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00:03:24.000We are living through in a post-Christian era.
00:03:27.000But I first want to talk about your book because your book is really a precursor to that, which is in some ways they've weakened Christianity in the West by making Jesus seem like a social justice warrior, Marxist, not the savior of the world.
00:03:43.000Yeah, it's his counter reading of scripture.
00:03:45.000You know, a lot of times it's called a counter myth, which even that statement is deceptive because it's implying that the first reading of scripture or that scripture itself is myth to start with.
00:03:54.000And so we have to present kind of this alternative Jesus, that he is, you know, this great social justice warrior rather than the savior of the world, that he's an immigrant, that he, you know, is sort of this barefoot hippie that loves everybody, and he's pro-socialism, he's pro-trans.
00:04:42.000We can look at the first several hundred years of Christianity and they exist.
00:04:46.000But really at this level that we're talking about, it's the 1700s.
00:04:50.000It's that post-Enlightenment period where we start seeing in Germany specifically the birth of what was known as these Jesus biographies.
00:04:57.000And that becomes later tied to the quest for the historical Jesus.
00:05:01.000And so it is essentially now that we're in this age of enlightenment and reason and rational thought and scientific method that we recognize now that the miracles of the Bible, that these can't be true.
00:05:14.000And so there was work that theologians were doing, specifically German theologians, to start rewriting the accounts of Christ to make sense of these miracles, basically to excuse them away and to make Jesus more terrestrial.
00:05:29.000He was this great champion of the people rather than the savior of all.
00:05:35.000And like the activist for the underclass, basically.
00:05:44.000I mean, you had people that say he was part of a Senian cult and that the way he fed the 5,000 was that he had a group of monks baking bread behind a rock behind him as he's dressing the 5,000.
00:05:56.000They're passing bread secretly to him that he's multiplying.
00:05:58.000These ridiculous kind of ideas that were out there.
00:06:00.000And most of those were criticized and kind of called out.
00:06:02.000But as theological thought went on, you had eventually it was Albert Schweitzer that really wrote kind of the definitive work that established what we know is this quest for the historical Jesus.
00:06:13.000And in many ways, that's kind of what broke the Harvards and the Yales and the Princetons as being theological institutions.
00:06:18.000It was introduction of this social gospel, this social Jesus rather than a spiritual faith.
00:06:25.000And so we started seeing really a rewriting of scripture, this revision as history that has affected people the way they think about Jesus even today.
00:06:34.000And yeah, we see that manifest in those ridiculous advertisements, the He Gets Us, right?
00:06:40.000Which is far more focused on the man than on the divine of Christ's nature, which again, both are equally interesting for us, but we don't worship Christ because he came as a man.
00:06:51.000We worship him because he is Lord and King.
00:06:54.000I followed those fairly closely, and they have some interesting kind of diverse names that are part of that whole creative package that went into that.
00:07:02.000And some of those names are more concerning than others, right?
00:07:05.000And by no means am I an expert on that, but the thing that I've seen with it is what they're calling it is sort of this pre-evangelism.
00:07:11.000That, you know, we're not trying to share the gospel through these because there's no way you could watch these and get saved.
00:07:15.000You couldn't watch these and see somebody, you know, kind of, you know, a priest washing somebody's feet and come to any sort of saving knowledge of the cross or anything like that.
00:07:24.000There's no gospel presentation in them.
00:07:27.000It's very sort of what feels like pro-pro-socialist, pro-illegal immigrant, you know, all of those things.
00:07:35.000But they're calling it pre-evangelism.
00:07:36.000But I don't see anything in scripture that calls us to do what is called pre-evangelism, right?
00:08:02.000Yeah, I was like, I think you guys are making a huge mistake.
00:08:05.000But that's this is what they do, right?
00:08:06.000The perfect example, because and I think it's so important because most people, you know, I think that are out there, the average Christian doesn't know how media works.
00:08:13.000And so if you have some radical new concept that you want to put out there, what's the best way to get it to be accepted?
00:08:18.000Is to find other Orthodox groups that will sign off on it and go, well, see, it's not this radical.
00:08:22.000You know, we have groups like Turning Point and Charlie have signed off on it.
00:08:25.000And so now all of a sudden you're giving, you know, validity to this slow sort of way of sign off on it.
00:08:59.000And look, this should be an obvious, right?
00:09:01.000The God who made me, of course, gets me.
00:09:04.000He knows me because he thought of me, he formed me.
00:09:08.000But the question is, do I understand him?
00:09:10.000Am I willing to die to myself and embrace him?
00:09:13.000Am I willing to let go of kind of that pride and that ego?
00:09:15.000To transform and to be conformed into his image.
00:09:18.000You know, I present it like this a lot of times: that progressivism and Christianity, they have one thing in common, and that is progress, right?
00:09:27.000For the progressive, it's progress for progress's sake.
00:09:29.000There's no destination in mind, it's just to basically put that dialectic to work and to transform the next generation into something further along than what the previous generation was.
00:09:39.000And there's no end point ever in mind.
00:09:42.000But for Christianity, we have a definitive endpoint, and that is to be conformed to the image of Christ.
00:09:47.000And we are moving towards, so we're not against progress.
00:09:49.000We are for progress, but we're for progress to a specific destination and that is Christ.
00:10:25.000Going to your woke Jesus point, it seems as if the Marxists and the Hegelians took the Christian view of history and they applied it to their view.
00:10:35.000So they, because Christianity was the first to say there was the bear sheet in the beginning, you know, God created the heavens, the world, and the whole world, you know, was null and void.
00:10:43.000And then there is Jesus on his throne and life ever after.
00:10:58.000You know, look, when you look at this, I think that it's important to recognize that so many of these ideas, whether it's Hegelian thought or Marxist, you know, et cetera, paganism in general, it's a parasite.
00:11:08.000And it's attaching itself to Christianity because Christianity is a really good vehicle, but it's actually not a great long-term host for these things because the very absoluteness of God's word stands against some of those ideas.
00:11:26.000If the disciples, if the converts will then preach it as such, as a hot gospel, if you live up to the absoluteness of the standard, could you then argue that that absoluteness actually creates an immune system against the affection?
00:12:00.000And I actually think, from a political standpoint, the immune system of America is truth and justice.
00:12:05.000So when you no longer have truth and justice, your immune system is suppressed and you allow foreign invaders to take over essentially the body.
00:12:21.000And, you know, really what I wanted to do was put together a definitive history of wokeism in specifically its integration or intersection with the church and Christianity.
00:12:32.000Because, you know, of course, there's a secular wokeism that we see that really, you know, it doesn't really have that much of an intersection in the church.
00:12:39.000Other than they hate Christianity and they hate everything that it stands for.
00:12:42.000But there is this version, this kind of strand of wokeism that I believe really started in the church.
00:12:47.000I think that wokeism has a genesis in religion.
00:12:49.000It's a religious structure, first of all.
00:12:52.000And it started as this sort of parasitical thought or alternative reading of scripture within Christianity.
00:12:59.000And right from the beginning, Jesus was used as a propaganda figure.
00:13:03.000And so I go through in the book, I go through what this known is the quest for the historical Jesus.
00:13:08.000I take that into how the social gospel and things interacted with the form of formation of liberation theology, which is Marxism and Catholicism within the Catholic Church.
00:13:18.000And of course, we see that jump to the United States in the form of black liberation theology with James Cohn.
00:13:24.000I spent a lot of time reading Cohn's work.
00:13:26.000And it's some pretty disturbing stuff when you think specifically this is a minister who's writing these words.
00:13:33.000Things like, you know, we have to, you know, throwing a Molotov cocktail on Whitey's storefront isn't the best way to do God's work, but somebody has to start someplace.
00:13:40.000You know, these statements like this that he makes that are really radicalized.
00:13:50.000And so then, of course, I follow that into kind of the modern, really more atheistic form of black liberation theology, which is what we know as CRT.
00:14:00.000I don't think we would have CRT without James Cohn.
00:14:03.000He really kind of opened up a door for a lot of those ideas and Derek Bell and others to be able to generate that.
00:14:10.000And then, of course, the modern implications, how I have a whole theology of COVID, how we approach this.
00:14:15.000And I really, you know, a lot of times when I write, I have a message that I want to get out there about the dangers of this progressive and woke thought.
00:14:22.000But there's also a message for the church in there.
00:14:35.000So, first of all, you have, you know, if we look at after the death of George Floyd, right, all of the protests and the burning of cities and all the things, these demonstrations that were happening, there's mantras.
00:14:48.000You know, you have to say certain phraseology.
00:15:16.000It has all the trappings of a religion.
00:15:18.000And it's really kind of in that Marxist framework of a man-centric religion.
00:15:24.000They flipped the cross upside down and they put man at the top.
00:15:28.000They really put George Floyd at the top of it in that case, as the great savior.
00:15:32.000And the idea of wokeism, or if we want to just call it whatever that filler term is, these are counterfeit religions that are not necessarily anything new.
00:15:44.000We should call them pagan because that's really what they are.
00:15:48.000And involved in almost every pagan belief is child sacrifice.
00:17:57.000Yeah, I mean, specifically in Rome, which is a period of time that I really enjoy reading about and reading regional documents from, is that Christians were known as atheists during that period because they didn't believe in the pantheon effect.
00:18:08.000They didn't adopt sort of this Olympic structure or Hellenistic structure of deities.
00:18:14.000And even if they, you know, for the Roman, just to accept Jesus as one of many wasn't a big deal.
00:18:20.000But for the Christian, that was obviously an issue.
00:18:22.000And this is where a lot of persecutions, many of the persecutions in Rome, I think that we get a wrong idea that Romans were just constantly trying to kill Christians.
00:18:29.000It wasn't necessarily the case, but they were creating a lot of standard kind of tests of religion that you had to demonstrate because they believed so much in the favor of this pantheon and these local deities that you had to sacrifice to them and worship them.
00:18:43.000And Christians could not obviously participate in that because to do so would be idol worship.
00:18:51.000And so it wasn't that they were necessarily targeting Christians, but Christians got brought into this because Rome didn't understand their faith very well, obviously, at the beginning.
00:19:00.000But they were called atheists because they wouldn't worship all these other gods.
00:19:03.000And this is where you have the great early Christians like Justin Martyr and others in Jerome that wrote these great apologies, these defenses of the Christian faith, showing that Christianity is actually the thing that brings the best good into the world and that it is the answer for all these injustices that are out there.
00:19:20.000And that's how it won over the Western world.
00:19:22.000The problem is now that wokeism is rewriting that.
00:19:24.000It's providing this new kind of revisionist history that is tearing down those arguments.
00:19:29.000And most Christians are not actually capable and qualified to make a strong stance about their faith.
00:19:35.000And this is why it's so important that we get in the word, right?
00:19:37.000That we are reading it, that we're knowing it, so that we can defend our faith in those ways.
00:19:41.000And so when people say they are an atheist, again, I think atheism is like a psyop from Satan.
00:20:02.000It might be the divine, the spirit, some sort of esoteric framework that they have.
00:20:09.000And what we're seeing right now, if you go on maybe an app like TikTok or Instagram or whatever, and you search modern paganism, you are going to get some of the craziest videos that you've ever seen of people dressed up, performing Hellenistic rituals, trying to go after the repeat and revitalize faith of the Druids and different things.
00:21:02.000It's what happened again at the Tower of Babel.
00:21:04.000It is this continuous rebellion that man becomes obsessed with to go against our Creator.
00:21:10.000And that really is the tension point here.
00:21:12.000The spiritual aspect of this cannot be mistaken, which is there's an enemy who comes to lie, steal, cheat, and destroy.
00:21:20.000And all these counterfeit ways are ways to try to keep distance from our Creator.
00:21:24.000Yeah, and look, this is an interesting thing.
00:21:25.000And I don't know if this is going to be very popular for everybody, but as the church has expanded and really become more of kind of Christian business in many industries, the church, look, it's obviously without a doubt, it's the most humanitarian.
00:21:39.000It gives more in humanitarian aid than any other organization.
00:21:41.000I mean, Christians are really champions of that.
00:21:44.000But to some degree, I think some of that has done us a disservice.
00:21:46.000And here's what I mean by that: is that I believe that one of the benefits of actually being part of the church was the benefit of community.
00:21:53.000And we have sort of created this world where everybody gets the benefit of Christian community, whether or not they belong to Christ or not, or whether they belong to the church.
00:22:02.000It's sort of like having intimacy before you're married.
00:22:07.000What reason is it for the guy to get married at that point?
00:22:09.000And I think we have people out there that are receiving the benefits of Christianity without actually having that real draw to be led into an intimate relationship, a personal relationship with Jesus.
00:22:20.000And I think it pushes some, I think it delays that for some people.
00:22:24.000Yeah, and they're not, I don't know if they're actually born again.
00:22:27.000So the church is largely indifferent to this still.
00:22:37.000You know, we've started an organization, and you guys have been incredible to work with us at Turning Point Faith as well, called the American Pastor Project.
00:22:44.000And it's really an initiative within our organization, the Influence Network.
00:22:48.000And we have a call out to pastors where they would sign a statement at AmericanPastorProject.org, and they would take a stand against wokeism, basically say that I'm going to preach a historical Christianity that's based on the Bible, and I'm going to stand against wokeism at my local church.
00:23:04.000I know you guys have thousands of pastors you work with at Turning Point Faith.
00:23:07.000And it's incredible to see those that are willing to take that stand.
00:23:09.000But there are still way too many out there, as you know, that are not willing to stand up, that do really, they're not preaching the full counsel of the word of God.
00:23:18.000They're shrinking back on these issues because they're afraid of losing their people.
00:23:21.000I've lost 50% of my church in 2015 and 2016.
00:26:03.000So it's an error because there are specific things that are happening in our world and being presented that are cataclysmically against scripture, right?
00:26:10.000They're completely antithetical to scripture.
00:26:12.000So I was talking to a Catholic priest actually about this, and I said, you know, where are you at on the whole Republican and Democrat thing?
00:26:18.000And he goes, look, he goes, I don't think either party is perfect.
00:26:21.000But he says, I have to commit nine sins, according to the Catholic Church, to sign a statement to support the Democratic Party.
00:26:27.000And I thought that was such a great position.
00:26:29.000You know, the stance on abortion, the stance on, you know, really personal responsibility with all the socialism and entitlement programs that are there, complete just ignoring of sovereign borders and nations, the treatment towards Israel, all this stuff, all the transit, all the harming children.
00:26:53.000Preaching the whole council of the Word of God.
00:26:55.000I think the first time that we connected in person was at your pastor's conference, you guys did.
00:26:59.000And one of the things I shared there was: look, the same way that God comes to Eve and says, who told you you were naked?
00:27:04.000You know, to Adam and Eve in the garden, I think that pastors, we need to hear the Lord say to us, who told you these things were political?
00:27:10.000Who told you that abortion was political?
00:27:11.000Who told you that open borders is political?
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00:29:31.000So I think the job of the pastor, first and foremost, you know, we see this in Ephesians 4: it's to train up God's people for works of service, right?
00:29:37.000But before we get to that, that sort of job description is, and let me back up.
00:29:42.000I would say the first job of a pastor is to protect their own anointing.
00:29:45.000It is, and what I mean by that is that they have to protect their heart and to ensure that they stay connected to the Lord.
00:30:03.000I have had, you know, you have seasons, right, where you go, man, it's been a couple weeks since I really sat down and did this, other than to do message prep, right?
00:30:10.000But look, you have to develop that discipline.
00:30:12.000You have to go, I'm in the word on a regular basis.
00:30:15.000I'm not a professional athlete and saying I haven't, you know, haven't run a 40 and watched film.
00:30:27.000Pastors expected to be, you know, travel agents and counselors and attorneys for people and all these things that they, you know, get pushed to be.
00:30:34.000And I think that, you know, it's easy to lose sight, but you have to protect that first and foremost.
00:30:38.000The second thing that I think is missing in the church, and this, this, I'm sure there's going to be some people who would want to debate me on this, but in Ephesians 4, before you see this mission of to train up God's people for works of service, it's not specifically the pastor only that's doing that.
00:30:50.000It's what I would call the fourfold or the five-fold ministry.
00:30:53.000We see apostle, prophet, pastor, teacher, evangelist.
00:30:56.000Now, I'm not going to sit here and debate whether or not there's apostles today that we're not going to use your show for that platform, right?
00:31:01.000Unless you invite me back specifically on that topic, I won't do that to you.
00:31:29.000It speaks truth into areas that are need to have those things.
00:31:34.000So many people that call themselves pastors are truly only doing the pastor work.
00:31:38.000They're shepherding the sheep or they're teaching, but they're not willing to do the apostolic job of dividing doctrine and setting the record straight on what does scripture say and what does it not say.
00:31:48.000They're not willing to do that prophetic job of really calling out things, you know, and being that voice that maybe somebody doesn't necessarily want to hear, but it needs to be said.
00:31:55.000And we have watered down the church to one job only, and that is the pastoral, when in fact it is supposed to have all of these functions.
00:32:02.000And again, I'm not going to say offices, but all of these attributes at minimum present.
00:32:07.000And I think that that's something, regardless if you're coming from a Reform background or Catholic background or evangelical background, I think that we should be able to embrace that the attributes of those things should be present in the body of Christ today.
00:32:41.000It is that we have so many people that are kind of that Gideon in the wine press, you know, that are hiding that they're afraid of they're going to say something to set you off and trigger their audience.
00:32:49.000And look, I'm more concerned about ignoring truth and having to face the Lord than I am about saying truth and having to face my people.
00:32:59.000And in fact, I think loving them is speaking truth to them.
00:33:02.000So I want to get into now just current events here.
00:33:08.000Your opinion on this upcoming election, Donald Trump v. Biden versus all of this, as someone who loves the word, who loves the Bible, who loves liberty, how do you plan to vote?
00:33:40.000My bank account was probably doing a little better even than it is right now.
00:33:43.000And there were many, you know, many, many, many reasons to vote for him.
00:33:47.000And you've done a great job addressing some of those over the years.
00:33:50.000He has also been the most pro-Christian president, I think, that we've ever had.
00:33:54.000And, you know, repealing the Johnson Amendment from day one, you know, being able to, first Christian president I care first president I can ever remember who was speaking about persecuted Christians and actually addressing that.
00:34:05.000I can't remember any other president ever addressing persecuted Christians the way that he did.
00:34:17.000But do I think he has a handle on the tyranny that we're facing today as a nation?
00:34:22.000Do I think he has a handle on what's going on in the world and the way in which elites are trying to use power to really control the masses?
00:35:15.000And look, I mean, to some degree, I think that she's got a little bit of a prophetic statement because I do believe that Americans are going to choose speaking through Dr. Jill Biden.
00:35:24.000He's spoken through donkeys before, right?
00:36:24.000Should they prioritize his behavior or his actions and policies?
00:36:29.000So, you know, statements like that actually, to some degree, are some evidence that we have, in fact, lived in historically a Christian nation, right?
00:36:38.000Because there's an assumption that a candidate is actually going to hold to Christian values, right?
00:36:42.000So we have people that, I mean, that in of itself kind of gives some validity to that.
00:36:46.000And so we have to, you know, come to terms.
00:36:48.000Let's just set aside Donald Trump's faith for a second.
00:37:08.000And the world is blowing up now, right?
00:37:09.000So we know that those things are hollowed arguments.
00:37:11.000But when we look at these other things, the reality is that there might come a time in America's history, I pray it doesn't, where we don't have any sort of Christian choice on the ballot.
00:37:20.000And so how are we going to handle that then?
00:37:22.000You know, are we able to go through and say, is one better than another?
00:37:27.000Is one Caesar better than another Caesar in this regard?
00:37:30.000And I think the answer absolutely is yes.
00:37:32.000And look, to have a president that at all identifies and supports Christian values, that continues to honor God, continues to honor Jesus, continues to honor pastors and prayer.
00:37:44.000And, you know, we're actually talking with his people right now about the possibility of trying to get him on the American Pastor Project for one of our calls.
00:37:50.000And I believe that pastors need to hear from President Trump on these issues.
00:37:54.000We need to hear from any world leader on these issues that are facing the church.
00:37:58.000So they are aware of our concerns and that we also have a chance to impact them and influence them as well as they are fighting for all of our behalf.
00:38:23.000And the question is, can we get enough Christians to prioritize the good, the true, the beautiful, the nation, liberty, self-government over their, I don't know, their hesitancy, their potential issues of Donald Trump's behavior.
00:38:41.000I also just, I have very little patience for it when it just comes to the fundamental life or death type issues.
00:38:48.000Donald Trump is all that stands between a pagan regime basically permanently engulfing the country.
00:38:54.000But look, so, I mean, this is what a lot of people aren't aware of.
00:38:56.000How much of Christian music, how much of Christian universities, how much of Christian publications have been infiltrated by leftist ideology already, and that they are pushing this.
00:39:05.000And so the Christians that are out there that aren't as engaged as you or I, they're getting a subscription to Christianity Today and these other publications that are essentially being used as propaganda centers for a lot of these ideas.
00:39:16.000And look, there's good people with all these institutions and publications, but I think as a whole, a lot of them have been impacted very negatively.
00:39:25.000My previous book, The Christian Left, goes into all of that.
00:39:29.000And so it's no surprise we're where we are today because millions of dollars have been spent trying to convince Christians of this very idea to prevent them from voting for figures like this.
00:39:40.000Remember as a kid, your parents and grandparents making you try all the vegetables on your plate or when they coaxed you to eat fruit instead of sweets?
00:39:46.000That's because they knew what was good for you.
00:39:49.000And it's truer today than ever before.
00:39:51.000You need to eat your fruits and veggies.
00:39:52.000There's no substitute for a healthy diet, but there is balance in nature.
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00:42:11.000Which is there's the pastor that says don't get involved, but then there's also the pastor like this, the false white gospel, where they say we must reject Christian nationalism.
00:42:31.000So look, I think that the term Christian nationalist, look, I know that there are people that have embraced it and they've said, you know, if that's what you want to call me, then that's what I am.
00:42:38.000And yeah, yeah, I want God to take over the country and everything else.
00:42:41.000And I understand that and I understand the case for that.
00:42:44.000But I think, I don't think that we need other monikers for being Christians other than Christian, disciple, believer.
00:42:50.000I'm okay with conservative Christian because we have so many that are not conservative Christians or biblical Christian denominations.
00:42:58.000Yes, that you have to kind of say that.
00:43:00.000But this idea that there is a false white gospel, I mean, this is straight out.
00:43:03.000James Cohen could have written this book today, right?
00:43:10.000It's the oppressor versus oppressed, Marxist framework, except for instead of proletariat versus bourgeoisie, it is now the white theology versus black Christian, or there's black gospel or non-white gospel.
00:43:24.000And look, when you look at Christianity started in diversity, how many, Augustine, first of all, like from Northern Africa, I mean, probably the most influential person outside of New Testament thinkers.
00:43:34.000And this is, I mean, how much did he write and shape what we know of of the church and Christianity today, of being able to interpret a lot of, you know, these New Testament scriptures?
00:44:09.000I think that Christian nationalists, the true Christian nationalists, and this was my take, the true Christian nationalists are the Christian left, because there is no difference right now between, say, thinkers like Brandon Robertson, the kind of TikTok progressive, you know, LGBT preacher, and the Biden administration's view on gender, sexuality, open borders, socialism.
00:44:29.000They have identical doctrines and dogmas from state and church on the progressive church.
00:44:34.000They have truly bowed the knee to the state, and they are the true Christian nationalists, I think.
00:44:39.000Now, I understand that that term has all sorts of different definitions for people, but I think if you look at historically what happened in Germany, who were the Christian nationalists, it was the progressive church.
00:44:49.000It was not the believing church that Bonhoeffer and others were part of.
00:44:53.000It was the Nazified German church that bowed the knee to the Third Reich.
00:44:57.000That's exactly what we're seeing happen right now today.
00:44:59.000And I'm not saying that they're all Nazis, but I'm saying that they are bowing their knee to a false agenda of the state, and they have left Christian doctrine at the door of the church.
00:45:07.000Having traveled the country and been to a lot of churches, you spoke one in Mesa last night?
00:45:54.000We see these monuments that we call churches and cathedrals in Europe that are beautiful, but they're a reminder of a place where the church was once alive, and now it's dead.
00:46:03.000And I'm afraid that if it happens here, there's not going to be any beautiful buildings left to even know what.
00:46:44.000The theme is Here I Am, Hanani, which is said seven times throughout the Old Testament scriptures, always during a time of choosing and binding of Isaac and the call of Samuel and the call of Moses.
00:46:55.000So that is going to be the theme of our event in Florida.