The Charlie Kirk Show - July 25, 2023


How To Defang a Deep State with James Bacon and Miranda Devine


Episode Stats

Length

36 minutes

Words per Minute

168.99817

Word Count

6,129

Sentence Count

468


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Miranda Devine kicks off the show with the latest Joe Biden impeachment news, then James Bacon talks about why you must keep your enemies close but your bureaucrats closer, an incredibly in-depth and important conversation of how we take back control of the deep state in 2025 if we were to win the presidency.

Transcript

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00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, Dan the Charlie Kirk Show.
00:00:01.000 Miranda Devine kicks off the show with the latest Joe Biden impeachment news.
00:00:05.000 Then James Bacon talks about why you must keep your enemies close, but your bureaucrats closer.
00:00:09.000 An incredibly in-depth and important conversation of how we take back control of the deep state in 2025 if we were to win the presidency.
00:00:19.000 Email us as alwaysfreedom at charliekirk.com.
00:00:21.000 Become a member, members.charliekirk.com.
00:00:24.000 Listen to this clip.
00:00:25.000 Does this not get your attention?
00:00:27.000 Listen.
00:00:28.000 I was watching the other day.
00:00:29.000 I'm actually not a huge Martin Luther King fan or whatever.
00:00:33.000 Super flawed guy.
00:00:34.000 But I was watching the last, the audio, I was listening to the audio of the last speech that he gave the night before he was killed, April 3rd, 1968.
00:00:42.000 He was killed the next afternoon.
00:00:44.000 And he gave this speech, and he had just been like cheating with a bunch of different women.
00:00:47.000 Okay.
00:00:48.000 Yeah, he had a tendency to.
00:00:49.000 Oh, my gosh.
00:00:50.000 No, he was like sexually out of control.
00:00:52.000 But he gave this speech in which he clearly predicted his own death.
00:00:56.000 Like, there's no doubt if you listen to this that God is speaking through Martin Luther King.
00:01:00.000 And again, I don't like Martin Luther King's program.
00:01:03.000 I don't like his behaviors.
00:01:06.000 Worshiping Martin Luther King is absurd to me.
00:01:08.000 But I got to say, if you listen to that speech, God is speaking through Martin Luther King.
00:01:12.000 There's no other explanation for that.
00:01:15.000 And you're like, well, that's kind of consistent with what we know.
00:01:18.000 We're all flawed.
00:01:19.000 The people in charge tend to be more flawed.
00:01:22.000 But it doesn't mean that they're not capable of greatness.
00:01:26.000 So let's just be honest about it.
00:01:28.000 The second you have to feel the need to pretend that you're perfect, you become a liar and you become paradoxically even less perfect, in my opinion.
00:01:36.000 That and more exclusive interviews, members.charliekirk.com.
00:01:40.000 That is members.charliekirk.com.
00:01:44.000 I want to thank those of you that are becoming members.
00:01:46.000 We thank you, thank you, thank you.
00:01:47.000 Check it out.
00:01:48.000 Members.charlikirk.com.
00:01:51.000 Buckle up, everybody.
00:01:52.000 Here we go.
00:01:53.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
00:01:55.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campuses.
00:01:57.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
00:02:00.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
00:02:04.000 I want to thank Charlie.
00:02:05.000 He's an incredible guy.
00:02:06.000 His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
00:02:14.000 We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:02:23.000 That's why we are here.
00:02:26.000 Brought to you by the Loan Experts I Trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandTodd.com.
00:02:36.000 In a moment, we'll be joined by the great Miranda Devine.
00:02:40.000 We are putting together an entire timeline.
00:02:45.000 We're going to be posting it on CharlieKirk.com of all the different forms of corruption.
00:02:50.000 It's really something.
00:02:52.000 And you look at what Hunter Biden engaged in.
00:02:56.000 You have some of the evidence from the laptop.
00:02:58.000 You now have Devin Archer.
00:03:00.000 It's just an extraordinary amount of evidence.
00:03:05.000 We have put some of the crime family leaders in jail for far lies.
00:03:12.000 You look at this New York Post article by Miranda Devine.
00:03:15.000 Hunter Biden put then-VP dad Joe Biden on phone with business associates at least two dozen times.
00:03:24.000 Hunter Biden would dial in his father, Joe Biden, on speakerphone into meetings.
00:03:30.000 According to testimony by Devin Archer, Archer48, who is facing jail for his role in a $60 million bond fraud, is scheduled to testify to the House Oversight Committee about meetings he witnessed that were attended by Joe Biden either in person or via speakerphone when Hunter would call his father and introduce him to foreign business partners or prospective investors.
00:03:55.000 Quote, we are looking forward very much to hearing from Devin Archer about all the times he has witnessed Joe Biden meet with Hunter Biden oversee business partners when he was vice president, including on speakerphone, James Comer says.
00:04:08.000 Joining us now is Miranda Devine.
00:04:09.000 Miranda, congratulations on the continual terrific and fabulous reporting.
00:04:14.000 What have we learned this week that we did not know about the Biden crime family corruption?
00:04:21.000 Look, I think the most bombshell thing this week is the sort of preview that I have of Devon Archer's upcoming testimony to the House Oversight Committee on Monday.
00:04:33.000 And Devin Archer is, well, was the best friend in business of Hunter Biden.
00:04:39.000 He was with him throughout all the Ukraine escapades and the early Chinese escapades.
00:04:45.000 He's met with Joe Biden several times and is close with the Biden family.
00:04:50.000 And he's heading to jail soon on a $60 million fraud scheme.
00:04:57.000 He says he was framed and that he lost money on the scheme, several million dollars.
00:05:02.000 Hunter Biden, who earned money, he earned about $200,000 from this company that went bust, but the Southern District of New York decided that he had nothing to do with the fraud and so nothing happened to him.
00:05:16.000 So I think the way Devin Archer is feeling is he has nothing to lose.
00:05:20.000 He didn't volunteer to testify, but he was asked to testify by James Comer.
00:05:26.000 So he's doing it on Monday.
00:05:27.000 And what he will say is that Joe Biden met with Hunter Biden's business partners several times that he witnessed, including up to two dozen times on speakerphone when this was sort of a Hunter Biden party trick when he was trying to impress foreign investors or seal a deal or get his foreign benefactors to realize that he was in touch with the vice president whenever he wanted to.
00:05:56.000 He would just whip out the phone and dial up his father, who was then vice president, and stick the phone on the table and introduce his father on speakerphone to the people around.
00:06:08.000 And that was impressive.
00:06:11.000 And I itemized one particular time that I think that Devin Archer is going to be testifying about, which is pretty crucial when it comes to the Ukraine grift.
00:06:21.000 And that was December 4, 2015.
00:06:24.000 Hunter Biden and Devin Archer were at a barisma board meeting.
00:06:28.000 That's that Ukrainian energy company that was paying Hunter $83,000 a month to sit on its board.
00:06:35.000 And they were having a board meeting in Dubai.
00:06:38.000 Board meeting was over.
00:06:39.000 The dinner was over.
00:06:40.000 And Hunter and Devon Archer go off to another bar nearby.
00:06:44.000 And they get an urgent call from the owner of Burisma and his right-hand man.
00:06:49.000 Where are you?
00:06:50.000 And then the two Ukrainians came rushing up to the bar to see them and said it was urgent.
00:06:56.000 Can you get your father on the line?
00:06:58.000 So that's what Hunter did.
00:06:59.000 He calls his father.
00:07:00.000 It's early afternoon in Washington, D.C. Joe Biden comes on the phone.
00:07:05.000 Hunter introduces him on speakerphone to the two Ukrainians.
00:07:09.000 He introduces them by name and says they need our support.
00:07:13.000 So that's significant because within a few days, Joe Biden as vice president was flying to Ukraine and would strong-arm the government there to fire the prosecutor Viktor Shokin, who at that moment was conducting a very aggressive investigation into burisma.
00:07:32.000 And he seized, in a couple of months, he would seize all the property belonging to that oligarch Zlichevsky, who was paying Hunter all that money.
00:07:44.000 The prosecutor would seize all his properties, four houses, two plots of land, Rolls-Royce.
00:07:50.000 So it was urgent business to get him off their back.
00:07:53.000 And sure enough, the prosecutor was fired because Joe Biden insisted that he was going to hold back a billion dollars of taxpayer money, U.S. aid, for Ukraine.
00:08:05.000 So the timeline's really important here, and it connects multiple different things.
00:08:10.000 It connects what we know with Hunter Biden, Joe and Hunter Biden with firing the Ukrainian prosecutor.
00:08:17.000 We now have Devin Archer's testimony.
00:08:19.000 So Miranda, is this a pattern that also manifested with the Chinese dealings?
00:08:24.000 Joe Biden said repeatedly he had nothing to do with Hunter Biden's foreign business dealings.
00:08:30.000 And not only did he have something to do with it, he was the closer, Miranda.
00:08:32.000 They brought him in as the seal the deal.
00:08:37.000 They were selling Joe Biden.
00:08:38.000 And it's important to note, this is why he, while he was vice president of the United States, is that correct?
00:08:44.000 Some of the Chinese deals were while he was vice president.
00:08:47.000 All of the Ukraine stuff was while he was vice president, although Hunter was still paid up until 2019.
00:08:54.000 And like some of the later Chinese deals were while he was vice president, but the money for the CEFC deal was paid after he left office, very shortly after.
00:09:06.000 And I mean, the other interesting thing about Joe Biden leaving office is that Hunter's stipend from the Burisma board was cut in half after Joe Biden left office a couple of months later.
00:09:18.000 So was his money actually cut off altogether from the Romanian oligarch that he was being paid by.
00:09:26.000 It's extraordinary.
00:09:27.000 So what, if you were to put this whole picture together, Miranda, are there any missing pieces right now for impeachment?
00:09:34.000 Is there anything we don't know?
00:09:36.000 I just mean this from not just a reporter standpoint, from a prosecutorial standpoint.
00:09:40.000 I think we have a rather comprehensive and complete picture of time, place, matter, motive.
00:09:47.000 So what do we have left to learn?
00:09:50.000 Look, there are quite a lot of pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that I know exist and that I think the House committees should be bringing up and will be.
00:10:02.000 There's some evidence that I know that another reporter, John Solomon, is going to be bringing out in the next couple of days, which show that the whole pretext that Joe Biden uses for why he fired the prosecutor and which is parroted ad nauseum by the Washington Post, fact checkers and by New York Times, et cetera, that, in fact, this was U.S. government policy, that Shokin, the prosecutor, was corrupt.
00:10:28.000 Well, you know, that's not true.
00:10:30.000 Oh, and also that Shokin was not investigating Barisma.
00:10:33.000 Well, I mean, he was.
00:10:35.000 The facts are the facts that he was seizing all the property of Zlachevsky.
00:10:39.000 And also that this prosecutor was a cleanskin who'd been brought in because the previous prosecutor had been so corrupt and there had been bribes paid to get Zlichevsky off some other problems he had in England.
00:10:53.000 So I think John Solomon will bring forward that.
00:10:56.000 Then there are other whistleblowers that are coming forward.
00:10:59.000 And look, I don't even know some of them that have come forward.
00:11:02.000 You know, it seems like every time you get a very plausible whistleblower gives testimony, that gives heart to other people embedded in the bureaucracy who can no longer live with their consciences and are inspired by these courageous patriots.
00:11:16.000 And the more whistleblowers, the worse it gets for Joe Biden.
00:11:20.000 There's two tracks here, Miranda.
00:11:22.000 There's the crimes and then there's the cover-up.
00:11:26.000 And they're both bad.
00:11:28.000 And they actually work in harmony with one another.
00:11:30.000 And in some ways, Kevin McCarthy seems to be zeroing in on the cover-up because that might be easier to prove.
00:11:36.000 I'm actually more...
00:11:37.000 Cover-up is a kind of standard operating procedure of super corrupt oligarchs in D.C. What I am just shocked about is how the Bidens received cash to sell out American foreign policy.
00:11:48.000 Not shocked.
00:11:49.000 I think that is treason.
00:11:50.000 Covering up is as old as Richard Nixon.
00:11:56.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
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00:12:59.000 So they will.
00:12:59.000 I'm going to read from this piece.
00:13:00.000 They will note the context that three days after the speakerphone call, the then vice president, who was Obama administration's point man for Ukraine, of course, his son was getting paid, was due to fly to Kyiv to address the Ukrainian parliament known as the Rada on December 9th, 2015 about quote, the poison of cronyism, corruption, and kleptocracy.
00:13:21.000 Ten weeks before the call, on September 24th, U.S. Ambassador Jeffrey Pyatt gave a speech about corruption in Odessa, in which he targeted Zolokachensky, pronunciation issues, by name.
00:13:31.000 So, Miranda, the timeline, timeline, timeline is everything.
00:13:34.000 Can you just walk our audience through the significance and what is the big takeaway from the timeline revelations that we are now able to understand conclusively?
00:13:44.000 Well, it seems clear from the emails that we've seen on Hunter Biden's laptop that came from the Ukrainians at Burisma to Hunter Biden and Devin Archer, his best friend who was also on the board with him, that the Ukrainians wanted something for the money that they were paying.
00:14:05.000 They wanted some deliverables, as Vadim Pozarsky described it in one email, laying out exactly what they wanted.
00:14:13.000 They wanted people, high-ranking American administration officials, to come to Ukraine to talk to the Ukrainian government about what a great company Burisma was and what a stellar character the oligarch who owned it, a guy called Nikolai Zlachevsky was.
00:14:32.000 And so this was expected and they were becoming very insistent, putting a lot of pressure on Hunter.
00:14:38.000 And, you know, that's ultimately what happened.
00:14:44.000 The Ukrainian government was taking the American officials at their word when they came one after the other, whether it was the ambassador or the vice president Joe Biden.
00:14:54.000 They would constantly lecture the Ukrainians about corruption.
00:14:58.000 And it is an incredibly corrupt country.
00:15:00.000 It's said to be the most corrupt country in Europe.
00:15:03.000 And so the government there, President Poroshenko, decided that the Americans meant what they said.
00:15:12.000 So he got this new prosecutor out of retirement, this guy called Viktor Shokin, and told him to go after corruption.
00:15:20.000 And of course, the biggest corrupt company at that stage was Burisma.
00:15:25.000 But Burisma was paying the vice president's son $83,000 a month.
00:15:29.000 So just the optics of that is terrible.
00:15:32.000 And Joe Biden has refused to admit that.
00:15:35.000 And ultimately, Joe Biden got the prosecutor fired who was investigating burisma.
00:15:41.000 And the proof that That was done to help barisma is that the prosecutor's successor, this new prosecutor, who wasn't even a prosecutor, he was a politician.
00:15:55.000 He was brought in and the company just got off with a slap on the wrist.
00:16:00.000 It was a sweetheart deal like the one that Hunter Biden's going to go for tomorrow in court.
00:16:05.000 So, Miranda, in closing here, what I think is a macro takeaway from all of your wonderful reporting is the attitude that the Bidens had towards their behavior and believing they were untouchable.
00:16:17.000 Do you find any evidence to this that the Bidens ever thought this would be discovered, that they would ever be investigated for this?
00:16:24.000 My outsider perspective, it seems as if they were acting as if they are so untouchable, so arrogant, with so much pride.
00:16:32.000 Is that a fair takeaway, Miranda?
00:16:35.000 Yeah, absolutely.
00:16:36.000 And look, this is the way that Joe Biden has always operated.
00:16:40.000 Remember, he's been influence peddling and getting favors from his donors in Delaware for nigh on 50 years since he first became a senator.
00:16:50.000 And Delaware is a particularly strange state, very small, and therefore a senator like Joe Biden is incredibly powerful, especially when he's been there so long.
00:17:02.000 And you've got all these corporations that are incorporated there, a lot of money sloshing around.
00:17:06.000 I don't think he even knows what corruption is anymore.
00:17:09.000 It's just as natural as breathing to him.
00:17:11.000 That's a great point.
00:17:12.000 They actually have the best anonymous LLC laws in the country.
00:17:17.000 So they actually have by far the most major corporations, entrepreneurial startups, seed funding, VC.
00:17:25.000 They are disproportionately filed in Delaware because they protect, they register in Delaware.
00:17:30.000 They protect all of the secretary, treasurer, filer.
00:17:35.000 They're well known for it, and it really makes you think.
00:17:38.000 Miranda Devine, excellent reporting.
00:17:39.000 We'll have you on again soon.
00:17:40.000 And thank you for flowing to the next segment.
00:17:43.000 Thank you.
00:17:47.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
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00:18:50.000 All right, this is going to be a great conversation, everybody.
00:18:52.000 We have James Bacon here.
00:18:53.000 James, welcome.
00:18:54.000 James was one of the fighters in the Trump White House, former director of operations for presidential personnel in the Trump White House.
00:19:02.000 He has an excellent piece that I want to direct all your attention to.
00:19:04.000 We'll link it at charliekirk.com.
00:19:06.000 Keep your friends close and your bureaucrats closer.
00:19:10.000 James Bacon has a plan and has deeply thought about how do we rein in the administrative state.
00:19:16.000 James Bacon, well to the program.
00:19:17.000 Tell us about your article.
00:19:19.000 Thank you for having me.
00:19:21.000 Yes.
00:19:21.000 So there's been this idea going around that moving the federal agencies outside of Washington, D.C. would help eradicate the deep state.
00:19:31.000 The problem with that is it puts the bureaucrats further away from the president's supervision.
00:19:38.000 Look at the CDC.
00:19:39.000 The CDC is located in Atlanta, Georgia.
00:19:42.000 It is the most corrupt, the most unaccountable agency, and the agency that the Trump administration had the most problems with managing.
00:19:51.000 So instead of moving the agencies away, the president needs to exert more management authority over them, keep a closer eye on them, appoint people like an attorney general over the FBI who treats the FBI as subordinate, which is how it's supposed to work under the law.
00:20:11.000 And that is how the president needs to treat all of these unaccountable agencies.
00:20:15.000 So I think that's a really great point.
00:20:17.000 It's funny.
00:20:19.000 I'm not ideological on this, but you could find an old Newsweek article of mine where I was actually openly promoting that Donald Trump decentralize all the agency heads.
00:20:29.000 So let me, again, I trust you a lot more than kind of my, you know, shooting from the hip-hop perspective, because it sounds good and it feels good.
00:20:37.000 Because I guess the idea, James, is, well, you make the agencies closer to the people.
00:20:41.000 You break it out of the beltway.
00:20:44.000 Maybe you can have, it forces the lobbyists to have a little bit harder time geographically to travel to all of them.
00:20:50.000 Your CDC example is terrific.
00:20:53.000 It is by far, it's its own leviathan.
00:20:57.000 It's in Georgia, which used to be a red state, and now who knows what it is.
00:21:01.000 So, James, build this out more.
00:21:03.000 So, if the solution is, what else would be wrong or a bad idea in, hey, put veterans affairs in Florida, put interior in Wyoming?
00:21:12.000 Why else is that a bad idea?
00:21:14.000 The problem is that it transplants those thousands of federal employees.
00:21:19.000 We're talking at least 5,000 federal employees, even with the small agencies.
00:21:23.000 We're talking upwards of 10,000 for some of the mid-size agencies.
00:21:28.000 It transfers all of those predominantly Democrat voters to red states or purple states, and the apparatus that lobbies them will then move with it.
00:21:39.000 So, if you moved an agency to Kansas City, what you would have is eventually turning Missouri more blue and also corrupting it by all the special interests and the people that make their money off the federal government moving with that agency.
00:21:56.000 I think that's smart.
00:21:57.000 Keep going.
00:21:58.000 Yep.
00:21:59.000 A lot of people argue that if you move these agencies, some of the bureaucrats will quit.
00:22:04.000 And that is true.
00:22:06.000 However, the new hires will be assimilated into the corrupt culture of the bureaucracy unless you purge the corruption at its root.
00:22:15.000 You have to fix the underlying problem.
00:22:18.000 You have to manage the agency first, fix the culture, or else people will just be assimilated into that culture and nothing will change.
00:22:26.000 So, then let's talk about what then to do.
00:22:28.000 Okay, so let's start with the immediate and then we'll go to what if we win.
00:22:32.000 What can Congress do if anything?
00:22:34.000 You were in the trenches knife fighting against these bureaucrats that hated Donald Trump and all this.
00:22:40.000 So, two-part question.
00:22:41.000 Number one, tell us about how bad it actually is in the deep state and the administrative state.
00:22:46.000 Number two, can Congress temporarily do anything before a new executive takes power?
00:22:51.000 Congress should get a civil service bill ready that repeals all civil service protections.
00:22:57.000 And the president on day one should say, I want a civil service reform bill on my desk that repeals these protections.
00:23:04.000 On January 20th, I expect to sign that bill.
00:23:07.000 If you do not present me with that bill, I will start enacting mass government layoffs through my executive power, which does exist.
00:23:15.000 So, he needs to play hardball with Congress, and Congress can start preparing a bill right now.
00:23:23.000 You asked about what else can be done.
00:23:25.000 It's a big problem.
00:23:26.000 It's worse than you could ever imagine.
00:23:28.000 These agencies are completely unaccountable.
00:23:31.000 When the president signs an executive order, the bureaucrats at the agencies laugh at that.
00:23:37.000 They look at the executive order as a suggestion.
00:23:40.000 There is no guarantee that they will actually get that executive order done unless you have placed your people in that agency to get it done.
00:23:50.000 So these are the types of things we need to be looking at.
00:23:53.000 So let's, let's, is there an example that comes to mind, James?
00:23:56.000 Let's really build this out.
00:23:58.000 I mean, whether it be maybe Trump's travel ban, or, you know, maybe Donald Trump wanted to build a barrier border wall, right?
00:24:05.000 Or Donald Trump wanted to move the embassy to Jerusalem or the Golan Heights, things that were unilaterally done.
00:24:12.000 Is there an example that comes to mind of a time where Donald Trump signed an executive order and it was delayed, misrepresented, or done on arrival by unelected bureaucrats?
00:24:21.000 Yes, the travel ban is a fantastic example.
00:24:24.000 When Donald Trump issued the travel ban, which was a campaign promise that everybody should have seen coming, he didn't yet have the people in place at the Department of Homeland Security to implement that executive order.
00:24:36.000 And the deep state resisted in any way they possibly could.
00:24:41.000 That meant they kept airports open.
00:24:44.000 They refused to interdict people at airports.
00:24:47.000 You have to get that machinery right first, then start giving the orders.
00:24:51.000 Unless that machinery is correct, there is no guarantee that the executive branch will reflect the president's view.
00:24:58.000 And so this was probably a daily pattern, right?
00:25:02.000 So there's the big ones, you know, travel ban, all that.
00:25:06.000 But then I'm sure there were the smaller ones, right?
00:25:08.000 I mean, for example, the quote-unquote anonymous guy who's a really bad guy.
00:25:12.000 What's his name again, that lunatic?
00:25:13.000 He was an unelected bureaucrat.
00:25:16.000 What's his name?
00:25:17.000 Miles Taylor.
00:25:18.000 Miles Taylor, really bad guy.
00:25:20.000 Or Eric Shimmarella.
00:25:21.000 I mean, think about this.
00:25:22.000 You guys, there were bureaucrats that were spying on the president, leaking conversations, misrepresenting conversations.
00:25:29.000 And it was a bureaucracy that was at war with the presidency.
00:25:34.000 Can you talk about some of the micro stuff, James?
00:25:37.000 The one-off comments, the Donald Trump will not last forever, the gay pride flags in the State Department, the BLM, you know, kind of pseudo-religious ceremonies through the bureaucracy.
00:25:49.000 Just talk about the stuff that doesn't necessarily always get the headlines, but just the aura, the vibe, the attitude of what it was like to deal with a bureaucracy that was 99% against the president.
00:25:59.000 The biggest problem is once you get in there, there is a sprawling White House bureaucracy.
00:26:05.000 People think that you just get into the White House and it's the president and a few of his top aides.
00:26:10.000 No, there's almost a thousand career permanent bureaucrats that work there, including the National Security Council staff.
00:26:18.000 Who leaked the Ukraine call?
00:26:20.000 It was the people on the National Security Council staff that were permanent bureaucrats.
00:26:24.000 People like Vinman.
00:26:25.000 They are literally walking around the halls of the White House.
00:26:30.000 The next president that gets in needs to expel the permanent bureaucrats from the White House.
00:26:35.000 Over time, they have literally taken up the White House office space and are basically spying on the president.
00:26:42.000 And even worse than that, they represent themselves as the presidency.
00:26:47.000 They go to the agencies and say, this is what the president wants.
00:26:50.000 I work at the White House when it's not what President Trump wanted at all.
00:26:55.000 So they almost have usurped the president's authority because of their physical location in the White House.
00:27:02.000 By the way, I visited the EEOC probably 80 to 100 times.
00:27:10.000 I saw Vinman.
00:27:11.000 I saw these people.
00:27:13.000 They walked around with free reign in the White House and doing whatever they want.
00:27:18.000 And there's no better example of the government versus the president than COVID.
00:27:24.000 That's where it really all came together, where Donald Trump's instincts were right.
00:27:27.000 He said, well, why not early treatments?
00:27:29.000 Why not this lockdown thing?
00:27:29.000 Nope.
00:27:30.000 Nope.
00:27:31.000 So, James, let's now talk about, and we only have a couple minutes in this segment because I think we've built out the problem.
00:27:37.000 What then can be done?
00:27:39.000 How do you potentially marshal control or command of a multi-million person bureaucracy with maybe 3,000 appointed positions?
00:27:50.000 Is it possible?
00:27:51.000 Yes, it is possible.
00:27:53.000 You have to delegate less and follow up more.
00:27:56.000 It could be solved very quickly.
00:27:58.000 Imagine if President Trump visited some of these agencies.
00:28:02.000 Let's say he visited the State Department and said, where are we on that order that I told you to enact about a month ago?
00:28:10.000 The Secretary of State will say, oh, it's stuck in this bureau within my department.
00:28:14.000 Okay, let's bring that bureaucrat up right now and let's see what the holdup is.
00:28:19.000 Oh, he's refusing to do it.
00:28:22.000 He's fired and he's marched out of the building right there.
00:28:22.000 He's gone.
00:28:25.000 You need to be able to walk into these agencies like Vice President Dick Cheney actually did when he was really running the federal government in the Bush administration.
00:28:36.000 So we need to get much more hands-on.
00:28:39.000 For example, the president can appoint an attorney general that actually treats the FBI as subordinate.
00:28:46.000 The attorney general can walk across the street to the FBI and he can say, let's review the cases that you're working on.
00:28:53.000 If there's a weird case where they're planning to entrap right-wingers to kidnap a Democrat governor, like they did in trapping people to kidnap Gretchen Whitmer, the Attorney General can say, that case is closed and who came up with that case?
00:29:08.000 They're gone.
00:29:09.000 March them out of the building right now.
00:29:11.000 If you do things like that, the culture will change very quickly.
00:29:16.000 That is such a smart point, James.
00:29:17.000 And by the way, the most successful CEOs right now, Elon Musk and others, they use the pop-in as a way to keep their middle management accountable.
00:29:27.000 The pop-in has been proven to be, it's against the textbook, by the way.
00:29:31.000 The textbook says don't do it because that, but that was like old 1960s.
00:29:36.000 The pop, we're going to talk about this.
00:29:37.000 It's brilliant.
00:29:38.000 Imagine if Donald Trump just was like, let's just go over to HUD and you just show up and you just start walking the halls and be like, how's this and how's this?
00:29:45.000 And how's this?
00:29:46.000 You just take over the conference room.
00:29:48.000 This is one of the most important discussions happening in America right now.
00:29:52.000 And I'm glad we're finally having it.
00:29:55.000 Hey, Charlie Kirk here.
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00:31:09.000 So James, such a great point.
00:31:10.000 So let's say Donald Trump wins another term.
00:31:12.000 Let's talk about the pop-in.
00:31:13.000 This is such a fascinating point.
00:31:15.000 You're trying to say that Donald Trump should just, in an unannounced way, maybe 20-minute heads up, pop in the Department of Interior, IRS, Treasury, HUD, you know, CIA, FBI, and just say, how's it going?
00:31:27.000 Have his vice president do that, chief of staff.
00:31:30.000 How much did that happen, if at all, during the first Trump presidency?
00:31:33.000 That didn't happen during the first Trump presidency.
00:31:36.000 He visited the CIA very early on in his presidency, and I don't think he went back.
00:31:42.000 For example, Dick Cheney, when he was vice president, visited the Pentagon and the CIA so often that he had his own office set up there.
00:31:52.000 He knew that you have to give these bureaucrats orders face-to-face if you want to get things done.
00:31:58.000 If they will not refuse a face-to-face order because they know then that you have cause to fire them, they prefer to stall.
00:32:06.000 They prefer to hide behind emails.
00:32:08.000 They prefer to work in the shadows.
00:32:10.000 If you confront them, it's much harder for them to resist you.
00:32:14.000 And you start digging in and figuring out where the bodies are buried.
00:32:19.000 I kind of have chills thinking about this.
00:32:21.000 So here you have Dick Cheney, who again, not my favorite person, but I have mad respect for him on what he was able to do.
00:32:28.000 He understood political power and he used it.
00:32:30.000 You wonder why there's a permanent war machine at the Pentagon?
00:32:33.000 You wonder why there's a permanent war machine at the CIA?
00:32:35.000 You wonder who was behind Christopher Steele?
00:32:38.000 18 years ago, Richard Cheney, vice president of the United States, was sitting at a conference table desk saying, staff here, get him, fire that guy.
00:32:48.000 He was calling shots.
00:32:50.000 And this is something for Trump term 2.0.
00:32:53.000 And James, personnel is policy.
00:32:56.000 This is something we're going to build out.
00:32:57.000 So how many people does it take to reassume control of the government?
00:33:02.000 30, 300, 3,000?
00:33:05.000 And if so, do we have a blue book to actually put people in those spots?
00:33:11.000 It takes about 3,000 to 4,000, but the most important are the 30 some-odd agency heads that the president appoints.
00:33:19.000 These are his cabinet members.
00:33:20.000 These are his agency heads.
00:33:22.000 These people need to be people that have proven they can handle media pressure.
00:33:28.000 The only way to not get criticized in Washington is to do nothing.
00:33:32.000 When these agency heads start to enact conservative policy, they are going to face enormous media pressure.
00:33:38.000 That's why a lot of them turned on President Trump because they were too weak and they couldn't resist the pressure.
00:33:45.000 You need people that have proven that they can handle the heat.
00:33:49.000 So look for people that are already in the political arena.
00:33:52.000 You might think some CEO who's a genius is going to be able to step into Washington and handle that heat.
00:33:58.000 Yeah, like Rex Tillerson.
00:34:00.000 What a disaster that was.
00:34:01.000 Look at Rex Tillerson, right?
00:34:02.000 I mean, he did a good job running ExxonMobil.
00:34:04.000 He's a disaster at the head of the State Department.
00:34:06.000 So James, I failed to get some, you know, what I, stone-cold killer turning point lieutenants fire in the White House down on a rival.
00:34:13.000 So what's going to be different this time?
00:34:14.000 Let's say Trump wins.
00:34:15.000 I know there's this Heritage 2025, which I think I'm on the board of or advisory thing, totally supportive of.
00:34:20.000 What's going to be different?
00:34:21.000 Is it going to be this full force?
00:34:23.000 I mean, the media is going to say, oh, you have loyalty tests.
00:34:25.000 Yeah, like you guys don't.
00:34:26.000 Yeah, you know, actually being loyal to the president, like what, you know, what, what a, what a concept.
00:34:31.000 What is the litmus test, though, James?
00:34:33.000 How do we know a deep state agent from a stone-cold killer like John McIntyre, like James Bacon, and like Peter Navarro, like Lighthizer?
00:34:44.000 How do we know the difference between a killer and a pretender?
00:34:48.000 Final thoughts, James Bacon.
00:34:50.000 You have to look at their actions.
00:34:52.000 It's not just what they said.
00:34:54.000 Everyone knows how to say the pro-Trump, say the MAGA America First lie now.
00:34:59.000 That means nothing if you can't demonstrate it with your action.
00:35:03.000 The great thing that President Trump did is he exposed the swamp.
00:35:06.000 We now know how it works.
00:35:08.000 So we are ready.
00:35:09.000 We've discovered that personnel is the secret.
00:35:12.000 We ran the presidential personnel office.
00:35:14.000 We know where the key choke points in the bureaucracy are.
00:35:18.000 We're going to be much better prepared this time.
00:35:21.000 We also know who the all-stars were in the Trump administration.
00:35:24.000 It's people you've never heard of, but who got a lot of stuff done.
00:35:28.000 And we know the people who couldn't take the heat in the kitchen.
00:35:32.000 James, we're going to have you back on.
00:35:34.000 We need to have a more robust, deeper conversation on this.
00:35:37.000 And I think this is super, I mean, personnel is policy.
00:35:40.000 The great Morton Blackwell from Leadership Institute has been saying that for decades.
00:35:44.000 And boy, is he spot on.
00:35:46.000 And you have 3,000 positions.
00:35:49.000 If you even get 1,000 out of 3,000 that are loyal, that are ready to go fight, I think we're really onto something.
00:35:56.000 James Bacon, excellent commentary.
00:35:58.000 Thanks so much.
00:35:59.000 Thank you for having me.
00:36:01.000 Thanks so much for listening.
00:36:02.000 Everybody, email us your thoughts as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:36:06.000 Thank you so much for listening, and God bless.
00:36:12.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.