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00:02:50.000A clip has been going viral, and it's more than a clip.
00:02:53.000It was an amazing interaction, you could say, at the Oxford Union involving Winston Marshall and Nancy Pelosi.
00:03:04.000Well, it was a debate of some sort, and I want to dive into that for the entire hour with a very impressive person, formerly with Mumford and Sons.
00:03:21.000You are the co-founder of Dissident Dialogues, also the host of the Winston Marshall Show.
00:03:26.000Tell us what happened at the Oxford Union.
00:03:29.000Well, I was invited to talk about the issue of populism.
00:03:34.000Populism, of course, is something that's been, in my opinion, a big phenomenon, particularly from 2008.
00:03:42.000You could probably go further back still, but since the 2008 crash and the combination of social media becoming a big thing, populism has been a worldwide phenomenon.
00:03:54.000Particularly care about how ordinary people are written off as populist, as baskets of deplorables as, as your viewers will remember.
00:04:03.000I think that's all part of the same phenomenon and I wanted to talk uh, defend populism, so I agreed to go along.
00:04:14.000It's a pretty, pretty politically incorrect topic, I note if you, to defend populism in certain circles is is a taboo.
00:04:22.000About a week before the Oxford Union debate, I was informed that Pelosi was my opposition.
00:04:30.000I didn't know exactly what position she'd take.
00:04:33.000I didn't know whether she understood what the Oxford Union debate really was.
00:04:38.000I had a kind of, there would be a, you know, you could imagine going in, would she be on the, would it be the cliched version of populism, as we've heard time and time again?
00:04:50.000Or would it be a more robust attack on populism, which I think that there are intellectually and good attacks on populism that are worth engaging in, but I didn't know.
00:05:02.000And also, of course, learning that Pelosi was my opposition, I mean, is there anyone who personifies the elite that the populist movement in America is against better or more so than Nancy Pelosi?
00:05:20.000So of course, that changed what I was going to say.
00:05:25.000I had to address some of her hypocrisies.
00:05:29.000And so you get the speech that I made.
00:05:33.000And I mean, I can color in a little bit more about what happened.
00:05:46.000And then please, just give us the whole story, because rarely does someone as articulate and wise as yourself get an opportunity to cross-examine this bitter oligarch named Nancy Pelosi.
00:06:11.000They don't necessarily believe in what they're arguing, but they'll make the position.
00:06:16.000And usually the people who are in the Oxford Union, the students, end up being politicians.
00:06:21.000If you walk around the rooms of the Oxford Union, as we were guided through, we see photographs of Boris Johnson and other various later to become prime ministers.
00:06:34.000Excuse my English, that was terrible phrase there.
00:06:36.000And so you have these students who, a lot of them end up being successful politicians.
00:06:42.000Even the boxes that you see in the video were donated, I think, by Churchill.
00:06:49.000I think they were actually used in Parliament at one point.
00:08:52.000They were so convinced that this election was democracy itself on the table.
00:09:00.000That if Trump was to win this election, and they never used the word Trump, they couldn't even say his name, like Voldemort, he who must not be named.
00:09:08.000But they talked about Trump without using his name in such a way that anyone to even challenge that, it was like they'd never heard the other side of the argument.
00:09:21.000It was like they'd never, they couldn't even engage with maybe something that Trump had got right.
00:09:25.000It was, they were convinced that they had to defeat Trump to save democracy.
00:09:31.000And this is, I'm sure your viewers and yourself will have been paying close attention to this.
00:09:37.000They've literally been undermining democracy in order to, in their mind, save democracy.
00:09:43.000The famous example, as I mentioned in my speech, is taking on or trying to take off Trump from the ballot in both Maine and Colorado.
00:09:51.000And all of this, I mean, and I talk, in my speech as well, talk about how they undermine free speech, all in the name of democracy.
00:09:58.000Of course, democracy about free speech, Charlie, it's not democracy.
00:10:03.000So that was a very interesting insight.
00:10:04.000But the nuance I want to give to it is they were actually very nice.
00:10:48.000And I actually avoided bringing up the stock tips in my speech for a reason.
00:10:53.000I wanted to get her just on her political hypocrisy, of which there are many.
00:10:58.000So many, in fact, 10 minutes speech time wouldn't be enough.
00:11:03.000I would have loved to have, and I totally get the, you want to try to yield towards being polite and trying to be magnanimous and saying, and Ms. Pelosi, you are the oracle of DC.
00:11:15.000You outperform Warren Buffett, outperform the biggest names in finance.
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00:12:33.000I'm actually rather surprised that our esteemed opposition Congressman Pelosi is on that side of the motion.
00:12:39.000I thought the left was supposed to be anti-elite.
00:12:43.000I thought the left was supposed to be anti-establishment.
00:12:48.000Today, particularly in America, the globalist left have become the establishment.
00:12:56.000I suppose for Miss Percy to have taken this side of the motion, she'd be arguing herself out of a job.
00:13:04.000Just in your private and also the public dialogue, because I haven't had a chance to listen to Nancy Pelosi's response, which I believe is all just that Trump is a threat to democracy.
00:13:12.000Can they actually define very crisply what democracy is?
00:13:18.000Because every time they say democracy, they truly mean oligarchy.
00:13:31.000So, firstly, she cannot define democracy, as you rightly point out.
00:13:36.000She tries to, but she seems to go on a long ramble about all the things that are key to democracy, like free speech, free media, a lot of things that I happen to think Democrats have been deliberately undermining.
00:13:50.000But she isn't able to define democracy as representative, you know, I can't actually remember the exact Oxford English Dictionary definition of democracy, but representative government.
00:14:23.000It's the same as calling everyone racist.
00:14:27.000Now, this, in my opinion, is demagoguery.
00:14:30.000Demagoguery, of course, we are told Trump is a demagogue playing to the prejudice of ordinary people.
00:14:36.000But in her speech, Pelosi is practicing demagoguery, and I'll explain.
00:14:40.000Demagoguery, playing to the prejudices.
00:14:43.000In this case, Pelosi is playing to the prejudices of ordinary progressive Americans, of even the elites.
00:14:51.000The prejudice is that if you are a Trump supporter, if you are a MAGA, if you are even conservative or would dare consider voting Republican, you must be a racist.
00:15:07.000A prejudice that is so obviously ridiculous, not least because of CNN's poll last month, when they showed that the black vote for Trump has gone from something like 12% to something like 28%.
00:15:20.000That Hispanic vote for Trump has gone up to 48%.
00:15:24.000So, unless Pelosi thinks these are ethno-nationalists, this whole argument is ridiculous.
00:15:30.000But it's a continuation of Hillary's deplorables.
00:15:34.000It's writing off half the country as racist.
00:15:37.000And everyone's fed up with that dialogue.
00:15:40.000So, but that's not the worst thing in her speech, by the way.
00:15:44.000The worst thing is she says, she uses the word block.
00:15:48.000She says that these people who, I guess, don't vote Democrat are blocked, she used the word blocked, from making good decisions and choosing democratic policy by, and she uses, I'll call it here, God, gays, and guns.
00:16:08.000Well, more specifically, it's a muddle of words, but essentially she's saying God and their culture.
00:16:15.000Yes, she thinks that God and the culture of half of Americans is stopping them from voting Democrat.
00:16:22.000What is so frustrating for me or frustrating about hearing that is that she is completely unreconstructed from 2016.
00:16:31.000When Trump won, instead of some much needed self-reflection about why he won, why their policy wasn't working, she still is of the assumption that people are too uneducated.
00:16:46.000This is another thing we hear all the time, and she said it in a speech: the uneducated, as if they're not smart enough, they're not educated enough to see the correct choices between them.
00:16:59.000It's such arrogance, and it's really sickening, actually.
00:18:16.000And it is very similar to something I said to a far lower-profile individual, a college student at University of Utah, where he said, Charlie, the right conservatives are all about the rich and the powerful.
00:18:26.000And he never heard the argument that the wealthiest counties in Washington, D.C., over around the country, overwhelmingly vote for the Democrat Party.
00:18:35.000The wealthiest counties are around Washington, D.C. You highlight this talking about the biggest companies are in cahoots with big governments.
00:18:46.000They're not there to actually regulate these companies or break them apart, but instead to protect them.
00:19:39.000The F-word you're not allowed to say, Winston Marshall.
00:19:43.000Yeah, well, so the point I'm trying to make here, I'm sure everyone's already picked up on, is that, well, how can if you're supposed to represent the people, how exactly are you supposed to represent the people and also take money from these giant corporations?
00:20:00.000These corporations wouldn't give you money if it wouldn't pay off.
00:20:05.000So how can you represent the people and simultaneously these corporations?
00:20:32.000No, I think that's a smart point, Winston.
00:20:34.000I do want to challenge one part about the gun issue, that the difference is that there are tens of millions of gun owners that represent the gun lobby.
00:20:43.000There are not tens of millions of enthusiastic Pfizer supporters in the country.
00:20:47.000So I totally understand the connection you're trying to make there.
00:20:50.000I'm part of the gun lobby because I own a lot of guns and I want to see not a lot of Second Amendment restrictions.
00:20:56.000However, I will say, though, that there really is not a populist movement on the left as it used to be.
00:21:02.000The Bernie Sanders wing of the Democrat Party has been muted.
00:22:29.000So there's aspects of that movement that have come across the right-wing populization because there's a lot of people, whether they think that these solutions are left or right-wing economically, they might agree on what the problem is, which is what the populism is.
00:23:27.000But then I would say that all political movements are a danger to pluralism.
00:23:32.000The very recent example of that is the 2023, I think it was 2023, it might have even been earlier this year, when the Supreme Court judged that Harvard were breaking the constitution by not allow or by how they treated Asian applicants to their university, Harvard and other universities.
00:24:15.000Well, in simple terms, and again, this is what I argue in my speech, what is the point in universal suffrage if not to keep elites in check?
00:24:24.000What is the point in universal suffrage if not to keep our political leaders accountable?
00:26:14.000So the contention, I suppose, from people like Pelosi, and I want to give her an opportunity to defend herself again so people can hear this.
00:26:23.000She says democracy itself is on the ballot in America.
00:26:28.000Donald Trump, who I'm obviously an enthusiastic supporter of, running for office and going through the means of trying to win the election again is the most small deed democratic thing one can do.
00:26:41.000We think democracy is on a ballot in America.
00:26:45.000It's a victory that we must win because it will only make matters worse if they have another stay at what they're doing to the courts in our country, the fear that they're instilling in jourists in our country,
00:27:00.000the suppression of the vote in our country, the role of their big, dark, rich billionaire donors who don't want to pay taxes, suffocating the airways from the fossil fuel industry and the gun industry and the rest of that.
00:27:16.000So money and populism sadly have gone together with this ethno-nationalist anti-what they call elite, which we call education, free press, and the rest.
00:27:40.000She says, well, the billionaires running ads, the wealthiest people absent Elon Musk in America are all behind the Democrat Party, Winston Marshall.
00:27:50.000And not only that, I think Biden is the biggest recipient of dark billionaire money in American politics today.
00:28:00.000What happened after 2016 is that, and it's continuing today, the Democrats seem to have given up on the fact that they can persuade people and they've mobilized all of the institutions which they run.
00:28:14.000So that's everything from the media, mainstream media.
00:28:18.000The perfect example of that is how they snuffed out.
00:28:22.000No one reported on the Hunter Biden laptop story, which was but a month before the 2020 presidential election.
00:28:30.000The only people to do so were the New York Post.
00:28:33.000And that's just one example of how the mainstream media not only showed their contempt for democracy, but also the people.
00:28:44.000But that story continues with how everything we saw through the Twitter files about how big tech are responding.
00:28:53.000So all of tech was mobilized against the people.
00:28:59.000We only have an insight, really, apart from little bits here and there into what happened at Twitter because of Elon Musk's purchase of the company.
00:29:07.000We saw through the Twitter files, then continued how intelligents were contacting big Twitter and others to try and snuff out stories, snuff out anyone who went against government narrative on COVID.
00:29:24.000But also we saw exposed, Matt Taibi did a fantastic exposing of the Hamilton 68 project and Russia Gates, how they had to bring into question the legitimacy of 2060 of Trump's 2016 victory.
00:29:41.000So they, and that's not just the start of it.
00:29:45.000So Winston, what can be done to unite then the populist instincts of the left and the right to better our societies in the West?
00:29:54.000What can we agree on to try and have a successful movement against these corrupt and less than desirable elites and our, let's say, infected ruling class, Winston?
00:30:11.000Well, you'd be better equipped to answer that for your great country, a country, of course, that I love very deeply.
00:30:17.000I think one thing that can be done is to stop being politically correct, stop worrying about telling the uncomfortable truths.
00:30:28.000And that even means addressing mistakes made on whatever side you happen to be on, right or left, populist or anti-populist.
00:30:36.000I think a bit more honesty would go a long way.
00:30:41.000But honestly, the real problem lies with the blinkered worldview of these elites who are desperately clinging to power.
00:30:50.000And I'm not sure exactly what can be done for people like Madame Pelosi.
00:30:56.000I don't think that they are prepared to engage.
00:31:00.000We saw only last week, she recommended that Biden not get on stage with Trump for the debates before the election.
00:31:08.000These people don't even want discourse.
00:31:24.000It's very important when we see corruption like we see about in these elites, it's tempting to become anti-that.
00:31:33.000And of course, I'm against that, but we don't want to become what they are.
00:31:38.000We want to be the example that they're not, which means engaging with political opponents, which means assuming whenever possible the best or having good faith conversations with people who might have completely different visions of the future and finding common ground because I think the populist of right and left in your country and mine often agree on what the problems are.
00:32:03.000I know this, what I'm talking about seems very idealistic and utopian, but what can I possibly say?
00:32:13.000So, in closing here, Winston, final impressions from your dialogue with Nancy Pelosi and did they determine a winner?
00:32:22.000Well, we got absolutely whooped in the room.
00:32:26.000I think we lost like something 170 to 60.
00:32:30.000You could tell that the room, there's at one point she starts during my speech, she starts ranting about January 6th and the room applaud her.
00:32:42.000That's not to say there weren't people in the room who were on my side at the end of the debate.
00:32:48.000Maybe a dozen young lads, maybe some of them listen to your podcast, Charlie, came up and were grateful that I said the uncomfortable stuff.
00:32:57.000But if you look at the response online, it's been pretty impressive.
00:33:02.000I've had the displeasure of viral moments before, and I would say that this one has been almost 100% positive because I think there's truth in what I'm saying.
00:33:14.000I think that people are resonating with the basics of my argument.
00:33:19.000And there hasn't really been a huge attack on the content of what my saying from the other side.
00:33:26.000And maybe it's, you know, it's been covered in alternative media, but and I've done Piers Morgan and Rogan mentioned it, and you're talking about it, but it's been completely ignored in mainstream media, despite its massive virality online.
00:33:42.000That tells us a lot about what's going on in mainstream media, at least.
00:33:49.000But I guess, yeah, I think that's, well, I think it's been a positive moment anyway.