The Charlie Kirk Show - July 26, 2023


The Birthright Citizenship Scam + The DeSantis Tragedy with Michael Anton and Mike Cernovich


Episode Stats


Length

36 minutes

Words per minute

189.24564

Word count

6,857

Sentence count

504

Harmful content

Misogyny

7

sentences flagged

Toxicity

12

sentences flagged

Hate speech

4

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

On this episode of The Charlie Kirk Show, Michael Anton joins us to talk about birthright citizenship and the 14th Amendment, and then we are joined by Mike Cernovich to talk the tragedy of the DeSantis campaign.

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Charlie Kirk Show" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, today the Charlie Kirk show.
00:00:01.000 Michael Anton joins us talking about birthright citizenship.
00:00:04.000 We talk about the 14th Amendment, and then we are joined by Mike Cernovich to talk about the tragedy of the DeSantis campaign.
00:00:15.000 Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:00:18.000 Subscribe to our podcast.
00:00:20.000 Open up your podcast app and type in Charlie Kirk show.
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00:00:25.000 That is tpusa.com.
00:00:27.000 Start a high school or college chapter today at tpusa.com.
00:00:30.000 Become a member, members.charliekirk.com and listen to the end of this episode for a special giveaway opportunity.
00:00:37.000 Buckle up, everybody.
00:00:38.000 Here we go.
00:00:39.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
00:00:41.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
00:00:43.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
00:00:46.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
00:00:49.000 I want to thank Charlie.
00:00:50.000 He's an incredible guy.
00:00:51.000 His spirit, his love of this country.
00:00:53.000 He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.
00:00:58.000 Turning point USA. 0.65
00:01:00.000 We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:01:09.000 That's why we are here.
00:01:11.000 Brought to you by the Loan Experts I Trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandTodd.com.
00:01:20.000 There's some breaking news.
00:01:22.000 We're not going to emphasize this, but in addition to the federal charges that we expect against Donald Trump, the extent of which we are not sure, Georgia looks like it is winding up.
00:01:32.000 Long wind up to use a baseball pitcher analogy.
00:01:36.000 Fulton County case against Trump might be the most serious yet.
00:01:39.000 Fanny Willis is ready to go all in, eyeing criminal solicitation charges and Trump inquiry of criminal conspiracy based on a phone call where he said, Can you go find votes?
00:01:50.000 Find votes. 0.89
00:01:51.000 So that is getting really wound up.
00:01:53.000 So you're going to have New York with Alvin Bragg.
00:01:55.000 You're going to have Department of Justice, Florida documents, and then you're going to have Department of Justice, whether it be insurrection, seditious conspiracy, rebellion, January 6th related stuff remains to be seen.
00:02:08.000 And then we have Georgia.
00:02:12.000 And in Georgia, the governor, Brian Kemp, even though he's a Republican, he hates Trump and vice versa.
00:02:18.000 He's not able to pardon Donald Trump.
00:02:21.000 There's a pardon board of people that are all appointed by the governor, and we've controlled that office for the last 20 years, but somehow the pardon board isn't one that would just shoot down a sham prosecution like this, especially how Donald Trump has gone scorched earth against the good old boys network in the state of Georgia.
00:02:41.000 Georgia has actually more counties per capita than any state in the country.
00:02:47.000 There's a lot of localized political power in Georgia.
00:02:50.000 A lot of dog catchers, mosquito abatement district school board members, mayors that you have to Brown knows to be able to win in Georgia. 0.85
00:03:08.000 And by the way, Donald Trump said, hey, can you go find me?
00:03:13.000 He did not say go steal or fabricate or find me.
00:03:18.000 And I believe the phone call was recorded by Brad Rothensberger.
00:03:24.000 Georgia was the most Democrat state in the country for a century after the Civil War.
00:03:30.000 Georgia is a very unusual state.
00:03:32.000 It has a lot of Hollywood influence because of the tax incentive structure to have films in the Buckhead area.
00:03:40.000 Obviously, it has a significant black population.
00:03:44.000 And Atlanta, I'll be very honest.
00:03:46.000 Atlanta is not my favorite place.
00:03:48.000 I love Georgia.
00:03:49.000 Georgia is a great state.
00:03:50.000 I do not like Atlanta.
00:03:52.000 Atlanta is like top three cities where I'm just not happy to be there.
00:03:56.000 I'll be honest.
00:03:56.000 Not a great place.
00:03:58.000 But I love Georgia.
00:03:59.000 Georgia has some of the most beautiful places in the world.
00:04:02.000 Savannah, Georgia, for example, is just an extraordinary city.
00:04:06.000 Augusta is really nice.
00:04:08.000 And so Georgia is a great place.
00:04:10.000 Atlanta's not my favorite place.
00:04:11.000 But Georgia has turned, it largely turned because of mass mail and voting.
00:04:14.000 In 2018, Georgia had 248,000 mail-in ballots.
00:04:18.000 And now this last cycle, they had somewhere between 2.4 to 2.5 million.
00:04:22.000 We can get the exact number, but it was about a tenfold increase.
00:04:24.000 Mass mail and voting. 1.00
00:04:26.000 Stacey Abrams, who we used to mock, became this incredibly vicious community organizer. 0.99
00:04:32.000 She threatened to sue Brian Kemp and not threaten. 0.97
00:04:35.000 She actually was suing Brian Kemp and Roffensperger.
00:04:37.000 They signed a consent decree, different than the RNC's consent decree from multiple decades ago, that basically Brian Kemp and Raufensberger relaxed the signature verification threshold.
00:04:47.000 This happened coincidentally right before COVID was a thing.
00:04:50.000 This is all in the spring of 2020.
00:04:51.000 This is the secret, not the secret, but the kind of just not talked about way that we lost Georgia.
00:04:58.000 So you have all these dynamics happening.
00:05:00.000 And just remember the time and sequence events.
00:05:02.000 All this is tied together.
00:05:03.000 It's all harmonized, right?
00:05:06.000 So Georgia is a state that we thought we were going to win automatically.
00:05:09.000 But if you were reading all the kind of intelligentsia left-wing blogs, New York Times and all this, they were incredibly bullish on Georgia in August and September, October 2020.
00:05:18.000 I personally dismissed it.
00:05:19.000 I thought it was just kind of like, oh, we're going to win Texas type stuff.
00:05:22.000 And they always like fall 8 to 15 points short.
00:05:25.000 But they knew something was in.
00:05:26.000 They knew the fix was in as far as the mass mail and voting.
00:05:29.000 The Trump campaign did not dedicate a lot of time, energy, or resources.
00:05:32.000 Remember, Obama nearly won Georgia in 2008.
00:05:35.000 That's a little bit deceiving because it was Obama 08. 0.51
00:05:38.000 McCain was an awful candidate, high black turnout, right? 1.00
00:05:41.000 But remember, it wasn't just the presidency. 0.97
00:05:46.000 That was very disappointing.
00:05:47.000 But we should have had Senator David Perdue win without a runoff.
00:05:52.000 So then we go to January 5th, not January 6th.
00:05:55.000 People forget this.
00:05:56.000 January 5th was the runoff.
00:06:00.000 January 5th was the Georgia runoff.
00:06:03.000 The day before, obviously, all the events on January 6th.
00:06:06.000 January 5th, you had Kelly Loeffler and David Perdue both fall short in the runoff to Raphael Warnock and John Ossif, which ceded control of the United States Senate.
00:06:18.000 A Senate that could have at least slowed down some of the Biden nominees, a Senate that could have locked down this Katangi Brown Jackson nut case that is now in the Supreme Court.
00:06:26.000 So the Georgia reconfiguration was a master plan by Mark Elias and Stacey Abrams and Lorene Powell Jobs and George Soros and Arabella Advisors and America Votes.
00:06:38.000 And I mean, of course, they had all the Fulton County, Cobb County, slowing down, stopping to count ballots.
00:06:44.000 But Donald Trump made a certain calculation.
00:06:47.000 This helped, by the way, Donald Trump in states like Ohio.
00:06:50.000 Going after the good old boys network in certain states helped Donald Trump.
00:06:54.000 It hurt him significantly in Georgia.
00:06:57.000 If you do not pander to the southern hospitality, not just southern hospitality, but it says relationships are a big deal south of the Mason-Dixon line in politics.
00:07:06.000 They just are.
00:07:07.000 There's a lot of graft.
00:07:09.000 And both parties, by the way, but especially the Republican Party.
00:07:11.000 A lot of graft, a lot of corruption, a lot of backslapping.
00:07:13.000 Okay, now we have Michael Anton, as I set that up on a separate topic, who I think is the most gifted and talented essayist and writer in the conservative movement.
00:07:22.000 Michael, welcome to the program.
00:07:24.000 I want to talk specifically about the idea of birthright citizenship, 14th Amendment.
00:07:30.000 Where do people get this most wrong?
00:07:34.000 Well, they interpret a clause in the middle, a parenthetical clause that reads, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in the 14th Amendment as requiring birthright citizenship when that is not what the drafters of the 14th Amendment intended.
00:07:52.000 Now, this gets very much into the weeds.
00:07:54.000 I've written about it at length.
00:07:56.000 So what the court said in Wong Kim Arc was that the child of legal permanent residence could be allowed back in.
00:08:03.000 It only ruled on that question.
00:08:05.000 It did not rule on the question of the legal status of the children of illegal immigrants, people who crossed the border illegally, who overstayed a visa, who were vacationing or working temporarily in the United States, but without any kind of legal status to reside in the United States.
00:08:21.000 That has never been decided on not only by the Supreme Court, but by the court at any level.
00:08:26.000 So what happened is sometime in the middle of the 20th century, after World War II, and really in the 60s, the federal bureaucracy just started granting citizenship to anyone born.
00:08:37.000 And remember, this is a complicated issue because there's a state question, right?
00:08:42.000 There's still no such thing as a federal birth certificate.
00:08:44.000 Any of us who lived through Obama birth certificate brouhaha of 2008, 2012 remembers this, right?
00:08:52.000 Birth certificates are issued by the states.
00:08:55.000 And without being told by any higher authority, whether court or executive authority, the states would just say, you know, we can certify that you were born in the United States.
00:09:05.000 And then the federal government started to say, well, if your state birth certificate says you were born in the United States, we're going to say that that amounts to citizenship.
00:09:12.000 Now, again, this is just something that the bureaucracy, the government, decided to do on its own without being told.
00:09:19.000 Granted, that many people in the Democratic Party and the Republican Party liked the outcome of the policy, so they declined to stop it.
00:09:26.000 And now, and for, I don't know, at least a generation, they have been pretending that this was intended by law and intended by the 14th Amendment all along.
00:09:36.000 But in fact, that's not true.
00:09:38.000 There's no law that says this.
00:09:39.000 There's no court decision that says this.
00:09:41.000 There's not even an executive order that says this.
00:09:44.000 And so as a result, you get not only the normal abuse that we're used to, that is to say, you know, people crossing the border illegally, obviously coming for a better life.
00:09:54.000 I understand why people come from south of the border or why many, or if not most, people come from south of the border into the United States, because they're coming from poorer countries, often much more violent and dangerous countries, and they know they're going to have a better life for themselves and for their children. 0.96
00:10:08.000 But it still breaks U.S. law, and there is no legal reason for their children to have citizenship simply by virtue of being born here.
00:10:17.000 Let me ask you, Michael, so this has not been in the last hundred years, what I'm going to understand, challenged at the United States Supreme Court.
00:10:23.000 I mean, it's just, this is not even an executive order.
00:10:26.000 This is just bureaucratic precedent that the administrative state decided upon that.
00:10:30.000 Essentially, the federal government for a long time has just decided if you can produce a state birth certificate that affirms that you were born on U.S. soil, you're a U.S. citizen.
00:10:41.000 They've never been told to do this by Congress, by the Constitution, or by the courts, or even by executive order.
00:10:46.000 They just do it.
00:10:48.000 This is one of the most important things for a civilization to basically get right.
00:10:52.000 How rare is this in the Western world?
00:10:54.000 I mean, France, Spain have got rid of birthright citizenship?
00:10:58.000 I wish I'd known you were going to ask that because I had the exact numbers for a piece that I wrote.
00:11:02.000 And I don't know, but it's about 80% of countries do not offer birthright citizenship, and something about like 20% do.
00:11:10.000 And those 20% are overwhelmingly in the Western Hemisphere, although not exclusively.
00:11:15.000 But pretty much nobody in Europe, Asia, the rest of the world offers this.
00:11:20.000 And if you go not just by number of countries, but by population, you know, because some countries are bigger than others, it's something like almost 90% of the world's population live in a country that does not offer birthright citizenship.
00:11:32.000 And one other important fact, countries have had it and then moved away from it, have gotten rid of it.
00:11:37.000 But in the last 50, 60, 70 years, no country has moved in the direction of more birthright citizenship.
00:11:43.000 They've only moved in the direction of restricting it.
00:11:45.000 So, Michael, is it time for a Supreme Court challenge, considering the Supreme Court is more sane than insane right now?
00:11:53.000 Well, you know, I usually am I'm wary of declaiming on things like that under my own name because I don't watch the court carefully.
00:12:00.000 I know some people who really understand the court extremely well.
00:12:03.000 I'll just name one name you're probably familiar with.
00:12:05.000 That's Theo Wald, who's now the Solicitor General of Idaho.
00:12:08.000 He's a close friend and a lawyer, and his wife is a lawyer.
00:12:11.000 And, you know, he's tied in, and he would have a much better sense of what the likely outcome of a challenge is.
00:12:18.000 I think, though, that the way to approach this is to start small.
00:12:23.000 and go for the obvious abuses first.
00:12:26.000 Now, obviously, with the Biden administration in power, none of this is going to happen.
00:12:30.000 But the most obvious abuse is so-called birth tourism, where people, not poor people, but by definition, rich or at least affluent people from Russia and China scheduled to have babies in the United States.
00:12:44.000 Southern California is a big destination, as is southern Florida.
00:12:47.000 So they fly in six weeks before the birth.
00:12:50.000 There are whole hospitals and industries that are geared toward taking care of these people.
00:12:55.000 They have the birth.
00:12:56.000 They get their child a U.S. birth certificate.
00:12:59.000 They make sure to go and get a passport as quickly as possible.
00:13:03.000 And then they go home, you know, with the idea that, well, they need the option.
00:13:08.000 They can always come back essentially on the backs of their child status.
00:13:12.000 That is an obvious abuse of the system that even if you believed the framers of the 14th Amendment intended birthright citizenship for the children of illegals, which I don't believe and I don't think the text supports.
00:13:23.000 But even if you believed that, you'd have to admit that they certainly did not intend for birth tourism in the age of jumbo jetliners flying in rich people from hostile or adversarial countries to take advantage of U.S. citizenship.
00:13:39.000 I don't want to say laws because these are not the laws, but misguided citizenship practices.
00:13:43.000 So I would start there with that obvious abuse where you're going to get 80% at least of the American people agreeing this is terrible.
00:13:50.000 This should not take place.
00:13:52.000 These are people exploiting us.
00:13:54.000 We have to stop that and then work your way up toward the correction of the more widespread abuses.
00:14:01.000 This is the big, the buried lead, and it ties to your other story here, Michael.
00:14:05.000 The deep state is gearing up to fight a second Trump presidency.
00:14:07.000 You think about gay marriage, Obergofaul, this issue.
00:14:10.000 Congress is not participating in this.
00:14:12.000 Roe versus Wade, this is administrative state and courts and largely bureaucrats that are unelected, unaccountable, and this fourth branch of government, this Leviathan that is calling shots.
00:14:23.000 So Michael, tell us about this article you wrote for The Telegraph.
00:14:26.000 The Deep State is gearing up to fight a second Trump presidency.
00:14:29.000 Tell us about this.
00:14:31.000 Well, look, I mean, I'm sort of on record saying that I don't expect a second Trump presidency to happen.
00:14:36.000 And I hope I don't upset any of my Trump supporting friends by saying that.
00:14:40.000 And I'm not saying that because, you know, out of any disdain for Trump or for the movement or for the things that he represents.
00:14:46.000 I just think that the forces arrayed against him are incredibly strong.
00:14:50.000 And I don't see the counterforce arrayed against him as being nearly as strong to overcome what the deep state, plus not just the deep state, but what the tech companies and what the financial firms and what the foundations and the media and every, you know, and the Zuckerbucks, and you name it, can throw against him.
00:15:05.000 Plus, all you have to do is read what these people say.
00:15:09.000 And I unfortunately do maybe more of that than I should.
00:15:12.000 But they're quite clear that they think Donald Trump is the biggest threat to America since 9-11 or even before that, bigger than Pearl Harbor, I've heard some people say it.
00:15:21.000 And so they therefore think that they're justified in doing absolutely anything to stop him.
00:15:26.000 And I take them seriously when they say that.
00:15:29.000 And that means that they'll use any and all of their powers to make sure that there isn't another Trump presidency.
00:15:34.000 And since they have a lot of powers, I unfortunately take seriously the fact that I think they can block it.
00:15:40.000 And I think they will block it and intend to block it.
00:15:42.000 And what I'm not yet seeing is enough countervailing force, you know, and not just force, but like the political savvy, the institutional savvy, the institutional infrastructure, the legal challenges to all these voting changes that make things easier for Democrats and harder on Republicans and so on and so on and so forth.
00:16:01.000 I'm not seeing enough organization money and serious effort to oppose that.
00:16:05.000 And so right now it looks like a pretty lopsided fight.
00:16:08.000 Yeah, no, I agree.
00:16:09.000 And by the way, you want to talk about someone who understands Machiavelli very well.
00:16:14.000 And I'm going to learn about a lot about Machiavelli in the next couple of months.
00:16:17.000 It's Michael Anton who sees this super fairly looking at this with prudence and practical judgment and with wisdom and not hopium.
00:16:24.000 Anything you want to plug?
00:16:25.000 Books, articles?
00:16:27.000 I'm working on a lot of stuff right now.
00:16:29.000 I guess my next thing is, well, you can look at something I just published on Compact called The Pessimistic Case for the Future.
00:16:35.000 It's a little bit of a downer, but I hope it stirs thought.
00:16:38.000 It's also the first chapter in a brand new book published by the Claremont Institute, edited by my colleague Arthur Millick, that I think 18 authors, all of which are going into different issues of why conservatism needs to change called Up from Conservatism.
00:16:54.000 And then one other thing is my next article, which I'm finishing now, which will be out in the Claremont Review of Books, I guess in the next issue.
00:17:01.000 So let's say a month or so, is a review of Patrick Denin's, I think, very important book called Regime Change.
00:17:06.000 Oh, yeah.
00:17:07.000 It's a game changer.
00:17:08.000 Michael, thank you for taking time.
00:17:10.000 Look forward to the class and hope to have you on again soon.
00:17:12.000 And everybody should read everything he has published.
00:17:15.000 You will learn something.
00:17:16.000 Michael, thanks so much.
00:17:17.000 Thanks a lot.
00:17:19.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.
00:17:21.000 Do you believe in our founders' vision for America, that our republic will only survive if we are an educated and informed people who know our rights and our duties?
00:17:28.000 Since 1844, Hillsdale College has sought to educate all who wish to learn about these timeless principles of self-government.
00:17:35.000 For more than 50 years, the college has worked to spread that mission by sending In Primus their Digest of Liberty to millions of Americans, including me.
00:17:42.000 In Primus features some of the best speeches given at Hillsdale events, and now an audio version of the popular speech digest is available in a new podcast of the same name.
00:17:51.000 And like print publications in Primus, the podcast is always free.
00:17:54.000 You can hear the best arguments from speakers such as Christopher Ruffo, Molly Hemingway, Mark Stein, Hillsdale College President Larry Piarn, among others, read by Hillsdale students.
00:18:03.000 I started listening to In Primus and now my friends at Hillsdale, and I want you to listen for free as well.
00:18:09.000 You can subscribe today to listen in at Primus at charlieforhillsdale.com.
00:18:12.000 That is charlieforhillsdale.com.
00:18:14.000 They do an excellent job.
00:18:15.000 It is the best college in America, Hillsdale College, CharlieForhillsdale.com.
00:18:22.000 Okay, joining us now is Mike Cernovich.
00:18:25.000 Mike, I think, is one of the smartest people in the movement.
00:18:28.000 I love how honest he is on social media, and he sees things as they are, and he doesn't really care if he gets hate for it because he's honest.
00:18:36.000 Mike, thank you for taking time.
00:18:38.000 Mike, you've been very outspoken regarding the DeSantis campaign.
00:18:42.000 I consider it a tragedy the last couple months.
00:18:45.000 And I'm a massive supporter of what Governor DeSantis has done in Florida.
00:18:50.000 I don't like to see people underperform their potential, which is certainly what has happened with the DeSantis campaign.
00:18:56.000 Mike Cernovich, what's going on in Team DeSantis?
00:18:59.000 He's maybe the first candidate that became less popular when he ran for office.
00:19:05.000 There was a lot of enthusiasm from people, myself included, with the DeSantis campaign because we wanted a competitive primary.
00:19:14.000 We wanted a primary, not a coronation.
00:19:17.000 When I said that, that made a lot of people maybe who are more casual into politics angry. 1.00
00:19:23.000 You're a traitor. 0.98
00:19:24.000 You must hate Trump, not realizing that this is the era of coronations. 1.00
00:19:29.000 It's not the era of kings.
00:19:30.000 This is a primary.
00:19:31.000 We wanted to be competitive.
00:19:33.000 And now there's no competitive primary.
00:19:36.000 I've never seen a campaign altered like this in my lifetime.
00:19:39.000 Some people are comparing it to Scott Scott Walker, who is a great governor.
00:19:43.000 He ran for office, realizing it was a national scene, completely different vibe.
00:19:49.000 So, if you're me, you're other people, you're pretty frustrated because you see a lot of denial from DeSantis supporters.
00:19:56.000 You see a lot of frustration from them, a lot of rage.
00:19:59.000 Even people that I consider friends for many, many years, nitpicking little sub-tweets about me, I can tell where they're being insulting, being condescending.
00:20:12.000 And I think that fundamentally, you know, so rather than just why am I, why am I, here's what they did wrong.
00:20:16.000 Fundamentally, the failure of the DeSantis campaign was that they didn't understand and they still don't understand the MAGA energy that existed in 2015 and in 2016.
00:20:29.000 They didn't understand that it was fun.
00:20:32.000 One of the reasons Trump won an unprecedented election, the close election, an election that could have gone either way, and that the regime didn't expect him to win, or else they would have done more shenanigans like they did in 2020, was if you just looked, who do you want to be with, right?
00:20:50.000 So much of politics is tribalism.
00:20:53.000 And so many people who are conservative, they think they're real like intellectuals, right?
00:20:58.000 That's the snobbery that I flagged in a number of my tweets that I've noticed as part of the conservative movement is these guys on Twitter, they're so haughty.
00:21:06.000 And I think I've read the great books, and there's nothing I'm reading from your tweet that is so freaking amazing that I think, where's this guy's bull?
00:21:15.000 This person, a brilliant articulator, wonderful insight.
00:21:19.000 They're snobs.
00:21:21.000 What happened is all the snobs that existed in 2015, 2016, they hitch their wagon to DeSantis. 0.89
00:21:29.000 These people, they're insufferable.
00:21:31.000 They yell at me, even though if anybody had followed along, super pro DeSantis, everything I say is good about DeSantis.
00:21:39.000 I'm one of the only people who could be pro to Santis, but also still exist in MAGA world, just because, like, as you said at the intro, people know that I'm kind of a loose cannon, wild card.
00:21:49.000 Call it whatever you want, but there's just some people who are able to exist back.
00:21:55.000 And that's what I love about you, Mike, is that there's no agenda except the truth.
00:21:58.000 And I think you're diagnosing it perfectly.
00:22:01.000 First of all, there's these surprisingly hostile snobs that are anything but DeSantis.
00:22:09.000 And they're not even allowing you to have any sort of criticism towards the campaign.
00:22:13.000 It's kind of like everything is fine and everything is great and everything is fine.
00:22:16.000 And I just, I'm like, guys, no, it's actually not like two things can simultaneously be true, by the way, which is I think that I'm behind President Donald Trump, but I also really like Governor DeSantis and I think he's done a wonderful job.
00:22:30.000 And it's almost as if that can't, those cannot simultaneously exist, right, in the same universe.
00:22:38.000 And, you know, the we had a dialogue with Dave Rubin the other day.
00:22:42.000 And then privately, I've talked to some people and somebody said, well, Charlie, what do you think DeSantis could be doing differently?
00:22:48.000 Like, what could he change?
00:22:50.000 So, Mike, one or two things.
00:22:52.000 What could he change?
00:22:53.000 I have a whole list of things that he could change, but what could he change?
00:22:57.000 Right now, the perception, and again, the DeSantis people are going to be all down my throat when you post this clip, right?
00:23:04.000 I can't wait to, I can't wait to watch them prove me right in real time.
00:23:08.000 The perception is these are snobs, bickering people who think that they're better than everyone else.
00:23:12.000 They think they're better than MAGA people.
00:23:14.000 They think they're better than Trump.
00:23:16.000 And they have that DC wanted.
00:23:19.000 I call them like elite.
00:23:20.000 Like, who are these people, right?
00:23:21.000 Like, why do you think you're elite?
00:23:22.000 That's, that's when I see these people, their haughty tone and the nastiness that they spread towards other people.
00:23:28.000 And to me, I think, like, why do you think you're so special?
00:23:31.000 What is it about your achievement in life that makes you think that you can talk down to people in the way that they do?
00:23:38.000 I don't know how you fix that.
00:23:39.000 That's a cultural problem.
00:23:40.000 There's a command.
00:23:41.000 I totally agree with you.
00:23:42.000 I think that is exactly right.
00:23:44.000 Please continue.
00:23:46.000 Right. 0.97
00:23:46.000 So you have a command and control problem and a culture problem. 0.97
00:23:49.000 So if I'm handling messaging with the DeSantis people, I would say, why are you bickering with people who are 80% pro DeSantis because they criticize DeSantis?
00:23:58.000 Don Jr. follows Mike Cernovich, retweets Mike Cernovich.
00:24:00.000 Read what Mike Cernovich has said about President Trump, right?
00:24:03.000 You got to be an adult.
00:24:05.000 You know, if you're in the campaign for DeSantis, you got to be an adult.
00:24:08.000 Guess what?
00:24:08.000 You're running for a big boy office.
00:24:10.000 You want to have the power over the nuclear, which you're going to have people who come at you aggressively.
00:24:17.000 And if you're going to cry about that and throw a tantrum about that, this can be a problem.
00:24:20.000 Now, of course, the flip side is I've had they're very robotic.
00:24:24.000 So I don't know if it's a botnet or they're just on group tax, but I've noticed a bunch of them go, oh, you just Cernovich, you can't take mean tweets.
00:24:31.000 And I see that same coordinated, inauthentic messaging.
00:24:36.000 So everything about the campaign is inauthentic messaging.
00:24:39.000 I don't know if you guys have that memo or you read that memo yesterday that I tweeted that was full of just corporate gobbledygook, the kind of memo that you get when you work at a big corporation.
00:24:50.000 There's no enthusiasm, right?
00:24:52.000 So if you back DeSantis, and I could have done this, you know, I was enthusiastic and then I just saw the campaign didn't really get it.
00:24:59.000 You have to really believe in what you're selling, right?
00:25:03.000 You're selling a candidate.
00:25:05.000 To sell a candidate, you have to create alliances, maybe with people you don't agree with on everything, but you go, you know, that guy, he's not an enemy, right?
00:25:13.000 You got to realize there's a difference between an enemy and someone who's not a friend.
00:25:18.000 And then there's people like me who are friendly.
00:25:20.000 So the DeSantis people, they treat friendlies like enemies.
00:25:24.000 And then one of them said, well, we're glad we got rid of you.
00:25:26.000 Meanwhile, I'm thinking, but I was never with you.
00:25:28.000 I was just somebody friendly to DeSantis.
00:25:30.000 So they need a whole image makeover, a whole messaging makeover.
00:25:35.000 They need a complete reform of the command and control happening where it takes three days for a tweet to go out.
00:25:41.000 So let's take a concrete example.
00:25:44.000 The sound of freedom.
00:25:46.000 Trending on Twitter.
00:25:48.000 Biggest story ever: $100 million blockbuster film.
00:25:51.000 I said, Why doesn't DeSantis in his campaign just tweet a copy of a movie ticket stub, date night, important issue?
00:26:00.000 That would have been saturation coverage all weekend.
00:26:03.000 Oh, DeSantis.
00:26:05.000 Easy.
00:26:06.000 Easy.
00:26:07.000 I could just, I could come up with you too.
00:26:09.000 I mean, I, I, I, I mean, I, I, I came, by the way, but Mike, when I come up with these ideas, I text some of the DeSantis people.
00:26:14.000 They're like, oh, you don't know what you're talking about.
00:26:15.000 I'm like, guys, look, I didn't go to college.
00:26:18.000 I know you don't think highly of me.
00:26:19.000 I kind of knew, do know what I'm talking about.
00:26:21.000 Like, turning points, not nothing, right?
00:26:23.000 I mean, we kind of have this thing.
00:26:25.000 We had 7,000 people in a room, sort of important, right?
00:26:30.000 There were a lot of donors, financiers, media.
00:26:32.000 And not only did they not come, but the snobbery from his allies were like, oh, it's just a MAGA event.
00:26:38.000 I'm like, well, you kind of need to win these people over too, guys.
00:26:42.000 Like, what population do you think you're going to win the nomination over, right?
00:26:46.000 We offered the red carpet.
00:26:48.000 How was your take, Mike, when Ron DeSantis decided to snub turning point action?
00:26:54.000 Right.
00:26:54.000 So what you mention is people didn't learn anything from 2015, 2016.
00:27:00.000 I watched you go from basically a one-man band and then the GOP convention happened in 2016 and you realized President Trump was it.
00:27:07.000 You were helping John Jr.
00:27:09.000 The media is writing hit pieces.
00:27:10.000 Oh, there's only 100 people in Turning Point.
00:27:12.000 It's actually not a big organization.
00:27:15.000 But they don't know any of this, right?
00:27:17.000 So that's what I mean by their snobbery is so unearned.
00:27:21.000 Because why, like, if you've never built a brand, if you don't have any notoriety, if you don't have any impact, then why do you think you know more than people who do?
00:27:29.000 You can say, for example, oh, well, I'm better than Cernovich.
00:27:33.000 He's a degenerate lowlife or whatever. 1.00
00:27:36.000 He's stupid or he's ugly. 1.00
00:27:38.000 Oh, and I'm better than Charlie Kirk. 1.00
00:27:39.000 He can go to, you can think you're better than people.
00:27:41.000 That's just being a snob.
00:27:42.000 But objectively, you would say, well, but they maybe have their finger on the pulse.
00:27:46.000 So Charlie's built a massive organization from scratch.
00:27:49.000 Maybe we ought to say what's some advice for you.
00:27:52.000 And yeah, exactly what you said.
00:27:54.000 I've sent so many voice memos to DeSantis people saying, here's what you need to do.
00:27:59.000 They won't do it.
00:27:59.000 So if you take, for example, Sound of Freedom, just tweet your date night, you're getting coverage all weekend, the media attacking you.
00:28:06.000 That's what you need.
00:28:07.000 So if you're DeSantis, you need adversarial media coverage where they claim you're a bad person because you want to stop child sex trafficking.
00:28:14.000 Instead, that same weekend, he made a line about Trump that I think was taken a little bit out of context by MAGA, but it was something like he could have maybe done more on January 6th, but he shouldn't be indicted.
00:28:25.000 And he got into the weeds on that.
00:28:26.000 So that became the story where if you're just a casual Trump supporter, you go, wow, why is DeSantis attacking Trump?
00:28:32.000 Where instead, that whole weekend could have been nonstop coverage of how DeSantis is a horrible person because he wants to stop child sex trafficking.
00:28:40.000 So I think it's not going to that much.
00:28:43.000 That's such a smart idea.
00:28:45.000 I mean, and we could list 10, 12 different ideas.
00:28:47.000 Mike Cernovich, who, by the way, understood Trump well before anybody else in 2015, 16, was a big part of the populist nationalist movement.
00:28:55.000 And just so everyone understands the credibility of Mike, Mike has been very harsh towards Trump in the last 18 months and has really been leveling some fair criticism, but he also looks how things are, not how he wishes that they should be.
00:29:07.000 And he's like, look, this DeSantis thing, this dog is not hunting.
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00:30:38.000 So, Mike, I'm going to read a text from somebody in the DeSantis orbit in a second, but I want to go through your tweets here.
00:30:44.000 You say, not even I could save the DeSantis campaign.
00:30:46.000 My earlier advice, first mocked, then accepted a day late, would have given them momentum.
00:30:50.000 It's hard to help people who don't have joy.
00:30:52.000 MAGA influencers can be, let's just blur that out.
00:30:56.000 But no one can deny they look to be having a good time.
00:30:59.000 You've also said DeSantis can now drop out of the race with dignity.
00:31:03.000 Say we must really get behind Trump given all the unlawful indictments.
00:31:06.000 Trump says he'll make DeSantis attorney general.
00:31:08.000 There's a way to save face here and not look you're bending the knee.
00:31:11.000 This is the controversial tweet, Mike.
00:31:13.000 Why should Trump bring DeSantis now into the orbit?
00:31:17.000 Because we're winning or losing elections on 50,000 votes in three states, right?
00:31:22.000 Trump won 2016 by 83,000 votes in four states.
00:31:25.000 He lost, if you consider it a real loss in 2020 by 50,000 or 40,000 votes in three states.
00:31:34.000 You can't really alienate anyone is the problem here.
00:31:39.000 And one of the people I read and some people I've talked to have actually thought that the DeSantis campaign is designed to torpedo support for Trump in 2024.
00:31:50.000 Then Trump can lose.
00:31:51.000 And then the regime comes back and says, hey, we told you this MAGA thing was a bad idea.
00:31:56.000 I think that's right.
00:31:57.000 Yep.
00:31:59.000 It's a long, slow-motion, expensive I told you so campaign.
00:32:03.000 Right.
00:32:04.000 Could be.
00:32:04.000 I don't know that it is.
00:32:06.000 I tend to think that psychologically, DeSantis is an ambitious man.
00:32:11.000 He's a calculated man.
00:32:12.000 I think he did want the presidency.
00:32:14.000 I know that I heard before this was a big story that Casey DeSantis really wanted him to run.
00:32:19.000 I think some of the stuff people are saying about her is unfair.
00:32:21.000 So I don't want to complain to that too much other than that she really wanted him to run.
00:32:26.000 I know that he's an ambitious man, Cassius, right?
00:32:28.000 We go back to high school, English, you know, you have to go to college to read your Shakespeare.
00:32:33.000 So he's that kind of character.
00:32:36.000 I don't buy into that he's necessarily trying to torpedo it, but I understand why a lot of people think that, because if you look at how they're acting, you would say this is not somebody who wants to win, right?
00:32:47.000 You would say, Vivek, again, people have their things.
00:32:51.000 I'm not here to get into all that, but Vivek is playing to win.
00:32:54.000 Now, whether he really thinks he can win the presidency or whether he's trying to win himself a profile, these are different conversations to be had, but he's playing to win, right?
00:33:02.000 He's on the field like, all right, we're fired up, ready to go, right?
00:33:05.000 I was thinking about that actually yesterday when I met somebody who was part of the Clinton campaign in 2016.
00:33:11.000 And she said, when we door knocked for Obama, every morning it was fired up, ready to go, fired up, ready to go.
00:33:17.000 Like everybody was hyped.
00:33:19.000 That's how they manage their campaign.
00:33:21.000 And with Clinton, there was none of that.
00:33:23.000 So if you're on the DeSantis campaign, do you imagine that it's a, because remember, politics is a team sport.
00:33:30.000 Do you imagine that it's, all right, what are we going to do today?
00:33:32.000 Who's here?
00:33:33.000 Boom.
00:33:33.000 What are we going to do?
00:33:34.000 What are we going to do?
00:33:35.000 What's going on?
00:33:36.000 Show your wins.
00:33:38.000 Do you think that's really happening?
00:33:40.000 Right.
00:33:40.000 I mean, that's not a rhetorical question, Charlie.
00:33:43.000 Do you imagine that there's an atmosphere of enthusiasm and hype amongst the DeSantis campaign?
00:33:48.000 No, I don't.
00:33:50.000 In fact, I'll read this text message because this is what the DeSantis people can't refuse to get through their head, that at times we're actually getting honest advice.
00:33:58.000 I know that they're like, oh, no.
00:34:00.000 It's like, no, actually, we want people to get to their highest level of excellence.
00:34:03.000 So I was texting somebody in the orbit, right?
00:34:05.000 And I said this.
00:34:07.000 I said, look, I'm not one to give advice, but this campaign is the worst I've ever seen.
00:34:11.000 Totally misreading the room.
00:34:12.000 It's tragic to watch.
00:34:13.000 He's a great governor.
00:34:14.000 And they said, okay, well, what's the street?
00:34:16.000 By the way, this is a name that everyone would recognize in the audience.
00:34:18.000 They said, what's the strategic advice here?
00:34:19.000 I said, fire everyone and stop acting like a chamber candidate.
00:34:22.000 He's ruining his legacy and any future chances to win for the presidency.
00:34:26.000 It's sad.
00:34:26.000 Final thoughts, Mike Cernovich.
00:34:29.000 No, you're exactly right.
00:34:30.000 He needs to go into the Lions Den, not have your campaign people saying Jake Tapers honest.
00:34:34.000 I mean, come on, bro.
00:34:36.000 The more I think about it, just the more angry I get.
00:34:38.000 Imagine calling Jake Tapper an honest person.
00:34:41.000 That actually came from the DeSantis campaign.
00:34:43.000 Buy the comms team.
00:34:44.000 That's for sure.
00:34:46.000 Get on message. 1.00
00:34:47.000 Kick all the dorks out. 1.00
00:34:48.000 They lost in 2015. 1.00
00:34:49.000 They lost in 2016.
00:34:50.000 They're not going to bring anything new in 2024.
00:34:54.000 Reshape your messaging and get people who are excited to be in the room.
00:34:59.000 Yeah, and be a happy warrior.
00:35:01.000 I mean, Vivek is doing very well because he's reading the room and he says, huh, 60% of Republican voters love Trump.
00:35:09.000 Another 10% have some soft spot for him.
00:35:12.000 So that's 70% of the party.
00:35:14.000 Probably not a good idea to just declare war.
00:35:16.000 So I'm going to just say really MAGA-based things and win people over as this kind of like happy warrior and charm, a guy that has zero experience.
00:35:25.000 I love Vivek, but DeSantis has a track record.
00:35:27.000 All DeSantis had to do was run as this cheerful, happy warrior and just kind of laugh, be like, oh, it's Trump being Trump.
00:35:33.000 But honestly, I could do what Trump wants to do better.
00:35:35.000 If he had that tone, this would be a race.
00:35:37.000 Instead, the smugness, the arrogance, the hubris, the pride, the hostility towards people like us has been unlike anything I've ever seen.
00:35:44.000 But they know better, Mike.
00:35:45.000 And who are we to speak against them?
00:35:47.000 Mike Cernovich, excellent commentary.
00:35:49.000 Thanks so much.
00:35:52.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
00:35:53.000 Email us your thoughts as always: freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:35:57.000 Also, email me, freedom at charliekirk.com, your opinions on the DeSantis campaign to win a signed copy, potentially, of my book, The College Scam.
00:36:06.000 Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.
00:36:10.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.