00:01:08.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
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00:02:48.000Okay, I'm actually really curious what you think about this, Charlie.
00:02:51.000I feel like left and right has become kind of meaningless because to me, being on the left used to mean you stand with the working class and with labor.
00:03:00.000And it definitely does not mean that anymore.
00:03:03.000My book, Second Class, is all about how the Democrats especially betrayed the working class and abandoned them, right?
00:03:09.000But on the other hand, you know, I feel like right used to mean going to war and being on the side of corporations and the rich.
00:03:16.000And it really doesn't mean that anymore.
00:03:19.000I think the most interesting thing that's happened is that there's a new center that's kind of opened up.
00:03:24.000And I think Trump is actually representing that center.
00:03:28.000I mean, to me, if you just look at his policies, he is kind of, he's the consensus president that President Biden said he was going to be and, you know, ended up instead representing the far left of his flank.
00:03:41.000So to me, I don't know, left versus right.
00:03:43.000I find it really hard to say like where I am anymore.
00:03:45.000I'm still nominally a leftist, but to me, that just means I stand with the working class.
00:03:50.000The American working class are it's just like the most amazing, tolerant, kind, warm, wonderful people, and um, have become the have turned us into the nation that we always wanted to be.
00:04:05.000And at the same time, the elites have betrayed them in such a big way as to take away their voice and their ability to have themselves represented in a democratic way.
00:04:12.000What do you think about this, like left versus right?
00:04:14.000Do you agree with me that these works don't really mean I think the spectrum is a little messed up.
00:04:18.000I mean, I would say the spectrum is helpful on certain issues.
00:04:22.000I mean, for example, like the pro-life, you know, pro-abortion issue, those have remained, you know, firearm ownership.
00:04:28.000But on neoliberalism, which you highlighted, which is far as representation of the muscular class, immigration policy, and adventurous foreign wars, the spectrum is completely irrelevant now.
00:04:40.000It is basically the spectrum is now: are you on team oligarchy or are you on team citizen?
00:04:55.000I would say that the political spectrum is still helpful on social issues or call it, you know, more cultural issues.
00:05:00.000But talk more about the core essence of your book, which is that the American working class, how elites betrayed America's working men and women.
00:05:13.000Who are these people that we throw around?
00:05:15.000Give us some examples of who do you consider the elites to be.
00:05:18.000Yeah, and this is something also I want to get into with you because it's very hard for me to talk about them without getting really angry because the betrayal runs so deep because they didn't just abandon labor and the working class.
00:05:33.000What they did was they abandoned them and then called them racist from their perch of immense privilege in order to mask this betrayal, right?
00:05:44.000And I find that so infuriating and unacceptable, but I'm going to try to say it in a kind of like more calm way.
00:05:51.000I think before Trump, you really had sort of elites on both sides running the country.
00:05:55.000So you had the Democratic elites who were catering to this kind of over-credentialed college-educated set.
00:06:03.000I mean, it's the people that we always rail against, right?
00:06:06.000They go to college, they get these super far-left ideas.
00:06:11.000Their worldview has replaced the difference between right versus wrong with some sort of powerful versus powerless binary.
00:06:20.000And anyone who they think has less power is inherently virtuous and is beyond reproach and criticism, right?
00:06:31.000And from that worldview, they have deemed, you know, anybody who disagrees with them to be in the oppressor class and evil.
00:06:39.000And that includes, of course, all white people, but also any black or Hispanic people who don't agree with them politically.
00:06:44.000And they use this ideology as a cudgel to silence political opposition.
00:06:50.000And the thing I write about in the book is they now, though, have not only immense power culturally, but they created an economy that rewards the knowledge industry in immense ways with the American dream, which they are now hoarding.
00:07:05.000And if you're working class, you're essentially second class.
00:07:08.000It's much harder to achieve the American dream.
00:07:10.000So that's kind of the elites on the left, the professional managerial class, they're often called, the top 10, 20% who are hoarding over 50% of the GDP, right?
00:07:20.000And then, but then on the right, before Trump, you had the kind of, I mean, the people, the people that Nikki Haley represented, right?
00:07:26.000The kind of like Chamber of Commerce, foreign war intervention, trickle-down economics, free trade version of the Republican Party that was very geared towards conservative elites, conservative rich people.
00:07:40.000And Trump really, he really took an axe to that in a big way.
00:07:44.000And I really think that there's no going back.
00:07:45.000I don't know how you see it in terms of the GOP, if they could return to the pre-Trump version, like the way that the donor class is desperate to do.
00:07:54.000Yeah, I tend to agree with a lot of that.
00:07:58.000And I would say, though, I wouldn't have necessary complaints if the American ruling class loved the country and they were making a bunch of money and gave it back.
00:08:07.000It's just, first of all, I think how they've made it is awfully unethical.
00:08:12.000Secondly, they have contempt for the people, for labor that actually allowed them to make massive amounts of money.
00:08:17.000And number three, they have no sort of attachment to the body politic or the nation that they currently live in.
00:08:23.000In fact, they just look at this as a colony, not as a country.
00:08:27.000One thing I do want you to emphasize, how dramatic has the oligarchy enriched themselves in the last four years, post-lockdowns, post-create, you know, cheap money.
00:09:32.000And there are now 10 million people who heeded his call.
00:09:35.000Mass migration is class warfare against the working class.
00:09:39.000It is an upward transfer of wealth because, of course, all of those people are competing in jobs that you don't need, you know, a command of the English language, jobs that require physical strength and brawn, working class jobs.
00:09:53.000And of course, when you add 10 million workers to an industry, you are going to lower the wages of the Americans right there.
00:10:02.000I mean, of course, spiritually, you're signaling to Americans that these jobs are worthless and meaningless and not worthy of respect and that you have contempt for them, right?
00:10:09.000But just beyond that, economically, it's just obvious supply and demand.
00:10:13.000You bring in 10 million people to compete with Americans.
00:10:16.000The first thing it does is drive down wages.
00:10:20.000And the reason I say an upward transfer of wealth is because you know what, Charlie?
00:10:24.000These people are all being employed by people who are in the professional managerial class, right?
00:10:28.000They are the consumers of illegal migrant labor.
00:10:33.000Upward transfer of wealth from the struggling working class to these people who sit there, these millionaires who sit there on MSNBC and tell you that the economy is doing great because their stock portfolio is doing great.
00:12:15.000And now they're basically in, you know, in free fall because if you compare it, you know, the rate of inflation and everything, people can't afford anything.
00:12:22.000But so 1971, what was unique about 1971 and why did things start to go south after that?
00:12:28.000The percentage of the country that was foreign born in 1971, that was not born here, was only 4%.
00:12:45.000The last time it was at 15% was in the Gilded Age, which is an age that is known in infamy for the income inequality and the fact that the elites were so rich and everybody else was so poor.
00:12:59.000We're literally replicating the kinds of inequality we had in the most unequal period in American history under the auspices of helping the indigent, but always of other countries, like you pointed out, Charlie.
00:13:42.000It comes straight out of the university system.
00:13:45.000It's baked into the worldview that they're taught at university.
00:13:50.000And I know this because I made the mistake of wasting seven years of my life and getting a PhD.
00:13:55.000So I can tell you that, you know, it's true, not everybody does that.
00:13:58.000It's true, not everybody goes to the humanities, but every person who goes to college in America has to take Composition 101.
00:14:05.000And Composition 101 is taught by an English PhD nincum poop like I used to be.
00:14:10.000And to get an English PhD, you have to take critical theory.
00:14:14.000So there's no way to get through the university system, certainly the elite university system, without being exposed to these ideas that America is an inherently and irredeemably racist country, a canard that I absolutely refuse to listen to as a Jewish person who this country has been so good to.
00:14:33.000It is an absolute canard, but you cannot get through the university system without being taught that America is fundamentally and irredeemably racist and will always remain so.
00:14:43.000But the thing is, why do they keep perpetuating this canard?
00:14:46.000It's because it is the perfect smokescreen for the class divide in this country, which is the truth, the real divide, which is that separates them, the elites pushing this nonsense about Israel about America being a white supremacy.
00:15:02.000And then that protects them from having the truth seen, which is that they are benefiting from the inequality that they pretend to be fighting.
00:15:13.000In fact, you literally took the word I was going to use, which is a theory that I have put out, and so is Tucker and many others, is that the wealthy, they deploy smokescreen grenades of the woke stuff, race, gender, as a distraction to confuse people while they plunder the American middle class, specifically younger Americans.
00:15:36.000That a lot of this is distraction cultural issues.
00:15:39.000I'm not saying they're insignificant, because I actually do think they're important.
00:15:42.000I do think it's important that we could define what a woman is.
00:15:44.000I think that's actually super important.
00:15:46.000But they want us talking about nothing except that when in reality, 80 or 90% of the country agrees that we're getting poor and you can't buy a home anymore.
00:15:55.000This is what Donald Trump fundamentally understands.
00:15:58.000His voters don't need him to tell them what values to have.
00:16:04.000They need him to create an economy in which they're not lying in bed at night wondering how they're going to keep a roof over the head of their children.
00:16:56.000And I would add a fourth to the neoliberal order is mass migration, adventurous foreign wars, and then stupid trade policies.
00:17:03.000And the fourth, I would say, is an unchecked fourth branch of government owned by the corporate class.
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00:18:20.000So Bacha, explain how you think about the government, which is larger than ever, bigger than ever, but seems to be doing the bidding far too often of corporate America.
00:19:13.000You know, and what you're pointing to actually answers a big mystery in American society today, which is why don't the Democrats just control the border, right?
00:19:22.000It's like such an obvious thing to do.
00:19:45.000On day one, he undid three executive actions that Trump had done that were 100% successful at controlling the border.
00:19:52.000And the reason is exactly what you allude to, Charlie, which is that there is a revolving door between democratic political campaigns, democratic politics, staffers of democratic politicians, and then the wide NGO leftist complex that feeds into all of these positions, that writes all of the white papers, that funds the vast majority of this stuff.
00:20:17.000And the Democrats are truly beholden to them.
00:20:20.000And indeed, it is so funny and ironic that they say that Trump is a threat to democracy when Trump represents literally turning his back on the donor class in order to represent voters, right?
00:20:31.000Like the most democratic thing you can do.
00:20:34.000And of course, they're jealous of that because they could never do that.
00:20:36.000Joe Biden cannot turn his back on this vast NGO complex because to do so would be to imperil the thing that funds the entire Democratic apparatus.
00:20:48.000So I think you're totally right about that.
00:20:50.000So as you have composed and published the book, what have you learned about self-described conservatives?
00:20:57.000I'll use that term that has surprised you?
00:21:00.000You go on a lot of our shows, you spend the time around a lot of us.
00:21:07.000It's so funny because I remember I used to be woke.
00:21:11.000I used to have the Trump derangement syndrome.
00:21:13.000And I remember when I first started to see things differently, it was like early in the Trump years and I was doing a lot of reporting in the South.
00:21:20.000And I was like, wait a minute, these people are not racist.
00:21:29.000You know, I think the funniest thing I've learned, the most surprising thing is that I think it's really the way I would put it is the right is the center.
00:21:39.000Like the people who used to be considered like right wing now often find themselves taking positions that represent the vast majority of Americans.
00:22:13.000You know, he's doing all this immigration control stuff.
00:22:16.000Here's an interesting one for you, Charlie.
00:22:18.000It used to be the Democrats who represented women's rights, right?
00:22:23.000Who are the side that protected women?
00:22:25.000And now they're the side representing transgender athletes, literally beating up women, you know, in sports, right?
00:22:34.000It turns out that the conservatives are the ones who are out here trying to defend women, right?
00:22:39.000Like it's just there's been this complete reversal as the Democrats shifted far to the left.
00:22:45.000They left this huge space in the center that I think Trump identified.
00:22:50.000But so, okay, this is something I wanted to ask you about because, okay, something that I struggle with is really saying I want to speak to every single person who's in that 70% in the center and keeping as wide a lane as possible so that I can speak to and for the people who don't get represented usually because of the elites on both sides.
00:23:12.000So I guess my question to you is: do you find yourself ever sort of choosing between speaking to that broad consensus and then the desire to sort of own the libs who desperately need to be owned?
00:24:43.000And so, I mean, I have a book coming out called Right Wing Revolution, which actually my contention is that the only way to get back to a moderate and prudent center is through a right-wing revolution because we've been so yoked in the cultural Marxist direction.
00:24:59.000And so that's kind of that's my response to it.
00:25:03.000And I've also found, though, that even moderate young people and students, students especially, they need to hear the conservative position because they've never actually maybe even heard it.
00:25:13.000They might have heard like a watered down, pandered to type opinion.
00:25:19.000So the vast majority of my exchanges are really, you know, I think they're really moderate, to be perfectly honest.
00:25:26.000I totally agree with everything you just said.
00:25:27.000I also think most of your opinions are very moderate.
00:25:30.000So here's an interesting thing: 70% of black Americans agree with your position on gender.
00:25:38.000They totally reject the idea that a person can be born in the wrong gender.
00:25:42.000I guess what I would want is for every single one of them to feel that they have an alternative.
00:25:49.000And let's take, for example, the MLK thing, right?
00:25:52.000I totally get where you were going with that.
00:25:55.000But what if there is a black person who's out there and says, I am carefully paying attention to the GOP to the right to see, can I have a home there?
00:26:03.000Because I'm not buying this trans stuff.
00:26:16.000I mean, I'll be honest, I got more response from black Americans who loved this.
00:26:21.000I mean, we have Blexit, which is the largest minority outreach program in the conservative movement, by far doing hundreds of urban and black outreach events.
00:27:06.000At each stage, Charlie, I would be like, surely all the people who were my friends who are going to publicly denounce me have already done so.
00:27:15.000So there are not many, I would say, but only by their choice.
00:27:19.000Of course, as an opinion editor at a publication, Newsweek, where we run both sides, I have people who write for me who I respect very much, who are very much on the woke left.
00:27:30.000But even if you want them, because I like having people who I disagree with, it keeps me honest, but they won't stay.
00:27:36.000You know, they don't like, like you said, Charlie, they don't like hearing the other side.
00:27:41.000So, you know, you have a PhD in English, is that right?
00:27:44.000So you've been around a lot of the wokeys.
00:27:47.000Can you help me understand why the woke revolutionaries, they show no signs of stopping down despite the destruction that their worldview has brought to the homeland?
00:27:59.000But don't you think that it's becoming clearer?
00:28:02.000Like, I think it's no one's falling for it anymore, right?
00:28:08.000They, they are still invested in it, but the support for it is just like cratering, which, you know, by the grace of God, I have to say, because in 2020, I didn't see that ending so quickly.
00:28:19.000They're deeply invested in it because they're invested in it economically.
00:28:23.000So I see it going that way, that they are deeply invested in it economically.
00:28:28.000It has placed them in the top 10% economically and had a ruinous effect on the working class.
00:28:34.000And they then created an ideology of justice to justify their assent, basically.
00:28:40.000And once you have a mortgage, it's much harder to then change your mind about something, especially if you know you'll never get a job if you do change your mind.
00:28:49.000So it's this sort of amalgamation of getting high on their own virtue, being able to call their political opponents evil and racist, which they get high on that as well.
00:28:59.000And then being completely economically invested in this worldview.
00:29:02.000And like you pointed out, it's at the corporate level.
00:30:36.000The issue is when you storm the HR department and say, Sam used the wrong pronouns, and I think they should be disciplined for that.
00:30:43.000And now we all have to use these pronoun markers in our bio to cater to a fringe minority that's so fragile, that is so weak that you can't possibly tolerate the idea of somebody mispronounning you or misgendering you.
00:32:09.000First of all, I just want to say about the clip that you just played.
00:32:12.000I don't know if your audience understands what you do because I could not do it and I admire it so much, but you go into hostile territory and just take on person after person after person.
00:32:25.000And it's just so important and no one does it anymore.
00:33:44.000My first book was called Bad News: How Woke Media is Undermining Democracy.
00:33:48.000And it's a little bit of a prelude to Second Class.
00:33:51.000Basically, what I found there was that the real divide in America is not between right versus left, it's between the working class and the elites.
00:33:58.000Our media is terrible, not because it's leftist, although it is leftist, it's terrible because the vast majority of journalists today have a degree from an elite university.
00:34:07.000And the number one thing they teach at those universities is to sneer at people who work with their hands for a living.
00:34:13.000That explains everything about the media, and it explains why they're waging war on Donald Trump and trying to put him in prison because he speaks for the people who work with their hands for a living, for hardworking Americans who are just struggling to get the American dream.
00:34:26.000Yeah, and I want to mention something you said earlier.
00:34:29.000You said it was really refreshing to have conservatives speak against corporations.
00:34:33.000Five or six years ago, I wouldn't have.
00:34:35.000And Tucker was very important in my education on this.
00:34:37.000But we as conservatives don't like consolidated unchecked power.
00:34:41.000So we don't like big government or big Google.
00:34:45.000And so I guess the final question I have for you, Bacha, is what do you think is the way forward to build a multilingual, multiracial working class coalition to take back our country from the oligarchy that's currently terrorizing it?
00:35:05.000The American working class is very united in its views on what it wants to see from a policy point of view.
00:35:14.000Whether a working class person is a liberal or a conservative, they by and large want the same things.
00:35:19.000So they really don't like welfare because they think it comes at their expense, but they also don't like corporations.
00:35:25.000They want to see people siding with workers over corporations.
00:35:28.000They want a total moratorium on immigration, but they want some sort of government-backed health care, which they don't see as welfare.
00:35:35.000They hate that they feel they can't afford good health care.
00:35:40.000They are anti-woke, which they think is deeply, deeply intolerant.
00:35:45.000They're very worried about trans people, but they're pro-gay.
00:35:48.000They say they would never get an abortion themselves, but they don't like abortion bans.