00:00:08.000On this very special episode of the Charlie Kirk Show, we have Vishal Mangalwadi, one of my favorite authors who wrote one of my favorite books.
00:00:15.000It's such an important conversation, The Book That Made Your World.
00:00:18.000You guys are going to learn so much here.
00:00:20.000I had so much fun in this conversation.
00:01:06.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:01:51.000I'm actually reading it slower than any other book I have read because there are parts, and you can see just how much I've underlined and how much I annotate.
00:02:02.000So, Vishal, you start the book in a very interesting way.
00:02:05.000It catches your attention where you make an argument about how music is something that is more than just a melody we hear in our ears.
00:02:15.000It's actually something that is spiritual.
00:02:18.000And music is also a reflection of the culture that we're living through.
00:02:21.000You talk about Kurt Cobain, and you talk about how that kind of was the beginning in a lot of ways of this modern nihilistic period we're living through.
00:02:30.000Can you just walk through with our audience that argument that you made in the book?
00:02:35.000I think it's one of the best that I have seen articulated on kind of the place of music in a society and its proper role.
00:02:55.000Even on public television, you cannot see a woman singing because this is haram.
00:03:04.000And so America, USA, became a musical civilization because of Puritanism.
00:03:16.000There's a whole research that has been published that I referred to.
00:03:21.000But it was the music developed in Latin West, so Western Europe, because of St. Augustine's six volumes on music,
00:03:38.000where, of course, the Old Testament, if you read the book of Psalms and encourages us to make music to the Lord with all kinds of instruments, because the biblical assumption is that the whole creation exists for the glory of God.
00:03:54.000You have created everything for your glory.
00:03:57.000Therefore the wind and the water and the wood and the skin and the metals can make music.
00:04:05.000And this as human beings as created to be priests and kings, having our dominion, but serving our father, worshiping him, we use the whole of the creation to worship God.
00:04:23.000But many cultures didn't accept that even within Christianity.
00:04:28.000So Orthodox Church, if you go to in Russia or Ukraine, you will have, there might be very gifted musicians, but they will be performing German musicians, but music will be in the evenings.
00:04:44.000There might be a piano and an organ, beautiful pipe organ in the church, but during the worship service, there will be no music.
00:04:51.000You come back in the evening to listen to the music.
00:04:54.000So while that has been true in some of even the Christian circles, it is very important in many non-Christian circles that music was looked down upon.
00:05:07.000But because of Augustinian tradition in monasteries, the monks who were worshiping the Lord, they began to develop music.
00:05:19.000And Luther, as he was educated in Augustinian monasteries and universities, when he pioneered the Protestant Reformation, he emphasized music.
00:05:32.000At that time, there was no science subject in the schools or colleges of the university.
00:05:39.000So music was something where you began to learn singing and music and then reading and writing and arithmetic, etc.
00:05:49.000So music was very important part of Christian education because education was not something which prepared you for a job.
00:06:01.000It was not a utilitarian thing, but it was something chief end of men is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.
00:06:11.000And you glorify him through singing and praise and worship, among other things.
00:06:23.000Because he believed that all human beings are supposed to be priests if they believe in God, priesthood of all believers, it meant everybody has to sing because 500 years ago, if you went to church, congregation didn't sing.
00:06:38.000Those young boys who were going to be becoming monks, who were studying in the monastery, they would be professional choirs who are trained to sing.
00:06:50.000But then Luther said, no, everyone is a priest.
00:08:13.000So Paul says that, that do not be drunk with wine, which leads to debauchery.
00:08:22.000And so much of music has led to debauchery and corruption of morals and behavior.
00:08:31.000But we ought to be using it to develop the finer culture.
00:08:38.000So music was part of the fine culture.
00:08:41.000And in fact, the comparison with Cobain is tragic because the first five books of Augustine on music, they are technical.
00:08:53.000Any follower of Pythagoras or others could have written those technical treaties on music.
00:09:00.000His sixth book is Biblical Philosophy of Music, where he relates music to the goal of human life to love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves.
00:09:14.000But because Kurt Kobain became a Buddhist and rejected the existence of God and then had to reject existence of self itself, so Buddhism is nihilism, death to self.
00:09:30.000There is no meaning, no purpose to life.
00:09:33.000And this singing, so the music becomes scream, anguish, emptiness, silence, death.
00:09:44.000And Kurt Kobane, in his lyrics, he is shouting about these things of emptiness and meaninglessness and absurdity.
00:09:55.000And that is, of course, hurting so much, so many young people who find that it is, music becomes a source of emptying your mind, like Hare Krishna, Hare Ram, where you're keeping on chanting some mantras endlessly until your mind goes blank.
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00:11:20.000You say in the book so well here, in this sense, Cobain stands as the direct opposite of the life, thoughts, and work of Bach.
00:11:29.000Whereas Bach's music celebrated life's meaning as the soul's eternal rest and the creator's love, Cobain became the symbol of loss of a center of meaning in the contemporary West.
00:11:42.000In a following chapter, and you start with this idea of music, and I think it really captures the reader's attention because you're really not sure where you're going with it, and then you land it beautifully into this idea of the West.
00:11:54.000And this is something I mentioned in my RNC speech that the president is the bodyguard of Western civilization.
00:12:00.000And a lot of people don't quite understand what Western civilization is.
00:12:04.000I'm so moved by this book and by your writings and by your speeches, because similar to Ravi Zacharias, you have an Eastern perspective on the West.
00:12:13.000It's almost you're looking outward into the West and you're able to inform those of us that grew around this idea of private property and free enterprise and freedom of speech and assembly, how good we actually have it.
00:12:27.000You have an incredible story here, Vishal, where you were early in your life trying to bring charitable help.
00:12:55.000Again, I'm just paraphrasing it, but you contrast that in the West, we have no comprehension of just looking at children as disposable objects.
00:15:23.000She started making excuses, who will look after the animal.
00:15:26.000So my wife was really moved by their poverty.
00:15:28.000And she said, look, I will pay for a laborer so your husband can have a laborer look after the farm for one day and go to look after the baby.
00:15:39.000Well, she said, when he comes, I will talk to my husband.
00:15:42.000So my wife cycled back, told me to go and speak to the husband.
00:15:47.000So as I started speaking to him, they had already made up their mind, they're not going.
00:16:28.000If you're killing this child, why don't you pick up a knife and stab the baby?
00:16:34.000Why do you have to give this long starving her to death without treatment?
00:16:41.000So I told the father, look, if you don't send this girl with my wife to the hospital tomorrow, I'll bring the police and say that you are deliberately killing this baby.
00:16:54.000So there was an elderly man who advised the couple that, look, this guy is crazy.
00:17:33.000The greatest joy was when she would smile at us.
00:17:37.000But then mother came and started fighting with my wife that the village, my caste, our caste will excommunicate us because you are feeding, our daughter is feeding your, eating your food.
00:18:41.000I believe that the parents wanted to kill her.
00:18:44.000My wife didn't believe any parents could kill their child.
00:18:50.000So it took three more deaths before my wife came to believe that, yes, infanticide was very common.
00:18:57.000If you had argued, they would have said that, look, we didn't have any facilities for ultrasound.
00:19:06.000If they had known this is a girl, we would have aborted her.
00:19:11.000We have done nothing, which lots of Americans don't do, kill their own babies.
00:19:18.000We had no facilities for ultrasound facilities for abortion here.
00:19:23.000So most families kill their newborn daughters the moment they are born, within hours.
00:19:30.000And it doesn't take too much to kill your daughter.
00:19:33.000You just put her in the sun when the sun is too hot, or you put her out in the winter cold when it's very cold and don't cover her, the baby will be dead.
00:19:42.000Don't feed anything, the baby will be dead.
00:21:08.000She could become the prime minister of India.
00:21:11.000So is a girl a human being made in God's image who deserves our investment, love, service?
00:21:20.000But right now, if you do not see human beings as precious made in God's image, endowed with inalienable right to life, the time is already here where children will say that old parents who are useless, who don't work, who don't contribute anything to society, they should be killed.
00:21:49.000Why should we have to pay a lot of Medicare, Medi-claim, and invest a lot of time listening to old parents who don't do any good, but just ask a lot of questions and give us a lot of orders?
00:22:03.000So are those parents who are old and unproductive, should they be loved and served and ministered to, or should they be killed?
00:22:13.000If a baby is inconvenient and can be killed, why not old people who are useless, unproductive in terms of utilitarianism or pragmatism?
00:22:44.000Why shouldn't children choose to kill you?
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00:23:44.000Now, Vishal, you contrast this culture of death where you grew up in India with what the West was built on.
00:23:52.000Now, mind you, there's a million abortions a year in our country.
00:23:56.000So we're far from being able to say that we're perfect in this regard.
00:24:01.000But the West has made significant civilizational progress.
00:24:07.000I hesitate to say that word progress because I think it's way overused and misused in the capacity of recognizing human rights.
00:24:14.000You talk in this book that the Bible was able to inspire the world that almost everyone listened to this podcast will be in the West, mostly in America, and how improbable it is of what we're living through.
00:24:28.000You have another really interesting part in the book that, again, I just stop and I have to close the book and think about it because there's such incredibly deep ideas where you say you took exception with an old proverb that necessity is the engine of innovation, meaning that if you need something, you're going to find a way to innovate it.
00:24:49.000I'm paraphrasing, invention or innovation.
00:24:52.000And you said, no, look at the Taj Mahal and then look at the poverty around the Taj Mahal.
00:24:58.000Just because you're able to create something doesn't mean you'll be able to actually be able to use the technology to improve your civilization.
00:25:07.000Vishal, why is it that the West has been able to do all these sorts of things?
00:25:12.000What is it about the Bible that has been able to create this civilization?
00:25:16.000See, the Christian monks, Roman Catholic Orthodox monks, and the Buddhist monk had a same problem, identical problem.
00:25:55.000But the New Testament says that whoever doesn't work shouldn't eat.
00:25:59.000And that created a problem for Christian monasteries, young people who have gone to monastery to pray, to study, study scripture, study philosophy, etc.
00:26:10.000Now there are 200 young men and they eat a lot and you have to grind a lot of grain and make a lot of bread.
00:26:22.000So these young boys have to do that, but they're cultivating their mind.
00:26:28.000So most of these monasteries in Europe were built near rivers.
00:26:31.000They would dam the river, just a little river, let the water fall, run a turbine, which pumps the water up into storage, and then you pipe that water.
00:26:43.000Earlier, when nobody was manufacturing pipe, they would take logs.
00:26:57.000Water is bringing itself to your village, to your monastery.
00:27:01.000But because there is more water than you can consume, you let some of it go into the village.
00:27:06.000Then every woman doesn't have to go morning and evening to haul water on her head.
00:27:11.000So the cultures that were able to build pyramids and tal pyramids and tajmahals, they never built wheelbarrows because it was a woman's job to bring water.
00:27:25.000Now, this is what the Scholars who were studying the Bible, they objected to that something that can be done by a donkey or a horse or an ox.
00:27:46.000If water can bring itself to your home, when you use mind, and these monks are cultivating their mind, in Buddhist monastery, you are emptying your mind.
00:28:04.000But in a Christian monastery, particularly those in the Latin part of Europe, Latin-speaking part, not the Greek-speaking part, the monks are studying and they are working, but they are cultivating their mind.
00:28:20.000So the mind makes water come to your home on its own.
00:28:27.000And then that water power through the turbine can run your grinding mill, water mill.
00:28:35.000So wherever you go, you go to Cambridge, you see Mills Road, these waters are running the mill.
00:28:42.000So now, not only the wheat for all the monasteries being grinded by the water mill, but also all the women can come grind their grain.
00:30:24.000Parrots and peacocks and cats don't have to work very hard to eat.
00:30:31.000Human species, which is most rational, has to work, has to sweat.
00:30:35.000Even if you're sitting in air-conditioned offices or tractors or trucks, you still, if you're not literally sweating, you get high blood pressure because of the boss above you and the colleague next to you.
00:30:50.000You get high blood pressure and you suffer.
00:30:54.000But salvation from sin includes salvation from the consequences of sin.
00:31:01.000So toil becoming work, you enjoy working to establish your dominion, to glorify your God.
00:31:10.000So this theology of sin and salvation and the dignity of human being.
00:31:17.000So the idea that a human being should not have to do what water can do, sun can do, wind can do, what animals can do, a human being should not have to do.
00:31:30.000So this technology that developed in the West, now technology was developing everywhere, but mostly for war, for torture, for pleasure of nobility, sports, but a technology that emancipates the weak, the women, the slaves, the children, that developed only in Christian West in order to restore the dignity of human being,
00:31:58.000which is the purpose of Jesus coming into this world to save slaves, to make them sons of God.
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00:34:09.000I said, yes, the purpose of this invention was to use human creativity for the glory of God and for the service of the weak, whereas other invention was never under that kind of moral paradigm.
00:34:21.000So America, the country that we live in right now, is an extension of the West.
00:34:26.000And in some ways, the climax of Western values.
00:34:29.000And now we're starting to see that be put into very, very troubling times.
00:34:35.000Can you talk about how if you lose the soul of Western civilization, which is a moral worldview, the Bible, and you do nothing but engage in humanistic indulgences, where does that lead a civilization is what I'm asking, Vishal, especially for young people.
00:36:56.000And the white Christians were getting angry at him for preaching to the blacks and making them children of God.
00:37:03.000Instead of backing down, he began writing every, beginning in 1740, that is 35 years before the Revolutionary War, he began writing regularly the biblical idea that all men are made in God's image, not in monkeys' image.
00:38:07.000In 76, when they are writing the Declaration, Thomas Paine's influence, the rationalist deist influence, that yes, of course everyone is evolved equal.
00:38:20.000Everyone is created equal, but this is common sense.
00:38:30.000So there is no such thing as common sense.
00:38:35.000Common sense is a cultural creation, and that culture in America was created by the teaching of the Bible.
00:38:43.000But Benjamin Franklin submitted to Thomas Paine, etc., and put pressure on Jefferson to change the language, which is what has created today's problem.
00:38:55.000Because what happened in the Declaration was that the foundation of America at a conscious level, every idea was biblical, but the Bible was not acknowledged as a source.
00:39:07.000Human common sense, self-evident reason, was made the foundation.
00:39:14.000But of course, that made the problem that human reason cannot prove Trinity.
00:39:20.000How can Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, three persons, be one God?
00:39:26.000So, once theologians started defending rationalism, which in America was called common sense, it became very difficult for university professors to say we believe in Trinity.
00:39:39.000They were good Christians, good people, competent people.
00:39:43.000But Harvard was won by Unitarians in 1805.
00:39:48.000For many years, the Trinitarians tried to fight the political battle in Harvard University to win back the board.
00:39:58.000But instead of winning Harvard, they kept losing all the Ivy League colleges, Princeton, Yale, etc.
00:40:04.000The Christian colleges that Trinitarian Christianity had built in America were lost, lost to rationalism.
00:40:13.000But without revelation, reason cannot defend itself.
00:40:34.000And now we have from age of reason to age of insanity, age of nonsense, which is destroying that it's not just that the idea of human equality is a peculiarly Bible's idea, but the right to life, right to property.
00:40:54.000Oh, you have a shop, you are a capitalist, I should have a right to take money back because anybody who has made money, so there is an ethic of loot which is being taught in American universities now in the name of social justice, because it is automatically assumed that anybody who has made money through selling retail or wholesale or investment stock market or manufacturing or distribution,
00:41:50.000And we will make sure that you get a monthly check so you can sit in front of television and smoke weed and drink beer and watch good programs.
00:42:07.000We'll be responsible for your education, for your health, et cetera, et cetera.
00:42:11.000So what the people are doing on the streets, the ethic of loot, that's what American politicians who are products of this university system, which has given up the Bible.
00:42:25.000The whole face that if you do not work, you do not eat.
00:42:35.000So, yes, the whole system that created a great nation, and America was a great nation, and that's why I support President Trump, because it needs to be made great again.
00:42:49.000This morning we had a discussion, global discussion on United Nations.
00:42:54.000And I presented my case that United Nations is one of the greatest gifts that America has given to the world.
00:43:01.000Now, Americans, many Americans and my good friends, are angry at the United Nations, but they are angry at the swamp in Washington, D.C. also, and they are angry at the press also.
00:43:12.000But so yes, there's a lot of corruption, a lot of reform necessary.
00:43:18.000But America was a great culture, but it was built on the Bible, right to property.
00:43:26.000You work hard because you save what you create.
00:43:32.000You own what you create, what you inherit, what you pass on to your next generation.
00:43:37.000That right, inalienable right to property.
00:43:56.000I feel like I'm reading what we're living through right now because I think it's actually more applicable because in some ways you were looking at the leading indicators of where this was going.
00:44:13.000We're going to have you back on to talk about that one.
00:44:17.000So just in closing here, Vishal, can you just let us know where, or just your opinion of where the civilization is headed if it continues to lose its soul, the revelation part and that blend of reason and revelation are both very important.
00:44:33.000And I tell people all the time that we as Christians should not be afraid of scientific inquiry or discovery.
00:44:39.000I believe the more that we look into the natural world, the more it confirms that this was a created world, not a accidental world, whether it be mapping the human genome or understanding the sophistication of the composition of our atmosphere or how life is created.
00:44:54.000The more scientific inquiry we do, the more it confirms the improbability of the creation of everything around us.
00:45:00.000And I think that it was either Aquinas or Augustine that encouraged scientific discovery and not tried to suppress.
00:45:08.000I might be misremembering one of the early church fathers.
00:45:11.000However, I think it's a very important thing, though, that if you go nothing but reason, nothing but skepticism, what does that look like, Vishal?
00:45:23.000Because we're just beginning to see the start of that.
00:45:26.000Well, on the 31st of October, which is the Reformation Day, we are launching the third education revolution.
00:45:34.000Because what has disintegrated is the second education revolution that began 500 years ago this year in 1520, exactly 500 years ago, Martin Luther wrote an open letter to Christian nobility in Germany calling on the basis of priesthood and kingship of all believers that every child should be educated.
00:46:00.000But that ownership of that education which was with the church passed on to the state and teachers' unions, and all of that has become mess.
00:46:12.000So what you're seeing on the streets, what you're seeing in the political system is a mess, which the corruption of that second education revolution that Luther started has ended.
00:46:25.000So it's a time for a third revolution.
00:46:30.000America will become a great nation again because this third revolution will take the education from the state, give it to the church.
00:46:43.000Students will enroll in the university, will go to the local church to attend classes.
00:46:48.000Professors will also go to the church online.
00:46:51.000So every student will be able to study under the best professor, best teacher.
00:46:58.000And a church will have academic pastor who's like a homeschooling mom or dad that mentors face to face.
00:47:08.000So this is a hybrid education where the academic pastor who is a preacher and a teacher of truth to Gentiles, as Paul describes himself.
00:47:19.000So taking education back from the state, giving it to the church in the context of education becoming pursuit of veritas and virtue, truth and character, along with research, development of skills, gathering of information, etc.
00:47:43.000So American church has the capacity to disciple America.
00:47:48.000American church did not have the theology to disciple a nation for the last, since the Second World War.
00:47:56.000A number of factors had come together that American church lost the theology of discipling the nation.
00:48:02.000It began to think that to convert means that someone goes forward in an altar call and prays a sinner prayer, he's converted.
00:48:13.000This was the same mistake which Charlemagne was making in the 9th century.
00:48:18.000He thought that to convert means to baptize.
00:48:20.000So he would force pagans to be baptized until philosopher, English philosopher Al Quinn explained to him that no, to convert means to educate.
00:48:31.000It means law of God, truth of God, written in your heart and mind by the Spirit of God.
00:48:39.000So that process of discipling a whole nation, which the Protestant movement began and then the counter-reformation that the Jesuits adopted, that has to be revived again.
00:48:52.000And the church has to take the ownership of education.
00:48:56.000It will mean how do you finance the education of the poor, etc.
00:49:00.000So I have the whole 40 or 50 of us are developing this global education revolution, a kingdom education revolution, which will be formally launched on the 31st in Pennsylvania.
00:49:15.000And we believe that in the next generation, America will be reformed because this destructive nonsense, America has become the age of nonsense today because of the American universities.
00:49:31.000And restoring sanity, the spirit of wisdom, understanding, knowledge to America is possible.
00:50:44.000Now, everyone is very open to consider e-learning, etc.
00:50:50.000So the time has come for a new reformation, new awakening.
00:50:55.000Reformation is a theological questioning of some of the assumptions.
00:51:01.000So one of the problems which you're fighting, and hopefully you will win, is the mindset which so much of the American church had that his kingdom is not of this world.
00:51:29.000When the church prays, Your kingdom come, your will be done, what they mean is that let Antichrist's kingdom come, let his will be done in America.
00:51:38.000And therefore, the Antichrist is happily doing his will.
00:51:42.000But we've got to go back to the original teaching of Christ that no, no, the kingdom of heaven has come and it comes as a seed that is planted in the hearts and minds of people.
00:51:55.000And that's where every child is a soil where the kingdom of heaven has to be planted so that he begins to do God's will and he makes sure that his, the world where he has establishing his dominion, that's where Christ's will is being done.
00:52:29.000What a great conversation that was with Vishal.
00:52:31.000If you guys want to get involved with Turning Point USA, go to tpusa.com, tpusa.com to get involved in the fight for our country, fight for liberty, fight for freedom, for American exceptionalism at tpusa.com, tpusa.com.
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