00:00:00.000Hey, everybody, today the Charlie Kirk Show, Alan Dershowitz joins the program, and also we talk about the left's new push for segregation.
00:00:06.000That's right, you'll hear it yourself.
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00:01:06.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:01:53.000Now, if I were to just offer a recommendation, instead of, you know, protests in the streets and all that, which is not exactly helpful in some ways, it's fine if you want to do it.
00:02:05.000Just be very careful and be peaceful and don't allow federal agents as agitators in there.
00:02:09.000I think you should do something like we should just all fly our flags upside down for a couple of days, something like that.
00:02:54.000And it's the threat to civil liberties, due process, and our constitutional rule of law.
00:02:59.000And Alan Dershowitz, I disagree with him on politics on lots of different things, but to his great credit, has been consistent and principled about how government should not be used to be weaponized against political dissidents or opponents.
00:03:24.000It's sad for the country because now we're entering into a very dark phase where it's going to be back and forth and back and forth.
00:03:32.000And I'm afraid that's the only way to proceed because I'm not comfortable just allowing this to continually indict Donald Trump and come after Republican opponents and conservative opponents.
00:03:43.000So obvious and it's so clear that it's for political purposes.
00:03:50.000The Constitution is supposed to be a bedrock for all people, Regardless of power or status or race or color or creed or background.
00:04:03.000And they've now investigated Donald Trump relentlessly at every level of government.
00:04:08.000By the way, this might not be the last indictment.
00:04:10.000Fulton County is saying they might do it.
00:04:13.000So he might have two indictments and there might be one for Department of Justice for January 6th stuff.
00:04:17.000So he might have three indictments happening simultaneously.
00:04:23.000And Alvin Bragg is looking as if, I mean, they're putting up barricades outside of the Manhattan DA's office.
00:04:28.000Maggie Haberman and others in the New York Times are saying, well, it might not be tomorrow.
00:05:53.000Oftentimes, as attorneys, we can get sucked into the idea that this is about wins and losses and begin to try to figure out who would win a case when often what's happening is a lawsuit serves its own purpose.
00:06:06.000Either it moves you towards a settlement, or in this case, it has its own political implications as well.
00:06:11.000Just in the pursuit of understanding those political implications, on Tuesday, there will probably be photos of President Donald Trump in handcuffs.
00:06:18.000And that has its own political fallout.
00:07:12.000And I don't know about you, but that just makes me like him even more.
00:07:16.000If Donald Trump really was not a threat to the bad guys, if he really was not a threat to neoliberalism, they would be ignoring and laughing at him.
00:07:30.000But they know that there's something larger than life about this guy.
00:07:33.000There is a life force that they just can't contain.
00:07:36.000That there's an energy, there's a passion, there's an enthusiasm, there's a focus.
00:07:41.000And after two impeachments and the DOJ and Fulton County and New York and going through every business transaction from Bedminster to the Trump Hotel to Trump Tower, this is what they have.
00:07:59.000After a couple prosecutors passed on this previously and Stormy Daniels came out and denied having the affair, that should probably matter as well.
00:08:09.000They raided Mar-a-Lago back in the, we forget about that back in the fall over document disputes.
00:08:15.000It's interesting, the document thing has gone away because Biden has actually violated the document precedent far more egregiously than Trump did.
00:08:22.000But they're trying to break his personal will.
00:08:26.000They're trying to make him so distracted, so worn down, that he gives up, that he steps aside and says, I'm done.
00:08:34.000I'm going to just kind of give up my movement.
00:10:20.00031 whole fruits and veggies in a capsule.
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00:12:28.000And these are the same people that download the 1619 podcast and listen to the New York Times Daily and NPR and they think they're being great crusaders and they rush into Walgreens to get their three-year-old the COVID vaccine because they're neurotic freaks.
00:13:19.000They are not for a colorblind society.
00:13:21.000They want whites to live in certain neighborhoods and blacks to live in certain neighborhoods.
00:13:25.000They want to undo, they want to reverse any progress, moral progress that was done by the civil rights movement.
00:13:32.000Now, the Civil Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act had a lot of problems.
00:13:34.000We've talked about that on the program.
00:13:36.000Just read Christopher Caldwell's book, Age of Entitlement.
00:13:39.000Oh, by the way, this anti-racist article writer, she charges $14,000 per speech and she makes $728,000 just from speaking every single year.
00:13:59.000And then I'm a big believer in affinity space and affinity work.
00:14:03.000And I think people of color need to get away from white people and have some community with each other.
00:14:11.000And I'll let that go and maybe see if anyone else wants to pick it up.
00:14:16.000That's someone who writes books for your children, affinity space, that they have to get away from white people.
00:14:22.000They have to detach from white people.
00:14:24.000How is her argument right there any morally different than the presidential candidate who won a couple states and a couple electoral votes?
00:15:40.000The left is the same race-obsessed movement that they were when they owned slaves, when they brought slaves in, when they managed slaves, and then eventually when they created segregation.
00:15:51.000They have always been obsessed with race and they have a heart desire to re-segregate America.
00:15:59.000Under Robin D'Angelo's America, if you were to walk into a restaurant and you had bathrooms for whites and bathrooms for blacks, that would be acceptable to her.
00:16:10.000And she's considered to be smart and successful.
00:16:17.000Look, it's kind of a confusing time right now to be in the housing market.
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00:16:29.000Just this weekend, I was talking with my friends, Andrew and Todd from AndrewandTodd.com about a potential home that we might want to buy.
00:16:35.000And we were talking about the pros and the negatives and the cons.
00:18:04.000Reports indicate that this week, Donald Trump will be arrested in New York.
00:18:08.000No better guess to help us talk about how this is outrageous than the author of the book, Get Trump, The Threat to Civil Liberties, Due Process, and Our Constitutional Rule of Law, Alan Dershowitz, New York, number one New York Times bestseller.
00:18:20.000Professor Dershowitz, welcome back to the program.
00:18:22.000Well, you have to admit, my timing is pretty good.
00:18:27.000Did you have an inside source or something at the DA's office and you just timed it up with publication date?
00:18:33.000No, I just know who the DA is and that he wanted his 15 minutes of fame, but I didn't know when he would indict.
00:18:41.000You know, ironically, this is the weakest of the four cases that they're investigating against Trump, the weakest politically, the weakest legally, the weakest factually.
00:18:51.000And yet Bragg wants to be the first out there.
00:18:54.000Hopefully he's going to think of trying to get money for reelection from George Soros.
00:18:59.000But in any event, this is one of the weakest cases I've ever seen in my 60 years of practicing law.
00:19:05.000You know, they worked for months and months and months and months and went through every statute and they produced a mouse called Mickey.
00:19:24.000It seems so weak, so fragile, and also it just sets terrible precedent.
00:19:29.000If I understand it correctly, it was a private transaction that we do not know all the facts surrounding that they're applying to a campaign finance law.
00:19:37.000So now that personal finances can then impact campaign finance, even though it wasn't a campaign expenditure.
00:20:17.000It's only a misdemeanor with the statute of limitations, by the way, of two years.
00:20:21.000But now, if we can find that he was motivated to fraudulently enter these records in order to prevent himself from being caught for a federal crime, then it turns into a state felony.
00:20:35.000You know, the great Justice Robert Jackson once said any good prosecutor can rummage through the hundreds of statutes and pick out something with which to get somebody who they don't like.
00:20:47.000And that's not the way the law should operate.
00:20:49.000This is a perfect example of Get Trump.
00:20:51.000You know, the district attorney and the Attorney General of New York ran on the campaign to get Trump.
00:20:56.000I got the title of my book, Get Trump, from their campaign.
00:21:00.000They said, get Trump, and now they're trying to get him.
00:21:03.000And in New York, it's possible they will get him because it's a very blue city and it's a very likely to be biased against Trump jury pool.
00:21:12.000Now, it's, I think it's even worse than show me the man, show me the crime.
00:21:15.000It's show me the man, I'll make up the crime and kind of twist the statute.
00:21:19.000It's so, it's, I don't know if it's ever been used before, has it?
00:21:42.000They'll get an indictment because, as the chief judge of New York once said, a grand jury can indict a ham sandwich.
00:21:48.000And in New York, a petty jury will convict a ham sandwich if his name is Trump.
00:21:53.000And so there is a possibility that he'll get convicted.
00:21:56.000I think it'll be reversed on appeal, but by that time, we're well into the 2024 election.
00:22:02.000So this is a real interference with my right to vote against him for the third time and anybody else's right to vote for him for the third time.
00:22:11.000Let the electors decide who is going to be the next president, not some local DA who has a political bias and a political agenda to try to rerun for office on the basis of getting Trump.
00:22:24.000That just is not the way the American system is supposed to operate.
00:22:27.000Yeah, so Professor, you mentioned four cases.
00:22:40.000That actually is the strongest case legally and factually, but the weakest one politically, because the American public will say, if they didn't go after Biden and they didn't go after Pence, why are they going after Trump, even if the facts are somewhat different?
00:22:54.000So I don't think there'll be a prosecution for the Florida confidential material.
00:23:04.000That would be the most serious one because it involves disqualification from running for office if he's convicted of some kind of sedition crime.
00:23:14.000But the speech he made was constitutionally protected.
00:23:17.000He said he wanted people to demonstrate peacefully and patriotically.
00:23:57.000I encourage everyone to get it, Get Trump.
00:23:59.000One of the reasons why I think this is really powerful, Professor, is that you and I have lots of political differences.
00:24:05.000But we both agree that the justice system as it's designed in America, if it's properly enacted, is beautiful and is the standard of the world.
00:24:14.000But there are threats to our civil liberties beyond just getting Trump.
00:24:18.000Can you talk about how this is bigger than Trump?
00:24:20.000About if you're able to do this to political opponents and dissidents, it sets bad precedent.
00:24:24.000It allows prosecutors to go above and beyond, and it actually makes us less free.
00:24:30.000Without a doubt, there was a South American dictator who said, for my friends, everything, for my enemies, the law.
00:24:37.000You can use the law to get anybody, as Justice Jackson said, or as the KGB had said, show me the man and I'll find you the crime.
00:24:46.000This is the worst example in my 60 years of practicing criminal law, of targeting somebody for prosecution and then rummaging through the books, giving people immunity and trying to concoct a crime that doesn't exist.
00:25:00.000And if this is allowed to succeed, none of our liberties is safe.
00:25:03.000You know, today it's a Republican who's a target.
00:25:43.000No, and that's why it violates every core of American value.
00:25:47.000That's why this is one of the worst prosecutions I have ever seen.
00:25:51.000Believe me, I've seen some bad prosecutions, some good ones.
00:25:54.000I've seen guilty people acquitted and innocent people convicted, but I've never quite seen a prosecution like this where you had to staple together two unrelated statutes, one federal, one state, violate the statute of limitations, violate the rule of law, and concoct a crime.
00:26:11.000You know, Thomas Jefferson once said for a criminal statute to be constitutional, you have to be able to understand it if you read it while running.
00:26:20.000I'm sitting and I can't understand this prosecution.
00:26:24.000So, Professor, I want to ask something about kind of high society liberals that are pushing for this.
00:26:31.000And you've actually had a difficult couple years because of your principled stand.
00:26:35.000And you joke around that all of a sudden the dinner invite stopped as soon as you started to defend Donald Trump.
00:26:43.000But can you, can you, maybe you don't have a good answer to this, but can you help me understand what is the psychology of people that for years were classical liberals and donors to the ACLU and were always fighting for the little guy against the big, awful criminal justice system that, you know, civil libertarians that seem enthusiastic now about using the instruments of government power to go after a political opponent.
00:27:11.000People like my former colleague Lawrence Tribe and others who were good civil libertarians, now they're willing to trash the Constitution just to get Trump, no matter what it takes, just to get Trump.
00:27:22.000Look, some of these people think Trump is like Adolf Hitler.
00:27:25.000And, you know, we assassinate Adolf Hitler.
00:27:28.000And they want to legally assassinate Donald Trump, not physically, but legally.
00:27:33.000And they're willing to sacrifice the Constitution.
00:27:36.000What they say is a Trump presidency is more dangerous than unconstitutional actions.
00:27:43.000Precedents endure forever, as Justice Jackson said, they lie around like loaded weapons, ready for the hand of any tyrant to use it against their enemies.
00:27:54.000They're establishing a precedent that any tyrant today, it's again a Democrat against Republican.
00:28:00.000Tomorrow it could be a renewal of McCarthyism.
00:28:03.000You know, in the South, when I was growing up in the 1950s and 60s, the segregationist South used to go against target civil rights workers like Martin Luther King.
00:28:13.000They would find any little violation, any trespassing violation, anything, and use that to target them and lock them up and put them in jail.
00:28:44.000But, you know, it's shocking that the way people are prepared to violate their own principles and to create precedents that are so, so dangerous for their children and their grandchildren.
00:28:58.000You know, we look back today at people who own slaves.
00:29:00.000I think 100 years from now, people will look back at civil libertarians and say, why were you quiet?
00:29:23.000And I think people will be held to account for that in years to come.
00:29:28.000I may be unpopular today with people on the left, and I am, but I think history will vindicate what I've been saying.
00:29:36.000And, you know, I wrote my book, Get Trump for History.
00:29:39.000I want to make sure that my grandchildren and great-grandchildren know that I was on the right side of this issue, even though I voted against Trump.
00:29:47.000I stood up for the Constitution on behalf of Trump, which very, very few civil libertarians and liberals are doing.
00:30:26.000Boy, we're going to talk about what we can do to fight it.
00:30:28.000Part of it is actually reading your book.
00:30:30.000And I appreciate the moral clarity and the courage from Professor Dershowitz on this because so many people on the classical liberal side disappear when the topic of Trump comes up.
00:30:40.000Professor, you mentioned this, but I just want to recap.
00:30:43.000If you were from the prosecutor standpoint, or if you were President Trump's defense attorney, which I recommend you do that again, like you did in the impeachment, which is the strongest case against Trump?
00:30:51.000You said the document one, but you don't think they actually might advance that?
00:30:55.000I think that is the strongest case because factually there were classified material.
00:31:00.000Trump's defense is likely to be ID classified them.
00:31:03.000His lawyers haven't made that defense, probably because there's not a strong evidentiary basis for it.
00:31:10.000But juries won't convict and people won't accept a selected prosecution where they go after Trump, but not after other people.
00:31:18.000And I have said right from the beginning, if you go into any former president's residence, you're going to find some classified material, of course.
00:31:26.000People are careless, and there's no indication that any of the people involved did it for malicious reasons, unlike Sandy Berger, who we know put classified material into his sock in order to take it home just for convenience so he could write his book.
00:32:07.000They're planting cases against Trump, not a single one of them as the basis for succeeding.
00:32:13.000So, Professor, you made a strong comparison that failure to speak out against slavery 150 years ago was a moral injustice, and the failure to speak out about the political persecution against Trump is a moral injustice.
00:32:25.000And history will not judge those people kindly.
00:32:29.000Talk about the historical weight here.
00:32:31.000As you said, it's a double crossing of the Rubicon for something that is a novel, would put it nicely, but unique and complete just twisting of the legal code.
00:32:41.000Again, it's not as if they have a video of Donald Trump carjacking something, something that would be very visible, very violent, or something that would be Bernie Madoff-style pain or suffering.
00:32:52.000We're talking about a private payment and not even applicable in a way that would be rational.
00:32:58.000But talk about the historical significance here, Professor.
00:33:01.000The historical significance is for the first time in history, an election has been affected by a prosecution.
00:33:08.000Look, it may have been affected in 2016 by the ill-advised statement made by the head of the FBI, who was acting essentially as Attorney General when he gave his personal views of Hillary Clinton.
00:33:22.000But that was just one person's personal views.
00:33:47.000If you're going after the former president or a future potential president, it must be bipartisan.
00:33:54.000It can't be seen as in any way partisan with political advantage.
00:33:59.000The other is the Hillary Clinton stand, that she wasn't prosecuted, even though there was some, you know, pretty arguable evidence about her having in her possession material that she shouldn't have had.
00:34:10.000So unless you can satisfy those criteria, I don't think a criminal prosecution is warranted, especially when you have to make up the crime.
00:34:19.000And here, I think any honest criminal lawyer will tell you that this is a stretch beyond contortion, that this is not something that any responsible prosecutor would ever bring.
00:34:31.000As I said, in the Al Capone case, at least there was evidence that he actually violated the income tax laws, even though they went after him because he was a murderer.