00:00:56.000Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
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00:01:56.000We covered it during this show or we watched it live on this show and then we covered it at night.
00:02:01.000So thank you so much to all of you who tuned into that.
00:02:04.000Those episodes did monster numbers so I know a lot of you were interested in hearing about it and bringing in Graham Allen and Brandon Tatum and Jack Posobic, and all those who were in the courtroom, along with all the experts that we brought in to help break it all down.
00:02:19.000So, in all, it was a really tough week.
00:02:22.000And, you know, Erica had, you know, we had planned CLS Chapter Leadership Summit in DC a long, long time ago.
00:02:30.000And then the judge postponed the preliminary hearing.
00:02:33.000It was originally supposed to be in April, then it was in May, and then it got moved to this front part of July.
00:02:38.000So, it just fell right in the middle of it.
00:02:40.000And actually, I said this to some people, Blake, it ended up being, I feel like, providential timing, because it gave us an opportunity and gave Erica an opportunity to go from what was a really challenging, emotional week, watching and reliving those details from that terrible day, to then going to be around thousands of students in Washington DC, getting to experience firsthand what Turning Point is building all across the country, chapter by chapter, and then getting to meet them.
00:03:06.000And then Blake and I had the opportunity to sit down for multiple round tables with high school students, with college students all across the country, to hear directly from them, and Blake, and I'm sure, will get a chance to tell you more about that, but we'll be releasing that footage very soon.
00:03:21.000In the meantime, I want to play some of these clips because they're excellent from Erica, who just gave such an amazing, amazing speech at CLS.
00:03:31.000And by the way, just made us so proud.
00:04:08.000And I stood by his side through every sleepless night, through every moment of concern, through every phone call, through every high, through every low of the things he could control and the things he couldn't.
00:05:19.000And the Chapter Leadership Summit, it was just tremendous.
00:05:22.000I had a tremendous time there, not just in those panels that you and I were doing, but when we weren't doing those, I tried to just wander around the floor and talk to the different people.
00:05:33.000I heard so many incredible testimonies.
00:05:35.000I talked to students who said, I got baptized after what happened to Charlie.
00:05:42.000I met person after person with testimony like that.
00:05:45.000And I think it speaks immensely to Erica that she spent that whole exhausting week in Utah and immediately turned around, flew out to run and speak at this event because that's what needs to get done.
00:05:59.000That's how the work is going to be continued in the years and we hope decades to come.
00:06:03.000Blake, one of the things I was struck by was there was a reporter there that I spoke to briefly, and his line to me was pretty profound.
00:06:12.000He said, I just love interacting with these students.
00:06:19.000And I'm telling you, everybody in this audience that maybe is looking at the chaos on social media or what's going on in Iran, and we're going to get into Lindsey Graham, maybe even some of the conspiracies around that story, which are.
00:06:36.000But if you get distracted or you get discouraged, if you spend some time around some Turning Point students, it will give you hope like you wouldn't believe.
00:06:46.000It is an absolute white pill how dedicated they are.
00:06:51.000The way they speak about their faith, the way they speak about what Charlie meant to them, what Turning Point means to them, it is an absolute white pill.
00:06:58.000And I can't wait to get those panels out, Blake, because it was really fascinating.
00:07:04.000You get inside the mind of a Gen Zer And by the way, some of these high school students that we talked to in that one panel, Blake, they're born in 2008, 2009.
00:07:14.000They were, yeah, they're born in 2008.
00:07:17.000So they basically have no memory even of Barack Obama winning an election.
00:07:22.000And you mentioned they're so upbeat, and that's so tremendous to me because I feel that nostalgia is such a big part of MAGA.
00:07:29.000It's people who think, wow, America was winning so hard in the 80s, in the 90s, post 9 11, it went downhill.
00:07:36.000These are kids who never had the blessing to live through it, where it just felt like America was firing on all cylinders.
00:07:43.000And for them to still be so upbeat, to believe so powerfully in what this country can do and how we can revitalize that, that's tremendous.
00:08:30.000I would much rather our country look like this room than the inside of that courtroom.
00:08:39.000And that got a huge cheer afterwards, which was cut off there.
00:08:42.000But it really is that we want this country to be all those kids in that room who believe in faith, who believe in America, who believe that whatever challenges there are, they can be overcome.
00:09:21.000It's just students doing training, getting together, meeting each other, getting equipped to go back out and take their chapters to the next level.
00:09:30.000Chapter Leadership Summit in Turning Point History.
00:09:51.000So free speech was actually young people's at CLS biggest concern, which I think was interesting simply because they're, I think, being inundated with information and news stories like the UK is banning social media, they're being told what they can and can't look at.
00:10:09.000One of the things that emerged from our conversations, we asked a bunch of high school kids and college kids, what do you think about banning social media for young people?
00:10:18.000And I think they were all basically against it, right?
00:10:22.000But they wanted to pursue other ways of how do you use it responsibly?
00:10:26.000How do we be taught to look at source information and things like that?
00:10:30.000But they acknowledged that there's a lot of slop and a lot of disinformation on social media, but they certainly don't want to be limited in their ability to use it.
00:10:41.000And yeah, just to emphasize to people so, smaller number, it was all, they were asked to rank all of these issues in order, and it's sort of their average number.
00:10:48.000So, free speech on average was around fourth, but rankings were all over the place.
00:12:54.000Most of them will be voters in 2026 for the midterm.
00:12:58.000So when we talk about these issues, I think it's really helpful for the larger audience to understand and bring it home for them of, you know, it's literally, that's what they mentioned, a burrito should not cost 20 bucks.
00:13:28.000We, you know, 29%, 28% inflation over four years with Joe Biden, money printing out the wazoo during COVID.
00:13:34.000All of these things make sense to them once you explain it to them, but sometimes you have to explain the basics before you get to right thinking and proper thinking.
00:13:44.000Danny points out something pretty smart, which is cost of living was only in the middle, but he points out if they're in high school, even if they're in college, a lot of them still live at home.
00:13:54.000They might get subsidized by their parents.
00:13:57.000It's when you get thrown into The pool on the deep end of adulthood that it really starts to stand out to you.
00:14:04.000And then if we were doing this event for people who were 27, this might be all the way up at the top as a result.
00:14:11.000I think another thing worth flagging foreign affairs, foreign policy in general, it's in the bottom third of the list, on average, ranked almost 10th place.
00:14:21.000And national security is a bit higher, but you can link that to immigration, which it's right alongside.
00:14:27.000I think something we saw repeatedly was people do want a government that's very focused.
00:14:32.000On America, on American issues, on domestic stuff.
00:14:36.000A lot of them, when we had those panels, they said they were willing to trust President Trump's decision making on Iran, on foreign policy questions, but their ideal was still a government that is very clearly domestically focused in its orientation.
00:14:52.000And I think that this list bears that out.
00:14:54.000One of the things that's interesting is a lot of these kids are pretty radical on immigration, but to see it in the aggregate, where it's the fact that it's not a top three issue, I think speaks to the fact that.
00:15:06.000It is one of those issues when you have success with it.
00:15:09.000We closed down the border and the illegal crossings.
00:15:12.000That unfortunately, people forget about it.
00:15:15.000It's just one of those things where if you fix a problem, it's almost hard to get credit for it because it's not in the headlines anymore.
00:15:24.000Now, there is much more interest in when you start talking about H 1Bs, when you start talking about job prospects, when you start talking about legal immigration, the kids' ears perk up, and there is a lot of interest in that.
00:15:36.000But I just, one observation that it's not higher simply because.
00:15:43.000You're not seeing images of caravans crossing over the southern border anymore like we were seeing under Biden.
00:15:49.000And so it's falling down the priority list.
00:15:50.000And I just hope that we can translate that electorally and make sure that President Trump gets the proper credit for it and the conservatives do.
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00:17:30.000What are you hearing on the ground in South Carolina?
00:17:33.000Well, the president just made a post that he recommended to Governor McMasters that Lindsey Graham's sister be the interim to serve out the end of their term.
00:18:00.000I mean, this is going to be, honestly, it's whoever gets the president's endorsement who it's going to be.
00:18:07.000I've heard names float around Pam Avet, Ralph Norman, Nancy Mace.
00:18:12.000I've even heard former congressmen, former governors, things like that.
00:18:18.000Here's what I'll say, and this is a Grand Island take, and this is one reason why me and the SCGOP don't always see eye to eye.
00:18:26.000I don't think that people that just got skull dragged in a statewide race.
00:18:31.000Should be given a consolation prize of a Senate seat.
00:18:35.000Senate seats do not come open often in South Carolina.
00:18:40.000I think that this is an opportunity for the president to take a moment, Susie Walsh, James Blair, all of them to take a moment.
00:18:47.000The president gets to make a decision on who to put his endorsement behind without the concern of potentially ticking off the SCGOP because he's not putting together a presidential campaign.
00:19:02.000This is the first time in a long time.
00:19:04.000That the president has a chance to make a selection based off who he thinks the best fighter will be.
00:19:13.000As we know, we have a whole new era of Democrat socialists that are making it through their primaries right now.
00:19:20.000We've got a whole new fight going on the Hill in the House and in the Senate.
00:19:26.000I think that this is an opportunity to take just a minute and, hey, I think it needs to be somebody younger.
00:19:32.000I don't think we need to put a 70 year old person in the Senate seat.
00:19:39.000There's got to be somebody in the state of South Carolina that can be a fighter for the president and the America First agenda.
00:19:46.000And there's got to be somebody that can be agile and adapt to the battles that are coming very soon to D.C. at the House floor and in the House and the Senate.
00:20:31.000And it was actually kind of a touching story.
00:20:33.000I had a ton of political disagreements with Lindsey Graham.
00:20:38.000As a matter of fact, as soon as I got the news, I was like, man, I definitely tweeted some harsh things about Lindsey Graham in the last couple of months.
00:20:48.000But whatever my disagreements were with the guy, it sounds like from people's recounting of their interactions, their friendships with him, that he was amicable, that he was willing to let political disagreements not impact his friendship towards people.
00:21:27.000Al Franken, who was a colleague of his in the Senate, has repeatedly told people Lindsey Graham is the funniest person he knew in the Senate.
00:21:36.000Apparently, at one point, he met him in a bathroom or something and told him, Hey, if I were a Republican, I'd vote for you in the presidential election.
00:21:44.000And he immediately replies, That's my problem.
00:21:48.000And he had a few fun stories like that.
00:22:23.000It looked like that nomination might fail.
00:22:26.000And he stepped up and he absolutely destroyed those incredibly bogus allegations against Kavanaugh, fought hard for him, and had an amazing photo of him adjusting his tie while some liberal shrieked in the background.
00:23:12.000What makes it even stranger is that I got a call last night sometime in the early evening, maybe in the sevens, and he called and he said, We're all set for the Save America Act.
00:23:25.000He was pushing the Save America Act like crazy.
00:23:42.000So Axios is reporting a person who spoke with Graham shortly afterwards said that the senator complained that he was feeling unwell when the person urged him to seek medical attention immediately.
00:23:53.000Graham said he would do it Sunday morning after his scheduled appearance on Meet the Press.
00:24:23.000It looks like he died of hardening of the arteries.
00:24:26.000And the most common cause of death, people don't know this, especially when you're over a certain age, when doing long international flights, is some sort of cardiac death, whether it's a heart attack or, in this case, an aortic fissure or whatever.
00:24:44.000Well, it's just, yeah, if you look at his family history, his father died of, I believe, the exact same thing at the age of 69.
00:24:52.000You have the story here where if he'd gone to the hospital right away, they probably would have caught that this was happening, rushed him into surgery.
00:25:00.000He might have survived, but he downplayed it, thought it's probably no big deal.
00:26:06.000Yeah, well, again, to your point, it's semantics.
00:26:09.000There's a group of people that no matter what the evidence is, they do not believe that the person in that video was Tyler Robinson.
00:26:16.000I, based off the evidence I've seen, do believe that the person in that video is Tyler Robinson.
00:26:21.000And in that zoomed in video, like I said, you clearly see the individual, whom I believe to be Tyler Robinson, get on the roof, get in the prone position.
00:26:32.000The timestamps match exactly when we know Charlie was shot.
00:26:36.000Person gets up, individual runs and jumps off the other side of the building, just like we've all seen.
00:26:42.000The zoomed in portion is the part that makes it So damning for Tyler Robinson because you see this individual get into that prone sniper position at the exact time stamps that we know Charlie was shot.
00:26:57.000And what you're right, we're splitting semantics on this.
00:27:00.000There's a group that no matter what you show, they do not believe that was Tyler Robinson.
00:27:05.000I believe all the evidence points to Tyler Robinson.
00:27:08.000And I believe that with the DNA plus the testimonies plus the confessions, all of this, and we haven't even got to his confession to the police.
00:27:16.000We haven't even got to his parents talking about it.
00:27:19.000I think it all paints a very clear picture.
00:27:21.000And yeah, I think we have a lot of people that are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
00:27:27.000So, I mean, we can leave it there, Graham, but I just appreciate you being just very matter of fact, very down, you know, just the facts here.
00:27:35.000We don't need to go further than what the facts are, but I think what it relates is that we need to see this stuff.
00:27:45.000The public should have access to it, so there's no discussion, no argument about what's actually available when it comes to evidence.
00:27:55.000So, anyways, I'm glad that you got to see it and got to relate that to us.
00:27:58.000But, Graham, I know you've got a busy day.
00:28:00.000I'm going to let you go, but thank you for making the time calling in.
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00:31:36.000I'm elated that he's dead, overjoyed, just like he was elated at seeing countless children throughout the Middle East.
00:31:41.000But then she got called out on it because in November of 2020, she tweeted this, what kind of monster thinks gloating about dead people is ever okay?
00:31:50.000I guess apologists for ethnic cleansing.
00:31:53.000So she's just a giant hypocrite, and I'm glad that the internet called her on it.
00:31:57.000That this tweet is just, I think it's endemic of a larger societal rot.
00:32:02.000When people get on social media, they're just willing to say that.
00:32:27.000Blake, I don't know if you want to comment on any of that or if you want to sort of take us into the recent updates on Iran.
00:32:33.000Well, it just speaks to a lot, which is I think.
00:32:37.000There's been an unfortunate general trend towards greater nastiness in politics, and that includes celebrating the deaths of people who politically offend you in some way.
00:32:50.000I think it's something we should push back against because celebrating someone's death eventually turns into justifying someone's death if they were murdered in some way.
00:33:02.000It turns into justifying other hateful actions against your political opponents.
00:33:07.000That's incompatible with the type of country we want to live in.
00:33:11.000One of the reasons America is such a successful and amazing country and has been for so long is we are a country where, by and large, we don't resolve our political differences with extreme hatred, with violence, with celebrating.
00:33:26.000And that's something you do see in countries that are far less blessed than our own.
00:33:31.000But you did mention how Lindsey Graham might feel about war in general.
00:33:37.000And so we have recent developments in that.
00:33:58.000He also announces, The USA will be, from this point forward, known as, in all caps, the guardian of the Hormuz Strait.
00:34:08.000But as such, and as a matter of fairness, will be reimbursed, the president says, at A rate of 20% on all cargo shipped for any and all costs necessary to do the job of providing safety and security to this very volatile section of the world.
00:34:51.000And this is, I feel, the president trying to navigate that.
00:34:55.000He doesn't want boots on the ground in Iran.
00:34:57.000I think he realizes that would be deeply unpopular and deeply risky.
00:35:01.000But he's also aware these long term conflicts, you need to take some sort of progress towards an end.
00:35:08.000And so he's hoping that this can up pressure on Iran's economy.
00:35:12.000He's also probably hoping this is a way he can sell this as not expensive for the United States.
00:35:18.000That this is a way people have said, Why doesn't the Middle East pay more for its own defense?
00:35:23.000Why doesn't the Middle East pay more for this conflict with Iran when they're overall in the long term going to be the chief beneficiaries of it?
00:35:30.000So, when President Trump announces this, I think his hope is either we can pay for the war itself or we can put pressure on our allies in the Middle East to help us reach a permanent long term end to this.
00:35:42.000And we just have to continue to hope that President Trump has good judgment on this because I do think we saw that with the chapter leaders that there is a lot of political gain to be made from finally bringing this conflict to an end.
00:35:56.000And they thought it would be a pretty immediate gain if we were able to do that.
00:36:00.000So, just to be clear, Between China, India, Japan, and South Korea, that accounts for about 70 to 75% of the energy that flows through the Strait of Hormuz.
00:36:10.000So I think Europe gets a lot of that too.
00:36:12.000So President Trump is basically saying, we'll keep it open, but Asia, you're going to be footing the bill.
00:36:30.000And TikTok has always strived to build the kind of place that thrives on respectful connection.
00:36:35.000Where curiosity fuels connection and we can share what's on our minds and learn from each other.
00:36:40.000When ideas meet respect, good things happen.
00:36:42.000On TikTok, you can find a mechanic explaining the why behind a problem most of us wouldn't even know how to name, or a father sharing a lifetime of knowledge with his viewers, viewers who listen, discuss, and then they respond.
00:36:54.000TikTok turns connection into community through small acts of understanding.
00:36:58.000You can feel it in the comments, in the thank you from a stranger halfway across the world.
00:37:02.000TikTok is a place where respect opens the door for discussion and discussion helps us build something real.
00:37:21.000He's done actual interviews and debates with a man that has, I think, become a fascination of some on the right and larger political circles just because he's, apparently, he's been described as Putin's brain.
00:37:34.000Now, Putin loyalists will contest that and say that that's an overstatement, certainly.
00:37:39.000But nevertheless, he's become an important flashpoint in this Eurasian cultural block.
00:37:47.000And I think it can explain a lot for us here in America as we try to understand some of the ideas that are shaping our current moment.
00:37:55.000So, Orrin McIntyre, welcome back to the show, my friend.
00:38:12.000So, Andrew, Alexander Dukin is trying to find a way beyond liberalism.
00:38:17.000He sees us as living in a post liberal world and he wants to find a different political theory.
00:38:22.000He sees liberalism as the first political theory of modernity and then communism and fascism as the second and third political theories that attempt to address the problems of liberalism.
00:38:34.000He rejects liberalism, but he also recognizes the shortcomings of both communism and fascism.
00:38:39.000And so he does something he calls breaking the hermeneutic circle, which is saying he wants to discard some of the worst elements of fascism or Communism and see if there are any other alternative ideas that could be found inside those ideologies once we have shorn them of the worst parts of them.
00:38:56.000For him, the atheism and materialism of communism is the worst, and kind of the ethnic centering in fascism is the worst.
00:39:05.000And he's trying to find a way forward with those.
00:39:07.000Now, the problem with this is a couple different things, but ultimately, the thing you need to remember with all of Dugan's work is you have to read it in the frame of a man who is first and foremost centering his Eurasian project, the idea that the Russian Empire should have a natural dominance, it should be allowed to ascend, but the West is ultimately going to have to lose ground so that Russia and other countries can flourish.
00:39:32.000I think there is some real, genuine philosophical insights in Dugan's work.
00:39:37.000We always have to remember that you are dealing with a propagandist as you are going.
00:40:24.000Well, if you read the fourth political theory, Dugan's not really hiding the ball.
00:40:27.000He says that the West must be destroyed, that America must be destroyed.
00:40:32.000The man has no love for Anglo civilization.
00:40:34.000He sees it as something that ultimately came to dominate the world and has driven nations like Russia into some kind of artificial second place, and that they should have flourishing once they're freed from kind of this cage of Anglo domination.
00:40:49.000So, it's very clear that he's very passionate about his political project.
00:40:53.000And I think the best way to look at Dugan is perhaps to look at someone like Machiavelli.
00:40:57.000Machiavelli wrote The Prince because he was looking for a job interview and because ultimately he had a project of Italian unification.
00:41:06.000Everything he writes in that book is oriented towards that goal.
00:41:10.000That doesn't mean there aren't certain deep insights we can draw from The Prince.
00:41:13.000I have read a lot of Machiavelli and I use his work quite a bit.
00:41:16.000But we always have to remember that he is writing.
00:41:18.000In that context, and is famously known as a teacher of evil, I think we could probably at some level apply the same frame to Dugan, someone who does have deep philosophical insights, but we always have to keep what he's saying in that context of his project of kind of eventual Russian emergence after Western collapse.
00:41:37.000So, and I want to get Blake in here because this is sort of his sweet spot too.
00:41:41.000But my last question is and I, the reason I want to talk about this today, Oren, is because I think there is some confusion.
00:41:48.000If you're just like a normie American conservative, which is nothing bad, by the way, we want you.
00:41:53.000Spending most of your time raising your family, raising your kids, like volunteering at church, all those things, teaching Little League.
00:41:59.000But there is, like, if you just kind of check in on social media, like, why are certain movements seeming to happen?
00:42:06.000Why are people surprising me with their position on Russia, for example?
00:42:11.000I think, I don't want to give him too much credit, but I think he's a piece of the puzzle of why some of these ideas that he's suggesting, because the critiques of modern liberalism are valid in many respects.
00:42:23.000Us as American conservatives would share those critiques.
00:42:27.000And they can be seductive to a larger narrative or agenda that he's got.
00:43:15.000He really does see America as the great Satan.
00:43:18.000He does see the need for it to basically die in a conflagration.
00:43:22.000He often uses these apocalyptic terms that we need kind of this end times destruction of America and the West to ultimately allow these other nations to flourish.
00:43:33.000A lot of times, even though Dugan will note the differences between civilizations, He blames the natural outcomes of their decisions on the West, as if we are somehow singularly responsible for the bad decisions and bad outcomes of other people's way of being.
00:43:48.000And so I think it's just important to remember that while those conversations can be important, while that criticism can be valid, because he is drawing from older thinkers that I think do have solid points, ultimately, I think he's coming to a very dangerous conclusion, one which is deeply anti American.
00:44:05.000We can address the issues of modernity without burning down.
00:44:13.000Well, Oren, what stands out to me is, as you said, he's super anti American.
00:44:17.000So it stands out to me that some Americans, they like to fixate on this guy.
00:44:22.000I think they like to find philosophers who are aggressively outside America's orbit.
00:44:27.000And yet at the same time, he seems to me like someone, for someone who's supposedly outside America, he's totally guided to me by currents that are in Western, in American, in our.
00:44:41.000Ideological stuff, and he just takes the position of America is terrible using the justifications they provide.
00:44:48.000This is one, and we can get into this in the next segment.
00:44:51.000He just tweeted this the other day The very concept of success is deeply immoral.
00:44:56.000If you are successful, the other is a loser.
00:45:50.000I think that, again, it's very attractive to people because a lot of Dugan's stuff does attack that decadence of modernity.
00:46:00.000It does have realistic and reasonable criticisms of certain aspects of modern society, but his prescriptions can often be very terrible, as we see here.
00:46:12.000One of the things that Dugan does is take the idea from Martin Heidegger of Dasein.
00:46:17.000And applied to individual civilizations.
00:46:20.000And he believes that all of these individual civilizational da signs are the same and have the same value and the same worth, that we can't judge each other because we do not have each other's experiences.
00:46:31.000This is, if it sounds like postmodernism to people, in many ways it is.
00:46:35.000It's a kind of a synthesis of traditionalism and postmodernism, which I think, again, lures a lot of people in because they hear the traditionalism, they see the critiques, they feel that to be correct.
00:46:45.000But then ultimately they get led down some of these sideways paths that are.
00:46:50.000Ultimately, very influenced by things like critical theory.
00:46:52.000If you read the fourth political theory, it has chapters on why basically you need to abolish the differences between genders and why you can't, you know, you have to abolish the evils of racism across the world.
00:47:04.000So these are in the fourth political theory.
00:47:19.000The far west Christianity, Protestantism, is more modern than simply Western Christianity, which he labels as Catholicism.
00:47:27.000The West is the thrash of history, the black hole in the bottom of reality.
00:47:35.000I also have to just point out here that his whole worldview is putting sort of philosopher kings, guys like him, at the very top of the hierarchy in a civilization, this multipolar civilizational world that he's advocating for with Eurasia as a singular block.
00:47:53.000He would be the ruler of said civilization.
00:47:55.000So that's something to always keep in mind.
00:47:58.000You've met this guy, or at least interviewed him.
00:48:01.000I don't know if it was over Zoom or something, right?
00:48:10.000Was he able to answer criticisms of his philosophy, whether well or not?
00:48:16.000So, interestingly, I have both interviewed him, and then I was able to arrange a debate between him and another philosopher by the name of Nick Land.
00:48:22.000People who are on Twitter have probably seen him post pretty regularly.
00:48:27.000But it was a very interesting discussion.
00:48:29.000I think, again, I don't think Dugan is stupid.
00:48:32.000I think it's a bad idea to underestimate your enemy on this one.
00:48:39.000However, when he was in that debate between himself and Nick Land, it was very interesting because Nick Land is in many ways a hyper Anglo philosopher.
00:48:48.000He is extremely interested in the West and believes in the mission of the West and perhaps a way that many people are not as serious when it comes to kind of the hyper modern understanding of the West as where Dugan was very much an Eastern traditionalist.
00:49:00.000And so there, The clashing between the two was very interesting.
00:49:03.000I found that while Dugan was intelligent and was able to defend many of his positions, it did seem like Land was operating at a higher level, that ultimately there were several times where he kind of ran into a barrier.
00:49:14.000And I think that Land very much got the best of him.
00:49:17.000I did not debate him directly because I think Nick Land is a much more intelligent guy who can bring those criticisms and those questions far more sharply than I can.
00:49:25.000But if people want to catch that, it is an absolutely fascinating discussion.
00:49:29.000And I think it will help you understand a little bit of.
00:49:32.000Where the differences are between these two worldviews.
00:49:35.000So, Oren, I don't know that too many of our listeners are going to race out and read this guy's books, but so that they can understand him better, maybe what's a good takeaway if you encounter a podcaster who's into this, an ex poster who's into this, just someone in real life who's an enthusiast for Dugan, who's American, this guy who wants to basically destroy America, what's it maybe indicate about them, for lack of a better word?
00:50:04.000Well, I think that, again, the fact that there are truths in Dugan's work does make it attractive to people.
00:50:10.000I don't think it's ridiculous to find insights there.
00:50:12.000I have personally found insights in Dugan's work that are helpful.
00:50:16.000But ultimately, we have to remember, again, that the frame is always one of, you know, the Western imperialism is evil.
00:50:27.000And you ultimately cannot side with that.
00:50:29.000Just because someone has some insights into something important doesn't mean that they're right.
00:50:34.000You know, Karl Marx was right that there were some issues with capitalism that.
00:50:38.000The alienation of labor ultimately does cause certain impacts to people that are negative.
00:50:43.000However, his solution is horrific and killed hundreds of millions of people and absolutely has to be rejected.
00:50:50.000And I would see Dugan very much as a similar light.
00:50:53.000It's a guy who has certain insights, and you can find those insights outside of Dugan.
00:50:58.000Remember, most of his stuff is synthesizing other people's work.
00:51:01.000So there are plenty of thinkers he's drawing from that you can look at and understand without necessarily having to go to Dugan.
00:51:07.000And even if you do read Dugan, you should always remember that he's ultimately an enemy of your civilization.
00:51:12.000And no matter what, no matter what critiques he has that might have some important insight, ultimately you can never ever side with the solutions that the man has.
00:51:22.000Because they are directly aimed at destroying your own civilization.
00:51:25.000You should never become a traitor to your own civilization, even if there are some problems with it.
00:51:31.000We should be trying to renew our civilization, not destroy it.
00:51:35.000Yeah, and our critiques are more pointed at radical progressivism, radical egalitarianism, where everybody gets the same outcome in life.
00:54:01.000I really wanted to be in the courthouse on a day where a lot of the Information was coming out that the public wouldn't be able to see because I knew there would be bad actors inside the courtroom that day that were trying to lie.
00:54:11.000Fortunately, I was able to be there on Thursday, which is when a massive portion of the evidence was coming out.
00:54:16.000Some of that evidence, as we know, and I'm sure you've talked about, was leaked to the public.
00:54:20.000And when I say leaked, it was a mistake that happened in the courtroom.
00:54:23.000So I know you guys have seen a lot of that.
00:54:24.000But beyond what was actually shown in the courtroom that day, I was able to see the emotions on people's faces.
00:54:30.000I was able to see, frankly, a human side of the defense and the Tyler Robinson side that I didn't realize.
00:54:36.000I've always been a strong defender of.
00:54:40.000I've been a strong defender of Erica Kirk and all of you guys, but what I didn't realize was that at no point did the Tyler Robinson family, which was sat directly in front of me, by the way, look defiant against the prosecution, look angry.
00:54:53.000They were simply, and I could see it in their eyes because I stared into their eyes, they were sad at seeing what Tyler Robinson had done.
00:55:00.000And looking at Tyler Robinson, he was completely stone cold.
00:55:03.000He did not move a muscle the entire time that I was there.
00:55:06.000And again, I was watching him and had a clear view of him for at least eight hours.
00:55:11.000I mean, I've talked to some reporters who were in the room.
00:55:14.000I've obviously talked to some of the team that was in the room.
00:55:16.000And it's interesting that part you're zeroing in on, which is Tyler Robinson's family.
00:55:22.000I was told a story, maybe you could confirm it, I'm not sure.
00:55:27.000But when they were recounting some of those text messages that were going back and forth, and I want to be somewhat vague just to respect the privacy of his family as well, because they're not the criminals here, right?
00:55:43.000From all accounts, did a brave thing, and it must be terrible, right?
00:55:47.000And I'm led to believe that they're probably on the conservative end of the spectrum.
00:55:51.000But when that text message was read about Gramp's gun looks like it's doing just fine or did just fine, I'm told that one of the family members that was there basically just his head hit the floor because obviously he must have had a relationship with Grandpa.
00:56:09.000And again, I'm sorry to be vague, I'm just saying I want to be respectful of their privacy, but when that text was Was read that the head just hit the floor, just complete devastation to kind of realize that his family member and his family member's gun, somebody that probably had a relationship with, was used to kill somebody of such import, a legend of American, a conservative American, Charlie Kirk.
00:56:38.000I that was probably the most emotional part of the entire day was when they read that specific text that you just referenced.
00:56:44.000And like I said, I had a perfect view of the entire Robinson family.
00:56:48.000And I won't say who it is either to be respectful to them, but this individual hung their head at that point and it was hung pretty much the entire time after that.
00:56:57.000In fact, towards the end, I think maybe the last two or three hours, they didn't come back inside the courtroom.
00:58:04.000But it's been increased over the last few months as I've continued to push back harder and harder against the conspiracy crap that Baron Coleman and Candace Owens and the likes are spreading.
00:58:13.000And so that kind of reached ahead this week.
00:58:16.000Again, I'm used to getting those messages online, but it was a little different this week on Friday, right before I was going to go to this event at UVU.
00:58:25.000Again, in the same place that Charlie Kirk was murdered, I received a call actually on my personal cell phone from someone who was impersonating a police officer.
00:59:04.000And, um, I'm sorry that you had to experience that just for standing up for what you believe in, standing up for facts and evidence, which is something that unfortunately in the online space so often gets cast aside.
00:59:19.000Why did you feel so moved to be so vocal from early on?
00:59:26.000And I don't mean to say that in any sort of comparison way, but all the way back in September, I started seeing conspiracies come out and it really ticked me off.
00:59:34.000And if you look at, Any of my social media or my YouTube channel, you know, that really has been my work for the last 10 months is trying to debunk these theories.
00:59:42.000I think part of the reason for me, and I can't really claim any credit for this, is that I live a few minutes away from UVU and I grew up in Provo, Utah.
00:59:49.000And I know literally over 100 people who are at this event with Charlie.
00:59:54.000In fact, I myself wanted to be at the event that day and wasn't able to because I had a doctor's appointment.
01:00:00.000And so it being close to home is what has particularly enraged me, frankly, with the conspiracy.
01:00:06.000Conspiracy theories, just knowing individuals that Candace Owens and others have brought up, who I know for a fact that she is lying about, that really ticked me off.
01:00:15.000On another personal note, when I was 18 years old, I lost my father in a work accident.
01:00:26.000I have a fierce loyalty to widows and feel that, you know, I've just never seen this attack on someone.
01:00:33.000And I know how hard it was for my mother to lose her husband.
01:00:36.000And so to see someone lose their husband.
01:00:38.000And then be viciously attacked and not supported has really just made me emotional and made me want to be a strong defender of Erica as well as the truth.
01:00:48.000And genuinely, what was it like around the courthouse, Joshua?
01:00:54.000Because I've seen you interacting with some of these other people that were more on the conspiratorial side of things and pushing alternative theories, right?
01:01:04.000What was it like around the courthouse?
01:01:33.000You know, it was either people there to support Erica Kirk or the mainstream media, and that was great.
01:01:38.000But as time went on, and when I was there on Thursday all day, There were more and more Candace Owens fans kind of coming out of the woodworks.
01:01:45.000I would say it was mostly respectful outside, but I will say in order to get in the courthouse on Thursday, I had to camp out for.
01:01:52.000So I actually had someone go for me at 9 p.m. the previous day and get a spot.
01:01:58.000And then I showed up at 2 a.m. the morning of Thursday.
01:02:01.000And when I got there, there was bickering and these people were essentially trying to debate other people in line with random conspiracy theories.
01:02:10.000Of course, they didn't want to engage in any of the facts that had been presented by the prosecution.
01:02:14.000Instead, they brought up ancillary crazy things that had nothing to do with the actual case.
01:02:40.000As it got closer towards the day around six o'clock, the police force was very strong, very present.
01:02:47.000The head of security came out, told everyone, you know, we're doing this by the book.
01:02:52.000If you want to do any shenanigans, you're immediately off the premises.
01:02:55.000And then what really stunned me, frankly, was in the courthouse, in the courtroom itself, I think there were eight police officers kind of staring us down at any time.
01:03:04.000And to be honest, I appreciated it because as someone who is now a public figure and who is getting these death threats, it was nice to be able to be in that setting and feel safe and feel like I could actually watch the evidence being presented without something crazy going down.
01:03:17.000Joshua, I was just a few questions that I think it's good to build upon this because you faced targeting people trying to dox you who seem to be coming from this side of the issue.
01:03:30.000And especially the doxing part, that stood out to me.
01:04:13.000I used to get more death threats from the left, and it feels like now I'm getting it more from the far right.
01:04:18.000It seems to me that these people are more far right isolationists, but I think for the most part, it's actually not as political as we think it is.
01:04:25.000I think the far left is always going to dox, they're always going to send the death threats.
01:04:28.000But I think for this case specifically, it's so much more a cult of personality for them.
01:04:33.000It's more about the political commentators and the podcasters that they're following.
01:04:39.000Epidemic, frankly, you know, I was watching Charlie Kirk just now in the commercial break, and he had so much timeless wisdom.
01:04:45.000He's speaking in this clip I just watched to young women talking about what is going to give them fulfillment, what's going to make them satisfied in life.
01:04:54.000And unfortunately, there are so many women, specifically right now, but still men as well, but I'm seeing it more from women that are not pursuing the things that give them life and satisfaction and happiness.
01:05:05.000And so instead, they're turning to things like crazy podcasters who give them conspiracy theories.
01:05:10.000And the reality is, all of us, Love a good story.
01:05:13.000We love interesting things to look into.
01:05:15.000And so, unfortunately, that can really take a part of the worst parts of us as humans.
01:05:20.000And I think that's what's happened for a lot of these people.
01:05:21.000I don't even really know if it's a left or right wing kind of thing.
01:05:27.000I think this is actually an important point because I don't ascribe any of this movement or whatever it is you want to call it, a social media scene, as right coded at all, as conservative at all.
01:05:39.000It actually feels very left coded, to Blake's point.
01:05:42.000I mean, I think the nickname he applied is.
01:05:45.000Because so much of what we're seeing, you know, collective guilt for all Jewish people, right?
01:05:50.000Just completely going like every answer.
01:05:54.000It's like a Sunday school kid where every answer is Jesus.
01:05:57.000You know, it's like every answer is Israel or Jews.
01:06:00.000Andrew, I'd be really interested if there was a way we could dissect this, for example, whether a lot of these people maybe they were originally apolitical or somewhat to the left, they identified as moving to the right, maybe during COVID, as an example, where that realigned a lot of people politically.
01:06:17.000I'd be really interested if a lot of the people who are getting involved in this had that arc of starting on the left, moving to the right.
01:06:25.000They maybe still identify as on the right, but these tendencies are resurfacing in some way.
01:06:31.000I think it'd be so interesting to unpack because this phenomenon is so alien to anything I've seen come out of the right anytime in the past 20 years.
01:06:42.000There's been, sometimes they've gotten into theories, but the very personal aspect of it, of really going after Erica, going after Turning Point, going after people Charlie knew, doxing them, it's just, it's so left coded to me.
01:06:55.000It just, I don't know where they're learning these habits from.
01:06:59.000Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking of Bell Ayers and, you know, the idea of going after your political opponents, personalizing it.
01:07:08.000I'm thinking of the tactics where you use personal insults, where you personalize the attacks, and then you kind of make a sport out of terrorizing and harassing.
01:07:23.000That does seem to be a left wing tactic that we're seeing play out from right coded accounts.
01:07:30.000But I think to your point, Blake, they're probably a lot of these people have been sojourners on the political journeys and have been shapeshifters, and they're returning to their neutral position, their default position.
01:07:56.000What's the overall environment like in the area around where the shooting happened?
01:08:03.000Is there a high risk that if you just selected 12 random registered voters from Utah County, that will get someone who would just be very committed to, I'm going to vote for an acquittal no matter what, because I just will never, ever believe that Tyler Robinson did this?
01:08:23.000It's something that's constantly in my mind, especially over the last seven days.
01:08:27.000I think the good news is that most people, if you ask them, do you know, like, have you looked into this a ton?
01:08:34.000Most of them are going to say, Oh, I've heard these weird things about it online because unfortunately, Candace Owens has done a fantastic job of propagandizing all of this.
01:08:42.000But the good news is, most people, to be honest with you, really don't know anything about this.
01:08:47.000And if they don't know anything about it, 100% the prosecution is going to do a fantastic job convincing them.
01:08:53.000So I think that needs to be the strategy from the prosecution and picking the jury they want people who really know as little as possible because it's just such a slam dunk.
01:09:03.000I mean, the preliminary hearing alone was enough evidence to really.
01:10:22.000I mean, there's a part of me, and this is totally a selfish human part of me, that is seeing all of the tides turning.
01:10:27.000And I'm like, well, dang, it would have been really awesome if you guys had joined in in September when some of us actually just took a stand and had the courage to do that.
01:10:36.000At the end of the day, it's good that the tides are turning 100%, both with normal, average people, it's turning, but also you're seeing it all over X.
01:10:44.000I think Candace and her cult are pretty much done for.
01:10:47.000Joshua Carr, thank you for being brave and for being brave early.