The Charlie Kirk Show - God's Hand at Work with Jurgen Matthesius and Rob McCoy

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody.

00:00:00.000 Happy Sunday.

00:00:02.000 This long episode with Jurgen from Awakened Church and Rob McCoy from God Speak Church is made possible today, this Sunday, commercial-free.

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00:01:04.000 Dear Charlie, I just want to let you know that you've changed my grandsons' lives.

00:01:08.000 My daughter was a Democrat, and her beliefs have permeated my grandchildren's lives.

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00:03:05.000 And I know you're going to enjoy this conversation with Pastor Rob and Jurgen.

00:03:09.000 And for anyone that supports us this Sunday, we will randomly pick a couple of you guys to an assigned copy of the MAGA doctrine, the only ideas that will win the future, my book.

00:03:20.000 Rob and Jürgen are here.

00:03:21.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:03:22.000 Here we go.

00:03:24.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:03:25.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

00:03:27.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

00:03:31.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

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00:03:35.000 He's an incredible guy.

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00:03:43.000 Turning point USA.

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00:03:53.000 That's why we are here.

00:03:57.000 Hey, everybody.

00:03:58.000 Welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:03:59.000 And if you're watching this, it also might be on Godspeak YouTube channel.

00:04:02.000 Boom.

00:04:03.000 Is that right?

00:04:03.000 That's right.

00:04:04.000 Double posting, as always.

00:04:05.000 We are here at an undisclosed location fighting for freedom with my two good friends, both of them pastors with courage, my pastor Rob McCoy and my good friend, Jürgen Matusius.

00:04:17.000 Yeah.

00:04:17.000 Did I say that right?

00:04:18.000 Yeah, Matessius Matisius.

00:04:20.000 Okay, I was within the margin of error.

00:04:23.000 Massively in the margin of error.

00:04:25.000 Get as close as you can to the margin of God.

00:04:26.000 Okay.

00:04:26.000 Done and done.

00:04:28.000 Matessius.

00:04:28.000 There you go.

00:04:29.000 I'm going to just take notes while you guys teach.

00:04:31.000 So, Rob, what's on your heart?

00:04:33.000 Well, I think as we're navigating these waters, and I had brought this up to Jürgen, that the moniker we get participating in politics is we're labeled by the press as Dominionists.

00:04:50.000 Now, I don't know, you know, there's hard dominionists, soft dominionists, and anywhere where you have somebody participating in politics, they label you that.

00:04:59.000 So, just a lot of our listeners don't have the gospel is let alone dominionism.

00:05:04.000 I understand.

00:05:05.000 So, dominionism is this idea that Christians are to take dominion of the earth. 0.93

00:05:09.000 It's out of Genesis 1:28.

00:05:13.000 And we're to have dominion over all creatures.

00:05:18.000 So, the two schools of thought in Christendom is that we speak the word, similar to your sermon last night.

00:05:26.000 You speak the word and you obtain dominion over it.

00:05:30.000 And here at the table, Jürgen would be a hard Dominionist.

00:05:33.000 I would be labeled a soft dominionist.

00:05:35.000 I believe Christians should be involved in politics.

00:05:37.000 I'm a medium to be aware.

00:05:38.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:05:39.000 Well, I would probably.

00:05:40.000 I'm kidding.

00:05:40.000 Yeah.

00:05:41.000 I got you.

00:05:41.000 It's a child.

00:05:41.000 You're right.

00:05:42.000 Well, you're in the middle.

00:05:43.000 We knew that.

00:05:46.000 I don't know what to do now.

00:05:48.000 But the idea is, I do believe Christians should be in politics and this idea of speaking it into existence.

00:05:57.000 There's differences in Christendom in relation to that.

00:05:59.000 So that's a fun one.

00:06:01.000 But the one thing that the two of us, even though we're different in our theology, the one thing that we have in common is realization that however you look at it, we need to be involved.

00:06:10.000 Yeah.

00:06:11.000 Would you agree with that?

00:06:12.000 Yeah.

00:06:13.000 It's so funny because I got saved on a beach.

00:06:15.000 So, you know, my theology is kind of first-hand revelation from Christ from reading the scriptures and then, you know, maybe having arguments as I went through theological seminary.

00:06:28.000 So, you know, what I see in the scripture, and I believe that a lot of what is, you know, maybe called soft dominionism, I think what dominionism really means to break it down and make it simple is that God created sons and daughters to have authority over the earth.

00:06:49.000 And the Bible teaches, sadly, that there's the wicked and the righteous, and that there's a war, there's a battle over the planet.

00:07:02.000 And I honestly believe that the areas where the wicked rule, it's not because of a lack of God, but really an apathy or an indifference or a disengaging.

00:07:13.000 So Hosea 4:6 says, my people are destroyed from a lack of knowledge.

00:07:16.000 So I believe that we, you know, we are fools to not be engaged in politics. 0.97

00:07:21.000 We're fools not to be front foot on being engaged in culture, being engaged in education, in praying and understand, understanding our authority, the weapons of our warfare. 0.98

00:07:36.000 The Bible says in Christ are not weak, they're not carnal, but they're mighty in God for pulling down strongholds. 0.96

00:07:42.000 And so I've seen that, you know, so God works on two dimensions simultaneously.

00:07:47.000 He works on a micro level and a macro level simultaneously.

00:07:51.000 And, You know, when we look under a microscope at the intricacy of a snowflake, the detail, the design is amazing.

00:08:01.000 And then when we look through a telescope into the vast expanse of the cosmos, the detail is mind-blowing.

00:08:08.000 So God works both at the same time.

00:08:10.000 And so I've found that there's a congruency on what works for me personally is also what works for me family, community, city, nationally, globally.

00:08:22.000 So if I could ask a question as a devil's advocate, because I have two pastors around, so I have to use the term devil's advocate.

00:08:32.000 It's a good one.

00:08:33.000 This is so funny you forgot to laugh.

00:08:35.000 Jurgen laughed.

00:08:38.000 I get this question a lot.

00:08:39.000 We get it emailed twice.

00:08:40.000 Anyone watching can email us alwaysfreedom at charliekirk.com.

00:08:43.000 When you're saying devil's advocate, I thought you were talking about me.

00:08:45.000 That's why I'm worried.

00:08:46.000 It looks funny.

00:08:48.000 It's an expression of the advocate of the opposite position.

00:08:52.000 I love it.

00:08:53.000 Is a question I get all the time, Jürgen.

00:08:55.000 And we've talked about this and we've looked at it all different ways, but it's still predominant. 1.00

00:09:00.000 Christians stay away from politics, not worthy. 0.79

00:09:04.000 At least pastors will kind of say, go vote your values.

00:09:08.000 I'm not going to preach this from the pulpits.

00:09:11.000 Why is this not biblical?

00:09:14.000 Well, first of all, nowhere, and any pastor that says to you, you should vote your values is misleading you.

00:09:22.000 Yeah.

00:09:24.000 Vote God's values. 0.92

00:09:25.000 Always vote God's values. 1.00

00:09:26.000 You know, Jesus said, that's a good word.

00:09:28.000 When the disciples said, Lord, teach us to pray, like John taught his disciples to pray, he said, it's very simple.

00:09:33.000 Our Father, not my Father, our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

00:09:37.000 Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

00:09:41.000 So the earth reflects heaven the most when God's will is done.

00:09:46.000 When God's will is rejected, when you go to places where there's oppression and violence and poverty and trafficking and exploitation and destruction and misery, guess whose will's not happening?

00:09:59.000 God's will.

00:10:00.000 And so, and that happens because people voted their values, not God's values.

00:10:07.000 So, you know, Rob and I would agree that man is hopelessly flawed.

00:10:12.000 The Bible says that we are born with a bent towards sinfulness.

00:10:16.000 That's why we've got to be regenerated.

00:10:18.000 We have to be born again of God's Spirit and allow his regenerative power, which is called sanctification in the Bible.

00:10:27.000 It's the making of us wholly purifying.

00:10:30.000 So don't vote your values, vote biblical values, and you'll see biblical results. 0.71

00:10:35.000 And just outside of voting, because voting is just the very minimum, which not even every Christian does.

00:10:40.000 And I find this be a really perplexing point where a lot of people email us.

00:10:45.000 They say, I'm never voting again because I think the system is broken.

00:10:48.000 And I say, well, how long does it actually take you to vote?

00:10:51.000 Like 15 minutes at most?

00:10:52.000 So what kind of selfish outrage is that?

00:10:55.000 Let's pretend your vote is invalidated.

00:10:57.000 Just from a very simple, logical, just a logical equation, the upside of voting could potentially be making the difference in an election, like in Iowa.

00:11:07.000 The downside of not voting could be making the difference in the other direction.

00:11:11.000 The downside of voting would be that my vote doesn't count, which means I would have wasted 15 minutes.

00:11:17.000 It's one of the worst arguments ever.

00:11:19.000 I can guarantee you that the not voting will have a negative impact.

00:11:23.000 I can't guarantee you that the voting will have a positive impact.

00:11:26.000 It's actually one of the most simple and one of the most simple logical constructions I could think of.

00:11:31.000 Like, I'm not voting again.

00:11:33.000 That was a waste of time.

00:11:35.000 It's 15 minutes off your life at most if you go vote early.

00:11:38.000 Like, that was a real thing I'm never going to do again.

00:11:41.000 Yet you'll wait an hour and a half and in and out burger to go get a pile of calories that will require an angioplast.

00:11:48.000 Come to the side of Lipitor.

00:11:51.000 That I'm going to do again.

00:11:52.000 But the double-devil, hello.

00:11:53.000 Come on.

00:11:54.000 It's worth 30 minutes.

00:11:55.000 Of course it is.

00:11:56.000 Your republic is worth more than a double double in our children's future.

00:12:00.000 Just minor details.

00:12:01.000 Minor details.

00:12:02.000 How many people?

00:12:04.000 The point is that, and by the way, it's not a small amount of people.

00:12:07.000 They say it's just so broken.

00:12:08.000 I'm never voting again.

00:12:09.000 Yes.

00:12:10.000 And we got to stop that.

00:12:12.000 Yeah, it's apathy.

00:12:13.000 Yeah.

00:12:13.000 Well, you know, I even think it's an apathy and it's a discouragement.

00:12:16.000 That's what we had after this election in our church because I knew a number of people that actually helped organize a lot of the Trump boat rallies and even one of the boat, excuse me, the Trump car rallies.

00:12:32.000 And they had 34 miles, 30, never seen in California before.

00:12:38.000 And, you know, and many of these people came up to saying, oh, Pastor, you know what?

00:12:42.000 You know, we're kind of down with voting.

00:12:44.000 What's the point?

00:12:44.000 And I saw that they weren't doing that because they just needed re-encouragement and they need that word.

00:12:51.000 Hey, you know what?

00:12:54.000 There may be so much fraud in the system that it may be invalidated, but don't quit.

00:12:58.000 That's what they want.

00:12:59.000 They will win if you don't vote.

00:13:01.000 Let's not give them that.

00:13:02.000 Let's take that 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, even if it's an hour of your life.

00:13:07.000 It's worth it.

00:13:08.000 They won't have to do any shenanigans if you never show up.

00:13:11.000 That's right.

00:13:12.000 It's that simple.

00:13:12.000 It's to be present.

00:13:14.000 If you decide not to show up, then you have just given them what they've always wanted.

00:13:17.000 Yeah.

00:13:18.000 Which is your apathy becomes their monopoly on power.

00:13:21.000 Right.

00:13:22.000 So, with the idea of what he was talking about with dominionism and then how you described it.

00:13:28.000 So he would be a kingdom now theology.

00:13:32.000 I'm more of a reconstructionist.

00:13:34.000 But either way, wherever we're kind of placed, the fascinating thing about it is both Jürgen and myself believe Christians should be involved in the governance of the nation.

00:13:47.000 Now, the left is going to label us all dominionists and somehow try to make that term.

00:13:56.000 Why do they do that, Rob?

00:13:57.000 Because they want, in a sense, to shame us or mock us into us wanting to have a theocracy over the land as opposed to participating in a pluralistic society to contend.

00:14:11.000 But that's not what Jürgen believes.

00:14:13.000 No, no.

00:14:13.000 So that's more of a misinterpret.

00:14:15.000 It's an interpretation.

00:14:15.000 Yeah, it is a misinterpretation.

00:14:16.000 I'm working alongside the viewers.

00:14:18.000 Now, if you go with, if you go with, is it Bill Johnson at Bethel?

00:14:23.000 Yeah.

00:14:23.000 If you go with his idea, it's a little for me, it's an area I struggle with, quite frankly.

00:14:29.000 And I don't even want to get into it.

00:14:30.000 Sure.

00:14:31.000 I don't find Jürgen anywhere near that.

00:14:34.000 But the two of us together find commonality because we believe Christians need to be involved. 1.00

00:14:40.000 Now, the idea that non-Christians can be in government, I accept that. 0.98

00:14:46.000 That's the Galatians 3 model, where the law is a school teacher to point us to Christ and keep us safe until faith comes. 1.00

00:14:53.000 Let us all row in that direction.

00:14:54.000 Laws of nature, nature's God, revealed knowledge so that we can instruct children without, you know, that the law can be used in such a capacity to see God.

00:15:03.000 All creation speaks of the glory of God, so they start to see him.

00:15:06.000 And we want to govern our lives in such a way to flourish.

00:15:09.000 And we do have that picture of an Imago Day that we're created in His image and we want to obtain excellence.

00:15:18.000 But the secular progressive left labels us dominionists to somehow dismiss us as people who want to conquer and destroy anyone else's.

00:15:28.000 But nothing could be further from the truth.

00:15:31.000 It's the Christian worldview that creates a pluralistic society.

00:15:36.000 That's what I was going to say. 0.99

00:15:37.000 They're throwing homosexuals off buildings in the 1040 window, longitude and latitude, where 90% of the Muslim world exists. 0.99

00:15:43.000 But here you have freedom. 0.92

00:15:45.000 Yes.

00:15:46.000 Now, freedom can lead to bondage, but that sorry.

00:15:51.000 I interrupted you yourself.

00:15:52.000 No, I thought you were pausing there.

00:15:54.000 I was just going to amen what you were saying.

00:15:56.000 I was just changing clips.

00:15:57.000 Oh, and it was a good clip change.

00:16:01.000 But you go right around the world, Charlie, and it's what they accuse is the biggest lie of the devil because it's Christianity that actually, because we believe in free will.

00:16:14.000 So I was speaking two Sundays ago in church, and probably one of the most provocative revelations I've ever had is the first thing that God does with man is he gives man life.

00:16:25.000 The Bible says in Genesis 2 that God breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath of life, and Adam went from an inanimate to an animate, like he was animated.

00:16:35.000 Everything, all the systems, his central nervous system, his immune system, digestive system, respiratory, every system, it comes alive.

00:16:42.000 The next chapter, God puts him in a garden and says, of all the trees of the garden, you may freely eat except for that one.

00:16:49.000 You can't eat off that tree because it's mine.

00:16:51.000 So a lot of people say, well, hang on, why would God do that?

00:16:53.000 The reason God did that was because he was showing Adam, not only have I given you life, but I've given you freedom.

00:16:59.000 Because if you don't have the freedom to choose wrong, you're not free.

00:17:05.000 This is how powerful, this is how secure, this is how magnificent, and this is how benevolent and gracious and good our God is, that he gives us free will, knowing that we could have the option to reject him if we wanted to.

00:17:24.000 So we have some people that email us and they say we do not, they would call themselves Calvinists.

00:17:32.000 Yes.

00:17:34.000 Do you agree with that?

00:17:35.000 Yeah, look, honestly, that's probably my book, Push, Pray Until Something Happens, I wrote because of the massive problem that I have with five-point Calvinism.

00:17:47.000 Because they talk about the depravity of man and that we have no influence over God.

00:17:54.000 And yet all the way through the Bible, what are you talking about?

00:17:56.000 God was going to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.

00:17:58.000 Abraham intercedes and God recants. 0.60

00:18:02.000 Jonah gets out at Nineveh and preaches, yet 40 days and Nineveh will be overthrown.

00:18:08.000 And today we'd kind of be on YouTube claiming that Jonah was a false prophet because God spared Nineveh and his prophecy didn't come to pass.

00:18:15.000 So we see God moved again and again by men.

00:18:18.000 In fact, Ezekiel 22, 30, God said, so I sought for just a man among them who would build a wall, stand in the gap, cry out to me on behalf of the land that I might not destroy it.

00:18:29.000 So even in my devotions today, God is speaking to Moses and he calls Moses up on the mountain.

00:18:35.000 This is so funny.

00:18:36.000 I love God.

00:18:36.000 God is brilliant.

00:18:37.000 Calls Moses up onto the mountain.

00:18:39.000 So Moses trudges up to the top of Mount Sinai.

00:18:42.000 He gets up there and God says, now listen, this is what I want you to do. 0.65

00:18:44.000 I want you to go back down and tell the people not to come up.

00:18:49.000 He's like, you couldn't have told me.

00:18:51.000 So he's going to go all the way back down, tell all the people don't come up.

00:18:56.000 So then God says to him, and this is why, lest the people haven't sanctified themselves and the Lord break out against them.

00:19:05.000 So God saying, they can't come up lest I break out against them.

00:19:10.000 Then you fast forward a few chapters in Exodus 33, the Bible says, 34, Moses says to the Lord, Lord, show me your glory.

00:19:18.000 Show me your glory.

00:19:20.000 And the question that he's asking is beyond, beyond.

00:19:24.000 But God is so accommodating.

00:19:26.000 God says, you know what?

00:19:27.000 There's a place by me.

00:19:28.000 You'll stand on the rock, and I'm going to put you in the cleft in the cliff.

00:19:33.000 There's a crack in the cliff.

00:19:34.000 They're going to put you there, and I'll cover you with my hand so that as I pass by you, my face you won't see.

00:19:40.000 No one can see my face and live.

00:19:42.000 But as I pass by, I'll proclaim just my goodness, just one aspect of God, like a tiny little fraction of God, I'll reveal.

00:19:49.000 But the reason that God covered him with his hand was to protect Moses from God.

00:19:53.000 Because God is perfectly gracious, but he is also perfectly holy.

00:19:58.000 So the Bible says that righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.

00:20:03.000 Mercy and truth go before him.

00:20:06.000 Judgment Day is truth undiluted.

00:20:10.000 Judgment Day is you stand before truth and there is no mercy because you rejected mercy when Christ came.

00:20:16.000 Christ hanging on the cross is God's mercy.

00:20:20.000 The truth is, I deserve to go to hell for all eternity because I'm a sinner.

00:20:24.000 I was present at every single transgression, at every single violation of God's law that I committed.

00:20:30.000 But Christ came and hung on a cross and he took the wrath and the judgment.

00:20:34.000 So when I stand before God, I am covered by his mercy.

00:20:38.000 So the truth is blocked by his mercy.

00:20:41.000 And so judgment day is where we've rejected the mercy and now we have to stand in truth.

00:20:48.000 So there's these two dimensions.

00:20:49.000 So I go all the way back to the people that say that human beings have no really need to go back and read the Bible.

00:20:56.000 So what they've done is they've thrown out scriptures with a doctrine or a theology.

00:21:03.000 And I think that if you have a theology that has contradictions with scripture, you've actually got to change your theology rather than change the scripture.

00:21:12.000 What do you make of that, Rob?

00:21:16.000 My studies show me that Calvin was an attorney by trade, and he wanted to take indulgences and salvation out of the hands of man as the Catholic Church had held that over humanity's head.

00:21:29.000 So he worked backward on tulip.

00:21:32.000 So you have total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, and preservation of the saints.

00:21:37.000 Starting backwards, he wants to preserve the saints.

00:21:39.000 How do we keep that out of the hands of man and keep it completely with God?

00:21:43.000 And so the tulip works backwards.

00:21:45.000 And the one area that I struggle with is limited atonement.

00:21:50.000 And it's John 3.16 that I struggle with that.

00:21:53.000 But, you know, like with our group of pastors, you got Sam Musgrave and Vishal, I believe, is a Calvinist as well.

00:22:00.000 So again, we're all in opposition and different views, although we're more aligned.

00:22:08.000 And you have Calvinists that are probably very different than us, but we all agree we need to participate.

00:22:15.000 Now, I do know this, that man has free will.

00:22:18.000 How can God be completely sovereign and man still have a free will?

00:22:22.000 I don't know.

00:22:23.000 I have no idea how to explain that with a temporal mind, nor can I explain the Trinity, Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

00:22:29.000 The three are one and they talk to each other and answer each other.

00:22:32.000 But yeah, that gives me a, you know, I get stretch marks on my brain.

00:22:36.000 I can't explain that either.

00:22:37.000 But if I could explain it, that means God's only as big as my brain.

00:22:40.000 And trust me, he's not worth worshiping at that point.

00:22:42.000 Let's just give it up.

00:22:44.000 So I'm not a Calvinist. 0.99

00:22:47.000 I'm not an Arminiist.

00:22:48.000 I'm a biblicist.

00:22:50.000 Arminian was a theologian who really emphasized the free will of man in the same way to the detriment of the scriptures, avoiding and taking scriptures out of context to put the free will of man in such a profound place.

00:23:08.000 And that would boil down to where you stand on that spectrum of Calvinism and Arminianism.

00:23:15.000 That's where you're going to be a strong Dominionist or a Reconstructionist.

00:23:22.000 Calvinists are typically Reconstructionists that we can participate in that process because that's where God calls us.

00:23:26.000 We set up his kingdom on the earth. 0.66

00:23:29.000 We're observing.

00:23:30.000 So it's varied.

00:23:32.000 I'm not a Calvinist.

00:23:33.000 I'm not an Arminius.

00:23:34.000 I'm a biblicist.

00:23:35.000 But this is the last thing.

00:23:37.000 We are lots of time.

00:23:38.000 Well, I know.

00:23:39.000 But I hate this topic.

00:23:41.000 So this is why I think you guys brought it up there.

00:23:43.000 He did.

00:23:44.000 No, I'm just taking morning.

00:23:46.000 I know.

00:23:47.000 It's good.

00:23:49.000 I'm going to throw something out there.

00:23:50.000 It's going to be very provocative in a second.

00:23:51.000 Well, let me just say this last part.

00:23:53.000 For the record, I'm learning.

00:23:55.000 I don't know about any of this theology stuff.

00:23:56.000 Nothing about it.

00:23:58.000 And I would say that I'm scraping the surface of it.

00:24:01.000 I don't go that deep.

00:24:02.000 But the older I get, I'm 56 now.

00:24:05.000 The older I get, the more I see the sovereignty of God.

00:24:12.000 And I'm not a cessationist, which cessationist means that you believe that certain gifts died with the apostles.

00:24:20.000 I'm not a cessationist, although I was educated early on in my Christian walk to be a cessationist.

00:24:25.000 I've seen the gifts used, the ones that they say are no longer here. 0.97

00:24:30.000 I've seen them used, and I believe them.

00:24:32.000 Although I'm not, I don't practice in that realm.

00:24:36.000 Sure.

00:24:37.000 I just haven't thrown them out.

00:24:39.000 Your group of churches, or I would say your fellowship, does practice in those.

00:24:44.000 You're not going to hear anyone speaking in tongues in our fellowship, although we believe the gift is for today.

00:24:49.000 You're not going to hear anyone speaking in tongues in our church, but in your church, they will.

00:24:53.000 If we do, we'll have an afterglow where there's interpretation and there's prayer language, all this stuff.

00:25:02.000 Growing up, I longed to have that supernatural gifting and that connection.

00:25:11.000 But the more I've engaged in the political process and just the day-in and day-out grind, I've come to rely on his sovereignty and his presence.

00:25:20.000 It's an interesting progression or transition in my life.

00:25:25.000 And you were going to say a game changer.

00:25:27.000 What are you going to do?

00:25:27.000 It's a provocative statement, Jürgen.

00:25:29.000 So if you really want to mess with people's heads and begin a really, really great, a really great conversation.

00:25:39.000 That's what podcasting is for, a long-form podcasting.

00:25:41.000 In a provocative way is.

00:25:43.000 And this is not just shortened snippets.

00:25:46.000 So here's a truth that will certainly create some controversy.

00:25:53.000 The most powerful force in the universe is the will of man.

00:26:00.000 The will of man, this is how God created it.

00:26:03.000 The will of man can shut down the will of God.

00:26:06.000 And I'll explain.

00:26:07.000 The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish.

00:26:15.000 In Matthew, Jesus says that hell was not prepared for human habitation.

00:26:21.000 That hell was prepared for the devil and his angels.

00:26:25.000 And yet we know that human beings will end up in hell.

00:26:29.000 That there are humans that are in hell.

00:26:34.000 But they are not in hell because God willed for them to go there.

00:26:40.000 They are in hell because they chose with their will to reject God.

00:26:46.000 So let me just dig down deeper, just, you know, because I know that people are going to be emailing in.

00:26:50.000 How could a loving God send me?

00:26:52.000 I'm already getting the emails and we haven't published the episode yet.

00:26:55.000 So watch this.

00:26:56.000 What is hell?

00:26:57.000 What is hell?

00:26:59.000 So a lot of people, well, you know, it's a fire, it's Gehenna, you know, and so most people go immediately to try and find explanation through, you know, through biblical words.

00:27:10.000 But hell is very, very simple.

00:27:12.000 And if you take the whole counsel of scripture, hell is the place where God isn't.

00:27:18.000 So, you know, people say, you know, how could a loving God harden Pharaoh's heart?

00:27:22.000 Well, if you actually read the story, Pharaoh hardened his heart first.

00:27:26.000 Romans 1 tells us that because they did not, God gave them over to.

00:27:32.000 And then because they did not, God gave them over to.

00:27:35.000 So here is where the fear of the Lord comes for me, that God will ultimately give me whatever I want.

00:27:44.000 And so the people that end up in hell are the people that don't want God.

00:27:48.000 So God gives them what they want.

00:27:50.000 He gives them a place where he isn't.

00:27:53.000 So the Bible says in his presence is fullness of joy.

00:27:56.000 So guess what's not in hell?

00:27:58.000 There's no joy in hell.

00:27:59.000 There's weeping.

00:28:00.000 There's gnashing of teeth.

00:28:01.000 The Bible says that God is light and in him there is no darkness.

00:28:06.000 Hell is a place of darkness so thick that it can be felt.

00:28:09.000 God is peace.

00:28:11.000 Hell is a place of torment.

00:28:13.000 So hell is the one part of the universe that God has removed his presence.

00:28:19.000 So even the people that end up in hell go, but human beings, when God gave us free will, our free will.

00:28:27.000 So Jesus, you know, Rob and I would agree that Jesus had no sin, no sin.

00:28:33.000 Yet Jesus in Gethsemane has to pray three times.

00:28:38.000 Father, if it's possible for this cup to pass by and me not drink it, please, nevertheless, not my will.

00:28:46.000 Your will.

00:28:47.000 Thy will be done.

00:28:48.000 So even Jesus saw that his will had the possibility of canceling out the will of the Father.

00:28:56.000 It's a good little provocative thought.

00:28:59.000 Rob, do you have a response to that?

00:29:02.000 Because then I have an interesting wrinkle.

00:29:06.000 The response I would give would be, I would think a Calvinist response would be that would be a very troubling statement to take the sovereignty of God and subject it to being less powerful than the free will of man.

00:29:30.000 And that's, you know, that's obviously a vernacular that they would use less powerful.

00:29:33.000 Yeah, and that pendulum would swing over where they're going to say, I'm not putting that in the hands of man.

00:29:38.000 And that's why they create Tulu.

00:29:40.000 Yeah, so I would say that I'm physically more powerful than my wife.

00:29:44.000 But if I have to overpower her for her to do my will, then I'm not a good husband.

00:29:51.000 I get that.

00:29:55.000 But we could go deeper and kind of tear that or pick that apart a little bit, but I. What were we going to say?

00:30:03.000 No, I just, I find all of this very interesting.

00:30:05.000 And that's a profound thought process.

00:30:10.000 And I don't know if I agree or disagree with you.

00:30:12.000 No, and there's going to be people listening that immediately are going to be burdened by it.

00:30:17.000 I'm a very my Christianity is the inerrancy of scripture.

00:30:21.000 The deity of Christ.

00:30:21.000 Good man.

00:30:22.000 The deity of Christ.

00:30:23.000 The Trinity of God.

00:30:25.000 Death, resurrection of Christ.

00:30:26.000 Yes.

00:30:27.000 Death, burial, resurrection.

00:30:28.000 It's interesting.

00:30:29.000 And what I find to be so fascinating about all this is we have this group of pastors that, boy, if they were all sitting here, that would be.

00:30:36.000 It's eclectic.

00:30:37.000 There would be so much disagreement.

00:30:39.000 But there's a point to it, which is that, and as I've been in the political world as a Christian, now coming into the Christian world, I find that the principle that did keep the conservative movement together post-Reagan has not been applied to the Christian world because it just didn't have to be, which is, you know, if someone is 80% your ally, don't make them 100% of your enemy or adversary or whatever.

00:31:08.000 And I think that a lot of these theological disputes, which again, I'm not well-versed enough to go to Hosea 4, 6 or Ezekiel 22, 30.

00:31:08.000 Yes.

00:31:19.000 Maybe one day I will be.

00:31:20.000 Now you're good.

00:31:22.000 And what I think that is really interesting, though, is we're starting to see pastors of all different theological views and denominations now all of a sudden uniting on something they can all agree on.

00:31:35.000 Yes.

00:31:36.000 And that is the, I want to say the basics because it sounds so trivial, but the big stuff.

00:31:43.000 And then also, what do we do now?

00:31:43.000 Yes.

00:31:46.000 Okay.

00:31:47.000 We got different eschatologies.

00:31:48.000 We got different beliefs on the will of man or do you actually have will?

00:31:54.000 Is it an aberration?

00:31:55.000 Is it a trick?

00:31:56.000 But then we also, but we're all agreeing, though, on action.

00:31:58.000 Yes.

00:31:59.000 Is that a fair way to do that?

00:32:01.000 Desperation brings inspiration.

00:32:03.000 And when the grass is high, the fences disappear.

00:32:06.000 And so in a sense, we all come to this.

00:32:12.000 as we're being challenged as the bride of Christ, which I believe is a multifaceted diamond.

00:32:17.000 And there isn't a denomination that has it right.

00:32:19.000 Now, there are denominations that think they have it right, and they're going to be shocked to see some of us there.

00:32:24.000 And that's the arrogance.

00:32:26.000 As soon as someone says, I have the only or the most correct, the arrogance, the hubris to say that, we'd agree.

00:32:36.000 So what this has done is we're all figuring it out.

00:32:41.000 Well, but we're all being forced to be unified and find commonality, endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit and the bond of peace.

00:32:49.000 So you're seeing guys at a table, and if we brought that group of pastors together that are growing across the country, it would be crazy.

00:32:55.000 But all of us are saying, wait, we'll never have these discussions around the table if liberty in this nation is gone.

00:33:02.000 Yeah.

00:33:03.000 Well, and look, here's something that I've learned, that when you have something as true, which is the total truth of Jesus, something as powerful as the word of God, it's inevitable you're going to have different splinters and wrinkles and variations.

00:33:20.000 You're not going to be able to get around that.

00:33:21.000 You're not going to get around that.

00:33:22.000 And even if you look at, so Ephesians 4 is, so there's three sets of gifts because, you know, the Trinity.

00:33:28.000 So you have the, in Romans 12, you have the motivational gifts.

00:33:31.000 In Corinthians 12, you have the spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit.

00:33:34.000 And then in Ephesians 4, you have Christ who gives the ascension gifts.

00:33:40.000 And if you look at the five of those, you know, it's called the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

00:33:46.000 So if you look at that, the apostle says, hey, you know what the church needs to do, Charlie?

00:33:51.000 The church needs to, we need to be planting more churches.

00:33:54.000 It is proven that number one form of evangelism, most effective evangelism is church planting.

00:33:59.000 We need to plant more churches.

00:34:00.000 And the prophet says, hang on, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:34:03.000 Before we plant more churches, we need to start bringing truth.

00:34:05.000 We need to start bringing correction because we got people, they're living wayward lifestyle. 0.99

00:34:09.000 They're making dumb choices. 0.98

00:34:12.000 And then the evangelist says to the prophet, whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on. 1.00

00:34:17.000 You're down this road of teaching the people.

00:34:19.000 Man, do you know there are people lost on their way to hell?

00:34:23.000 We need to do everything we can.

00:34:24.000 We need to redirect all the budget.

00:34:26.000 And then the teacher says, hang on a minute.

00:34:28.000 Whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:34:28.000 We're not even.

00:34:29.000 And then the pastor says, we just got to love it.

00:34:31.000 Do you know how many people are in hospital?

00:34:32.000 How many people right now?

00:34:34.000 And so are they all wrong?

00:34:36.000 No, they're all right.

00:34:36.000 And Jesus set it up.

00:34:38.000 He throws five different giftings with five different viewpoints together.

00:34:44.000 So in Genesis 11, we see the first picture of unity in the Bible.

00:34:49.000 And unfortunately, it's the unity of the wicked. 0.96

00:34:52.000 So that's why you'll find that the Democrats, they can get behind the most crazy. 0.87

00:34:59.000 They unify.

00:35:00.000 And yet the righteous, the Republicans, we eat each other.

00:35:04.000 You know, we're not holy enough, not right enough, whatever.

00:35:07.000 And that's why Psalm 133 says how good it is, how blessed it is when brethren dwell together in unity, for there the Lord commands a blessing.

00:35:16.000 God will actually bestow a blessing if we can put our differences aside and focus on what we have.

00:35:23.000 When I went to Rob's church, I didn't look at any theology.

00:35:29.000 I saw a man who loved his God, who loved his country, who loved his beautiful bride, his beautiful family, and poured truth and grace.

00:35:29.000 You know what I saw?

00:35:42.000 Like I'd hardly seen to his congregation who were drinking from this fountain.

00:35:49.000 I thought, my God, this is one of the richest springs in California, if not in America.

00:35:55.000 And I thought, I just immediately fell in love with the McCoy's.

00:35:58.000 And I'm like, you know, and of course, you know, and that's, I think that's how God wired us. 0.99

00:36:02.000 You know, He's going to have a different experience with God, a different encounter with God, and I can learn and it sharpens me and it gets me to go back and revisit.

00:36:09.000 And I think that's how God wanted us.

00:36:10.000 If He made us all cookie-cutter and all cookie-cutter theology, I think there's something broken.

00:36:16.000 There's an old adage when He put pastors in a room, it's called the porcupine theory.

00:36:22.000 And you got a lot of great points, just keep them away from me.

00:36:26.000 That's right.

00:36:27.000 And the quills have to come down, and it doesn't mean at the expense of truth.

00:36:31.000 And of course, as you describe these different offices, you know, to a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

00:36:37.000 And every strength comes with a weakness, an unguarded strength is a weakness.

00:36:41.000 And so we endeavor to keep that union of spirit in the bond of peace.

00:36:43.000 And vice versa.

00:36:44.000 When I went to your fellowship, things I'm unfamiliar with in my own fellowship, but blessed beyond measure, knowing that we're a kindred spirit, knowing we're knitted.

00:36:55.000 We'll work out the details later.

00:36:57.000 We believe in the deity of Christ, the Trinity, the inerrancy of scripture.

00:37:00.000 And as we venture into these different areas of theology and someone's going to want to slam you and play whack-a-mole, calm down.

00:37:07.000 We got work to do because we got to roll in the same direction for the sake of the nation.

00:37:10.000 What I feel called to do, though, is, and we're starting to see it, is start to motivate and organize these pastors to have unified purpose because you don't have robust theological debates of dominion, dominionism versus reconstructionism or soft dimensionism or dispensationalism in North Korea.

00:37:29.000 It just doesn't happen.

00:37:31.000 That sort of debate, if you don't get the fundamentals right of the society that allows you to do those things, pretty much nowhere in the 1040 window, longitude, latitude, 90% of the things.

00:37:41.000 So let's get into that.

00:37:43.000 Why is the Christian church then?

00:37:45.000 Let's just say generally, I mean, you guys, again, we're not going to get into the disagreements.

00:37:49.000 You have different churches, different ways of doing it, but you agree on the big things.

00:37:53.000 Why all of a sudden are you two finding yourself to be totally in agreement and lockstep on action items?

00:37:59.000 What changed?

00:38:00.000 This would not have happened a decade ago.

00:38:02.000 Let me jump on this one.

00:38:03.000 Yeah, please.

00:38:04.000 Yeah.

00:38:05.000 I was hoping you would.

00:38:08.000 It comes down to the church for the last 50 years has been doing church.

00:38:15.000 And as you've articulated with the concept of ecclesia in Matthew 16, upon this rock I'll build my ecclesia, my assembly.

00:38:24.000 And liberty and equality are above the doors on a secular term.

00:38:27.000 Hundreds of years ago.

00:38:28.000 Isinomia and Loutheria.

00:38:29.000 Isinomia and Eleutheria.

00:38:32.000 Long before Jesus had used that term, it was a secular term.

00:38:35.000 He didn't say synagogue, he didn't say temple, he didn't use a religious term.

00:38:39.000 So we're to engage in the public square.

00:38:42.000 And from the public square, then we can have this debate and reason together on pre-trib, pre-millennial, post-trib, you know, pan-trib, where it all pans out in the end.

00:38:55.000 We can go through all these different aspects.

00:38:57.000 We can argue our eschatology, the sovereignty, Calvinism, Arminianism.

00:39:01.000 But we will never be able to have that debate if there's not freedom.

00:39:05.000 Yes.

00:39:05.000 Yes, exactly.

00:39:07.000 And freedom comes.

00:39:08.000 Yes.

00:39:09.000 Freedom is a byproduct of liberty.

00:39:12.000 I always say that when the Apostle Paul says, stand fast, therefore, in the liberty for which Christ has set you free, he wrote that in prison when he wrote that to the church in Galatia.

00:39:20.000 He wrote that from prison.

00:39:22.000 So liberty isn't freedom.

00:39:25.000 Freedom is having choices.

00:39:26.000 Liberty is doing what's right.

00:39:29.000 Proclaim liberty throughout the land, the law, the wise restraints that make men free.

00:39:33.000 Free, when you have restraints, then you have options.

00:39:37.000 Meaning, you apply restraints towards evil in order to pursue excellence.

00:39:42.000 You'll be able to enjoy things at a level never before obtained by man because you applied restraints.

00:39:47.000 And the illustration I use is Patrick Mahomes, you know, Super Bowl win, unbelievable game.

00:39:55.000 And while he was playing and enjoying football at a level of excellence I would never attain to, the reason why is because I watched it from a comfortable chair with a big bowl of potato chips and a big Coke.

00:40:08.000 And I wasn't practicing every day watching game films.

00:40:12.000 And he took it to a level that very few could achieve because he applied restraints when others wouldn't get up in the morning to exercise or to lift weights or to watch the game films.

00:40:20.000 He did.

00:40:21.000 We know that as human beings.

00:40:24.000 And so all of this, regardless of Calvinism, Arminianism, Biblicist, Dominionist, Reconstructionist, whatever they label, we all know this.

00:40:37.000 It's critical that liberty is God's idea, not man's idea.

00:40:41.000 And as his bride, we must contend in the ecclesia for that.

00:40:45.000 And so we're rowing in the same direction.

00:40:46.000 Yes, amen.

00:40:47.000 Does that help, Charlie?

00:40:48.000 It does.

00:40:49.000 I would even just add on to that that, you know, Jesus said this, and it was so beautiful.

00:40:55.000 He said, a new commandment I give you.

00:40:59.000 You know, Jesus says, a new command that I give you.

00:41:01.000 By this will all men know that you're my disciples if you have love for one another.

00:41:05.000 And what we saw in the body of Christ is we saw the elevation of our, you know, what we perceive were our theological differences.

00:41:14.000 And our differences defined our denominations.

00:41:18.000 You know, the Baptists believe that they have baptism right because they believed in full immersion baptism.

00:41:24.000 And you got to baptize backwards, not forwards.

00:41:26.000 Yeah.

00:41:27.000 And so it just got out of control.

00:41:29.000 Whereas Jesus said, by this will all men know you're my disciples if you have love for one another.

00:41:34.000 So what I found, you know, being married 29 years is that Leanne has some things that, you know, I'm just not, you know, like I like sport.

00:41:48.000 Her sport is shopping.

00:41:50.000 And I, you know.

00:41:51.000 Is that going to be the Olympics this year?

00:41:53.000 Probably. 1.00

00:41:54.000 I mean, my wife would win gold if it was an Olympic sport.

00:41:58.000 But she loves.

00:42:01.000 If I go shopping with her, and I'm telling you, after 10, 15 minutes, I am, my brain is already done.

00:42:08.000 Like with me too.

00:42:09.000 But she loves it.

00:42:10.000 And so because I love, because I love her, and I think when it comes to the body of Christ, what I like, I love.

00:42:17.000 And when, you know, quite often not, I love people of all these denominations because I see the fruit of what they're doing.

00:42:23.000 I see the heart and I see the heart they have for Christ.

00:42:26.000 And they preach Christ and Christ crucified.

00:42:28.000 And they're boasters in the Lord.

00:42:31.000 And you see the hand of God.

00:42:33.000 And then I love, because I come from such a dysfunctional, broken family.

00:42:38.000 I look at the pastor and the next thing I look not very far, I look to his left and right.

00:42:44.000 And I look at his bride and his kids.

00:42:46.000 And, you know, when I met Michelle and when I met, you know, just Mikey, I mean, just stunning.

00:42:52.000 So I fell in love with Rob.

00:42:55.000 He could have all kinds of crazy, I love him.

00:42:59.000 It's not going to change.

00:43:00.000 And for me, in fact, I'm going to look forward to sitting at the table.

00:43:04.000 And I think that, you know, that's something that I've learned, but I've learned it because it's a value of Christ that we should have love.

00:43:13.000 And this will.

00:43:15.000 No, go ahead, please.

00:43:16.000 But people, you know, I think when we start ostracizing different people from different denominations, are we exercising love?

00:43:25.000 Look what we're saying, though.

00:43:26.000 This is the funniest thing, is that we've been told to stay away from politics.

00:43:29.000 Politics is not bringing the church together.

00:43:31.000 It is.

00:43:31.000 Isn't that the craziest thing?

00:43:32.000 Come on, give me something.

00:43:33.000 That's a good word.

00:43:34.000 But that's the whole point is that Jürgen, Rob, Cadiz, Ken Graves, Engelhardt, John Randall, Hibbs, Phil Green, Frank Farrington, Greg Franklin, Farrington, all the kind of like we love Jesus, we love God, we believe in the Nicene Creed.

00:43:50.000 I don't think you guys believe that Nicene Creed.

00:43:53.000 And all of a sudden, it's like, oh, we have a beautiful country.

00:43:55.000 We're losing it.

00:43:56.000 Let's start to act.

00:43:57.000 All of a sudden, what if in a unique twist of events, politics is now going to be the unification of the church?

00:44:05.000 Well, the ecclesia is what we're supposed to be pushing back the gates of hell on.

00:44:08.000 So the church is operating in its wheelhouse.

00:44:11.000 And I would also add last night when you gave that screaming message, and it was phenomenal.

00:44:17.000 I've never seen so many people come to an altar.

00:44:19.000 Oh, I couldn't believe it.

00:44:20.000 It was so great.

00:44:22.000 But you pointed out, you talked about how Christianity is a bottom-up religion and that our founders created a government that are so...

00:44:30.000 It's bottom-up.

00:44:31.000 But I thought about something, Jürgen.

00:44:34.000 I thought when I shared with you prominent and preeminent, that there are some prominent individuals in Christendom that are preachers, musicians.

00:44:46.000 They're prominent.

00:44:47.000 They're gifted and they're prominent.

00:44:48.000 They have followers.

00:44:50.000 They've got a social media presence.

00:44:53.000 They sell and they fill buildings.

00:44:56.000 They're prominent.

00:44:58.000 But their followers and their prominence and their popularity is more important to them than the preeminence of Christ.

00:45:08.000 Yes.

00:45:09.000 Because to take a stand on certain issues that would lose your prominence, you compromise that.

00:45:13.000 And I would say this, when you said that Christianity is bottom-up, it's so good.

00:45:17.000 And the problem that we're facing in America is we have a top-down government now where everything is being centralized to federal, where they wanted to push it down to the individual, we the people.

00:45:27.000 From the pulpits of America, we got to be careful.

00:45:30.000 We talk about an anointing on an individual.

00:45:33.000 Push it out to the people.

00:45:34.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:45:37.000 When we start to equip the people to be the sovereign of the nation, we the people, when we equip them to be disciples, to understand how we live together, you don't lie, cheat, steal.

00:45:50.000 These are necessary moral knowledge.

00:45:53.000 And then all of a sudden the church finds unity and commonality.

00:45:57.000 But when we are wanting to centralize it and make it about an individual and the popularity and the prominence of that individual, then we have to define ourselves.

00:46:07.000 We're not like them.

00:46:09.000 We baptize backwards, not forwards.

00:46:11.000 And we'll show you this.

00:46:12.000 But the cool thing is that the political fight right now, the ecclesia as it's meant, the well-being, maybe that's why that word was used because all of a sudden you're seeing churches acting more cooperatively in a way you've never seen before.

00:46:26.000 And so, you know, let's really get into that where we have a lot of people and my heart breaks for them, but we're going to solve this problem for them where, first of all, a lot of people that have come to your church because of politics, a lot of people that have come to your church because of politics, and politics, which is the highest form of community, according to Aristotle, because it morality and sociability.

00:46:44.000 That's right.

00:46:45.000 And we could do a whole podcast on Aristotle at a different time, which there's a lot there to unpack.

00:46:52.000 But what the interesting thing is, a lot of people, we're going to fix this.

00:46:56.000 A lot of people email us.

00:46:57.000 They say, I live in South Carolina.

00:46:58.000 I live in New York.

00:46:59.000 Go to Engelhart's church.

00:47:00.000 I go to Rhode Island.

00:47:01.000 My church isn't open.

00:47:02.000 My church isn't political.

00:47:03.000 They're staying away from it.

00:47:04.000 What do I do?

00:47:05.000 What's amazing to me is that we need to get more pastors active on this.

00:47:09.000 We got to get more people.

00:47:10.000 And so let's just take this right here.

00:47:13.000 Right now, someone is listening to this on our podcast in the state of Wisconsin.

00:47:18.000 I don't know one pastor who's open or conservative in the state of Wisconsin.

00:47:21.000 I'm sure there is one.

00:47:23.000 But like, let's just, what do they do if they're going to a church that isn't currently political and they're they're discouraged?

00:47:29.000 What do they do?

00:47:30.000 Well, I'll answer that question.

00:47:32.000 Let me just make this shout out.

00:47:34.000 Okay.

00:47:35.000 Yeah, if you're a pastor in Wisconsin and your church is open and you don't have mass and there's no social distancing, would you please contact us?

00:47:43.000 And you're teaching Bible-based.

00:47:45.000 Yeah, you hold to the essentials, the deity of Christian energy scripture.

00:47:45.000 Yeah.

00:47:49.000 I know someone in Albuquerque, Steve Smotherman.

00:47:51.000 Yes, come on.

00:47:52.000 We got Albany in Charlotte.

00:47:53.000 Charlotte.

00:47:54.000 Troy.

00:47:55.000 Troy Maxwell.

00:47:55.000 Yeah.

00:47:56.000 Freedom House.

00:47:56.000 Yeah, we know.

00:47:57.000 So we're starting to build that network.

00:47:58.000 And as we build the network, and then for the folks that can't find it, the Equilisia network.

00:48:02.000 I love that.

00:48:02.000 Come on.

00:48:03.000 The Ecclesia Network.

00:48:04.000 The Ecclesia Network.

00:48:06.000 Yeah.

00:48:07.000 That's solid.

00:48:08.000 Or the Wisconsin thing.

00:48:08.000 I like that.

00:48:10.000 Yeah, I just picked that on my hat, right?

00:48:12.000 Yeah.

00:48:13.000 I would say the first thing you do is tune in to one of the folks whose church is open.

00:48:20.000 Don't live stream a church that is only doing live streams.

00:48:23.000 I totally agree with that.

00:48:24.000 Don't reward that.

00:48:25.000 Yeah, don't reward that.

00:48:26.000 Tune into a church that is and then contact us and then we'll reach out to you and then we'll also do our best to find you a pastor that's open.

00:48:36.000 We will find you one.

00:48:37.000 Yeah.

00:48:38.000 And so I just had someone in New York and they said, hey, who do I go to?

00:48:42.000 Engelhardt's Church.

00:48:43.000 King's College.

00:48:44.000 Yeah, Dasa sign in David Engelhardt. 0.95

00:48:47.000 That's a good German name.

00:48:48.000 That's right.

00:48:49.000 Oh, yeah.

00:48:50.000 And I had somebody else email me from right in North Georgia and I connected them with Frank's Church.

00:48:57.000 Yeah.

00:48:58.000 Calvary Chapel, Chattanooga.

00:49:00.000 And someone just emailed me about your church in San Diego, literally an hour ago.

00:49:04.000 And they were like, where do I go?

00:49:05.000 I was like, is Jürgen there?

00:49:07.000 I was like, Awaken Church.

00:49:08.000 Go.

00:49:09.000 And now we got Pastor Burnett right here in Arizona.

00:49:12.000 Phoenix.

00:49:13.000 Dream City Church.

00:49:13.000 Dream City.

00:49:14.000 Wide open, great.

00:49:15.000 Let's go a level deeper, though.

00:49:16.000 And this is the other question we get because we have really active listeners.

00:49:16.000 Okay.

00:49:20.000 They say, Charlie, I'm burdened.

00:49:22.000 This pastor has been teaching me for 15 years.

00:49:26.000 I've tied to this church.

00:49:28.000 They've helped my marriage.

00:49:30.000 They helped my finances.

00:49:32.000 And now we are not seeing eye to eye on this.

00:49:34.000 What are they supposed to do?

00:49:36.000 All right.

00:49:37.000 That's a tougher question.

00:49:38.000 Well, it's not a tough question.

00:49:41.000 They helped you for a season.

00:49:42.000 Thank them for that input into your life.

00:49:44.000 Be gracious.

00:49:45.000 And lovingly and kindly say, at this season in my life, I don't see this church operating to restore and maintain our nation.

00:49:58.000 And I don't see that you feel that this is important.

00:50:01.000 I love you.

00:50:02.000 Thank you for all you've done.

00:50:03.000 We're not leaving in anger.

00:50:05.000 We're just leaving.

00:50:07.000 What would you say, Jurgen?

00:50:09.000 Yeah, you know, I would agree.

00:50:11.000 I think I would maybe at least have a conversation maybe prior to that one with that pastor because the nature of a pastor is, you know, he's the shepherd.

00:50:27.000 And the shepherd loves the sheep, has the smell of sheep on him, cares for the sheep.

00:50:32.000 So, like, like Pastor Rob was saying before, you know, a hammer sees everything as a nails.

00:50:37.000 Every strength also has a weakness.

00:50:39.000 And so if we identify that the weakness of a pastor, like a good pastor really cares for his sheep, but the weakness is that you can care too much what the sheep think or say.

00:50:52.000 And so there's a lot of pastors right now who, because of the mask mandates, the mystery with the COVID, the BLM stuff, all the deaths, the spiking, Dr. Fauci, you know, like all of this kind of stuff have felt like, my God, I am not, am I not protecting my sheep if I'm not open, if I'm not stepping back, if I'm not.

00:51:14.000 And I think what we need to do is we need to, because courage is infectious.

00:51:14.000 Yes.

00:51:19.000 When I went and saw what they were doing at God Speak Church, that courage leapt into our spirit.

00:51:25.000 We went down resolute on how we were going to move forward.

00:51:29.000 And despite the bullying and the intimidating of our city and the hit and smear pieces that are still pretty much every week in the media, we're not flourishing.

00:51:41.000 And we're flourishing, but we're not changing track.

00:51:44.000 We are open without masks, without social distancing.

00:51:48.000 Now we've got polar ionization units.

00:51:50.000 We've got temperature check as people walk in.

00:51:55.000 There's something more important than that, though.

00:51:56.000 You have liberty.

00:51:57.000 We have freedom.

00:51:57.000 We have liberty.

00:51:58.000 That's why we're here, right?

00:51:59.000 We're not here to be locked away and thrown out.

00:52:02.000 And the longer we go is.

00:52:03.000 By mandate.

00:52:04.000 And as Pastor Rob says, the longer we go on this thing, the more we find out.

00:52:04.000 Yes.

00:52:07.000 It's 99.98% recovery rate.

00:52:11.000 Why are we killing shattering businesses and wrecking our children's education and mandating the wearing of masks?

00:52:20.000 But I would just say have a conversation with your pastor and just say, hey, listen, would you listen to Turning Point USA?

00:52:25.000 Would you listen to Charlie Kirk?

00:52:27.000 Would you go and podcast Godspeak?

00:52:29.000 Would you listen to some of their podcasts?

00:52:31.000 Because their podcasts, with the people that he's interviewing, who are in the medical field, who are in the political field, who are behind the scenes.

00:52:39.000 These are people who are working day in, day out.

00:52:42.000 The information is out there.

00:52:45.000 There's almost no excuse.

00:52:46.000 And what pastors just need is they need courage and they need camaraderie.

00:52:51.000 And I think that's what the Ecclesia network is going to produce.

00:52:58.000 I think it would be real helpful and qualifying.

00:53:02.000 We've had that question before.

00:53:04.000 And I did share what Jürgen shared: that you go and approach the pastor and try to reason with him.

00:53:10.000 But I was assuming that the question, forgive me, I thought assuming the question was, they've already tried to do it.

00:53:14.000 And a lot of those questions, they have.

00:53:16.000 Yeah.

00:53:17.000 So I would add that it would be good that we put on an Ecclesia pastors conference.

00:53:25.000 And in addition, we put on an Ecclesia congregant conference where they can come and be educated in understanding a realm that has been neglected by the body of Christ for over 50 years and revisit the things that we're planning.

00:53:40.000 I know we are.

00:53:42.000 I was just priming the pump, Charlie.

00:53:44.000 I love it.

00:53:45.000 San Diego, I hear, is nice this time of year.

00:53:46.000 It's a wonderful time of the year.

00:53:48.000 It's pretty much nice all year.

00:53:50.000 And so a lot of Christians got fired up through both of you.

00:53:55.000 You guys have congregants that came to you and all of a sudden they're like, you know what?

00:54:00.000 I'm into this political thing.

00:54:01.000 June of 2020, I'm going to do it.

00:54:03.000 You know, they started to give money, maybe to Trump.

00:54:06.000 They started to knock on doors.

00:54:07.000 And then all of a sudden they saw, we lost.

00:54:10.000 I don't like that.

00:54:12.000 And they're saying, I'm never doing this again.

00:54:14.000 I'm not going to get involved.

00:54:15.000 I'm not going to do this.

00:54:16.000 Can you guys speak to the long-term nature of the commitment to save the Republic?

00:54:19.000 Because there's some people that got on the political sugar high, as I call it.

00:54:23.000 Yeah.

00:54:23.000 Right?

00:54:24.000 They took a lot of sugar in.

00:54:25.000 They're like, whoop, I love this thing.

00:54:27.000 Yeah.

00:54:27.000 Right?

00:54:27.000 We're going to see a real win.

00:54:29.000 Yeah.

00:54:29.000 Love America.

00:54:30.000 And all of a sudden, for me, I'm a little unfazed by it because this is a multi-generational struggle.

00:54:34.000 Yeah.

00:54:35.000 Can you guys speak to that?

00:54:38.000 I'll jump on it because for our congregation, I had prepared them because I'd already run four times for office.

00:54:45.000 I'd won three of the four elections.

00:54:48.000 And they were used, being in California, and Jürgen can testify to this, we're used to losing.

00:54:54.000 Everything we vote for loses every election.

00:54:57.000 But we know that we're in this for the longer haul.

00:55:01.000 And what it did is the people that were on a sugar high realized it was idolatry.

00:55:08.000 So how do we make sure that Christians getting involved don't make an idol out of politics?

00:55:13.000 Because they never get discouraged to continue.

00:55:18.000 They keep at it because what they do, they do is under the Lord.

00:55:21.000 That's exactly what it is.

00:55:22.000 So let me throw this.

00:55:23.000 I've got four kids.

00:55:26.000 My youngest two, Tommy, is now here at GCU.

00:55:30.000 He's 19.

00:55:31.000 Zoe's 12.

00:55:33.000 And in Tommy's last couple of years in high school, he was playing high school football.

00:55:38.000 And he was kind of like a second or third string wide receiver.

00:55:44.000 And that kid worked so hard in the summer.

00:55:50.000 And the summer of 2017 was brutal.

00:55:54.000 I mean, hot.

00:55:57.000 Like, you know, we were having the Santa Ana's 100 degrees and he's there twice a day, 6 a.m. and then back there at 2 in the afternoon, practicing till 5 o'clock, 6 o'clock at night in his sweats.

00:56:10.000 He would come home and his football gear stank.

00:56:14.000 You could wring his shirt out.

00:56:16.000 And he got, in the first five or six games, I think he had maybe three minutes of game time.

00:56:23.000 And I could see he was discouraged.

00:56:27.000 And they, and the coach kept playing running games rather than throwing games.

00:56:33.000 And we had a really brilliant quarterback, but the coach, his disposition is running.

00:56:38.000 He doesn't do throwing.

00:56:40.000 And so even many of the parents, you know, angry.

00:56:43.000 Anyway, so we're in the car going home, and I could see he's discouraged.

00:56:47.000 He's worked so hard, and he's got so little to show for it.

00:56:52.000 But it was such a powerful teaching time that, son, it's part of the team.

00:56:56.000 It's part of what we do.

00:56:57.000 And the discipline of that. 0.99

00:56:59.000 I remember Zoe worked really, really hard to play volleyball. 1.00

00:57:02.000 And their first game, they got obliterated.

00:57:06.000 I mean, destroyed, three games to zip by, and what they did was they played last year's champions in the very, very first game.

00:57:14.000 And this was Zoe's first year playing volleyball.

00:57:16.000 Well, she's crying in the car. 0.99

00:57:17.000 She doesn't want to play anymore. 0.98

00:57:19.000 She's no good at it.

00:57:21.000 And so we just had to teach.

00:57:22.000 And I think, you know, one of the things we've got to remember as we go down the theology road, that there was probably no greater theologian and Rob will agree than the Apostle Paul, wrote two-thirds of the New Testament.

00:57:38.000 He says this.

00:57:39.000 He says, you know, you guys have got a thousand instructors, so a thousand people who can teach.

00:57:44.000 Remember, he's a Pharisee, so he's used to the scribes and the chief priests.

00:57:48.000 Because you guys have got a thousand instructors, but you have very few fathers. 0.69

00:57:53.000 And he saw one of the deficits is they had theology coming out, the wazoo.

00:57:59.000 But he says, what's missing right now is the spirit of fathers.

00:58:03.000 When God wanted to overthrow Sodom and Gomorrah, you know what he did?

00:58:06.000 He sent in a father.

00:58:07.000 Avram means exalted father.

00:58:11.000 When Jesus taught us to pray, he didn't say omnipotent creator.

00:58:15.000 He taught us to say our father.

00:58:17.000 And I think that what we've got to recognize is that our congregations, yes, we're the pastor, but even more than that, there's a spiritual father.

00:58:28.000 And that absolutely, they worked all summer.

00:58:31.000 And they came home with dripping wet from door knocking.

00:58:35.000 And yeah, we took a licking.

00:58:37.000 But it's all part of the process.

00:58:39.000 And this is what teamwork looks like.

00:58:41.000 And it's just that father encouragement.

00:58:42.000 Just keep going.

00:58:43.000 This is good for you.

00:58:44.000 The discipline.

00:58:45.000 We're going to get a win.

00:58:47.000 You're going to get a game, Tom.

00:58:48.000 We're going to have a, it might be a small victory.

00:58:50.000 We may win on a school board.

00:58:51.000 We may win a local election.

00:58:53.000 But I think it's just that spirit of father.

00:58:55.000 Well, and the left has been doing ecclesia while we've been doing church.

00:59:01.000 I agree that Paul was the greatest theologian, but Luke wrote more of the New Testament than Paul did.

00:59:10.000 Luke and Acts, more pages.

00:59:12.000 Oh, more pages?

00:59:13.000 Paul wrote more books, but just saying. 0.99

00:59:16.000 Shut up, Rob. 0.99

00:59:17.000 The porcupine thing. 1.00

00:59:18.000 Yeah.

00:59:18.000 Porcupine.

00:59:20.000 And that's the reason why there's Protestant ministers is because the position of Pope is taken.

00:59:24.000 We want to prove to everybody that we're right.

00:59:26.000 You know, we're just, it's crazy.

00:59:28.000 I have a relative whose name I'll leave out, Navy SEAL, training with the boats during Bud's week.

00:59:37.000 His team was always behind.

00:59:39.000 They carried these boats, small team, but I think seven guys to a boat, carried them on their head.

00:59:43.000 They had to run everywhere in Coronado with these things.

00:59:46.000 They had a weak link on that.

00:59:48.000 They got rid of that guy, got another one in.

00:59:50.000 They began to win every race.

00:59:52.000 The Buds instructors were yelling at my relative, saying, you know, you need to be in the front.

00:59:59.000 So he runs out in the front instead of pacing his team.

01:00:02.000 He gets back and wins the whole thing, puts the boat down, and the instructor says, we didn't tell you to put the boat down.

01:00:07.000 Makes them do lunges with the boat until they're exhausted, lets everyone go.

01:00:11.000 The next team comes out.

01:00:12.000 They have to do lunges with old misery, which is a big 700-pound oak log.

01:00:17.000 And he realizes he's let his whole boat crew down.

01:00:19.000 They're all going to DOR.

01:00:20.000 They're going to drop on requests.

01:00:21.000 They're done.

01:00:22.000 And he feels responsible for it. 0.59

01:00:23.000 Finally, when it's all said and done, and they're doing lunges and they're exhausted, they let him go to the chow hall.

01:00:28.000 They get there.

01:00:29.000 The instructors come over.

01:00:31.000 They won the thing and they were punished.

01:00:34.000 And all these guys, you know, he's destroyed his team.

01:00:37.000 They get to the chow hall.

01:00:39.000 The instructors come and they think they're all going to get demerited and get in trouble.

01:00:42.000 They write him up positively.

01:00:45.000 And they said, and this was the instruction, when it doesn't make sense and it's overwhelming, you didn't quit.

01:00:55.000 And as my relative, nephew, his point was, if I'm ever going to go to war, I'm going to go with those guys.

01:01:03.000 Yeah.

01:01:03.000 Because I know they won't quit even when it's crazy.

01:01:06.000 And our entire congregation through each of these things has been strengthened.

01:01:09.000 Yes.

01:01:10.000 Amen.

01:01:11.000 And it's all part of the equipping.

01:01:13.000 It's okay.

01:01:15.000 Did you ever, on that, I just had my brain, forgive my brain.

01:01:19.000 There's still parts of it that God is still redeeming.

01:01:22.000 Did you ever see that Olympic gold that Australia should have won in the rowing?

01:01:28.000 No.

01:01:28.000 And they were like literally 50 yards out.

01:01:32.000 They were like almost three quarters of a boat ahead.

01:01:35.000 And then one of the rowers quit.

01:01:38.000 One of the Australian rowers? 0.72

01:01:39.000 One of the Australian rowers in the female.

01:01:41.000 To celebrate? 0.96

01:01:42.000 No, she just quit. 1.00

01:01:44.000 She just quit. 0.91

01:01:44.000 And then she got peed that the teammates were upset with her. 0.91

01:01:52.000 And then because we have a very left-wing media, they were saying...

01:01:55.000 Through a sexist or something? 0.76

01:01:57.000 Well, it was all females, but it was like that the left-wing media came out defending her and she has the right. 1.00

01:02:02.000 She doesn't have to. 1.00

01:02:03.000 You know, if she wants to quit, she has it. 1.00

01:02:05.000 And it's like, well, don't compete in the freaking Olympics. 0.98

01:02:10.000 But she literally, if you watch it, it's, I won't say her name, but she became a household name. 0.98

01:02:16.000 The media had one spin, like she's the victim.

01:02:19.000 The rest of Australia were like, what a jackwagon that you are like literally 50 yards from the finish line and then she just kind of collapses and doesn't just like she doesn't just stop rowing she lunges back on the rower behind her and takes the takes her Out as well.

01:02:37.000 So they got no medal.

01:02:38.000 So they end up silver instead of gold.

01:02:41.000 Silver instead of gold because she quit.

01:02:43.000 And so, you know, it literally divided the nation.

01:02:48.000 Again, what year was this?

01:02:50.000 It's going to go back maybe a dozen years or more.

01:02:53.000 But watch this.

01:02:54.000 When they say that, you know, America is divided.

01:02:57.000 But Baden's Beijing Olympics.

01:03:03.000 When they say America is divided, you know where the division is?

01:03:06.000 The division is between the elites and we the people.

01:03:10.000 They're trying to make us believe, oh, no, the division is amongst we the people.

01:03:13.000 Oh, no, it's not.

01:03:15.000 No, it's not.

01:03:16.000 You come to my church.

01:03:18.000 We have 135 different nationalities in our church.

01:03:24.000 They're a very diverse church.

01:03:25.000 Very diverse.

01:03:27.000 And they all get on a Sunday.

01:03:29.000 There's no, what are you talking about?

01:03:29.000 What are you talking about?

01:03:31.000 There's no division between the elites.

01:03:35.000 Yes.

01:03:35.000 And we're seeing it right now.

01:03:36.000 Oh, we've got to have re-education camps.

01:03:39.000 Oh, we've got to do something about the only division is in the elites and we the people.

01:03:44.000 That's where the division is.

01:03:45.000 It's not fragmented here.

01:03:47.000 And I think we've got to just keep encouraging our people that, hey, we may lose some battles before we win, but every loss we're learning, every loss we're getting closer.

01:04:00.000 The difference in the church, the division in the church is part of the church sees Christ as prominent.

01:04:07.000 He's preeminent.

01:04:08.000 Yes.

01:04:09.000 Can you talk about the difference?

01:04:10.000 Well, the difference is it doesn't matter if we lose every battle.

01:04:14.000 We're told to do it.

01:04:16.000 And Christ is preeminent, and my job is to be obedient. 0.72

01:04:20.000 You know, when Jim Elliott died at the hands of the Akaw Indians, and you have a Christian programmer saying to Elizabeth Elliott, isn't it wonderful that they all came to Christ? 0.71

01:04:35.000 His death wasn't in vain. 0.93

01:04:36.000 Yeah, wow. 0.69

01:04:37.000 And she stopped him and she said, had not one Indian come to Christ, his death wouldn't have been in vain.

01:04:43.000 Yes, exactly.

01:04:43.000 He was obedient.

01:04:44.000 I mean, like, just humbled the guy right there.

01:04:46.000 And Elizabeth Elliott was a force to be reckoned with.

01:04:52.000 The prominence is you're prominent in the Christian music world.

01:04:56.000 You are gifted.

01:04:58.000 You've got talent.

01:04:59.000 You've got followers.

01:05:00.000 Like a certain liberal.

01:05:01.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:05:02.000 Exactly.

01:05:03.000 And you know what?

01:05:03.000 I don't, honestly, I don't know the man.

01:05:05.000 Sure.

01:05:06.000 But he's prominent.

01:05:07.000 Yes.

01:05:08.000 His music's prominent.

01:05:10.000 But when an immutable trait, a God-given, immutable trait is used to define racism.

01:05:22.000 That's not biblical.

01:05:23.000 No.

01:05:24.000 And so you're prominent.

01:05:27.000 Yeah.

01:05:27.000 But Christ is no longer preeminent.

01:05:30.000 You're following and your concern over what others will think has taken precedent over God's word, which is preeminent.

01:05:40.000 That's a problem.

01:05:41.000 That's a problem.

01:05:42.000 And what it comes down to, Charlie, is the Bible talks about the glory of the Lord shall cover the earth or the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth.

01:05:51.000 But it's amazing because the devil offers human beings fame.

01:05:56.000 So we were created to walk in fellowship with God, to experience the glory of God.

01:06:05.000 And my pastor in Australia says this.

01:06:07.000 He says, the beautiful thing about God is God never lets the glory rest.

01:06:12.000 The Son glorifies the Father.

01:06:13.000 The Father glorifies the Son.

01:06:15.000 They never let it rest.

01:06:16.000 And yet, human beings, we think we can handle the glory.

01:06:20.000 We can't.

01:06:21.000 And so the devil offers fame.

01:06:25.000 If you view all the kingdoms of the world and their glory and their splendor, if you will bow down before, I will give all of these to you.

01:06:31.000 And what happens with people with success, and this is the kingdom of Nimrod, which is the spirit of the world, is that these artists become successful.

01:06:42.000 They have followings.

01:06:43.000 And it's not just artists.

01:06:45.000 It's preachers of mega churches that have mega followings.

01:06:48.000 And what happens is, and Pastor Rob's right, they make it an idol.

01:06:51.000 It becomes idolatrous.

01:06:53.000 But what they do is they stop giving all the glory to the Lord.

01:06:58.000 And they actually start looking for fame for themselves.

01:07:01.000 And so it's all about their Instagram followers, their Facebook, you know, their hits, their likes, and all that kind of stuff.

01:07:07.000 We were never created to be that.

01:07:08.000 One of the favorite stories I remember reading as a really early Christian is that of a lighthouse keeper.

01:07:14.000 And this lighthouse keeper is a young apprentice.

01:07:17.000 And there's this massive storm.

01:07:19.000 And these waves are 30, 40 feet high, smashing and literally shaking the lighthouse.

01:07:25.000 All of a sudden, one wave hits so big that it extinguishes the light.

01:07:30.000 And they know that there are ships out at sea in these massive seas trying to get into the harbor.

01:07:35.000 And they're the last lighthouse before the harbor.

01:07:38.000 If they don't get that light on, these ships are going to be smashed against the rocks.

01:07:42.000 So the lighthouse keeper says to the young apprentice, he says, we're going to have to go climb on the outside rail in the pitch black with these massive seas to manually turn the light on.

01:07:53.000 And the young apprentice says, but if we go out, we may never come back.

01:07:59.000 And at that, the lighthouse keeper puts his hand on the young apprentice's shoulder and says, we have to go out.

01:08:05.000 We don't have to come back.

01:08:07.000 And I remember it just was such a powerful story that it just resonated in my early Christianity days that what God is asking me to do, it's not pragmatic.

01:08:19.000 It's not based on guaranteed outcome.

01:08:22.000 It's based on would I be...

01:08:24.000 Many years ago, he asked me when we started our church in San Diego.

01:08:30.000 The Holy Spirit asked me crazy questions.

01:08:31.000 He asked me this question.

01:08:32.000 He says, could Judas serve on your team?

01:08:35.000 I'm like, what?

01:08:36.000 He's like, could Judas serve?

01:08:37.000 I'm like, oh, not a chance.

01:08:38.000 Not a chance.

01:08:39.000 I said, let me just tell you right now, my team are so loyal, they love me.

01:08:43.000 I said, and I know them.

01:08:44.000 And I'd sniff him out like that.

01:08:45.000 And then the Holy Ghost goes, oh, so you think I made a mistake?

01:08:50.000 And then he asked me again.

01:08:51.000 And I realized what he was saying is saying, could you pour into someone?

01:08:55.000 Could you love someone?

01:08:56.000 Can you invest into somebody?

01:08:59.000 Even if in the end they would hurt and betray you.

01:09:02.000 What he was doing, God is always measuring.

01:09:05.000 He was measuring the capacity of my heart to determine the level of ministry he could entrust me with.

01:09:12.000 And I began to realize, oh my God, forgive me.

01:09:15.000 You didn't make a mistake.

01:09:16.000 Yes, Judas could serve on my team.

01:09:17.000 I'm not serving for guaranteed outcomes.

01:09:20.000 I'm not forcing loyalty.

01:09:22.000 I'm obedient because that's what you require.

01:09:25.000 The outcome, that's icing on the cake.

01:09:29.000 Yeah.

01:09:32.000 I'm going to take that and say in my observations of you, Charlie, especially at Turning Point, you've seen people come in and out of this organization, and many have gone on to have unbelievable success and prominence.

01:09:48.000 I've been with you through some trying times, some very difficult circumstances and challenges to this organization.

01:09:59.000 And I have never heard you derogatorily speak of anyone who's left this organization, nor anyone who works at this organization.

01:10:09.000 And love hopes all things.

01:10:12.000 And people are not the enemy.

01:10:13.000 They're the opportunity.

01:10:14.000 We're going to get hurt.

01:10:16.000 We wish them well.

01:10:18.000 If they lie to us, that breaks our heart.

01:10:22.000 But everyone's flawed and we move on.

01:10:26.000 And I think that there's going to be a capacity for that in the coming days where we're going to realize if we don't stand together, we're going to fall apart.

01:10:35.000 I don't know who the Judas is in the organization. 0.54

01:10:37.000 I may be the Judas in the organization. 0.65

01:10:39.000 It's one of those things where you're like, is it me, Lord?

01:10:41.000 Is it me?

01:10:42.000 One of you betrayed me.

01:10:44.000 Well, the Judas example is even harder to comprehend because Jesus knew he was going to betray them.

01:10:49.000 Well, and none of the other guys knew it was him because Jesus treated his enemies the same way he treated his friends.

01:10:55.000 And he got to carry the money back.

01:10:56.000 And Jesus knew it.

01:10:57.000 He's like stealing.

01:10:59.000 It was crazy.

01:11:01.000 So I think that that is, that's a fair assessment for us to apply to our lives.

01:11:10.000 That I watch you.

01:11:12.000 You engage with the lowest and the highest as far as organizationally, and they're all the same.

01:11:18.000 And I know you don't like this, but I'll say this one thing for folks.

01:11:22.000 I've been with you when you asked me to share Christ with a friend.

01:11:27.000 I won't tell everyone who it was, but suffice it to say, I didn't know who it was.

01:11:35.000 And most people in the world would have never have gone to a dinner with that individual to share Christ with them.

01:11:42.000 They would have gone with ulterior motives to get something from them.

01:11:45.000 And I didn't even know who he was till later.

01:11:48.000 And I've watched this, that it's always about people.

01:11:53.000 It must be because our role is to make sure that folks live in such an environment governmentally that they flourish.

01:12:03.000 And I never tire that.

01:12:04.000 Thank you for the beautiful, I mean, for someone who's 27, the level of Christ's character.

01:12:12.000 We are never more like Christ than when we forgive.

01:12:16.000 You know, the Bible says it's the glory of the Lord to overlook a transgression.

01:12:21.000 You know, the Bible says that love covers a multitude of sins.

01:12:23.000 So Christ's hanging on the cross.

01:12:25.000 The Romans pierced his wrists with nails.

01:12:29.000 Crown of thorns, mock spat, you know, the whole thing. 0.57

01:12:32.000 Now they're gambling for his clothes, and Christ says, Father, forgive them.

01:12:35.000 They don't know what they do.

01:12:36.000 Number one, they're not asking.

01:12:37.000 Number two, they're not deserving.

01:12:39.000 But Christ didn't come all that way to then all of a sudden have a character change on the cross.

01:12:44.000 Who God is is he's a forgiver.

01:12:48.000 We are never more like Christ than when we forgive transgressions.

01:12:53.000 And sadly, we're never more like the evil one than when we hold bitterness and resentment.

01:12:59.000 And life's too short.

01:13:01.000 Life's too short.

01:13:02.000 Are we going to get wounded?

01:13:03.000 Absolutely.

01:13:04.000 You know, God loves people.

01:13:07.000 When the Bible says, for God so loved the world, it's not, he didn't love terra firma.

01:13:10.000 He loved humanity.

01:13:12.000 He loves people.

01:13:13.000 They bear his image in his likeness.

01:13:14.000 And the reason that we're engaged in politics is because politics, at the end of the day, affects people.

01:13:21.000 It affects the welfare.

01:13:23.000 It affects the care.

01:13:24.000 It affects the opportunity of people.

01:13:26.000 So for a church to say, hey, I'm loving the things of God, but I'm not engaged in politics is an oxymoron.

01:13:33.000 If you love God and if you love people, you will be engaged in the political arena because it affects lives.

01:13:42.000 But if you love politics more than people, you'll compromise the protection of the people for the sake of your power from politics.

01:13:49.000 Or you become a Democrat.

01:13:53.000 Or an establishment Republican.

01:13:54.000 Or establishment Republican.

01:13:55.000 Or a rhino.

01:13:56.000 Exactly.

01:13:57.000 Well, Jürgen, you got a dash?

01:13:59.000 You know what?

01:14:00.000 I got a text message that's still going.

01:14:02.000 Okay.

01:14:03.000 Yeah.

01:14:03.000 So I've got longer if that's all right.

01:14:04.000 Yeah, of course.

01:14:05.000 So I want to keep on building that out, unless, Rob, you have to dash.

01:14:10.000 Well, I got about 10 minutes or five, 10 minutes, but I will say about Jürgen.

01:14:14.000 Very casual.

01:14:15.000 Yeah, amen.

01:14:16.000 I'll say this about Jürgen.

01:14:18.000 When you describe the picture of Christ on the cross, the thing that always hits me, he's God, right?

01:14:24.000 Yeah.

01:14:25.000 Nails don't hold God to a cross.

01:14:28.000 He's God.

01:14:29.000 Yeah.

01:14:30.000 Loved it.

01:14:32.000 Yeah.

01:14:32.000 He willingly laid his life down for us.

01:14:35.000 And we do the same for others.

01:14:36.000 Yeah.

01:14:37.000 While we were yet sinners.

01:14:38.000 Yeah.

01:14:39.000 We serve really difficult people.

01:14:41.000 So, Jürgen, I want to pick up on what you just said there.

01:14:44.000 And Rob, you can cut us off whenever you have to dash.

01:14:46.000 Yeah, I'm sorry.

01:14:47.000 Yeah, I'm good.

01:14:48.000 So keep going.

01:14:48.000 Bring it in.

01:14:49.000 It's great.

01:14:49.000 Great, bring it.

01:14:50.000 Which is that if you, and I love the way you framed it, which I think that every pastor should hear that, so we're going to make sure they do.

01:14:59.000 Which is that if you care about people, if you care about humanity, then it's almost impossible not to also care about politics.

01:15:06.000 We have to.

01:15:08.000 We have to.

01:15:09.000 And this, this kind of system of government the founders gave us, yes, which was biblical truth with enlightenment values, which is God, the realization of God's creation.

01:15:19.000 That's all the Enlightenment was: the enlightenment of what God had already created.

01:15:23.000 They didn't create anything new.

01:15:24.000 Yes.

01:15:25.000 They just discovered what was already there.

01:15:26.000 Yes.

01:15:27.000 Newtonian physics.

01:15:28.000 Yes.

01:15:28.000 They were just, oh, wow, look at all of this that's already here.

01:15:30.000 Now we can articulate it and we can better master the world around us.

01:15:35.000 The system is so good that you're allowed to not care about politics.

01:15:40.000 Yeah.

01:15:41.000 Is that now that it's changing?

01:15:43.000 All of a sudden, pastors that previously were on the fence are saying, well, maybe I have to get back in.

01:15:47.000 Where it's impossible to say you care for the welfare of the city around you.

01:15:52.000 Jeremiah 29 something.

01:15:54.000 29-11.

01:15:55.000 Well, actually, I'm going to scale through that.

01:15:57.000 Yeah, no, it says, I know the plans I have for you, but the previous verses up to 29-11.

01:16:01.000 Pray for the peace of the city.

01:16:02.000 The peace of the city, the welfare.

01:16:04.000 It's impossible to care about the downtrodden and not also care about politics.

01:16:10.000 Politics is such an overused term.

01:16:14.000 We've used it a lot on this conversation, this podcast.

01:16:18.000 I just prefer civil society.

01:16:20.000 Yeah.

01:16:21.000 And it's impossible not to care about civil society if you actually care about the welfare of the people.

01:16:26.000 And if you think you can do it outside of civil society, having a civil society, you need the framework.

01:16:33.000 Don't call it politics, it's called ecclesia.

01:16:35.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:16:36.000 Don't call it politics called ecclesia.

01:16:38.000 That's right.

01:16:38.000 Yeah, which is what it is.

01:16:40.000 And so every pastor, regardless of their fluency in government, must begin to step up and speak about this.

01:16:49.000 And the Bible says a lot about civil government.

01:16:52.000 Yeah.

01:16:53.000 Can I jump on just one thought that I think that has almost become like even the reluctant pastor, we've been able to almost like strong-arm to the table and get an exasperated agreement and alignment is around the topic of abortion.

01:17:11.000 I completely agree.

01:17:12.000 So let me give you three biblical perspectives on why just using the window of the issue of abortion, that pastors should be involved in politics if they really care about people.

01:17:27.000 Of the three, the first one I would say is this: Jesus said, Whatever you do for the least of these my brethren, you did unto me.

01:17:38.000 There is no more least than the hidden.

01:17:42.000 David writes in Psalm 139, you knit me together in the hidden in the dark, in the womb.

01:17:49.000 You skillfully wrought me together when I was yet unseen.

01:17:53.000 Jesus taught that if you are faithful in what is least, you'll be faithful in much.

01:18:00.000 But if you are unfaithful in what is least or unjust in what is least, you'll be unjust with much.

01:18:05.000 So if there's a political party saying, hey, listen, we want to slaughter and dismember in the womb the most innocent among us, but trust us with your health care.

01:18:16.000 Trust us.

01:18:18.000 We're going to look after social security.

01:18:21.000 We're going to look after Medicare, Medicare for all, free health care.

01:18:25.000 Do you really think that you can trust these people, the welfare of your health?

01:18:31.000 I guarantee you, watch this, the party, and it's happened all through history, that is pro-abortion is also the party that once they get that across the line is pro-euthanasia.

01:18:44.000 They kill at this end and they kill at this end because it's all about political expediency.

01:18:49.000 It has nothing to do with welfare.

01:18:51.000 So the first one is whatever you do for the least of it.

01:18:54.000 The second one is we should care about, you know, all the ultrasounds, all the science now tells us that life begins at conception, that there is a heartbeat, a detectable heartbeat within six days.

01:19:08.000 I mean, this is a little human being, and we should fight for all lives, even unborn lives.

01:19:15.000 And the third one is a biblical is a little bit deeper in theology.

01:19:18.000 But the third one is this.

01:19:20.000 When the children of Israel, when God finally brings them into the promised land, they've gone through the wilderness wandering 40 years.

01:19:27.000 All the naysayers are gone.

01:19:29.000 It's the Joshua and Caleb generation.

01:19:31.000 God's bringing them into the promised land.

01:19:33.000 He gives them this very, very stark, very sobering reality check.

01:19:39.000 And he says, do not think that I am bringing you into this land that I promised Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, a land flowing with milk and honey, because of your goodness, because of your righteousness. 0.88

01:19:51.000 He says, the reason I'm bringing you into this land is because of the transgression, the wickedness of the people in this land who caused their sons and daughters to pass through the fire to Moloch, who sacrificed their children to Baal. 0.89

01:20:08.000 He says, when you enter the land, when I give you this land, be careful not to do the same things that they did because they shed innocent blood, the land vomited them out. 0.94

01:20:19.000 So Psalm 24, verse 1 says, the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof. 0.50

01:20:24.000 The reason the devil is so driven to bring abortion is because he knows that the righteous part of God must at some point say, enough is enough.

01:20:38.000 I have to avenge the shedding of innocent blood.

01:20:42.000 And the devil now is able to have a field day, his agenda, which is destruction driven by a hate.

01:20:50.000 Now, he hates Charlie Kirk, not because of what Charlie Kirk does.

01:20:55.000 He hates Charlie Kirk because of who Charlie Kirk is.

01:20:59.000 When he looks at you, he sees that you bear the Imago Day, the image of God, the image of the one who dismissed him from his place, and he is filled with a rage.

01:21:11.000 He hates humanity. 0.70

01:21:14.000 He hates people.

01:21:15.000 And so he wants God to lift his protection from America.

01:21:20.000 And we have to fight because we don't want people's lives to be destroyed. 0.88

01:21:24.000 We don't want to go through another Holocaust. 0.80

01:21:26.000 Hitler, 1939, when people say it doesn't matter who the president is, I'm like, obviously, you weren't around in 1939, Germany, when the National Socialistic Democrat Republic sounds very similar, party was elected to power. 0.89

01:21:42.000 But what happened in Germany should never happen again. 0.57

01:21:45.000 What happened in 1920s through Stalin should never happen in the world again.

01:21:49.000 What happened with Chairman Mao should never happen again.

01:21:52.000 What happened with Pol Pot should never happen again. 1.00

01:21:54.000 What happened with Idiot? 1.00

01:21:54.000 I mean, history keeps repeating. 1.00

01:21:56.000 When are we going to learn? 0.98

01:21:58.000 Christians have to get engaged.

01:22:03.000 Really well said. 0.99

01:22:04.000 Yeah.

01:22:05.000 I'm blessed by that.

01:22:07.000 When you were speaking of this idea of abortion, one of the fallback positions of the woke Christian, prominent Christian side, as opposed to preeminent for Christ, is that, oh, we only care about the babies in the womb, but when they're born, we don't care.

01:22:24.000 And somehow that justifies their position to be pro-choice, which is nauseating.

01:22:30.000 And it makes no logical sense whatsoever.

01:22:34.000 But this also brings together the disillusionment or the struggle of those who worked diligently in this last election and lost.

01:22:44.000 Yeah.

01:22:45.000 And they don't understand why.

01:22:46.000 Yeah.

01:22:48.000 And they saw a pro-life president.

01:22:49.000 Yes.

01:22:50.000 They saw all these things and they don't know why.

01:22:53.000 And yet we watch the church completely silent, imploding and silent on the subject, which is supposed to be the soul of the nation.

01:23:00.000 Yes.

01:23:00.000 And a man who never, I don't think he ever publicly professed being a Christian, nor was baptized nor had public membership to a church.

01:23:11.000 He wrote these words, second inaugural address.

01:23:15.000 He said, both read the same Bible and pray to the same God and each invokes his aid against the other.

01:23:20.000 It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of another man's face.

01:23:31.000 But let us judge, not that we be not judged.

01:23:34.000 The prayers of both could not be answered.

01:23:36.000 That of neither has been answered fully.

01:23:38.000 The Almighty has his own purposes.

01:23:41.000 Second inaugural address, Lincoln understood, unlike the pulpits in America, this was an issue over 4 million slaves.

01:23:49.000 Wow.

01:23:50.000 And that's why we lost 2% of our nation on a field of battle.

01:23:54.000 That's right.

01:23:54.000 You don't kill a million babies a year in America and thank God to turn a blind eye.

01:23:59.000 Yes.

01:23:59.000 This is way bigger than all of us.

01:24:01.000 It's time we awaken and repent.

01:24:03.000 And also, I want to just, every Christian should take a huge stand against this line of thinking.

01:24:08.000 Like, oh, you only care about them when they're born.

01:24:11.000 Well, first of all, show me one public policy measure that the Democrats support once the baby that is born that is actually better for them.

01:24:18.000 Schools.

01:24:19.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:24:20.000 Crime.

01:24:20.000 Yeah.

01:24:21.000 Education.

01:24:21.000 Family.

01:24:22.000 Yeah.

01:24:23.000 Food stamps.

01:24:24.000 Inner city poverty.

01:24:26.000 We as conservatives have.

01:24:28.000 We as conservatives actually have the most pro-human policies after they're born, too.

01:24:33.000 Yes. 0.54

01:24:34.000 This is a bunch of nonsense.

01:24:35.000 Just because we don't want to expand the welfare state doesn't mean that we don't care about that child once they're born.

01:24:39.000 Charlie, I've been a pastor of this congregation, God speak, for 20 years, 21 years this year.

01:24:44.000 Congratulations.

01:24:45.000 It's awesome.

01:24:46.000 I've survived.

01:24:46.000 That's amazing.

01:24:47.000 What's a great congregation, too?

01:24:48.000 Good people.

01:24:50.000 From day one, I have said publicly and have been on record, and the entire congregation knows this, you know, any woman who is considering an abortion is willing to keep it because we'll help with the birth and the costs and we'll find a home for it.

01:25:05.000 Yes.

01:25:05.000 We'll take care of it.

01:25:06.000 In 20 years, we haven't had one person take us up on that offer.

01:25:11.000 Not one.

01:25:11.000 That's right.

01:25:12.000 So don't give me that garbage. 0.99

01:25:14.000 And also, pregnancy crisis centers exist. 0.99

01:25:17.000 Yes.

01:25:18.000 Most people don't know about that.

01:25:19.000 Yes.

01:25:20.000 And there is an abundant array of willing churches like both yours that would support.

01:25:25.000 And we've adopted, by the way.

01:25:26.000 But also, let's just talk.

01:25:27.000 Yeah, let's just talk about the public policy side of it.

01:25:29.000 We stand for educational choice.

01:25:30.000 Sure.

01:25:31.000 We stand for more police to stop the slaughter of 70.

01:25:34.000 You know, there were 750 homicides in Chicago last year?

01:25:37.000 750.

01:25:38.000 I mean, these numbers would stun Bogota, Columbia. 1.00

01:25:43.000 That sounds like Baghdad.

01:25:44.000 750 homicides. 0.76

01:25:45.000 Yeah.

01:25:46.000 So don't give me that nonsense about we don't care about the human being.

01:25:50.000 We are the pro-human party.

01:25:51.000 We just are.

01:25:52.000 Yeah, we are.

01:25:53.000 And we shouldn't allow that.

01:25:55.000 Because we kind of like back down where we're like, oh, I don't know.

01:25:58.000 Maybe you are right.

01:25:59.000 No, no, no.

01:26:00.000 You want more social safety nets, not to help them, but to restrict them.

01:26:04.000 Yeah.

01:26:04.000 You want, hold on a second.

01:26:06.000 You're trying to tell me you care about the child after they're born.

01:26:09.000 You want to get put in transgender curriculum? 0.99

01:26:11.000 Yeah. 1.00

01:26:12.000 You want to put in graphic sex education for that nine-year-old? 0.77

01:26:16.000 You want to put in critical race theory? 0.99

01:26:18.000 You want to tell 10-year-old black kids that you can't succeed just because you're black? 0.99

01:26:21.000 Because of their immutable characteristics? 1.00

01:26:24.000 You're anti-human.

01:26:25.000 Don't give me a human. 0.94

01:26:25.000 Yes, exactly. 0.94

01:26:26.000 The conservative agenda is pro-human from inception all the way to their last breath.

01:26:31.000 Yeah. 0.76

01:26:32.000 And that's the truth that needs to be communicated.

01:26:35.000 And again, and it comes back to don't be fooled.

01:26:39.000 The reason they want to expand welfare is not because they care about the people.

01:26:44.000 Of course not.

01:26:44.000 They want to increase because they want to increase their power over people.

01:26:48.000 That's what it's all about.

01:26:49.000 The reason why they give away free stuff is because even the cheese in the rat trap is free.

01:26:55.000 Yes, exactly.

01:26:56.000 Well, free stuff comes with a price and it's your freedom.

01:27:00.000 Amen.

01:27:01.000 When a government is giving you something for free, it's at the expense of your freedom.

01:27:05.000 Well, and this is what I tell everyone who might get a stimulus check.

01:27:08.000 If you need it, spend it as you need it.

01:27:11.000 If you do not need it and you were going to spend it on Netflix or whatever, give it away.

01:27:17.000 DoorDash.

01:27:18.000 Yeah, go give it away.

01:27:19.000 Give it to a church. 1.00

01:27:20.000 Give it to the pregnancy crisis center. 0.97

01:27:22.000 Yes.

01:27:22.000 Give it away.

01:27:23.000 Do not take that money for anything else than try to multiply the good in the world.

01:27:28.000 And if you need it, totally use it.

01:27:30.000 I get it.

01:27:31.000 A lot of businesses shuttered and shattered, and I'm not trying to diminish that.

01:27:34.000 There's a lot of people that brag about on social media, people I know in my life, oh, I got $1,200.

01:27:38.000 And, you know, if they only knew how well I was actually doing, a blah, Man, that's not moral, man.

01:27:45.000 No, that's right.

01:27:46.000 And somebody, we're paying that with inflated dollars.

01:27:48.000 Oh, man.

01:27:49.000 We're paying that with deficits that we are going to owe and debts are going to owe for a long time.

01:27:53.000 And go at least use that little, you know, mine, that's not a little, $1,200, which is significant to go maybe bless somebody else.

01:28:00.000 Yes.

01:28:01.000 You know, it's interesting on my wife and I, we both have, especially over the last couple of years, become quite a bit more vocal on our social media, especially on our Instagram.

01:28:12.000 And unfortunately, it lost us pretty severely, relationships, even 20 years of family connection gone.

01:28:25.000 And I remember this one very, very vocal from Australia got on and had been discipled many years ago in our ministry in Australia.

01:28:38.000 And now, because of the church culture there had moved away from truth into wokeness, brought up that whole argument.

01:28:47.000 Well, you know, you guys, you know, you only care about, you know, you're so pro-life.

01:28:51.000 You're so narrow in your thinking.

01:28:53.000 What about what are you guys doing after the child is born?

01:28:56.000 And what was amazing was we had, through Compassion International, asked them, what is one of the, you know, one of your biggest needs right now?

01:29:05.000 And they had an entire village that needed sponsoring in Peru.

01:29:11.000 And so we said, let us have a look.

01:29:12.000 And it was massive.

01:29:13.000 It was hundreds of thousands of dollars in infrastructure and everything.

01:29:17.000 When I brought that to the church, and this is, you know, caring for people after they're born.

01:29:22.000 When I brought it to our church, hoping that we could get our church to support this one village, our church so unanimously stepped up that right now we are supporting eight entire villages in Peru And we have five orphanages.

01:29:37.000 It's a place most people never visit.

01:29:38.000 Never visit.

01:29:39.000 We have five orphanages in Mexico, and we're about to add another three to that plus a school.

01:29:46.000 So, you know, and so when we push that, but we never heard back from that person.

01:29:49.000 I'm not sure whether maybe, you know, their feed went mute or whatever.

01:29:54.000 But we hear that argument all the time.

01:29:56.000 But here's what I would say.

01:29:58.000 And I would just say that if you think, oh, hey, because we don't care for people after, we shouldn't care before, the way to care for people after is to care before.

01:30:08.000 If you don't care about people in the womb, you're not going to care after them.

01:30:11.000 Exactly right. 0.99

01:30:12.000 In New Zealand, there was a very, very powerful Māori woman.

01:30:15.000 The Māori people, the Indigenous people.

01:30:18.000 Very, very powerful minister.

01:30:20.000 I mean, powerful minister of the gospel. 0.99

01:30:24.000 And I remember she was, and the Maori people are very spiritual, but it's demonic. 1.00

01:30:30.000 So there's a lot of casting out of demons and deliverance that happens because they're into astral travel, ancestral worship, you know, idolatry, everything. 1.00

01:30:42.000 So this particular minister who discipled my brother-in-law was in a meeting where there was a woman who had, she was abusing her little children.

01:30:52.000 She had a five-year-old, a three-year-old, and then an 18-month-old.

01:30:56.000 And they had like bruises and burns on them.

01:30:59.000 And she came weeping, this woman weeping, troubled, because she was abusing her three little ones.

01:31:06.000 And this minister immediately stopped and said, you've had an abortion.

01:31:11.000 And she breaks down, starts crying.

01:31:12.000 She goes, I've had two abortions.

01:31:15.000 Yeah, it's a spirit of murder.

01:31:17.000 Because if you'll abuse on this side of the womb, you'll abuse on this side of the womb. 1.00

01:31:24.000 Praise for her. 0.99

01:31:25.000 I mean, it was a demonstration like biblical times. 1.00

01:31:29.000 This woman fell back, her eyes rolled, and she began to growl.

01:31:33.000 And like this voice, so it's a woman, this voice, like this demonic, like a male voice starts screaming out of her. 0.98

01:31:40.000 She gets delivered and set free.

01:31:43.000 I remember that family had just joined a church.

01:31:46.000 I remember being in that church maybe two and a half years later, speaking in that church, didn't even recognize her.

01:31:51.000 She comes up to me.

01:31:52.000 The kids are grown.

01:31:53.000 She looked like a completely, she looked five years younger.

01:31:56.000 But it was just a powerful illustration that if you don't care on this side of the womb, you're not going to care on that side of the womb.

01:32:04.000 So the argument of, oh, well, you only care about that, we have to care on this side.

01:32:09.000 If we don't care on this side, we won't care on that side.

01:32:13.000 I completely agree with all of it.

01:32:15.000 It's just that talking point is nauseating to me.

01:32:18.000 It's a virtue signaling thing saying that.

01:32:20.000 It's a clinging symbol and a sound, bro.

01:32:22.000 It's like we want a Leviathan state, therefore we care about you.

01:32:26.000 No, you don't. 0.81

01:32:27.000 You want the open borders so kids can be sex trafficked. 0.99

01:32:30.000 You just want to be prominent. 1.00

01:32:31.000 You don't want Christian to be preeminent. 1.00

01:32:33.000 So I think you got a dash, right, Rob? 1.00

01:32:34.000 I do.

01:32:35.000 Everybody, you can email us your questions about this wonderful conversation, freedom at charliekirk.com.

01:32:41.000 This is on the Godspeak YouTube channel.

01:32:43.000 Yeah.

01:32:43.000 And this will also be on our podcast feed.

01:32:45.000 Jürgen, any way that people can stay in touch with you?

01:32:48.000 First of all, if they're in San Diego, they should go to your church.

01:32:50.000 AwakeningChurch.com.

01:32:51.000 We have a lot of San Diego listeners.

01:32:54.000 Oh, come on.

01:32:55.000 And then I'm just on Instagram at Jürgenmeister.

01:32:58.000 But my wife is mad with me because I've just re-overtaken her on, and she's at Leanne Matesius.

01:33:05.000 And she is so beautiful, so diplomatic, and great wisdom.

01:33:10.000 So if you've got the choice of only following one of us, follow her.

01:33:13.000 We do follow both.

01:33:15.000 Yeah.

01:33:15.000 Rob?

01:33:16.000 The real McCoy?

01:33:18.000 You know what?

01:33:19.000 We're going to be doing Vintage McCoy, but we're going to launch that in a few weeks.

01:33:23.000 I love that.

01:33:24.000 About a week and a half.

01:33:25.000 Vintage McCoy, like a beautiful vintage vehicle.

01:33:28.000 Yeah, but if you go to Godspeak.com, you'll find the YouTube channel.

01:33:31.000 Everybody, thanks so much for watching.

01:33:33.000 God bless you guys.

01:33:37.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

01:33:38.000 If you listened all the way through, please consider supporting us at charliekirk.com/slash support.

01:33:43.000 Big week in store.

01:33:44.000 God bless you guys.

The Charlie Kirk Show - February 14, 2021

God's Hand at Work with Jurgen Matthesius and Rob McCoy

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