00:00:32.000There's some parts where I think I really made some salient points.
00:00:35.000So make sure you listen to the whole thing through.
00:00:37.000And I would just love your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com, about this conversation.
00:00:42.000And we're going to be doing a lot of these debates.
00:00:44.000In fact, we have a whole series of debates coming up.
00:00:46.000And I hope that they're helpful for you to be able to kind of see where the other side comes from and see how the best respond to it.
00:00:52.000Because I know so many of you get into debates in your life.
00:00:55.000So maybe they will be helpful for you.
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00:01:13.000I sit down with a college professor to debate critical race theory, wokeism, masking children, and what do we do when you have two different studies where he says, I have a study that says masks work, and I have one that says the opposite.
00:01:29.000How do we govern ourselves when you have study disagreement?
00:01:33.000This conversation with a decent man and a good man who I fundamentally disagree with in almost everything, where he says explicitly America is systemically racist in this podcast.
00:02:33.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:02:46.000Welcome to Debate Night here at Turning Point USA Headquarters.
00:02:49.000Honored to have with us today Dr. Richie, a very well-known radio talk show host in Atlanta, also a college professor, amongst many other things I'm sure I'm forgetting.
00:02:58.000And today we're going to be talking about COVID mandates, schools, masks, and so much more.
00:03:03.000The way that this conversation will go is Dr. Richie will begin with some thoughts for two minutes uninterrupted.
00:03:09.000I will respond with two minutes uninterrupted and we'll go back and forth in that format for about a minute each.
00:03:14.000And we'll take about a 10-second break or a little bit break.
00:03:17.000And then we'll just kind of have at it.
00:03:19.000And so, Dr. Richie, thank you for being here.
00:03:32.000First of all, the vast majority of American voters actually support mask mandates for school teachers and for those who are inside of the school system.
00:03:41.000But let's look at what it actually does.
00:03:43.000And mask mandate, people that argue against it, they say this is an intrusion on civil liberties.
00:04:38.000They're fighting those that oppose them.
00:04:40.000And they are threatening to fight school board members because of a mask mandate.
00:04:44.000I have not seen this kind of activity at school board meetings over anything except for these mandates.
00:04:51.000But remember, mandates are already in place.
00:04:54.000School boards have the statutory authority to implement administrative law given to them by the states based on the construct of the 10th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
00:05:05.000These school boards are well within their constitutional right and statutory authority in order to implement such a protocol, just as they have the ability to say, here's the dress code, here's the vaccination requirement, here's the teacher credentialing requirement, and here's what it takes to pass to the next grade.
00:05:37.000And so Dr. Macery wrote a story, wrote a piece, I should say, for the Wall Street Journal, where he studied tens of thousands, over 40,000 children with the virus and was not able to find one child that died from the virus, that did not have underlying health conditions and that did not have some sort of immunocompromised condition.
00:05:59.000And so you look even more broadly than that.
00:06:10.000So children 5 to 14 years old have a 2.1 per 100,000 chance of dying from cancer, a 1.9 per 100,000 chance of dying from vehicle accidents.
00:06:30.0000.7 from homicide, 0.6 from cardiovascular disease, 0.5 from drowning, 0.3 from flu, and 0.2 from COVID.
00:06:39.000Now, that's not percentage, that's per 100,000.
00:06:42.000So the question is, if children are at a greater risk of riding in a car to school, then why all of a sudden should we now mandate the masks for children?
00:06:52.000So I think we're talking about two different things, and I think we'll have a fun time going back and forth at the unscripted part of this is do schools have the ability and the authority and is it a good idea?
00:07:01.000I'm going to start with whether it's a good idea, then we can get into the other one.
00:07:08.000We already see the increase in mental health issues that I will go through some of the numbers associated with that, but everyone has kind of experienced that in their own way.
00:07:16.000And saying to a child who is not at considerable risk of dying from a certain virus that you must change the way you interact, I think is child abuse.
00:07:33.000The Delta variant has changed the game in many ways, where now you have children who not only have the virus, but they are experiencing adverse reactions from the virus like never before.
00:07:42.000I take you to a place called Jackson County, Mississippi.
00:07:46.000This guy decided to ignore all COVID-19 protocols.
00:07:48.000He says he's going to live a life that's external of the fear of the pandemic.
00:07:53.000Well, his school system, they have a 7% COVID positive rating.
00:07:59.000They've already lost a school teacher.
00:08:01.000Here's the other dynamic that people are considering.
00:08:03.000You think children go to school in silos?
00:08:05.000These children who can be carriers of COVID-19 can infect their social environment, such as their parents, their grandparents, other peer groups, people that their families associate with.
00:08:17.000And then it becomes an issue of the ecosystem of our safety, not just the silo of the school system.
00:08:29.000So a lot of people have done at least some initial studies of the Delta variant.
00:08:34.000So according to Dr. Roberta DeBasi of the Children's National Hospital, she was asked about Ari Shapiro from National Public Radio about the Delta variant.
00:08:43.000The National Public Radio host said, wait a second, if kids under 12 are not vaccinated, is the delta variant a significant risk?
00:08:51.000And she said, quote, children are still somewhat between 12 to 15 percent of all COVID cases and still 3 to 4 percent of all hospitalizations.
00:08:58.000And we have not seen a huge change in that, even with the delta variant.
00:09:01.000Now, I'll add to that, where the Boston Globe, not exactly a politicized paper to the right, asked the question, is the variant more severe in children?
00:09:10.000Dr. Sharon Doran, epidemiologist at Tufts Medical Center, says, no.
00:09:14.000I have not seen any peer-reviewed data or data from a reliable source to suggest that.
00:09:18.000So I would submit, Doctor, that there is no data to show the Delta variant has any harsher cause.
00:09:45.000Alabama, for the first time, they have run out of ICU beds.
00:09:48.000The Alabama leadership, Governor and Beyond, they have blamed this on children going to hospitals that did not go before with the original COVID virus.
00:09:58.000They're now being hospitalized like never before, and they're running out of ICU beds.
00:10:02.000And at some point this week or next week, they may run out of ICU beds.
00:10:06.000That's because of the hospitalization, not only of adults, but also of children.
00:10:10.000At last count, they had over 400 children hospitalized for COVID.
00:10:15.000They had a fraction of that during the first onset of the virus.
00:10:23.000It's almost like you do radio or something.
00:10:25.000So I'll respond to this in a couple different ways.
00:10:27.000And there's a lot more to unpack once we kind of go back and forth.
00:10:30.000First, we have to ask ourselves the question, are people being hospitalized because of COVID or with COVID?
00:10:35.000Now, this is something I've been saying for quite some time, but The Atlantic, which is a publication I think we can both agree, it's not exactly on the right, came out with this at the end of their article.
00:10:44.000It was actually just published recently, where they asked the question, and this is the same doctor, Dr. Shara Doran, who's an epidemiologist at Tufts Medical Center from Boston, very reputable, right?
00:10:55.000She says Delta variant is not a significant risk for children, right?
00:10:58.000And we're going to talk about what do you do when you disagree when you have competing studies?
00:11:02.000I think that would be an interesting discussion where she said, quote, as we shift from cases to hospitalizations as a metric-to-drive policy and assess risk, we should refine the definition of hospitalization.
00:11:13.000Those patients who are there with rather than from COVID don't belong in the metrics.
00:11:17.000So I would just say, doctor, when you say 400 kids are hospitalized with COVID, we don't know that's necessarily true.
00:11:22.000In fact, some say that number might be even 50 times too large.
00:11:55.000And I keep hearing people make this argument that somehow it matters that children who have an underlying health condition are the ones who are dying or being hospitalized.
00:12:21.000So when we continue to create this us and them narrative that somehow says, well, the only children who are dying are those that have an underlying health condition.
00:12:30.000Well, hell, you can have an underlying health condition.
00:12:33.000That does not make you any less significant as it relates to a virus or the spread of a virus that's preventable.
00:12:40.000So are we having an argument about a civil liberty?
00:12:44.000Because if this is an argument about a civil liberty, then the COVID issue is a separate argument because you have no issue with your seatbelt mandate.
00:12:54.000You have no issue with your mandate to have a driver's license, even though you can buy a car without it.
00:13:00.000You have no issue with these other mandates which are required for the safety of others, but you have an issue with this mandate, which we've already established that statutorily school boards have the authority to implement these mandates.
00:13:13.000And American citizens, by and large, are for the mandates in K-12 education.
00:13:17.000So I'll get to the civil liberties in a second.
00:13:19.000As you notice, I didn't mention it all.
00:13:24.000And also, it's bad for teachers, bad for an educational environment.
00:13:29.000And so I'm going to reiterate one thing.
00:13:31.000I'm not minimizing that it's children with underlying health conditions that are dying, but children with underlying health conditions have a predisposition from dying from any sort of infectious disease.
00:13:41.000And the vast majority of children in this country are healthy, which is why we frame it in that way.
00:13:46.000And so this kind of goes to this question, a couple of different questions.
00:13:48.000And I would love to ask this question to you.
00:13:51.000Let's just focus on whether this is a good idea, then we could focus on whether the government has the ability.
00:13:55.000Do you think there are any downsides to children wearing masks in schools?
00:14:14.000There will always be a cause and effect relationship with any social variable change implemented in our current structural society, no matter what.
00:14:26.000It is a social deviation from the norm.
00:14:29.000But when you look at the risk of a child either having severe respiratory complications forever, potentially dying, or potentially infecting their parents or grandparents, we weigh that.
00:14:43.000We weigh the same variables as it relates to vaccines that are already mandated.
00:14:48.000Brother, in the school system, the vaccines that are already mandated are very clear.
00:14:59.000It's a totally different type of vaccine, first of all.
00:15:01.000First of all, those take 10 to 15 years on average to develop.
00:15:04.000Secondly, they've just changed the definition of a vaccine.
00:15:07.000So you have an issue with the vaccine, not the intrusion, or well, again, we'll get to the civil liberty part of it, right?
00:15:12.000So I'm not saying that a school does not have the ability to mandate certain things.
00:15:16.000Instead, my argument is that this is detrimental to children, their development, mental health issues, their ability to interact, and it doesn't even do what you say it's going to do.
00:15:26.000That a study was done about masks that shows that if the mask is even adjusted by 3.2%, it totally invalidates any sort of efficacy of a mask.
00:15:37.000Well, this was written by Daniel Horowitz.
00:15:39.000Stephen Petty, one of the most experienced, certified industrial hygienicists and exposure experts in the country, has a study that he did on this.
00:15:48.000So Steven Petty, the audience, can look at it and they can have their own sort of interpretation.
00:15:53.000Now, most of the mask studies that you're probably going to mention are done in laboratory-style environments, not with six-year-old children.
00:16:01.000And you can agree, you've seen six-year-olds, they're moving the mask all the time, which totally negates any sort of potential benefit.
00:16:08.000So if kids aren't going to wear them properly and the cloth mask is basically a joke, then why subject them to this kind of submissive kind of cloth face diaper?
00:16:18.000All right, so you're incorrect on the data.
00:16:19.000So let me go ahead and correct that data.
00:16:22.000First off, the data that you're citing is what we call an outlier data set.
00:16:28.00092% of the field of actual research scientists agree that masks decrease the spread of COVID.
00:16:36.000As a matter of fact, the only deviation from that agreement is by how much?
00:18:58.000So I want to read some of these numbers.
00:19:00.000And I want to ask you, do you think that masking children forcibly is going to help the 90% increase in suicide that we saw through March from 2019 to 20?
00:19:11.000Is it going to help the nearly doubling of mental health issues or the 333.9% increase in intentional self-harm claim lines?
00:19:45.000There's nothing in the data set that says that.
00:19:47.000So you think that masks have no impact whatsoever, potentially mental health?
00:19:51.000Brother, I just answered that question and told you they do have an impact, but COVID-19 has even a stronger impact on social development because the risk of death, brother, is too low for children.
00:21:13.000In a second, but it's such a, or it becomes precedent or gets implemented or whatever it is.
00:21:17.000So as I mentioned, the New York Times said that COVID, you have a higher chance of dying from flu pneumonia, drowning, cardiovascular disease, suicide, homicide, vehicle accidents.
00:21:28.000So to be consistent per 100,000 for children, right?
00:24:55.000Because how do you govern oneself when you have, I have this study, I have that study, but I just want to make sure that the people watching can see where I'm coming from my perspective.
00:25:03.000So let me just say kind of one other point on this.
00:25:06.000You said that, am I willing to make adjustments for child safety?
00:25:11.000And you kind of asked, that was the open-ended question where I say it's not about that at all.
00:25:16.000In fact, the downside, in my opinion, far outweighs any sort of benefit, especially when Dr. Macri, who said, he studied right here, he studied 43,000 children with COVID and was not able to find a single death.
00:25:31.000Now, you say it's also a transmission issue.
00:25:34.000Dr. Macquarie also said that children, quote, are not significant carriers or super spreaders to adults.
00:25:48.000What that doctor just quoted to say that children are not carriers of COVID-19 is outlier data because over 90% of the field agrees based on research and study that kids are carriers of not only COVID, but of any virus.
00:26:04.000And you literally just made that argument with me.
00:26:07.000You literally just said, Charlie, that kids do not properly wear their masks and they're spreading things by not properly wearing their mask.
00:26:41.000Do we then go back and unravel, because only 49 states have seatbelt laws, do we go back and unravel the 49 state statutes because there are some people who will either A, not wear them, or B, actually die because of them?
00:26:57.000We don't do that, Charlie, because we see the benefit of wearing that safety belt, that protocol far outweighs anything else.
00:27:05.000So we haven't, I've not been convinced by the data.
00:27:09.000Let's talk about the data because we're going to collide on data.
00:27:12.000Let me ask you a question when it comes to driving and safetyism.
00:27:15.000Do you think we should bring speed limits down to 20 miles an hour, which would definitely save lives?
00:28:06.000All of these research surveys, these research, these laboratory experiments, these real world research experiments, that's the field of study.
00:28:17.000And so, for you and I, who are reading the data from these experts, what we typically depend on is what is the majority sentiment?
00:28:25.000What is the consensus among the scientist community?
00:28:28.000And that is how we start to derive our conclusions based on the research that we're able to analyze independently as independent thinking individuals.
00:28:38.000Now, you can still believe an outlier study if you choose.
00:28:42.000It is contrary to the majority of the science that's available for review, but that is still within your right as an American, right?
00:28:53.000You're going to always have clashing opinions and conclusions, but literally in research, there's no 50-50 here.
00:29:00.000There's not 50% of the scientists are saying this and 50% of the scientists are saying that.
00:29:05.000Literally, you're giving me eight, seven percent of what scientists are saying compared to 92, 93 percent of what other scientists are saying.
00:29:13.000That's the argument that you're making with me, Charlie.
00:29:15.000And I'm always fascinated by the 7% because they're willing to buck the consensus and pursue things that they have found in the scientific method to be true.
00:29:24.000And so, I guess this is an important question.
00:29:27.000Then we'll get into what do we do when we have these differences because that we're going to keep on going in circles of study versus study.
00:29:32.000And I'm going to say, Well, according to this doctor, for example, as I'll say, Dr. Darone, delta variant not severe in children.
00:29:39.000And then I'll say Dr. Debazi said the same thing.
00:29:41.000And Dr. Macri, and you'll say, Well, the CDC said this.
00:31:52.000You know, we were told that it was a conspiracy theory, that it came from a lab.
00:31:55.000Well, that's kind of the prevailing wisdom.
00:31:57.000Now, it definitely didn't come from some bat in the Himalayas.
00:32:00.000It's looking more and more like it came from the Wuhan Institute of Virology.
00:32:03.000It also used to be an outlier to say that we revolve around the sun.
00:32:07.000The heliocentric theory of gravitational pull, as authored by Galileo, used to be an outlier in science.
00:32:14.000Newton's first, second, and third law, the idea that an object at rest will stay at rest, the idea that there's force equals mass times acceleration.
00:32:22.000These things had to be eventually investigated and proven.
00:32:51.000Like a majority of scientists right now are saying that we have to entertain another round of lockdowns in certain parts of the country or the world to try to stop the virus.
00:33:24.000Sweden, that probably had the most mature and prudent response to the virus, is wide open.
00:33:29.000And Sweden has now banned Israeli citizens from coming into Sweden.
00:33:34.000And so I don't need a PhD in epidemiology to say, hey, whatever decisions they were making in Sweden seemed far more prudent than what they were doing in Israel.
00:33:44.000And I suppose this is the question, which is you have this multitude of studies.
00:33:50.000Many of these, the consensus that was put forward.
00:35:30.000I would only agree if it's a certain type of mask that is worn absolutely properly, that followed the exact laboratory guidelines.
00:35:37.000If and only then, I would say maybe, which almost no human being outside of a controlled, sterilized laboratory environment is wearing a mask that way.
00:37:19.000The way it spreads through droplets primarily is through your mouth and through your nose.
00:37:24.000Once again, I cite the study highlighted by the University of California that found in a high-speed camera, 20 to 500 micrometers were generated from a simple phrase, hello, goodbye, good to see you.
00:38:10.000So then the question is, how do we govern ourselves, right?
00:38:13.000If we have differences of opinions on things that are constantly changing and confusing.
00:38:17.000Wouldn't the right answer be, allow a parent and the child to make that decision outside of what a school district might want to do against their will?
00:38:26.000Shouldn't we always resort towards parental rights in situations like this?
00:39:47.000But the issue is we can't create a standard that says we're willing to put your life in danger or your child in danger because you have a personal issue with the school policy.
00:40:01.000And remember, once again, the vast majority of Americans are for the mask mandate policy.
00:40:08.000First of all, I think it's somewhat of a red herring argument because some parents don't like to send their kids to private school because they have a dress code.
00:40:22.000Because here's what happens is that some parents are going to yield to my opinion.
00:40:27.000Some parents will yield to your opinion.
00:40:28.000Isn't the right decision just to let parents choose?
00:40:31.000I think the right decision is to allow the elected representatives who were elected by those parents to enact administrative law to make common sense policies to protect the children and for them to listen to the science as it's collected locally.
00:40:44.000I don't believe it's the right idea to do what DeSantis has did in Florida, which is to make a mask mandate ban, which by the way, 70% of Republicans disagree with his ban on mask mandates and defunding school systems who are in opposition to his executive action.
00:41:04.000And a judge recently ruled by Governor DeSantis that DeSantis in Florida was without legal authority when he used an executive order to limit a governmental entity that exists by statute.
00:41:19.000If you want to start making executive orders to restrict other governmental agencies, go through statutory processes through your legislation.
00:41:28.000First of all, I love what DeSantis did and I love the idea.
00:41:31.000Coming in, well, there was a judge that is rehearing.
00:41:33.000I think he actually just won on that, but I will yield to this, that there was an Iowa decision that just said where a judge said what happened in Iowa was unconstitutional.
00:43:06.000Canada is implementing that in the fall.
00:43:08.000Other countries are going to do the same.
00:43:09.000If you're telling me that the school system, just think about this, and I'm going back to vaccines.
00:43:13.000If you're telling me that the school system has the legal authority to mandate various vaccinations, that's a needle going into the body of a child.
00:43:21.000They have the authority to mandate that, but they do not have the authority to mandate a mask.
00:44:06.000Well, do I have an issue with the one that was put on the marketplace without the usual 10 to 15 years of study and the peer-reviewed studies and the explosion of various responses?
00:44:17.00010 to 15 years later, you'll agree with me.
00:44:23.000Is how are we going to use practical judgment to see what's in front of us and ask ourselves the question, should we use force to all of a sudden say to a family, you know what?
00:44:32.000Does it matter about all these studies that may very well might be a small percentage of doctors, but you know what's so great about science?
00:45:28.000The Voting Rights Act, I think, is what you're referring to.
00:45:31.000The Voting Rights Act was gutted by the Supreme Court a few years ago, who set it aside and said the United States Congress needs to now handle this statutorily, which is the reason why southern states like Georgia, Mississippi, and others do not have to seek pre-clearance from the Department of Justice in order to change the electorate rules in their state.
00:45:52.000Before the Supreme Court set aside the Voting Rights Act, they would have to get pre-clearance from the DOJ in order to change voting rules in their society.
00:46:00.000Before we get to voting, can you complete the point, though?
00:46:02.000Because you were trying to connect voting with COVID.
00:47:19.000Yes, but all, I mean, like, look, rights are conditional under the current agreement we've made with our government, where the Second Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, there are exceptions.
00:47:28.000I think there's far too many exceptions.
00:48:41.000That's also true, which is why we should have widespread gun ownership and we should be able to protect ourselves against a usurpatious government.
00:48:53.000But voting is how we express our values and put people in positions of power.
00:48:59.000And if there's any question in the efficacy, the integrity, the transparency in how those elections are done, the entire system falls apart, which is why I believe in transparent and fair elections.
00:49:10.000And this idea that Georgia somehow has oppressive voter laws, they have 18 days of early voting, way more than Delaware has.
00:49:18.000They allow Sunday voting, which is sold to the polls, which is I'm sure something you're very well aware of.
00:49:23.000So that's a misinterpretation of that.
00:49:25.000So I do believe in constitutional voting, which is leave it to the states.
00:49:28.000Let the states do what they want to do with voting.
00:49:30.000And that goes with gun laws as well as voter laws.
00:49:42.000There are federal laws like the Brady bill in 1986 that says that felons cannot buy weapons, that the federal agents are able to get subpoenas against weapons.
00:50:31.000Everything we're talking about as far as regulatory agencies, mandates for vaccines or masks or protocols for COVID-19 is derived from the Constitution.
00:50:41.000There are two dynamics that the Constitution allows.
00:50:45.000No, I never said it was unconstitutional.
00:50:56.000If you believe in the Constitution, why do you dismiss Article 1, Section 8, Clause 3, or the 10th Amendment of the Constitution, which gives states and gives regulatory agencies and gives school boards these particular powers?
00:53:01.000We're talking about the safety of children and mask mandates inside of a local school system that the majority of taxpaying Americans actually agree with.
00:55:24.000What I said was this, and it was provocative intentionally, but it got your attention, but it's true, which is that this idea that just because 60% of Americans want something, make it right.
00:55:34.000And I said they used to use that to justify segregation.
00:55:38.000So my argument is not simply a majority argument.
00:55:40.000My argument is an argument based on data, safety, my common sense, and also a majority argument.
00:55:49.000So no way should we compare good faith parents who are trying to genuinely protect their children to some type of misguided, evil, and perverted sentiment of white individuals in the 60s.
00:56:06.000And I think there is obviously a difference between the two.
00:56:09.000The point is, though, is that majorities can be wrong, and they can be dreadfully wrong.
00:56:13.000That's the point I was trying to make.
00:56:15.000So let's talk about the Biden mandate.
00:56:23.000Let's talk about private sector because that's what's in the headlines, right?
00:56:29.000The Joe Biden mandate, and I'm using air quotes intentionally, is not a mandate at all.
00:56:36.000And shame on Democrats, damn it, for not knowing how to tell people what this was.
00:56:43.000This is a COVID-19 vaccine protocol, but not a mandate.
00:56:47.000So literally in the executive action, it says that if you have a private company which has 100 employees or more, then there's a certain protocol this company must adhere to.
00:57:00.000And that protocol says either you have the vaccine or you take a test once a week, and that's it.
00:57:12.000That's literally telling you there is absolutely no mandate for you to get the vaccine, but there is a protocol to make sure others are safe.
00:57:21.000Now, a lot of people are, you know, they're raging about this.
00:57:52.000OSHA does not have the manpower to implement and enforce these COVID protocols throughout the entire country.
00:57:59.000They're going to write it, and they're probably going to spot check if there's a surge in COVID outbreaks in a particular company, but they are not able to actually implement the law all over the United States.
00:58:13.000Once again, I'm back to the Constitution.
00:58:16.000OSHA was created statutorily in 1970 because of the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, where Congress has the ability to create regulatory agencies.
00:58:27.000And the Commerce Clause says that the federal government can regulate through administrative rule, policy, and law anything that impacts interstate commerce.
00:58:35.000That is your law derived from the Constitution.
00:58:38.000The framers of the Constitution were smart enough to realize you do need a federal government with the authority to do this.
00:58:44.000And listen, this is not an ongoing mandate from OSHA.
00:58:53.000That's an emergency temporary standard that ETS expires after 100 days.
00:58:59.000And after that 100 days, the agency will have to go through all of the bureaucratic process, including public opinion, which is required by federal law, in order to make it a permanent rule.
00:59:11.000All of this that's happening is within the context and confines of not only the U.S. Constitution, statutory law, and also settled case law that has been well established 1990, Doe versus Steel Workers.
00:59:25.000And before I forget this part, I want to make it very clear.
00:59:29.000OSHA by statute can do two things in an ETS.
00:59:34.000One, when employees may be exposed to substances or agents that may be harmful.
00:59:39.000And two, Such a standard is necessary to protect employees.
00:59:47.000You all had no issue with the regulatory powers of the U.S. Congress.
00:59:51.000You had no issue with the Commerce Clause of the Constitution until it came to COVID.
00:59:58.000Well, I would say I would probably, I had a lot of issues with the fourth branch of government for quite some time.
01:00:02.000What I will agree with you, though, doctor, is that, yes, OSHA is so inefficient, so bureaucratic, so slow, and not exactly the most agile government agency that you're probably right.
01:00:13.000It's going to take them so long, they're not going to come marching into places.
01:00:16.000But the reason there's the outrage from people like me and employers, because we have 100-plus employees here at Turning Point USA, and we vowed to fight this in federal court.
01:00:25.000Are you going to comply first, though?
01:00:38.000And that's going to be a common refrain here because I think the courts can be wrong a lot.
01:00:42.000The courts were wrong with separate but equal.
01:00:45.000They were wrong about many other things, right?
01:00:47.000They were wrong about forced sterilization of women in the 1920s with the same sort of 1905 decision, the Jackson decision that set the precedent for that.
01:00:55.000And in essence, here's the big issue: is that we, I've made the choice not to get vaccinated.
01:00:59.000Many of our employees have made the same decision.
01:01:01.000Some of our employees have made the choice to get vaccinated.
01:01:05.000All of a sudden, we have now a company where employees are enjoying the added benefit of having medical freedom.
01:01:11.000Now, you might say, just get a test, go do that.
01:01:14.000I find that to be a grotesque invasion of how we do our own protocols here in our office.
01:01:20.000Who are you to say I should have a test or that?
01:01:21.000What about people that have already had the virus?
01:01:23.000And basically, the argument, the outrage, if you will, is less about the technicalities, OSHA or the IRS or whatever.
01:01:41.000And let me be clear about my point of view.
01:01:45.000The Biden administration would need to find a way to make sure people that have already contracted COVID and have the antibodies can benefit from some of the same policies he's a reasonable middle ground.
01:03:06.000And the other argument is everybody who works with you, everybody who works in an office, especially if we're talking about 100 people or more.
01:03:13.000Once again, they're not in a silo, brother.
01:03:59.000It's not something I'm jumping up and down to do, but I get why it needs to be done.
01:04:03.000So I understand it from both sides of the argument.
01:04:05.000So let me, I want to ask you about a couple of things that I'm interested.
01:04:08.000I think it will lead us in a good direction.
01:04:11.000And we can get into vaccine efficacy, but we're going to just kind of go back to colliding studies.
01:04:15.000I'm curious, though, because I saw a tweet that you sent that really fascinated me about how you said you understand black people's skepticism towards getting the vaccine.
01:04:24.000Because of course, the Tuskegee idea of medical experiments and kind of how federal health agencies have been abusive before, especially towards black people and people of color, something I will fully admit.
01:04:37.000And so can you help me unpack why you trust the health officials now and why you trust this vaccine?
01:04:45.000Because some people, like Nikki Minaj and others, are kind of playing into this kind of medical freedom argument.
01:04:51.000I'm just curious as someone who obviously speaks on behalf of the black community.
01:05:00.000So anyone who tries to shame black folk, you don't understand the history of black people.
01:05:05.000If you try to shame black folks who are vaccine hesitant, you don't understand the reason of their distrust with governmental agencies, period, especially as it relates to healthcare.
01:05:18.000So I stand by that and I defend opportunities like this because I think it's very important to understand the why, right?
01:05:27.000You talked about Tuskegee, but it goes deeper than that.
01:05:30.000We've had localized studies all throughout the United States.
01:05:33.000Hell, there was one two weeks ago of an actual medical director of a county jail who decided to secretly treat inmates with ivermectin.
01:06:02.000He's now under investigation by the medical board because these inmates, they learned that they were being treated with ivermectin, brother, on the news.
01:06:12.000They were literally inside of their pod.
01:06:15.000Well, not according to them, because the person that was the whistleblower said, not only did I get, did it get worse, I had stomach issues, I had diarrhea, vomiting, sweating, and they lied, man.
01:06:27.000They lied to these black folks incarcerated.
01:06:29.000So that only, I don't care if he was being treated with one of the approved FDA medications for COVID.
01:06:47.000I trust individuals in research science.
01:06:49.000I trust people at Morehouse School of Medicine where I lecture.
01:06:53.000I trust these black scientists and black doctors and infectious disease specialists that look like me who have said they were hesitant at first too, but they got involved in the data.
01:08:48.000You think they're going to trust a vaccine?
01:08:52.000They don't have anybody that's really common to them that they can talk to about it.
01:08:55.000And there's so much misinformation from these outlier studies and from Donald Trump politicizing the whole damn thing, even though he got the vaccination himself and also wore a mask himself.
01:09:05.000This misinformation has harmed communities that are not in the flux of information or connected to medical health care.
01:09:13.000So let's talk just kind of generally about race.
01:09:17.000This is kind of segue the whole conversation, if that's okay with you.
01:09:21.000Do you think America is a systemically racist country?
01:11:22.000So I connected to this guy like that because for you to come be in my class from that neighborhood, you have done something miraculous, right?
01:11:32.000Four weeks into the semester, semesters are 15, 16 weeks.
01:11:35.000Four weeks into the semester, he gets this letter from financial aid saying that he did not get approved for financial aid.
01:12:13.000According to all of the research science, white people use marijuana at the same rate as black folks, but are five times more likely to be arrested for it and actually charged.
01:12:58.000So for example, for the poor family in Southeast Ohio that is mostly white, and they get arrested with an opioid charge, trafficking opioids, let's say they earn $32,000 a year.
01:15:36.000So the majority of the studies show that if you put in an application, you list your education experience, you put in an ethnic sounding name, you don't get called back at least 20% or more drop-off rate for those who have an ethnic sounding name.
01:15:54.000Same application submitted, same company, boom, put a white sounding name on that application.
01:16:00.000Study after study show that with the same background, same educational information, they got a call back 20% higher or more than the application that was the exact same with the ethnic sounding name.
01:17:44.000So thousands of years before Thomas Jefferson walked the earth, George Washington, Whitfield, Adams, all these guys, slavery existed.
01:17:52.000The question should be: who started the movement to stop it?
01:17:55.000The first ever anti-slavery convention was hosted in Philadelphia in 1775, chaired by Benjamin Franklin.
01:18:02.0001776, the Virginia Declaration of Rights was written by George Mason, which proclaimed that all men are created equal, which heavily inspired the Declaration of Independence.
01:18:11.000Thomas Jefferson wrote the Declaration of Independence, and Vermont was so inspired by that, they were the first sovereign community of people to abolish slavery.
01:18:53.000Thomas Jefferson signed the moratorium saying no new slaves are allowed to come into the United States as one of his first acts as president in 1807.
01:19:01.000The question should not be whether or not slavery existed.
01:19:04.000The question should be, why was it starting to end?
01:21:19.000You're splitting hairs on the three-fifth compromise.
01:21:21.000That's what you're splitting hairs about because this was a population configuration in order to determine the electoral college matrix of that particular state so that they could have a national South Carolina and Georgia wanted it, not to give blacks a voice.
01:22:56.000But let me talk about the Northwest Ordinance.
01:22:58.000Northwest Ordinance was the new territories, Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, which they were asking ourselves, what do we believe?
01:23:05.000This new territory, Article 6 of the Northwest Ordinance, ratified by every single state, said slavery is illegal in the new territories.
01:23:13.000So if they were getting rid of slavery, why shouldn't we praise them?
01:24:04.000Someone who said Thomas Jefferson, who advocated for the elimination in slavery in Virginia, signed the moratorium of new slaves, but owned slaves himself and released them, had a child with a slave.
01:24:14.000That's a complicated person, aren't we all?
01:24:16.000So let's go back to something that I want you to understand from my point of view.
01:24:20.000Slavery wasn't just about being enslaved, okay?
01:24:24.000Slavery was also, and I've done a trace of my lineage, right?
01:24:31.000Slavery was also about the slave owners who could legally rape black women, who could molest black children, who could kill without any penalty or repercussion from the government.
01:24:43.000It was more than just the labor, brother.
01:24:47.000It was more than just the blood, sweat, and tears equity to build a nation.
01:24:53.000It was also the evil atrocities within the construct of a limitless environment to do what you wanted to do to another human being without penalty.
01:25:04.000So you, just a couple things, and then I'd like to get your opinion on another person in history, which is the founders at nine out of 13 estates had already abolished slavery.
01:25:53.000Hell, a broken clock is right two times a day.
01:25:56.000So I would rather you have that opinion of some of these people that did extreme evil and committed massive atrocities against other human beings.
01:26:05.000But the reason why, and I'll get to Abraham Lincoln in a second, why I think that Jefferson and Tom and Madison and Jay and Hamilton were so amazing is they didn't invent slavery and they never wrote extensively defending it ever.
01:26:18.000Instead, they made real structural changes to eliminate it.
01:26:21.000But Abraham Lincoln, isn't that evidence that America made movements towards all of a sudden saying, hey, here's a president who called if nothing is wrong, then slavery is not wrong, who gave the Cooper Union address, who talked about a moral right that all men are created equal, who made the divine connection between the principles of the Declaration.
01:27:28.000It's one about believing the stories of black folks when they tell you.
01:27:32.000You know, over 90% of black people say they've experienced some level of workplace discrimination or discriminatory activity inside of their social circle.
01:27:46.000That's a massive number to be discriminated against in that matter.
01:27:51.000And I think when it comes to, we can look at all the studies, the studies are very clear as far as biases that exist against people of color, et cetera.
01:29:22.000I mean, I'm going back to the systemic racism issue that police departments have reported on themselves and then invited diversity experts because these cops see a problem in their own implicit bias, their own implicit bias.
01:29:40.000So you're arguing something that they actually agree we have implicit bias.
01:29:46.000So when we looked at our pullover ratios, when we looked at who we're actually engaging with based on a, what's called a pretextual stop, they tend to be black and brown.
01:29:56.000And we need to stop doing that based on a profile structure.
01:30:00.000And they have brought in diversity experts to help them understand, acknowledge, and hopefully eliminate their own bias.
01:30:06.000So I just want to give a shout out to, I think it's Dr. Roland Breyer.
01:30:50.000Charlie, you know, stepped in it now, Charlie.
01:30:52.000Not only did the DOJ find bias and racially motivated practices, the DOJ also reported that white supremacists were the greatest domestic threat to infiltrating law enforcement agencies.
01:31:08.000And that is something that the federal government needs to keep their eye on.
01:32:12.000White women are part of the Affirmative Action Directive.
01:32:15.000White females, based on all of the data of affirmative action and the diversity hires, white women benefit more so than any other demographic under the affirmative action clause.
01:32:28.000Now, the reason why you assumed it was black people is because you've heard these talking points about.
01:32:34.000But I have said, though, that we know the data based submitted in the Supreme Court case that black people were being submitted with lower test scores.
01:32:42.000All right, and by the way, for the record, I disagree with that practice just on the face of it.
01:33:50.000There's a part of the bill that says it's a misdemeanor, a crime up to one year in jail if you give someone food or water that's waiting in a line.
01:34:00.000Now, some people try to say, no, no, no, no, this is if you're electioneering.
01:35:59.000Before this state law, Senate Bill 202, each county was able to utilize their own determination as to when they would do early voting or weekend voting.
01:36:10.000As a matter of fact, brother, most counties did not do weekend voting.
01:36:41.000The state said, okay, y'all, we're going to limit this down to just a couple of weekends where you could choose to do Saturday or Sunday voting.
01:36:51.000So for the other counties that are ruling white, they now are mandated to do at least one weekend voting standard or two.
01:36:58.000And the counties that are black, urban, and Democrat, to be frank with you, they now have to limit how many days they do early voting based on the statute.
01:37:07.000And because of the statewide part of the statute, Republicans can argue it was an expansion, but it limited the metropolitan counties.
01:37:15.000So I'm not going to know those details.
01:37:19.000Yeah, but why mess with it is the question.
01:37:21.000Let me just make sure that they're on a suit.
01:37:23.000And I'm going to give you the opportunity to respond.
01:38:39.000What in the hell study are you reciting?
01:38:42.000Anything from the Manhattan Institute to Roland Reyer to Thomas Soule to independent analysis of data.
01:38:47.000I will take you to Ohio State University, California, University of California, Berkeley.
01:38:52.000I take you to Clark Atlanta University.
01:38:55.000Many of these research scientists have conducted not only these studies in real life, but they've reviewed the data and the data is clear.
01:39:04.000But when we talk about disparities, man, or racial profiling and systemic prejudice, systemic bias, we're talking about laws that adversely impact a particular group, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally.
01:39:20.000Remember, I told you that the bias can be implicit.
01:42:08.000If the largest gang bust in the history of a state and the second largest in the history of the country happened, and you being a person that's a conveyor of news, never heard of it.
01:43:12.000The push and pull of the republic or the democracy, whatever you want to call it, all right, is based on open, free, transparent, and authentic dialogue.
01:43:23.000And even though I disagree with you about 90% of the time, you are authentic in what you believe.
01:43:29.000And, brother, I go to war for you anytime.
01:43:31.000And this sort of discussion is exactly what makes America special and to be able to disagree and still figure out kind of what we're doing.
01:43:38.000So I just want to make sure I plug all of an opportunity for people to follow you or to engage with you.
01:43:53.000You can check me out on the Young Turks Network, Indisputable with Dr. Rashad Richie, and also my radio program, News of Talk1380, W-A-O-K, the Rashad Richie Morning Show Monday through Friday.
01:44:09.000Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
01:44:10.000Email us your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com.
01:44:13.000And if you want to support our podcast, it's charliekirk.com/slash support.
01:44:16.000We're the organization that put on this wonderful conversation.
01:44:19.000Something very close to my heart: tpusa.com, tpusa.com, who puts on the series of Debate Night with Charlie Kirk, where we try to find truth through freedom of speech and dialogue.