Dave Smith and Josh Hammer debate whether or not we should support Israel during the upcoming 12 Day War between Israel and Iran, and why we should not send aid to Israel. Recorded in Tampa, FL at Turning Point USA, a conference sponsored by Noble Gold Investments.
00:00:44.000He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, turning toward USA.
00:00:50.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:01:03.000Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
00:01:13.000Learn how you can protect your wealth with Noble Gold Investments at noblegoldinvestments.com.
00:01:28.000Our last bit of programming here is going to be a debate.
00:01:31.000As many of you guys know, I speak a lot about this on college campuses.
00:01:35.000I get so many questions about this topic on college campuses.
00:01:38.000Some of my best memories ever have been going to Israel, traveling to Israel, seeing where Jesus rose from the dead, Jesus walked on water, spoke in the Garden of Gethsemane, gave the sermon on Mount Beatitudes, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Hebron.
00:01:50.000And some of my greatest experiences have been in the Holy Land and defending Israel.
00:01:55.000But as you know, this is a very hot topic on campus and increasingly a hot topic in conservative circles.
00:02:02.000And I thought, hey, let's lean into that disagreement.
00:02:07.000Let's have two people that don't agree on this topic that are some of the best defenders of the position when it comes to Israel, when it comes to the 12-day war, when it comes to whether or not we should be supporting or sending aid to Israel.
00:02:21.000Because we as conservatives, we want to have this debate.
00:02:23.000We don't want to just all of a sudden say, oh, you're not allowed to say that.
00:03:09.000Josh is a very passionate and eloquent defender of Israel and also is a great friend and someone that we talk about a lot of other issues as well.
00:04:01.000Number two, we want to talk about the appeared, the fake, or the real amount of Israeli influence in American politics, from AIPAC to how congressmen are involved and kind of have our discussion and debate.
00:04:14.000And then finally, it's one thing to be against stuff, everybody.
00:04:17.000You can always, you know, I don't like this, I don't like that.
00:04:20.000I want both of these men to present what their solution is, their proposition of what they are proposing.
00:04:27.000So with that, though, Dave, I thought it would be helpful.
00:04:29.000This is your first turning point event.
00:04:30.000Some people aren't familiar with your work.
00:04:32.000Introduce yourself, make an introductory statement, and the floor is yours, my friend.
00:04:37.000Well, thank you very much, and thank you guys for having me.
00:04:40.000Yeah, as Charlie mentioned, I took a flight here.
00:05:20.000We've talked about peace through strength the whole time, but all we've gotten is permanent militarism and forever wars against countries that pose no threat to us.
00:05:30.000And a huge part of the reason why we've embarked on this is because the neoconservatives hijacked our foreign policy and they were in power after 9-11.
00:05:38.000And the neoconservatives, as everybody who's followed it knows, were joined at the hip with the Likud Party.
00:05:59.000Now, their plan was that to help Israel, the Clean Break is a break from the peace process, a break from Oslo, which was designed to give the Palestinians their own state.
00:06:10.000And these neoconservative geniuses decided that instead of the Israelis making peace with the Palestinians, they could just have the U.S. overthrow all of the surrounding governments that were giving Israel a hard time.
00:06:22.000And this is where four-star general Wesley Clark says that he saw the plans right after 9-11 to overthrow seven countries In the next five years.
00:06:31.000And what was the last country on that list?
00:07:04.000They actually did focus group testing back in the 90s before the first Gulf War in Iraq.
00:07:10.000And you know, Americans weren't really moved by we have to reinstall the king of Kuwait, but they were moved by the nuclear threat.
00:07:19.000Now, if you go read Coping with Crumbling States or the Clean Break memo in the 90s when the neocons admitted they wanted to overthrow Saddam Hussein, they never said it was because he had nuclear weapons.
00:07:28.000They said he was a problem for Israel in the region.
00:07:31.000They only made up that lie after 9-11 because they knew that's what would sell you, or maybe not you, you're too young, but sell your moms and dads on going and fighting this war.
00:07:41.000And by the way, when they talked about wanting to overthrow Iran, it was the same thing.
00:07:45.000Never had nothing to do with a nuclear threat.
00:07:47.000That's just the thing they use now as the excuse.
00:07:50.000So yes, there is tremendous influence by Israel in our government.
00:07:54.000That doesn't mean I'm subscribing to some crazy conspiracy or telling you to hate Jewish people.
00:08:01.000They've used it in a very negative way.
00:08:02.000And we should reject this insane foreign policy and embrace the foreign policy that Dr. Ron Paul advocated, which is the foreign policy of the founding fathers.
00:08:11.000Stay out of entangling alliances, stay out of unnecessary wars, be friends with the world, and trade with the world.
00:08:45.000So you can kind of get off the same starting place there.
00:08:49.000Look, there's a lot of substance to respond to.
00:08:52.000I'll just really briefly do that and then talk about what I actually want to talk about in my opening remarks.
00:08:57.000Dave mentioned this alleged coordination between the neoconservatives, which I presume he means Bush-era foreign policy, and the Likud Party.
00:09:05.000I presume half of you probably don't even know what the Likud Party is.
00:09:10.000It's very instructive, and Dave always conveniently neglects to inform the audience of this, that the actual leader of the Israeli right back in 2002, a man by the name of Ariel Sharon, vehemently opposed the Bush administration going into Iraq.
00:09:21.000So this whole notion that Israel is talking America into foreign wars is total nonsense.
00:09:27.000Actually, in 2011, when the Obama administration toppled Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, it's actually well known that Libya actually sent secret diplomatic envoys to Israel trying to tell them to then talk to the United States and France to talk NATO off of that attack there.
00:09:43.000So this whole narrative is totally backwards there.
00:09:45.000But I want to kind of dumb things down a little bit here.
00:09:47.000I see a lot of people wearing 47 hats.
00:09:49.000I voted for President Trump multiple times.
00:10:08.000The good news is that while no one should be afraid of debate and this debate is a nice thing here, the MAGA movement is actually quite unified, believe it or not, all the talk to the contrary when it comes to these issues.
00:10:18.000An overwhelming majority of self-identified MAGA Republicans support close U.S. Israel relations.
00:10:24.000According to a CBS news poll, moreover, after the recent Operation Midnight Hammer B-2 bombers in Iran, 94%, 94% of self-identified MAGA Republicans supported President Trump's dropping those B-2 bombs on Ford Donatans and the other Irani facilities there.
00:10:42.000This is a wildly, wildly popular policy there.
00:11:10.000Donald Trump is responsible for around 500,000 deaths in Yemen.
00:11:14.000And between the weapons to Ukraine and the Abraham Accord's Jerusalem embassy, he is at least partially responsible for the two worst humanitarian crises in the world.
00:11:22.000He's a war criminal who should spend his life in prison.
00:11:25.000He is calling Donald Trump a war criminal who should spend his life in prison.
00:11:31.000I am living at that as a Trump supporter.
00:11:33.000Donald Trump, David Smith, June 16, 2025.
00:11:37.000Trump allegedly had full prior knowledge of Israel's attacks and gave it his blessing while pretending to be negotiating with the Iranians as a cover.
00:11:44.000If this is true, Trump is the most impotent b ⁇ of a leader imaginable.
00:11:48.000He's calling our president the greatest president in my lifetime, an impotent b ⁇ .
00:12:26.000I also, he said, I oppose a neoconservative foreign policy.
00:12:29.000He did both of those things with Iran.
00:12:32.000He deprived the Irani regime of nuclear weapon while not losing a single American sailor, soldier, Marine while depriving them of nuclear weapons.
00:12:40.000Dave Smith, July 8th, 2025, in the last month, Donald Trump has launched a war of aggression on behalf of a foreign government, exploded the debt, announced that he's continuing the Biden policy of Army Ukraine and cover up a giant child rape operation.
00:12:52.000So according to my interlocutor, Donald Trump is not just engaging in wars on behalf of a foreign government, he is also covering up the world's giant pedophilic Child sex trafficking ring, allegedly, I presume, on behalf of a foreign government as well.
00:13:03.000So I'm disgusted, frankly, that this man is on stage, but I'll end it at that.
00:13:34.000Well, the thing is, Charlie, as you may have noticed, and some of you may have seen some of my other debates, every single time I come up here to debate issues, and they come up here to debate me and my character.
00:13:47.000Because they can't actually take on any of the arguments, and so the most pathetic, low-hanging fruit of, you guys like Trump, this guy said bad things about Trump.
00:14:18.000And, you know, as far as the actual substance of what Josh said here, which there really wasn't much, but I already pointed this out the last time we debated.
00:14:25.000His topic about how Sharon was against the war in Iraq is total nonsense.
00:14:30.000Sharon's envoy initially opposed it when he found out that Bush was going to invade Iraq, not because he didn't want Saddam Hussein to be overthrown, but because he wanted regime change in Iran first.
00:14:42.000And then when the George W. Bush administration assured him that Iran would come next, they got on board with it and they started pumping out all types of propaganda about how Saddam Hussein's nuclear secret sites that didn't exist.
00:14:54.000And Benjamin Netanyahu, the longest-serving prime minister in Israeli history, that year in 2002, came to Congress and testified under a congressional testimony that anybody can go watch and advocated not that the U.S. let Israel do it, but that the U.S. overthrow Saddam Hussein.
00:15:15.000I believe his words were, I guarantee that peace will spread through the region.
00:15:20.000And he also advocated that we overthrow Muammar Gaddafi and the mullahs in Iran.
00:15:25.000So that's just, you're just wrong about it.
00:15:53.000As far as the 12-day war goes, I mean, look, I'll be honest.
00:15:56.000Donald Trump, it might be the greatest thing he's ever done in his life that at the end of the 12-day war, after the Iranian response was as weak as it was and they gave us advanced warning, so there were no American casualties, he started pushing for a ceasefire.
00:16:19.000Iran, according to all of the intelligence, including our director of national intelligence, until a day after Israel bombed them and she changed her mind.
00:16:31.000Go read the annual threat assessment from earlier this year.
00:16:34.000Iran had not made the political decision to acquire a nuclear weapon, and they were in negotiations with Donald Trump at the time to bring their enrichment down.
00:16:43.000There was just no need other than the fact that Benjamin Netanyahu wants that regime overthrown.
00:17:37.000He is in the mold of Andrew Jackson, one of his favorite presidents of all time, because he believes in generally following the very wise advice of George Washington in his farewell address that you should beware of foreign entanglements.
00:17:49.000But when you are attacked, you are going to punch back three times as hard.
00:17:53.000How many times has Trump said that in a debate there?
00:17:55.000When he's punched, he's going to punch back really, really, really hard.
00:17:59.000What happened in the 12-day war was you had a close ally, Israel, that through their wonderful control of the skies and they're taking out the missile launchers and the IRGC command there, essentially paved a very clean runway through that and their neutralizing Hezbollah last year in 2024 that then allowed the United States to come in with the B-2 bombers and the death blow.
00:18:21.000For you basketball fans, it was kind of like Kobe Bryan tossing it to Shaquille O'Neal back in the way.
00:18:25.000It was a perfect tag team operation to neutralize and set back by many years the threat of a regime that, whether or not we care to admit it, has actually been at war with the United States at least since the 1983 Beirut, Lebanon, Hezbollah barracks bombings that slaughtered 241 Marines, arguably since the 1979 hostage crisis as well.
00:18:44.000Again, Donald Trump fulfilled multiple campaign promises.
00:18:49.000Not a single American soldier, sailor, or Marine died.
00:18:53.000It was a brilliant, brilliant move of statesmanship, a fantastical move.
00:18:57.000Frankly, it's a borderline Mount Rushmore worthy accomplishment, I would say.
00:19:02.000By the time this show ends, another American family farm will shut down.
00:19:06.000Not because they stopped working, but because a lot of grocery store meat doesn't come from them anymore.
00:19:12.000Over 85% of the grass-fed beef in the U.S. stores is imported, and most people have no idea.
00:19:17.000That's why I get all of my meat from GoodRanchers.com.
00:19:20.000GoodRanchers doesn't just sell meat, they guide you back to the source.
00:19:24.000All Good Ranchers' products are 100% born, raised, and harvested in the U.S.A. from local family farms.
00:19:29.000And with the summer and full swing, There's nothing better than good food to share with your friends and family, whether it's burgers by the pools, sticks on the grill or nuggets for an easy meal.
00:19:37.000Make sure you're serving America's best meat this summer.
00:19:40.000Plus, if you subscribe to any Good Ranch box today, you get your take of free meat for life.
00:19:44.000That's free water, burgers, hot dogs, bacon, or chicken wings.
00:19:47.000And every box for the lifetime of your subscription.
00:19:50.000And if you use my exclusive code Kirk at checked out, you get extra $40 off your first box.
00:19:55.000Once again, visit GoodRanchers.com and use my code Kirk to get your free meat for life plus $40 off.
00:20:00.000GoodRanchers.com, American Meat Delivered.
00:21:01.000Iran has transparently and obviously been trying to acquire a nuclear weapon for two and a half, three decades.
00:21:07.000We know this for approximately one to two million different reasons.
00:21:11.000Among them that we can point to is that the IAEA, the International Atomic Energy Administration, which is essentially the nuclear watchdog for the United Nations, they have been sounding the alarm about this and they have said very loudly and clearly that Iran has blocked their inspectors from going to inspect their enriched uranium and that they have concluded over recent years especially,
00:21:32.000including recent months, that Iran is enriching uranium at a much quicker rate and to a much higher percentage and rate of enrichment than any civilian program would ever justify.
00:21:42.000By the way, the notion that Iran even needs a civilian program in the first place, I think, is kind of bonkers.
00:21:46.000It's one of the most petroleum, oil, and gas-rich countries in the world.
00:21:49.000So that's kind of a bit of a red herring in and of itself.
00:21:52.000But we know from a million different international organizations that they have been doing this.
00:21:55.000And Charlie, more to the point, again, you know, Dave likes to say, oh, they just chant death to America, which they do.
00:22:00.000They literally chant it every single day in their Potemkin parliament.
00:22:05.000They killed hundreds and hundreds of American soldiers on the roadside of Fallujah, Al-Ambar province, during Iraq with Qasem Sulaimani-supplied IEDs.
00:22:13.000They have killed Americans going back to the 241 Marines in Beirut, Lebanon.
00:22:17.000By the way, the Hezbollah jihadists who organized that operation to slaughter those Marines in Beirut, Lebanon in 1983 was a man by the name of Fuad Shakur.
00:22:27.000The U.S. State Department had a $5 million bounty on his head following the 1983 slaughter of the Marines there in Beirut.
00:22:39.000Israel took out this guy that the State Department had a $5 million bounty on for 41 years for killing 241 of our boys back in 1983 in Beirut.
00:22:47.000So I'm going to now ask, really tough follow-up for you.
00:22:52.000You do not want Iran to get a nuclear weapon.
00:23:18.000I don't want us to talk past each other or else we're going to spend all this time on prime ministers in 2002 that the audience doesn't know about.
00:23:24.000No, but if he's making claims about something that's just a problem.
00:23:28.000I want to just ask a very simple question.
00:23:30.000From your perspective, because I just asked the tough one to Josh, is are you okay, or do you think we should do anything to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear bomb?
00:23:47.000Well, again, this is a, yes, there are times when military action is justified, but if you're saying what we could do to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, what we were doing, Donald Trump was in negotiations with them, and I think he should have continued those.
00:23:58.000And the truth is that the big problem with the JCPOA that Obama got us into was that there were sunset provisions.
00:24:06.000They opened up a whole new inspections regime.
00:24:09.000It is not true that the IAEA is saying that Iran was about to get a nuclear weapon.
00:24:13.000Anybody you want, it's published online.
00:24:15.000You can go read the conclusion of their last report where they explicitly said Iran does not have nuclear weapons and is not trying to develop them.
00:24:22.000They are enriching it 60%, and they were in negotiations to maybe bring that down.
00:24:26.000But you know, when you bring up the fact of the Marines getting killed in 1983, it's actually an interesting, Ronald Reagan, who was president at the time, he wrote about this in his memoir.
00:24:37.000Now, if you know what Ronald Reagan did was he pulled out after that.
00:26:46.000So looking at it now, 12 days later, what is your problem with what seems to be a masterclass in 12 days, in, out, no problem, no U.S. troops?
00:27:01.000You know, I think, and I do think there's something really sick and poisoning about this, is that our country has become so addicted to war that if we launch a war and you go, well, hey, it wasn't a complete catastrophe.
00:27:14.000I mean, a million people didn't die in this one, like in Iraq.
00:27:17.000Or hundreds of thousands didn't die in this one, like in Afghanistan or Libya or Syria.
00:27:22.000It's like, okay, look, people died in this war, okay?
00:27:24.000There were both Iranian civilians and Israeli civilians who died in this war.
00:27:28.000It was a terrible fit for them and their families.
00:27:56.000And look, again, I'll give Donald Trump credit that, okay, it didn't turn into a catastrophe.
00:28:03.000He took the off-ramp when he had the chance.
00:28:05.000But look, a lot of that was out of Donald Trump's control.
00:28:08.000The risk of this war, like a lot of people love to, like Josh likes to read my tweets when I was saying this could turn into a catastrophe.
00:28:45.000Listen, for all you guys, you talking about how big and bad the Iranians are and what a scary threat they are, what if they hadn't given us advance notice?
00:28:54.000What if Iran was actually as suicidal as people like Josh pretend they are?
00:28:58.000And what if their response had killed a few hundred Americans in the region, which by all military assessments, they are capable of doing?
00:29:06.000What would Donald Trump have had to do then, Charlie?
00:30:06.000But more generally speaking, I don't understand why we're going so far down this rabbit hole of would have, could have, should have.
00:30:12.000The people, look, let's say something very simple here.
00:30:14.000The people who said that Donald Trump's involvement in the 37-hour operation of the B-2 bombers flying from Missouri to Iran and back with not a single shot fired at our boys, by the way, as I said, that was partially due to the fact that the IDF had so neutralized the Iranian Air Force and their defenses there.
00:30:34.000So the fact that he was able to accomplish that so amazingly there, we should have seen that coming because it was actually pretty easily foreseeable.
00:30:42.000And the people who did not see that coming are the people who have lost credibility to comment, frankly, on these affairs.
00:30:47.000People who warned about thousands and thousands and thousands of dead American lives who said that China and Russia would swoop in and that this would be World War III.
00:31:18.000Donald Trump agrees with both those things.
00:31:20.000The nationalist, realist, MAGA, America-first approach to foreign policy is to have strong nationalist allies that are generally capable of securing and patrolling their own regions in a way that redounds not merely to the Allies' national interests, but also to the American national interests.
00:31:37.000That is exactly what Israel has been doing for 40, 50 years as they have taken out Islamist and Sharia supremacist thugs in Gaza, in Yemen, Hezbollah.
00:31:45.000I mentioned Fuad Shakur, the Hezbollah jihadi who killed 241 Marines in Beirut, Lebanon, 1983.
00:31:52.000That is the definition of an America-first ally.
00:31:54.000And what has happened in the 12-day war is an encapsulation of the America-first Trump doctrine that in this case, this tag team between the U.S. and Israel against the mutual threat of Iran inaction.
00:32:05.000Private student loan debt in America totals about $300 billion.
00:32:09.000YReFi refinances private student loan debt, and they do not care what your credit score is.
00:32:14.000Many clients aren't even able to make the minimum monthly payment on their private student loans when they first contact YReFi.
00:33:50.000Most of you are probably Christians, and God bless you for that.
00:33:53.000If you have any attachment whatsoever to the holy sites, if you have any attachment whatsoever to this narrow strip of land between the river and the sea, as the Hamas propagandists call it, then you're going to have some reason to care about this particular sliver of land.
00:34:10.000Especially if you understand that we in Western civilization are fundamentally at war with barbarism, barbarism being best represented by the Islamists and Sharia supremacists.
00:34:20.000When you understand that Western civilization really just is the Bible, there is a special calling to have an ally with a certain part of the Middle East.
00:34:29.000Point two is just the Islamist deterrent point, Charlie, which is that America has faced jihadism time and time again, going back for 40, 50 years.
00:34:38.0009-11, obviously the most tragic example.
00:34:40.000We just saw it again on the streets of Bourbon Street in New Orleans on January 1st, just a few months ago, there.
00:34:44.000If you care about deterring Islamism from conquering Western civilization, a point that you have very astutely been talking about a lot recently on your TV hits on social media, a very, very important point.
00:34:53.000If you care about defending Western civilization from the barbarians, you absolutely have to place a special premium on this particular relationship.
00:35:01.000And then third is that if you actually care as I do, you know, paradoxically, I actually care a lot about China.
00:35:08.000In fact, I think that America's by far number one biggest threat this century is China.
00:35:12.000If you care about effectuating this broader pivot to the Indo-Pacific, as American foreign policy people have been talking about for 20, 30 years now, you have to have some way of stabilizing the Middle East.
00:35:22.000The way to do that is not to just adopt the stupid and asinine Barack Obama foreign policy of appeasing America's enemies.
00:35:30.000The way to do that is to embolden your allies.
00:35:35.000So we didn't get to the second part of the question.
00:35:37.000So do you want to just start on the ally and then we'll do you can incorporate both, Dave.
00:35:40.000He had two answers in a row, so take three to four minutes.
00:35:43.000Well, look, this idea that the great battle of our time is us versus the Islamists, us versus these barbarians, you know, that's really the problem here in the United States of America.
00:35:54.000Lebanon, that's what you got to worry about.
00:35:56.000Listen, I think everyone here, all you guys should know this at this point.
00:36:01.000Our problem in America is the deep state of the United States of America, okay?
00:36:48.000Anyway, it doesn't mean that we have to support Israel slaughtering people in Gaza.
00:36:54.000None of that has anything to do with the holy sites.
00:36:56.000And in fact, a lot of sites get destroyed when there's bombs flying.
00:37:00.000But listen, the real problem for America, if you want to even talk about like the Islam taking over America or taking over Europe, well, how did that happen?
00:37:11.000That happened because we completely destabilized the region, fighting war after war after war that did nothing but slaughter hundreds of thousands of people.
00:37:19.000And then our Western governments had the most insane open immigration policy that was basically suicidal.
00:37:51.000And now you guys are coming out into the world and you're wondering why you're six figures in debt from college and you're getting a job at DoorDash and the average house goes for 800 grand.
00:38:02.000Because we've destroyed the currency chasing these monsters that were never any threat to our country.
00:38:34.000Have you spoken to the families of the people who have been killed in 1983 in Beirut, Lebanon, the people who have been killed by those IEDs in Iraq that you're just casually dismissing?
00:38:43.000Have you actually spoken to any of these families?
00:39:40.000And 9-11, there's Dave responded to that, and then I will throw it back to Josh.
00:39:45.000Well, I certainly don't think I in any way minimized any of those deaths.
00:39:50.000I've made the point that Ronald Reagan still sold weapons to Iran a couple years after that, and I made the point that those roadside weapons were built in Iraq by Shiites there.
00:40:01.000This is a huge part of the reason why we never should have invaded Iraq to begin with, because we get our bravest young boys killed.
00:40:06.000It's tens of thousands of them have committed suicide in the last few years, and that doesn't seem to stop anyone from wanting to pursue the next attack.
00:40:16.000So the point is, right, that I think if we want to really understand this stuff, it's wise to look at what some of the motivating factors for the hatred against us is.
00:40:33.000Overwhelmingly, they're non-interventionist, anti-war people now.
00:40:37.000In fact, did you know that in 2008 and in 2012, Dr. Ron Paul got more money from active duty military than all the other candidates combined, including Barack Obama, because the active duty military are actually the ones who are the most hardcore people.
00:40:55.000So don't invoke them to try to sell another tolerance.
00:40:58.000But Dave, I'm going to follow up with a tough question.
00:41:00.000I want you to make the case, because I don't want to have you be able to get past this.
00:41:13.000Look, all I'm saying is Israel has at every turn— I'm not talking about the people there.
00:41:22.000And I'm specifically talking about Benjamin Netanyahu and the Likud Party, who have been in control for most of this time, for most of my lifetime.
00:41:31.000Yeah, and great, most of the 21st century.
00:41:33.000And so when I say they have been constantly pushing America toward more aggressive policies, toward getting in more fights.
00:41:43.000And just like I always say, if you went out to the bar every single night with your friend and every night your friend's trying to convince you to get into a fight and while you're beating a lot of people up, you're also taking a lot of wounds and you're going to jail and you're getting in trouble.
00:41:55.000You got to stop hanging out with that friend.
00:41:58.000And so I think that my position, I don't believe in wars of aggression and wars of choice.
00:43:17.000But APAC is not this nefarious bogeyman that Dave Smith Peel make it out to be.
00:43:22.000It stands for America-Israel Political Action Committee.
00:43:25.000It is a group of Americans who place a premium on the U.S.-Israel relationship the same way that the NRA is a group of Americans who place a premium on the Second Amendment.
00:43:34.000I'm a concealed carry kind of guy myself.
00:43:36.000Same way that there are any number of other lobby groups that support any number of other things.
00:43:39.000By the way, there's also similar groups similar to APAC for American citizens who support U.S. relations with other foreign countries.
00:43:46.000Funny how these other groups never get brought up in this debate.
00:43:49.000For instance, anyone who's been to Glendale, California, you probably heard folks in Anka.
00:43:53.000That's the Armenian National Committee of America, a very loud, active group in Washington, D.C. Perhaps more nefariously, there is the NIAC, the National Iranian American Council.
00:44:02.000It's funny how in these debates, when you talk about various American citizens who get involved to lobby or to express their political opinion as the First Amendment gives you the right to do, because they think that the U.S. national interest is served by allying with a certain country, it's funny, and perhaps a little worse than funny, how the whole registrar as a foreign agent talking point comes up only in one context, in one context only, which is AIPAC.
00:44:26.000Look, the notion, Charlie, that AIPAC, which again, I'm not a fan of, I have literally...
00:44:34.000Yeah, I'm not a fan of APAC for the reason that I'm just about to give, actually, which is that APAC exists.
00:44:39.000Their raison d'etre, their entire purpose for existing, is to secure large-scale annual appropriations, currently about $3.8 billion annually, in U.S. aid to Israel.
00:44:50.000I'm not a particularly big fan of foreign aid in general, and I've been arguing for literally a decade that the U.S. should wind down foreign aid to Israel in particular.
00:44:58.000I think it actually is a bad idea for both countries.
00:45:30.000Yeah, so you obviously can't do it tomorrow because that would be to betray an ally in the middle of a hot war that would send a terrible signal to other allies, Saudis, Emiratis, you name it.
00:45:54.000And then from Israel's perspective, it's also bad for them too because it makes them overly reliant.
00:45:58.000It actually ends up undermining the entire notion of Zionism, the notion that the Jews should control their own right to their own existence in their own homeland undermines Zionism in the long run itself.
00:46:07.000So it's actually bad for both countries.
00:46:09.000But Charlie, this notion that AIPAC is this big, powerful lobby can be dispelled with literally one anecdote.
00:46:15.000And I only need one anecdote to dispel this oft-repeated notion, which is the entire 2014 to 2015 Barack Obama-Iran nuclear debate.
00:46:23.000The fact that the JCPOA, Barack Obama's joint comprehensive plan of action nuclear deal passed, is literally the singular data point that disproves the entire alleged existence of the nefarious Israel lobby that controls all politicians there.
00:46:37.000They failed epically to get that pass.
00:46:40.000But I do have a question, Charlie, for Dave there, which is...
00:46:44.000Well, Charlie, I would be very, very curious, based on Dave's recent tweets about Donald Trump doing XYZ things, whether it's covering up for a pedophile ring or engaging in foreign wars, all on behest of a foreign power, does Dave actually think that Donald Trump, J.D. Vance, and the entire Trump administration are literally bought off by the Jews?
00:47:42.000Therefore, if I have one data point of where a policy that APAC didn't want gets through, that disproves the whole narrative.
00:47:48.000And then this distraction with talking about the Armenian lobby or this other, it's like, yeah, well, if we were having a discussion about that, maybe that would come up.
00:48:28.000No, it is totally different to have a group of Americans advocating for a constitutionally protected natural right for American citizens than to have a group of Americans advocating for a foreign government in conjunction with that foreign government.
00:49:31.000You can save babies by providing ultrasounds with a pre-born.
00:49:35.000Together with the Sanctity of Human Life Month, we're going to save 35,000 babies to show the world that not only do we believe life is precious, but we're going to do something about it.
00:49:44.000Your gift to pre-born will give a girl the truth about what's happening in her body so that she can make the right choice.
00:49:49.000What better way to start this new year than to join us to save babies?
00:49:53.000And $28 a month will save a baby a month all year long.
00:49:57.000A $15,000 gift will provide a complete ultrasound machine that will save thousands of babies for years and years to come.
00:50:03.000It will also save moms from a lifetime of pain and regret.
00:50:07.000I am a donor to this organization, and you should be too.
00:50:10.000Start this new year by being a hero for life.
00:50:13.000Call 833-850-2229 or click on the pre-born banner at CharlieKirk.com.
00:50:18.000That is CharlieKirk.com and click on the Preborn banner.
00:50:34.000Because look, I wouldn't, some people would ask the question, okay, does APAC have more power than like your traditional Armenian lobby?
00:50:46.000And more broadly, let's just take it more broadly, like, is there any concern that, or how would you address the concern, let me put it this way, how would you address the concern that some people have that a foreign government tends to have an outsized amount of platform in the U.S. government?
00:51:05.000Charlie, I think that there are tens, if not hundreds of millions of Americans who care a lot about U.S. relations with the state of Israel for understandable reasons.
00:51:16.000This literally goes back, by the way, those of you who are familiar with your American history, this literally goes back to the American founding.
00:51:22.000The American founders were extremely, extremely eloquent and outspoken about this.
00:51:27.000From George Washington to John Adams to Hamilton to Abraham Lincoln's famous February 1861 speech referring to Americans as an almost chosen people.
00:51:35.000They quoted the Hebrew Bible over and over and over again.
00:51:38.000They understood that the Christianity upon which America is predicated is not exclusively, but has a lot of Old Testament Hebrew Bible emphasis therein.
00:51:49.000And that has been part of our Constitution, part of our legal code, part of our moral code since day one.
00:51:54.000So it is completely reasonable for people in the year 2025 to look at that, to look at all the other things we've talked about when it comes to deterring Islamism and Sharia supremacism, when it comes to trying to achieve this Abraham Accord-style nationalist realist foreign policy, when it comes to deterring the Iranian regime and their various proxies, it's very, very understandable for American citizens, again, Americans, to look at that and to conclude that we have important reasons for allying with Israel.
00:52:20.000They are not doing so on behalf of a foreign government.
00:52:26.000They are doing so because they are patriotic Americans and they feel it is their subjective sense that as patriotic Americans that this alliance is further.
00:53:00.000Secondly, though, and Josh did not say this, but he laced it in through one of the salvos that was, he said, you know, Dave, you're accusing them of being bought by the Jews.
00:53:10.000Now, Dave, there is a rise of, I just think, some disgusting stuff online.
00:53:35.000And so, Dave, though, how do you navigate being critical of a foreign government while also, like, some people say, well, your fans hate you.
00:53:49.000At the same time, though, Dave, you have a big responsibility on your shoulders, right?
00:53:52.000Because you're saying something that is heterodox, not in popular opinion, that some people are trying to use to push a much more sinister agenda.
00:54:00.000Yeah, well, I think there's a lot of truth to that.
00:54:03.000And I think that the fact is that the policies that America, the U.S. government is pursuing are almost guaranteed to create this.
00:54:15.000And look, I think there's a lot of factors here.
00:54:17.000I don't have nearly enough time to kind of give all of my thoughts on this.
00:54:20.000But I think as you young people know, right, even though kind of over the last year with Trump's victory, wokeism has been receding, at least to some degree, it really can't be overstated how much every institution in American life bought into racialism over the last 15 years.
00:54:40.000And it's like these young kids came up in an environment where that was just considered normal.
00:54:44.000Like you judge people by their race and make racialist arguments.
00:54:48.000And yes, now that has also been embraced by some people on the right.
00:54:52.000I will say that I think what I think the best thing to always do in these situations is tell the truth, try to be a good person, try to deliver your message in the most compelling way, and let the chips fall where they may.
00:55:06.000But I do think that the level of Israeli control over our politics is frankly pretty undeniable as much as people try to.
00:55:14.000Look, just think one example, right, of this.
00:55:17.000So Donald Trump, you remember at the end of the 12-day war when Donald Trump starts pushing for a ceasefire, and then what does Israel do?
00:55:24.000They come in and start bombing regime targets, not nuclear sites.
00:56:37.000If the Israeli government were to agree that that is the best policy, and if the United States were to do that, then what in God's name is your actual problem?
00:57:16.000And we still haven't gotten to the final conclusion.
00:57:19.000So let's talk Gaza because first I want to go, Josh, on October 7th, because I want you to remind people what happened on October 7th.
00:57:25.000And Dave, I'll be honest, I think your portion of the debate, your portion of your community could do a better job of remembering the horror on October 7th.
00:58:18.000So I was also there a few months after it happened.
00:58:22.000If you haven't been there, it's very difficult to describe what you see.
00:58:25.000You see these kibbutzim, these small villages.
00:58:28.000By the way, these were typically left-wingers.
00:58:30.000These were peaceniks that were establishing their villages on the border to try to engage in pen-pal diplomacy, if you will, with the Arabs of Gaza.
00:58:38.000These are very kind of left-wing peacenik people.
00:58:41.000And you see just kitchenware throughout the streets, teddy bears everywhere, blood-stained walls, bullet holes as far as the eye can see.
00:58:53.000The only time that I had that similar feeling walking around places like Kafaraza was when I was in Treblinka, the Nazi concentration camp itself.
00:58:59.000So, look, in total, and there's a brand new report talking about the extent of the mass raping and sexual violence that Hamas committed on October 7th combined, you're looking at roughly 1,200 people slaughtered.
00:59:11.000By the way, not all Israeli nationals.
00:59:13.000Dozens of Americans were either murdered or taken hostage in Gaza as well.
00:59:18.000In total, something like 40 to 50 different nationalities were represented of those who were slaughtered on October 7th.
00:59:24.000In fact, just looking at it from a very strictly, narrowly American perspective, October 7th amounted on its own terms to the largest American-only hostage crisis since Tehran in 1979 because of all the American citizens who were then taken hostage into Gaza.
01:00:08.000Israel repeatedly, time and time again, decided not to try to topple Hamas under the idea that you could potentially have an even worse alternative, better to deal with the devil that you know, and so forth there.
01:00:20.000October 7th, I think extremely reasonably, given the sheer level of carnage and terror and just outright satanic, demonic evil that happened, they quite reasonably concluded that that policy simply had to end.
01:00:32.000And what's happened in Gaza for the past year and a half, almost two years now, has been a protracted war in one of the most condensed urban environments in the world.
01:00:40.000It is very, very, very, very difficult war-fighting conditions.
01:00:44.000I would like to remind you just of at least one or two very simple facts.
01:00:48.000One is that let's not forget that Hamas, who Israel is at war against in Gaza, is a U.S.-recognized foreign terrorist organization.
01:00:56.000They are indistinguishable in that respect from al-Qaeda or ISIS or any of these other foreign terrorist organizations.
01:01:02.000They are a rabid jihadist network that, like all these other jihadis and Sharia supremacists, also wants to kill not merely Jews, but Christians and all infidels.
01:01:10.000They say that very clearly in the 1987 founding charter.
01:01:21.000And I am a firm believer in Genesis 127, that we are all made in God's image.
01:01:25.000That is one of my foundational beliefs in everything.
01:01:29.000I write about this at great length in my book, Israel and Civilization.
01:01:34.000To me, that's the single foundational ethical imperative of all of Western civilization.
01:01:37.000It informs my pro-life views and so much else.
01:01:40.000So I, like you and like so many others, also weep whenever innocent people are dead.
01:01:45.000There are two points to make, and I'll make them very briefly because I know I'm sensitive to time.
01:01:48.000One is that we know, because we actually have people like John Spencer, the head of urban warfare studies at West Point, who have actually been able to crunch numbers, we know that when you actually look at the civilian to combatant death ratios in Gaza, it is the most humane civilian to combatant death ratio in the entire history of urban warfare.
01:02:08.000John Spencer was there, by the way, in 2016, 2017 in Fallujah, Iraq, during the Trump-led ISIS counterinsurgency.
01:02:15.000The United States Army, God bless them, did not even do quite as well as the IDF in terms of civilian to combatant death ratio, according to John Spencer of West Point.
01:02:24.000Point number two, which is a very simple point that Dave Smith and his friends always like to look over, is that when you're just trying to ascribe moral culpability to every single tragic death in Gaza, Charlie, you made this point so, so well in your recent debates over in England against these high-fluid and British foe intellectuals at Cambridge and Oxford, when you said that the moral culpability comes with people who are using human shields.
01:02:48.000That is just basic morality and logic 101.
01:02:51.000So that is essentially how I see Gaza.
01:02:52.000I know Dave has plenty to say in response to that.
01:02:54.000So Dave, take two minutes and then I have a crisp follow-up.
01:02:57.000Yeah, I mean, geez, there's a lot there.
01:03:01.000First of all, look, if you support what Israel's doing to Gaza right now, I would just, like, my advice to you guys is just know that you never have a leg to stand on claiming to be pro-life for the rest of your life.
01:04:00.000Well, let me respond to a few of the things that Josh claimed.
01:04:02.000I mean, if you want to go, there was just a major report a couple weeks ago in Heretz, the Israeli newspaper, where they had a bunch of IDF soldiers.
01:04:09.000They actually had one who went on record who was saying that they were ordered to shoot at crowds of people who were going into left-wing filth, by the way.
01:04:30.000Look, Josh is just lying when he says that Israel supported Hamas for all those years because they feared there might be a worse alternative.
01:04:51.000Netanyahu thought he had this brilliant idea, which is that he would prop up Hamas and keep them in power.
01:04:57.000His exact quote was, we can control the Height of the flame.
01:05:01.000So he was like, We'll keep these terrorists in power, and that way we can tell the entire international community that, look, we have no partner for peace, we have no one to deal with here, and that way we never have to negotiate with the Palestinians.
01:05:14.000This was the game that he played, and it blew up in his face and really blew up in the Israeli people's face on October 7th.
01:05:20.000And I've never downplayed October 7th.
01:05:23.000I know, but I'm just making the point that I never have.
01:05:37.000Awful, atrocious acts were committed by Hamas terrorists.
01:05:41.000But at the same time, Benjamin Netanyahu, who was propping those guys up, in fact, according to the Israeli former defense secretary, he sent the head of the Mossad to Qatar to, quote, beg them to continue shipping the money in.
01:05:57.000Meanwhile, they had a blockade around Gaza.
01:06:00.000They wouldn't let sugar, they wouldn't let potatoes in, because they claim that's dual use.
01:06:05.000That could be used to build rockets so the kids can't get food.
01:06:10.000Yet, hundreds of millions of dollars in cash directly to Hamas.
01:06:15.000I guess money doesn't have a dual use.
01:06:18.000So, you know, the whole mission of this, what you can't even really call a war, because it's not a war, it's the destruction of a captive people.
01:06:27.000Gaza's been occupied since 1967 by the Israelis.
01:06:31.000And they're now just slaughtering the people there under, that's a fact.
01:06:36.000And it's under the supposed goal that they want to eliminate Hamas, and they want to retrieve the hostages.
01:06:44.000And yet, Hamas is not being eliminated.
01:06:48.000The Israeli government is claiming that they've killed 20,000 of their fighters, and yet there's still as many as there were at the beginning.
01:06:55.000Let me ask you the follow-up that I wish that I had an answer to when you were on the Joe Rogan show, but that thing descended into a mess, right?
01:07:13.000I know you might say, well, don't kill kids, but hold on.
01:07:16.000How would you say you would be okay for Israel to respond?
01:07:18.000Because it would be a defensive war at that time.
01:07:21.0001,300 of their own kids and women were killed and raped.
01:07:24.000So please just answer, how then would you be okay with Israel responding to October 7th?
01:07:29.000Yeah, well, I certainly, look, I'm not saying that Israel was going to respond with zero violence from after October 7th.
01:07:37.000But I think the important thing to remember here is that, first of all, for the entire history of Israel's existence, they've been dealing with this terrorism problem.
01:07:47.000Now, I would argue that the Palestinians have been dealing with a terrorism problem from Israel as well.
01:07:51.000But this is, and they've never, until Netanyahu, they never treated it as a problem for the regular old military.
01:07:58.000It was always targeted assassinations and special ops.
01:08:02.000And look, the truth is, this is the fact, right?
01:08:04.000When you have been occupying a group of people since 1967, Israel has completely controlled Gaza.
01:08:34.000So when people break out of Gaza and just start slaughtering civilians in Israel, yes, it was a horrible day and the world feels for those civilians, but at the same time, you have to know if you're Israel that the way that you respond to this is going to be how you're characterized in the international community.
01:08:53.000And so you would at least make some effort to not kill so many civilians.
01:08:58.000You can't, dude, Smotrich, the finance minister, was bragging for three months that not one ounce of grain would get into Gaza.
01:09:15.000This is a war on the civilian population.
01:09:18.000And then, as is reported, admitted by IDF.
01:09:21.000By the way, this is admitted by the Israeli government.
01:09:23.000You can say whatever you want about Horetz.
01:09:25.000They denied that they gave the orders, but they admitted that it was the IDF who was shooting at those people.
01:09:30.000Then after you deny the civilians food for three months, then you start shooting at the people who are desperately trying to get some food for them and their kids.
01:10:59.000Hamas is the jihadist U.S.-recognized foreign terrorist organization that in their founding charter, by the way, they were founded simply as the Palestinian Arab offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood.
01:11:10.000Well, no, I'm not going to sit here while he interrupts me every time I say he can ever interrupt me.
01:11:17.000Look, I know there are a lot of choices when it comes to who you choose for your cell phone service.
01:11:22.000There are new ones popping up all the time.
01:11:23.000But the truth is, there's only one that boldly stands in the gap for every American that believes that freedom is worth fighting for, And that is Patriot Mobile.
01:11:32.000For more than 12 years, Patriot Mobile has been on the front lines fighting for our God-given rights and freedoms, also providing exceptional nationwide cell phone service with access to all three of the main networks.
01:11:43.000Don't just take my word for it, as the hundreds of thousands of Americans who have made the switch and are now supporting causes they believe in simply by joining Patriot Mobile.
01:11:53.000Switching is easier than ever to activate minutes from the comfort of your own home.
01:11:57.000Keep your number, keep your phone or upgrade.
01:12:00.000Patriot Mobile's all U.S.-based support teams standing by to take care of you.
01:12:04.000Call 972 Patriot today or go to PatriotMobile.com slash Charlie.
01:12:08.000It's going to code Charlie for a free month of service.
01:12:11.000Go to PatriotMobile.com slash Charlie or call 972 Patriot and make the Twitch today.
01:12:18.000Dave, respectfully, you are criticizing him for interrupting.
01:12:28.000Hamas calls in their founding charter for the death not merely of every Israeli, not merely every Jew, but of every infidel, which they identify as not merely all Christians, but also all Muslims who don't subscribe to their idiosyncratic form of Sunni Sharia supremacism.
01:12:44.000So the group in Hamas, assuming the group in Gaza that is not pro-life, is Hamas.
01:12:49.000And Hamas has the unequivocal, and I would argue sole moral culpability for the human shield-induced deaths of all the women, civilians, and babies when they are indiscriminately firing rockets, mortars, and missiles from mosques, from United Nations schools, and on.
01:13:09.000Once upon a time, anyone with any decent functioning moral compass or any knowledge of international law 101 would have been able to tell you that.
01:13:18.000But again, it's just you pivot to blaming Hamas, and they're the ones who aren't pro-life.
01:13:22.000As if I was making the claim that Hamas is pro-life, I'm criticizing Benjamin Netanyahu for funding and propping up this horrific terrorist organization.
01:13:30.000So how are you in one breath going to talk about how terrible they are and then completely remove culpability from the guy who kept them?
01:13:54.000But at the same time, like, it's kind of, you know, if, let's say, like, in a domestic criminal situation, if there was somebody who killed a bunch of people and then they ran into a school and they're like using the kids as human shields, they're hiding behind the kids.
01:14:07.000And then your local police department came over and said, blow up the school and killed all the kids.
01:14:12.000You wouldn't go, well, they have no moral responsibility because they were using them as human shields.
01:14:16.000Yeah, as Bill Burr said in his special, you got to work around that, bro.
01:14:42.000And by the way, Israel also has a bunch of military targets in civilian areas.
01:14:47.000I'm just saying, that doesn't actually mean it's okay to just, now you have a moral get out of jail free card to do whatever you want to the poor innocent people who, as you pointed out, are also victims of Hamas.
01:15:09.000Charlie, honestly, I have not spent too much time on the details, but what I can tell you is this.
01:15:13.000We know for a fact that at least until the recent Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, which is this U.S.-organized NGO distributing aid, we know that prior to the establishment of this, Hamas was pilfering and confiscating a shockingly high percentage of the aid that entered Gaza, sometimes well more than 50%.
01:15:31.000They have monopoly of use of force in Gaza, and they were essentially just artificially inflating the prices of the actual Gazans' goods and then stealing it all for themselves.
01:15:52.000Hamas are the ones who actually have started indiscriminately shooting, even much more so than whatever anecdote Dave Smith is talking about.
01:15:58.000Hamas is the one that has actually started indiscriminately shooting at this U.S., perpetuated this U.S. orchestrated new aid distribution organization because Hamas doesn't like the fact that the United States under Donald Trump, God bless him, has found a way to get around the Hamas monopoly on aid distribution in Gaza.
01:16:38.000So I support the Trump Doctrine of Foreign Policy.
01:16:41.000I have been a staunch proponent of the Trump Doctrine since the Trump Doctrine first came into instantiation during the first Trump presidency.
01:16:48.000The Trump Doctrine, again, is neither neoconservative nor isolationist.
01:16:52.000It is a nationalist, realist, America-first approach to foreign policy that understands three things.
01:16:58.000One, America's number one focus this century must be on combating our actual civilizational foe, the Chinese Communist Party.
01:17:07.000Three, the way to deal with both those two is to prioritize in non-Indo-Pacific regions of the world, allies who are capable of securing and patrolling their neck of the woods in a way that redounds not just to their national interests, but to the American national interests.
01:17:24.000We've seen that time and time again throughout the Middle East.
01:17:27.000And again, Charlie, just to drive home this point there, the guy who understands this better than anyone, despite this whole kind of very online debate about what MAGA or America First should think about foreign policy and U.S.S relations, the guy who understands this the best, as he recently reminded us, is the guy who literally defined the terms, MAGA and America First.
01:17:44.000To Donald Trump, it is completely commonsensical.
01:17:58.000We saw the B-2 bombers do what they did, and God bless them for dropping those bombs in that 37-hour interval.
01:18:03.000That would not have been possible were it not for the Israelis laying the groundwork with the Iranian air defenses and Hezbollah the year prior in 2024.
01:18:11.000It was the Trump doctrine and U.S.-Israel relations at work.
01:18:14.000So, Charlie, my vision is for an independent Israel where we ultimately wind down aid and for Israel to be the beacon of protecting and securing American interests in the Middle East, just like other countries can then take responsibility in different regions of the world so that America can then focus on China.
01:18:33.000Look, I think if you guys are being honest with yourselves, and I do think we should really think about the threats that we really do face here at home, and I'm talking about the Democrats coming back into power.
01:18:45.000Forget all these made-up threats about other countries that really can't mess with us at all.
01:18:49.000I don't know if you guys have noticed, and you could say it's a very online debate all you want to, this hasn't been a good month for Donald Trump.
01:18:55.000His base is really kind of turning on each other, and these are major issues that are dividing his coalition.
01:19:04.000And this is J.D. Vance winning in a few years is not a given.
01:19:08.000You know, like the Democrats are going to come back and offer someone.
01:19:11.000And if we want to have a chance to keep progress going and to get our country in a better place, what we have to do is reject empire and return to being a republic that we were supposed to be.
01:19:23.000The United States of America was never supposed to be an empire.
01:19:26.000We were supposed to be a republic, a constitutional republic, a city on a hill that the world could learn from our example because we do liberty so much better than anybody else does.
01:19:37.000And we've gotten so far away from that over the years.
01:19:39.000And like I mentioned at the beginning, look, this is the big point.
01:19:47.000It shouldn't even be a question of whether we should be giving Israel money or whether we should be giving Ukraine money as Donald Trump's also decided to do this year.
01:20:10.000Your whole generation is getting screwed over by this because we have to devalue our currency in order to keep up with the demands for this spending that we cannot afford.
01:20:21.000And so the answer is that we need to pull back.
01:20:35.000Not a government that spends $7 trillion a year and a crazy casino system on Wall Street with these incredibly low interest rates where people are making tens of millions of dollars off just speculating on nonsense.
01:20:48.000And this is what, it's the warfare state that drives it.
01:20:51.000Look, guys, we have spent $20 trillion since the collapse of the Soviet Union.
01:20:57.000The war in Iraq and Afghanistan are over.
01:21:01.000And we're looking at our biggest defense budget ever.
01:21:04.000This is madness, and it will be the death of our country.
01:21:07.000No Islamist is going to take down our country, but drowning in debt and empire will.
01:21:53.000And we need to call it out when we see it.
01:21:55.000And finally, I think the fifth is that I hope we demonstrated, and both our participants got a little lively at times, that this is a debate worth having, that it's better to have this out in the open than silence people and censor them and call them names.
01:22:10.000Instead, this is how we solve our problems.
01:22:12.000Give it up for Josh and Dave one last time, everybody.