00:00:16.000I don't push back because I didn't find that our time together would be as fruitful with that, but I could talk about that in a future episode.
00:00:22.000Maybe I didn't ask me anything, so just keep that in mind.
00:00:25.000And then I talk about the Georgia runoff.
00:00:27.000And finally, does Donald Trump want to obliterate the Constitution?
00:00:31.000Email me your thoughts as alwaysfreedom at charliekirk.com.
00:00:56.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:01:08.000Brought to you by the Loan Experts I Trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandTodd.com.
00:01:17.000One of the more fascinating aspects of my 10 years, almost 11 years of doing this, is seeing how certain ideas, books, thinkers have grown in popularity and also collapsed in popularity, mostly in the conservative movement.
00:01:37.000When I got started in 2012, 2013, 2014 in particular, the conservative movement, especially the young conservative movement, was very libertarian.
00:01:48.000The libertarian think tanks, libertarian organizations, almost all conservative Republican literature was laced with hyper-libertarianism.
00:01:58.000I mean, I read Murray Rothbard, Ludovic Mises, F.A. Hayek, Ayn Rand, became steeped in libertarianism, Milton Friedman, without really ever a proper similar journey until recently into Russell Kirk and Edmund Burke.
00:02:14.000And I've obviously become more conservative and less libertarian on almost all topics, but not all, most topics, not all topics in the last couple of years.
00:02:22.000But libertarianism definitely had a moment in 12, 13, and 14.
00:02:30.000And then it's less popular than ever before in the conservative movement outside of a couple of issues like guns and I would say maybe civil liberties and privacy.
00:02:41.000But to help us unpack this, super excited for this conversation because I've actually lived part of this is Andrew Koppelman, award-winning John Paul Stevens Professor of Law at Northwestern University and author of several other books as well.
00:02:57.000And the name of the book is Burning Down the House.
00:03:11.000You say how libertarian philosophy was corrupted by delusion and greed.
00:03:16.000I actually tend to agree with that largely.
00:03:19.000How do you define libertarian philosophy?
00:03:21.000Libertarianism broadly understood as the idea that people will be freer, people will have more control over their lives if we minimize government.
00:03:31.000That small government is the path to giving us control over our own lives.
00:03:36.000That's the basic idea that's shared by multiple flavors of libertarianism.
00:03:52.000I look forward to, but you start in some of the summaries as saying that Hayek was one of kind of the modern day, let's just say 1940s, 1950s, you know, composed road to serfdom.
00:04:03.000But then you say his philosophy was corrupted by other thinkers.
00:04:08.000Tell us about his warnings against totalitarianism via Road to Serfdom, and then we'll go from there.
00:04:14.000So Road to Serfdom is a book that Hayek writes in 1944 when he is a professor at the London School of Economics.
00:04:21.000He was born in Austria, but he was working in London, and he was writing against the program of the British Labour Party, which was frankly advocating socialism.
00:04:31.000They wanted government control of the means of production.
00:04:34.000They wanted central economic planning.
00:04:36.000And at the time, everybody, you know, intellectuals generally thought that central economic planning was the way to go.
00:04:42.000The world's most admired economic managers were Joseph Stalin and Adolf Hitler, because they were the ones who turned their economies around while Britain and France and the United States were still in depression with high unemployment.
00:04:54.000And Hayek wanted to argue in the book that central economic planning was necessarily both wasteful and tyrannical.
00:05:02.000It would exercise totalitarian control over people's lives and it wouldn't even work.
00:05:08.000It wouldn't make people more prosperous because economies have way too much information, more information than any central planner can know.
00:05:17.000And the only way to assimilate all of that information is a price system.
00:05:24.000I appreciate F.A. Hayek's contribution in that sense, because fighting up against the alleged celebratory praise of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin's economic planning, good for him.
00:05:35.000However, then you argue in the book, okay, so Hayek lays this foundation.
00:05:39.000And then there's some other people that come onto the stage, two in particular that caught my eye that you argue, Ayn Rand and Murray Rothbard.
00:05:49.000I have read a fair amount of her literature, obviously Atlas Shrugged, Fountainhead, Anthem, you know, We the Living, but she brought a different take on it.
00:05:58.000In my personal opinion, she was more focused on the morality of selfishness than danger of totalitarianism.
00:06:08.000She did agree the danger of totalitarianism, but her books almost always began to echo back to the very over-the-top type of celebration of money making for your own purposes and the evil of altruism.
00:06:22.000What are your thoughts on that, Professor?
00:06:23.000Yeah, so she's offering both a personal ethic and a philosophy of government.
00:06:28.000And the personal ethic is one of you really should try to fulfill yourself.
00:06:38.000I'm less interested in that in the book than in the political philosophy.
00:06:42.000She thinks that anything that government does other than protect people's persons and property is illegitimate.
00:06:49.000So one of the differences between her and Hayek is if we think about regulating market transactions that affect people who aren't party to the transaction, like pollution.
00:06:59.000People who suffer from pollution, they're not part of the, they're not the buyer, they're not the seller, they don't get to veto the transaction, but they can be harmed by the transaction.
00:07:10.000And Hayek thought, well, in that case, you have to have government regulation because the market isn't going to fix that.
00:07:16.000And she was opposed to any kind of government regulation, even preventing harm to third parties.
00:07:23.000She was absolutely opposed to any kind of redistribution.
00:07:27.000So a welfare system, even a social safety net to prevent people from starving, she thought was illegitimate.
00:07:34.000And those are fundamental differences between her and Hayek.
00:07:37.000She categorically opposed any kind of redistribution, any kind of regulation.
00:07:42.000And even a step further than her would be Murray Rothbard, who almost had anarcho-tendencies and leanings.
00:08:12.000It's in nobody's interest for us to fight with each other.
00:08:16.000So we don't need the state to maintain peace and prosperity.
00:08:21.000So, therefore, with that kind of a backdrop, you argue then that the last couple decades, especially recently, last 10 years, we're actually living in some of the economic policy and philosophy, especially in the Republican Party, that these libertarian thinkers kind of built for us in the 50s and 60s.
00:08:45.000Yeah, so if you look at the position of the Republican Party, for instance, Trump during his presidency, and he had control of both houses of Congress to support him, and he presented himself as a champion of the working class.
00:09:00.000But if you look at what he actually did, what he did was primarily big tax cuts for the rich and gutting the federal regulatory apparatus, including the apparatus that protects people from pollution, and an effort to massively cut health care in order to have more tax cuts for the rich.
00:09:20.000And none of this particularly benefits working people, even though that's what he was offering.
00:09:26.000The basic idea in practice was anything that we can do to limit the state is a good thing.
00:09:33.000And this worked primarily to the benefit of businesses and people who were inconvenienced by any kind of regulation and redistribution.
00:09:42.000There are people in the Republican Party who are pushing back against that, but there's only a few of them.
00:09:49.000And so far, they're pretty politically isolated.
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00:10:56.000I might disagree with some of the characterization of the Trump stuff, but we could put that aside.
00:11:00.000I'm more interested in talking about and exploring how certain people in the Republican Party will fight for corporate handouts and giveaways or deregulation of corporations and almost have these, let's say, libertarian philosophical think tanks backing them up for it.
00:11:20.000So let me give you just a very simple example, okay?
00:11:23.000There's a libertarian think tank in Washington, D.C. called the Cato Institute, who will argue for almost no government regulation at all for technology companies.
00:11:31.000And certain Republicans will say, here's the documents of why I believe this.
00:11:35.000But you look at the donors, it's Google and the biggest technology companies that are funding these libertarian think tanks.
00:11:41.000Talk about how some of the biggest corporations have found friends in the libertarian community, even though the corporations themselves probably don't believe this, but it is good for business.
00:11:52.000I'll say that as a general matter, corporations are just unreliable guides to politics because assuming that I'm running a company, honestly, my job is to maximize value for my shareholders.
00:12:08.000I am not there to have an abstract conversation about truth.
00:12:11.000I want to promote the government actions that are going to make money for my company.
00:12:16.000And so sometimes that means that I'm going to say things that I don't believe.
00:12:20.000And so I'm going to say things that I don't believe.
00:12:22.000You shouldn't assume that a company really believes what it's saying any more than you should believe that a lawyer believes that his client is innocent.
00:12:30.000Even if he thinks that his client is guilty, he's got an obligation to his client to make the best case he can for his client.
00:12:38.000It's that they fund other think tanks generously who then have at least the appearance that they believe this stuff.
00:12:47.000Yeah, the people I know at the Cato Institute really do honestly believe what they are saying, but it is true that their funders have other motives.
00:13:07.000What do you think that conservatives can learn kind of most like what is the most helpful lesson from your book, you would argue, or your research for conservatives about libertarian philosophy and how you believe it was corrupted by both delusion and greed?
00:13:22.000Well, I think that if what you are trying to do is promote traditional values, I mean, one point that you've sometimes emphasized is that the value of the American working class are at some distance from the values of the educated elites in the Democratic Party.
00:13:38.000And that creates an opening for the Republican Party.
00:13:41.000But I think if the Republican Party is going to take advantage of this, it has to actually raise the standard of living for those working class people whose lives have become much more precarious than they were 30 years ago.
00:13:54.000And that's going to require some more intervention in the economy than the libertarianism allows.
00:14:01.000And that's going to require a fundamental value shift within the Republican Party.
00:14:08.000It's going to mean, for example, Tom Cotton introduced a bill to try to provide more vocational training for people who are not going to go to college at all, who are just out of high school and they want to work.
00:14:23.000That involves raising money via taxes and using it to give these folks training.
00:14:28.000Libertarianism is absolutely opposed to this because it involves raising taxes and it involves giving money to people just because they need it and distributing outside the market.
00:14:42.000Pollution tends to benefit large shareholders, tends to hurt workers and ordinary people who've got to drink the air and breathe the water.
00:14:52.000And the Republican Party's become more extreme in both those directions.
00:14:57.000And to the extent that it remains extreme in libertarian directions, that damages its chance of being an appealing working class party.
00:15:05.000Professor Koppelman, very interesting.
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00:16:12.000Okay, I want to get through a couple topics here.
00:16:14.000The first of which I just want to explore with you the Georgia runoff, and then I'm going to get to Trump's statements this weekend, which I actually saw President Trump this weekend.
00:16:49.000But I felt our time was best, most fruitful talking about his book and his philosophy, not having some sort of sparring match back and forth.
00:16:55.000And you guys have heard my opinions rather extensively on that stuff.
00:16:59.000If you have any questions about it, email mefreedom at charliekirk.com.
00:17:02.000But I thought he was compelling and articulate, partially on it, but I also think that it's not totally true that Republican Party has completely embraced pollution, but that's a separate issue.
00:17:17.000So I have a flurry of emails about Georgia.
00:17:20.000I think there is an understandable hesitation for some people in the conservative movement and the Republican Party to stop getting our hopes up.
00:17:32.000I think a fair amount of people say, you know what, Charlie, if I keep on getting my hopes up, then I'm just going to keep on getting crushed.
00:17:40.000And it seems as if at least nationally, people are, it's a symbol.
00:18:38.000I know a lot of you guys are working hard in Georgia right now, but there is an undeniable enthusiasm gap between Democrats and Republicans.
00:19:07.000But saying I'm not going to care about a runoff that could determine the future of the balance of the U.S. Senate, I understand the base is completely demoralized.
00:19:18.000But look, right now, Republicans are down probably about 200,000 early votes right now in Georgia.
00:19:25.000We have no idea what's going to happen tomorrow in Georgia.
00:19:28.000It would take a lot of voters to turn out.
00:19:31.000Now, I think it's a mistake what's happened in Georgia.
00:19:35.000This is what really bothers me about the Republican Party and the conservative movement.
00:19:40.000How people don't get on the same page.
00:19:43.000If Donald Trump and Ron DeSantis would have both barnstormed the state of Georgia in certain select areas, I believe that Warnock would be defeated.
00:19:55.000If every voter who voted for Walker a month ago turned out again, it's almost a guarantee win.
00:20:01.000But because turnout will be down and our voters don't want to go vote twice, of which takes all of five to 10 minutes, the country will be less free.
00:21:13.000They showed up on Inauguration Day and afterwards, yeah, I know they were burning down Washington, D.C., but they also had the female march, what are they called?
00:21:20.000The woman's march, whatever it was, Madonna saying she's going to blow up the White House.
00:24:43.000Years ago, there was a belief, people speculated that North Carolina was going to go blue, and no one really thought Georgia could go blue.
00:24:54.000Georgia's Democrat turn has happened very quickly.
00:24:59.000It's also because of Georgia's silly and dangerous law that invited Hollywood into Georgia and gave tax credits for the film industry.
00:25:11.000One of the dumbest things they've ever done.
00:25:36.000What do Georgia and Arizona have in common?
00:25:38.000Mass populations clustered in urban areas.
00:25:44.000Arizona, 62% of all voters are in Maricopa County.
00:25:49.000And also Atlanta and Phoenix have very significant suburban populations, suburban populations, with upper-middle-class white women that watch television a lot and can be easily persuaded with messaging about fringe candidates and Donald Trump and a return to normalcy.
00:26:09.000They're making Raphael Warnock look like a moderate Democrat.
00:26:12.000The guy's a Marxist, and that story is not being told.
00:26:15.000Democrats are outspending Herschel Walker 10 to 1 in the state of Georgia right now.
00:26:23.000I think it's a huge mistake to not have Donald Trump come to Georgia.
00:26:26.000I see no calculation whatsoever why Donald Trump should not have done two rallies, one in Marjorie Taylor Greene's district and one in Valdosta, Georgia.
00:26:34.000Donald Trump is a 45-minute flight away from Mar-a-Lago to Georgia.
00:26:39.000Ron DeSantis is 50 miles away from the Georgia border.
00:26:45.000Did Ron DeSantis come and campaign in Georgia for Herschel Walker?
00:27:21.000Okay, I want to lean right into this story that has everybody freaking out over the Trump post this weekend.
00:27:29.000Okay, I want to read it word for word.
00:27:31.000He said, okay, so with the revelation of massive and widespread fraud and deception in working closely with big tech companies, the DNC and Democrat Party, do you throw out the presidential election results of 2020 out and declare the rightful winner, or do you have a new election?
00:27:55.000A massive fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution.
00:28:09.000Our great, quote, founders did not want and would not condone false and fraudulent elections.
00:28:16.000Okay, I don't think it's helpful language to say that we should throw out the Constitution.
00:28:21.000I think that's probably a fair thing to say.
00:28:24.000But the essence of what I believe he is saying here, and I'll continue, is saying that the founding fathers and the designers of our system would not put up, would not put up with, or would not have a system that would be therefore desirable in the sense of allowing a private actor to come in and suppress the distribution of information.
00:28:49.000He clarified, he continues, the fake news is actually trying to convince the American people that I said I wanted to terminate the Constitution.
00:28:56.000This is simply just disinformation and lies.
00:29:00.000Just like the Russia, Russia, Russia, and all their other hoaxes and scams.
00:29:04.000What I said was that if there was massive and widespread fraud and inception, as has been irrefutably proven in the 2020 election, steps must be immediately taken to right the wrong.
00:29:13.000Only fools would disagree with that and accept stone elections MAGA.
00:29:16.000Simply put, if an election is irrefutably fraudulent, it should go to the rightful winner or at minimum be redone.
00:29:22.000Where open and blatant fraud is involved, there should be no limit for change.
00:29:27.000And then the media comes out and says Trump calls for the termination of the Constitution in Truth Social Post.
00:29:36.000The language could have been more precise so that it would not be able to be misconstrued.
00:29:42.000The way I read it originally when I read it is what he was saying, in my personal opinion: if we cannot have elections, then what's the point in even having a Constitution that is all designed around the premise of consent to the governed?
00:29:59.000And you also must understand, this is a former president who should still be president, who is rather fired up right now for good reason, because from every direction, the FBI, the CIA, the Department of Justice, all across the board.
00:30:16.000But the way I read it, and I think that a lot of other people did, is, what's the point in even having this beautiful Constitution, having separation of powers, checks and balances, consent to the governed, permission of the people, and elections?
00:30:31.000What is the point if all of it just gets thrown out because we can't have fair and free elections?
00:30:38.000And people say Donald Trump wants to shred the Constitution.
00:30:41.000No, actually, Joe Biden shreds the Constitution on a daily basis, from vaccine mandates to unconstitutional student loan forgiveness to keeping the United States southern border wide open.
00:30:53.000Paradoxically and ironically, more ironically is the more appropriate word, Donald Trump was a defender of the Constitution when he was president.
00:31:02.000Donald Trump actually listened to court judgments when they came through.
00:31:06.000These posts mean very little to me, and they should mean very little to you.
00:31:14.000And when Donald Trump was president, he was a defender of the Constitution daily, hourly, minute by minute, from the border to treaties to appropriate and prudent foreign policy intervention to justices, Amy Coney Barrett, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh, circuit court judges, to executive power.
00:31:37.000Donald Trump was right within the tradition of honoring, appreciating, and defending the United States Constitution.
00:31:47.000Joe Biden pretends he's for the Constitution and obliterates it on a daily basis.
00:31:53.000So people say, oh, he wants to get rid of the Constitution in the social media posts.