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00:01:23.000Okay, so I want to propose a slightly different take on that, maybe a variation.
00:01:27.000So if there's a mother and a daughter, the daughter can be a teenager, 20, whatever.
00:01:37.000Some kind of condition or organ failure or something where she needs a body part from her mom, like a kidney transplant, and only her mom is capable of giving her that kidney transplant.
00:01:47.000She's the only person for DNA reasons or something.0.69
00:01:51.000Do you think that mom should be required legally by the government to give her kidney in order to keep the daughter alive?1.00
00:03:01.000Let's say that you had a killer, like a very awful disease for nine months, a killer disease.
00:03:09.000And if you took a magical pill, because we're going to use hypotheticals, that could kill somebody randomly around the world, would you do it?
00:03:28.000Here's my distinction I wanted to make though.
00:03:33.000I think there's a very important distinction to be made between thinking that abortions are good versus thinking that women should have the choice to have an abortion.0.53
00:03:43.000Because in our scenario, the mother daughter, you can argue that the right thing to do, the thing you would want to do, or the thing that I would want someone to do, is to donate the kidney and save the daughter.
00:03:53.000But I think there's kind of an instinct that for the mother, some sort of autonomy, bodily autonomy perhaps, is.
00:04:00.000Stands in the way and basically says the government cannot enforce her to do that, even if it's the thing that we would feel is right for her to do.
00:04:44.000When a woman is pregnant, there's two sets of DNA: mother, baby.0.96
00:04:49.000If the mother terminates that baby, abortion, then she is basically saying, My DNA matters more than this other human being's DNA.0.55
00:04:57.000Don't you think a human who is physically entangled with another human has the right, purely on bodily autonomy, To do that, if someone else is reliant, plugged into my body, do I not have the right to disconnect that and retain?
00:05:10.000No, you do not have the right to starve another human being of nutrients that would kill them.
00:05:20.000You're not addressing the root issue here.
00:05:23.000The root issue is to be philosophically consistent a woman or a man, especially a woman in pregnancy, does not have a right to terminate another human being, regardless if it's in their utero, in their nursery, or whether it's in their car.
00:05:38.000Trying to cause you bodily harm, like trying to, I don't know, not kill you, but trying to attack you and cause you harm, do you have the right to defend yourself?
00:09:03.000Why does a mom then have a right to be able to murder the being in her temporarily?1.00
00:09:08.000Infringing upon her bodily autonomy.1.00
00:09:10.000If I was infringing on your bodily autonomy, you could murder me.1.00
00:09:12.000If I came up and tried to attack you, you could murder me.0.52
00:09:14.000How could you possibly infringing on bodily autonomy because the baby's there for nine months getting nutrients from the mother?
00:09:22.000Yeah, and like when they're birthed, they rip a hole in the mother and cause like there are a ton of side consequences that could come out of that.
00:09:29.000There's all of these, like it is reliant on the mother's body.
00:10:03.000Don't use dehumanizing language to try to make it seem like it's a clump of cells, because it's easier to murder things you cannot see, right?
00:10:31.000Is my six month old who demands food all the time and can't hunt and gather infringing on my rights and my income because it needs food all the time?
00:10:39.000No, because it's not hooked up into your body.
00:10:50.000So, how is it any different to have a six month old under my custody, which is infringing on my income, infringing on my rights, infringing on my sleep, infringing on a lot of different things as a father?
00:11:02.000How is it any different than the nine months up to umbilical cord?
00:11:05.000By the way, how many people in this audience are currently having their tuition paid for by their parents?
00:11:10.000They're infringing on their parents' income.
00:12:56.000You have, just so we are clear, that babies can infect moms with terrible diseases.
00:13:02.000Like, babies are like disease mongers by the time that they're age one.
00:13:06.000No, but here's the point is that there are risks at every point of human development.
00:13:11.000There are risks when the baby is two weeks old, there's a risk when they're 16 years old and they start driving.
00:13:15.000Then there are risks to all of humanity.
00:13:16.000But you don't think there's a fundamental difference when they're physically connected into your, If the idea of somebody being physically connected, right now there are tens of thousands of babies right now in what is called NICU.
00:13:57.000But do you think they would have a right to go pull someone random off the street and hook up the baby into that person's bloodstream because the baby would die otherwise?
00:14:07.000If the NICU machine doesn't exist, what do you think?
00:14:13.000If the NICU machine didn't exist and you had to pull a random person off the street to save that baby's life.
00:14:17.000Again, none of that is even remotely relevant in the hypothetical.
00:14:22.000The answer is no because it's not applicable what I'm saying.
00:14:25.000But again, in some ways you're overthinking it, in some ways you're underthinking it.
00:14:30.000Let me just kind of end with this, that human development at its very core, irrefutably starts at conception.
00:14:38.000I believe human life and human development start the same.
00:14:40.000You can have your own thoughts on that, but human development, our process, human beings, start when our deoxyribonucleic acid as a zygote attaches to the uterine wall.
00:16:15.000The government's right to be able to do that, I think, needs to be justified by some reason that it affects the government.
00:16:22.000It doesn't affect the government to terminate a baby in pregnancy.
00:16:28.000You don't think a million abortions a year affects anybody?
00:16:32.000I'm not saying it affects nobody, but I'm saying in the same way you're saying it affects people in the same way that the government not being able to have an army does?
00:16:46.000If you are massacring a million of your own people every year, That's a bigger problem than being able to properly staff the Marine Corps.1.00
00:16:53.000You're, you're, okay, so you think we're mastering the people, but we also are forcing women.
00:16:58.000No, but to go, just to go back to your analogy, just so we're clear, the government does infringe on bodily autonomy in times of national crisis.0.60
00:17:59.000The point being is that throughout history, we are able to sometimes say that in order for life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, defeating the Nazis in World War II, there is a greater good.
00:18:09.000And I will say that what is the greater good?
00:18:11.000That those that are being massacred in the womb can have life because life is good and it's the first of all human rights.
00:18:32.000No one wants those mothers to die, but it is a fact that if we outlawed abortion, 99% of them, all of a sudden we'd have a 990,000 increase in our population every year, and we'd have much more life.0.77
00:18:42.000And in a month, those children would be raised in households.
00:18:55.000There's no such thing as an unwanted child.
00:18:58.000And I refuse to live under the bigotry of low expectations where we can justify, oh, they're going to have a bad life or they're going to grow up in a crime ridden neighborhood.
00:19:09.000I'm sorry, I know you don't mean it.0.94
00:19:27.000The thing about no, I said if I were to grant you the bodily autonomy, it doesn't even bear out that at times the government can actually take possession of your bodily autonomy.
00:20:17.00055 million, I don't know if all of them wanted to have an abortion, but millions of women didn't want to be pregnant and were forced to continue being pregnant against their will.0.99
00:20:29.000Like, that affected their physical health.
00:20:31.000We're going in circles, but outside of.0.90
00:20:34.000If you don't want to get pregnant, then save yourself for marriage and stop having so much sex with everybody.0.99
00:20:38.000And certainly do not murder babies as an excuse for your gratuitous sex.0.99
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00:21:51.000I'm currently agnostic, like normatively.
00:21:53.000I'm leaning towards pro choice in the virtue of the facts that I take it that pro life views ultimately fail in accounting for like relevant data, being like the facts of the conversation, like biological, philosophical, and identity information.
00:22:05.000And I'm not convinced that identity is reductible down to the physical properties or the organism.
00:23:25.000I'm not going to say that the full capacity for sentience is going to be like what grants them that like moral consideration.
00:23:31.000I'm telling you that any level of sentience, which is why I hold a cautionary principle, but like at any level of sentience is going to grant them moral consideration.
00:24:30.000Yes, when you attach to the uterine wall, and the moment at that time, your life began when your DNA was formed.
00:24:37.000Absent intervention, you then form into a fully developed adult, and you do not have a right to interrupt the development of another human being.
00:24:48.000You do not have a right to interrupt a six month old or a six year old from growing or flourishing.
00:24:54.000You do not have a right to be able to do that.
00:24:57.000That is a basic, self evident moral principle.
00:25:00.000That just because you are larger or just because you're older, you're able to interrupt another human being from growing.
00:25:07.000Yeah, I didn't say any of that, but sure.
00:26:33.000Okay, well, I believe every human being is made in the image of God.
00:26:36.000and therefore it's uniquely designed and crafted and created.
00:26:41.000And since every human being is made in the image of God, we do not have the authority morally to destroy another being that bears the image of the Creator.
00:27:13.000So, I don't know what kind of argument you're making here because, unfortunately, God itself is just not going to ground that a fetus is inherently valuable.
00:27:22.000Okay, you asked for my scriptural analysis, but okay, let's just take.
00:27:53.000So you can eliminate anything even though it's growing towards sentience?
00:27:57.000Yeah, so are you making like a potential argument?
00:27:59.000Well, I'm just making a rather rational one.
00:28:02.000Just so we are clear, just you know, when a baby is born, your mental faculties of a baby are not completely sentient.
00:28:08.000Like, for example, when a baby is five days old, they're only awake like two hours a day.
00:28:12.000They can't speak, they cannot really reason.
00:28:15.000And sentience is like barely there for a one week old or a two week old.
00:28:21.000In fact, a brain is not fully developed until a boy is 30 years old.
00:28:25.000So, what I'm saying is that the growth of the human being continues all throughout this process.
00:28:31.000If you allow that process to go uninterrupted, the abortionist argument is that we are going to interfere with that development because of some convenient, it's too hard to raise the human being.
00:28:45.000Yeah, so I think you're making this like it has the potential to actualize sentience, sure.
00:28:50.000But also, if it's going to gain sentience in three weeks, I just said no.
00:28:54.000It's not going to be morally considerable to not be unalived or killed, sorry.
00:28:59.000But yeah, so I kind of forgot one point that you made.
00:29:59.000How do you know a newborn has interest, desires, and motivations?
00:30:02.000Yeah, so I find it that they have the subjective experience.
00:30:05.000And I said it can include things like interest, desires, which is going to include people like you or me, and we have interest, desires, and motivations.
00:31:36.000I'm going to make the claim on the basis of empirical data that we have thalamocortical connections that work in conjunction with our cerebrum that is going to allow us to have thoughts, desires, and motivations and have the human subjective experience.
00:31:50.000Which those, the mind, sentience, is what makes us able to have complex intelligence and higher rationale as humans.
00:31:58.000Right, again, so all of that, you could detect the effects of consciousness.
00:32:03.000You cannot actually see consciousness itself.