00:00:00.000Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk Show.
00:00:01.000This holy week, we must remember the divinity of Christ and also the story of the resurrection, the reality of the resurrection, I should say.
00:00:07.000But we have Bodhi Bockam here to talk about fault lines, things that are infiltrating the church and how we fight back against them.
00:00:13.000Email me your thoughts as always freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:00:50.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:01:02.000Brought to you by the Loan Experts I Trust, Andrew and Todd at Sierra Pacific Mortgage at andrewandTodd.com.
00:01:11.000Joining us now is Vodi Bockham from, he does a great job, and he's a preacher, pastor, cultural apologist, and author of Fault Lines, a terrific book that is now turning into a 10-part video curriculum series.
00:01:25.000And you can check it out at salemnow.com, that's salemnow.com.
00:01:31.000Hey, thank you very much for having me.
00:01:33.000So several topics I want to talk about here.
00:01:36.000And let's just start with the main premise of your book, Fault Lines.
00:01:39.000What is it about and why did you write it?
00:01:42.000You know, the subtitle is The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe.
00:01:48.000And I wrote it because I believe that the social justice movement is a fault line of sorts and has been a fault line within evangelicalism.
00:01:58.000It's dividing evangelicalism between people who are buying into this radical neo-Marxist ideology and the people who are opposing this radical neo-Marxist ideology.
00:02:09.000So I wrote the book to sort of define terms and to inform people as to what's really going on and of the importance of responding to it biblically.
00:02:23.000And so, you know, one of the things I was most moved by, you know, reading your book and studying it was how you go about kind of this social contagion, you could call it social contagion, or just kind of this idea of social justice and kind of where it comes from.
00:02:39.000I want to play the trailer here just to give people a little taste.
00:03:46.000What you articulate in that film is similar to a speech I've been giving at churches, the five fake religions that are dominating the West as Christianity becomes less popular.
00:03:55.000And you said it perfectly, the religion of anti-racism.
00:04:16.000And the idea is that there's not racism and then non-racism.
00:04:23.000There's racism and then there's anti-racism.
00:04:25.000And anti-racism is about doing the work that is required to dismantle racism.
00:04:34.000You see, racism is seen as structural.
00:04:38.000Racism is seen as baked into the society.
00:04:43.000It's based on this sort of neo-Marxist picture of the oppressor and the oppressed.
00:04:49.000So, anti-racism in that context is about undoing all of the cultural and structural and societal ills that create disparities between groups.
00:05:02.000And because this work is never really done, the religion of anti-racism has no end, it has no ultimate redemption.
00:05:20.000What is the original sin in the religion of anti-racism?
00:05:23.000Yeah, the original sin in anti-racism is the sin of racism.
00:05:28.000Or more particularly, you could say it's the sin of the invention of whiteness as a means of oppressing all those people who do not fit into the definition of whiteness.
00:05:41.000So, whiteness, white supremacy, racism, this is seen as the original sin.
00:05:48.000And everything that sort of advances that is seen as a perpetuation of that original sin.
00:05:54.000So, you have whiteness and you have white supremacy, you know, white equilibrium and so on and so forth.
00:06:01.000In fact, I devote a whole segment in this series to just defining those terms.
00:06:08.000So, several things I want to explore with you in that topic in particular.
00:06:35.000And so, you have people who are very sincere, right?
00:06:37.000And they start doing the work and they start, you know, trying to dismantle all of these structures.
00:06:43.000And then all of a sudden, something happens and they speak out in a way that is not approved by the anti-racist mob.
00:06:56.000And then, all of a sudden, all of the work that they've done is completely dismissed and they are completely disqualified.
00:07:04.000And they start over again at ground zero because whatever it is, you can do a thousand things right, but the one thing that you do wrong proves that you're not truly an anti-racist and that you were really a racist all along.
00:07:18.000Well, you know, this can only happen a few times before people throw up their hands and say, you know, I'm done with this.
00:07:42.000All it takes is one case where, you know, something happens to a person of color and you see the evidence and the police were 100% in the right.
00:07:53.000And you just acknowledge the fact that, well, in this case, the police seem to be 100% in the right.
00:08:18.000But the idea is that, you know, within the last couple of hundred years, you know, white European descendants created this racial classification in order to distinguish themselves from all other peoples.
00:08:37.000And that this distinction was established in order to put them at the top of the racial pyramid and to accrue benefits to them that would not accrue to other people by virtue of them not qualifying as part of this new race or class.
00:09:00.000And one of the components of the religion of anti-racism is that it becomes tyrannical awfully quickly, is that it almost gives people a moral license that once you are given the merit badge of a victim, you then can become a victimizer.
00:09:16.000Yeah, I tell people all the time, one of the most important books you can read right now is Animal Farm.
00:09:33.000Because, you know, Marxism is right in that oppression is real, but oppression comes from sin, not from being part of a particular group.
00:09:42.000Yeah, and it does, that's exactly right.
00:09:45.000And the truth of Christianity is against sectarianism.
00:09:51.000It's against tribal guilt and tribal indictment and tribal stereotyping.
00:09:56.000It's one of the truths of Christianity.
00:09:59.000And it's a great moral advancement that you apply that to your system of laws, that we're not going to judge you based on the group you come from.
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00:10:39.000You're giving her access to a two-year mentorship program and the chance to receive maternity clothes, baby clothes, diapers, parenting classes, but perhaps most importantly, someone to walk alongside her and be a friend during this most crucial time of her life.
00:10:53.000You see, $140 gives five mothers a free ultrasound and saves babies.
00:11:50.000Yeah, well, I don't think it's necessarily taking over American Christianity.
00:11:55.000I think it had a big foothold over the last couple of years, and that's because it is very sinister and sneaky.
00:12:04.000You know, you use phrases like diversity and equity and inclusion and social justice and racial justice and anti-racism.
00:12:15.000These all sound like very good things, right?
00:12:17.000And they sound like things that the church has always been about.
00:12:22.000You know, that you can go to the scriptures and you see the right pictures of these things.
00:12:30.000But this movement, this critical Marxist, you know, critical just critical theory movement, you know, critical social justice movement, it's using these words and these phrases and pouring meaning into them that is antithetical to what we see in scripture.
00:12:47.000And I think that's why people are waking up to this now.
00:12:51.000Now, there are some people who are dying the wool, right?
00:12:54.000And we've seen liberation theology and other movements that are Marxist movements, you know, within certain Christian groups and Christian sects.
00:13:03.000But by and large, Christians reject these ideas.
00:13:06.000And right now, I think people are, there's a sort of backlash.
00:13:10.000But at the same time, people are trying to figure out, you know, how do we do the right things that these words are supposed to point to without embracing this ideology that's antithetical?
00:13:22.000So, Savodi, some people say, well, it's a helpful framework or it's an analytical tool.
00:13:27.000I mean, I will take your word for it because you know the health of American Christianity better than I do, because I certainly look at things when I see political triggers and I probably might be overgeneralizing.
00:13:39.000But let me just ask you one challenging question on that.
00:13:42.000Isn't it true that a fair amount of seminaries are embracing some of this critical thinking or at least cousins of it or, you know, let's just say a poor man's version of it?
00:14:00.000In some instances, what has happened is, you know, seminaries over the last 20, 30 years have acknowledged the fact that there has been less representation of minorities than they wanted or than they were interested in.
00:14:15.000I remember being courted when I was a seminary student and basically, you know, people saying, hey, there's just not a lot of black professors in our seminaries and people trying to sort of walk me through this academic process and say, you know, it'd be great if you go ahead and finish do your doctorate and maybe teach this, that, and the other.
00:14:34.000And so there have been a number of black professors and other minority professors who have ascended the ranks in recent years in these seminaries.
00:14:44.000Well, now all of a sudden, these same guys begin to espouse, you know, critical theory and critical race theory.
00:14:53.000And these seminaries are sort of in a catch-22.
00:14:58.000Because on the one hand, you know, they wanted to have these guys there and they're proud of the fact that they have this representation.
00:15:04.000On the other hand, these guys are teaching something that is anathema.
00:15:09.000And if you get rid of them, immediately the response is, oh, well, you weren't as committed to diversity as you said you were.
00:15:17.000So it was a very difficult position for people to be put in.
00:15:44.000That there's worse things that you could be called than racist.
00:15:49.000And our goal is to hear the Lord say, well done, good and faithful servant.
00:15:54.000And there's nothing that you can call me this side of heaven that is worth me not hearing that when I get there.
00:16:02.000I hope that gets clipped and repeated and written down, everybody, because what you just said, Vodi, is against the secular humanist religion of anti-racism.
00:16:11.000For them, the biggest fear is the charge or the accusation of racism.
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00:19:39.000There's been a pivot, you know, and I think the pivot to Christian nationalism, for example, is one evidence that these ideas are losing steam.
00:19:48.000It's as though people were being called out for their adherence to critical theory, critical race theory, so on and so forth.
00:19:57.000And all of a sudden they just went, well, look over there.
00:20:53.000So that undermines the idea that we have in scripture that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
00:21:00.000It undermines the idea that there is one mankind that comes from one man, Adam.
00:21:06.000And now all of a sudden, you know, we're breaking people up into these sort of racial essential groups.
00:21:13.000It takes away the idea that our redemption is found in Christ and in his finished work.
00:21:19.000Instead, it's a religion of works where we have to find redemption through, you know, our works.
00:21:25.000It looks forward to this utopia, not to the new heavens and the new earth.
00:21:31.000I mean, at every point, it is a counterfeit.
00:21:34.000And you'll actually never get there, obviously.
00:21:37.000And so let's talk a little bit about this trans stuff.
00:21:41.000I think your moral clarity on this topic is terrific.
00:21:44.000But let me try to connect it, if it's possible to connect, which I find to be interesting.
00:21:49.000And maybe you can help make sense of it because I find this to be an irreconcilable difference, yet they seem to be activist groups that work in harmony, where one of the main arguments of the CRT or the BLM or the kind of racial arsonist group or the religion of anti-racism is that you have an identity that is tied to your melanin content.
00:22:09.000Okay, but it's not changeable and it's fixed.
00:22:13.000But then you have the trans movement that works in harmony with the other activists, but they make a completely different argument that your identity actually can be changed.
00:22:42.000Antonio Gramsci and then through him, the Frankfurt School, gives us this new rendition, this new sort of presentation of Marxism that's cultural in nature.
00:22:55.000The idea is that there's a hegemonic power and that the oppressor uses this hegemonic power, this ideology in order to oppress people, not just economics.
00:23:06.000And in our culture, the oppressor would be white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, able-bodied, native-born, on down to Christian, right?
00:23:19.000And this idea that cisgender people, that heterosexual people, that that heteronormativity is part of the hegemonic power that is used to oppress is what unites the LGBTQIA2S plus movement with the social justice movement and the racial justice movement.
00:23:39.000And we saw this, for example, in BLM's original website.
00:23:44.000And that, you know, we got to remember that BLM is started by a group of black lesbians, right?
00:23:50.000And they're very clear about the fact that they're black lesbians and they're black lesbian Marxists.
00:24:42.000And so, Vaudi, we're seeing this now kind of bubble up to the surface because good people, I don't think, have fought enough against this evil of the trans social contagion that now go to our children.
00:24:54.000So there has been a 10 times increase in young people that say they are trans, 10 times increase.
00:25:03.000And so you and I would say that this is a social contagion from the pit of hell.
00:25:08.000But the world, if you will, refuses to answer the question as, okay, why is there a 10 times increase?
00:25:16.000They'll say, oh, it's because people are more comfortable than ever before.
00:25:32.000And I think one of the issues is that if we acknowledge the fact that this is a social contagion, people are afraid that eventually you'll get to the point where we start acknowledging the fact that this is not normative.
00:25:52.000And, you know, you can't, on the one hand, say this is completely normal.
00:25:58.000You know, a man can't actually become a woman.
00:26:02.000And that on the other hand, this is a social contagion and we need to do something about it.
00:26:07.000They're really afraid that if you acknowledge that social contagion piece, that eventually we'll get to the heart of the issue and they'll lose ground.
00:26:17.000How do we best fight it, especially in the church?
00:26:20.000I'm not seeing, most churches are definitely not widely embracing it, but I'm certainly seeing a weakness set in.
00:26:32.000And, you know, I had one pastor who messaged me and they said, Charlie, we're all made in the image of God and we must love the trans person and that if they want to be something else, who am I to tell them to no longer be that?
00:27:14.000But by the time, you know, we find out that he was lying and that it was completely fraudulent, you'd had, what, 20 years or so of people using this as the gold standard to prove that gender is constructed.
00:27:31.000So if you don't know about money's fraudulent work, and if you don't acknowledge it for what it is, then you don't realize that everything that we're doing now is a result of that fraudulent work, just like Kinsey's fraudulent work has us believing that people are sexualized from the time that they're children.
00:27:53.000And so I think one of the things that we need to do is we need to expose these historical realities.
00:28:00.000We need to inform people that these things have origins and that these origins are satanic, that these origins are abusive, and that children's lives are at stake.
00:28:14.000So few people mention money and Kinsey, but it's important to know that in the 1900s, these two evil actors experimented with children.
00:28:21.000Kinsey allowed six-month-olds to be raped and then documented the response of it.
00:28:29.000Kinsey is celebrated at several universities, including Indiana University at Bloomington.
00:28:34.000They have a whole statue dedicated to him.
00:28:36.000They have the Kinsey Center for Sexual Ethics at Indiana University.
00:28:40.000John Money, the story that you were talking about, is very important.
00:28:45.000There were two twins, and essentially, I don't remember all the circumstances, but he said, what would happen if we changed the gender of one of the twins?
00:28:57.000And then he said, we'll use this as a test case, right?
00:29:00.000And it ended in complete just horror, right?
00:29:06.000I mean, suicide, mental depression, so much of it.
00:29:10.000And so then, Vodi, the American church, this shouldn't be a real controversial issue at all, right?
00:29:19.000This shouldn't be one that we have to overthink.
00:29:21.000In fact, I don't think we have the tape, but we have similar tapes, but there was a tape recently on MSNBC of someone who called themselves a minister next to someone who was trans.
00:30:51.000Just a little bit more about what you go into and what people can learn, what they will learn by going through this course.
00:30:58.000The idea here is that we take a look at the main tenets of the book.
00:31:03.000We look at them from, you know, from 35,000 feet, but we also get some real concrete examples of these sort of things happening.
00:31:10.000And this is designed to have the discussion that the left says they want, but really don't.
00:31:18.000This is a group study for people to be able to get into this, to define their terms and really talk about these issues and learn about these issues from a foundational, fundamental, and biblical perspective.
00:31:33.000So what other false religions do you think that Christians need to be aware of, Vaudi?
00:31:38.000I mean, the social justice one is also really big.
00:31:41.000We didn't talk about that one as much.
00:31:46.000The social justice one, I think, is the one that Christians and, well, Christians everywhere are most susceptible to, because we are about justice, right?
00:31:56.000And if you don't know that social justice is redistributive justice, then you can have a tendency to sort of fall prey to that.
00:32:06.000And I think that's what happened for a lot of people is that they fell prey to that.
00:32:13.000You know, racial justice being sort of a subset of that, if you will.
00:32:19.000And, you know, just buying the narrative that all disparities are the result of racism and injustice.
00:32:28.000Again, these are things that people have fallen prey to, but, you know, by God's grace, can and will, and I think are sort of moving away from.
00:32:39.000Again, there are some people who've been lost to this stuff.
00:32:41.000There's some people who are just gone and they've apostatized.
00:32:45.000But, you know, for the most part, people are waking up to this and it doesn't have enough steam.
00:33:00.000The Supreme Court rejects West Virginia's request to say that men are not allowed in female sports.
00:33:06.000We have a lot of work to do because the Supreme Court, I mean, I'm sure it's some technical legal thing, but it shouldn't be a question at all in any way, shape, or form.
00:33:14.000And so let me close here at three minutes remaining, Vodi.
00:33:16.000For people that don't know the Lord, this is Easter.
00:34:13.000And because he's the God-man, because he's fully God and fully man, on the one hand, he could, you know, taste the wrath of God and survive.
00:34:21.000But on the other hand, he could have our sin imputed to him as our representative and die and pay the price that we owed.
00:34:30.000So that in him, we have God being both just and the justifier of the one who places faith in Jesus.
00:34:38.000And the resurrection screams to us that that payment was satisfactory.
00:34:45.000Death is the last enemy, and we all face that last enemy.
00:34:49.000Last time I checked, the death rate was one per person.
00:34:52.000And the only sure answer that we have is the one who has overcome death and hell and the grave and who promises us that if we're found in him, we will overcome it as well.
00:35:08.000The entire Christian faith hinges on the resurrection, and it happened.
00:35:12.000By ancient and historical standards, it is by far the most documented event, not only by biblical, but also extra-biblical sources as well.
00:35:22.000And I say this, the people that do not believe the resurrection, the burden of proof is on you to tell me then what happened to that body.
00:35:30.000Because if you say it's stolen, that doesn't make a lot of sense.
00:35:37.000Tell me how a group of fishermen and a ragtag army of cowards were able to get past two Roman guards, roll the stone, and then move the body exactly.