The Charlie Kirk Show - Is America No Longer Exceptional? with Curtis Yarvin

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, Tana Charlie Kirk Show.

00:00:01.000 Curtis Yarvin, boy, he has radical ideas.

00:00:04.000 I got to tell you, you should listen to this entire episode.

00:00:06.000 Super smart guy.

00:00:07.000 I agree with part of it.

00:00:09.000 Don't agree with all of it, but he articulates it really well.

00:00:12.000 Incredibly smart and very, very analytical.

00:00:16.000 Curtis Yarvin, email us as alwaysfreedom at charliekirk.com.

00:00:19.000 Become a member today at members.charlikirk.com.

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00:00:24.000 Email us as alwaysfreedom at charliekirk.com and get involved with turning pointusa at tpusa.com.

00:00:30.000 That is tpusa.com.

00:00:32.000 Curtis Yarvin joins us for quite a conversation and become a member today at members.charliekirk.com.

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00:00:39.000 Here we go.

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00:01:39.000 Last week, we had Christopher Ruffo on the program, and Christopher Ruffo launched a couple salvos against Curtis Yarvin that I thought was a little bit below the belt.

00:01:52.000 And I didn't feel equipped to necessarily involve myself.

00:01:56.000 I said, Blake, get Curtis on the show.

00:01:59.000 They had this viral debate on IM 1776, all about reform versus revolution.

00:02:09.000 And Curtis Yarvin joins us now.

00:02:11.000 Curtis, welcome back to the program.

00:02:13.000 Curtis is the writer of The Gray Mirror.

00:02:15.000 Curtis was on the program in person a couple weeks ago.

00:02:19.000 So, Curtis, kind of give us your observation, just like your analysis of your debate with Christopher Ruffo.

00:02:26.000 Well, first of all, I'd like to say I love Chris.

00:02:28.000 I think he's a great guy.

00:02:30.000 I think that, you know, as someone once said, loyalty is the most important political virtue and sort of the sense that Chris and I can disagree as effervescently as we do and still be, you know, very friendly and really consider ourselves allies is too strong a term because we're actually kind of doing different things.

00:02:52.000 But, you know, definitely that I can be friends with Chris, you know, friends, maybe that's a little too strong, but we're certainly not enemies and is really great.

00:03:04.000 And so, you know, but the difference between us is essentially that he thinks he is leading people into what is the promised land, but is actually a box canyon.

00:03:16.000 And I am leading them on a much longer, more difficult course to, you know, the real promised land.

00:03:24.000 I'm not to be a cult leader or anything, but that's essentially the difference.

00:03:28.000 And so I think that Chris is very well-intentioned, but it's ultimately reality which decides whether your plans have any chance of coming in any sense to fruition.

00:03:40.000 And if reality is right and you're wrong, you don't have the intent to be a sort of a grifter, but you are essentially a grifter.

00:03:50.000 That's an objective question.

00:03:51.000 It's not a question of intent.

00:03:53.000 And Chris's intent is, I repeat, absolutely the best.

00:03:56.000 And I love the like PR he generates.

00:03:58.000 Like, I love it, you know, to see when this, this or that, you know, bureaucratic hack is accused of falsifying their thesis.

00:04:06.000 It's like the kind of early stage dissident in the USSR who would be like, oh my God, state officials are corrupt.

00:04:12.000 Oh, my God, the whole green program in the Kharkov area has gone totally astray.

00:04:16.000 We must have, you know, Glasnos and Perestroika or something, something, something. 0.97

00:04:20.000 And it's like, yeah, I guess.

00:04:23.000 So let's take a step back here, Curtis.

00:04:24.000 I want to just, because our audience is not necessarily informed on every detail here, you guys had a debate.

00:04:30.000 What was the debate about?

00:04:32.000 And I want to roll this back.

00:04:32.000 All right.

00:04:34.000 I want to roll it back.

00:04:35.000 I want to compliment you, Curtis.

00:04:36.000 I thought you did very, very well.

00:04:37.000 And I do sympathize with, you know, Chris on, you know, the aspirational idea of a free society.

00:04:43.000 I thought you made some very good points of like, wait a second, you're not thinking radical enough.

00:04:48.000 Like, we're up against some huge forces.

00:04:49.000 So let's wind the tape back, walk our audience through what transpired.

00:04:54.000 Well, I think that Chris's views on the American Republic as we have it are essentially evolutionary.

00:05:03.000 I think he would say that politically this country was essentially on the right track.

00:05:11.000 The republic, you know, the regime, if you will, was essentially on the right track from its brilliant founding and the Declaration of Independence to about basically the, I think for most conservatives, the point where everything went wrong is the JFK assassination, actually.

00:05:30.000 Like they still sort of revere Kennedy and everyone before him in a kind of uniform and bipartisan way, apart from a few freaks, of course.

00:05:40.000 But, you know, then LBJ is definitely a lib and libs are bad.

00:05:45.000 And but if you're like, well, FDR was lib, they'd be like, you know, so there's a sense in which you basically see the kind of majestic history of the republic as being completely on track until basically the childhood of most living boomers.

00:06:04.000 And I would describe this as essentially sort of, it's certainly the view of the world that as I, you know, became a conservative, I mean, I cried over Walter Mondale losing the election in 1984.

00:06:15.000 I was very sad.

00:06:16.000 But, but, but the like he sees the world as being on the right track.

00:06:22.000 And I'm basically like, no, actually, just because you think the period from 1963 to now is basically a myth of the mainstream media and academic history and all of that, right?

00:06:36.000 You know, you're not questioning the reality of the whole period before it.

00:06:42.000 And you're basically using the fact that in this myth, the train is on the track the whole time to basically believe that the train was on the track the whole time.

00:06:52.000 Well, if myths were true, all the children's books about Obama you could buy in your local bookstore would also be totally true.

00:06:59.000 But some myths, though, Curtis, but some myths have an essence of truth and then a mythology grows around alongside of it.

00:07:06.000 So you would agree the first half of the 20th century, America was pretty awesome.

00:07:10.000 When did it start to go off track?

00:07:12.000 Or do you say, no, we went off track in the, you know, from the very beginning?

00:07:17.000 Like, when would you say that we really diverted from our primary course?

00:07:25.000 I don't know that I believe in the concept of a primary course at all, Charlie.

00:07:30.000 And that's sort of the problem is that there's this essentially, you know, providential and let's use some academic terminology, exceptional kind of theorizing about America.

00:07:44.000 And the thing is, in the past, American exceptionalism that sort of came out of our national traditions and so forth was sort of very plausible because America was such an exceptional nation.

00:07:55.000 There was always an alternative theory, which was that an exceptional nation, which was what was bound to result if you gave an exceptional group of people an exceptional country, an exceptional and largely empty country.

00:08:09.000 And when we look at basically, do you know what the full name of the nation to our south is, Charlie?

00:08:15.000 It's the United States of Mexico.

00:08:18.000 They didn't get their political ideas from anywhere else.

00:08:21.000 So they got them from here.

00:08:23.000 And, you know, maybe a little bit of European ideas.

00:08:27.000 But, you know, if these principles were the thing that made once made America great, we can certainly agree that it was great in the 1930s.

00:08:40.000 You know, if these were the principles that once made America great, then you would expect these principles to apply in different historical.

00:08:52.000 And the actual point is exactly right, which is it is people plus principles.

00:08:58.000 However, the principles are important because you can have great people like the people of Iran and really bad government and you get nothing, right? 0.98

00:09:06.000 So I think you would acknowledge, maybe not, that...

00:09:09.000 Yes, of course, of course, of course, you can have very bad government that will produce, you know, any people can be governed badly.

00:09:17.000 I think a better example might be the people of North Korea who I don't think are, you know, exactly.

00:09:23.000 Like, we don't need to go there.

00:09:24.000 And so you can have bad government.

00:09:24.000 Right.

00:09:28.000 But, you know, the question of what is good or bad government was a question that was considered long before the pilgrims landed that is rooted sort of deep in historical tradition.

00:09:40.000 And I essentially think that we need to basically abandon American exceptionalism entirely and treat ourselves as a normal part of history.

00:09:49.000 Because certainly, you know, if you looked at all the people who believed in American exceptionalism 100 years ago, and you basically told them that, you know, you said, okay, we're doing an experiment.

00:10:02.000 What would falsify the theory that America was this great and exceptional nation?

00:10:07.000 And I'm like, well, what about, you know, the country massively in debt, the street filled with trash and beggars, you know, robberies rampant in major cities, right?

00:10:16.000 You know, and they'd be like, okay, fine.

00:10:19.000 It doesn't work.

00:10:20.000 We thought it, we thought it worked.

00:10:21.000 It was just because we had this big empty country.

00:10:23.000 Just a coincidence.

00:10:25.000 Let's move on.

00:10:26.000 And so, you know, the thing is that in a way, there's a kind of optimism in Chris Ruffo because he's like, we don't need to move on.

00:10:34.000 We can make this work.

00:10:35.000 We can make this work.

00:10:36.000 And, you know, I think one of the most important concepts in political philosophy was developed about 130 years ago by the Italian political philosopher Gaetano Mosca.

00:10:47.000 And Mosca said, you know, in Anglo-American theology, we have the idea of like the consent of the governed.

00:10:53.000 And Musca rewords this in this sort of radically objective way.

00:10:59.000 He says every society has what he calls a political formula.

00:11:04.000 And the political formula is basically the reason that the people believe, that the people support whatever has power over them, because the minority, the ruling class will always rule over the ruled class, which is not to say that all governments are class rule.

00:11:20.000 But in any case, you know, the classic example of a political formula is the pharaoh is the son of the sun.

00:11:29.000 So basically, if you kill the pharaoh, the sun will go out, something, something.

00:11:33.000 Therefore, certain love and obey your pharaoh.

00:11:35.000 And these got sort of gradually more sophisticated until we sort of ended up with this 1930s political formula that essentially says the deep state is the voice of science, of scientific government.

00:11:47.000 And so We have an entire administration, an entire theory of government, which is not built around the idea that the pharaoh is the son of the sun, but around the basically crazy 1930s, equally crazy 1930s idea that you can put science in charge of the government or academia in charge of the government.

00:12:09.000 Yes.

00:12:10.000 And journalism in charge of the government.

00:12:12.000 That's where we are.

00:12:14.000 Okay, so basically, when you sort of think of like, this is where we are, and this is where we are in its fundamental and in a deeper and longer way that the USSR was where we are, where it is.

00:12:26.000 So when basically, you know, and over time, this system was originally staffed by amazingly competent, creative people, really startup quality people in DC in the 1930s.

00:12:39.000 It's run like a startup.

00:12:40.000 That's the reason why we look back at the 1930s and we see this like startup America.

00:12:46.000 It was.

00:12:46.000 That's how it worked, right?

00:12:48.000 It was the same thing.

00:12:49.000 And so amazing, amazing thing.

00:12:52.000 And over time, and I had some delusions, I would say, about the world.

00:12:56.000 I'm by no means an unqualified endorser of FDR and the New Deal, but these delusions over time kind of magnify and ossify and become like really stale and poisonous.

00:13:08.000 And the people in the system gets worse and the bureaucracy gets worse and worse.

00:13:13.000 And basically, you know, Criff Rufosky is like, you know, Christoph Rufosky is coming out as a dissident saying like the assistant farm commissioner in the Kharkov region, you know, plagiarized her dissertation.

00:13:25.000 I'm like, okay, yeah, but like the problem isn't that.

00:13:28.000 The problem is that we basically, except for a few charmed locations, like this country lives in an age of sh.

00:13:37.000 And like, except for a few charmed locations, this world lives in an age of basically decay.

00:13:44.000 And like, you know, except for like China, which is nowhere I'd like to live. 0.83

00:13:49.000 And so you're seeing this kind of rotting world and then you're hearing this like triumphant voice of like, we're winning because we fired the assistant farm commissioner, right?

00:14:00.000 You know, whereas when you see a real regime change, a real change in government, everything changes.

00:14:05.000 If you were doing, if you were in West Germany, in East Germany in 1985 and in the unified Germany in 1995, your life is completely different.

00:14:15.000 Everything you see is completely different, right?

00:14:18.000 And, you know, that's not as drastic as the regime change in Germany between 1944 and 1946.

00:14:25.000 The great thing about the Allied regime change in Germany in 1945 is that, to be quite frank, it was done by the Libs. 0.91

00:14:33.000 So in a sense, you might be able to say anything they did then.

00:14:40.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.

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00:15:43.000 Curtis, you made such a good point last time.

00:15:44.000 I want to emphasize that you mentioned it here too, which is in the 1930s, you had people of high character, high IQ, high ambition that were working in these bureaucracies.

00:15:53.000 You graduate from Harvard.

00:15:55.000 Here's a $30 million budget.

00:15:57.000 Go power the Tennessee Valley, right?

00:15:59.000 I mean, it was the best of America that went into the bureaucracies.

00:16:03.000 Now it's not the best of America.

00:16:05.000 Well, it's a terrible place to work.

00:16:08.000 I mean, it's just, it's a terrible place to work.

00:16:10.000 It's a terrible experience.

00:16:12.000 Like, there's still good people there.

00:16:14.000 You know, my dad worked in the deep state.

00:16:15.000 He was in the Foreign Service, you know, for his whole career after being a philosophy professor.

00:16:21.000 Like, this is a very, this is still, it's not what it was in the 80s in his time, but like it's still a very elite organization out there.

00:16:32.000 And I'll bet somebody out there from that organization is watching this and laughing.

00:16:36.000 And so, but like what you, what you're doing there is just like, it's like BS upon BS.

00:16:43.000 Nobody even knows why America has a foreign policy now.

00:16:47.000 Like, what are we even doing?

00:16:49.000 Right.

00:16:49.000 You know, just harvesting migrants and creating wars, as far as I can tell.

00:16:53.000 It's, it's like you can at least say, I disagree with a lot of FDR's foreign policy choices, but, you know, FDR wanted to conquer the world.

00:17:01.000 He could conquer the world.

00:17:02.000 He did conquer the world.

00:17:03.000 Like, you know, you can't really argue with a man for doing that, right?

00:17:06.000 You know, and what are these people even doing?

00:17:10.000 So it's this horrible bureaucratic working environment.

00:17:13.000 I think one thing that people really misunderstand when they look at DC is they see that it's shaped like a private company.

00:17:20.000 So they assume it must work like a private company.

00:17:23.000 Actually, in a private company, people give you a mission, something to do and some resources to get it done, and you get it done.

00:17:30.000 In DC, everyone in the system, up to the highest level, is following a process.

00:17:35.000 They're following a procedure.

00:17:37.000 They're supposed to be like scientists of public policy in a way.

00:17:40.000 And it just has degenerated into this like utterly hidebound bureaucracy.

00:17:45.000 And honestly, I'm not a libertarian.

00:17:47.000 Government is an important and necessary thing.

00:17:50.000 But if I had to create a government, would I start with these organs?

00:17:53.000 Absolutely not.

00:17:54.000 So what Rufo would say to that originally is, but like, we want to try to go back to course correct back to more of a founder's vision where it was left the states outside of the bureaucracies.

00:18:06.000 What is your response to that?

00:18:08.000 Not radical enough, wrong premise from the beginning.

00:18:11.000 Or do you say that you inevitably get those bureaucracies with the form the founders gave us?

00:18:18.000 Look, here's a simple example.

00:18:19.000 If you look at the country as it is, and many Europeans, I love reading historical accounts of European travelers, but many Europeans have a very simple question, which is, why do these United States have 50 separate motor vehicle administrations?

00:18:36.000 And, you know, the only possible answer to this question is not functional, but historical.

00:18:42.000 Now, if the states were truly the laboratories of democracy in this sense, and let's say there's kind of, there's a Florida style of driving, an Alabama style of driving, they're slightly different.

00:18:54.000 You know, people in Maine drive in a totally different way.

00:18:57.000 Southern states don't even need to think about salting the roads, right?

00:19:02.000 You can kind of justify this.

00:19:03.000 But if you were creating it from scratch, what the hell?

00:19:06.000 Like, no way.

00:19:07.000 Like, why would you do that?

00:19:09.000 Right.

00:19:10.000 And so there's sort of all of these things in this structure that were so important.

00:19:15.000 And why is that the case?

00:19:17.000 Why was that a case of the case originally?

00:19:19.000 Why did the all-wise founders come up with that?

00:19:21.000 Well, they lived in a world where the difference between Massachusetts and Virginia was like the difference was as great as like the difference between like, I don't know, Germany and Morocco today, right?

00:19:33.000 So, you know, of course, this couldn't be treated as a single country.

00:19:37.000 And, you know, and nor did anyone in the days of 76 really imagine it as a single country.

00:19:45.000 And in some ways, the strongest point that was made in 1861, which I'm sure, you know, may be a contentious issue among some of your watchers, there's a great essay by Charles Francis Adams Jr., who was like, well, the reality was that, no, constitutionally, it wasn't.

00:20:02.000 He's a northern writer.

00:20:04.000 He's like, no, it's true that the Constitution never envisioned like amalgamating the country into a nation and like coercing states that tried to leave.

00:20:12.000 On the other hand, it had become a nation.

00:20:15.000 And the thing is, however much it had become a nation by 1861, they made it a national government.

00:20:22.000 They kept these forms of the states.

00:20:25.000 But actually, my God, if you asked Silicon Valley to spin up a new national motor vehicle administration in three months, they would do that.

00:20:37.000 They could do that if you put enough money into Silicon Valley.

00:20:40.000 And your days of like insane DMV hassles would be over because the new DMV would be run like Tesla.

00:20:47.000 And I don't see why it shouldn't be run like Tesla or why it can't be run like Tesla.

00:20:51.000 Well, because we don't want it to be run like Google.

00:20:53.000 Great point.

00:20:54.000 Well, this really emphasizes the difference between an executive branch and an administrative branch.

00:21:03.000 What I always say is that we don't actually, the basic problem with DC is that we don't actually have an executive branch.

00:21:09.000 We have an administrative branch, which is essentially a creature of the legislative and the judicial branches.

00:21:16.000 It's actually the executive presides over it, largely in name only.

00:21:21.000 He still has a few responsibilities that are more than ceremonial.

00:21:25.000 Think about it.

00:21:25.000 Would the president spend a third of his day on photo ops if he was really the CEO of the country?

00:21:31.000 Intuitively, we all know that the president is not the CEO of the country, but we sort of like agreed to pretend in a very similar way that the Englishmen have agreed to pretend they have a king.

00:21:43.000 No, actually, you don't.

00:21:45.000 And sorry, Englishman.

00:21:47.000 And so when you look at what the administrative branch actually is, it runs, as I said earlier, on the basis of process.

00:21:56.000 There's a process for every, and everyone from the front line to like the National Security Council has a process for what they do.

00:22:04.000 Nothing is unstructured.

00:22:06.000 And there is a hierarchy, but the hierarchy is a hierarchy of what in computer science we call exception handling.

00:22:12.000 So if there's something that doesn't fit your process, you kick a pure boss.

00:22:16.000 Eventually, it ends up on the president's desk as a giant interagency conflict.

00:22:22.000 So reacting, you know, when we talk about what the president does, we say he makes decisions.

00:22:28.000 Okay, that's exactly what he's doing.

00:22:30.000 He's a purely reactive official.

00:22:32.000 And what are happening is exceptions that the bureaucracy can't handle are winding up on his desk and there's a vast torrent of them.

00:22:39.000 And the country would not be really substantively any different if the way he checked these boxes on his desk was to roll the dice.

00:22:46.000 And so actually, when you vote for the person who gets to sit on top of this, your attention is being disguised to the fact that from the fact that your democratic power has been essentially eliminated because the only election that people care about and the only election that even works, like the Congress, I mean, with its 98% encumbency rate, right?

00:23:10.000 The only election that actually works is the presidential election.

00:23:13.000 So if the president doesn't have any power, you've been systematically disempowered.

00:23:18.000 They didn't hack the voting machines that just cut the wires leading out of the voting machines.

00:23:22.000 And this was done before you were born.

00:23:24.000 So that's a very bitter pill, I think, for some patriotic Americans to swallow that they really have to choose their country above their government.

00:23:32.000 No, and I want to just zero in on this.

00:23:33.000 And I think this is one of your strongest points, that we actually do not have an executive branch.

00:23:38.000 We have some We do not have an executive branch.

00:23:40.000 Well, we might have an executive.

00:23:42.000 I guess there's an administrative state that calls itself an executive branch with like a ribbon-cutting pageantry placeholder that calls himself the president.

00:23:52.000 And when did that change?

00:23:54.000 You said post-FDR, but Nixon tried to get it back, did he not?

00:23:57.000 Nixon was.

00:23:59.000 Yes, yes.

00:24:00.000 So let me go through this.

00:24:02.000 Yes, it's not an executive branch.

00:24:04.000 You know, it's an administrative branch in very much the same sense that the snake that ate your sister is not your sister.

00:24:11.000 And however, about the same size, you know.

00:24:16.000 And the and this is again, so there are like, that's a difficult truth that because for a lot of time, you've been you're putting a lot of time humoring into humoring the snake on the assumption that she's your sister, right?

00:24:30.000 This has already cost you a lot.

00:24:32.000 There's a lot of sunk cost fallacy and like, you know, thermal lamps and so forth.

00:24:37.000 But, but the, you know, there are even more disturbing, difficult, and unpleasant truths underneath this one.

00:24:47.000 And the more difficult truth is that basically at the start of the 20th century, power was taken away from politicians by this class of sort of meritocratic oligarchs, by, you know, essentially, you know, by people like Charles Francis Adams, who I mentioned earlier, who were sort of American aristocrats educated on the continent.

00:25:11.000 And they were just embarrassed by American politicians.

00:25:14.000 They considered it ridiculous that New York City, one of the greatest cities on earth, should be in the hands of this corrupt Irish political machine, you know, Tammany Hall. 0.99

00:25:24.000 And so, you know, all around, you remember like the urban, like good government movements, the early, early progressives before it meant communist.

00:25:33.000 A progressive before 1930 does not necessarily mean communist.

00:25:37.000 And sorry to shock you with that.

00:25:40.000 And, you know, and then you have great progressives like Teddy Roosevelt, for instance, who is in, you know, would absolutely abhor the condition of the country today.

00:25:50.000 So basically, these kind of natural elites, you know, kind of surged forward and took over the government and they blended a hereditary elite with a selected elite.

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00:27:01.000 That's mypatriotsupply.com.

00:27:05.000 Curtis, please continue.

00:27:07.000 All right.

00:27:07.000 So where I left off, we're back in the first half, really the start of the 20th century, when you have these rising institutions, essentially the universities in the university class, which is America's like, you know, it's old enough that it has a hereditary elite.

00:27:24.000 It also learns this great trick of selecting really smart people with standardized tests.

00:27:30.000 So a lot of like very Jews from very humble classes join this system and it creates this. 0.98

00:27:36.000 Don't get me wrong, you know, the culture that's created is an Anglo culture, not a Jewish culture. 0.96

00:27:42.000 You know, the Jews who go to Yale start calling themselves Irving. 0.95

00:27:45.000 You know, the Jew, the WASPs at Yale don't call themselves Moisha, you know, but it creates this amazing, amazing meritocratic ruling class, amazing administrative class. 0.69

00:27:57.000 You know, the universities, despite all this sort of ridiculous race stuff, still, you know, select a very good crop of people.

00:28:05.000 And these were just very, very powerful systems and they created this oligarchical elite.

00:28:10.000 Meanwhile, the American Republic that Chris Ruffo so loves is like this dying corrupt thing.

00:28:17.000 It's like these politicians, you know, they're all, it's like, you know, if you look at sort of lib history of like the Gilded Age, as they call it, which is really the last period in which the country is really governed by elected politicians.

00:28:32.000 Like Lincoln is really in charge.

00:28:33.000 There's no deep state telling Lincoln what to do, right?

00:28:36.000 You know, and there isn't really also a deep state telling like McKinley what to do, but there's kind of starting to be.

00:28:43.000 So you see these sort of early wise men like L. Hugh Root, you know, and so that force.

00:28:48.000 And the truth, the really unpleasant truth is that why did oligarchy built beat democracy in America?

00:28:55.000 You know, why did this new class come to power over the elected politicians and cut the wires coming out from democracy?

00:29:02.000 And the answer is it was just stronger and better.

00:29:05.000 Like these people had 20 or 30 IQ points on the elected politicians.

00:29:09.000 They weren't corrupt at all.

00:29:11.000 They were like amazing people.

00:29:13.000 And so it was just natural that these amazing people would take over the system.

00:29:16.000 But that was then and this is now.

00:29:19.000 And so they created this.

00:29:20.000 Yeah.

00:29:21.000 Go on.

00:29:21.000 No, no, no.

00:29:22.000 Go on.

00:29:22.000 I want to get back to the Google question.

00:29:24.000 The Google question.

00:29:26.000 Why don't you hit that before we, because I've okay, so you basically said, here's the problem with creating a new executive branch.

00:29:35.000 First of all, or let me talk about creating a new executive branch and I'll get to the Google, the Google problem.

00:29:40.000 So an executive organization, like a startup, like any functional company, like any functional military, runs from the top down.

00:29:48.000 It runs on what the U.S. military calls mission orders.

00:29:51.000 Everyone at every rank at every level has a mission to perform, resources, people, and money to do it with, and they don't get micromanaged.

00:30:00.000 The whole point of like, whereas like the idea of using talking about micromanagement in the U.S. government, it's like talking about speeding at the Indy 500.

00:30:09.000 It's talking about speeding on the Elon Musk starship, right?

00:30:13.000 You know, everything is micromanagement there because, you know, there's this constant sort of concern for accountability pervading the whole thing, which again came in to get rid of the like corrupt, you know, politicians and their patronage jobs, which was the old system of the 1890s, right?

00:30:31.000 So, and by the way, one date that most of your viewers probably don't know that should is 1980, because in 1980, on the way out, the first act of like woke race warfare against the USG was taken.

00:30:45.000 President Carter, I think basically by suing himself, eliminated competitive examinations for the U.S. Civil Service.

00:30:52.000 Only the Foreign Service still has them.

00:30:54.000 So the whole bedrock basis of 20th century bureaucratic meritocracy is just being shredded up and thrown in the toilet by an expiring administration.

00:31:04.000 And then Reagan couldn't reverse it.

00:31:06.000 So much for that revolution.

00:31:08.000 Right.

00:31:08.000 So, so, you know, anyway, in any case, when you have an organization that runs by mission orders, it's actually run from the top down.

00:31:18.000 I would say, especially if the president is someone like Donald Trump, he should be more the chairman of the board than the CEO.

00:31:25.000 Yes.

00:31:25.000 But maybe he could choose Vivek, and Vivek could be the CEO.

00:31:30.000 I think it's a great idea.

00:31:32.000 He at least did the job.

00:31:34.000 But the thing is, when Vivek hires, I want to spend time on the Trump.

00:31:34.000 Right.

00:31:37.000 When Vivek hires the Google employees, when Vivek hires the Googlers who are all libs, it doesn't matter because basically, if it's executive, it's run from the top down.

00:31:50.000 Nobody gets to run the company from the bottom up.

00:31:53.000 Nobody gets to send policy from the front lines.

00:31:56.000 Personnel is no longer policy in an executive organization.

00:32:01.000 And that means that a new regime can tap into the full administrative talent of this country, even though it's 85% lib.

00:32:10.000 Okay, so let's, that's a great segue.

00:32:14.000 Donald Trump becomes president.

00:32:15.000 He's chairman of the board, or Vivek does.

00:32:17.000 You're saying that this is, is it possible to use the current oligarchy for good purposes?

00:32:22.000 Is that your argument?

00:32:23.000 That this actually.

00:32:24.000 No, no, it's absolutely, it's like if you are actually trying to do anything serious in Washington, you realize quickly that there's a, you know, first of all, you know, the concern I have with the Trump administration is essentially, if you look at Donald Trump, you notice one fact which all Americans can agree on.

00:32:51.000 He is, if elected, he is not eligible for re-election.

00:32:56.000 What incentives will that place on Donald Trump?

00:33:00.000 Actually, just this week, we saw that Donald helped organize the new Ukraine bill.

00:33:09.000 I think that that, I don't know who, you know, the Trump office is a complicated place.

00:33:17.000 I don't know which faction that came out of.

00:33:19.000 There are apparently many factions. 0.96

00:33:22.000 You know, I mean, I thought Trump did good things and bad things like many people in this ridiculous job. 0.66

00:33:28.000 But the incentives on Trump to basically conform and become a rhino were essentially are essentially magnified at this point.

00:33:42.000 And so when we look at whether he can cut against the grain or back toward the grain, thus basically, as did Nixon and Reagan, legitimizing and basically making bipartisan many things that had previously been liberal and even extreme liberal causes, that will be the incentive on him.

00:34:05.000 And at that point, knowing that incentive objectively, any predictions for his regime, any regime, for his administration, have to rely on his personal honor and honesty.

00:34:19.000 And I'm like, well, let's then detrumify the conversation, just say personalization.

00:34:25.000 Let's detrumify the conversation.

00:34:28.000 Vivek, Vivek.

00:34:29.000 Or President Day or President Vivek.

00:34:31.000 You have some creative ideas.

00:34:33.000 We didn't get to this the last time, which is Curtis's ideas for electrifying the executive branch in the best possible way of trying to invigorate the country.

00:34:33.000 Let's go with.

00:34:42.000 What ideas, policy things, what can be done, if anything?

00:34:47.000 So let's say President Vivek, to make this practical, let's say Donald Trump achieves a mighty victory and then passes away sadly, or even is assassinated by a deranged animal rights activist, which would be very sad.

00:35:04.000 And because he truly is a great man.

00:35:08.000 And we would have a president Vivek.

00:35:11.000 And what would Vivek do?

00:35:13.000 Well, Vivek would essentially be in a position, he needs to essentially assume the mandate that essentially is roughly the same mandate that FDR assumed in 1933.

00:35:29.000 I do a fun, dramatic reading of the last 10 paragraphs of that speech.

00:35:33.000 It's a great speech.

00:35:34.000 And he basically demands the power of a general resisting an enemy invasion.

00:35:39.000 I think Vivek has to go a little farther than that.

00:35:42.000 I think he has to assume essentially the powers of allied military administration in Germany.

00:35:47.000 I think that's the closest historical connection.

00:35:51.000 And the way to essentially, you know, and you're basically your first thought of like, wow, that's roughly 100,000 times more power than the president currently has.

00:36:04.000 And what you have to realize when you think that is this is true, but also the political will on your side is much, much weaker.

00:36:13.000 The people didn't have the political will to keep ruling.

00:36:16.000 That's why they lost control to the bureaucrats.

00:36:19.000 They actually just didn't care enough. 0.71

00:36:21.000 They're like a weak king.

00:36:23.000 And that's a really sad and bitter truth, but there are not enough people who care enough to keep America a democracy.

00:36:32.000 Therefore, America has to evolve in a different direction.

00:36:36.000 I don't make the rules.

00:36:37.000 In any case, President Vivek comes in and he's basically like, okay, his first task is actually to perform what they call in South American Otoku.

00:36:51.000 So like President Fujimori in Peru, for example.

00:36:55.000 Or FDR in 1933 comes close to this, not quite there, but he essentially, you know, he was sort of stopped in the 30s by the Supreme Court close to that.

00:37:09.000 And so, okay, you're essentially, when you do that, you're essentially treating Washington the way the bankruptcy reorganizer treated the ruins of FTX.

00:37:20.000 Okay, the idea of like anyone in previous management having any control over this thing is as ridiculous as putting Sam Bankman Fried back in charge of FTX.

00:37:31.000 On the other hand, it's this gigantic, enormous thing with tons of money and assets and employees, and it's like 10,000 times bigger than FTX.

00:37:40.000 So you're basically in the position of a bankruptcy administrator, or, you know, if you prefer, FDR said the enemy, the general resisting an enemy invasion.

00:37:50.000 I would say the general of an enemy invasion.

00:37:53.000 So basically, that's the level of power he needs.

00:37:56.000 So you said something about Germany.

00:37:57.000 I just want to make sure I'm clear.

00:37:59.000 What do you mean by that?

00:38:01.000 I mean the allied, I mean the denazification of Germany. 0.93

00:38:03.000 Okay, that's what I thought.

00:38:04.000 See, that's an excellent word sitting right there, denazification.

00:38:08.000 I hate the word woke, but we can easily go from denazification to de-wokeification.

00:38:14.000 I think it's a good start.

00:38:15.000 And what you're saying is the, you know, this is an Eisenhower type.

00:38:19.000 I am in charge of the Supreme Allied Command, right?

00:38:22.000 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:38:23.000 It was done by, it was Lucius Clay was in charge in Germany, actually.

00:38:27.000 It was done at a lower level.

00:38:29.000 Really, if I had to choose, I think the occupation of Germany had some excessive rancor in it.

00:38:36.000 I would choose MacArthur's operation in Japan.

00:38:39.000 But once again, there's nothing left of Imperial Japan, right?

00:38:42.000 And so, for example, you know, in the fall of 1945 in Germany, kids are going to school.

00:38:51.000 Are they learning from Nazi textbooks? 0.50

00:38:53.000 No, they are not, because those people work hard and they could get that job done in the summer.

00:38:59.000 Children are going to school and it is no longer Nazi school.

00:39:03.000 We have to, okay, I've never heard anyone say denazification.

00:39:07.000 That's what we have to do. 0.99

00:39:08.000 We have to purge out this entire wasteland of crap. 0.99

00:39:11.000 Is that correct? 1.00

00:39:13.000 Yeah.

00:39:13.000 It's a, it's the end.

00:39:15.000 It's the complete end of an era. 0.99

00:39:17.000 And the thing is, and here's the thing about like, especially all this insane, like race crap. 0.99

00:39:21.000 Right. 0.98

00:39:23.000 In the spring of 1945, in January, and New Year's Day, 1945, everyone in Germany is Nazi. 0.70

00:39:30.000 They're not just pretending to be Nazis.

00:39:32.000 Oh, no.

00:39:32.000 After enough of that time, they generally are Nazis.

00:39:36.000 And like, and even if they're anti-Nazis, they actually have a lot of Nazi ideas in their heads.

00:39:42.000 And that's how powerful modern propaganda is.

00:39:45.000 And it was relatively weak by our standards.

00:39:51.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.

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00:40:55.000 Policy.

00:40:57.000 What can a President A or President Vivek or whatever sign an executive order?

00:41:01.000 Are you talking about just we need to purge entire cabinets?

00:41:05.000 We need to remove the entire infrastructure that exists.

00:41:09.000 How would you lead us forward?

00:41:11.000 What is the main thing?

00:41:11.000 No, it's much stronger than that.

00:41:14.000 Because essentially, when you're erasing, remember I said that, you know, if you read, one of the great things about the Constitution is that it doesn't specify the precedence of the branches.

00:41:26.000 And so in Marbury versus Madison, as every American high school student knows, the Supreme Court just kind of seizes command.

00:41:34.000 And it's Marbury versus Madison is a coup.

00:41:37.000 In fact, the Constitution itself is a coup, right?

00:41:39.000 Any change in regime, the Articles of Confederation never abolished themselves, right?

00:41:45.000 And they're, you know, and so what you're essentially doing, what the new president is doing in terms of the Constitution, because as FDR says in his first inaugural, that's kind of the genius of the Constitution is that it leaves things unspecified and that allows for change.

00:42:05.000 Actually, each of the three branches has been supreme during the history of the U.S. because there's a brief period when the country was run by Thaddeus Stevens out of the Senate.

00:42:18.000 And so what you're doing has to be understood within that framework.

00:42:24.000 And within that framework, what you're saying is the power of the president has been usurped by the other two branches and has essentially been negated.

00:42:36.000 And more than that, the only way to redeem this wrong, this essentially like sort of crime of like stealing democracy while everyone still believes in it, which is just an incredible freaking thing to do, to be honest, and might be excusable if you're doing it well.

00:42:53.000 Might have been excusable when it was being done well, but now that is no longer being done well.

00:42:57.000 It stinks from end to end.

00:42:59.000 And what you're saying is that in order to replace it, you can't replace it by making the branches equal in some sense.

00:43:07.000 That just doesn't work.

00:43:09.000 You know, you actually have to say, no, what we call law is itself a mistake, because what the executive branch does, the whole process, the whole fabric of the deep state is absolutely compelled by law.

00:43:23.000 And where it's not compelled by law, it's compelled by courts.

00:43:26.000 Those are the other two branches.

00:43:29.000 If anyone can imagine a way of restoring a balance between these branches from the present supremacy of the legislative and judicial branches, I simply cannot imagine it as a real thing in any way on this earth.

00:43:46.000 What I can imagine is restoring this balance by reserving absolute power to the chief executive.

00:43:54.000 So in order to remedy this sort of great imbalance or this usurpation of the legislative and judicial branches over the executive branch, which has become the Democratic branch with a small D and thus has been rendered utterly toothless in the sense that the president himself has power over the government,

00:44:20.000 the only remedy for this wrong is to put the president entirely in charge of the government.

00:44:29.000 And that essentially means that the executive branch, far from being checked and balanced in a way that does not work and has left the executive branch not checked and balanced, but simply hogtied and held a hostage, is to render the executive branch completely unilateral.

00:44:50.000 And when I talk about a completely unilateral presidency, I mean a president, President Vivek, let's say, let's hang this on poor Vivek.

00:45:00.000 A president Vivek who in his inauguration speech declares a state of emergency.

00:45:08.000 By the end of the day, he has unilateral control over both the security system and the financial system.

00:45:17.000 He can print his own money at the Fed.

00:45:20.000 He can issue orders to local police.

00:45:23.000 He, of course, commands as his constitutional right, the military.

00:45:28.000 By next Tuesday, every cop in the country is wearing a red armband, which shows that he is under the direct command of the president.

00:45:38.000 And so, of course, not only does the president control the.

00:45:44.000 You're talking about nationalizing the U.S. police force?

00:45:47.000 Yes, absolutely.

00:45:48.000 Absolutely.

00:45:48.000 As it's done, that's done in a state of, and basically the reason you do this, the reason you do this is very, very simple is that if you don't, you either get a complete fizzle or a civil war.

00:46:03.000 So you're basically saying, for example, to Boston, okay, Boston, we know you voted for Biden.

00:46:09.000 Actually, Vivek is the president.

00:46:12.000 Because otherwise, Boston will basically be like, no, we are the real republic.

00:46:17.000 We're obeying the law.

00:46:18.000 And all of those Boston cops who probably all voted for Trump will be basically obeying orders, trying to set up a competing government.

00:46:29.000 And essentially, if you do anything more interesting, like all of the latitude for any course between that course and the course of just being another rhino cuck is vanishing.

00:46:44.000 It basically doesn't exist.

00:46:45.000 Do you have to pretend it exists is kind of a grift.

00:46:48.000 So Curtis, I don't want to get into a debate.

00:46:51.000 I don't think I agree with that, but I want to ask you a question.

00:46:53.000 No, it's okay.

00:46:54.000 No, it's great.

00:46:55.000 Do you have any concern that that sort of power will just obviously be abused and you get a really bad leader and all checks and balances are gone and you have people goose-stepping?

00:47:07.000 You're swimming, if you're Leonardo DiCaprio and you're swimming in the icy wreckage of the Titanic and a lifeboat comes by to pick you up.

00:47:19.000 Is it possible that the lifeboat could sink?

00:47:22.000 Yes, it's very possible that the lifeboat could sink.

00:47:24.000 Lifeboats sink all the time.

00:47:25.000 This one is probably damaged by the iceberg.

00:47:28.000 Okay, fine.

00:47:29.000 So, yes, it's dangerous.

00:47:31.000 Where we are is not dangerous.

00:47:33.000 It is that, you know, it is actually a descent into the third world is certain.

00:47:39.000 And I want to leave like you guys, I know time is limited.

00:47:43.000 I sort of want to respond to Rufo's myth and your implicit myth of a nation on course.

00:47:50.000 Oh, I don't know if I'm going to be a course.

00:47:51.000 I am attached to the myth, though.

00:47:52.000 I agree.

00:47:53.000 And a nation with a course.

00:47:55.000 I acknowledge.

00:47:57.000 A nation, an exceptional nation, which has a providential course, this piece of American history that's really dates to the 17th century and the Puritans.

00:48:08.000 But the 17th century and the Puritans and basically every kind of generation before the modern one were also educated in the studies of antiquity.

00:48:16.000 And they also had another model in mind, which is the rise and fall of Rome.

00:48:24.000 And so when you look at the rise and fall of Rome, and of course, LARPing the Roman Republic was something the founders all did.

00:48:32.000 And they were all confident that by doing it right, they could prevent the decline of their civilization, which was very similar in some ways to the Roman Republic with its very strong and virtuous aristocracy.

00:48:46.000 They could prevent the decline of their society into the society of the Roman Empire.

00:48:52.000 And they would immediately recognize our society as resembling that of the Roman Empire.

00:48:59.000 But Curtis, you must acknowledge that the attachment to a free society that once existed that I have is admirable.

00:49:11.000 And that that's a thing that lets place to our higher parts.

00:49:17.000 And when people hear, just to be perfectly honest with you, because I have great respect, you know, we have police officers with red armbands, that terrifies people.

00:49:27.000 It terrifies people.

00:49:29.000 And the thing is, the fact that it terrifies people should basically, remember I spoke of political formulas earlier.

00:49:37.000 I would basically say that anything that leads you to be terrified of any replacement of the regime is a political formula.

00:49:47.000 And it is a way of saying, you know, and so, for example, Rufo really thinks he's an opponent of the powers that be.

00:49:56.000 Actually, what he's saying is tremendously supportive of the powers that be because he's saying without any evidence at all that these institutions can change in a way that makes them work, which is like saying, like, you know, every marriage has a formula too.

00:50:10.000 It's like saying my like crack smoking triple amputee wife could stop smoking crack and get her arms and legs back, right? 0.99

00:50:17.000 Okay, sure, maybe, right?

00:50:18.000 But, you know, like medical science done great things, right?

00:50:22.000 But like, I don't see a realistic way to go from basically, I love Chris, but this kind of strategy of media hits, right, to actually, you know, performing this kind of serious operation.

00:50:37.000 Moreover, when I basically think about how to perform this kind of serious operation, yes, it ends with all the cops wearing red armbands.

00:50:46.000 And the, you know, even worse, it might be all the cops who support Trump are the only ones who wear red armbands, right?

00:50:52.000 And the thing is that if you move very smoothly and decisively along that path and you skip straight to a winning strategy, you escalate before your opponent escalates.

00:51:08.000 And it is always the mistake of basically conservatives that because they think there is a course and because they think they are on the right course, they escalate basically.

00:51:21.000 much too slowly and they wind up doing half measures which either don't work or actually cause the explosion that they're afraid of.

00:51:29.000 Whereas if you're actually worried about this, you know, sort of solution going wrong, sure, it's surgery in a way.

00:51:37.000 Surgery can go wrong.

00:51:38.000 Surgery should also be completely nonviolent.

00:51:42.000 And if it's done...

00:51:43.000 Well, just to interrupt, though, but we have to make sure we're operating on the right organ and using general anesthesia, right?

00:51:49.000 Because I think you would acknowledge we, some of these ideas you're proposing are radical.

00:51:54.000 Some are really interesting that I support the red armband thing, not so much.

00:51:58.000 But is that it could always get worse.

00:52:02.000 You acknowledge that, right, Curtis?

00:52:04.000 It could get worse.

00:52:04.000 Yes, it could get worse.

00:52:07.000 We're still having a dialogue, right?

00:52:08.000 We're built, you know, we still have.

00:52:10.000 So, yeah, I would say, you know, again, let's go back to this knowledge of like a predefined course or destiny of history.

00:52:18.000 It's if you're actually worried about this going wrong, think about how to do it right.

00:52:26.000 And actually, what you think about when you think about how to do it right is you realize that you're creating something that's much more like the fall of East Germany.

00:52:41.000 It's a completely smooth and peaceful collapse.

00:52:45.000 The thing is, the way to really do this badly is to basically be forced into it without a plan.

00:52:51.000 And what will happen, supposing Donald Trump doesn't take the direction of rhinoing out, which he gets elected, he doesn't rhino out, which is absolutely his incentive to do so.

00:53:03.000 He'll grow in office.

00:53:04.000 He'll become an adult.

00:53:06.000 He'll be like a respected, if eccentric, you know, he'll just basically sign whatever's put in front of him.

00:53:11.000 That's what Arnold Schwarzenegger did when he was the governor of California, right?

00:53:16.000 And if he doesn't take that direction, if he's just like, no, actually, this is my last chance to do something real on earth, then like I'm going to take a different direction.

00:53:32.000 And hang on to something urgent.

00:53:36.000 I'm going to take a different direction.

00:53:38.000 And I'm going to actually go against the deep state.

00:53:43.000 And what he gets going to find when he tries to go against the deep state or at least following it, or at least follow, is that it's going to be revved up to attack him in a way that makes his previous term look like George W. Bush's honeymoon with the press, which itself was shocking to even people who remember the Reagan administration.

00:54:05.000 And he's going to be met with this incredible full court press of lawfare.

00:54:12.000 And this regime has already discarded all standards of law when it comes to lawfare.

00:54:20.000 The stuff that's being done is just absolutely ridiculous cargo cult law worthy of Liberia. 1.00

00:54:28.000 This is the way they would prosecute the opposition presidential candidate in Liberia.

00:54:34.000 Well, and just so everyone knows, as we close it out, Liberia has a similar constitution, literally an American flag.

00:54:40.000 Their capital is Monrovia.

00:54:41.000 We founded Liberia.

00:54:44.000 Yeah.

00:54:44.000 And look at the place now.

00:54:47.000 And now it's run by our State Department.

00:54:49.000 And look at it now.

00:54:50.000 Right.

00:54:50.000 And so you're basically looking at this situation where he just has to keep doubling.

00:54:59.000 His only remedy in the face of this attack is to keep doubling down or just completely cave.

00:55:04.000 Moreover, he doesn't have any kind of roadmap, any kind of plan.

00:55:09.000 He has no idea what to do if he needs to keep doubling down.

00:55:13.000 And if he actually, the regime was so scared in November 1916, 2016, you know, they really thought that he cared as much about power as they did.

00:55:24.000 And they knew that they had no defenses and he could just drive right over them.

00:55:28.000 And he didn't.

00:55:29.000 And this time it would be a lot harder and it would really take a real plan.

00:55:34.000 But the thing is, the idea that there's anything between a real plan or just cucking is like steadily becoming completely inadmissible.

00:55:44.000 And so, yeah, it's time to think in terms of police officers with armbands because you know what?

00:55:49.000 I'd rather have police officers with armbands rather than police officers shooting each other.

00:55:55.000 Curtis Jarvis.

00:55:56.000 And so, everybody, we got to run.

00:55:58.000 I don't see it that way, but I agreed with a lot of what you said, Curtis.

00:56:01.000 And you always, you bring your argument super well, always interesting, very fascinating.

00:56:05.000 Curtis, thanks so much.

00:56:06.000 Thank you so much, Charlie.

00:56:07.000 Bye.

00:56:10.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:56:12.000 Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:56:14.000 Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.

00:56:18.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - April 26, 2024

Is America No Longer Exceptional? with Curtis Yarvin

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