The Charlie Kirk Show - How the Bible Built Western Civilization and Why It’s Worth Defending with Vishal Mangalwadi

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00:00:08.000 Hey, everybody.

00:00:08.000 On this very special episode of the Charlie Kirk Show, we have Vishal Mangalwadi, one of my favorite authors who wrote one of my favorite books.

00:00:15.000 It's such an important conversation, The Book That Made Your World.

00:00:18.000 You guys are going to learn so much here.

00:00:20.000 I had so much fun in this conversation.

00:00:21.000 In fact, it wasn't long enough.

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00:00:40.000 Vishal Mangalwadi is here, everybody.

00:00:42.000 Buckle up.

00:00:43.000 Here we go.

00:00:45.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:00:46.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

00:00:48.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

00:00:52.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

00:00:55.000 I want to thank Charlie.

00:00:56.000 He's an incredible guy.

00:00:57.000 His spirit, his love of this country.

00:00:59.000 He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.

00:01:04.000 Turning point USA.

00:01:06.000 We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.

00:01:14.000 That's why we are here.

00:01:17.000 How the Bible created the soul of Western Civilization: The Book That Made Your World by Vishal Mangalwadi.

00:01:25.000 And I am just so moved because we are connected together through someone who listens to the Charlie Kirk show.

00:01:31.000 And Vishal, welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:01:33.000 Thank you very much, Charlie.

00:01:35.000 I heard you during RNC convention for the first time, and I was very impressed.

00:01:41.000 I had no idea that we will get connected so soon.

00:01:45.000 I have to thank you so much for saying that.

00:01:47.000 And I have been working through this book.

00:01:50.000 I'm not yet finished.

00:01:51.000 I'm actually reading it slower than any other book I have read because there are parts, and you can see just how much I've underlined and how much I annotate.

00:02:00.000 There's so much wisdom in this book.

00:02:02.000 So, Vishal, you start the book in a very interesting way.

00:02:05.000 It catches your attention where you make an argument about how music is something that is more than just a melody we hear in our ears.

00:02:15.000 It's actually something that is spiritual.

00:02:18.000 And music is also a reflection of the culture that we're living through.

00:02:21.000 You talk about Kurt Cobain, and you talk about how that kind of was the beginning in a lot of ways of this modern nihilistic period we're living through.

00:02:30.000 Can you just walk through with our audience that argument that you made in the book?

00:02:35.000 I think it's one of the best that I have seen articulated on kind of the place of music in a society and its proper role.

00:02:44.000 Thank you.

00:02:44.000 Sure.

00:02:46.000 There are many Muslim nations where singing is illegitimate. 1.00

00:02:52.000 Haram. 1.00

00:02:55.000 Even on public television, you cannot see a woman singing because this is haram. 0.66

00:03:04.000 And so America, USA, became a musical civilization because of Puritanism.

00:03:16.000 There's a whole research that has been published that I referred to.

00:03:21.000 But it was the music developed in Latin West, so Western Europe, because of St. Augustine's six volumes on music,

00:03:38.000 where, of course, the Old Testament, if you read the book of Psalms and encourages us to make music to the Lord with all kinds of instruments, because the biblical assumption is that the whole creation exists for the glory of God.

00:03:54.000 You have created everything for your glory.

00:03:57.000 Therefore the wind and the water and the wood and the skin and the metals can make music.

00:04:05.000 And this as human beings as created to be priests and kings, having our dominion, but serving our father, worshiping him, we use the whole of the creation to worship God.

00:04:20.000 That's the idea of the music.

00:04:23.000 But many cultures didn't accept that even within Christianity.

00:04:28.000 So Orthodox Church, if you go to in Russia or Ukraine, you will have, there might be very gifted musicians, but they will be performing German musicians, but music will be in the evenings.

00:04:44.000 There might be a piano and an organ, beautiful pipe organ in the church, but during the worship service, there will be no music.

00:04:51.000 You come back in the evening to listen to the music.

00:04:54.000 So while that has been true in some of even the Christian circles, it is very important in many non-Christian circles that music was looked down upon.

00:05:07.000 But because of Augustinian tradition in monasteries, the monks who were worshiping the Lord, they began to develop music.

00:05:19.000 And Luther, as he was educated in Augustinian monasteries and universities, when he pioneered the Protestant Reformation, he emphasized music.

00:05:32.000 At that time, there was no science subject in the schools or colleges of the university.

00:05:39.000 So music was something where you began to learn singing and music and then reading and writing and arithmetic, etc.

00:05:49.000 So music was very important part of Christian education because education was not something which prepared you for a job.

00:06:01.000 It was not a utilitarian thing, but it was something chief end of men is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.

00:06:11.000 And you glorify him through singing and praise and worship, among other things.

00:06:17.000 So that's how music developed.

00:06:20.000 So it was very important for Luther.

00:06:23.000 Because he believed that all human beings are supposed to be priests if they believe in God, priesthood of all believers, it meant everybody has to sing because 500 years ago, if you went to church, congregation didn't sing.

00:06:38.000 Those young boys who were going to be becoming monks, who were studying in the monastery, they would be professional choirs who are trained to sing.

00:06:50.000 But then Luther said, no, everyone is a priest.

00:06:53.000 Everyone must sing.

00:06:55.000 Therefore, singing must be in German or English or Hindi.

00:07:00.000 It shouldn't be in Latin, which is the language of the church.

00:07:06.000 So he began to compose German songs and bring the best music.

00:07:12.000 And out of that Lutheran Revolution, 100 years later, came Bach, which is the flowering of that Augustinian tradition.

00:07:22.000 And then, of course, you had great musicians in Europe.

00:07:26.000 And that tradition came into the USA.

00:07:31.000 So until the 1940s, 50s.

00:07:34.000 So even if you listen to people like Elvis Presley, etc., they're first singing gospel songs.

00:07:41.000 And then as technology develops and music develops, it gets into clubs and all sorts of places.

00:07:53.000 And then, of course, the mass production of gramophone and audio cassettes and DVDs, et cetera, and now digital transformation.

00:08:02.000 Music has become a mass movement, which is, of course, what exactly what God wants, the whole creation worshiping him.

00:08:11.000 But every good thing gets corrupted.

00:08:13.000 So Paul says that, that do not be drunk with wine, which leads to debauchery.

00:08:22.000 And so much of music has led to debauchery and corruption of morals and behavior.

00:08:31.000 But we ought to be using it to develop the finer culture.

00:08:38.000 So music was part of the fine culture.

00:08:41.000 And in fact, the comparison with Cobain is tragic because the first five books of Augustine on music, they are technical.

00:08:53.000 Any follower of Pythagoras or others could have written those technical treaties on music.

00:09:00.000 His sixth book is Biblical Philosophy of Music, where he relates music to the goal of human life to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

00:09:12.000 It gives meaning to life.

00:09:14.000 But because Kurt Kobain became a Buddhist and rejected the existence of God and then had to reject existence of self itself, so Buddhism is nihilism, death to self.

00:09:30.000 There is no meaning, no purpose to life. 0.54

00:09:33.000 And this singing, so the music becomes scream, anguish, emptiness, silence, death.

00:09:44.000 And Kurt Kobane, in his lyrics, he is shouting about these things of emptiness and meaninglessness and absurdity.

00:09:55.000 And that is, of course, hurting so much, so many young people who find that it is, music becomes a source of emptying your mind, like Hare Krishna, Hare Ram, where you're keeping on chanting some mantras endlessly until your mind goes blank.

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00:11:20.000 You say in the book so well here, in this sense, Cobain stands as the direct opposite of the life, thoughts, and work of Bach.

00:11:29.000 Whereas Bach's music celebrated life's meaning as the soul's eternal rest and the creator's love, Cobain became the symbol of loss of a center of meaning in the contemporary West.

00:11:39.000 I think that is just so well put.

00:11:42.000 In a following chapter, and you start with this idea of music, and I think it really captures the reader's attention because you're really not sure where you're going with it, and then you land it beautifully into this idea of the West.

00:11:54.000 And this is something I mentioned in my RNC speech that the president is the bodyguard of Western civilization.

00:12:00.000 And a lot of people don't quite understand what Western civilization is.

00:12:04.000 I'm so moved by this book and by your writings and by your speeches, because similar to Ravi Zacharias, you have an Eastern perspective on the West.

00:12:13.000 It's almost you're looking outward into the West and you're able to inform those of us that grew around this idea of private property and free enterprise and freedom of speech and assembly, how good we actually have it.

00:12:27.000 You have an incredible story here, Vishal, where you were early in your life trying to bring charitable help.

00:12:33.000 And I'm paraphrasing the story here.

00:12:35.000 And there was a family with a young daughter who was dying of malnutrition.

00:12:40.000 And you offered them help.

00:12:42.000 You offered to bring her to the hospital.

00:12:45.000 And eventually, through almost force of threat, you got her the help she needed.

00:12:49.000 But then the family didn't want that.

00:12:51.000 And eventually, I believe she passed away.

00:12:53.000 Can you recount this story?

00:12:55.000 Again, I'm just paraphrasing it, but you contrast that in the West, we have no comprehension of just looking at children as disposable objects.

00:13:03.000 Can you walk us through that?

00:13:05.000 Sure.

00:13:06.000 This little girl was 18 months old.

00:13:09.000 Her name was Sheila.

00:13:10.000 I was writing my first major book at that time, which is still a textbook, a study of Hindu gurus.

00:13:18.000 And my wife was typing.

00:13:20.000 I would handwrite.

00:13:21.000 We didn't have any laptops or anything.

00:13:24.000 I would handwrite.

00:13:25.000 And then we had a typewriter. 0.99

00:13:26.000 So my wife would edit and type.

00:13:29.000 And when there was not enough work for her, she would pick up the bicycle, go into the village.

00:13:34.000 And she began to visit every family.

00:13:38.000 We had come from the city. 0.79

00:13:40.000 And village in India means poverty.

00:13:42.000 So we were trying to understand what is the condition of every family.

00:13:49.000 And she was keeping record.

00:13:51.000 And what can we do to make a difference?

00:13:53.000 Because we had gone there to serve the poor.

00:13:56.000 And she asked one girl, about 11, 12, 13-year-old, 12-year-old, maybe Lalta, how many brothers and sisters you have?

00:14:05.000 And the girl said three, maybe four.

00:14:07.000 So Ruth got intrigued.

00:14:09.000 Do you have three or do you have four?

00:14:11.000 She said, well, three, the fourth is almost dead.

00:14:13.000 So Ruth said, can I come and see the fourth baby?

00:14:16.000 So she had to be taken. 1.00

00:14:19.000 These are mud houses. 0.99

00:14:21.000 So you can't have high doors.

00:14:24.000 You have very low roof because the monsoon rain washes away the mud.

00:14:30.000 So you got in.

00:14:31.000 There was only one room, one cot in the center of the cot, no sheets.

00:14:37.000 This girl was lying 18 months old. 1.00

00:14:39.000 Her thighs were as thick as my thumb. 1.00

00:14:42.000 And she couldn't speak. 1.00

00:14:43.000 Her whole head was covered with flies because pus was oozing out of everywhere.

00:14:49.000 So my wife started crying and the mother started smirking when she saw how moved my wife was with the site. 0.87

00:14:58.000 So what's wrong with her?

00:15:00.000 Oh, she doesn't eat anything. 0.97

00:15:02.000 Whatever we give her, she vomits. 0.53

00:15:03.000 Have you taken her to the doctor?

00:15:05.000 How can we go to the doctor?

00:15:07.000 It's so expensive.

00:15:10.000 Really, the government hospital is free.

00:15:13.000 But no, no, no, the mother said, I can't go to the city.

00:15:17.000 Well, ask your husband to go.

00:15:20.000 How can he go?

00:15:21.000 Who will look after the farm, etc.

00:15:23.000 She started making excuses, who will look after the animal.

00:15:26.000 So my wife was really moved by their poverty.

00:15:28.000 And she said, look, I will pay for a laborer so your husband can have a laborer look after the farm for one day and go to look after the baby.

00:15:39.000 Well, she said, when he comes, I will talk to my husband.

00:15:42.000 So my wife cycled back, told me to go and speak to the husband.

00:15:47.000 So as I started speaking to him, they had already made up their mind, they're not going.

00:15:54.000 Why not?

00:15:55.000 We don't have the money.

00:15:56.000 But my wife told you she'll give the money.

00:15:58.000 Oh, we don't want to get into debt.

00:16:00.000 But this is not a debt.

00:16:01.000 This is a gift.

00:16:03.000 No, but we don't have the time.

00:16:05.000 Well, she said, told you that she'll pay for a laborer who can look after the farm for Monday.

00:16:11.000 Then he got angry at me.

00:16:13.000 Why are you bothered?

00:16:14.000 This is our daughter.

00:16:16.000 And I didn't know how to answer that.

00:16:19.000 So I decided to use that as a stick against him, pretend to be angry. 0.98

00:16:25.000 Are you killing this child? 1.00

00:16:28.000 If you're killing this child, why don't you pick up a knife and stab the baby? 1.00

00:16:34.000 Why do you have to give this long starving her to death without treatment? 0.99

00:16:41.000 So I told the father, look, if you don't send this girl with my wife to the hospital tomorrow, I'll bring the police and say that you are deliberately killing this baby. 0.96

00:16:54.000 So there was an elderly man who advised the couple that, look, this guy is crazy.

00:16:59.000 He might actually bring the police.

00:17:01.000 And if the police took the daughter, you will have to pay for the treatment.

00:17:04.000 Right now, he's offering to pay, so you go.

00:17:08.000 That's how the daughter went.

00:17:10.000 Three weeks she was in the hospital.

00:17:13.000 As she began to recover, she was still being fed through her nose.

00:17:18.000 The doctor said that the bill is piling up.

00:17:20.000 You take the baby to your home.

00:17:22.000 I will come there twice a week and look after, give the prescription.

00:17:27.000 But what we are doing in the hospital, you can do at home.

00:17:30.000 So we did that.

00:17:31.000 She recovered beautifully.

00:17:33.000 The greatest joy was when she would smile at us.

00:17:37.000 But then mother came and started fighting with my wife that the village, my caste, our caste will excommunicate us because you are feeding, our daughter is feeding your, eating your food.

00:17:53.000 You are Christians, we are not.

00:17:56.000 So my wife said, of course, we want you to take your daughter and look after her and I'll pay you for the milk. 0.95

00:18:03.000 So my wife started giving money, but in few weeks, the girl was back to square one. 0.81

00:18:09.000 The whole process had to be repeated. 0.90

00:18:11.000 Ruth had to argue.

00:18:12.000 I had to go and fight.

00:18:13.000 Ruth had to take the daughter to the hospital.

00:18:16.000 She had to be put on intravenous.

00:18:18.000 She recovered, came back to her house, and then she recovered again.

00:18:23.000 And the mother came back to fight.

00:18:26.000 And Ruth said, well, please, yes, take your daughter home. 0.57

00:18:30.000 We'll give you clothes blanket. 0.76

00:18:32.000 But this time I'm not going to give you money for milk.

00:18:35.000 I'll give to the milkman.

00:18:38.000 But in three days, the kid was dead.

00:18:41.000 I believe that the parents wanted to kill her.

00:18:44.000 My wife didn't believe any parents could kill their child.

00:18:50.000 So it took three more deaths before my wife came to believe that, yes, infanticide was very common.

00:18:57.000 If you had argued, they would have said that, look, we didn't have any facilities for ultrasound.

00:19:06.000 If they had known this is a girl, we would have aborted her.

00:19:11.000 We have done nothing, which lots of Americans don't do, kill their own babies. 0.81

00:19:18.000 We had no facilities for ultrasound facilities for abortion here.

00:19:23.000 So most families kill their newborn daughters the moment they are born, within hours. 0.97

00:19:30.000 And it doesn't take too much to kill your daughter.

00:19:33.000 You just put her in the sun when the sun is too hot, or you put her out in the winter cold when it's very cold and don't cover her, the baby will be dead. 0.94

00:19:42.000 Don't feed anything, the baby will be dead.

00:19:45.000 So this was part of the culture.

00:19:49.000 We had come from the city.

00:19:51.000 We didn't know how common infanticide was.

00:19:55.000 But we were two different cultures.

00:20:01.000 We believe that every child is made in God's image.

00:20:04.000 Every life is precious and valuable.

00:20:08.000 Hinduism had taught them that death is nothing.

00:20:11.000 It is a soul passing from, like we change clothes, soul changing bodies. 0.96

00:20:17.000 So don't take death seriously.

00:20:19.000 This was the teaching of Mahabharata.

00:20:21.000 And of course, Buddhism had said that there is no soul.

00:20:26.000 So we took life seriously.

00:20:30.000 They didn't take, we took daughters seriously.

00:20:34.000 From their point of view, a girl had no future.

00:20:37.000 She would suffer for 10, 12 years.

00:20:40.000 We have to look after her. 0.94

00:20:41.000 Then we marry her and we have to give dowry. 1.00

00:20:44.000 And then her in-laws persecute, torture her to extract more dowry from the parents.

00:20:50.000 And then she comes home for delivery to her mother's home.

00:20:54.000 We have to bear all the expenses. 1.00

00:20:56.000 So a girl is a liability. 1.00

00:20:58.000 For us, a girl could change their family, bring the whole family out of poverty. 1.00

00:21:05.000 She can change the village. 0.98

00:21:07.000 She can change the state. 0.92

00:21:08.000 She could become the prime minister of India.

00:21:11.000 So is a girl a human being made in God's image who deserves our investment, love, service? 0.97

00:21:20.000 But right now, if you do not see human beings as precious made in God's image, endowed with inalienable right to life, the time is already here where children will say that old parents who are useless, who don't work, who don't contribute anything to society, they should be killed.

00:21:46.000 So euthanasia should be legal.

00:21:49.000 Why should we have to pay a lot of Medicare, Medi-claim, and invest a lot of time listening to old parents who don't do any good, but just ask a lot of questions and give us a lot of orders? 0.51

00:22:03.000 So are those parents who are old and unproductive, should they be loved and served and ministered to, or should they be killed? 0.76

00:22:13.000 If a baby is inconvenient and can be killed, why not old people who are useless, unproductive in terms of utilitarianism or pragmatism? 0.98

00:22:27.000 They don't contribute anything. 1.00

00:22:29.000 They're just a burden on society, on medical system, on the taxpayer, on the immediate family. 1.00

00:22:35.000 They should be killed. 1.00

00:22:36.000 So this is the culture of death, which you call pro-choice. 1.00

00:22:42.000 You choose to kill your children. 1.00

00:22:44.000 Why shouldn't children choose to kill you? 1.00

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00:23:44.000 Now, Vishal, you contrast this culture of death where you grew up in India with what the West was built on. 0.57

00:23:52.000 Now, mind you, there's a million abortions a year in our country.

00:23:56.000 So we're far from being able to say that we're perfect in this regard.

00:24:01.000 But the West has made significant civilizational progress.

00:24:07.000 I hesitate to say that word progress because I think it's way overused and misused in the capacity of recognizing human rights.

00:24:14.000 You talk in this book that the Bible was able to inspire the world that almost everyone listened to this podcast will be in the West, mostly in America, and how improbable it is of what we're living through.

00:24:28.000 You have another really interesting part in the book that, again, I just stop and I have to close the book and think about it because there's such incredibly deep ideas where you say you took exception with an old proverb that necessity is the engine of innovation, meaning that if you need something, you're going to find a way to innovate it.

00:24:49.000 I'm paraphrasing, invention or innovation.

00:24:52.000 And you said, no, look at the Taj Mahal and then look at the poverty around the Taj Mahal.

00:24:58.000 Just because you're able to create something doesn't mean you'll be able to actually be able to use the technology to improve your civilization.

00:25:07.000 Vishal, why is it that the West has been able to do all these sorts of things?

00:25:12.000 What is it about the Bible that has been able to create this civilization?

00:25:16.000 See, the Christian monks, Roman Catholic Orthodox monks, and the Buddhist monk had a same problem, identical problem. 0.82

00:25:29.000 They didn't have wives.

00:25:31.000 Who will haul their water from the river to their home? 0.94

00:25:37.000 Who will sit and grind the wheat and make bread?

00:25:43.000 Buddha solved the problem very easily that monks should not earn, work, or save. 1.00

00:25:52.000 They should go and beg. 0.97

00:25:55.000 But the New Testament says that whoever doesn't work shouldn't eat. 0.95

00:25:59.000 And that created a problem for Christian monasteries, young people who have gone to monastery to pray, to study, study scripture, study philosophy, etc.

00:26:10.000 Now there are 200 young men and they eat a lot and you have to grind a lot of grain and make a lot of bread. 0.97

00:26:17.000 Who is to do that? 0.99

00:26:18.000 There are no wives. 1.00

00:26:20.000 There are no slaves and servants.

00:26:22.000 So these young boys have to do that, but they're cultivating their mind.

00:26:28.000 So most of these monasteries in Europe were built near rivers.

00:26:31.000 They would dam the river, just a little river, let the water fall, run a turbine, which pumps the water up into storage, and then you pipe that water.

00:26:43.000 Earlier, when nobody was manufacturing pipe, they would take logs.

00:26:48.000 One end is thick, another is thin.

00:26:50.000 They drill a hole through it and put one log into the other.

00:26:54.000 And you have 24-hour running water.

00:26:57.000 Water is bringing itself to your village, to your monastery.

00:27:01.000 But because there is more water than you can consume, you let some of it go into the village. 0.74

00:27:06.000 Then every woman doesn't have to go morning and evening to haul water on her head. 0.99

00:27:11.000 So the cultures that were able to build pyramids and tal pyramids and tajmahals, they never built wheelbarrows because it was a woman's job to bring water. 1.00

00:27:23.000 She brings it on her head. 1.00

00:27:25.000 Now, this is what the Scholars who were studying the Bible, they objected to that something that can be done by a donkey or a horse or an ox.

00:27:39.000 Why does a human being have to do it? 0.63

00:27:42.000 This slave labor is dehumanizing.

00:27:46.000 If water can bring itself to your home, when you use mind, and these monks are cultivating their mind, in Buddhist monastery, you are emptying your mind.

00:28:01.000 That's the technique of meditation.

00:28:04.000 But in a Christian monastery, particularly those in the Latin part of Europe, Latin-speaking part, not the Greek-speaking part, the monks are studying and they are working, but they are cultivating their mind.

00:28:20.000 So the mind makes water come to your home on its own.

00:28:27.000 And then that water power through the turbine can run your grinding mill, water mill.

00:28:35.000 So wherever you go, you go to Cambridge, you see Mills Road, these waters are running the mill.

00:28:42.000 So now, not only the wheat for all the monasteries being grinded by the water mill, but also all the women can come grind their grain.

00:28:56.000 So why did this happen? 0.71

00:28:57.000 This happened because of the biblical doctrine of the fall.

00:29:04.000 God created human beings to rule on this earth.

00:29:08.000 Sin made them slaves.

00:29:12.000 Sitting and grinding grain is slavery. 1.00

00:29:15.000 Women have to do it. 1.00

00:29:17.000 They cannot say to the husband that, look, you are sitting and playing card games. 0.99

00:29:22.000 You go and get water from the well or river while I sit and read a magazine, good cow keeping. 0.99

00:29:31.000 If a woman says that, she'll be slapped, beaten. 1.00

00:29:34.000 So she has to do it. 1.00

00:29:35.000 She's a slave.

00:29:37.000 But the Bible made a distinction between work and toil.

00:29:44.000 God is a worker.

00:29:46.000 He works for six days.

00:29:47.000 We should be like him work for six days to establish our dominion over the earth.

00:29:53.000 But sin turns work into toil, slavery, mindless, repetitive labor for which you have no choice.

00:30:03.000 Gospel saves us from our sin and the consequences of sin.

00:30:11.000 Hell is the last consequence of sin.

00:30:14.000 Work becoming toil, that's the curse put on Adam, then now you will have to eat of the sweat of your brow.

00:30:23.000 You'll have to work hard.

00:30:24.000 Parrots and peacocks and cats don't have to work very hard to eat.

00:30:31.000 Human species, which is most rational, has to work, has to sweat.

00:30:35.000 Even if you're sitting in air-conditioned offices or tractors or trucks, you still, if you're not literally sweating, you get high blood pressure because of the boss above you and the colleague next to you.

00:30:50.000 You get high blood pressure and you suffer.

00:30:54.000 But salvation from sin includes salvation from the consequences of sin.

00:31:01.000 So toil becoming work, you enjoy working to establish your dominion, to glorify your God.

00:31:10.000 So this theology of sin and salvation and the dignity of human being.

00:31:17.000 So the idea that a human being should not have to do what water can do, sun can do, wind can do, what animals can do, a human being should not have to do.

00:31:30.000 So this technology that developed in the West, now technology was developing everywhere, but mostly for war, for torture, for pleasure of nobility, sports, but a technology that emancipates the weak, the women, the slaves, the children, that developed only in Christian West in order to restore the dignity of human being,

00:31:58.000 which is the purpose of Jesus coming into this world to save slaves, to make them sons of God.

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00:33:09.000 It's so well said.

00:33:11.000 I underlined this and you basically covered this so well.

00:33:15.000 The theological factor that resolved their tension and drove technology was that the Bible distinguished work from toil.

00:33:23.000 To work was to be like God, but toil was a curse on human sin.

00:33:28.000 Toil was mindless, repetitive, dehumanizing labor.

00:33:31.000 This distinction enabled Christian monks to realize that human beings should not have to do what wind, water, or horses can do.

00:33:37.000 People must do what other species and natural forces cannot do.

00:33:41.000 Use creative reason to liberate human beings from the curse of toil.

00:33:46.000 So you just summed it up so well there.

00:33:49.000 So I have a question, though.

00:33:56.000 And you go through them.

00:33:57.000 You go through the fore and aft rig.

00:33:59.000 You go through the wheel, plow, and the horse.

00:34:02.000 You go through the watermill, the windmill, and the crank.

00:34:04.000 You go through the wheelbarrow and the flywheel.

00:34:07.000 And I underline this.

00:34:09.000 I said, yes, the purpose of this invention was to use human creativity for the glory of God and for the service of the weak, whereas other invention was never under that kind of moral paradigm.

00:34:21.000 So America, the country that we live in right now, is an extension of the West.

00:34:26.000 And in some ways, the climax of Western values.

00:34:29.000 And now we're starting to see that be put into very, very troubling times.

00:34:35.000 Can you talk about how if you lose the soul of Western civilization, which is a moral worldview, the Bible, and you do nothing but engage in humanistic indulgences, where does that lead a civilization is what I'm asking, Vishal, especially for young people.

00:34:55.000 Well, it's very simple.

00:34:57.000 The Declaration of Independence asserted the foundation of America that all men are created equal.

00:35:07.000 All are endowed by their Creator with inalienable right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

00:35:15.000 Now, is it self-evident to a high school graduate in America that all men are created, let alone created equal?

00:35:27.000 No. 0.99

00:35:28.000 That's a great point. 0.97

00:35:29.000 All men have evolved.

00:35:31.000 So did evolution make everybody equal? 0.98

00:35:35.000 No.

00:35:36.000 Evolution is a theory to explain inequality.

00:35:41.000 Inequality is self-evident.

00:35:43.000 So the fundamental mistake that was made on 4th of July 1776 was changing the original language of the Declaration of Independence.

00:35:55.000 Thomas Jefferson wrote that we hold these truths to be sacred, derived from sacred scriptures, that all men are created equal.

00:36:07.000 Because it was never self-evident to anybody that slaves and slave owners are equal.

00:36:14.000 The first white man who started preaching to the blacks in America was George Whitfield in this first great awakening.

00:36:24.000 Many white Christians got very angry at him.

00:36:27.000 What are you doing? 0.86

00:36:28.000 Are you trying to make the black slaves sit next to us in the church on the same pew? 0.98

00:36:36.000 And do you want us to drink the Holy Communion from the same cup as our slaves?

00:36:41.000 No, Whitfield could have backed down because he was the itinerant preacher who traveled to all the 13 colonies.

00:36:49.000 He crossed the Atlantic 13 times.

00:36:52.000 He needed money. 1.00

00:36:53.000 Blacks had no money to give him. 1.00

00:36:55.000 White had the money. 0.99

00:36:56.000 And the white Christians were getting angry at him for preaching to the blacks and making them children of God.

00:37:03.000 Instead of backing down, he began writing every, beginning in 1740, that is 35 years before the Revolutionary War, he began writing regularly the biblical idea that all men are made in God's image, not in monkeys' image.

00:37:24.000 All have come from the same parents.

00:37:28.000 It was not that apes were mating with different species, therefore different races evolved. 0.95

00:37:34.000 All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

00:37:38.000 All are loved by God equally.

00:37:41.000 Everyone's value is determined by the blood of Jesus Christ.

00:37:46.000 God so loved the world that he gave his son, etc.

00:37:49.000 Anyone can become a child of God through repentance and faith, white or black.

00:37:54.000 So this, George Whitfield's champion or amplifier was Benjamin Franklin.

00:38:03.000 But later, Whitfield died in 1770.

00:38:07.000 In 76, when they are writing the Declaration, Thomas Paine's influence, the rationalist deist influence, that yes, of course everyone is evolved equal.

00:38:20.000 Everyone is created equal, but this is common sense.

00:38:22.000 This doesn't come from the Bible.

00:38:24.000 Everyone should have fundamental right to life, liberty, pursuit of happiness.

00:38:28.000 This is common sense.

00:38:30.000 So there is no such thing as common sense.

00:38:35.000 Common sense is a cultural creation, and that culture in America was created by the teaching of the Bible.

00:38:43.000 But Benjamin Franklin submitted to Thomas Paine, etc., and put pressure on Jefferson to change the language, which is what has created today's problem.

00:38:55.000 Because what happened in the Declaration was that the foundation of America at a conscious level, every idea was biblical, but the Bible was not acknowledged as a source.

00:39:07.000 Human common sense, self-evident reason, was made the foundation.

00:39:14.000 But of course, that made the problem that human reason cannot prove Trinity.

00:39:20.000 How can Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three persons, be one God?

00:39:26.000 So, once theologians started defending rationalism, which in America was called common sense, it became very difficult for university professors to say we believe in Trinity.

00:39:39.000 They were good Christians, good people, competent people.

00:39:43.000 But Harvard was won by Unitarians in 1805. 0.90

00:39:48.000 For many years, the Trinitarians tried to fight the political battle in Harvard University to win back the board.

00:39:58.000 But instead of winning Harvard, they kept losing all the Ivy League colleges, Princeton, Yale, etc.

00:40:04.000 The Christian colleges that Trinitarian Christianity had built in America were lost, lost to rationalism. 0.67

00:40:13.000 But without revelation, reason cannot defend itself.

00:40:18.000 Why does truth have to be logical?

00:40:20.000 What is logic?

00:40:21.000 Where does it come from?

00:40:22.000 What is reason?

00:40:24.000 Why should I believe your reasoning if my brain chemistry and my personal interest leads me to an opposite conclusion?

00:40:32.000 So reason has destroyed itself.

00:40:34.000 And now we have from age of reason to age of insanity, age of nonsense, which is destroying that it's not just that the idea of human equality is a peculiarly Bible's idea, but the right to life, right to property.

00:40:54.000 Oh, you have a shop, you are a capitalist, I should have a right to take money back because anybody who has made money, so there is an ethic of loot which is being taught in American universities now in the name of social justice, because it is automatically assumed that anybody who has made money through selling retail or wholesale or investment stock market or manufacturing or distribution,

00:41:23.000 capitalists are filthy.

00:41:26.000 They have taken our money. 0.91

00:41:28.000 So we should have the right to take it back.

00:41:31.000 And that's what socialism is.

00:41:33.000 The socialist Bernie Sanders would say to the looters: No, you don't loot.

00:41:40.000 You give the money to us.

00:41:42.000 You give your vote to us.

00:41:45.000 We will form the government.

00:41:47.000 We will tax these capitalists.

00:41:50.000 And we will make sure that you get a monthly check so you can sit in front of television and smoke weed and drink beer and watch good programs.

00:42:01.000 And you don't have to work.

00:42:03.000 We will pay a check to everybody.

00:42:04.000 We'll take care of free education.

00:42:07.000 We'll be responsible for your education, for your health, et cetera, et cetera.

00:42:11.000 So what the people are doing on the streets, the ethic of loot, that's what American politicians who are products of this university system, which has given up the Bible.

00:42:25.000 The whole face that if you do not work, you do not eat.

00:42:30.000 No, no, no, I'm starving.

00:42:31.000 I must loot.

00:42:35.000 So, yes, the whole system that created a great nation, and America was a great nation, and that's why I support President Trump, because it needs to be made great again.

00:42:49.000 This morning we had a discussion, global discussion on United Nations.

00:42:54.000 And I presented my case that United Nations is one of the greatest gifts that America has given to the world.

00:43:01.000 Now, Americans, many Americans and my good friends, are angry at the United Nations, but they are angry at the swamp in Washington, D.C. also, and they are angry at the press also.

00:43:12.000 But so yes, there's a lot of corruption, a lot of reform necessary. 0.83

00:43:18.000 But America was a great culture, but it was built on the Bible, right to property.

00:43:26.000 You work hard because you save what you create. 0.95

00:43:32.000 You own what you create, what you inherit, what you pass on to your next generation.

00:43:37.000 That right, inalienable right to property.

00:43:41.000 You take that away.

00:43:42.000 Nobody has any motivation to work.

00:43:47.000 It is so well said, Vishal.

00:43:49.000 And we're living through, I mean, if I'm not mistaken, this book is about 10 years old.

00:43:52.000 Is that right?

00:43:53.000 That I'm, yeah, it's so clairvoyant.

00:43:56.000 I feel like I'm reading what we're living through right now because I think it's actually more applicable because in some ways you were looking at the leading indicators of where this was going.

00:44:06.000 I actually, please go ahead.

00:44:13.000 We're going to have you back on to talk about that one.

00:44:17.000 So just in closing here, Vishal, can you just let us know where, or just your opinion of where the civilization is headed if it continues to lose its soul, the revelation part and that blend of reason and revelation are both very important.

00:44:33.000 And I tell people all the time that we as Christians should not be afraid of scientific inquiry or discovery.

00:44:39.000 I believe the more that we look into the natural world, the more it confirms that this was a created world, not a accidental world, whether it be mapping the human genome or understanding the sophistication of the composition of our atmosphere or how life is created.

00:44:54.000 The more scientific inquiry we do, the more it confirms the improbability of the creation of everything around us.

00:45:00.000 And I think that it was either Aquinas or Augustine that encouraged scientific discovery and not tried to suppress.

00:45:08.000 I might be misremembering one of the early church fathers.

00:45:11.000 However, I think it's a very important thing, though, that if you go nothing but reason, nothing but skepticism, what does that look like, Vishal?

00:45:19.000 What kind of country is that?

00:45:20.000 Where does the civilization head?

00:45:23.000 Because we're just beginning to see the start of that.

00:45:26.000 Well, on the 31st of October, which is the Reformation Day, we are launching the third education revolution.

00:45:34.000 Because what has disintegrated is the second education revolution that began 500 years ago this year in 1520, exactly 500 years ago, Martin Luther wrote an open letter to Christian nobility in Germany calling on the basis of priesthood and kingship of all believers that every child should be educated.

00:46:00.000 But that ownership of that education which was with the church passed on to the state and teachers' unions, and all of that has become mess.

00:46:12.000 So what you're seeing on the streets, what you're seeing in the political system is a mess, which the corruption of that second education revolution that Luther started has ended.

00:46:25.000 So it's a time for a third revolution.

00:46:28.000 America's future is great.

00:46:30.000 America will become a great nation again because this third revolution will take the education from the state, give it to the church.

00:46:43.000 Students will enroll in the university, will go to the local church to attend classes.

00:46:48.000 Professors will also go to the church online.

00:46:51.000 So every student will be able to study under the best professor, best teacher.

00:46:58.000 And a church will have academic pastor who's like a homeschooling mom or dad that mentors face to face.

00:47:08.000 So this is a hybrid education where the academic pastor who is a preacher and a teacher of truth to Gentiles, as Paul describes himself.

00:47:19.000 So taking education back from the state, giving it to the church in the context of education becoming pursuit of veritas and virtue, truth and character, along with research, development of skills, gathering of information, etc.

00:47:43.000 So American church has the capacity to disciple America.

00:47:48.000 American church did not have the theology to disciple a nation for the last, since the Second World War.

00:47:56.000 A number of factors had come together that American church lost the theology of discipling the nation.

00:48:02.000 It began to think that to convert means that someone goes forward in an altar call and prays a sinner prayer, he's converted.

00:48:13.000 This was the same mistake which Charlemagne was making in the 9th century.

00:48:18.000 He thought that to convert means to baptize.

00:48:20.000 So he would force pagans to be baptized until philosopher, English philosopher Al Quinn explained to him that no, to convert means to educate.

00:48:31.000 It means law of God, truth of God, written in your heart and mind by the Spirit of God.

00:48:39.000 So that process of discipling a whole nation, which the Protestant movement began and then the counter-reformation that the Jesuits adopted, that has to be revived again.

00:48:52.000 And the church has to take the ownership of education.

00:48:56.000 It will mean how do you finance the education of the poor, etc.

00:49:00.000 So I have the whole 40 or 50 of us are developing this global education revolution, a kingdom education revolution, which will be formally launched on the 31st in Pennsylvania.

00:49:15.000 And we believe that in the next generation, America will be reformed because this destructive nonsense, America has become the age of nonsense today because of the American universities.

00:49:31.000 And restoring sanity, the spirit of wisdom, understanding, knowledge to America is possible.

00:49:42.000 American church has the capacity.

00:49:44.000 And I am very confident that there will be a new great awakening.

00:49:50.000 I love that.

00:49:51.000 Well, God bless you, Vishal.

00:49:52.000 I can't wait to have you back on the program for your other book.

00:49:55.000 Again, it is the book that made your world.

00:49:57.000 It goes piece by piece of everything that we take for granted from science to reason.

00:50:02.000 You have a whole chapter on heroism, technology, humanity.

00:50:06.000 It's so well written.

00:50:07.000 And that's just one of your books.

00:50:09.000 I mean, you have a whole roster of books that is just.

00:50:14.000 Yeah, please name a couple of the titles.

00:50:16.000 Well, Truth and Transformation was published in 2009.

00:50:20.000 That's when this education revolution was first proposed. 0.99

00:50:25.000 But the Indonesians took it. 0.75

00:50:27.000 American Church did not take the proposal how to reform America.

00:50:32.000 But in 2014, we began Virtuous Campus in Minnesota to attempt it.

00:50:39.000 But the church has been very reluctant.

00:50:41.000 But COVID-19 has changed everything.

00:50:44.000 Now, everyone is very open to consider e-learning, etc.

00:50:50.000 So the time has come for a new reformation, new awakening.

00:50:55.000 Reformation is a theological questioning of some of the assumptions.

00:51:01.000 So one of the problems which you're fighting, and hopefully you will win, is the mindset which so much of the American church had that his kingdom is not of this world.

00:51:12.000 Jesus should take us to heaven.

00:51:14.000 He can rule there.

00:51:16.000 Let Antichrist rule this earth.

00:51:18.000 Did he bring his kingdom to this world?

00:51:21.000 Should his will be done here on this earth?

00:51:24.000 This is a theological problem that American church has.

00:51:28.000 Then, no, no, no.

00:51:29.000 When the church prays, Your kingdom come, your will be done, what they mean is that let Antichrist's kingdom come, let his will be done in America.

00:51:38.000 And therefore, the Antichrist is happily doing his will.

00:51:42.000 But we've got to go back to the original teaching of Christ that no, no, the kingdom of heaven has come and it comes as a seed that is planted in the hearts and minds of people.

00:51:55.000 And that's where every child is a soil where the kingdom of heaven has to be planted so that he begins to do God's will and he makes sure that his, the world where he has establishing his dominion, that's where Christ's will is being done.

00:52:12.000 That's incredibly well said.

00:52:13.000 Well, Vishal, thank you so much for taking the time with us today and can't wait to have you back on soon.

00:52:19.000 So God bless you.

00:52:20.000 Thank you.

00:52:21.000 Thank you for having me.

00:52:22.000 You bet.

00:52:23.000 All right.

00:52:23.000 Talk to you soon, Vishal.

00:52:24.000 Thank you so much.

00:52:25.000 Bye-bye.

00:52:29.000 What a great conversation that was with Vishal.

00:52:31.000 If you guys want to get involved with Turning Point USA, go to tpusa.com, tpusa.com to get involved in the fight for our country, fight for liberty, fight for freedom, for American exceptionalism at tpusa.com, tpusa.com.

00:52:46.000 If you guys want to support our program, go to charlikirk.com/slash support.

00:52:50.000 CharlieKirk.com/slash support is your home to be able to support our program to hire more staff, expand our influence at charliekirk.com/slash support.

00:53:00.000 Thank you guys so much for listening.

00:53:02.000 God bless.

00:53:03.000 Talk to you soon.

The Charlie Kirk Show - September 16, 2020

How the Bible Built Western Civilization and Why It’s Worth Defending with Vishal Mangalwadi

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