The Charlie Kirk Show - The Legacy of Lindsey Graham + Who Is Alexander Dugin?

00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.

00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.

00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.

00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.

00:00:19.000 But if the most important thing is doing good, you will end up purposeful.

00:00:24.000 College is a scam, everybody.

00:00:26.000 You've got to stop sending your kids to college.

00:00:27.000 You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.

00:00:31.000 Go start a Turning Point USA college chapter.

00:00:33.000 Go start a Turning Point USA High School chapter.

00:00:35.000 Go find out how your church can get involved.

00:00:37.000 Sign up and become an activist.

00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.

00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life, and I encourage you to do the same.

00:00:45.000 Here I am.

00:00:46.000 Lord, use me.

00:00:48.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:49.000 Here we go.

00:00:56.000 Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.

00:01:06.000 Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble Gold Investments at NobleGoldInvestments.com.

00:01:13.000 That is NobleGoldInvestments.com.

00:01:17.000 All right.

00:01:17.000 Welcome to the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:01:19.000 I'm Andrew Colvett.

00:01:20.000 I'm in our nation's lovely capital.

00:01:23.000 And Blake is holding it down in the Y Refi studios in Phoenix, Arizona.

00:01:28.000 How are we doing, Blake?

00:01:29.000 The mic flag is mine.

00:01:30.000 The mic flag is mine once again.

00:01:32.000 You know, eventually Daisy's going to figure this out, and we're all going to be able to share multiple mics. flags.

00:01:38.000 Until then, Blake's holding it down in the YRefi studios.

00:01:42.000 We had an amazing weekend in D.C. and what a blessing it was to Blake because obviously the week was super challenging.

00:01:51.000 All you and I did was basically watch the preliminary hearing.

00:01:54.000 We posted about on social.

00:01:56.000 We covered it during this show or we watched it live on this show and then we covered it at night.

00:02:01.000 So thank you so much to all of you who tuned into that.

00:02:04.000 Those episodes did monster numbers so I know a lot of you were interested in hearing about it and bringing in Graham Allen and Brandon Tatum and Jack Posobic, and all those who were in the courtroom, along with all the experts that we brought in to help break it all down.

00:02:19.000 So, in all, it was a really tough week.

00:02:22.000 And, you know, Erica had, you know, we had planned CLS Chapter Leadership Summit in DC a long, long time ago.

00:02:30.000 And then the judge postponed the preliminary hearing.

00:02:33.000 It was originally supposed to be in April, then it was in May, and then it got moved to this front part of July.

00:02:38.000 So, it just fell right in the middle of it.

00:02:40.000 And actually, I said this to some people, Blake, it ended up being, I feel like, providential timing, because it gave us an opportunity and gave Erica an opportunity to go from what was a really challenging, emotional week, watching and reliving those details from that terrible day, to then going to be around thousands of students in Washington DC, getting to experience firsthand what Turning Point is building all across the country, chapter by chapter, and then getting to meet them.

00:03:06.000 And then Blake and I had the opportunity to sit down for multiple round tables with high school students, with college students all across the country, to hear directly from them, and Blake, and I'm sure, will get a chance to tell you more about that, but we'll be releasing that footage very soon.

00:03:21.000 In the meantime, I want to play some of these clips because they're excellent from Erica, who just gave such an amazing, amazing speech at CLS.

00:03:31.000 And by the way, just made us so proud.

00:03:34.000 I'm sure she made Charlie so proud. 0.58

00:03:36.000 Sop five.

00:03:38.000 You do the hard thing.

00:03:41.000 You do the right thing.

00:03:42.000 And that's what my husband did every single day.

00:03:51.000 She's just really just hitting.

00:03:54.000 Home run after home run in this thing.

00:03:55.000 Let's go ahead, Sot 6.

00:03:57.000 My husband built this movement. 0.98

00:04:02.000 He built this machine.

00:04:05.000 And I watched him do it.

00:04:08.000 And I stood by his side through every sleepless night, through every moment of concern, through every phone call, through every high, through every low of the things he could control and the things he couldn't.

00:04:23.000 I was there.

00:04:24.000 And I have seen my husband build this.

00:04:28.000 And he has entrusted it to all of us.

00:04:32.000 Blake, any thoughts as we go through these?

00:04:35.000 No, I just think it really speaks to everything we're aiming to do here.

00:04:40.000 Last week, we considered it incredibly important, of course, to cover the hearing, make sure everyone's following that.

00:04:47.000 But at the same time, the work does go on, and Charlie's work is not being.

00:04:54.000 We're not pursuing Charlie's work in a courtroom in Utah.

00:04:56.000 We're pursuing it across the country with the young people, the high schoolers, the college kids, the young adults.

00:05:02.000 Who are trying to transform this country, revitalize this country, change the course of this country, and bring about a faith revival.

00:05:10.000 And you do that through the work of Turning Point USA.

00:05:13.000 And one of the key ways we do that is through our chapters and through our events.

00:05:17.000 And you put those things together.

00:05:19.000 And the Chapter Leadership Summit, it was just tremendous.

00:05:22.000 I had a tremendous time there, not just in those panels that you and I were doing, but when we weren't doing those, I tried to just wander around the floor and talk to the different people.

00:05:33.000 I heard so many incredible testimonies.

00:05:35.000 I talked to students who said, I got baptized after what happened to Charlie.

00:05:40.000 I completely transformed my life.

00:05:42.000 I met person after person with testimony like that.

00:05:45.000 And I think it speaks immensely to Erica that she spent that whole exhausting week in Utah and immediately turned around, flew out to run and speak at this event because that's what needs to get done.

00:05:59.000 That's how the work is going to be continued in the years and we hope decades to come.

00:06:03.000 Blake, one of the things I was struck by was there was a reporter there that I spoke to briefly, and his line to me was pretty profound.

00:06:12.000 He said, I just love interacting with these students.

00:06:15.000 They are so untouched by cynicism.

00:06:18.000 They're so enthusiastic.

00:06:19.000 And I'm telling you, everybody in this audience that maybe is looking at the chaos on social media or what's going on in Iran, and we're going to get into Lindsey Graham, maybe even some of the conspiracies around that story, which are.

00:06:34.000 were inevitable, let's be honest.

00:06:36.000 But if you get distracted or you get discouraged, if you spend some time around some Turning Point students, it will give you hope like you wouldn't believe.

00:06:46.000 It is an absolute white pill how dedicated they are.

00:06:51.000 The way they speak about their faith, the way they speak about what Charlie meant to them, what Turning Point means to them, it is an absolute white pill.

00:06:58.000 And I can't wait to get those panels out, Blake, because it was really fascinating. 0.67

00:07:04.000 You get inside the mind of a Gen Zer And by the way, some of these high school students that we talked to in that one panel, Blake, they're born in 2008, 2009.

00:07:12.000 It was incredible.

00:07:13.000 And they're at the tail end of Gen Z.

00:07:14.000 They were, yeah, they're born in 2008.

00:07:17.000 So they basically have no memory even of Barack Obama winning an election.

00:07:22.000 And you mentioned they're so upbeat, and that's so tremendous to me because I feel that nostalgia is such a big part of MAGA.

00:07:29.000 It's people who think, wow, America was winning so hard in the 80s, in the 90s, post 9 11, it went downhill.

00:07:36.000 These are kids who never had the blessing to live through it, where it just felt like America was firing on all cylinders.

00:07:43.000 And for them to still be so upbeat, to believe so powerfully in what this country can do and how we can revitalize that, that's tremendous.

00:07:52.000 It's such a testament to Charlie.

00:07:54.000 I want to make sure we play another one of these Erica clips because I think it really speaks to the dynamic we were going for.

00:08:00.000 Let's play clip eight.

00:08:01.000 This past week, I have seen something I'm still trying to unpack and put into words.

00:08:14.000 And someone asked me, Do you still want to go to the chapter leadership summit?

00:08:22.000 And I sat there and I thought, If you.

00:08:26.000 Don't fight for what's right.

00:08:30.000 I would much rather our country look like this room than the inside of that courtroom.

00:08:39.000 And that got a huge cheer afterwards, which was cut off there.

00:08:42.000 But it really is that we want this country to be all those kids in that room who believe in faith, who believe in America, who believe that whatever challenges there are, they can be overcome.

00:08:56.000 And I just loved this event.

00:08:58.000 You see so much youthful energy.

00:09:00.000 You see so much optimism.

00:09:05.000 I found myself awed by the people who come out who want to pursue Charlie's legacy.

00:09:11.000 They are better people than I am, I can say.

00:09:14.000 And for those who are just wondering, no, there's no adults at this event.

00:09:18.000 It's just thousands of students.

00:09:20.000 There's no nothing.

00:09:21.000 It's just students doing training, getting together, meeting each other, getting equipped to go back out and take their chapters to the next level.

00:09:30.000 Chapter Leadership Summit in Turning Point History.

00:09:32.000 So lots to be grateful for today.

00:09:34.000 All right, so we have some polling that we did there, just getting their top issues in rank order.

00:09:40.000 So it's kind of a, the graph is tricky.

00:09:44.000 So the top is the most important, the bottom is the least important, right?

00:09:48.000 So I guess relative confidence.

00:09:51.000 So free speech was actually young people's at CLS biggest concern, which I think was interesting simply because they're, I think, being inundated with information and news stories like the UK is banning social media, they're being told what they can and can't look at.

00:10:09.000 One of the things that emerged from our conversations, we asked a bunch of high school kids and college kids, what do you think about banning social media for young people?

00:10:18.000 And I think they were all basically against it, right?

00:10:22.000 But they wanted to pursue other ways of how do you use it responsibly?

00:10:26.000 How do we be taught to look at source information and things like that?

00:10:30.000 But they acknowledged that there's a lot of slop and a lot of disinformation on social media, but they certainly don't want to be limited in their ability to use it.

00:10:37.000 Am I addressing that correctly?

00:10:40.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:10:41.000 And yeah, just to emphasize to people so, smaller number, it was all, they were asked to rank all of these issues in order, and it's sort of their average number.

00:10:48.000 So, free speech on average was around fourth, but rankings were all over the place.

00:10:53.000 So, that was enough for first place.

00:10:56.000 I think it's reassuring. 0.93

00:10:57.000 Number two here is right to life and abortion.

00:11:01.000 Number two issue, I think that speaks to the type of people who are.

00:11:06.000 Getting who it speaks to the type of people who really get invested in politics.

00:11:10.000 That young people still care a lot about that issue, they still want to pursue it.

00:11:14.000 And I know Charlie cared a lot about that.

00:11:16.000 You care a lot, I care a lot.

00:11:17.000 So I'm very glad to see that.

00:11:20.000 The third issue political violence obviously, that's all very personal to us.

00:11:24.000 And I think that's exactly what all of them were thinking about when they decided where to place that.

00:11:30.000 I would say one that continues to surprise me AI never ranks very high on this.

00:11:35.000 I think.

00:11:36.000 When we asked people at Amfest last year, it may literally have been dead last in terms of issues people were thinking about.

00:11:42.000 And here it's near dead last, ahead of only the environment and legacy media.

00:11:49.000 I'm not even sure what that means.

00:11:51.000 And not surprisingly, it was basically in dead last there.

00:11:54.000 So I find all of those numbers.

00:11:57.000 Confidence in legacy media.

00:11:58.000 Yeah, confidence in legacy media.

00:12:01.000 I guess maybe trying to rebuild confidence.

00:12:03.000 That might be what it means.

00:12:04.000 But cost of living, only about in the middle.

00:12:08.000 I wouldn't have been surprised if that was higher.

00:12:10.000 So that's what stands out to me in this one.

00:12:15.000 That's something that came up a lot in our conversations, actually, is how much these young kids were.

00:12:20.000 focused on the economy, affordability, housing.

00:12:23.000 In conversation, they certainly seem to be fixated on it.

00:12:27.000 And it really is how much is that tank of gas going to cost me to fill up my car?

00:12:33.000 How much did that burrito I bought at lunch cost me?

00:12:36.000 That's the way that these kids are processing economics and affordability because they're not necessarily investing in equities yet.

00:12:45.000 They're not ready to buy a home.

00:12:46.000 They're not thinking about this.

00:12:47.000 And by the way, all of the kids that we spoke to, every single last one of them are going to be voters.

00:12:52.000 in 2028.

00:12:54.000 Most of them will be voters in 2026 for the midterm.

00:12:58.000 So when we talk about these issues, I think it's really helpful for the larger audience to understand and bring it home for them of, you know, it's literally, that's what they mentioned, a burrito should not cost 20 bucks.

00:13:09.000 And they're right.

00:13:10.000 A burrito shouldn't cost 20 bucks.

00:13:12.000 But then you educate them on, you know, what it means to print money and to inflate the value of equities.

00:13:19.000 Economic incumbents have the advantage when inflation strikes.

00:13:22.000 So when you educate them on these things, they sort of Pick it up and they go, Yeah, you're right.

00:13:27.000 You're right.

00:13:27.000 Okay, that makes sense.

00:13:28.000 We, you know, 29%, 28% inflation over four years with Joe Biden, money printing out the wazoo during COVID.

00:13:34.000 All of these things make sense to them once you explain it to them, but sometimes you have to explain the basics before you get to right thinking and proper thinking.

00:13:44.000 Danny points out something pretty smart, which is cost of living was only in the middle, but he points out if they're in high school, even if they're in college, a lot of them still live at home.

00:13:54.000 They might get subsidized by their parents.

00:13:56.000 It's not quite real yet.

00:13:57.000 It's when you get thrown into The pool on the deep end of adulthood that it really starts to stand out to you.

00:14:04.000 And then if we were doing this event for people who were 27, this might be all the way up at the top as a result.

00:14:11.000 I think another thing worth flagging foreign affairs, foreign policy in general, it's in the bottom third of the list, on average, ranked almost 10th place.

00:14:21.000 And national security is a bit higher, but you can link that to immigration, which it's right alongside.

00:14:27.000 I think something we saw repeatedly was people do want a government that's very focused.

00:14:32.000 On America, on American issues, on domestic stuff.

00:14:36.000 A lot of them, when we had those panels, they said they were willing to trust President Trump's decision making on Iran, on foreign policy questions, but their ideal was still a government that is very clearly domestically focused in its orientation.

00:14:52.000 And I think that this list bears that out.

00:14:54.000 One of the things that's interesting is a lot of these kids are pretty radical on immigration, but to see it in the aggregate, where it's the fact that it's not a top three issue, I think speaks to the fact that.

00:15:06.000 It is one of those issues when you have success with it.

00:15:09.000 We closed down the border and the illegal crossings.

00:15:12.000 That unfortunately, people forget about it.

00:15:15.000 It's just one of those things where if you fix a problem, it's almost hard to get credit for it because it's not in the headlines anymore.

00:15:22.000 So it falls off people's top list.

00:15:24.000 Now, there is much more interest in when you start talking about H 1Bs, when you start talking about job prospects, when you start talking about legal immigration, the kids' ears perk up, and there is a lot of interest in that.

00:15:36.000 But I just, one observation that it's not higher simply because.

00:15:41.000 It's not a dramatic crisis.

00:15:43.000 You're not seeing images of caravans crossing over the southern border anymore like we were seeing under Biden.

00:15:49.000 And so it's falling down the priority list.

00:15:50.000 And I just hope that we can translate that electorally and make sure that President Trump gets the proper credit for it and the conservatives do.

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00:17:00.000 All right, guys.

00:17:01.000 We've got Graham Allen.

00:17:02.000 He's a great guy, great patriot.

00:17:05.000 He's been a great friend.

00:17:06.000 And he was in the courtroom all last week.

00:17:08.000 So I want to get to that eventually.

00:17:09.000 But first, Graham, you are living in South Carolina.

00:17:12.000 You run for office in South Carolina.

00:17:15.000 And obviously, we lost Lindsey Graham.

00:17:17.000 Be honest, Graham.

00:17:18.000 Were you named after Lindsey Graham?

00:17:20.000 Not to my knowledge.

00:17:22.000 No, no.

00:17:23.000 I think.

00:17:24.000 You predate his political rise, maybe, Graham.

00:17:27.000 Yeah.

00:17:28.000 So tell us what he's hearing on the ground.

00:17:30.000 Yeah.

00:17:30.000 What are you hearing on the ground in South Carolina?

00:17:33.000 Well, the president just made a post that he recommended to Governor McMasters that Lindsey Graham's sister be the interim to serve out the end of their term.

00:17:45.000 Look, it's pretty simple.

00:17:47.000 This is going to be a three week race.

00:17:50.000 The filing period is July 21st through the 28th, and then the special election or special primary election will be August 11th.

00:17:58.000 I mean, that's a three week race.

00:18:00.000 I mean, this is going to be, honestly, it's whoever gets the president's endorsement who it's going to be.

00:18:07.000 I've heard names float around Pam Avet, Ralph Norman, Nancy Mace.

00:18:12.000 I've even heard former congressmen, former governors, things like that.

00:18:18.000 Here's what I'll say, and this is a Grand Island take, and this is one reason why me and the SCGOP don't always see eye to eye.

00:18:26.000 I don't think that people that just got skull dragged in a statewide race.

00:18:31.000 Should be given a consolation prize of a Senate seat.

00:18:35.000 Senate seats do not come open often in South Carolina.

00:18:40.000 I think that this is an opportunity for the president to take a moment, Susie Walsh, James Blair, all of them to take a moment.

00:18:47.000 The president gets to make a decision on who to put his endorsement behind without the concern of potentially ticking off the SCGOP because he's not putting together a presidential campaign.

00:19:02.000 This is the first time in a long time.

00:19:04.000 That the president has a chance to make a selection based off who he thinks the best fighter will be.

00:19:13.000 As we know, we have a whole new era of Democrat socialists that are making it through their primaries right now.

00:19:20.000 We've got a whole new fight going on the Hill in the House and in the Senate.

00:19:26.000 I think that this is an opportunity to take just a minute and, hey, I think it needs to be somebody younger. 0.54

00:19:32.000 I don't think we need to put a 70 year old person in the Senate seat.

00:19:36.000 I think we need somebody.

00:19:38.000 That there's got to be.

00:19:39.000 There's got to be somebody in the state of South Carolina that can be a fighter for the president and the America First agenda.

00:19:46.000 And there's got to be somebody that can be agile and adapt to the battles that are coming very soon to D.C. at the House floor and in the House and the Senate.

00:19:58.000 That's my personal opinion.

00:19:59.000 Yeah, no, I think that's right.

00:20:02.000 I'm not opposed.

00:20:03.000 I think Blake and I were talking before the show to his sister.

00:20:06.000 You know, for those who aren't aware, his sister was often featured in campaign ads.

00:20:12.000 He adopted.

00:20:14.000 I guess they grew up in the back of a bar, like a house on the backside of a bar or something like that in central South Carolina.

00:20:21.000 And both their parents died pretty young.

00:20:24.000 And so Lindsey Graham adopted his then 13 year old sister.

00:20:29.000 And they were devoted to each other.

00:20:31.000 And it was actually kind of a touching story. 0.99

00:20:33.000 I had a ton of political disagreements with Lindsey Graham.

00:20:38.000 As a matter of fact, as soon as I got the news, I was like, man, I definitely tweeted some harsh things about Lindsey Graham in the last couple of months.

00:20:46.000 And.

00:20:48.000 But whatever my disagreements were with the guy, it sounds like from people's recounting of their interactions, their friendships with him, that he was amicable, that he was willing to let political disagreements not impact his friendship towards people.

00:21:02.000 By the way, I heard a crazy stat.

00:21:05.000 The guy died with apparently a $1.2 million net worth, right?

00:21:09.000 So this was not a guy that was enriching himself off of the war machine that he celebrated so much, right?

00:21:17.000 For all his faults, you know, we want to say nice things about the dead, and I don't gloat or rejoice in his passing.

00:21:26.000 There are several funny stories.

00:21:27.000 Al Franken, who was a colleague of his in the Senate, has repeatedly told people Lindsey Graham is the funniest person he knew in the Senate.

00:21:36.000 Apparently, at one point, he met him in a bathroom or something and told him, Hey, if I were a Republican, I'd vote for you in the presidential election.

00:21:44.000 And he immediately replies, That's my problem.

00:21:48.000 And he had a few fun stories like that.

00:21:51.000 He was.

00:21:52.000 You can see how he was such a formidable figure for a long time, despite a lot of critics, including Charlie here.

00:21:59.000 We called him Lady Graham for a reason.

00:22:02.000 He often aggravated us, but he was funny.

00:22:05.000 He was genial.

00:22:06.000 He was a hard worker, and he didn't give up.

00:22:11.000 And we're grateful for the times where that was to the benefit of this country.

00:22:16.000 We're all remembering how he fought very hard on the Brett Kavanaugh case when it was looking bad.

00:22:22.000 You don't remember that.

00:22:23.000 It looked like that nomination might fail.

00:22:26.000 And he stepped up and he absolutely destroyed those incredibly bogus allegations against Kavanaugh, fought hard for him, and had an amazing photo of him adjusting his tie while some liberal shrieked in the background.

00:22:43.000 Yeah.

00:22:44.000 So let's get into just his cause of death, though.

00:22:47.000 All right.

00:22:48.000 President Trump admitted that he was even confused about it because he had just been in Ukraine the day before visiting.

00:22:55.000 A drone factory.

00:22:56.000 He was scheduled to do Meet the Press on Sunday.

00:22:58.000 This is President Trump reflecting on that.

00:23:00.000 SOP 4.

00:23:01.000 President Trump, thank you for joining us and my condolences to you.

00:23:05.000 Well, thank you.

00:23:06.000 He's a tough one to lose.

00:23:09.000 He was great.

00:23:09.000 He was unique in every way, actually.

00:23:12.000 What makes it even stranger is that I got a call last night sometime in the early evening, maybe in the sevens, and he called and he said, We're all set for the Save America Act.

00:23:25.000 He was pushing the Save America Act like crazy.

00:23:27.000 He got back.

00:23:28.000 Said he just landed from Ukraine, but he wanted to pass the Save America Act.

00:23:33.000 And I said, Well, we're going to get it done, Lindsay.

00:23:36.000 We're going to get it done.

00:23:37.000 I'll see you soon.

00:23:37.000 We thought maybe we might even meet today.

00:23:40.000 And then that was it.

00:23:42.000 So Axios is reporting a person who spoke with Graham shortly afterwards said that the senator complained that he was feeling unwell when the person urged him to seek medical attention immediately.

00:23:53.000 Graham said he would do it Sunday morning after his scheduled appearance on Meet the Press.

00:23:57.000 Graham then joked, I can't die now.

00:23:59.000 I still need to do the Russian sanctions, get Iran sorted out, and do Israeli-Saudi normalization.

00:24:04.000 He passed away several hours later.

00:24:07.000 The IRGC then posted a video.

00:24:10.000 One of their Lego animation videos depicting Lindsey Graham's sudden death, sort of claiming credit for it.

00:24:19.000 I tend to be persuaded that this is not conspiratorial in nature.

00:24:22.000 He was 71.

00:24:23.000 It looks like he died of hardening of the arteries.

00:24:26.000 And the most common cause of death, people don't know this, especially when you're over a certain age, when doing long international flights, is some sort of cardiac death, whether it's a heart attack or, in this case, an aortic fissure or whatever.

00:24:42.000 Blake, I see you wanting to chime in.

00:24:44.000 Well, it's just, yeah, if you look at his family history, his father died of, I believe, the exact same thing at the age of 69.

00:24:52.000 You have the story here where if he'd gone to the hospital right away, they probably would have caught that this was happening, rushed him into surgery.

00:25:00.000 He might have survived, but he downplayed it, thought it's probably no big deal.

00:25:03.000 And yeah, aortic dissection.

00:25:05.000 Aorta is the gigantic blood vessel running directly into your heart.

00:25:09.000 Dissection coming apart.

00:25:11.000 If that happens, you are going to die.

00:25:14.000 Very quickly.

00:25:15.000 And I understand it's tempting because a lot of people didn't like Senator Graham.

00:25:20.000 A lot of people are grossly just celebrating his death.

00:25:24.000 But in the end, it is a common thing for men in their 70s to die abruptly of heart attacks.

00:25:32.000 And I think that's likely the case here.

00:25:34.000 Graham, I want while we have you here, there was you, you were in the courtroom.

00:25:41.000 And I just, I know this is a brief and a kind of a pivot, but.

00:25:45.000 You saw the enhanced video, and much was made over the weekend on social media about this enhanced video of Tyler Robinson.

00:25:51.000 I wanted to give you a chance before we lose you.

00:25:53.000 I know you've got a busy day.

00:25:54.000 Just to chime in on that, what was it?

00:25:56.000 It feels like it's a whole exercise in splitting hairs, but I wanted to give you a chance just to sort of set the record straight.

00:26:02.000 What was in that video?

00:26:03.000 What do you see and what can you not see?

00:26:05.000 One minute.

00:26:06.000 Yeah, well, again, to your point, it's semantics.

00:26:09.000 There's a group of people that no matter what the evidence is, they do not believe that the person in that video was Tyler Robinson.

00:26:16.000 I, based off the evidence I've seen, do believe that the person in that video is Tyler Robinson.

00:26:21.000 And in that zoomed in video, like I said, you clearly see the individual, whom I believe to be Tyler Robinson, get on the roof, get in the prone position.

00:26:32.000 The timestamps match exactly when we know Charlie was shot.

00:26:36.000 Person gets up, individual runs and jumps off the other side of the building, just like we've all seen.

00:26:42.000 The zoomed in portion is the part that makes it So damning for Tyler Robinson because you see this individual get into that prone sniper position at the exact time stamps that we know Charlie was shot.

00:26:56.000 That's what I saw.

00:26:57.000 And what you're right, we're splitting semantics on this.

00:27:00.000 There's a group that no matter what you show, they do not believe that was Tyler Robinson.

00:27:05.000 I believe all the evidence points to Tyler Robinson.

00:27:08.000 And I believe that with the DNA plus the testimonies plus the confessions, all of this, and we haven't even got to his confession to the police.

00:27:16.000 We haven't even got to his parents talking about it.

00:27:19.000 I think it all paints a very clear picture.

00:27:21.000 And yeah, I think we have a lot of people that are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

00:27:26.000 Yeah, that's well said.

00:27:27.000 So, I mean, we can leave it there, Graham, but I just appreciate you being just very matter of fact, very down, you know, just the facts here.

00:27:35.000 We don't need to go further than what the facts are, but I think what it relates is that we need to see this stuff.

00:27:45.000 The public should have access to it, so there's no discussion, no argument about what's actually available when it comes to evidence.

00:27:55.000 So, anyways, I'm glad that you got to see it and got to relate that to us.

00:27:58.000 But, Graham, I know you've got a busy day.

00:28:00.000 I'm going to let you go, but thank you for making the time calling in.

00:28:03.000 Anytime, guys.

00:28:03.000 I appreciate it.

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00:30:01.000 All right, I just want to finish our discussion about Lindsey Graham here really quick.

00:30:08.000 So, why it's fascinating is the IRGC put out sort of some social media with targets around people's heads, including Lindsey Graham.

00:30:18.000 Which obviously is, you know, disconcerting.

00:30:22.000 It included Ben Shapiro, I think Laura Loomer, Lindsey Graham, some other people.

00:30:27.000 And they're claiming credit for it.

00:30:29.000 And I think that that is just a bunch of talk, candidly.

00:30:34.000 Yeah, you see that image right there.

00:30:36.000 I think that this plays into a narrative that they want to sell, and so they're going for it.

00:30:41.000 The other thing that I want to show is Annika Sparring from the Young Turks.

00:30:47.000 No, I don't really know her personally, I've met her.

00:30:51.000 I believe at the Republican National Convention when Charlie sat down with Cenk and Anna Kasparian.

00:30:59.000 But I didn't interact with her, by the way, at all.

00:31:01.000 She was kind of standoffish, whereas Cenk was very engaging and wanted to chat.

00:31:06.000 But she put out this just really nasty tweet after Lindsey Graham died and said, Good riddance. 0.90

00:31:15.000 Then some other people called her on it, said, That's a disgusting thing to do.

00:31:19.000 And she doubled down on it.

00:31:20.000 And it got even worse.

00:31:22.000 She said, Let me be perfectly clear.

00:31:26.000 She's really glad that this happened.

00:31:28.000 I can't see it on screen, so I've got to bring it up on my laptop here.

00:31:31.000 But she doubles down and she says, are you offended?

00:31:35.000 Let me clarify.

00:31:36.000 I'm elated that he's dead, overjoyed, just like he was elated at seeing countless children throughout the Middle East.

00:31:41.000 But then she got called out on it because in November of 2020, she tweeted this, what kind of monster thinks gloating about dead people is ever okay?

00:31:50.000 I guess apologists for ethnic cleansing. 0.99

00:31:53.000 So she's just a giant hypocrite, and I'm glad that the internet called her on it. 0.99

00:31:57.000 That this tweet is just, I think it's endemic of a larger societal rot. 0.99

00:32:02.000 When people get on social media, they're just willing to say that.

00:32:05.000 Craziest stuff.

00:32:05.000 They're willing to be reckless, mean, and cruel and vicious.

00:32:08.000 And she got called on it because it's a hypocritical thing to do. 0.92

00:32:11.000 And again, Blake and I will be the first to admit we have had very public political disagreements with Lindsey Graham. 0.85

00:32:19.000 We didn't like his war positions.

00:32:22.000 But don't do that. 0.99

00:32:24.000 Don't be Anna Kasparian.

00:32:25.000 Have some dignity.

00:32:26.000 Have some class.

00:32:27.000 Blake, I don't know if you want to comment on any of that or if you want to sort of take us into the recent updates on Iran.

00:32:33.000 Well, it just speaks to a lot, which is I think.

00:32:37.000 There's been an unfortunate general trend towards greater nastiness in politics, and that includes celebrating the deaths of people who politically offend you in some way.

00:32:48.000 I think this is a bad trend.

00:32:50.000 I think it's something we should push back against because celebrating someone's death eventually turns into justifying someone's death if they were murdered in some way.

00:33:00.000 We saw that with Charlie.

00:33:02.000 It turns into justifying other hateful actions against your political opponents.

00:33:07.000 That's incompatible with the type of country we want to live in.

00:33:11.000 One of the reasons America is such a successful and amazing country and has been for so long is we are a country where, by and large, we don't resolve our political differences with extreme hatred, with violence, with celebrating.

00:33:26.000 And that's something you do see in countries that are far less blessed than our own.

00:33:31.000 But you did mention how Lindsey Graham might feel about war in general.

00:33:37.000 And so we have recent developments in that.

00:33:39.000 We should pay attention to it.

00:33:41.000 President Trump announced just before this show began that the Strait of Hormuz is open and will remain open with or without Iran.

00:33:49.000 But he says we are reinstating the Iran blockade.

00:33:53.000 We had that blockade going for several months on Iranian ships.

00:33:56.000 And he says it's been brought back.

00:33:58.000 He also announces, The USA will be, from this point forward, known as, in all caps, the guardian of the Hormuz Strait.

00:34:08.000 But as such, and as a matter of fairness, will be reimbursed, the president says, at A rate of 20% on all cargo shipped for any and all costs necessary to do the job of providing safety and security to this very volatile section of the world.

00:34:26.000 The process will begin immediately.

00:34:28.000 Thank you for your attention to this matter.

00:34:30.000 This is interesting in a few ways.

00:34:32.000 It's us returning to a more assertive position in Iran.

00:34:35.000 And Andrew, I know you and I are both worried about this.

00:34:39.000 We spoke to students in our panels.

00:34:41.000 They repeatedly said, young people in their high schools, at their colleges, They're not super excited about the Iran conflict.

00:34:48.000 They would like for it to end.

00:34:51.000 And this is, I feel, the president trying to navigate that.

00:34:55.000 He doesn't want boots on the ground in Iran.

00:34:57.000 I think he realizes that would be deeply unpopular and deeply risky.

00:35:01.000 But he's also aware these long term conflicts, you need to take some sort of progress towards an end.

00:35:08.000 And so he's hoping that this can up pressure on Iran's economy.

00:35:12.000 He's also probably hoping this is a way he can sell this as not expensive for the United States.

00:35:18.000 That this is a way people have said, Why doesn't the Middle East pay more for its own defense?

00:35:23.000 Why doesn't the Middle East pay more for this conflict with Iran when they're overall in the long term going to be the chief beneficiaries of it?

00:35:30.000 So, when President Trump announces this, I think his hope is either we can pay for the war itself or we can put pressure on our allies in the Middle East to help us reach a permanent long term end to this. 0.69

00:35:42.000 And we just have to continue to hope that President Trump has good judgment on this because I do think we saw that with the chapter leaders that there is a lot of political gain to be made from finally bringing this conflict to an end.

00:35:56.000 And they thought it would be a pretty immediate gain if we were able to do that.

00:36:00.000 So, just to be clear, Between China, India, Japan, and South Korea, that accounts for about 70 to 75% of the energy that flows through the Strait of Hormuz.

00:36:10.000 So I think Europe gets a lot of that too. 0.85

00:36:12.000 So President Trump is basically saying, we'll keep it open, but Asia, you're going to be footing the bill. 0.99

00:36:18.000 So fair enough.

00:36:21.000 Good conversation is about respect.

00:36:24.000 It's how we create a space where people are able to share their ideas and be heard.

00:36:28.000 Charlie knew that.

00:36:29.000 Turning Point still knows that.

00:36:30.000 And TikTok has always strived to build the kind of place that thrives on respectful connection.

00:36:35.000 Where curiosity fuels connection and we can share what's on our minds and learn from each other.

00:36:40.000 When ideas meet respect, good things happen.

00:36:42.000 On TikTok, you can find a mechanic explaining the why behind a problem most of us wouldn't even know how to name, or a father sharing a lifetime of knowledge with his viewers, viewers who listen, discuss, and then they respond.

00:36:54.000 TikTok turns connection into community through small acts of understanding.

00:36:58.000 You can feel it in the comments, in the thank you from a stranger halfway across the world.

00:37:02.000 TikTok is a place where respect opens the door for discussion and discussion helps us build something real.

00:37:11.000 We have Orrin McIntyre.

00:37:13.000 He's a really deep thinker.

00:37:16.000 He's really into philosophy.

00:37:18.000 He's, of course, a host at the Belize.

00:37:19.000 Check out his stuff.

00:37:21.000 He's done actual interviews and debates with a man that has, I think, become a fascination of some on the right and larger political circles just because he's, apparently, he's been described as Putin's brain.

00:37:34.000 Now, Putin loyalists will contest that and say that that's an overstatement, certainly.

00:37:39.000 But nevertheless, he's become an important flashpoint in this Eurasian cultural block.

00:37:47.000 And I think it can explain a lot for us here in America as we try to understand some of the ideas that are shaping our current moment. 0.50

00:37:55.000 So, Orrin McIntyre, welcome back to the show, my friend.

00:37:59.000 Explain this.

00:38:01.000 I think we should start with Alexander Dugan's most seminal work, his most famous work, which is The Fourth Political Theory.

00:38:07.000 Explain in broad strokes what it is so our audience can understand the basic premise.

00:38:12.000 Sure.

00:38:12.000 So, Andrew, Alexander Dukin is trying to find a way beyond liberalism.

00:38:17.000 He sees us as living in a post liberal world and he wants to find a different political theory.

00:38:22.000 He sees liberalism as the first political theory of modernity and then communism and fascism as the second and third political theories that attempt to address the problems of liberalism.

00:38:34.000 He rejects liberalism, but he also recognizes the shortcomings of both communism and fascism.

00:38:39.000 And so he does something he calls breaking the hermeneutic circle, which is saying he wants to discard some of the worst elements of fascism or Communism and see if there are any other alternative ideas that could be found inside those ideologies once we have shorn them of the worst parts of them.

00:38:56.000 For him, the atheism and materialism of communism is the worst, and kind of the ethnic centering in fascism is the worst.

00:39:05.000 And he's trying to find a way forward with those.

00:39:07.000 Now, the problem with this is a couple different things, but ultimately, the thing you need to remember with all of Dugan's work is you have to read it in the frame of a man who is first and foremost centering his Eurasian project, the idea that the Russian Empire should have a natural dominance, it should be allowed to ascend, but the West is ultimately going to have to lose ground so that Russia and other countries can flourish.

00:39:32.000 I think there is some real, genuine philosophical insights in Dugan's work.

00:39:37.000 We always have to remember that you are dealing with a propagandist as you are going.

00:39:41.000 Through this.

00:39:41.000 You can't just read it as some kind of objective assessment of where we are philosophically.

00:39:47.000 Right.

00:39:47.000 So basically, the fourth political move in his estimation here is you had communism, he rejects that.

00:39:55.000 We had fascism, he rejects that.

00:39:57.000 And then we had liberalism, which he acknowledges sort of won the 20th century.

00:40:02.000 And so he's saying, you know, you can't fight back against liberalism without being called a fascist, basically.

00:40:09.000 But there is a fourth way, if you will, which is really just third.

00:40:13.000 Third way positionism, actually, but he's calling it a fourth way, which is ironic.

00:40:18.000 You talk about the fact that he is a political propagandist at his heart.

00:40:23.000 Why do you say that?

00:40:24.000 Well, if you read the fourth political theory, Dugan's not really hiding the ball.

00:40:27.000 He says that the West must be destroyed, that America must be destroyed.

00:40:32.000 The man has no love for Anglo civilization.

00:40:34.000 He sees it as something that ultimately came to dominate the world and has driven nations like Russia into some kind of artificial second place, and that they should have flourishing once they're freed from kind of this cage of Anglo domination. 0.64

00:40:49.000 So, it's very clear that he's very passionate about his political project.

00:40:53.000 And I think the best way to look at Dugan is perhaps to look at someone like Machiavelli.

00:40:57.000 Machiavelli wrote The Prince because he was looking for a job interview and because ultimately he had a project of Italian unification.

00:41:06.000 Everything he writes in that book is oriented towards that goal.

00:41:10.000 That doesn't mean there aren't certain deep insights we can draw from The Prince.

00:41:13.000 I have read a lot of Machiavelli and I use his work quite a bit.

00:41:16.000 But we always have to remember that he is writing.

00:41:18.000 In that context, and is famously known as a teacher of evil, I think we could probably at some level apply the same frame to Dugan, someone who does have deep philosophical insights, but we always have to keep what he's saying in that context of his project of kind of eventual Russian emergence after Western collapse.

00:41:37.000 So, and I want to get Blake in here because this is sort of his sweet spot too.

00:41:41.000 But my last question is and I, the reason I want to talk about this today, Oren, is because I think there is some confusion.

00:41:48.000 If you're just like a normie American conservative, which is nothing bad, by the way, we want you.

00:41:53.000 Spending most of your time raising your family, raising your kids, like volunteering at church, all those things, teaching Little League.

00:41:59.000 But there is, like, if you just kind of check in on social media, like, why are certain movements seeming to happen?

00:42:06.000 Why are people surprising me with their position on Russia, for example?

00:42:11.000 I think, I don't want to give him too much credit, but I think he's a piece of the puzzle of why some of these ideas that he's suggesting, because the critiques of modern liberalism are valid in many respects.

00:42:23.000 Us as American conservatives would share those critiques.

00:42:27.000 And they can be seductive to a larger narrative or agenda that he's got.

00:42:33.000 So, kind of break that down.

00:42:34.000 Like, why is it seductive what he's saying to an American conservative?

00:42:39.000 Maybe it's an influencer, maybe it's a podcaster, a thinker, commentary person.

00:42:43.000 Why is it seductive, but why should we, in your opinion, reject the larger premise?

00:42:48.000 Well, it's seductive because, frankly, Dugan is right about some things.

00:42:50.000 He is drawing on more classic thinkers.

00:42:53.000 He's drawing on Evola, he's drawing on Gunan, he's drawing on Carl Schmitt, he's drawing on Oswald Spengler.

00:43:00.000 He's drawing on people who have made real and important insights.

00:43:03.000 And so, some of the things that he's bringing to the table are things that you do have to grapple with.

00:43:08.000 But, like I said, ultimately, his project is one of destroying the West.

00:43:12.000 It is anti American in every way. 0.56

00:43:15.000 He really does see America as the great Satan. 0.96

00:43:18.000 He does see the need for it to basically die in a conflagration.

00:43:22.000 He often uses these apocalyptic terms that we need kind of this end times destruction of America and the West to ultimately allow these other nations to flourish.

00:43:33.000 A lot of times, even though Dugan will note the differences between civilizations, He blames the natural outcomes of their decisions on the West, as if we are somehow singularly responsible for the bad decisions and bad outcomes of other people's way of being.

00:43:48.000 And so I think it's just important to remember that while those conversations can be important, while that criticism can be valid, because he is drawing from older thinkers that I think do have solid points, ultimately, I think he's coming to a very dangerous conclusion, one which is deeply anti American.

00:44:05.000 We can address the issues of modernity without burning down.

00:44:10.000 Our heritage.

00:44:11.000 Those things do not have to coincide.

00:44:13.000 Well, Oren, what stands out to me is, as you said, he's super anti American.

00:44:17.000 So it stands out to me that some Americans, they like to fixate on this guy.

00:44:22.000 I think they like to find philosophers who are aggressively outside America's orbit.

00:44:27.000 And yet at the same time, he seems to me like someone, for someone who's supposedly outside America, he's totally guided to me by currents that are in Western, in American, in our.

00:44:41.000 Ideological stuff, and he just takes the position of America is terrible using the justifications they provide.

00:44:48.000 This is one, and we can get into this in the next segment.

00:44:51.000 He just tweeted this the other day The very concept of success is deeply immoral. 0.95

00:44:56.000 If you are successful, the other is a loser.

00:44:59.000 We shouldn't accept it.

00:45:00.000 We should prosper or suffer together.

00:45:03.000 Otherwise, it is satanic.

00:45:06.000 Honestly, that just sounds like he could be the court philosopher for like Zorhan Mamdani.

00:45:10.000 He could be the court philosopher for any.

00:45:13.000 Radical leftist.

00:45:14.000 It basically just sounds like communism.

00:45:16.000 And so it's funny to me that this would appeal to anyone in America.

00:45:21.000 Well, I just don't get it.

00:45:23.000 I say anyone on the American right.

00:45:25.000 No, this sounds repulsive.

00:45:26.000 What you just got to, Blake, is super important.

00:45:29.000 Let's just throw this tweet up here.

00:45:31.000 The very concept of success is deeply immoral. 0.98

00:45:34.000 If you are successful, the other is a loser.

00:45:36.000 We shouldn't accept it.

00:45:38.000 We should prosper or suffer together.

00:45:39.000 Otherwise, it is satanic.

00:45:42.000 This doesn't sound like a fourth way. 0.79

00:45:43.000 This just sounds like, you know, A communist rehash or something, Orin.

00:45:48.000 How is this seductive?

00:45:50.000 I think that, again, it's very attractive to people because a lot of Dugan's stuff does attack that decadence of modernity.

00:46:00.000 It does have realistic and reasonable criticisms of certain aspects of modern society, but his prescriptions can often be very terrible, as we see here.

00:46:12.000 One of the things that Dugan does is take the idea from Martin Heidegger of Dasein.

00:46:17.000 And applied to individual civilizations.

00:46:20.000 And he believes that all of these individual civilizational da signs are the same and have the same value and the same worth, that we can't judge each other because we do not have each other's experiences.

00:46:31.000 This is, if it sounds like postmodernism to people, in many ways it is.

00:46:35.000 It's a kind of a synthesis of traditionalism and postmodernism, which I think, again, lures a lot of people in because they hear the traditionalism, they see the critiques, they feel that to be correct.

00:46:45.000 But then ultimately they get led down some of these sideways paths that are.

00:46:50.000 Ultimately, very influenced by things like critical theory.

00:46:52.000 If you read the fourth political theory, it has chapters on why basically you need to abolish the differences between genders and why you can't, you know, you have to abolish the evils of racism across the world.

00:47:04.000 So these are in the fourth political theory.

00:47:06.000 They aren't just in the man's tweets.

00:47:07.000 They've always been a part of his philosophy.

00:47:09.000 Interesting.

00:47:11.000 Here's another tweet from him The tradition is the East. 0.91

00:47:15.000 Eastern Christianity is tradition.

00:47:17.000 Western Christianity is modernized.

00:47:19.000 The far west Christianity, Protestantism, is more modern than simply Western Christianity, which he labels as Catholicism.

00:47:27.000 The West is the thrash of history, the black hole in the bottom of reality.

00:47:35.000 I also have to just point out here that his whole worldview is putting sort of philosopher kings, guys like him, at the very top of the hierarchy in a civilization, this multipolar civilizational world that he's advocating for with Eurasia as a singular block.

00:47:53.000 He would be the ruler of said civilization.

00:47:55.000 So that's something to always keep in mind.

00:47:58.000 You've met this guy, or at least interviewed him.

00:48:01.000 I don't know if it was over Zoom or something, right?

00:48:04.000 But you did a debate with him.

00:48:06.000 What did you perceive in that debate?

00:48:09.000 Is he quick on his feet?

00:48:10.000 Was he able to answer criticisms of his philosophy, whether well or not?

00:48:16.000 So, interestingly, I have both interviewed him, and then I was able to arrange a debate between him and another philosopher by the name of Nick Land.

00:48:22.000 People who are on Twitter have probably seen him post pretty regularly.

00:48:27.000 But it was a very interesting discussion. 0.99

00:48:29.000 I think, again, I don't think Dugan is stupid. 0.96

00:48:32.000 I think it's a bad idea to underestimate your enemy on this one. 0.97

00:48:37.000 He is a very intelligent guy.

00:48:39.000 However, when he was in that debate between himself and Nick Land, it was very interesting because Nick Land is in many ways a hyper Anglo philosopher.

00:48:48.000 He is extremely interested in the West and believes in the mission of the West and perhaps a way that many people are not as serious when it comes to kind of the hyper modern understanding of the West as where Dugan was very much an Eastern traditionalist.

00:49:00.000 And so there, The clashing between the two was very interesting.

00:49:03.000 I found that while Dugan was intelligent and was able to defend many of his positions, it did seem like Land was operating at a higher level, that ultimately there were several times where he kind of ran into a barrier.

00:49:14.000 And I think that Land very much got the best of him.

00:49:17.000 I did not debate him directly because I think Nick Land is a much more intelligent guy who can bring those criticisms and those questions far more sharply than I can.

00:49:25.000 But if people want to catch that, it is an absolutely fascinating discussion.

00:49:29.000 And I think it will help you understand a little bit of.

00:49:32.000 Where the differences are between these two worldviews.

00:49:35.000 So, Oren, I don't know that too many of our listeners are going to race out and read this guy's books, but so that they can understand him better, maybe what's a good takeaway if you encounter a podcaster who's into this, an ex poster who's into this, just someone in real life who's an enthusiast for Dugan, who's American, this guy who wants to basically destroy America, what's it maybe indicate about them, for lack of a better word?

00:50:04.000 Well, I think that, again, the fact that there are truths in Dugan's work does make it attractive to people.

00:50:10.000 I don't think it's ridiculous to find insights there.

00:50:12.000 I have personally found insights in Dugan's work that are helpful.

00:50:16.000 But ultimately, we have to remember, again, that the frame is always one of, you know, the Western imperialism is evil.

00:50:23.000 It is going to crush all societies.

00:50:24.000 It must be defeated. 0.99

00:50:26.000 The United States must be destroyed. 0.57

00:50:27.000 And you ultimately cannot side with that.

00:50:29.000 Just because someone has some insights into something important doesn't mean that they're right.

00:50:34.000 You know, Karl Marx was right that there were some issues with capitalism that.

00:50:38.000 The alienation of labor ultimately does cause certain impacts to people that are negative.

00:50:43.000 However, his solution is horrific and killed hundreds of millions of people and absolutely has to be rejected.

00:50:50.000 And I would see Dugan very much as a similar light.

00:50:53.000 It's a guy who has certain insights, and you can find those insights outside of Dugan.

00:50:58.000 Remember, most of his stuff is synthesizing other people's work.

00:51:01.000 So there are plenty of thinkers he's drawing from that you can look at and understand without necessarily having to go to Dugan.

00:51:07.000 And even if you do read Dugan, you should always remember that he's ultimately an enemy of your civilization.

00:51:12.000 And no matter what, no matter what critiques he has that might have some important insight, ultimately you can never ever side with the solutions that the man has.

00:51:22.000 Because they are directly aimed at destroying your own civilization.

00:51:25.000 You should never become a traitor to your own civilization, even if there are some problems with it.

00:51:31.000 We should be trying to renew our civilization, not destroy it.

00:51:35.000 Yeah, and our critiques are more pointed at radical progressivism, radical egalitarianism, where everybody gets the same outcome in life.

00:51:42.000 We don't agree with those things.

00:51:43.000 Less so with liberalism, which is our tradition in the West, which is the individual matters.

00:51:52.000 Yeah, I think you can go into a hyper individualist.

00:51:55.000 Worldview and materialism and all these things can be very destructive as well.

00:51:58.000 And I think the Bible answers so much of that.

00:52:01.000 We are part of a community, a community of faith.

00:52:03.000 We are brothers and sisters in Christ.

00:52:05.000 We are not hyper individuals, but we have individual rights enshrined in our Constitution.

00:52:09.000 That's a beautiful thing.

00:52:10.000 Oren McIntyre, check out his show and check out his Alexander Dugan debates and interviews.

00:52:15.000 That's fascinating.

00:52:16.000 Thank you, Oren.

00:52:19.000 All right.

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00:53:26.000 All right.

00:53:26.000 So I want to bring in Joshua Carr.

00:53:29.000 He's a political commentator.

00:53:30.000 You can find him at X at Joshua underscore the underscore car with one R.

00:53:36.000 And he attended Tyler Robinson's preliminary hearing and had all kinds of interesting and fascinating observations.

00:53:45.000 We'll put it that way.

00:53:45.000 And you've been so good and loud, Joshua.

00:53:49.000 You've even received death threats for being so loud.

00:53:52.000 So just tell us, 30,000 foot view, what you saw in that courtroom and around that courthouse.

00:53:57.000 Yeah, it's good to be with you guys.

00:53:59.000 Thanks for inviting me on today.

00:54:01.000 I really wanted to be in the courthouse on a day where a lot of the Information was coming out that the public wouldn't be able to see because I knew there would be bad actors inside the courtroom that day that were trying to lie.

00:54:11.000 Fortunately, I was able to be there on Thursday, which is when a massive portion of the evidence was coming out.

00:54:16.000 Some of that evidence, as we know, and I'm sure you've talked about, was leaked to the public.

00:54:20.000 And when I say leaked, it was a mistake that happened in the courtroom.

00:54:23.000 So I know you guys have seen a lot of that.

00:54:24.000 But beyond what was actually shown in the courtroom that day, I was able to see the emotions on people's faces.

00:54:30.000 I was able to see, frankly, a human side of the defense and the Tyler Robinson side that I didn't realize.

00:54:36.000 I've always been a strong defender of.

00:54:38.000 Of TPUSA.

00:54:40.000 I've been a strong defender of Erica Kirk and all of you guys, but what I didn't realize was that at no point did the Tyler Robinson family, which was sat directly in front of me, by the way, look defiant against the prosecution, look angry.

00:54:53.000 They were simply, and I could see it in their eyes because I stared into their eyes, they were sad at seeing what Tyler Robinson had done.

00:55:00.000 And looking at Tyler Robinson, he was completely stone cold.

00:55:03.000 He did not move a muscle the entire time that I was there.

00:55:06.000 And again, I was watching him and had a clear view of him for at least eight hours.

00:55:11.000 Yeah, it's interesting.

00:55:11.000 I mean, I've talked to some reporters who were in the room.

00:55:14.000 I've obviously talked to some of the team that was in the room.

00:55:16.000 And it's interesting that part you're zeroing in on, which is Tyler Robinson's family.

00:55:22.000 I was told a story, maybe you could confirm it, I'm not sure.

00:55:27.000 But when they were recounting some of those text messages that were going back and forth, and I want to be somewhat vague just to respect the privacy of his family as well, because they're not the criminals here, right?

00:55:39.000 Or the alleged criminals.

00:55:41.000 And candidly, his parents.

00:55:43.000 From all accounts, did a brave thing, and it must be terrible, right?

00:55:47.000 And I'm led to believe that they're probably on the conservative end of the spectrum.

00:55:51.000 But when that text message was read about Gramp's gun looks like it's doing just fine or did just fine, I'm told that one of the family members that was there basically just his head hit the floor because obviously he must have had a relationship with Grandpa.

00:56:09.000 And again, I'm sorry to be vague, I'm just saying I want to be respectful of their privacy, but when that text was Was read that the head just hit the floor, just complete devastation to kind of realize that his family member and his family member's gun, somebody that probably had a relationship with, was used to kill somebody of such import, a legend of American, a conservative American, Charlie Kirk.

00:56:34.000 You know, I did you see any of that?

00:56:37.000 Yeah, I did.

00:56:38.000 I that was probably the most emotional part of the entire day was when they read that specific text that you just referenced.

00:56:44.000 And like I said, I had a perfect view of the entire Robinson family.

00:56:48.000 And I won't say who it is either to be respectful to them, but this individual hung their head at that point and it was hung pretty much the entire time after that.

00:56:57.000 In fact, towards the end, I think maybe the last two or three hours, they didn't come back inside the courtroom.

00:57:02.000 They were clearly very upset.

00:57:04.000 I also heard a lot of emotion behind me.

00:57:06.000 I was right in front of Erica Kirk and Charlie's parents.

00:57:09.000 And, you know, one of the directives that we got being in there was you cannot turn your head, you cannot react in any way.

00:57:16.000 If you try to look at somebody to the left or right, you will be kicked out of the courtroom out of respect to the victims.

00:57:21.000 And so, I had this moment of just having to look forward and hear the family of Charlie Kirk weep behind me.

00:57:28.000 And it was honestly one of the hardest things I have ever had to listen to in my life.

00:57:33.000 And I was quite emotional as well.

00:57:35.000 You received some death threats, too, Joshua, because you have been outspoken.

00:57:40.000 You were, I guess, planned and scheduled to speak at UVU's campus after a court hearing one day.

00:57:48.000 You ended up having to cancel that.

00:57:49.000 Tell us the details.

00:57:52.000 I've been in this business a few years now.

00:57:54.000 We receive death threats from time to time.

00:57:55.000 I'm sure both of you are fully used to that, especially in the last 10 months.

00:58:00.000 But it's definitely been increased over the last few months.

00:58:03.000 Yeah, sadly.

00:58:04.000 But it's been increased over the last few months as I've continued to push back harder and harder against the conspiracy crap that Baron Coleman and Candace Owens and the likes are spreading.

00:58:13.000 And so that kind of reached ahead this week.

00:58:16.000 Again, I'm used to getting those messages online, but it was a little different this week on Friday, right before I was going to go to this event at UVU.

00:58:25.000 Again, in the same place that Charlie Kirk was murdered, I received a call actually on my personal cell phone from someone who was impersonating a police officer.

00:58:33.000 They were using phishing tactics.

00:58:35.000 I won't go into too much detail on.

00:58:37.000 And they were essentially trying to get my address using public records.

00:58:42.000 Fortunately, this person does not know where I live.

00:58:43.000 They do not know my location.

00:58:45.000 But in the moment, frankly, I didn't even realize what they were trying to do.

00:58:48.000 It wasn't until they abruptly hung up that it occurred to me that they were openly trying to dox me.

00:58:53.000 And I saw some other evidence of that online.

00:58:55.000 So my wife respectfully asked me not to attend the event at UVU that night with all of that going on.

00:59:02.000 That's unbelievable.

00:59:03.000 Yeah, that's horrible.

00:59:04.000 And, um, I'm sorry that you had to experience that just for standing up for what you believe in, standing up for facts and evidence, which is something that unfortunately in the online space so often gets cast aside.

00:59:19.000 Why did you feel so moved to be so vocal from early on?

00:59:24.000 That's a really great question.

00:59:25.000 Yes.

00:59:26.000 Yeah.

00:59:26.000 And I don't mean to say that in any sort of comparison way, but all the way back in September, I started seeing conspiracies come out and it really ticked me off.

00:59:34.000 And if you look at, Any of my social media or my YouTube channel, you know, that really has been my work for the last 10 months is trying to debunk these theories.

00:59:42.000 I think part of the reason for me, and I can't really claim any credit for this, is that I live a few minutes away from UVU and I grew up in Provo, Utah.

00:59:49.000 And I know literally over 100 people who are at this event with Charlie.

00:59:54.000 In fact, I myself wanted to be at the event that day and wasn't able to because I had a doctor's appointment.

01:00:00.000 And so it being close to home is what has particularly enraged me, frankly, with the conspiracy.

01:00:06.000 Conspiracy theories, just knowing individuals that Candace Owens and others have brought up, who I know for a fact that she is lying about, that really ticked me off.

01:00:15.000 On another personal note, when I was 18 years old, I lost my father in a work accident.

01:00:22.000 That was very tragic and sudden.

01:00:23.000 And so my mother is a widow.

01:00:26.000 I have a fierce loyalty to widows and feel that, you know, I've just never seen this attack on someone.

01:00:33.000 And I know how hard it was for my mother to lose her husband.

01:00:36.000 And so to see someone lose their husband.

01:00:38.000 And then be viciously attacked and not supported has really just made me emotional and made me want to be a strong defender of Erica as well as the truth.

01:00:47.000 Thank you for that.

01:00:48.000 And genuinely, what was it like around the courthouse, Joshua?

01:00:54.000 Because I've seen you interacting with some of these other people that were more on the conspiratorial side of things and pushing alternative theories, right?

01:01:04.000 What was it like around the courthouse?

01:01:06.000 Was it kind of a circus environment?

01:01:07.000 Was it pretty subdued?

01:01:09.000 Did you see them?

01:01:10.000 Were they trying to recruit people?

01:01:12.000 I'm just curious what it was like out there.

01:01:14.000 Yeah.

01:01:14.000 So I was there Monday morning when everyone came, and Monday morning was actually quite subdued.

01:01:18.000 The mainstream media was kind of the dominant force there.

01:01:21.000 Everyone was watching people come in.

01:01:23.000 I did notice one person who I knew was a notable kind of Candace Owens fan or loyalist, but she was quite quiet and subdued.

01:01:31.000 And I thought this was very good.

01:01:33.000 You know, it was either people there to support Erica Kirk or the mainstream media, and that was great.

01:01:38.000 But as time went on, and when I was there on Thursday all day, There were more and more Candace Owens fans kind of coming out of the woodworks.

01:01:45.000 I would say it was mostly respectful outside, but I will say in order to get in the courthouse on Thursday, I had to camp out for.

01:01:52.000 So I actually had someone go for me at 9 p.m. the previous day and get a spot.

01:01:58.000 And then I showed up at 2 a.m. the morning of Thursday.

01:02:01.000 And when I got there, there was bickering and these people were essentially trying to debate other people in line with random conspiracy theories.

01:02:10.000 Of course, they didn't want to engage in any of the facts that had been presented by the prosecution.

01:02:14.000 Instead, they brought up ancillary crazy things that had nothing to do with the actual case.

01:02:20.000 So it certainly increased over time.

01:02:22.000 And I did hear them actively talking about being at the September 1st hearing.

01:02:26.000 Were there police there?

01:02:27.000 Were there security in that line waiting to get in?

01:02:32.000 There were police kind of around since it was in the early morning.

01:02:35.000 You know, there were police cars that would occasionally come in.

01:02:37.000 I felt relatively safe there.

01:02:39.000 The lights were on.

01:02:40.000 As it got closer towards the day around six o'clock, the police force was very strong, very present.

01:02:47.000 The head of security came out, told everyone, you know, we're doing this by the book.

01:02:52.000 If you want to do any shenanigans, you're immediately off the premises.

01:02:55.000 And then what really stunned me, frankly, was in the courthouse, in the courtroom itself, I think there were eight police officers kind of staring us down at any time.

01:03:04.000 And to be honest, I appreciated it because as someone who is now a public figure and who is getting these death threats, it was nice to be able to be in that setting and feel safe and feel like I could actually watch the evidence being presented without something crazy going down.

01:03:17.000 Joshua, I was just a few questions that I think it's good to build upon this because you faced targeting people trying to dox you who seem to be coming from this side of the issue.

01:03:30.000 And especially the doxing part, that stood out to me.

01:03:33.000 That's a tactic.

01:03:35.000 We're familiar with from the far left that they'll try to get people's identities so they can swat them, so they can picket their home.

01:03:44.000 Nothing good is ever going to come of that.

01:03:46.000 And it's never something that would occur to Andrew or myself or people we know here.

01:03:51.000 So I've sometimes nicknamed those supporters Cantifa because they remind me of Antifa, but maybe you've had other encounters.

01:04:00.000 What's their ideological makeup of people who are really committed to?

01:04:05.000 These conspiracy theories about the case?

01:04:08.000 What's driving them?

01:04:09.000 What's motivating them in your view?

01:04:12.000 That's a really great question.

01:04:13.000 I used to get more death threats from the left, and it feels like now I'm getting it more from the far right.

01:04:18.000 It seems to me that these people are more far right isolationists, but I think for the most part, it's actually not as political as we think it is.

01:04:25.000 I think the far left is always going to dox, they're always going to send the death threats.

01:04:28.000 But I think for this case specifically, it's so much more a cult of personality for them.

01:04:33.000 It's more about the political commentators and the podcasters that they're following.

01:04:37.000 I think there's a huge loneliness.

01:04:39.000 Epidemic, frankly, you know, I was watching Charlie Kirk just now in the commercial break, and he had so much timeless wisdom.

01:04:45.000 He's speaking in this clip I just watched to young women talking about what is going to give them fulfillment, what's going to make them satisfied in life.

01:04:52.000 They're talking about having kids.

01:04:54.000 And unfortunately, there are so many women, specifically right now, but still men as well, but I'm seeing it more from women that are not pursuing the things that give them life and satisfaction and happiness. 0.99

01:05:05.000 And so instead, they're turning to things like crazy podcasters who give them conspiracy theories.

01:05:10.000 And the reality is, all of us, Love a good story.

01:05:13.000 We love interesting things to look into.

01:05:15.000 And so, unfortunately, that can really take a part of the worst parts of us as humans.

01:05:20.000 And I think that's what's happened for a lot of these people.

01:05:21.000 I don't even really know if it's a left or right wing kind of thing.

01:05:25.000 Yeah, I actually don't.

01:05:27.000 I think this is actually an important point because I don't ascribe any of this movement or whatever it is you want to call it, a social media scene, as right coded at all, as conservative at all.

01:05:39.000 It actually feels very left coded, to Blake's point.

01:05:42.000 I mean, I think the nickname he applied is.

01:05:44.000 Probably apt, right? 0.86

01:05:45.000 Because so much of what we're seeing, you know, collective guilt for all Jewish people, right? 0.96

01:05:50.000 Just completely going like every answer.

01:05:54.000 It's like a Sunday school kid where every answer is Jesus. 0.92

01:05:57.000 You know, it's like every answer is Israel or Jews.

01:06:00.000 Andrew, I'd be really interested if there was a way we could dissect this, for example, whether a lot of these people maybe they were originally apolitical or somewhat to the left, they identified as moving to the right, maybe during COVID, as an example, where that realigned a lot of people politically.

01:06:17.000 I'd be really interested if a lot of the people who are getting involved in this had that arc of starting on the left, moving to the right.

01:06:25.000 They maybe still identify as on the right, but these tendencies are resurfacing in some way.

01:06:31.000 I think it'd be so interesting to unpack because this phenomenon is so alien to anything I've seen come out of the right anytime in the past 20 years.

01:06:42.000 There's been, sometimes they've gotten into theories, but the very personal aspect of it, of really going after Erica, going after Turning Point, going after people Charlie knew, doxing them, it's just, it's so left coded to me.

01:06:55.000 It just, I don't know where they're learning these habits from.

01:06:59.000 Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of Bell Ayers and, you know, the idea of going after your political opponents, personalizing it.

01:07:08.000 I'm thinking of the tactics where you use personal insults, where you personalize the attacks, and then you kind of make a sport out of terrorizing and harassing.

01:07:23.000 That does seem to be a left wing tactic that we're seeing play out from right coded accounts.

01:07:30.000 But I think to your point, Blake, they're probably a lot of these people have been sojourners on the political journeys and have been shapeshifters, and they're returning to their neutral position, their default position.

01:07:40.000 Very possible.

01:07:41.000 I have another question, Joshua.

01:07:43.000 Since you're from that area around UVU, I know something we're all worried about is this will likely go towards a trial.

01:07:51.000 They will be filling a jury.

01:07:53.000 We asked Andrea Burkhardt about this.

01:07:56.000 What's the overall environment like in the area around where the shooting happened?

01:08:03.000 Is there a high risk that if you just selected 12 random registered voters from Utah County, that will get someone who would just be very committed to, I'm going to vote for an acquittal no matter what, because I just will never, ever believe that Tyler Robinson did this?

01:08:20.000 Should we worry about that?

01:08:21.000 It's a concern I've had as well.

01:08:23.000 It's something that's constantly in my mind, especially over the last seven days.

01:08:27.000 I think the good news is that most people, if you ask them, do you know, like, have you looked into this a ton?

01:08:34.000 Most of them are going to say, Oh, I've heard these weird things about it online because unfortunately, Candace Owens has done a fantastic job of propagandizing all of this.

01:08:42.000 But the good news is, most people, to be honest with you, really don't know anything about this.

01:08:47.000 And if they don't know anything about it, 100% the prosecution is going to do a fantastic job convincing them.

01:08:53.000 So I think that needs to be the strategy from the prosecution and picking the jury they want people who really know as little as possible because it's just such a slam dunk.

01:09:03.000 I mean, the preliminary hearing alone was enough evidence to really.

01:09:06.000 Bring a conviction pretty much.

01:09:07.000 And I know for a fact they're going to have a lot more when they go to trial.

01:09:11.000 So I guess overall, to answer your question, no, I'm not concerned.

01:09:14.000 I think there are a lot of people, a meaningful group of people who, yes, they know a lot.

01:09:20.000 Yes, they are very bought into the conspiracies, but I think the prosecution can weed them out in an effective way.

01:09:26.000 And the vast majority, I mean, I would say upwards of 90 to 95% heard about this shooting, thought it was awful.

01:09:34.000 And beyond that, they really don't know a lot about it.

01:09:38.000 That's very reassuring to hear.

01:09:39.000 And I can only hope this will grow because I just feel the nasty behavior that comes out of this.

01:09:46.000 I feel it has to be very alienating.

01:09:48.000 Again, I think back in 2020, for example, there was a lot of sympathy towards the BLM movement, for example.

01:09:55.000 And then they start torching cities, they start smashing shops, they start terrorizing people, and it turns people against that. 0.68

01:10:03.000 And I just feel there's really nothing likable about this entire movement to me.

01:10:08.000 So, I just have to hope that you're correct about how this will evolve.

01:10:12.000 Well, and Joshua, did you feel that the last week was a seminal week in the tide turning?

01:10:18.000 Did you feel a discernible difference?

01:10:20.000 30 seconds.

01:10:21.000 100%.

01:10:22.000 Yeah.

01:10:22.000 I mean, there's a part of me, and this is totally a selfish human part of me, that is seeing all of the tides turning.

01:10:27.000 And I'm like, well, dang, it would have been really awesome if you guys had joined in in September when some of us actually just took a stand and had the courage to do that.

01:10:35.000 But it's fine.

01:10:36.000 At the end of the day, it's good that the tides are turning 100%, both with normal, average people, it's turning, but also you're seeing it all over X.

01:10:44.000 I think Candace and her cult are pretty much done for.

01:10:47.000 Joshua Carr, thank you for being brave and for being brave early.

01:10:51.000 We appreciate you.

01:10:56.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - July 13, 2026

The Legacy of Lindsey Graham + Who Is Alexander Dugin?

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