The Charlie Kirk Show - How MAHA is Unshackling American Science ft. Dr. Jay Bhattacharya

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, Charlie Kirk here live from the Bitcoin.com studio.

00:00:04.000 Alex Marlow joins the show.

00:00:05.000 What are the politics around amnesty and mass migration?

00:00:09.000 What was happening in LA with Karen Bass?

00:00:11.000 And then we have an exclusive breaking news update from the director of NIH.

00:00:15.000 That's Dr. Jay Bhattacharya.

00:00:18.000 I think you'll really enjoy it.

00:00:19.000 Make sure you guys get involved with Turning PointUSA at tpusa.com.

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00:00:27.000 Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.

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00:01:33.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

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00:02:32.000 We got some exclusive breaking news today, and it is from a great man, director of NIH, Jay Bhattacharya.

00:02:40.000 Director, great to see you.

00:02:41.000 Thank you for taking the time.

00:02:43.000 I know you have an announcement to share with the audience here.

00:02:46.000 Please, the floor is yours.

00:02:48.000 It's very important.

00:02:48.000 It's not going to make the front page of the New York Times, but it shows how the administration is focused on real results that benefit the taxpayer and science.

00:02:58.000 Please, Director Bhattacharya.

00:02:59.000 Charlie, thank you for having me on the show and for giving me the floor to make this announcement.

00:03:03.000 So one of the things that's sort of a little known secret about scientific publishing is that when taxpayers pay for research, and they do through the National Institute of Health, lots of great discoveries are made.

00:03:15.000 You publish it in a scientific journal.

00:03:17.000 And everyone has these ideas about scientific journals as if they're as ways like clean places where people can convey scientific ideas to other scientists.

00:03:26.000 They're peer-reviewed.

00:03:27.000 They vet truth.

00:03:29.000 And some of that is true.

00:03:30.000 But a lot of times the economics of the publishing of the scientific publishing workforce, the publishing industry is actually not so clean.

00:03:42.000 And in particular, what happens, we just made an announcement a couple of weeks ago, essentially saying that when an NIH-funded scientist publishes a paper in a scientific journal, that paper needs to be available to the entire public for free without any paywall.

00:04:00.000 That happened a couple of weeks ago.

00:04:02.000 We put that in place.

00:04:04.000 Actually, I think it was July 1st, we put that in place.

00:04:07.000 A lot of the industry, some of the industry responded essentially by telling the scientists that they were going to charge the scientists for the privilege of publishing science in their journals.

00:04:20.000 Think about that.

00:04:21.000 I'm an author.

00:04:22.000 I'm a scientist author, and I publish some great advance funded by taxpayers.

00:04:27.000 I go to a scientific journal.

00:04:28.000 The scientific journal then charges me up to sometimes $13,000.

00:04:32.000 Springer Nature is a particular bad actor on this.

00:04:36.000 $13,000.

00:04:37.000 Well, what happens then is the taxpayers are then charged for that $13,000 fee for the privilege of publishing in the scientific journals.

00:04:45.000 It costs them nothing, Charlie, to put it on the web.

00:04:47.000 I mean, it's a very, very cheap thing.

00:04:49.000 They don't even pay peer reviewers.

00:04:51.000 So what we're doing is we announced a policy that in fiscal year 26, that we're going to limit the amount of money that the NIH is willing to pay to scientific journals for having the scientific publications paid for by taxpayers available for free to taxpayers.

00:05:10.000 Taxpayers have already paid for it.

00:05:11.000 There's no good reason for scientific journals to charge twice.

00:05:15.000 And that's a big deal.

00:05:17.000 A lot of the sort of predatory practices in scientific journals that take advantage of researchers, we're finally addressing that.

00:05:24.000 And we're sort of making the sort of like publication process more in line with the interest of taxpayers and with the scientific community.

00:05:33.000 It's going to be weirdly controversial in the scientific community, in sort of the narrow world of science.

00:05:39.000 But I think for American taxpayers, it is a big deal.

00:05:42.000 It's a big step because it says we are taking seriously the dollars that you entrust us with, making sure we spend it on science, not on exorbitant publication fees that don't produce any good for anybody.

00:05:54.000 Well, yeah.

00:05:54.000 And so, for example, I know that you guys have had your eyes on many of these publisher companies, one of which is a company, Springer Nature, which is a foreign company.

00:06:02.000 And correct me if I'm wrong, but they charge as much as $13,000 per article for immediate open access while also collecting substantial subscription fees from the government agency.

00:06:14.000 But then they also receive more than $2 million annually in subscription fees from the NIH, in addition to the tens of millions more through exclusive article processing charges or APCs.

00:06:27.000 So correct me if I'm wrong, but that's double dipping by companies like Springer Nature?

00:06:32.000 It entirely.

00:06:34.000 It certainly feels like it, Charlie.

00:06:36.000 And you've described it exactly right, right?

00:06:38.000 So, what happens is in order, okay, so NIH employs a lot of excellent scientists, right?

00:06:45.000 So, scientists need to have access to the journals so they can read the journals and see what fellow scientists are doing and have discovered.

00:06:51.000 So, the NIH pays Springer Nature, Elsevier, another big player in this industry.

00:06:57.000 The industry is a duopoly.

00:06:58.000 I mean, they basically, the reason why it's such a mess is because it is a duopoly.

00:07:03.000 It's not a competitive industry.

00:07:04.000 And then a few other smaller publishers, including like university presses, a contract that says, okay, we would like to have access for our scientists to the stuff that's in your journals.

00:07:16.000 That makes sense.

00:07:17.000 Library fees have been around for a long time.

00:07:19.000 And that makes sense to do that.

00:07:21.000 You want to have access to these journals for the scientists that are doing their work because that's how they do their work is by sharing information.

00:07:27.000 Absolutely.

00:07:28.000 What doesn't make sense, Charlie, is charging scientists for publishing in the journal exorbitant amounts of money just for the right for the public to see the papers without a paywall.

00:07:39.000 That's double dipping, in my view.

00:07:41.000 And I agree with your characterization of you.

00:07:43.000 You absolutely nailed it.

00:07:44.000 And the amount of money on that is way, way more than the library fees.

00:07:49.000 Really, the big way that these journals take advantage of their duopoly power, duopoly, because there's really two big players in this industry.

00:07:58.000 There's Springer Nature, just as you said, and then another company called Elsevier.

00:08:04.000 Those two companies basically set the terms for a lot of the scientific journals, and they sort of monopolize.

00:08:10.000 You know, it's part like one of the reasons why it was so difficult to get the word out about what scientists were actually saying during COVID, because they had such monopoly power over scientific publishing.

00:08:20.000 It's really not a healthy situation for science to be in where you rely on a duopoly publishing industry.

00:08:28.000 I don't know much I can do about that, but I can tell you there's no reason for taxpayers to pay twice.

00:08:32.000 And taxpayers ought to have a right to see the product of the science that they fund without having to do a paywall.

00:08:39.000 And the response to that should be.

00:08:40.000 Yeah, and the paywall, so I want you not to talk about how this helps public health.

00:08:44.000 Because yes, it's great on the taxpayer side.

00:08:46.000 This will what saves tens of millions of dollars, maybe hundreds.

00:08:50.000 I don't know how much money this will spend.

00:08:51.000 So that's a win, and the president should be happy.

00:08:54.000 But let's say that we have another emerging public health concern.

00:08:57.000 And by the way, you were phenomenal on COVID, by the way, Dr. Bhattacharya.

00:09:01.000 A team, I think you were Barrington Declaration.

00:09:03.000 You challenged lockdowns.

00:09:04.000 You were phenomenal.

00:09:05.000 And I remember it, and I notice it.

00:09:07.000 So I just want to make sure you know that.

00:09:08.000 But let's say another public health concern is emerging.

00:09:12.000 How would this way of doing open source, transparent publishing help public health more than the paywall model?

00:09:23.000 Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of the problem during the pandemic was this sense that there is something called the science.

00:09:30.000 So there's a relatively small number of like clergy in science, I mean, effective clergy in science, get to decide what's true and false, right?

00:09:38.000 So you have to wear a mask or else you're going to spread COVID.

00:09:40.000 The vaccine stops you from getting spreading COVID, so vaccine mandates are a good idea.

00:09:44.000 We should close schools for years because that's the only way to stop COVID.

00:09:48.000 All that stuff was false, Charlie.

00:09:50.000 And there was a lot of literature, scientific literature published, eventually published, that showed that that was false.

00:09:58.000 If you open up the access to the journals so that the public and large can see what the scientific debates are actually happening, it makes it much more difficult for a small number of high-profile scientists to dominate the conversation.

00:10:12.000 You can point and say, well, look, everyone, I just want to interrupt, just repeat that.

00:10:17.000 We know what, we saw this during COVID when people like Berks or Fauci.

00:10:21.000 So please finish that point.

00:10:23.000 So profound.

00:10:24.000 Yeah, I mean, I think the key thing is that science is actually fundamentally democratic, right?

00:10:30.000 Even though I'm the NIH director now, I'm going to, I mean, Charlie, honestly, I'm going to have ideas that are wrong.

00:10:35.000 I absolutely will.

00:10:36.000 And what I want is for scientists to be able to correct me.

00:10:40.000 And scientists, the way we do that is we publish papers that say, you know, this idea, we don't only go after people.

00:10:45.000 We go after ideas.

00:10:46.000 This idea is not right.

00:10:47.000 Here's what the evidence says, right?

00:10:49.000 And that fundamentally is an act of freedom.

00:10:52.000 If you allow people to have access to those information, those data, immediately upon publication, you make it much harder for a small number of scientific elite to determine what's true and false.

00:11:03.000 Instead, you have the data telling you what's true and false.

00:11:06.000 You have the scientific debate telling you what's true and false.

00:11:09.000 That's why, as you started, your opening was exactly right, Charlie.

00:11:14.000 It seems like this is a secondary issue.

00:11:16.000 But to me, it's absolutely fundamental to how our democracy functions.

00:11:20.000 We have to essentially democratize access to science.

00:11:23.000 We have to make science not the domain of a small number of people, but something that's accessible to everybody.

00:11:30.000 Now, of course, people have different scientific ideas, and some people are better at science than other people, and it's fine, but that's not the question.

00:11:36.000 The question is, can you have this debate?

00:11:39.000 Can you have a discussion?

00:11:40.000 Can you see what the data actually show?

00:11:43.000 Or are you going to have a situation where a few people can dominate the scientific discussion, dominate what's available to the public?

00:11:51.000 And I think we're moving toward policies where this science becomes more of what it's always meant to be.

00:11:57.000 A science is supposed to be to promote freedom, not suppress it, as we saw during the pandemic.

00:12:02.000 That's right.

00:12:02.000 It was unfortunately and tragically, science became a tool of totalitarianism when science properly understood, which is understanding the natural world and how we interface with it, should be a tool of liberation and of flourishing and of the betterment of humanity, where science was used to actually suppress liberty and to suppress agency and to suppress freedom.

00:12:22.000 I put science in air quotes because it wasn't about trusting the science.

00:12:25.000 It was about trusting the scientists that they like.

00:12:28.000 So now if there is a heterodox journal that wants to be introduced, for example, saying lockdowns are no good, you call the duopoly.

00:12:37.000 Basically, you know, what would this, I suppose I asked this question previously.

00:12:42.000 Let me rephrase it in this way.

00:12:43.000 We know science as liberating knowledge.

00:12:45.000 It should not be a closed off racket.

00:12:48.000 What would this possibly do now to have to change these incumbent major corporate publishing actors?

00:12:55.000 Because I believe you say that you're going to have a cap on allowable publication costs.

00:13:00.000 What do you expect in response to this?

00:13:02.000 Well, I expect that these journals, the Duopolis, essentially will lose some of their market power.

00:13:09.000 A lot of the market power has to do with the fact that they essentially bully scientists into paying large fees and essentially end up bullying us.

00:13:17.000 Actually, you know, Charlie, it's interesting because the private foundations, the GATE foundations, are not allowing these kind of charges to be paid at all or limiting the charges also.

00:13:25.000 For the longest time, essentially, these journals, like Springer Nature, have said, okay, and given a better deal to private foundations than they have to American taxpayers.

00:13:35.000 So I expect that there's going to have to be some more actions taken, but ultimately endpoint will be essentially a more democratic science, democratic in the small D sense, right?

00:13:46.000 More science that's like open and free where people can have real honest scientific discussions about the data rather than having a few big actors get to dominate the field the way it has.

00:13:58.000 That's the ultimate end game.

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00:15:05.000 With us is Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, director of NIH.

00:15:08.000 And we all remember during COVID.

00:15:11.000 Doctor, who was your equivalent head of NIH during all the COVID nonsense?

00:15:16.000 It was Dr. Francis Collins.

00:15:17.000 Oh, he was.

00:15:19.000 Yeah, no good on a lot of things.

00:15:21.000 Unfortunately, because he was really good on creation and God many years prior.

00:15:25.000 So, Doctor, let me ask you, since taking the job, what has been some of the most surprising things that you have learned?

00:15:32.000 And what are the major tasks that you are endeavoring to solve as director of NIH?

00:15:37.000 Well, probably the most challenging thing has been to try to focus the NIH on the priorities of making America healthy again.

00:15:45.000 What that means to me is, you know, if you look back, Charlie, over the last, since 2012, there's been no increase in life expectancy in this country.

00:15:53.000 Yeah, that's not true of Europe.

00:15:55.000 It's a major scandal sitting in front of us, and no one ever talked about it.

00:15:59.000 We basically have had flat life expectancy, high rates of chronic disease, including diabetes, including cancer, including obesity, a whole host of conditions that really have gone unaddressed.

00:16:13.000 And it's especially working class people and others who felt the brunt of it.

00:16:19.000 And the NIH's mission is to advance the health and well-being of the American people, to advance the health and longevity of the American people.

00:16:26.000 And so the most shocking thing to me was that was essentially like there are parts of, I mean, I love that mission.

00:16:31.000 That's why I love the NIH.

00:16:32.000 That's why I agreed to be a director of the NIH, because I think that mission is really important.

00:16:36.000 And I think science can do a lot to help achieve that mission.

00:16:39.000 But I think there have been parts of the mission of the NIH, of the actual mission of the NIH, which have been sort of adulterated.

00:16:45.000 Like a lot of it turned out, at least some parts of the NIH were focused on DEI objectives, essentially to try to achieve sort of social justice for something that the science isn't really well equipped to achieve.

00:16:57.000 Instead of saying, okay, what problems, health problems do minority populations have and how can we address them?

00:17:02.000 Like it turns out to be problems that everyone has, you know, high rates of obesity, untreated hypertension, diabetes, heart disease.

00:17:11.000 All of these problems need to get addressed in ways that really address the problem.

00:17:16.000 Instead, it was like, you know, a lot of the portfolio were focused on sort of DEI kinds of objectives that were remote from advancing the health of people.

00:17:28.000 And so I've worked, and this happened even before I got in, after President Trump took office, we've worked to try to focus the NIH on real health priorities that matter to people.

00:17:38.000 We want advances that improve the health of everybody, no matter what your race, color, it doesn't matter.

00:17:43.000 If you have a health problem, the NIH ought to be studying ways to help you, not trying to achieve social justice.

00:17:49.000 That's something we're not capable of.

00:17:50.000 That's something that other, you know, that's beyond me.

00:17:53.000 I just want to simply do science that advances the health of every single American.

00:17:57.000 And I think that's enough.

00:17:59.000 And also, aren't there only like 20 universities that get all the funding?

00:18:04.000 If we're serious, shouldn't there be more of a decentralization and a meritocracy around who gets NIH funding?

00:18:11.000 Yeah, something like the top 20 universities get something like 60 or 70% of all the NIH funding.

00:18:16.000 And so what you end up is essentially like scientific groupthink.

00:18:19.000 I mean, I taught at Stanford University for many, many years.

00:18:21.000 It's a great university.

00:18:22.000 Don't get me wrong.

00:18:23.000 I love the place.

00:18:24.000 But there are great scientists all across the country.

00:18:26.000 And the NIH kind of contributes to this groupthink by concentrating where the money that we give goes.

00:18:33.000 Now, of course, the way the NIH gives grants out, we solicit grant ideas, research ideas from researchers around the country.

00:18:42.000 They give us their ideas, and there's a big competition to say which ideas are best.

00:18:46.000 The problem is that the fixed cost support, the money we give to universities so they can have the lab space and all that, we tie it to having excellent scientists already at the place that can win grants.

00:18:58.000 But it's kind of a, it sets up this circular system.

00:19:01.000 In order to have excellent scientists, you have to have excellent facilities.

00:19:04.000 In order to have excellent support for those excellent facilities, you have to have excellent scientists.

00:19:08.000 It's a sort of a vicious circle, which guarantees that excellent scientists outside of the top 20 universities will have a much more difficult time of getting their excellent ideas funded.

00:19:18.000 So that's something I'm looking into how to fix.

00:19:20.000 We really do need to address that because it's bad for science to have a few concentrated places get all the funding or so much of the funding.

00:19:28.000 And you get a scientific groupthink as a result.

00:19:30.000 You saw that again during COVID.

00:19:32.000 Without a doubt.

00:19:32.000 Well, Doctor, I just want to say on behalf of our audience, thank you for your great work.

00:19:35.000 And anytime there's breaking news, you can come here.

00:19:38.000 And I can rest easy that if there's another pathogen on the horizon, that you will approach it with real science, that with real prudence, and use the scientific method to restore trust and to also uplift humanity.

00:19:52.000 Doctor, thank you so much.

00:19:53.000 We have your back.

00:19:54.000 Thank you.

00:19:55.000 Thank you, Charlie.

00:19:56.000 Thank you.

00:19:56.000 Everybody, I want to encourage you guys to get tickets to the Student Action Summit, but let me just say one other thing on Dr. Jay Bhattacharya and that whole team.

00:20:03.000 Bobby Kennedy and the Maha movement, love them or hate them, they have done what they said they were going to do. 1.00

00:20:09.000 There's a lot of coalition angst on foreign policy, sometimes in immigration.

00:20:14.000 But I'll be honest, the coalition that has been battle-tested and held together the most of all the coalitions is Maha.

00:20:23.000 It's really something to study and to behold.

00:20:26.000 Maha is holding strong and doing what they said they would do.

00:20:32.000 Look, I know there are a lot of choices when it comes to who you choose for your cell phone service.

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00:21:33.000 Joining us now is Alex Marlowe Alex is a great friend.

00:21:37.000 I think we should have him on every week.

00:21:38.000 He's phenomenal.

00:21:39.000 And I think, Alex, you're coming to SAS.

00:21:41.000 Is that correct?

00:21:42.000 I was just talking to producer Andrew Charlie.

00:21:44.000 I'm on the main stage and I'm going to be working on my speech today.

00:21:47.000 So anyone, you can email me aloha to alexmarlow.com if you want to, if you have any specific requests, greatest hit, something new.

00:21:54.000 But anyway, it is the event of the year.

00:21:55.000 I can't wait to be there.

00:21:57.000 And the list is probably the best guest list I've ever seen.

00:22:00.000 So congrats to you on that.

00:22:01.000 Well, it's an amazing lineup.

00:22:03.000 And the numbers that we're getting of people, considering that President Trump and J.D. Vance are not going to be at this one, which is fine.

00:22:08.000 I mean, they're busy.

00:22:10.000 You can't get them at all.

00:22:11.000 But the fact that we're going to have six, 7,000 people, I mean, we don't know the final number until the end because people just start pouring in.

00:22:17.000 We got Heg Seth.

00:22:18.000 We got Christy Noam.

00:22:19.000 We have Greg Gutfeld.

00:22:20.000 You know, we have Laura Ingram.

00:22:22.000 We have Megan Kelly.

00:22:23.000 It's really something.

00:22:24.000 Alex, yesterday we were kind of in the center of some news where we were reporting on verified rumors that were circling around about amnesty.

00:22:33.000 Byron Donalds confirmed those here on this program.

00:22:36.000 And secondly, I had a very high-ranking senator call yesterday afternoon and say, Charlie, your sources are very good.

00:22:41.000 How did you know this?

00:22:42.000 And so, Alex, you have actually, you're uniquely positioned to talk about this.

00:22:48.000 And I want to just do a little history lesson.

00:22:50.000 You guys at Breitbart have kind of been the vanguard of stopping prior amnesty pushes.

00:22:57.000 Most notably, you guys at Breitbart were the most responsible for stopping the amnesty push of the Gang of Eight and also the one that Nancy Pelosi was pushing while President Trump was in office.

00:23:08.000 Kind of walk our audience through how you've been through these amnesty fights before and why this is really nothing new out of Washington, D.C. Yeah, thank you.

00:23:16.000 This is something that Washington, D.C. has always wanted to do is to give amnesty for illegal aliens.

00:23:22.000 I think it would make a problem for them go away.

00:23:25.000 And so all Democrats and many establishment Republicans have wanted this thing, including some people who are some of my favorites.

00:23:33.000 I mean, Marco Rubio has been absolutely on fire, but he was one of the sponsors of the Gang of Ape Bill. 0.92

00:23:37.000 And this is definitely one that if you've not boned up on this one, definitely spend a few minutes doing this.

00:23:43.000 Breitbart's the best resource around.

00:23:44.000 If you use our search engine, you can catch up.

00:23:47.000 But overall, this is a major compromise by both political parties to try to get through amnesty for as many illegal aliens as they possibly could, basically say for violent criminals, that they would get to stay here and have a pathway to citizenship, not just that they get to stay, kind of we have a de facto amnesty now and that we don't do enough deportations.

00:24:05.000 Trump is ramping that up, but literally put them on a pathway to citizenship, which in turn creates a, through chain migration, which is one of Stephen Miller's issues that he's been on for over a decade, that this is one of the big threats that we have is that each legal alien tends to bring in more. 0.96

00:24:21.000 Both political parties, shockingly, were for this as of just about a decade ago.

00:24:26.000 And it has been a pretty rapid, I would say, pivot for the Republicans to be the anti-amnesty party.

00:24:33.000 But there are underlying sources within the party that would like to see more amnesty because, first of all, it would legitimize their decades of past desires for amnesty, which will make them feel good.

00:24:47.000 Second of all, it drives the wages down of working class Americans, which would boost their stocks a little bit.

00:24:53.000 Third of all, it's not ugly.

00:24:55.000 This is one thing that Republicans don't get is that we've been uncomfortable winning ugly.

00:25:00.000 We would rather lose gracefully.

00:25:01.000 This is part of our character and it does not work.

00:25:04.000 And Donald Trump is aware of this and he's fought against it.

00:25:07.000 But there is still this pull to, well, we can't win ugly.

00:25:10.000 If this doesn't look good, then we can't do it.

00:25:13.000 And overall, this would just be the lifeline for the Democrat Party if this ever happened.

00:25:18.000 And this is a hill to die on if there ever was one.

00:25:21.000 There can be no amnesties.

00:25:22.000 Everyone must go.

00:25:23.000 Yes.

00:25:24.000 And again, this is the red line.

00:25:26.000 And to be clear, President Trump has not called for amnesty.

00:25:29.000 He has not pushed for amnesty.

00:25:31.000 But there have been some concerns of some people, of things that have been said by, you know, at rallies.

00:25:38.000 And I think part of, again, I'll defend the president here.

00:25:40.000 He does this trial balloon rhetorical poll testing.

00:25:44.000 He's done this before.

00:25:45.000 So you have to understand kind of the spirit of Trump.

00:25:47.000 But here is today, President Donald Trump.

00:25:50.000 Actually, let's first do Brooke Rollins. 0.99

00:25:52.000 Brooke Rollins came out, and I've known Brooke for a while, and I'm glad she came out and clarified this.

00:25:57.000 Let's play CUT 296.

00:25:59.000 I think we'll probably hear a little bit more about this today, and the conversations will continue.

00:26:04.000 But I can't underscore enough.

00:26:06.000 There will be no amnesty.

00:26:07.000 The mass deportations continue, but in a strategic way, and we move the workforce towards automation and 100% American participation, which again, with 34 million people, able-bodied adults on Medicaid, we should be able to do that fairly quickly.

00:26:22.000 And then additionally, President Donald Trump, breaking news, I think we have the tape.

00:26:26.000 We could play it in a second.

00:26:27.000 He just said, quote, we are not talking amnesty.

00:26:30.000 So it's been thrown down.

00:26:32.000 However, we need to make sure the spirit of amnesty does not live, Alex, right?

00:26:36.000 Not just the word of amnesty.

00:26:38.000 Yeah, I think that's right.

00:26:39.000 And Rollins is very important here because she's in charge of the farmland in this country. 0.94

00:26:45.000 And a lot of the case that is made for amnesties is that who's going to work the farms if we do not allow for everyone to say who's an illegal alien.

00:26:54.000 So for her to come out and say, we are no longer supporting this.

00:26:59.000 We're not interested in this.

00:27:00.000 No way, full stop, is big.

00:27:02.000 She's one of the most important people in this conversation.

00:27:04.000 And of course, the most important person is Trump.

00:27:07.000 And Trump, I think, is sympathetic to the fact that some working class jobs, particularly in places like the hospitality industry in many corners of the country, particularly blue states, have relied on illegal alien labor for the past several decades.

00:27:19.000 It was one of these things that we've normalized it, but we shouldn't have, Charlie.

00:27:23.000 And this is where people like me and you come in because we're the ones to say that there is a path forward for America where we don't normalize lawlessness and we don't incentivize people from all over the world to come here thinking they can get a free pass if they just slip in through the through the back door.

00:27:37.000 That's not any way to run a country.

00:27:39.000 Donald Trump knows this in his core.

00:27:41.000 And I think ultimately he's not going to want to do any amnesties on his watch because they haven't gone well.

00:27:46.000 Reagan did one and he gets completely crushed online for it and deservedly so.

00:27:50.000 Just remind our audience, you live in California, how catastrophic was the 1986 Simpson-Mazzoli Act?

00:27:56.000 Yeah, it's changed the state for the worse and it's never come back from it.

00:27:59.000 Charlie, I talk about this quite a bit that this was what informed me to become a conservative was largely seeing how the attitude towards illegal aliens in this country was so passe.

00:28:10.000 We just allowed for everyone to be here and we just accepted the lawlessness, the filth that can come with it, the underbellies of the cities that would develop because of it.

00:28:20.000 And in the meantime, it created permanent political class of Democrats so that Republicans had an impossibility.

00:28:26.000 It was an impossibility for us to get any foothold at all, much less control the state, but we couldn't even get a foothold in the state.

00:28:32.000 And all of it was because the Democrats were the party of illegal aliens, which would jack up their numbers at an amazing rate in terms of who could vote. 0.96

00:28:39.000 And their children would vote.

00:28:40.000 They'd vote for Democrats.

00:28:41.000 It would create a bloated welfare state. 1.00

00:28:43.000 And all of the bad things that happened in the state really started with that principle.

00:28:48.000 First error, the original sin of this state was allowing amnesty and the open border.

00:28:53.000 And I'll never be convinced otherwise.

00:28:56.000 Look, and here is the kicker.

00:28:58.000 Here is what no one else wants to talk about.

00:29:00.000 This is a short-term problem.

00:29:02.000 The Democrats and the open border zealots are lying to you.

00:29:05.000 In 10 years, largely this will not be a problem because automation and robotics.

00:29:09.000 And because of that, the only other argument is to try to change the political makeup of the country.

00:29:14.000 And remember, we have consensus to Mass Deport.

00:29:20.000 In 10 years, this will not be a workforce problem.

00:29:25.000 And that is why they are so worried.

00:29:26.000 This is like Amnesty's last gasp.

00:29:29.000 This is the open border last gasp to get the economic argument done because that window is closing.

00:29:35.000 It's basically a decade, and that clock is crunching down.

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00:29:57.000 They understand what many investors don't.

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00:30:38.000 Shouldn't you be looking into doing that too?

00:30:43.000 Alex, I believe we've talked about this before, the future of America goes through its cities, including the reclamation of Los Angeles.

00:30:49.000 Walk our audience through what happened yesterday in MacArthur Park, which, of course, is known to be filled with MS-13 activity and what Mayor Karen Bass did.

00:30:58.000 Yeah, I think the first thing to talk about is the history, what's going on, what the Trump administration is doing, and the reaction out here, which is all grandstanding.

00:31:06.000 MacArthur Park, it is an immigration raid took place against criminals and trafficking.

00:31:13.000 That's what's going on there.

00:31:14.000 That's what they want to do.

00:31:15.000 And remember, the Democrats in this state, both the city and at the state level, do not want immigrations and customs enforced.

00:31:22.000 They are against ICE.

00:31:23.000 They want to defund ICE.

00:31:24.000 That's the whole attitude in the state.

00:31:27.000 And Karen Bass was supposed to attend the six-month anniversary of the Palisades fire.

00:31:32.000 There was a big event, a lot of speeches, people talking about how to clean up this city.

00:31:37.000 And instead, she was basically rallying for illegal alien criminals in this park.

00:31:41.000 But the thing about this park, this is not a particularly nice place.

00:31:44.000 The parks in LA are ruined anyway.

00:31:46.000 They're mostly for homeless people as they are, as Charlie, you point out, in these major cities, which are really kind of a window into our dystopian future.

00:31:54.000 If we let the left run the country, all these parks just become homeless dens.

00:31:59.000 There's a lot of fentanyl abuse there.

00:32:01.000 They talk about being a zombie park.

00:32:02.000 There's all these people kind of moving around like in a zombie-like state from drugs.

00:32:06.000 There's tents that pop up.

00:32:08.000 And this is a city that spends more money on homelessness than firefighting.

00:32:13.000 And you see they're terrible at both.

00:32:15.000 So basically, the illegal migrants are the top priority of the city, then the homeless, barely.

00:32:21.000 And then the residents are last in line.

00:32:23.000 Gavin Newsom, the governor of the state, is currently in South Carolina.

00:32:28.000 What do you think he's doing there, Charlie?

00:32:29.000 He's running for president.

00:32:30.000 He doesn't care about any of this stuff.

00:32:32.000 And so he's spending $40 billion to take on Trump, constantly fighting Trump, and yet we can't clean up this basic stuff.

00:32:40.000 Trump has done an amazing job in LA in the aftermath of the fires.

00:32:43.000 The EPA, the Army Corps of Engineers, the debris removal was rapid.

00:32:46.000 It took place very quickly.

00:32:48.000 It was all federal.

00:32:49.000 The state did nothing.

00:32:50.000 The local governments did nothing.

00:32:51.000 There's been no insurance reform to help families.

00:32:53.000 Local governments have done nothing to improve the permitting process to make rebuilding easy.

00:32:59.000 And in the meantime, all these officials are out there writing for illegal alien criminals.

00:33:03.000 It is a true disgrace, and it's on us as broadcasters to get this out there so the public understands this is what Democrats have wrought.

00:33:10.000 And just like a very simple breakdown of the social compact, if we can't enjoy our parks, are we really a country?

00:33:18.000 It's just like a very basic question.

00:33:21.000 It's another one, Charlie, where me growing up in blue areas, it helped me a lot because I went to UC Berkeley, which is known for People's Park.

00:33:28.000 And People's Park was where all the free speech protests, a lot of them would take place.

00:33:32.000 And there was discussion of putting up a parking lot on People's Park in Berkeley.

00:33:37.000 And they didn't.

00:33:38.000 They left it as a park.

00:33:39.000 And the park was unusable for normal people, unusable for families, unusable for college students.

00:33:44.000 And it became a homeless drug den.

00:33:47.000 And everyone was comfortable with it.

00:33:49.000 No one talked about it.

00:33:50.000 We just all sleepwalk in a trance past People's Park from the dorms on our way to campus as if that was preferable to a parking lot.

00:33:58.000 A parking lot would have been better, which is sad to say.

00:34:00.000 I love parks.

00:34:01.000 I'm an outdoor guy.

00:34:02.000 I love to touch grass.

00:34:03.000 It's one of the best pieces of advice you can give people.

00:34:06.000 But one of these things that happens in these major cities is that we let the parks just become homeless dens.

00:34:11.000 And for some reason, we've accepted it.

00:34:14.000 We all hate it, but we've accepted it and we shouldn't.

00:34:17.000 And again, another part of that, which is one of the things I speak about often, which is if you can't walk your major cities at night unattended and alone, your country is in a bad shape and things need to dramatically change.

00:34:29.000 For example, I feel perfectly fine.

00:34:32.000 I mean, again, I'm going to be visiting.

00:34:33.000 I'll see it myself.

00:34:34.000 Walking the streets of Tokyo at night.

00:34:36.000 I mean, I'm going there in September.

00:34:38.000 Everyone tells me that it's fine.

00:34:40.000 Walk the streets of Seoul, South Korea.

00:34:42.000 Walk the streets of Chicago or LA or San Francisco.

00:34:45.000 I think that the defining characteristic of President Trump's agenda will be, can we exert dominion over the cities?

00:34:52.000 We are a fake movement if we just control the rules.

00:34:56.000 If we just control the rules and we don't get to the heartbeat of the cities.

00:34:59.000 Your thoughts, Alex Marlow, one minute remaining.

00:35:02.000 Yeah, this is something I will put a marker in this.

00:35:04.000 I'm looking way down the field, but LA is supposed to be hosting the Olympics, allegedly, in a few years.

00:35:09.000 Our freeway system doesn't work.

00:35:10.000 Yeah, and the World Cup.

00:35:12.000 Our freeway system doesn't work.

00:35:13.000 We have the worst airport in America.

00:35:15.000 We have increasing crime.

00:35:16.000 We have key parts of the city of burned down.

00:35:18.000 Our downtown is entirely unusable.

00:35:20.000 It is without charm, without character, not safe at all.

00:35:25.000 People can't wait to get out of here fast enough.

00:35:27.000 And we're supposed to bring the whole world, not just to represent L.A., but to represent the United States of America.

00:35:32.000 This should be truly unacceptable.

00:35:34.000 And this should be an obsession of the Kieran Vassas and the Gavin Newsoms of the world.

00:35:38.000 As far as I can tell, they're not interested at all.

00:35:40.000 Alex Marlow, excellent work as always.

00:35:42.000 Deeply appreciate it.

00:35:43.000 Plug your book really quick and remind people you'll be at SAS.

00:35:47.000 Thank you, Charlie.

00:35:47.000 Breaking the Law coming out in a few weeks.

00:35:49.000 I can't wait to talk to you about it when it comes out.

00:35:51.000 My latest investigation in the law affair against President Trump, trying to get justice for President Trump.

00:35:56.000 We've just completely dropped this issue and we shouldn't have.

00:35:58.000 And the Alex Marlowe show on the Wherever Get Your Salem podcast.

00:36:01.000 Alex Marlowe, thanks so much.

00:36:03.000 Thanks so much for listening.

00:36:04.000 Everybody, email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:36:06.000 Thanks so much for listening and God bless.

The Charlie Kirk Show - July 09, 2025

How MAHA is Unshackling American Science ft. Dr. Jay Bhattacharya

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