The Charlie Kirk Show - The Dirty Truth about Dirty Jobs vs College Degrees with Mike Rowe

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody.

00:00:00.000 Tana Charlie Kirk Show.

00:00:01.000 Mike Rowe joins us.

00:00:03.000 What a great conversation this is.

00:00:04.000 We talk about the muscular class, working with your hands, talk about do you really need to go to college and more?

00:00:11.000 Check out microworks.org.

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00:00:25.000 Email me as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:00:28.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:29.000 Here we go.

00:00:30.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:00:32.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

00:00:34.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

00:00:37.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

00:00:41.000 I want to thank Charlie.

00:00:42.000 He's an incredible guy.

00:00:43.000 His spirit, his love of this country, he's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.

00:00:50.000 Turning point USA. 0.65

00:00:51.000 We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.

00:01:00.000 That's why we are here.

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00:01:20.000 That is noblegoldinvestments.com.

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00:01:28.000 It's Mike Rowe, founder and CEO of MikeRowWorks.org.

00:01:32.000 Mike, welcome to the program.

00:01:34.000 Charlie, thanks for having me.

00:01:35.000 I will endeavor to be thoughtful and cogent.

00:01:39.000 Well, very good.

00:01:40.000 So, Mike, tell us about microworks.org.

00:01:43.000 It's a terrific project.

00:01:45.000 Introduce our audience to it, please.

00:01:47.000 Sure.

00:01:49.000 I did a show called Dirty Jobs for about 20 years.

00:01:52.000 And back in 2008, that show was one of the number, I think it was the number one show on Discovery, maybe on cable.

00:02:00.000 I don't remember.

00:02:00.000 It was a big deal.

00:02:02.000 And a lot of nice things were happening for me.

00:02:04.000 And the country went into a recession, which was not so nice.

00:02:08.000 And then there were 11 million unemployed people, which was not so nice.

00:02:13.000 And then I noticed in the course of filming Dirty Jobs, everywhere we went, we saw something really unusual.

00:02:19.000 We saw help-wanted signs.

00:02:21.000 So that was the first time in my life where I realized that a lot of unemployed people didn't have really anything directly to do with a lack of jobs.

00:02:34.000 There were 2.3 million open positions in the country at that point.

00:02:39.000 Most of them didn't require a four-year degree.

00:02:41.000 They required the mastery of a skill, right?

00:02:44.000 And so I began to think of these things as dirty jobs opportunities.

00:02:48.000 And they were all better than most people thought.

00:02:51.000 Many of them provided a direct path to make six figures.

00:02:54.000 Anyway, Microworks started as an attempt to shine a light on those opportunities as they existed back in 2008, 2009.

00:03:03.000 It evolved into a trade resource center that was built by fans of Dirty Jobs so people could go online and they could search for opportunities in plumbing or heating and air conditioning, electric, welding, mechanical, all those things.

00:03:19.000 So suddenly we had this really cool trade resource center that was going from coast to coast.

00:03:25.000 We had thousands of opportunities being highlighted.

00:03:28.000 Again, none of which required a four-year degree.

00:03:31.000 Flashing forward, it's really become a kind of, well, it's a scholarship program.

00:03:38.000 We award a couple million dollars every year in work ethics scholarships.

00:03:42.000 In fact, we just started a new round yesterday.

00:03:44.000 So I'll be shamelessly flogging that over the course of our conversation.

00:03:48.000 But we also developed a work ethic curriculum, which we finally got into a big high school just last week in Las Vegas.

00:03:57.000 So we're super excited about that.

00:03:59.000 The short version is microworks exist to shine a light on opportunities that don't require a four-year degree to make a more persuasive case for work ethic to challenge stigmas, stereotypes, myths, and misperceptions that keep a whole generation of kids from pursuing all of these opportunities.

00:04:17.000 And we try and do it with a measure of ennui, self-deprecation, irony, and good humor.

00:04:23.000 Well, I love it.

00:04:24.000 And that is certainly on message for us.

00:04:26.000 I have, and still am, a critic of four-year college in its current form and fashion and what it is not delivering.

00:04:32.000 One of the things I was struck by watching your television program growing up is how much people love their job, even though it was...

00:04:41.000 Can you comment on that?

00:04:42.000 And I don't know, you were like at some place shoveling manure or, I mean, I don't know, just like the stereotypical.

00:04:48.000 And then you would always ask them, hey, what do you think?

00:04:51.000 Like, I love my job.

00:04:52.000 And I was just, it's almost every single episode had something of that essence.

00:04:58.000 Well, we really, look, I wish I could tell you that that was a thing that I always believed in my soul was happening in the workforce, but just needed to be elevated.

00:05:10.000 I didn't know that.

00:05:12.000 All I knew for sure is that my granddad, Carl Noble, only went to the seventh grade and was a skilled tradesman in virtually every field.

00:05:22.000 He could build a house without a blueprint.

00:05:23.000 And I wanted to do a show that elevated men and women like him who had that set of skills.

00:05:31.000 But once we got into it, like season two, season three, season four, we did 350 of these jobs.

00:05:39.000 But once we got into it, you're right.

00:05:41.000 People started asking me, what do these dirty jobbers know as a group that the rest of us forgotten?

00:05:51.000 Because they all seem to be having a ball and they're all covered with feces from every species and toilets are exploding in people's faces and you're up to your neck in misadventures and animal husbandry. 0.56

00:06:02.000 And right?

00:06:03.000 So it just, there was a really fun level of cognitive dissonance between the adversity and the challenge posed by all of these jobs collectively and the great joy and good humor and pride that we found in the people who were doing it.

00:06:19.000 So I guess it's kind of an obvious thing.

00:06:22.000 I mean, if you grew up, you know, with a certain set of values instilled upon you, you would never think to make work the enemy.

00:06:29.000 You would suppose that there'd be dignity in all jobs.

00:06:33.000 But what we learned in 2004, 2005, and certainly today is that our country has to a certain degree made work into the enemy.

00:06:45.000 We have made work the proximate cause of our discontent.

00:06:53.000 And in so many ways, you can see this play out from Madison Avenue in sitcoms and portrayals of skilled tradespeople and so forth.

00:07:02.000 And, you know, not to make it a polemic, but it became real clear that there were warring narratives in the country.

00:07:12.000 One had to do with the basic dignity of work, and the other had to do with the point I just made, which was the best path for the most people had to be a four-year degree.

00:07:24.000 And to challenge those ideas, right, to shine a light on the skills gap and say, look, this is not a figment of our imagination.

00:07:35.000 We have right now, Charlie, and I know you know this, 11 million unfilled jobs in our country.

00:07:43.000 Most of them don't require a four-year degree.

00:07:45.000 They require training.

00:07:47.000 And so, you know, my soapbox for all this really comes down to the existence of all that opportunity juxtaposed with $1.7 trillion in student loans and our stubborn insistence to still tell a whole generation of kids that they're screwed without a four-year degree.

00:08:07.000 It's nuts.

00:08:08.000 And Mike, as you were going, you know, episode 30, 40, how happy they are regardless of what they're doing, you contrast that if you walk into Google.

00:08:17.000 I don't think that their coders are as happy as someone who is on was, and I mean this, was it just the shtick for the cameras or were they legitimately like joyous?

00:08:27.000 I mean, I'm curious because most employers are saying they have a mental health crisis with their workers, yet you demonstrated over 350 episodes, the joy in doing what most people wouldn't even think of doing, the incomprehensible.

00:08:40.000 A lot of people thought it was put on.

00:08:42.000 And to be honest, I did too for a little while because reality TV has a way of feeding on itself, you know, the Heisenberg, right?

00:08:50.000 People start to do what they think you want them to do, but not on this show.

00:08:56.000 We didn't do second takes.

00:08:57.000 We didn't do any rehearsing.

00:08:59.000 We didn't do any casting.

00:09:00.000 We never did any writing.

00:09:02.000 We were true fly-on-the-wall observers of work.

00:09:06.000 And, you know, we showed you precisely what we saw.

00:09:11.000 So look, the short answer to your question really comes down to job satisfaction.

00:09:18.000 And what we're doing today, we're telling kids, look, if you want to be happy in your work, the first thing you do is identify the job you believe you want to do.

00:09:27.000 And then you go about the business of borrowing whatever it takes to get whatever credential is required.

00:09:33.000 And then you'll have the right to sit in a cubicle somewhere and code or do whatever you're going to do.

00:09:38.000 And then you can let yourself be happy.

00:09:40.000 Well, that's backwards, right?

00:09:41.000 On dirty jobs, these people were very passionate about what they did, Charlie, but they didn't follow their passion.

00:09:47.000 They followed the opportunity and then they figured out a way to love it.

00:09:51.000 So Mike, please answer that question.

00:09:53.000 Is there something inherently dignifying for a human being to work with their hands?

00:09:58.000 There's something inherently satisfying.

00:10:01.000 Dignity, I think, is one of those things we get to assign to any task.

00:10:07.000 That's really up to us.

00:10:08.000 And I guess to some degree, satisfaction is too.

00:10:11.000 But one of the big lessons on dirty jobs, and certainly one of the things you can find if you peruse the Old and New Testament, is the satisfaction that comes from always knowing how you're doing, right?

00:10:26.000 Yes.

00:10:26.000 Like I'm sitting here at my desk right now talking to you and I'm looking around and everything on it is pretty much going to be on it eight hours from now.

00:10:39.000 My desk looks, it looks like it looks at 6 a.m. and it looks the same at 6 p.m.

00:10:47.000 So I might sit here and I might write something really thoughtful.

00:10:52.000 I might create something good.

00:10:55.000 I might say something wise.

00:10:57.000 Who the heck knows?

00:10:58.000 But I don't have any visual cues in my life to tell me how I'm doing when I'm working at my desk.

00:11:05.000 Not really.

00:11:06.000 When you're inspecting a sewer or building a bridge or mining for coal or gold or something in between or fishing on the Bering Sea or cleaning skulls in Oklahoma City.

00:11:20.000 Yeah, that's a job.

00:11:22.000 You always know how you're doing.

00:11:24.000 And it took a while.

00:11:26.000 Again, I'm not sure how many lessons I learned doing the show or how many lessons I was reminded of that I had forgotten.

00:11:35.000 But that's a big one.

00:11:36.000 The simple joy of knowing how you're doing at all times is a big benefit of working with your hands and mastering a skill.

00:11:46.000 And being able to track your progress and to have some sort of a destination.

00:11:50.000 For example, hey, I got to put up this drywall.

00:11:52.000 I have to paint this wall.

00:11:54.000 Can you contrast that, Mike, with the kind of purposelessness, for lack of a better term, or lack of purpose that you find in, you know, upper middle class corporate culture where you sit at the desk, answer the phone, and it's kind of as if you're on an endless circle.

00:12:09.000 Well, rather than pick on them, let's pick on our own industry, right?

00:12:15.000 I mean, you work really hard.

00:12:17.000 I've seen your work at Turning Point.

00:12:19.000 It's great.

00:12:19.000 I've listened to your show.

00:12:21.000 I like it.

00:12:23.000 I work hard too.

00:12:24.000 And then we're done.

00:12:26.000 And what do we do?

00:12:28.000 I mean, if you're me, like maybe you'll go to your social pages and see what the response is.

00:12:34.000 Maybe you'll go to Nielsen to see if anybody's listening.

00:12:37.000 Maybe you'll go to Pod Track, you know, or whoever tracks your podcast.

00:12:42.000 Is your audience up?

00:12:43.000 Is it down?

00:12:44.000 Are the advertisers happy or are they sad?

00:12:47.000 Is Rough Greens coming back for six more or eight more?

00:12:51.000 Right?

00:12:52.000 Like, so we want to know how we're doing.

00:12:56.000 And it's not because we're craven or overly materialistic, but it's because we work and we understand there's a cause and an effect.

00:13:06.000 There's a customer, there's a client, there's a listener, there's a viewer, there's a producer, there's a writer.

00:13:13.000 So, you know, being aware of all of those things that are inherently true in the human condition, I do think helps everyone navigate whatever path they put themselves on.

00:13:29.000 My complaint is what we've done as a society.

00:13:33.000 My complaint is the way we've put our thumb on the scale and promoted one form of education and all the types of jobs that come with it at the expense of all the others.

00:13:48.000 Under the names of DEI and ESG, the largest asset managers have been using your money, your savings, to push politics into America's corporations.

00:13:57.000 For years, they've implemented an agenda that is anti-American capitalism at your expense without your permission.

00:14:03.000 There's an alternative.

00:14:04.000 At Strive, the only agenda is maximizing shareholder returns.

00:14:08.000 Pro-capitalism and pro-meritocracy.

00:14:11.000 Shareholders first, period.

00:14:12.000 To learn more about Strive's shareholder first investment options, visit Strive.com now.

00:14:20.000 Mike, please finish that thought.

00:14:22.000 Well, we were just talking about the way society elevates or de-elevates forms of education and by extension, certain jobs.

00:14:32.000 This happened.

00:14:33.000 Well, I mean, it happens all the time, but in my life, I first noticed it when we pulled Shop Class out of high school.

00:14:40.000 If there was a dumber thing fraught with more unintended consequences that's ever happened in the history of education, I'm not sure what it would be.

00:14:51.000 When we pulled Shop Class out of high school, we removed from view an entire category of jobs. 0.63

00:14:59.000 And we basically sent a message to a whole generation of kids that said, don't even bother.

00:15:04.000 I mean, don't even bother looking at opportunities in mechanical repair or carpentry or plumbing or electric or heating and air conditioning. 0.98

00:15:14.000 That was a remarkably powerful and profoundly stupid thing to do. 0.90

00:15:19.000 But we did it because we were trying to elevate the importance of a four-year degree. 0.97

00:15:24.000 And to be fair, back in the 70s, those degrees needed to be elevated.

00:15:29.000 We needed more engineers.

00:15:30.000 We needed more teachers.

00:15:31.000 We needed more doctors.

00:15:33.000 Fine.

00:15:34.000 But to promote that path by telling a whole generation of kids that they would be doing themselves a disservice by taking any other path, that's where we got into trouble.

00:15:46.000 And so on the one hand, I'm just saying it's PR.

00:15:50.000 You know, we elevate what we value, and that's a very conscious decision.

00:15:57.000 And so today, we don't just have a skills gap.

00:15:59.000 We have a will gap.

00:16:01.000 We have really identified a whole category of jobs as vocational consolation prizes, as something subordinate.

00:16:09.000 In other words, and now we're reaping the whirlwind.

00:16:12.000 And so I speak a lot about the topic of not going to college.

00:16:16.000 I wrote a book called The College Scam.

00:16:18.000 I didn't go to college.

00:16:19.000 And so I'm the best and worst person to address this.

00:16:22.000 And the objection I get from parents, they'll agree, hey, the colleges have gone, you know, ideologically off the reservation, but they'll always lean in and almost whisper, Mike, but I still want my kid to go to college.

00:16:35.000 Of course, because they're scared, Charlie.

00:16:37.000 They're scared.

00:16:38.000 There's no playbook.

00:16:40.000 We don't want to screw our kids up.

00:16:42.000 We want to give them every hope, every opportunity.

00:16:44.000 But look, the magic of college has become, in my view, decoupled from the education you can attain.

00:16:55.000 A college degree has nothing to do with wisdom.

00:16:59.000 It has nothing to do with smarts.

00:17:02.000 That's what they're selling.

00:17:04.000 But that's not really what's for sale.

00:17:07.000 What's for sale are connections and prestige and fear and a great many other things that go into the pressure that many, many, many millions of kids have felt when it comes time to sign on the dotted line.

00:17:22.000 They don't know what they want to be.

00:17:24.000 They don't know what they want to do.

00:17:26.000 They don't know what they want to major in.

00:17:27.000 But all of these questions need to be answered.

00:17:30.000 And then vast sums need to be borrowed.

00:17:33.000 And then the screws get tightened.

00:17:36.000 And that's what we did.

00:17:38.000 You know, it was a colossal disservice in my view.

00:17:43.000 And we're still doing it.

00:17:45.000 I'm looking at an article.

00:17:47.000 You should see this thing.

00:17:48.000 It's over on Axio.

00:17:49.000 I saw it this morning.

00:17:50.000 I was going to ask you.

00:17:50.000 It was on the deck to actually ask you.

00:17:52.000 I was going to play devil's advocate if we're talking about the same thing, which is that college is still necessary.

00:17:58.000 By the way, the data they share is all nonsense.

00:18:00.000 But please, Mike, I'd love to.

00:18:02.000 So the chart, okay.

00:18:04.000 Yes, we're on the same page.

00:18:07.000 Okay.

00:18:08.000 So the chart shows two things.

00:18:10.000 It shows people with four-year degrees earning an average of $60,000 a year.

00:18:15.000 And then it shows people with high school diplomas earning much less, something like $40,000, right?

00:18:22.000 And the author is just basically creating a giant advertisement for higher education, the same kind of ad that's been running for decades.

00:18:33.000 It's nonsense.

00:18:35.000 Are you kidding me?

00:18:36.000 Look, that's like saying that an expensive four-year school is going to lead you to make more money over the course of your life than if you stop your education at 18 years of age is like saying joining a really expensive gym is going to lead you to be healthier and more fit if you stop working out when you're 18.

00:18:58.000 Well, no kidding.

00:19:00.000 Of course.

00:19:00.000 That's exactly right.

00:19:03.000 But they completely ignore Charlie.

00:19:06.000 They completely, what about the kid who graduates high school and then goes to a trade school, goes through an apprenticeship program, starts welding, starts plumbing, buys a van, hires some friends, starts a mechanical contracting business and is now making $350,000 a year.

00:19:25.000 People who go through my foundation every day. 0.99

00:19:27.000 They're not on the shit. 0.99

00:19:28.000 I mean, you know, Mike, I have so much respect for the muscular class. 0.99

00:19:31.000 When I need HVAC or air conditioning work, they charge whatever they want.

00:19:35.000 I ask them what they're making, and they're making a lot more than their counterparts who got some flashy degree from the university down the road.

00:19:43.000 Mike, I'm so glad you saw that Axios piece.

00:19:46.000 And I just want to add kind of my take on it as well.

00:19:49.000 Number one, they don't mention that nearly that nearly, I think it's 41% of people that enter college don't graduate.

00:19:55.000 They don't graduate.

00:19:56.000 So there's the national dropout rate.

00:19:59.000 And they don't factor in continuing certification or being able to get skills after high school.

00:20:07.000 Yes, if you just stay as a high school graduate with your high school diploma, then you very well might stay in a certain income level.

00:20:15.000 And also, it doesn't factor in, by the way, it doesn't factor in your ability to ascend in the job and get more skills to become an entrepreneur, own your own business, and they don't factor in the debt burden, not to mention the ideological type pollutants that you very well avoid when you go to college.

00:20:34.000 Micro, I want to talk about this article here.

00:20:37.000 I just get the title so our audience can follow along, but your thoughts, Mike.

00:20:41.000 Well, they don't factor in any of the many individual characteristics that are within our ability to control.

00:20:48.000 Work ethic, delayed gratification, curiosity, initiative, ambition, all qualities that have a direct impact on the likelihood of a person to prosper.

00:21:04.000 What they do is they assume that all of those virtues are baked into a diploma, right?

00:21:14.000 That's the working assumption.

00:21:16.000 And it's completely backwards.

00:21:20.000 It's causation without correlation.

00:21:23.000 It's like that old study I remember reading about when I was in college that talked about the incredible way that reported ice cream sales increased in lockstep with reports of sexual assault.

00:21:40.000 It was amazing.

00:21:41.000 And people were like, what's happening here?

00:21:43.000 Is ice cream leading men to commit more rapes, more sexual assaults?

00:21:48.000 No, no.

00:21:49.000 It's just that in the summertime, when it gets hot, all sorts of interesting things start to happen sociologically.

00:21:57.000 Ice cream sales, for instance, go up, but so do, so too do all forms of violence and attacks.

00:22:04.000 And so it's so easy to be confused by facts that really aren't correlated at all.

00:22:13.000 And my argument today is really exactly that.

00:22:17.000 Yeah, a college degree is a thing and it can absolutely help you.

00:22:20.000 And in no way am I opposed to being curious and becoming as educated as you can, if you can afford it.

00:22:29.000 A college degree at any cost is laughable.

00:22:33.000 That's like saying a house at any cost, a gym membership at any cost.

00:22:37.000 The cost matters.

00:22:39.000 Never mind what you were talking about before vis-a-vis indoctrination and actually the quality of the education.

00:22:45.000 Assume it's all decent.

00:22:47.000 You can't simply argue, as this author is, that a degree is sacrosanct regardless of its price.

00:22:55.000 That's right.

00:22:56.000 And if I had to speculate, Mike, just, you know, I know Axios, they do a kind of a lot of industry type articles.

00:23:01.000 This feels as if this is a college industry article, meaning the kind of, would you agree that college enrollment is going down?

00:23:08.000 Faith in college is going down.

00:23:09.000 This feels like an article that's a paid for type article.

00:23:12.000 They're scared.

00:23:13.000 They are scared to death.

00:23:15.000 You can look at the numbers.

00:23:17.000 I'm not going to take a victory lap, but I do think my foundation, we're 16 years at this now.

00:23:24.000 I know we're moving the needle.

00:23:26.000 I know we've had an impact, at least getting people to at least think through the cost of the transaction.

00:23:34.000 But look, this is an existential problem if you really look beyond articles like this, which are just silly on their face.

00:23:41.000 You know, the college president scandal here of late, that's not silly.

00:23:48.000 Having donors who routinely stroke checks for many millions of dollars to Harvard and Penn and MIT and so forth, having those people go, hey, you know what?

00:24:00.000 Not this year.

00:24:01.000 I think I'm going to take a miss this year.

00:24:03.000 Right?

00:24:03.000 50 charges of plagiarism.

00:24:06.000 Really, Claudine?

00:24:07.000 50?

00:24:08.000 $51 billion in an endowment sitting there at Harvard alone, just sitting there.

00:24:15.000 And meanwhile, the whole country is watching a conversation where student debt is being forgiven, even as it's being shouldered by the people that my foundation helps train, people who affirmatively avoided the debt and learned a skill that was in demand, one of these muscular jobs, as you described them.

00:24:33.000 They're the people who are going to pay the freight.

00:24:35.000 And articles like this perpetuate the thinking that brings us to a place that I think is fundamentally unfair.

00:24:44.000 Vast majority of college grads a decade after graduation get a job that doesn't require a college degree, but the debt stays with them.

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00:25:40.000 This is not about judgment or making you feel bad.

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00:25:44.000 This is about a better tomorrow.

00:25:45.000 You'll be happier.

00:25:46.000 By the way, studies show that porn use leads to depression, anxiety, and more.

00:25:50.000 Victory combines industry-leading technology with decades of experience and leadership in recovery, content, accountability, and behavior change.

00:25:58.000 It works, everybody.

00:25:59.000 The Covenant Eyes Victory app with a powerful accountability tool, features built-in, and the optimal blocking technology makes it an unparalleled tool in the fight to live a porn-free life.

00:26:12.000 Living a porn-free life will bring you a new freedom to live honestly.

00:26:16.000 And remember, accountability is not others calling you out on your sin, but others wanting to call you up to the person you are in Christ.

00:26:23.000 Look, we're not here to make you feel bad.

00:26:24.000 We're here to challenge you to be a better version of yourself.

00:26:27.000 If you are currently struggling with pornography or you have a wandering eye, go to covenantees.com/slash Charlie.

00:26:32.000 Here's how it works: you download the app, you have an accountability partner, and this way, your website traffic and your searching, you're able to have a check and balance on it.

00:26:40.000 It's 30 days free by clicking on the link in the show notes today.

00:26:43.000 It is covenanteyes.com slash Charlie.

00:26:46.000 They're an amazing partner of this program.

00:26:48.000 Go to covenantees.com/slash Charlie.

00:26:53.000 So, Mike, I could still, I could tell you that, you know, I'll visit the suburbs of Chicago where I grew up, and certain friends and people that I know, they'll come up, they'll say, Charlie, you know, it's nice that you run Turning Point, you got 400 employees, all that stuff, but when are you going back to college?

00:27:08.000 And they mean it with a straight face.

00:27:10.000 They'll say, you know, we really got to get that piece of paper figured out, that diploma.

00:27:14.000 Mike, how do we deprogram that?

00:27:16.000 It is embedded in the psyche of, dare I, I don't want to say the ruling class, but just the managerial class in this country.

00:27:25.000 It is a it is a thought-terminating cliche that if you don't have a college degree, you're almost looked at as the unwashed in this country.

00:27:36.000 Yeah, it's look, the problem with the PR campaign that we were talking about before that higher education did need back in the 60s and 70s is that it went too far.

00:27:48.000 And it went so far that it came at the expense of all other forms of learning.

00:27:54.000 You're asking, how do we unwind that?

00:27:56.000 Yes.

00:27:57.000 Well, I think the same way we wound it up.

00:28:00.000 In my foundation, what I try and do is, I mean, initially, there wasn't much I could do except tell anecdotal stories about what I had seen and raise a lot of money.

00:28:11.000 We've given away about $9 million in work ethics scholarships so far.

00:28:17.000 But we didn't start to move the needle until I was able to circle back to people who we had assisted four or five years earlier and ask this question.

00:28:28.000 How's it going?

00:28:30.000 And all of a sudden, on camera, I'm listening to men and women, some of whom got a $6,000 welding certificate, tell me about the second kid who's on the way.

00:28:43.000 Tell me about the house they bought.

00:28:45.000 Tell me about the conspicuous lack of debt on their personal finance page.

00:28:50.000 And then tell me about the $140,000, $180,000 a year they're making as a result of mastering a skill that's in demand.

00:28:58.000 When you get people like that talking passionately to me about the opportunities that they unlocked by taking one of these skilled jobs, that moves the needle.

00:29:12.000 So we have to do that.

00:29:13.000 We have to carpet bomb the internet and we have to make a much more persuasive case for the opportunities that exist by challenging the myths and misperceptions and stigmas and stereotypes that keep people from giving them an honest look.

00:29:26.000 But the other thing that has to happen and shout out to Walmart because they're doing it.

00:29:32.000 They're removing the box.

00:29:33.000 I love it.

00:29:34.000 That's so important.

00:29:36.000 They're doing it.

00:29:38.000 Coke Industries is doing it.

00:29:41.000 I wish I had the whole list because those companies deserve a big shout out because it's risky.

00:29:48.000 It's scary.

00:29:50.000 And when the author of that article we were talking about sees big companies doing that thing, that's when they can feel the foundation starting to crumble beneath them.

00:30:00.000 Because look, ma'am, this is my final point on this, and it's an important one, because I get the same kind of pushback that you do when you go out there and you start challenging the primacy of a four-year degree.

00:30:14.000 I didn't have this thing.

00:30:16.000 And for the people listening, I'm holding up my cell phone right now.

00:30:19.000 I didn't have this device in 1984 when I was in college.

00:30:24.000 Part of what I paid for back then was access.

00:30:27.000 I needed access to information.

00:30:29.000 I was curious enough.

00:30:31.000 I was interested enough.

00:30:33.000 And I certainly benefited from some good instructors.

00:30:35.000 But really, the cost of college came down to access.

00:30:38.000 That's gone now.

00:30:39.000 That's right.

00:30:40.000 I have access to 98% of all the known information in the world.

00:30:45.000 I just watched a lecture at MIT last week for free, for free on a plane.

00:30:50.000 The same thing these kids are paying thousands of dollars for.

00:30:54.000 So I'm not saying an internet connection is the same thing as a degree from Harvard, but I am saying the information is the same.

00:31:03.000 The access is suddenly free.

00:31:06.000 And what are we doing?

00:31:07.000 How in the world did the cost of college go up during Zoom class, during the lockdowns? 0.76

00:31:14.000 How did they do that with a straight face?

00:31:16.000 How did Columbia increase everybody's tuition at a time when they weren't even welcomed in the classroom?

00:31:23.000 It's upside down, man.

00:31:24.000 It's that was always, you know, one of the one-liners that parents would give me.

00:31:29.000 Well, they get to meet a lot of people and it's a good chance to network.

00:31:32.000 You couldn't even do that during COVID.

00:31:34.000 It was all Zoom class, man. 0.99

00:31:37.000 You can do that in jail.

00:31:38.000 You can meet all kinds of interesting people in prison.

00:31:41.000 I don't recommend you send your kid.

00:31:43.000 Okay.

00:31:44.000 Look, again, my point was I am not anti-education.

00:31:50.000 And I'm not even, even though I loved your book, The College Scam, and even though I agree with most of it, I'm not anti-college.

00:31:59.000 I'm anti-cookie cutter advice.

00:32:02.000 I'm anti-bromide.

00:32:04.000 I'm anti-debt.

00:32:06.000 And I just need, I just wish people looked at this, one of the most consequential financial transactions in their life through the same lens as they look at any other large purchase and ask themselves the same practical questions separate and apart from, oh, it's an investment in your future.

00:32:27.000 No, it's not.

00:32:28.000 It's not an investment in your future.

00:32:30.000 It's a conscious decision you need to make about the best way to satisfy curiosity.

00:32:36.000 It's ridiculous to attach trillions of dollars to that.

00:32:39.000 Mike, can you also talk about how employers, you mentioned Coke and Walmart, they're not moving as far as them, but they're less and less satisfied with the crop of talent that college is producing.

00:32:53.000 Can you speak about that?

00:32:54.000 I can tell you in 1955, the average GPA of the average Harvard graduate was 2.5.

00:33:04.000 Today, the average GPA for the average Harvard graduate in 2023 was 3.9.

00:33:15.000 Now, did kids get that much smarter over the last 55, 60 years?

00:33:23.000 Or is it possible that the standards in the Ivy League have dipped?

00:33:29.000 Is it possible that we all got wind of the fact that what we're really buying is a credential and not necessarily an education?

00:33:41.000 Your point is exactly right.

00:33:42.000 And I have friends now.

00:33:44.000 I know a guy who runs a law firm and he still hires Harvard grads.

00:33:49.000 And he might very well wind up with a smart, curious young man or woman who has a great work ethic and is dedicated to being the best lawyer they can possibly be.

00:34:01.000 Or he might wind up with a third generation legacy kid who had a great time and showed up to some classes and used chat GPT to write some essays and got his 3.9 or hers.

00:34:17.000 It's hard to know.

00:34:18.000 And you're right.

00:34:19.000 It's a very strange thing to continue to bet on, but that's the power of inertia.

00:34:26.000 And that same tendency among a lot of companies to hire from certain schools and assign a certain value to an old rubric like a GPA, that's not dissimilar from the fear that parents have.

00:34:40.000 That's what varsity blues was all about.

00:34:43.000 By any means necessary, get my kid into the magic lane where the doors will swing open, right?

00:34:43.000 Yes.

00:34:51.000 So that's what you're fighting against.

00:34:54.000 So when you see a company like Walmart eliminate that box, you have to give them credit.

00:35:01.000 You know, there's a big story a couple of weeks ago.

00:35:03.000 I don't know if you saw it, but it's the $400,000 job at Walmart.

00:35:07.000 $400,000 a year to manage a super center.

00:35:10.000 No college degree required.

00:35:12.000 And they promote.

00:35:13.000 That's not an easy job, just so everyone's clear.

00:35:16.000 I mean, every day someone's doing something weird, stealing something.

00:35:19.000 You got inventory supply chains.

00:35:22.000 I wouldn't want that job.

00:35:23.000 However, I bet they love it because it's fulfilling and it's you could track your progress.

00:35:27.000 Not to mention it pays very well.

00:35:29.000 You can manage a Costco, manage the Chick-fil-A.

00:35:31.000 Those pay very, very well.

00:35:33.000 And so, so, Mike, the other talking point that some people will use is, but Charlie, the robots are going to replace all these jobs.

00:35:40.000 Now, hilariously, it turns out that the first wave of job displacement are the coders and the artists and the people that got these goofy degrees.

00:35:50.000 Mike Rowe, how do you answer the looming artificial intelligence?

00:35:53.000 The robots are coming to unemploy the working class talking point. 0.98

00:35:58.000 Yeah, I mean, look, history is a wheel, Charlie.

00:36:01.000 It spins.

00:36:02.000 And anybody with the aforementioned internet hookup can just Google the Luddite Rebellion.

00:36:10.000 And you can read about what the loomers did and what happened in the weaving industry in England hundreds of years ago when technology came along and posed an existential threat.

00:36:21.000 And it was crystal clear to the smartest brains out there that all the weavers were going to lose their jobs because of the advent of the loom.

00:36:30.000 It didn't happen.

00:36:31.000 Was there disruption?

00:36:33.000 Yeah.

00:36:33.000 But it changed in ways that we simply couldn't have anticipated.

00:36:40.000 My crystal ball is super cloudy with regard to where we're going to be in 10 years, courtesy of the robots, the tech, and the AI.

00:36:51.000 But I firmly believe that it's one door closes, another door opens.

00:36:59.000 This is, I'm not an expert in this area.

00:37:02.000 I do believe we're going to live to see self-driving cars.

00:37:07.000 I think we're going to live to see AI running buildings.

00:37:11.000 I think NVIDIA is probably going to double and then double again.

00:37:16.000 I hope so.

00:37:17.000 I own some, but it's hard to know how to feel about it because it also scares the heck out of me.

00:37:22.000 I got a thing in the mail the other day.

00:37:24.000 I said, Mike, you'll love this.

00:37:26.000 I asked an AI program to narrate these two paragraphs in the style of Mike Rowe narrating an episode of Deadliest Catch.

00:37:37.000 I clicked on the link, and you know something?

00:37:41.000 Had I not known it was computer generated, I would have assumed it was me narrating an old episode.

00:37:48.000 I couldn't tell the difference.

00:37:50.000 So, look, this is Pandora's box.

00:37:53.000 This is a tool, and how it impacts work is only one question because, like all tools, it can be used for great good and great mischief.

00:38:06.000 It's like a gun, it's like the smartphone, it's like so many other things out there.

00:38:12.000 So, look, we're being asked to get up to speed with regard to a great many different types of tools, and it's making us anxious for good cause.

00:38:22.000 But we've been here before, folks.

00:38:25.000 There is nothing new in the world, it all feels new because we're seeing it for the first time.

00:38:30.000 But we have been there and we have done that.

00:38:33.000 And in the end, there's still going to be a list of jobs that are not going to be replaced, no way, no how.

00:38:39.000 Plumbers, steam fitters, pipe fitters, mechanics, welders.

00:38:44.000 They're here to stay, and we're here to train them.

00:38:46.000 Everyone, check out microworks.org.

00:38:53.000 Okay, Kirk fans, I need you to stop and pay attention to this.

00:38:56.000 If you deal with exhaustion, brain fog, mood swings, or food cravings, if you're constantly getting sick or simply lack the zeal used to have in life, then I have some news for you.

00:39:06.000 While back, I found a liquid supplement called Strong Cell, and it changed my health in a very profound way.

00:39:11.000 I take it every single day.

00:39:14.000 Look, I knew I had to partner with them.

00:39:16.000 I did the research, Google and look up online what happens when you mix NADH with CoQ10 and marine collagen.

00:39:23.000 It's simple.

00:39:24.000 Every area of your body has cells.

00:39:26.000 So if your cells are healthier, then you will also be healthier.

00:39:29.000 You don't have to take my word for it.

00:39:30.000 Listen to one of these testimonials.

00:39:32.000 After taking Strong Cell for six weeks, I found improvement in many areas, less shoulder pain, improved mental clarity, increased natural energy, and so much more.

00:39:39.000 I'm thankful that Charlie Kirk recommended this to his listeners.

00:39:42.000 Rebecca says, I absolutely love Strong Cell.

00:39:45.000 At first, I didn't think it would make much of a difference for my chronic fatigue, depression, anxiety, but I thought I'd give it a chance.

00:39:50.000 I've tried to find depression meds for 10 years, and since you Strong Cell, I'm feeling better than I ever have on depression medication.

00:39:58.000 Thank you, Charlie Kirk, for recommending this product.

00:39:58.000 Customer for life.

00:40:01.000 So there it is.

00:40:02.000 You've heard from me directly and some of the users who have seen their lives changed by Strong Cell.

00:40:07.000 I personally recommend taking it every day for at least 30 days.

00:40:10.000 I take it every day before I go on the air, and it's helped me in more ways than I can even name.

00:40:14.000 Each of our bodies is very different.

00:40:16.000 So I would recommend you give the supplement at least two to three months to see the changes in your body.

00:40:21.000 Go to strongcell.com and learn more for yourself.

00:40:24.000 That's strongcell.com forward slash Charlie.

00:40:27.000 And don't forget to use discount code Charlie at checkout to get your special 20% discount for Kirk listeners, or you can call 888-596-0155 to order over the phone.

00:40:38.000 That is 888-596-0155 or visit strongsell.com forward slash Charlie.

00:40:47.000 Mike, tell us more about this scholarship.

00:40:50.000 You're giving away $1 million.

00:40:52.000 We historically give away about $2 million a year in work ethic scholarships.

00:40:58.000 It's happening right now at microworks.org.

00:41:02.000 These are scholarships specifically for men and women who do not wish to pursue a four-year degree, but who would instead prefer to learn a skill that's in demand, any of the construction trades, but also cosmetology and farriers.

00:41:17.000 And there are so many jobs out there right now that are open that require training, not a typical collegiate credential.

00:41:26.000 That money is set apart for those people.

00:41:28.000 There are some hoops to jump through.

00:41:29.000 These are work ethic scholarships.

00:41:31.000 So you got to make a case for yourself.

00:41:32.000 You know, you're going to have to write a few paragraphs about this and that, maybe make a video.

00:41:37.000 Got to provide references and so forth.

00:41:40.000 Things you need to do in the real world.

00:41:42.000 But we've been doing this.

00:41:44.000 Well, foundation started in 2008 on Labor Day, and the scholarship program has been going on now for about nine or 10 years.

00:41:53.000 So we do it because we do want to help individuals who are possessed of the sorts of qualities that we want to elevate.

00:42:02.000 But we also do it because, full disclosure, I want to use you in a couple of years.

00:42:08.000 I want to be able to talk to people who are making a go of it in the trades because as we discussed before, their testimony is powerful.

00:42:18.000 And fundamentally, what we're trying to do at Microworks is change the attitude that has brought us to this place where so many millions of parents are convinced the best path for the most people is the most expensive path.

00:42:32.000 That's why we have the scholarship program.

00:42:34.000 And we also have a curriculum, a work ethic curriculum, and we're super really excited about this.

00:42:41.000 We finally got it into a big high school in Las Vegas.

00:42:45.000 This is a simple curriculum that is designed for 10th and 11th graders primarily.

00:42:51.000 And I didn't think of it as an antidote to CRT or ESG or DEI, but it kind of is.

00:43:02.000 It gives teachers a chance to work through with their students a basic understanding of what work ethic is and why it's important and how it can help you.

00:43:13.000 But what's really cool about this program, Charlie, is that of the 750 kids in the freshman class over at Western High in Clark County, Las Vegas, the top 50 will be given a full ride scholarship to any trade school in the country.

00:43:29.000 Wow.

00:43:30.000 So we finally figured out a way to elevate work ethic, to talk about it in the classroom, and then to reward the kids who most persuasively embrace it.

00:43:43.000 That's what we're up to.

00:43:45.000 Okay, check out microworks.org.

00:43:49.000 We are seeing a profound need in this country.

00:43:52.000 11 million unfilled jobs in this country.

00:43:55.000 11 million unfilled jobs.

00:43:58.000 And so, Mike, just for those that are in the audience that are curious, kind of just go through the list of some of the technical training areas where people can start that they might not have thought of job openings, opportunities.

00:44:10.000 Obviously, we talk about plumbers, electricians, and welders, but it goes a lot deeper than that from auto repair mechanics.

00:44:15.000 And you have this quote I want to just have you elaborate on.

00:44:19.000 Never follow your passion, but always bring it with you.

00:44:22.000 Mike Rowe.

00:44:24.000 Well, I mean, that's another dirty jobs lesson.

00:44:27.000 You know, I think about you've seen them, the successories, you know, they hang on the walls of God knows how many conference rooms and they say things like, you know, teamwork.

00:44:40.000 And it's a picture of guys rowing a boat together or something or persistence and some guys climbing a mountain or, you know, always stay the course.

00:44:49.000 You know, some guy's sailing a ship.

00:44:51.000 By the way, always staying the course makes good sense if you're sailing in the right direction.

00:44:58.000 So on Dirty Jobs, we took sort of a dim view of these bromides and we offered sort of a dirty alternative to them.

00:45:06.000 One of the big ones was always follow your passion.

00:45:10.000 And I think that so many kids wind up going down the wrong road precisely because they followed their passion.

00:45:17.000 That's not to say you shouldn't have a dream and certainly not to say you shouldn't be passionate about whatever it is you're doing.

00:45:25.000 But the idea that your quest for job satisfaction or happiness in general, whether you're looking for your dream job or your soulmate, the idea that that search would be led by your passion, I think is a mistake.

00:45:43.000 And of the many dirty jobbers I met and worked with over the years, I've just seen this borne out over and over again.

00:45:49.000 I mentioned it at the top of the show, but it's worth circling back on because the happiest people I know today are not working in the field they thought they wanted to be in.

00:46:01.000 In other words, it's not a straight line between what you want to be when you grow up to what you wind up doing when you're grown.

00:46:09.000 And if you use passion as the sole barometer of that, as your true north, you're going to get led all over the place because passion's a fickle thing.

00:46:19.000 But if you follow opportunity and if you conduct an honest inventory of your own skill set and you enhance those skills and you apply it toward the opportunity at hand, it's perfectly within your power to decide to feel good about that and to be passionate about it.

00:46:40.000 So yeah, on Dirty Jobs, we said never follow your passion, but always bring it with you.

00:46:46.000 And not to torture the point unnecessarily, but for further proof, just look at any early episode of American Idol.

00:46:54.000 Watch the auditions.

00:46:56.000 Hundreds, thousands of people following their passion, only to learn for the first time, usually on national TV, that they can't sing.

00:47:05.000 Thus, their dream and their skill set is suddenly revealed to be wildly out of whack with what they hope to do.

00:47:16.000 So, yeah, that's a long way of saying follow the opportunity.

00:47:20.000 Figure out how to love it later.

00:47:21.000 Mike, any closing thoughts or things you want to plug for our audience more about your foundation scholarship opportunities?

00:47:28.000 Please, the floor is yours.

00:47:29.000 Well, opportunities are everywhere.

00:47:34.000 And it worries me today of all the things that our country is wrestling with, I think the idea that opportunity is dead is one of the most dangerous.

00:47:45.000 I just saw a poll the other day in the Wall Street Journal that said 64% of Americans believe the American dream is dead.

00:47:52.000 And I worry about what might happen when that number continues to creep up.

00:47:56.000 A big part of what we're doing at Microworks is showing you where the opportunities are and offering to train people to become proficient in those opportunities.

00:48:08.000 Because look, the evidence is out there and it demands a verdict.

00:48:13.000 Great book.

00:48:14.000 You probably saw it, Charlie, Once Upon a Time.

00:48:16.000 A guy named Josh McDowell wrote it.

00:48:18.000 It's called The Evidence Demands a Verdict.

00:48:21.000 That was a book on Christian apologetics.

00:48:24.000 I'm talking more about the undeniable fact that opportunity is still out there.

00:48:29.000 And there are forces at work for reasons that elude me that are determined to tell kids that the opportunities are dead and that the system is rigged and that there is no hope.

00:48:41.000 I don't believe that.

00:48:42.000 My foundation makes a persuasive case to the contrary.

00:48:45.000 And anybody in your life, including you, who wants to learn a skill that's in demand, we'd love to help pay for the training.

00:48:53.000 You can apply for work ethic scholarship at microworks.

00:48:56.000 Love it.org.

00:48:57.000 Micro, God bless you.

00:48:58.000 That was an excellent hour.

00:48:59.000 Thank you for being generous with your time.

00:49:00.000 And I pray it impacts our audience and someone in the middle that might be looking for a new career, new path.

00:49:05.000 Thanks so much, Micro.

00:49:06.000 Thank you.

00:49:07.000 Thanks, Charlie.

00:49:08.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:49:09.000 Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:49:12.000 Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.

00:49:16.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk. com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - March 06, 2024

The Dirty Truth about Dirty Jobs vs College Degrees with Mike Rowe

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