00:00:18.000He's very smart, very fair, very reasoned, and you're going to love the analysis that he gives about the corruption of science and the Chinese coronavirus.
00:00:27.000Please consider supporting our program at charliekirk.com/slash support.
00:00:33.000If you want to get involved with Turning Point USA, the nation's largest organization fighting for freedom on campuses across the country, go to tpusa.com, tpusa.com, and email us at freedom at charliekirk.com, freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:00:48.000Aaron Ginn is here, everybody, with the answers to your questions about the Chinese coronavirus.
00:01:16.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
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00:03:34.000Yeah, people, Americans understand that the original social contract that was given to us about the lockdown and COVID and coronavirus was that we would do a short-term pain to have long-term rewards of managing hospital capacity.
00:03:48.000As that crisis came really to only unfold in really two places in the country, we have now moved the goalpost again to the case dimming.
00:03:58.000And as we're sort of extrapolating that as well, we now are learning that actually, as even the New York Times was reporting, that the quote unquote false positive rate of a lot of these tests is much higher than we ever thought possible, mainly due to the number of times we're actually cycling through these RNA experiments or RNA testing.
00:04:16.000So to say that it's like spreading quickly, it's kind of hard to understand exactly, especially when you know that a high number of the tests are actually false positives or false cases because they're not really infectious.
00:04:27.000But if you actually, let's just assume that all the cases that we're finding are true asymptomatics or symptomatic cases.
00:04:35.000The overall prevalence is much lower than we thought in terms of during the March pandemic.
00:04:42.000Because you can't take, if you remember back in March, we didn't have a lot as much testing.
00:04:47.000We were focusing testing on symptomatics and people in acute care.
00:04:50.000So you have to extrapolate the number of fatalities to the total infection.
00:04:55.000And based on that, it is way higher in March and April than we are today.
00:04:58.000Today, what we are, as most pandemics go, actually, is like it goes as we see the pandemic as it appears in the highly susceptible aka high-risk population as they pass away.
00:05:09.000Because if you and I got it in December, we wouldn't have noticed it, right?
00:05:13.000We would have just been, oh, I just have a cold today, right?
00:05:15.000Or, or I just feel a little bit like weird.
00:05:18.000So now we're in this phase of the pandemic as it has passed through the high-risk susceptible population.
00:05:23.000It's now reaching these other groups of people like college kids, younger adults, and just people that were previously in lockdown mode.
00:05:31.000So in some respects, like we are still seeing cases because we have a high test sensitivity that's detecting people that are not really infectious.
00:05:41.000And the second part is that as people have left the lockdown, as you would know, as you would assume, more people are getting it, but hospital rates are much, much lower.
00:07:03.000Jean-Jacques Rousseau, human beings thought were awesome, and he thought that the state should basically allow us to be in a permanent state of infancy.
00:07:12.000I think his observation of human nature was a little bit flawed, but he thought that government should protect natural rights, that at all costs, we must have a pursuit of liberty.
00:07:22.000I think you make a great point that there is almost this self-sacrificial promise given to us by the ruling class and the experts saying, it's okay if your business shuts down because long term, you're actually going to be better because of it.
00:07:34.000The social contract actual promise in the last six months post the initial two weeks to slow the spread has changed, which is now we must inevitably, we just must wait this out perpetually because if we don't, then everything is going to be bad in perpetuity.
00:07:50.000Can you talk more about, Aaron, about how they have been changing?
00:07:54.000I call this the moving of the Overton window.
00:07:56.000I think this is also another way to kind of mention this is just they are continuously just trying to justify their own power.
00:08:03.000Can you talk about how they are using different sets of data interchangeably while they're talking about allegedly the same thing?
00:08:10.000Yeah, no, you're right that there is this moving constantly of like, what is the success metric?
00:08:18.000And Europe has actually been, yeah, Europe has actually been far more, I think, honest with their people about what's going on and like what's what sacrifices we're making, what trade-offs we're making.
00:08:29.000I mean, it's actually the Anglo countries that have been quite embarrassing in terms of how they've been treating their citizens and how public health has responded to the situation.
00:08:39.000You know, both Sweden in the sense of like being the control for the entire world, but also other Nordic countries have been far more transparent, like Norway and Denmark, with their people about like, hey, with every policy decision, there are trade-offs.
00:08:52.000And we're going to be adults about this and we're going to be honest with you about what the risks are, but we have to move on with civilization.
00:08:59.000So you see Europe is, even though they're suffering from a true second wave because the Tumbleton number cases is now basically in some countries surpassing the sort of first wave that happened in early part of this year.
00:09:11.000What happened with Arizona and Florida, we never reached that point in terms of the severity of illness with cases.
00:09:17.000It was far lower in terms of what was going in New York, New Jersey, and Massachusetts.
00:09:22.000But what we are seeing in terms of both the UK and Spain and France is that as cases have drastically increased, we're seeing a little bit increase, as you would assume, because the prevalence is just way higher now.
00:09:33.000So undoubtedly there's going to be some increased hospitalizations and fatalities, but they're being transparent with their people.
00:09:39.000I mean, like Macron has said openly several times, we're not going back to lockdown.
00:09:46.000And he's actually called out the health minister saying, if you think you need to lock down as part of my cabinet, you basically need to get better at your job.
00:09:59.000So, you know, supposedly white flag French, right?
00:10:01.000So I think that they, they, like Europe has been able to balance the trade-offs more versus I think our country, the UK and Australia, New Zealand, haven't been able to come to terms with the fact that everything has trade-offs.
00:10:16.000And public health used to understand that, a lot of public health experts.
00:10:19.000But the good thing is like, you know, where we are today is that we understand much more about how to treat this virus.
00:10:26.000We understand what not to do, basically what New York, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Michigan did, don't do those things.
00:10:33.000Do much more of the things what happened in Florida and in South Dakota, basically how to like manage severe patients, how to also continue on with civilization, how to prevent rioting, violence in the streets because people don't have jobs and they feel very frustrated and scared.
00:10:50.000And eventually we will get passes as a nation because I believe so much in Western civilization, Western ideas, and the scientific method.
00:10:58.000But we're in this sort of haze because of the two weeks of slow to spread, the massive amount of fear the media was generating, and the inability to understand that I think Americans were shocked to understand actually how many people die a week before COVID.
00:11:15.000Still, there's no context on that whatsoever.
00:11:17.000They say 200,000 people, but we, unfortunately, it's just life.
00:11:21.000A couple million people die a year in our country.
00:11:23.000Like that's unfortunately the cycle of life.
00:11:25.000So Aaron, I'm going to read you a headline here.
00:11:28.000And to be honest, I have just lost total faith in the expert class in the Western world because you and I were talking about this loudly and repeatedly back in March, April, and May.
00:11:39.000I remember the phone calls between each other.
00:11:42.000New York Times vilified early over lax virus strategy.
00:11:46.000Sweden seems to have scourge controlled.
00:11:50.000I don't know if you saw the story or not.
00:11:53.000After having weathered high death rates, when it's resisted a lockdown in the spring, Sweden now has one of Europe's lowest rates of daily new cases.
00:12:00.000Whether that is an aberration remains to be seen.
00:12:04.000Have the Swedes and the socialist Swedes, were they onto something this whole time?
00:12:09.000I would actually say no, because what they did was basically what public health people would have advised, you know, if we didn't have TDS and Trump Ferris syndrome, like if they, or if we didn't have the politicalization of science, or we didn't have the, you know, a lot of the xenophobia that would sort of been spreading around our nation or around the world.
00:12:27.000Sweden basically did what all public health people would have done, you know, three years ago, first year.
00:12:33.000I mean, Technel and Koseki say openly that what they did was actually not unique.
00:12:38.000It was actually what they always prescribe, which is what public health people generally prescribe what they're taught in school, is give people information, trust them that they will actually do the right thing, do sort of smaller mitigation stuff on the edges that doesn't interfere with society drastically because you don't want to create unknown secondary effects.
00:12:58.000And one of the very key principles that's taught in public health policy is do not blame people that get infected.
00:13:06.000Do not treat them as if they're the scourge of society as we currently do today, as if it's like their fault, as if like we somehow have chosen like as if the virus has some agency behind it and some moral authority behind it.
00:13:19.000And because what that does is a secondary side effect is like, yeah, it's like it's like people won't get treated.
00:13:24.000People won't like, you know, actually choose to self-isolate.
00:13:29.000Instead, we have this whole moral connotation where people will just hide it and like, you know, run away.
00:13:33.000So the Sweden basically chose a path that was sort of typical public health policy that we traditionally have done in the past, you know, especially for coronaviruses.
00:13:46.000But even in the sense of like what New York Times described, which is they said, I believe you said that they had high death rates.
00:13:54.000Like Belgium, like Spain, Peru, UK, like these are all places that are higher, even us, right?
00:14:02.000So to say that it has a higher death rate is not accurate because like at what time frame do you measure?
00:14:07.000At the end of this year, we'll be able to look back on the various policies and be able to judge.
00:14:13.000And I think that what you'll find is that countries that did lockdowns had an enormous number of excess deaths, not COVID necessarily, but excess deaths and the total fatality rates within the country.
00:14:24.000You cannot compare specifically COVID deaths necessarily between countries because every country does something different.
00:14:32.000Belgium has a very generous definition of what is a COVID death and a time range behind that.
00:14:38.000Even in America, we have states do different things in terms of what is a COVID death.
00:14:43.000The better way to measure it is excess deaths with a combination of looking at total COVID deaths and then be able to also balance out what other people could have died of as well.
00:14:53.000And I think what you'll see is that countries that chose lockdowns that continue to sort of torture their civilization will find a higher number of excess deaths due to the policy decisions.
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00:16:08.000So, Aaron, I want you to build out more something that you and I have talked about previously, which is the corruption of sciences.
00:16:14.000The left says that they're for science.
00:16:15.000They accuse the right of being anti-science.
00:16:18.000You and I both know that the scientific method is rooted in challenging, you know, pre-existing premises.
00:16:24.000It's about having unafraid dialogue about what is true and what is not true.
00:16:31.000The postmodern belief, and this is in critical race theory and critical theory, that the sciences, and this, you could see this on newdiscourses.com by two true liberals, not leftists, James Lindsay and Peter Bogogian.
00:16:46.000They have said this completely, that the sciences are under attack by the postmodernists because they think that science is actually just a tool and an instrument of white supremacy.
00:16:55.000Now, that might be a little bit too far to accuse every single doctor out there right now of being in that kind of vein, but I do think that that sort of existing framework definitely played a role in some of these scientists and doctors being so vocal and being so committed to dogma, not to actual science.
00:17:17.000For example, Dr. Fauci has come out and he has said that it is a catastrophic mistake that Florida is opening its restaurants.
00:17:24.000He has said that school openings are a mistake.
00:17:29.000This is from Dr. Robert Redfield, who says, quote, Dr. Scott Atlas is arming Trump with misleading data about the Chinese coronavirus.
00:17:38.000Center for Disease Control Director Dr. Robert Redfield told a colleague Friday.
00:17:43.000So he's from the Center for Disease Control.
00:17:46.000Dr. Atlas said this, quote, science is about openly challenging and discussing different ideas, and it is critically important that we start doing that.
00:17:53.000No real scientist would disagree, and any confident scientists would welcome a debate with colleagues holding different views, Scott Atlas.
00:17:59.000So what happens now, Aaron, when you have two doctors that disagree?
00:18:03.000The Biden Democrats think that one of those is a heretic, and one of those is a pope.
00:18:10.000You and I believe that, well, maybe one might be right about something, one or the other.
00:18:14.000It is the death of empiricism and almost the birth of this very dangerous descent into thousand-year-old dogma.
00:18:22.000A lot of scientists are really bad at philosophy, right?
00:18:25.000This is why the whole sort of philosophy of science, like John Lennox practice has sort of developed, because scientists, when they're focused on the sort of empirical part, can actually be quite good and can actually give us data and evidence.
00:18:37.000But you have to realize that the conclusions that are drawn from the data and evidence is not necessarily based on data and evidence because based on wisdom and experience, you know, presuppositions.
00:18:48.000And this is when Dr. Fauci says that it's a catastrophe.
00:18:56.000And the second is like you are enacting a public policy, which is not in the realm of science.
00:19:03.000Science can inform policy, but policy is a decision between humans to create social structures, philosophical arguments of what's important, ROI.
00:19:15.000ROI is a judgment call that I believe elected officials should execute, not non-elected bureaucrats.
00:19:21.000But if Dr. Fauci disagrees with the approach of Governor DeSantis, please be specific about what those things are and what is your evidence based on that.
00:19:54.000Yeah, like Dr. Below and Dr. Gupta, Dr. Hinnigan in the UK.
00:20:00.000But for some reason, in the Anglo countries, because the same problems also happen in Australia and New Zealand, that we have not accepted open debate and dialogue about this thing.
00:20:09.000For as I give you two examples, so the Danish Public Health Authority and the Norwegian Public Health Authority both actually have had public debates with their politicians saying you advocate for things that are not what we say.
00:20:23.000Basically, we give you data, it's up to you to make the call.
00:20:27.000They've actually clearly drawn a line that the Norwegian public health authority said several times publicly, we did not advise you to close schools because we had no data to support that.
00:20:36.000Denmark has said the same thing, that you, politician, took that.
00:20:40.000So in some respects, as you know, that's their call, right?
00:20:44.000It's your decision to take, you know, what data I give you of responsibility.
00:20:50.000As a scientist, I think at the end of the day, what will happen is ultimately, as you know, because you're much more involved in politics than I am, that politicians don't like taking responsibility.
00:21:10.000They have biases and pathologies just like everybody.
00:21:12.000And at the end of the day, when things come to a head, when we see the damage of the lockdowns, when we see the cancer deaths rise, when we see the suicides, we see alcohol abuse, we see kids don't return to school, when we see poverty, we see hunger, when we see war, countries imploding, bonds going bankrupt because you don't have an economy.
00:21:31.000The politicians are going to say, hey, that was my bad.
00:21:33.000They're going to be like, it was that scientist's fault, right?
00:21:35.000And they're going to be scapegoated and it's going to be very damaging to science.
00:21:39.000So we need to celebrate people as the professors and doctors that you have listed.
00:21:44.000Celebrate them because they are pushing forward the actual true scientific method of heterodox thinking.
00:21:49.000The president, you know, Dr. Ellis is the head of the Kronot Task Force now, should embrace heterodox thinking.
00:21:55.000Homogenous thinking, group think leads to dangerous ideas.
00:21:59.000Yes, that religious ideas about something, which again, if you believe that as a public policy matter, that is totally your prerogative, but you do not take the banner of science as if it is your banner to carry and only you carry as if you are the only person that holds it, right?
00:22:14.000As the CDC and I think NIH have totally biased themselves, I think, thinking that they're put in the limelight.
00:22:21.000I think there's way too much public policy that's coming out of there that they claim is based on the particular scientific method.
00:22:26.000When Ali, it's just their opinion about something.
00:22:29.000Again, which is okay, but you need to clarify that this is my view of what this data says.
00:22:35.000You're looking at this so correctly and clearly, where you have a group of people that are almost the untouchables.
00:22:41.000They are the class of the enlightened, which because they have a doctor in front of their name and they have a very specific policy prescription, not a scientific observation, not involved in empiricism at all whatsoever.
00:22:56.000But now they're in the philosophical, they're in the political realm where for some good reason, I challenge this a little bit.
00:23:05.000The American people think very highly of anyone that has a doctor in front of their name.
00:23:10.000Now, mind you, for whatever reason, dissenting doctors are suffocated and attacked.
00:23:15.000And we just went through that entire list.
00:23:17.000So it's only a certain amount, it's only certain doctors, right?
00:23:21.000It's only certain people that we're supposed to trust.
00:23:24.000And what I'm very worried about, Aaron, I think you'll agree with this, is that this in no way is good for Western society because for every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction.
00:23:34.000And that's true in physics and it's true in politics.
00:23:37.000And it's also true in culture because people are going to realize that we were hoodwinked by these power-hungry, self-righteous, foolish political doctors that were putting forth a very specific agenda for whatever reason we can conjecture.
00:23:55.000And Dr. Fauci being the chief among it.
00:23:58.000And the president was correct in the debate.
00:24:00.000I actually think it was the best part of the debate for him.
00:24:03.000And I wish he would have leaned in on this even more when he said, wait a second, look at the alcoholism, divorce, depression, and all of this.
00:24:09.000And Joe Biden just completely said, no, none of that stuff matters.
00:24:12.000It was actually the strongest part of the debate.
00:24:15.000And this idea that lockdowns are a victimless action has been so disproven.
00:24:21.000And you and I know this is true through the data.
00:25:48.000I mean, they were wrong about the models, they were wrong about death rates, they were wrong about hospitalization rates, they were wrong about treatments, they were wrong about everything.
00:25:55.000And so, and then you also have the Democrats, and I hate to overly politicize this, but they're involved in this virus revisionism.
00:26:02.000So, Aaron, I'm afraid that this is going to clash into this could be something that none of us want to go.
00:26:10.000This could be a couple hundred-year regression where we reject the principles that help build the West, which is the blend of reason and revelation.
00:26:20.000The politicization of science, which is, you know, you alluded to some other areas which science has abandoned enlightenment principles and abandoned sort of broader, you know, sort of evidence-based Western civilization values, like the thing of like, you know, being able to be empathetic and data-driven and like being open-handed about debates, open to heterodoxy ideas, uh, and being a skeptic.
00:26:42.000Like, I would identify heavily with skepticism.
00:26:45.000Um, and even though like I'm balanced out with being a religious Christian, uh, like there, there when we get to the point in society where objectivity, which is really what the question is in front of us, is that science is losing its ability to be objective because it's being so politicized.
00:27:03.000Because objectivity is fundamentally what I would say a lot of Western countries are suffering from.
00:27:09.000Uh, that you know, if you go just go through the line of debate topics in our culture, and fundamentally, kind of at its core is this a rejection that something can be absolutely true.
00:27:20.000Instead, they're rather embraced subjectivity.
00:27:23.000And so, science comes in providing evidence and data.
00:27:26.000Yeah, and then now we're trying as the sort of postmodern revolution eats away at the sort of scientific culture.
00:27:33.000That is like what happened with COVID.
00:27:35.000Like, so COVID is a novel virus, and we're going to debate how novel it truly is.
00:27:41.000But in terms of sort of the broader scope of other coronaviruses and other pandemics, I mean, this is like Hong Kong flu.
00:27:48.000This is like, you know, 1957, 1958 flu.
00:27:51.000So, aka, it's serious, but not the end of the world.
00:27:56.000So, what explains the other behaviors, right?
00:27:59.000What explains the other end of the world?
00:28:06.000And it's these other broader cultural things that, you know, your show covers and other shows, like, you know, like Tucker and Dennis Prager, like that all of this came to head at this one moment, right?
00:28:15.000So, this is why, like, when I first, when I first got, you know, into COVID in early January and started descending this, it's like, there were all these other cultural things that were going on that scientists were latching into and didn't realize their own presuppositions.
00:28:28.000They could not see clearly that, hey, that there are significant costs to lockdown.
00:28:32.000Hey, like, we have to balance this or, hey, like, what is the data?
00:28:36.000Like, in the debate last night, like Trump mentioned the other countries and data tracking, you know, in whatever, how he ever described it, you know, we can debate about the accuracy of those specific things.
00:28:48.000But his orientation was accurate, which is that we are the only nation in the world doing it this way.
00:28:54.000So the fact to say that we have, you know, 22% of the deaths or whatever, again, that's not even control.
00:29:00.000You have to control for when time that pandemic happened.
00:29:03.000There are a lot of things to control for.
00:29:04.000But we are the only ones having the sensitivity of the tests as high as it do.
00:29:10.000Like in Europe, they're about, you know, it's not a, it's actually exponential.
00:29:14.000As you increase the number of cycle times, it exponentially increases the sensitivity.
00:29:17.000But the number of cycle times they're running is almost 50% less than us.
00:29:21.000And some countries like Spain are now requiring both a scan of the chest and symptoms to be counted as like a basically COVID admission versus, you know, we, we're just like testing everyone and everything.
00:29:35.000And it's like, oh, you know, if I come in for, and I know this for sure, and I can confirm this from doctors.
00:29:51.000And so there is a majority, a silent majority.
00:29:55.000Of course, we don't have polling on this, but that is my experience is that the majority of scientists and doctors think that what is publicly discussed, who people are cited as experts, they do not agree with.
00:31:31.000And yet when it came to this period of six months, they became more religiously fundamentalist than an evangelical Christian to this stuff.
00:31:41.000Where all of a sudden it was all of the David Hume is ought problem.
00:31:56.000And I think that you need to be a skeptic in life.
00:31:59.000However, the point I'm making, though, is that these people that have made a career out of criticizing those of us of faith, you and I, and they, the Bill Mars of the world, for example, right?
00:32:09.000His whole life is trying to bring David Hume to the 21st century.
00:32:14.000He had the film Religilists or whatever it was called, right?
00:32:17.000He basically was asking the same pointed questions that Hume would ask.
00:32:21.000It was all about trying to deconstruct religious dogma, right?
00:32:26.000And yet when it came to a moment where the professional medical class started to act with religious fervor and almost like zealots, all of that skepticism disappeared, Aaron, right?
00:32:39.000It was as if they're skeptics against people of faith, but they're zealots when it comes to the medical community.
00:33:25.000But no, you're, you're, you're, I think this goes back to the sort of philosophy of science question when it comes to COVID in our culture is that if you if you understand more philosophical frameworks about how people think and behave, you would, you would, you would realize that humans are fundamentally hierarchical.
00:33:44.000They have an orientation that something they constantly defer to to make judgments against.
00:33:49.000And for Christians, it's, it's the Bible and Jesus, but for atheists, it's something else.
00:33:54.000You can't escape that behavior which humans have.
00:33:58.000Every single human has, whether it could be, it could be, if you're, if you're, even if you're Christian, it could be family, it could be country, it could be, you know, science, it could be, you know, politics, it could be environment, like all of the, all of the, like humans naturally create a godlike order and in whatever thing they think is like most important.
00:34:18.000So when it came to COVID, that became a very sort of zealous appeal, constant appeals if like that was the only thing that mattered.
00:34:28.000And the unfortunate thing is that the secondary consequences of that zealotry has led to basically we've lost all of our gains in extreme poverty.
00:34:38.000Like we're basically back to the early 90s now.
00:34:41.000Like we're going to have million, probably a million more TB, malaria, AIDS deaths in Africa.
00:34:47.000Like there's not really any way to measure this pandemic, COVID specifically, in a way that's like actually appreciable in terms of we actually creatively save lives.
00:34:56.000The lockdown deaths will, in terms of all the actuarial analysis, in terms of how like people now they're looking at things we actually know and measure very well, like malaria, for example, how many times we retreat that or how many times we get TB vaccines.
00:35:09.000Those things we actually know and have very good data on outcomes, hard data, not like COVID, which is a complete mess and chaotic in terms of how we measure that.
00:35:17.000We know fairly certain what's going to happen because so many people have not come to doctor to receive vaccines or so many kids are not in school or not being fed, for example, in Africa or lowering income communities in America.
00:35:29.000So The zealotry of willing to ignore that is quite profound, which is why the scientists you see like lockdown skeptics is remarkably a bipartisan issue.
00:35:41.000It's made up of lots of liberals who see the zealotry, who see the sort of insanity, centrists, libertarians, skeptics who have no place, independents, because they can look at the data and be like, wait a minute, this is not the way we should approach this issue because it is serious, but it's serious for a very known select group of people that you can look and see and you can tell that they're actually high risk.
00:36:07.000The age-stratified risk between you, you and me, and an elder person nursing home is a thousand times different.
00:36:17.000Like you and I are more likely to have a severe outcome of COVID about as much as if we have an accidental fall and die.
00:36:24.000Like it's basically about this similar amount of risk versus someone that is in a nursing home.
00:36:29.000Again, you could say sheltered in place already.
00:36:32.000Someone who's in a nursing home is a much more controlled environment that you can implement anything.
00:36:37.000So like DeSantis, going back to Fauci's criticism and Dr. Berks' criticism, I don't even think they understand what DeSantis is even doing.
00:36:44.000Like because they say things as if it's like they don't even read his actual policy.
00:36:47.000But if you read everything he's doing in nursing homes, do you read how he's actually trying to protect the vulnerable, implementing widespread testing, having COVID recovery wards, which again, actually Berks and Fauci, as far as I know, never actually recommended, but actually saved a lot of lives because if you're recovering from COVID, you could potentially still have infectious viral loads.
00:37:09.000So putting you elsewhere from a highly susceptible population is way more wise.
00:37:19.000So I give you another example about how some people are seeing the light.
00:37:23.000So, you know, Bill Gates was very much on the pro lockdown, direct as severe as possible.
00:37:30.000Since his Millennium Report, which measures poverty and other pathologies, was so depressing, he has changed his tune because he now sees the data and he goes, wow, this policy was a disaster.
00:37:42.000He has not said that publicly, but if you read, watch his interviews, it's very clear that he has changed his mind.
00:37:48.000Yeah, it's very clear he has changed his mind.
00:37:51.000He's more committed to dogma as a scientist because he doesn't want to go back on his friends.
00:37:56.000But if Bill Gates came out and said, wow, this was an awful mistake, he would change public opinion by 20 points overnight.
00:38:02.000But he actually hates Donald Trump so much because he's a religious zealot.
00:38:06.000His religion is different than you're and I. His religious is defeated, his religion is defeating Trump and conservatives.
00:38:12.000Because that's because Gates, despite seeing the data, he will not speak out.
00:38:17.000Yes, the ironic thing is like, you know, so much of our culture is like this weird kabuki theater that like everyone knows the elephant in the room, but no one wants to talk about it.
00:38:25.000And so, you know, my personality is to poke at it and see what happens.
00:38:29.000So, so like not believing that like lockdowns were basically kind of a BS policy and didn't work and like had a lot of these extra costs.
00:38:39.000I think widespread people actually believe that.
00:38:52.000Here's what we're going to do to fix the situation.
00:38:54.000I think the poor rating of that person would skyrocket because Americans are very forgiving as people.
00:39:00.000What they don't like is being lied to.
00:39:02.000They don't like being told that something is true and not true.
00:39:06.000And that's the thing is like, I'm just waiting for somebody to say, I think closest person is DeSantis.
00:39:10.000I think eventually DeSantis is going to say, okay, yeah, that was a big mistake.
00:39:13.000Like the media and everything was pushing it.
00:39:18.000He already said we're never going to do it again.
00:39:19.000But by that admission, you're also subtly saying that the lockdown was not a good idea.
00:39:25.000But I'm just waiting for a Public official to finally say it so that we can just sort of move past this like weird acceptance of something like an alternate reality.
00:40:33.000Yeah, with reasonable mitigation, high-risk populations, but we also should not tell people things that are not true that supposedly mitigates the risk, like masks.
00:40:56.000We have good physics evidence, but that's not the same thing as the practical application of a mask in public spaces among people who are untrained to use it.
00:41:08.000So we need to be honest and fair with people and treat them like adults.
00:41:15.000Like, you know, these magical beans will work, right?
00:41:18.000Like that's not that pseudoscience, it's witchcraft.
00:41:21.000Like shake my broom and the virus disappears.
00:41:24.000So we have to be realistic with people and tell them things that actually work, like washing your hands, distancing.
00:41:31.000If you wear a mask in a crowded space, what?
00:41:33.000I mean, I would say the evidence shows that that may do something, but it's not the same thing as other public health people saying good as a vaccine.
00:41:40.000That is profoundly irresponsible because that is not true.
00:41:45.000I mean, vaccine science is way more, has significantly more evidence behind it.
00:41:52.000And it goes through rigorous testing than like what masks have been done.
00:41:57.000And this is why the Nordic countries, other European countries have been much more balanced about masks because they look at the data like it's just not there.
00:42:04.000So not also recognizing the fact that the second year consultants is that.
00:42:08.000But in terms of schools, in terms of businesses, in terms of like free society, absolutely.
00:42:14.000Human rights don't stop because there's a new novel, coronavirus, that actually has a fairly low mortality rate compared to the Spanish flu or something like that.
00:42:30.000It is something that is universal and good.
00:42:33.000So we as a society have to accept that there are going to be different downsides as with all various decisions that we make in public policy.
00:42:41.000And the downsides of continuing the pattern of locking people in and out, scaring them to death, will fundamentally lead to much more significant pathologies than anything that COVID will bring to our nation.
00:42:59.000Well, Aaron, thank you so much for joining our program.
00:43:11.000What a great conversation that was at Aaron Ginn.
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