pioneer into different environments altogether.

00:36:45.000 And I see no evidence, zero, for random mutations being selected out over long periods of time.

00:36:52.000 I mean, how would these fish even live in these caves?

00:36:55.000 The conditions are so different from the surface area.

00:36:57.000 They have to be able to adjust very rapidly.

00:37:01.000 Doctor, you mentioned that you used to believe in some of these arguments.

00:37:05.000 Tell us your story.

00:37:06.000 I'm super interested.

00:37:08.000 Well, I was a good student in school, high school, and things, and I studied and I believed what my teacher said.

00:37:15.000 I had a lot of faith in what they were teaching me.

00:37:19.000 And I pretty much accepted it without any questioning on it.

00:37:23.000 And that went on for quite a few years, even after I became a Christian.

00:37:27.000 In fact, I used to argue with people like myself trying to convince my position that I was wrong.

00:37:33.000 And I hate to say that I even laughed at the former president of ICR who founded this ministry on the radio.

00:37:40.000 But I was laughing from a position of ignorance.

00:37:42.000 I really didn't understand the science and I really didn't understand the arguments at that time.

00:37:48.000 And once I started to dig into the science and I started to see that, hey, when I look at a fossil and I see a living counterpart that today, there's really essentially no evidence of evolution between them, even though tens of millions of years have passed.

00:38:03.000 I see stasis.

00:38:05.000 I don't see random mutations leading to improvements.

00:38:09.000 I see them leading to diseases and death.

00:38:13.000 And what I really find are systems, when I look deep into the biology, which are highly internal to organisms and totally regulated within them, which have functions.

00:38:23.000 And I see incredible volumes of information that are in these creatures, which could not come about through random processes altogether.

00:38:33.000 And I start to see that I was believing in something which really made no scientific sense at all.

00:38:38.000 It was actually counterintuitive to what I would normally think.

00:38:43.000 Purposeless things don't lead to purposeful things.

00:38:46.000 A lack of agency doesn't lead to organisms that exercise agency.

00:38:50.000 A lack of consciousness does not lead to things that have consciousness.

00:38:55.000 A lack of planning and purpose doesn't lead to things which are highly engineered, highly purposeful.

00:39:00.000 So I was holding to things which were totally counterintuitive.

00:39:03.000 And it was through the ministry way back in the early 1980s of the Institute for Creation Research, looking at their information, which set me free.

00:39:12.000 And I was kind of like born again again with this thinking.

00:39:19.000 Three-star general Michael J. Flynn, head of the Pentagon Intelligence Agency, knew all the government's dirty secrets.

00:39:26.000 He was one of the most respected generals in the military.

00:39:29.000 Flynn knew what the Intel world had been up to.

00:39:31.000 He understood its funding.

00:39:33.000 He ordered the first audit of the use of contractors.

00:39:37.000 This set off alarm bells.

00:39:39.000 The explosive new documentary, Flynn, deliver the truth, whatever the cost, and covers the facts behind this scandal.

00:39:46.000 Flynn told the truth.

00:39:48.000 He was the most dangerous person for Donald Trump to hire.

00:39:51.000 I find out the worst enemy that I'm going to face in my life is right here in America.

00:39:56.000 They took my assessment and they wanted me to change it.

00:39:59.000 I was like, I'm changing it.

00:40:00.000 They had to get rid of Flynn.

00:40:02.000 With in-depth interviews, archival footage, and never before seen personal records of the man behind the headlines.

00:40:09.000 I just felt like I was drowning.

00:40:11.000 Flynn, deliver the truth, whatever the cost.

00:40:14.000 Available now.

00:40:15.000 Watch it today.

00:40:16.000 Go to salemnow.com.

00:40:17.000 Satemnow.com.

00:40:23.000 So, Doctor, tell us about the Institute for Creation Research.

00:40:27.000 Tell us about the work you're doing.

00:40:29.000 Well, we are a research organization.

00:40:31.000 We have PhD scientists on staff, a whole crew of them, amongst various disciplines.

00:40:36.000 We have geneticists, we have developmental biologists, we have paleobiochemists, we have geologists on staff, physicists.

00:40:46.000 I'm a medical doctor and an engineer on that.

00:40:48.000 So we have highly qualified people to do research.

00:40:51.000 And in fact, amazingly, one of your questions was related to our current area of research, and that is the cavefish.

00:40:59.000 Since the blind cavefish is such an icon of evolution, we decided to do research on that.

00:41:06.000 And so we have major projects.

00:41:08.000 We have, in my opinion, one of the best fish labs in the country that we have set up.

00:41:14.000 And we are doing experiments on these blind cavefish in terms of their pigmentation and their eyesight right now.

00:41:21.000 We have a large project on geology, and that's the borehole project that I mentioned a little earlier.

00:41:27.000 Every time oil organizations and people are searching for minerals, they go looking, they drill these boreholes into the earth and they log or they catalog what is coming out of the borehole.

00:41:39.000 So they're able to document the layers as they go through those types of layers.

00:41:43.000 Well, we're the only organization right now, which is actually cataloging all of those boreholes.

00:41:49.000 And I shouldn't say all of them, but literally thousands of those boreholes on every continent on the planet and able to make maps of those and which are able to demonstrate very clearly that, as I said earlier, you find the same layers in the same order in certain segments of them on every continent on the planet.

00:42:07.000 So we're able to show that there really was a worldwide flood and we're able to fairly precisely document the different stages of the flood.

00:42:16.000 We do research into genetics.

00:42:18.000 We can demonstrate that humans and chimps are not 99% genetically identical.

00:42:23.000 Dr. Jeff Tompkins is doing that research.

00:42:26.000 Dr. Clary was doing the research on geology.

00:42:28.000 Dr. Jake Hebert is doing research.

00:42:30.000 He's our physicist on longevity of the patriarchs and also a lot of research into Big Bang.

00:42:36.000 So we don't have a huge broad range, but we have some very targeted areas, Big Bang, biological evolution, age of the earth, particularly sedimentation, where we really drill down deep and we do the research.

00:42:52.000 We write up articles.

00:42:53.000 They're published.

00:42:53.000 Some of them get published in secular journals.

00:42:56.000 Most of them are published in peer-reviewed creationist journals.

00:42:59.000 And then we go to conferences and we discuss these with other creationists.

00:43:03.000 We go to college campuses.

00:43:05.000 Last year we went to seven and we did discussions at public universities, public college campuses, and where we kind of take on the evolutionists that are on those campuses.

00:43:16.000 And so the students don't have to do it themselves.

00:43:19.000 These teachers can't give us a grade.

00:43:21.000 And we can kind of just take apart their thinking piece by piece.

00:43:25.000 So we are an apologetics creationist organization where we seek to lift high the name of the Lord Jesus as creator and defend Christians.

00:43:35.000 All right, Doctor, you're going to have to humor our audience here.

00:43:37.000 They've asked a question repeatedly.

00:43:40.000 How should we think about dinosaurs?

00:43:44.000 Okay.

00:43:45.000 Well, hopefully that's everybody believes that there are dinosaurs or were dinosaurs on this planet.

00:43:51.000 You can see fossils of them buried by the thousands and thousands all over the world.

00:43:57.000 They were different types of creatures.

00:44:00.000 I think the best evidence indicates they were not reptiles directly themselves, but they were very reptilian in behavior and form.

00:44:08.000 That they were created.

00:44:10.000 The flying ones were created on day five, land ones created on day on day six, just as the Bible says, that they coexisted with humans up until the time of the flood, of which the time the vast, vast majority of them were destroyed.

00:44:24.000 They probably weren't destroyed by some asteroid or hitting the planet and killing mostly just the dinosaurs, but not other creatures.

00:44:33.000 So the vast majority were destroyed in the flood.

00:44:36.000 Some were obviously taken onto the ark by Noah, brought there.

00:44:41.000 They populated the earth, many parts of it post-flood.

00:44:45.000 There's evidence of people actually making drawings of dinosaur-like creatures.

00:44:51.000 And if you go to our museum at the Discovery Center in Dallas, Texas, we have a whole wall dedicated where photographic evidence shows drawings of people who have drawn these types of dinosaurs up until like the Middle Ages.

00:45:05.000 There's even a perfect rendition of one from a temple in Cambodia showing a stegosaurus drawn on this, which was made in the 1400s.

00:45:15.000 So somehow, some way, they've either gone completely extinct, but they persisted with humans for quite a period of time.

00:45:22.000 Probably most of the legends about dragons are these dinosaurs, and so they've died out.

00:45:28.000 And perhaps the main reason why they died out after the flood is that humans killed them, like they like they've killed off other organisms on the planet.

00:45:37.000 So that's how I'd say the best way to understand dinosaurs.

00:45:41.000 So, Doctor, in closing here, it seems as if that public opinion is moving in the creationist direction in the last 10 or 15 years.

00:45:52.000 And people are asking questions.

00:45:54.000 You know, Tucker going on the podcast certainly demonstrates that.

00:45:58.000 Do you see that as well?

00:46:00.000 Well, I wish I could say that I do see that.

00:46:04.000 I'm glad to hear that people like Tucker have thought this through, even though he would not probably be in my camp, but he's thought through the evidence.

00:46:12.000 And other people are thinking it through.

00:46:14.000 But by and large, I can't say that there is an overwhelming case where people are moving towards creation.

00:46:20.000 I wish there was.

00:46:21.000 In the United States, because we have a diversity of thought, there's a higher percentage of people who would reject evolution than across the world.

00:46:29.000 But what I would say is, even if the public opinion isn't always going in our favor, the scientific evidence is.

00:46:37.000 The scientific evidence is coming in very strongly that when organisms adapt, it is due to highly regulated mechanisms that enable them to adapt very rapidly and often repeatably, repeatedly, and sometimes reversibly, and with traits that are so targeted to the environmental challenges that they can even be predictable.

00:47:00.000 And so the scientific evidence is coming in very strongly inconsistent with evolutionary theory and very strongly in the case for an engineered approach, an engineered explanation for biology.

00:47:12.000 So I think it's just a matter of time before evolutionary theory has to be completely reformulated in many ways.

00:47:18.000 And we are at a perfect time to develop a theory of biological design right now from ICR kind of leading the way and others coming along with us to explain the scientific evidence better than it's explained before through a theory of biological design.

00:47:34.000 And I think when that happens, we will start to persuade people even stronger.

00:47:39.000 Doctor, thank you so much for your time.

00:47:41.000 Everyone, check out icr.org.

00:47:43.000 That is icr.org.

00:47:44.000 Thank you so much.

00:47:45.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:47:46.000 Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:47:48.000 Thanks so much for listening and God bless.

00:47:53.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - May 01, 2024

Evolved, or Created?

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