The Charlie Kirk Show - April 25, 2026


From the Archive: Charlie vs. The University of Illinois on Abortion


Episode Stats


Length

33 minutes

Words per minute

194.03

Word count

6,416

Sentence count

526

Harmful content

Misogyny

16

sentences flagged

Toxicity

11

sentences flagged

Hate speech

40

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice: The Case of JJ Thompson and the Kidney Transplant Case. In this episode, Charlie and I discuss the difference between pro-choice and pro-life views on abortion and the case of the kidney transplant case.

Transcript

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Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.
00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.
00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.
00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.
00:00:19.000 But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful.
00:00:24.000 College is a scam, everybody.
00:00:26.000 You've got to stop sending your kids to college.
00:00:27.000 You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.
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00:00:37.000 Sign up and become an activist.
00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.
00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life.
00:00:43.000 And I encourage you to do the same.
00:00:45.000 Here I am.
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00:01:17.000 I'm sure you're familiar with JJ Thompson's argument about abortion, the violinist. 0.85
00:01:22.000 Yeah, correct.
00:01:23.000 Okay, so I want to propose a slightly different take on that, maybe a variation.
00:01:27.000 So if there's a mother and a daughter, the daughter can be a teenager, 20, whatever.
00:01:37.000 Some kind of condition or organ failure or something where she needs a body part from her mom, like a kidney transplant, and only her mom is capable of giving her that kidney transplant.
00:01:47.000 She's the only person for DNA reasons or something. 0.69
00:01:51.000 Do you think that mom should be required legally by the government to give her kidney in order to keep the daughter alive? 1.00
00:01:58.000 Otherwise, the daughter dies.
00:01:59.000 It's not an analogous situation to a pregnancy. 0.57
00:02:01.000 So, why is it not analogous?
00:02:03.000 Well, first of all, because pregnancy only lasts nine months and you don't lose a kidney.
00:02:08.000 Okay, so let's say, okay.
00:02:09.000 You realize when you have a baby, you don't lose a kidney.
00:02:11.000 Okay, so the mother has to give up her kidney for nine months and then she gets it back.
00:02:14.000 How does that work?
00:02:16.000 That's why it's not analogous.
00:02:18.000 I understand.
00:02:19.000 But if, okay, let's say the mother has to be hooked up to the mother.
00:02:21.000 So come up with an example that is analogous.
00:02:23.000 Okay, the mother has to be hooked up into the daughter's bloodstream for nine months.
00:02:27.000 Use a real example, not something theoretical.
00:02:30.000 I don't understand.
00:02:32.000 I understand it's theoretical, but what part of this analogy is not analogous?
00:02:35.000 Because it doesn't happen.
00:02:37.000 I mean, of course it doesn't happen.
00:02:39.000 But why?
00:02:39.000 Of course, so then why are we talking about it?
00:02:41.000 Because it's an analogy.
00:02:43.000 Analogies don't happen.
00:02:44.000 That's the point of analogies.
00:02:45.000 Well, some analogies actually do happen.
00:02:47.000 Okay.
00:02:47.000 So, can you think of one that would be rooted in reality?
00:02:51.000 An abortion.
00:02:52.000 But, okay.
00:02:53.000 Okay.
00:02:53.000 Let's say, like, I think the reason you're trying to avoid this is because you realize that the government.
00:02:58.000 But let's flip this hypothetical around.
00:03:00.000 Okay.
00:03:00.000 Yeah.
00:03:01.000 Let's say that you had a killer, like a very awful disease for nine months, a killer disease.
00:03:09.000 And if you took a magical pill, because we're going to use hypotheticals, that could kill somebody randomly around the world, would you do it?
00:03:16.000 I would not do it now.
00:03:18.000 So you would let the other person live?
00:03:18.000 But okay.
00:03:21.000 I would.
00:03:22.000 But okay, the difference here is that.
00:03:25.000 That's your pro life.
00:03:27.000 No, I'm okay.
00:03:28.000 Here's my distinction I wanted to make though.
00:03:33.000 I think there's a very important distinction to be made between thinking that abortions are good versus thinking that women should have the choice to have an abortion. 0.53
00:03:43.000 Right?
00:03:43.000 Because in our scenario, the mother daughter, you can argue that the right thing to do, the thing you would want to do, or the thing that I would want someone to do, is to donate the kidney and save the daughter.
00:03:53.000 But I think there's kind of an instinct that for the mother, some sort of autonomy, bodily autonomy perhaps, is.
00:04:00.000 Stands in the way and basically says the government cannot enforce her to do that, even if it's the thing that we would feel is right for her to do.
00:04:07.000 So, what about that situation?
00:04:10.000 Is it the mother's DNA?
00:04:12.000 What do you mean?
00:04:13.000 Is the baby in her DNA?
00:04:15.000 Well, in my first analogy, I guess, yeah.
00:04:18.000 But it's a separate human being, right?
00:04:22.000 So, every human being should have separate protected universal rights.
00:04:26.000 Every human being.
00:04:27.000 Okay, if the daughter does the mother have the protected universal right?
00:04:31.000 To not have her kidney taken to go to the daughter, right?
00:04:34.000 In this scenario.
00:04:35.000 I thought we were over that one.
00:04:37.000 So I'm trying to get to at least some semblance of landing the plane here.
00:04:42.000 Yeah. 0.99
00:04:44.000 When a woman is pregnant, there's two sets of DNA: mother, baby. 0.96
00:04:49.000 If the mother terminates that baby, abortion, then she is basically saying, My DNA matters more than this other human being's DNA. 0.55
00:04:57.000 Don't you think a human who is physically entangled with another human has the right, purely on bodily autonomy, To do that, if someone else is reliant, plugged into my body, do I not have the right to disconnect that and retain?
00:05:10.000 No, you do not have the right to starve another human being of nutrients that would kill them.
00:05:14.000 You do not have a right to do that.
00:05:15.000 If you woke up tomorrow and someone was plugged into you, relying on it.
00:05:17.000 Again, that's not going to happen.
00:05:18.000 Use a real example.
00:05:20.000 You're not addressing the root issue here.
00:05:23.000 The root issue is to be philosophically consistent a woman or a man, especially a woman in pregnancy, does not have a right to terminate another human being, regardless if it's in their utero, in their nursery, or whether it's in their car.
00:05:36.000 If someone comes up to you and is.
00:05:38.000 Trying to cause you bodily harm, like trying to, I don't know, not kill you, but trying to attack you and cause you harm, do you have the right to defend yourself?
00:05:46.000 Well, hold on.
00:05:46.000 Hold on a second.
00:05:47.000 Are you saying that a baby's an invader in a woman's uterus?
00:05:50.000 I mean, in a way it is, right?
00:05:52.000 What?
00:05:52.000 The baby.
00:05:55.000 Okay, let's say.
00:05:56.000 Wait, is the baby breaking and entering?
00:05:59.000 In an instance of.
00:06:02.000 That's less than half of 1% of all the cases.
00:06:04.000 So I am pro life in all the cases.
00:06:07.000 But let me just say let's say that we allow abortion in.
00:06:10.000 Should we then outlaw abortion for all the other cases? 0.63
00:06:13.000 I don't think so, Steve.
00:06:13.000 Okay, so then we're not even talking about it because you're using it as an externality to try to.
00:06:17.000 So let's now talk about the other 99.9% of the cases, right?
00:06:20.000 I'm down.
00:06:21.000 So now let's.
00:06:24.000 But just to be clear, in the 99.9% of the cases, how did that baby appear?
00:06:29.000 Did it just knock, knock, I want to come in, breaking and entering?
00:06:32.000 How did the baby.
00:06:33.000 Probably accidentally.
00:06:34.000 Hold on, accidentally.
00:06:35.000 What do you mean?
00:06:35.000 Like, let's like catching COVID, you didn't like.
00:06:38.000 I mean, what did the woman do to get the baby there? 1.00
00:06:41.000 Probably had sex. 1.00
00:06:42.000 Yes, so she made a decision and she'd take responsibility for your orgasms, right? 0.99
00:06:46.000 Okay, but if you.
00:06:49.000 I think there's a distinction between.
00:06:51.000 There's a distinction between.
00:06:54.000 Trying to have sex protected or on the ground.
00:06:56.000 It doesn't matter what your intent is. 0.51
00:06:58.000 The action has a consequence.
00:07:01.000 If you get on a plane and the plane crashes, can we say that you consented to die in a plane crash?
00:07:05.000 Because that was your intent?
00:07:07.000 Well, actually, anyone who gets on a plane knows that when you play certain games, you could win certain prizes.
00:07:11.000 So, okay, there's a.
00:07:14.000 But is it your fault?
00:07:15.000 No, it's probably the pilot's fault or the DEI person running the air traffic control's fault.
00:07:19.000 Whatever.
00:07:20.000 But more concretely or more realistically, Do you agree with the principle that people should take responsibility for their actions?
00:07:28.000 Of course, you do.
00:07:30.000 Generally, yes, but I think in.
00:07:32.000 Generally, except of course, when it involves sex.
00:07:35.000 Of course, people should take responsibility for their actions.
00:07:38.000 But in the scenario where your body is being used by another entity, your body.
00:07:45.000 Your argument would have a lot of merit if babies just appeared.
00:07:49.000 If all of a sudden, like, a woman woke up. 0.99
00:07:52.000 We decided that we're going to put that aside. 1.00
00:07:54.000 But you think in cases of. 0.65
00:07:56.000 Abortion should be allowed. 0.98
00:07:56.000 Of course, you know why? 0.98
00:07:57.000 You do, because I've got a clip of you.
00:07:59.000 Yes, I do not.
00:08:00.000 Of course, I'm sorry.
00:08:01.000 They should not be allowed.
00:08:02.000 I'll tell you why.
00:08:03.000 I have two ultrasounds in front of me.
00:08:04.000 One is a baby conceived in a woman, one is a baby with a loving family.
00:08:07.000 Which one is which?
00:08:08.000 There's no distinction.
00:08:09.000 Exactly, because they're both human beings. 0.98
00:08:11.000 There is a distinction between the mother. 1.00
00:08:13.000 The method of conception does not give you more rights or less rights.
00:08:18.000 Somebody in this auditorium was conceived in a woman.
00:08:22.000 Who is it? 0.71
00:08:23.000 I don't understand.
00:08:24.000 You don't know because they're a human being.
00:08:26.000 My point is precisely human rights are universal.
00:08:28.000 The conception doesn't matter, and the human rights of the mother are also universal.
00:08:32.000 The bodily autonomy, if you're going to say.
00:08:35.000 Then come on.
00:08:37.000 That right there.
00:08:43.000 Thank you.
00:08:43.000 Like I said, like I said, there's.
00:08:47.000 Being pro choice is not necessarily being pro abortion, it's just pro the right. 0.93
00:08:51.000 Should I, again, this might sound awfully elementary or pedantic, but do I have a right to murder you?
00:08:59.000 No, because that would infringe my bodily autonomy.
00:09:01.000 Bingo.
00:09:01.000 So then why, no, time out.
00:09:03.000 Why does a mom then have a right to be able to murder the being in her temporarily? 1.00
00:09:08.000 Infringing upon her bodily autonomy. 1.00
00:09:10.000 If I was infringing on your bodily autonomy, you could murder me. 1.00
00:09:12.000 If I came up and tried to attack you, you could murder me. 0.52
00:09:14.000 How could you possibly infringing on bodily autonomy because the baby's there for nine months getting nutrients from the mother?
00:09:22.000 Yeah, and like when they're birthed, they rip a hole in the mother and cause like there are a ton of side consequences that could come out of that.
00:09:29.000 There's all of these, like it is reliant on the mother's body.
00:09:33.000 So it's biologically.
00:09:34.000 Let me just say, I'll grant you all of this.
00:09:37.000 So therefore, eliminate the life.
00:09:40.000 Which definitionally infringes on that human's rights.
00:09:45.000 Okay.
00:09:47.000 The bodily autonomy of the fetus does not trump the bodily autonomy of the mother.
00:09:53.000 No, it's equal.
00:09:54.000 They're both human beings. 0.99
00:09:55.000 Yes, but the fetus is already infringing on the bodily autonomy of the mother.
00:09:58.000 What species is the fetus?
00:10:00.000 It's a human.
00:10:02.000 So call it a human, not a fetus.
00:10:03.000 Don't use dehumanizing language to try to make it seem like it's a clump of cells, because it's easier to murder things you cannot see, right?
00:10:08.000 It's easier to eliminate things.
00:10:09.000 You cannot witness.
00:10:10.000 So they use words like fetus, not you.
00:10:12.000 So the baby.
00:10:13.000 Were you a human being when you were a fetus?
00:10:16.000 I was a.
00:10:17.000 Okay, great.
00:10:17.000 Yes.
00:10:17.000 So therefore, if it's a human being, shouldn't it get human rights the same as you and I?
00:10:22.000 Just because it's smaller, just because it can't talk like us, doesn't it deserve human rights?
00:10:26.000 It does as long as it's not infringing upon another human's rights.
00:10:29.000 Wait, hold on.
00:10:29.000 Time out.
00:10:31.000 Is my six month old who demands food all the time and can't hunt and gather infringing on my rights and my income because it needs food all the time?
00:10:39.000 No, because it's not hooked up into your body.
00:10:41.000 Hold on.
00:10:41.000 No, no, no.
00:10:42.000 Hold on.
00:10:42.000 It's in my home.
00:10:43.000 Feed my child, I will go to jail for intentional child starvation.
00:10:43.000 If I don't.
00:10:48.000 I will get locked up by CPS.
00:10:50.000 So, how is it any different to have a six month old under my custody, which is infringing on my income, infringing on my rights, infringing on my sleep, infringing on a lot of different things as a father?
00:11:02.000 How is it any different than the nine months up to umbilical cord?
00:11:05.000 By the way, how many people in this audience are currently having their tuition paid for by their parents?
00:11:10.000 They're infringing on their parents' income.
00:11:12.000 Okay.
00:11:12.000 How is it any different, actually?
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00:12:31.000 You don't think that there is a difference between the baby after it's born versus the baby.
00:12:36.000 What's the difference? 0.91
00:12:37.000 Okay, because while it is in utero, while the woman is pregnant, it can cause the woman physical harm. 0.92
00:12:43.000 It is life-threatening.
00:12:45.000 There are a ton of cases where it can cause all kinds of things to happen and it is physically hooked up into your body.
00:12:51.000 It incapacitates you to some extent. 1.00
00:12:53.000 Pregnant. 1.00
00:12:53.000 Wow, I just, I encourage you. 1.00
00:12:55.000 You have such a lot.
00:12:56.000 You have, just so we are clear, that babies can infect moms with terrible diseases.
00:13:02.000 Like, babies are like disease mongers by the time that they're age one.
00:13:06.000 No, but here's the point is that there are risks at every point of human development.
00:13:11.000 There are risks when the baby is two weeks old, there's a risk when they're 16 years old and they start driving.
00:13:15.000 Then there are risks to all of humanity.
00:13:16.000 But you don't think there's a fundamental difference when they're physically connected into your, If the idea of somebody being physically connected, right now there are tens of thousands of babies right now in what is called NICU.
00:13:33.000 It's a neonatal intensive care unit.
00:13:35.000 They're 26, 27, 28 weeks.
00:13:37.000 They cannot breathe on their own.
00:13:38.000 They have contraptions and machines all around, and it's extremely expensive.
00:13:42.000 Hold on.
00:13:43.000 It's extremely expensive for the parents.
00:13:45.000 They have to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt.
00:13:47.000 Do they have a right to say, you know what, that baby in NICU is going to cost us 300 grand as all these machines.
00:13:53.000 Do they have a right to pull the plug on that baby?
00:13:54.000 Do you think?
00:13:55.000 Answer the question.
00:13:56.000 I don't think so.
00:13:57.000 But do you think they would have a right to go pull someone random off the street and hook up the baby into that person's bloodstream because the baby would die otherwise?
00:14:07.000 If the NICU machine doesn't exist, what do you think?
00:14:13.000 If the NICU machine didn't exist and you had to pull a random person off the street to save that baby's life.
00:14:17.000 Again, none of that is even remotely relevant in the hypothetical.
00:14:22.000 The answer is no because it's not applicable what I'm saying.
00:14:25.000 But again, in some ways you're overthinking it, in some ways you're underthinking it.
00:14:30.000 Let me just kind of end with this, that human development at its very core, irrefutably starts at conception.
00:14:38.000 I believe human life and human development start the same.
00:14:40.000 You can have your own thoughts on that, but human development, our process, human beings, start when our deoxyribonucleic acid as a zygote attaches to the uterine wall.
00:14:49.000 That is when life begins.
00:14:50.000 Like, irrefutably.
00:14:52.000 I'm not arguing that.
00:14:52.000 No, no, I never want to.
00:14:53.000 But allow me to finish and then we'll get to the next question.
00:14:55.000 Okay.
00:14:55.000 Therefore, at every step of the process of development, you have the same human rights As when you're 18 or 30 or 40.
00:15:03.000 And the most fundamental of all those rights is life.
00:15:07.000 And if we cannot defend your life right, then what good are we defending all of your other rights?
00:15:11.000 Final point.
00:15:13.000 I still think, I really don't think it would hurt you to answer the original analogy.
00:15:17.000 I think you see where it would go that you can't infringe upon someone's bodily autonomy in order to save someone else's life.
00:15:25.000 Do you agree with that?
00:15:26.000 Well, hold on, time out.
00:15:28.000 Just so we are clear, we infringe on people's bodily autonomy all the time.
00:15:31.000 Want me to give you an example?
00:15:33.000 We drafted men into World War II to go fight for this nation.
00:15:36.000 That infringed on their bodily autonomy.
00:15:38.000 We told them that your time is not your own, your passion is not your own, you must go run onto Normandy Beach.
00:15:44.000 Would you agree that is an infringement on bodily autonomy?
00:15:47.000 It is, but the government has the right to do that to uphold the nation, right?
00:15:51.000 There's a difference.
00:15:52.000 Saving babies upholds the nation, my friend, all the time.
00:15:55.000 How?
00:15:56.000 In the same way as fighting a war?
00:15:58.000 Yeah, even more so.
00:16:00.000 In fact, reducing abortions by a million a year would be an enrichment of our society.
00:16:06.000 We might find the next Einstein, the next Nikola Tesla, we might have the next Michael Jordan that is being aborted every day.
00:16:12.000 The government's, I think.
00:16:13.000 Thank you.
00:16:15.000 The government's right to be able to do that, I think, needs to be justified by some reason that it affects the government.
00:16:22.000 It doesn't affect the government to terminate a baby in pregnancy.
00:16:28.000 You don't think a million abortions a year affects anybody?
00:16:32.000 I'm not saying it affects nobody, but I'm saying in the same way you're saying it affects people in the same way that the government not being able to have an army does?
00:16:39.000 I think there's a different.
00:16:40.000 I would actually think it's an even bigger moral crisis than not being able to enlist an army.
00:16:44.000 It's a bigger moral crisis.
00:16:46.000 If you are massacring a million of your own people every year, That's a bigger problem than being able to properly staff the Marine Corps. 1.00
00:16:53.000 You're, you're, okay, so you think we're mastering the people, but we also are forcing women.
00:16:58.000 No, but to go, just to go back to your analogy, just so we're clear, the government does infringe on bodily autonomy in times of national crisis. 0.60
00:17:04.000 Yes, sir, yes.
00:17:05.000 And therefore, again, I even reject.
00:17:07.000 What is the national crisis that results in murder?
00:17:09.000 A million a year.
00:17:10.000 That's a crisis.
00:17:11.000 Okay.
00:17:12.000 Right?
00:17:13.000 If I told you that a million people are murdered a year, blanket, you would say, boy, that's a big problem.
00:17:18.000 In fact, we used to call that the Holocaust. 0.72
00:17:22.000 Okay. 0.75
00:17:22.000 Yeah. 0.75
00:17:23.000 Okay.
00:17:23.000 In fact, right?
00:17:24.000 I mean, you would say, so just so we're clear, Holocaust went for about six to seven years, six to seven million people died.
00:17:29.000 I understand.
00:17:29.000 We know a lot about the Holocaust.
00:17:31.000 Was the Holocaust a crisis? 0.91
00:17:32.000 Yes, it was a crisis. 0.99
00:17:33.000 So how is abortion not a crisis? 0.63
00:17:35.000 Because the. 0.99
00:17:36.000 Because they're smaller human beings?
00:17:38.000 The unborn, the baby, the fetuses.
00:17:41.000 Hold on, you said baby, therefore it's murder.
00:17:43.000 It's a baby, it's a baby, whatever you want to call it.
00:17:45.000 I still think, if.
00:17:47.000 Okay.
00:17:47.000 Whatever you want to call it, okay.
00:17:48.000 I think the big distinction here is that.
00:17:51.000 That baby, that child is still infringing upon someone else's body using their body.
00:17:55.000 And I think the owner of that body should decide.
00:17:57.000 Okay.
00:17:58.000 I might even grant you that.
00:17:59.000 The point being is that throughout history, we are able to sometimes say that in order for life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, defeating the Nazis in World War II, there is a greater good.
00:18:09.000 And I will say that what is the greater good?
00:18:11.000 That those that are being massacred in the womb can have life because life is good and it's the first of all human rights.
00:18:16.000 And that's the last question.
00:18:17.000 Are you glad you weren't aborted?
00:18:19.000 Of course I'm glad I was aborted.
00:18:20.000 Then why wouldn't you want to give that gift to millions of other people?
00:18:23.000 Do you want to give the gift? 0.99
00:18:24.000 What about there's mothers, there are mothers that die in medical situations all the time.
00:18:31.000 That is a red herring.
00:18:32.000 No one wants those mothers to die, but it is a fact that if we outlawed abortion, 99% of them, all of a sudden we'd have a 990,000 increase in our population every year, and we'd have much more life. 0.77
00:18:42.000 And in a month, those children would be raised in households.
00:18:45.000 See, that is a cynical view.
00:18:47.000 You know, there's over 2 million people on the adoption waiting list every year, and there are a million abortions.
00:18:51.000 We have twice as many people that want to adopt.
00:18:54.000 Than actually abort in this country.
00:18:55.000 There's no such thing as an unwanted child.
00:18:58.000 And I refuse to live under the bigotry of low expectations where we can justify, oh, they're going to have a bad life or they're going to grow up in a crime ridden neighborhood.
00:19:09.000 I'm sorry, I know you don't mean it. 0.94
00:19:10.000 That's how you get to eugenics. 1.00
00:19:12.000 If you start to all of a sudden say that their life is going to be terrible, therefore we can eliminate them. 0.82
00:19:17.000 That's not the point I was trying to make.
00:19:19.000 That is exactly the point you were making.
00:19:21.000 I'm started with the bodily autonomy thing.
00:19:23.000 No, no, but eventually, you interjected.
00:19:25.000 You granted for a moment there.
00:19:26.000 You granted for a moment.
00:19:27.000 The thing about no, I said if I were to grant you the bodily autonomy, it doesn't even bear out that at times the government can actually take possession of your bodily autonomy.
00:19:37.000 When did Roe v. Wade start?
00:19:38.000 In like the 60s, right?
00:19:39.000 From the 1960s, 70s, 70s, something okay.
00:19:42.000 From then until now, until Trump banned abortion, what national crisis has arisen?
00:19:47.000 Has there been like a national crisis because all these babies have been aborted?
00:19:51.000 Like 55 million souls that never had a chance to live.
00:19:55.000 That's a beyond a national crisis.
00:19:56.000 It didn't understand.
00:19:58.000 We didn't. 0.97
00:19:59.000 Lack scientists or politicians because of unborn babies. 0.94
00:20:02.000 How do you know?
00:20:03.000 I mean, we, like, there was.
00:20:05.000 So, you know, all 55 million identities and what they could have achieved and their dreams?
00:20:10.000 I mean, at some point, you have to take a step back and say, boy, when 55 million people never had a chance at life, that's kind of dark.
00:20:16.000 What does that say for a society?
00:20:17.000 55 million, I don't know if all of them wanted to have an abortion, but millions of women didn't want to be pregnant and were forced to continue being pregnant against their will. 0.99
00:20:29.000 Like, that affected their physical health.
00:20:31.000 We're going in circles, but outside of. 0.90
00:20:34.000 If you don't want to get pregnant, then save yourself for marriage and stop having so much sex with everybody. 0.99
00:20:38.000 And certainly do not murder babies as an excuse for your gratuitous sex. 0.99
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00:21:51.000 I'm currently agnostic, like normatively.
00:21:53.000 I'm leaning towards pro choice in the virtue of the facts that I take it that pro life views ultimately fail in accounting for like relevant data, being like the facts of the conversation, like biological, philosophical, and identity information.
00:22:05.000 And I'm not convinced that identity is reductible down to the physical properties or the organism.
00:22:09.000 I think we are a mind.
00:22:11.000 Are we just a mind?
00:22:14.000 What do you mean?
00:22:15.000 You tell me, you're making the contention.
00:22:18.000 I think our identity is down to our mind, yes.
00:22:21.000 Just consciousness or the mind?
00:22:22.000 You got to explain what you mean.
00:22:23.000 Yeah, the mind is just going to be like sentience.
00:22:26.000 Okay, so what's your contention?
00:22:28.000 I think they fail because I don't think that the being one is at conception is the same being that they are now.
00:22:34.000 And I don't mean that descriptively.
00:22:36.000 I take it that you are like your mind, and before a certain week in gestation, there was no mind or sentience, right?
00:22:41.000 And thus, no person, just physical properties, and that would eventually be informed by that said mind.
00:22:48.000 Okay, yeah, I'm not totally following what you're saying because you're using the word mind, which is not usually a word.
00:22:52.000 Yeah, I just said that mind is like sentience, like having a human's subjective experience.
00:22:57.000 So, what is your contention then?
00:22:58.000 That you're not persuaded by?
00:23:00.000 Yeah, I'm not persuaded by pro life views that we are reductible down to our organism.
00:23:05.000 Okay, yeah, so an 85 year old in an old person's home that has Alzheimer's, are they less of a human than you?
00:23:10.000 I didn't say that they were less of a human from having Alzheimer's.
00:23:12.000 No, answer the question because they have.
00:23:14.000 Yeah, so people with Alzheimer's still have the capacity for subjective experience.
00:23:18.000 I wouldn't say that they can't remember anything.
00:23:19.000 They can't remember anything.
00:23:20.000 Memory isn't.
00:23:21.000 Sentience, no, it's a part of sentience, isn't it?
00:23:24.000 Yeah, it's not going to be the.
00:23:25.000 I'm not going to say that the full capacity for sentience is going to be like what grants them that like moral consideration.
00:23:31.000 I'm telling you that any level of sentience, which is why I hold a cautionary principle, but like at any level of sentience is going to grant them moral consideration.
00:23:37.000 When does human development begin?
00:23:40.000 What do you mean, human life?
00:23:41.000 Human development, it's going to be at conception, yeah.
00:23:44.000 That's human life, yeah.
00:23:45.000 Human life begins at conception.
00:23:47.000 I'm not contending that.
00:23:47.000 No, no, got it.
00:23:48.000 So then, shouldn't our laws then protect the first possible moment of human development?
00:23:52.000 Why should they?
00:23:53.000 Well, because it's a human life.
00:23:56.000 That's just begging it, the question.
00:23:58.000 Well, no, it's actually not true.
00:23:58.000 No, you're just telling me what the human is.
00:24:00.000 You're not telling me why they should deserve rights.
00:24:03.000 Oh, so why murder is bad?
00:24:04.000 Do we need to do that? 0.96
00:24:05.000 You're going to have to explain as to why abortion is going to be the unjustified unaliving.
00:24:09.000 You're just telling me that it's because murder is inherently unjustified.
00:24:12.000 You're just telling me that it's inherently unjustified.
00:24:14.000 You're going to need to tell me why it's unjustified.
00:24:16.000 Well, personally, I think murder is wrong is pretty intuitive, right?
00:24:19.000 Yeah, it's intuitive, but you're going to need to tell me why abortion fits within that unjust category.
00:24:23.000 Okay, because you're your own unique deoxoribonucleic acid at the time of conception.
00:24:27.000 DNA?
00:24:28.000 Yes, DNA, thank you.
00:24:30.000 Yes, when you attach to the uterine wall, and the moment at that time, your life began when your DNA was formed.
00:24:37.000 Absent intervention, you then form into a fully developed adult, and you do not have a right to interrupt the development of another human being.
00:24:48.000 You do not have a right to interrupt a six month old or a six year old from growing or flourishing.
00:24:54.000 You do not have a right to be able to do that.
00:24:57.000 That is a basic, self evident moral principle.
00:25:00.000 That just because you are larger or just because you're older, you're able to interrupt another human being from growing.
00:25:07.000 Yeah, I didn't say any of that, but sure.
00:25:09.000 So, do you think that.
00:25:10.000 Okay.
00:25:11.000 Well, I don't really know what you did say, actually.
00:25:13.000 That's okay.
00:25:14.000 Do you?
00:25:14.000 Yeah.
00:25:15.000 So, what did you say?
00:25:17.000 Yeah, so I said that we're reducible to our mind.
00:25:20.000 Our mind is what makes our identity.
00:25:21.000 And I said my contention was that we are not reducible to this organism.
00:25:26.000 All right, yeah, again, so we have clarity but not agreement.
00:25:28.000 We believe you're more than just consciousness.
00:25:30.000 We believe a human being is in essence valuable because it is a human being.
00:25:35.000 This deduces back.
00:25:36.000 What do you mean by being?
00:25:39.000 What do I mean by a human being?
00:25:41.000 Yeah.
00:25:42.000 A homo sapien?
00:25:43.000 Okay, sure.
00:25:44.000 I was asking simply because some people denounce being to be personhood.
00:25:47.000 That's all I'm asking, okay?
00:25:49.000 But sure.
00:25:50.000 So are you familiar with a partial molar pregnancy?
00:25:54.000 A partial molar pregnancy?
00:25:56.000 Yes.
00:25:56.000 Not necessarily.
00:25:57.000 Okay, a partial molar pregnancy is where one egg drops and two sperm go in.
00:26:02.000 And it's going to basically. 0.59
00:26:03.000 Create this like ball of fat, but it's still going to be human, alive, and obviously of the human species. 1.00
00:26:09.000 Should the mother be obligated to carry that partial molar pregnancy? 0.63
00:26:12.000 I don't know enough about that. 0.91
00:26:14.000 Okay.
00:26:15.000 So I can get back to you on that one.
00:26:17.000 Okay, sure.
00:26:18.000 Do you think, what do you like value?
00:26:21.000 Do you value it being like a human being?
00:26:23.000 Just being human beings?
00:26:24.000 Yes, human beings inherently are valuable.
00:26:26.000 Yeah, why are they inherently valuable?
00:26:27.000 Well, you want my religious definition or do you want my biological one?
00:26:32.000 Either one's fine.
00:26:33.000 Okay, well, I believe every human being is made in the image of God.
00:26:36.000 and therefore it's uniquely designed and crafted and created.
00:26:41.000 And since every human being is made in the image of God, we do not have the authority morally to destroy another being that bears the image of the Creator.
00:26:52.000 Okay, sure.
00:26:53.000 Yeah, so the idea, I believe, that God grounds this intrinsic value in a fetus, I don't think satisfies that.
00:27:02.000 I'm using them colloquially.
00:27:03.000 I'm not using them to dehumanize.
00:27:04.000 I'll use child, baby, whatever.
00:27:06.000 Because intrinsic value is also expected under the atheistic.
00:27:11.000 Like, hypothesis.
00:27:13.000 So, I don't know what kind of argument you're making here because, unfortunately, God itself is just not going to ground that a fetus is inherently valuable.
00:27:22.000 Okay, you asked for my scriptural analysis, but okay, let's just take.
00:27:25.000 I have no intention with it.
00:27:26.000 It is grounded under atheism, too.
00:27:29.000 Right, so therefore, okay, if you would agree that your life is valuable, my life is valuable, yeah?
00:27:34.000 I believe we're valuable because of our sentience, yeah, sure.
00:27:37.000 Okay, yeah, so we disagree.
00:27:38.000 So, but if a being is going to get sentience in a couple of weeks, Shouldn't you allow that being to continue to develop?
00:27:46.000 After it's born?
00:27:47.000 No, no, no.
00:27:48.000 In utero.
00:27:49.000 In utero, no.
00:27:50.000 I don't find it to be morally considerable before sentience.
00:27:53.000 Oh, got it.
00:27:53.000 So you can eliminate anything even though it's growing towards sentience?
00:27:57.000 Yeah, so are you making like a potential argument?
00:27:59.000 Well, I'm just making a rather rational one.
00:28:02.000 Just so we are clear, just you know, when a baby is born, your mental faculties of a baby are not completely sentient.
00:28:08.000 Like, for example, when a baby is five days old, they're only awake like two hours a day.
00:28:12.000 They can't speak, they cannot really reason.
00:28:15.000 And sentience is like barely there for a one week old or a two week old.
00:28:21.000 In fact, a brain is not fully developed until a boy is 30 years old.
00:28:25.000 So, what I'm saying is that the growth of the human being continues all throughout this process.
00:28:31.000 If you allow that process to go uninterrupted, the abortionist argument is that we are going to interfere with that development because of some convenient, it's too hard to raise the human being.
00:28:45.000 Yeah, so I think you're making this like it has the potential to actualize sentience, sure.
00:28:50.000 But also, if it's going to gain sentience in three weeks, I just said no.
00:28:54.000 It's not going to be morally considerable to not be unalived or killed, sorry.
00:28:59.000 But yeah, so I kind of forgot one point that you made.
00:29:04.000 What was it?
00:29:07.000 So, just so we are clear, humans are bodies and minds.
00:29:11.000 Yes, so we are more than just.
00:29:13.000 I remember the point that you made about the baby.
00:29:15.000 Yeah, so we gain sentience in the womb.
00:29:18.000 Are you aware of that?
00:29:20.000 Yeah, around eight weeks, nine to ten weeks, brainwaves are detected.
00:29:23.000 What's your argument for nine to ten weeks?
00:29:24.000 Brainwaves?
00:29:24.000 Brainwaves?
00:29:25.000 Yeah, brainwaves.
00:29:26.000 Yeah, okay, you're a little snarky.
00:29:28.000 You've got to calm it down a little bit.
00:29:29.000 Yes, okay, cool.
00:29:31.000 So, around nine to ten weeks, brainwaves are detected.
00:29:34.000 A baby can respond to a mother's voice around 27 weeks.
00:29:38.000 Around 20 weeks, we have some understanding that a baby's cognitive ability is being formed.
00:29:44.000 These are approximations.
00:29:45.000 Yeah, what is the argument that brainwaves are sentient?
00:29:50.000 What is the argument?
00:29:51.000 We actually don't know.
00:29:52.000 We're inferring it.
00:29:53.000 Yeah, so sentience is going to be the subjective experience where you can have interest, desires, and motivations.
00:29:58.000 And I find it that.
00:29:59.000 Hold on, hold on, hold on.
00:29:59.000 How do you know a newborn has interest, desires, and motivations?
00:30:02.000 Yeah, so I find it that they have the subjective experience.
00:30:05.000 And I said it can include things like interest, desires, which is going to include people like you or me, and we have interest, desires, and motivations.
00:30:11.000 Yeah.
00:30:11.000 So, I also find it that they're going to have a subjective human experience at, I'd say, within the second trimester.
00:30:19.000 I don't hold 20 to 24 weeks or after that.
00:30:22.000 I hold a 12 week cautionary stance because we need to do this.
00:30:25.000 Let's just do it.
00:30:26.000 Let's do this all the way.
00:30:28.000 You want to go all the way on this?
00:30:29.000 Let's do it.
00:30:30.000 What proof do you have that anyone is sentient?
00:30:32.000 Yeah, so we have proof that they're sentient on the basis of their thalamocortical conjunction and their conjunctions with their cerebrum.
00:30:40.000 It's a faith claim.
00:30:40.000 Are you going to make an argument for that?
00:30:42.000 Yes, definitionally, you don't know that anybody else is sentient except yourself.
00:30:46.000 How?
00:30:47.000 Because you cannot prove consciousness.
00:30:48.000 We don't know where consciousness exists in the brain.
00:30:50.000 How?
00:30:50.000 Why don't we know?
00:30:51.000 We can't.
00:30:51.000 We don't know where it is.
00:30:52.000 You can't see somebody else.
00:30:53.000 Are you going to expand on why we don't know?
00:30:55.000 Yeah, again, I'm getting there.
00:30:56.000 Like, did they teach you to talk like this at the University of Illinois?
00:31:00.000 Like, you're paying for this?
00:31:03.000 Like, jeez.
00:31:06.000 Again, I want to get to the other questions, but like, yes, this is called the consciousness paradox.
00:31:12.000 You do not know if anybody else actually has consciousness except yourself.
00:31:16.000 Everybody else could be an illusion.
00:31:18.000 It could be a mirage.
00:31:19.000 It could be a projection of artificial intelligence.
00:31:22.000 Sentience is, by definition, a faith claim.
00:31:25.000 We can guess it, we can infer it.
00:31:27.000 You cannot measure it, and you cannot see it.
00:31:30.000 Yeah, sure.
00:31:36.000 I'm going to make the claim on the basis of empirical data that we have thalamocortical connections that work in conjunction with our cerebrum that is going to allow us to have thoughts, desires, and motivations and have the human subjective experience.
00:31:50.000 Which those, the mind, sentience, is what makes us able to have complex intelligence and higher rationale as humans.
00:31:58.000 Right, again, so all of that, you could detect the effects of consciousness.
00:32:03.000 You cannot actually see consciousness itself.
00:32:05.000 Does seeing consciousness matter?
00:32:08.000 We see it in their neurological structures and mechanisms.
00:32:11.000 Again, you see the effects of it.
00:32:12.000 We can keep on going in circles.
00:32:14.000 Of course, I believe sentience exists.
00:32:16.000 You cannot measure it, you cannot see it, because you cannot, there is no.
00:32:21.000 There is no objective proof that somebody else is sentient except yourself.
00:32:25.000 You can just look at the effects of it.
00:32:26.000 But that's fine.
00:32:26.000 Again, we just disagree.
00:32:28.000 We as pro lifers believe that in the essence of a human being is your value and your worth.
00:32:33.000 If a human being is at one week or 10 weeks or 12 weeks, the process of development starts at conception and goes all the way through.
00:32:40.000 Higher faculties, higher rationality is an added bonus alongside the growth curve of what it means to be a human being.
00:32:47.000 And you do not become more human because your IQ is higher.
00:32:51.000 Or less human, or if you have Down syndrome.
00:32:53.000 The spectrum does not work that way.
00:32:54.000 You're equally human all the way through.
00:33:00.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.