The Charlie Kirk Show - The Ukraine Leak Power Grab + The RESTRICT Act Revisited with Senator Kevin Cramer

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, today on the Charlie Kirk Show, Senator Kramer joins us as we have some polite disagreement on the Restrict Act and Ukraine. 0.94

00:00:08.000 We talk about the leaker.

00:00:09.000 There's got to be more to this story.

00:00:11.000 And I think what has been leaked is far more important than the leaker himself.

00:00:14.000 Email us, freedom at charliekirk.com and subscribe to the Charlie Kirk Show podcast.

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00:00:50.000 Buckle up, everybody, here.

00:00:52.000 We go.

00:00:52.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:00:54.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campuses.

00:00:56.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

00:00:59.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

00:01:03.000 I want to thank Charlie.

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00:01:35.000 We're getting asked, you know, people are emailing us, Charlie, do you think this leaker is a hero or a villain?

00:01:40.000 Well, maybe there's a third choice.

00:01:41.000 I mean, generally, I'm not a huge fan of leaking for leaking sake.

00:01:46.000 Certainly didn't like the leaking of the Dobbs decision, didn't like the leaking of Donald Trump's tax returns, but there is a place for leaking.

00:01:54.000 I never liked a lot of the anti-Snowden treatment.

00:01:57.000 At the same time, I think that some of the information that Snowden made public was a little reckless and put some people's lives in danger, including current operations.

00:02:07.000 Julian Assange, largely, I think, did a good thing, but he also did a lot of things that I wouldn't support.

00:02:13.000 So it's a messy situation.

00:02:15.000 I don't think you're ever able to look at a leaker in glowing binary terms.

00:02:20.000 You have to look at it with some nuance.

00:02:22.000 And so you have to start to ask some questions.

00:02:23.000 So here's what we know.

00:02:24.000 This guy's 21 years old, air National Guardsman from Massachusetts.

00:02:28.000 Apparently, this information is spread out to 3 million people.

00:02:31.000 Comes out weekly.

00:02:32.000 It's like a pseudo newsletter, apparently.

00:02:34.000 If 3 million people get it, I mean, that's more people than read the New York Times every single day.

00:02:39.000 It's really extraordinary.

00:02:40.000 So 3 million people have access to this briefing.

00:02:42.000 It comes out weekly.

00:02:44.000 This young man, 21 years old from Massachusetts, decided to take the contents and put it on a Discord server.

00:02:50.000 So you have to ask the question, did the leak harm someone's immediate life?

00:02:54.000 Did you interfere with a mission that would be moral and necessary for the nation?

00:02:58.000 Did you leak more than you had to?

00:03:01.000 Did you leak for the right reasons?

00:03:02.000 These are the questions that you should ask whenever you come across some of these messy situations of leaks.

00:03:06.000 Because of course, on the media, too many Republicans, my goodness, I was just watching television this morning.

00:03:12.000 I was like, my goodness, you've got to be kidding me.

00:03:14.000 They, over and over again, they said, this is reprehensible.

00:03:17.000 How dare he do this?

00:03:18.000 And at the same time, there's other people that say this man is a patriot is a great thing ever.

00:03:22.000 I mean, maybe there's something in the middle.

00:03:23.000 Maybe it's he's not a patriot.

00:03:25.000 He's not a villain.

00:03:27.000 And then the other question is, did you do it for the right reasons?

00:03:29.000 And that's where this thing really starts to fall apart, honestly.

00:03:32.000 Is that all evidence shows that this young man did not leak this information to try to challenge the regime or expose the illegal war in Ukraine?

00:03:41.000 He did it to try to impress friends on a Discord server.

00:03:43.000 Now, maybe that's not correct.

00:03:44.000 We'll learn as time goes on.

00:03:46.000 But that is an important component.

00:03:48.000 But it's very telling how the media is treating them.

00:03:51.000 Because, look, this 21-year-old from Massachusetts, they're going to try to lock him up for the rest of his life, Espionage Act, all that.

00:03:59.000 What's more importantly is the content of the leaks.

00:04:03.000 It's amazing to see the media talk about this.

00:04:05.000 This is treason.

00:04:06.000 This is terrible.

00:04:07.000 This is helping our enemies.

00:04:08.000 How about you talk about what actually came out in the leaks, such as America's at war with Russia? 0.64

00:04:14.000 We are at war with Russia.

00:04:17.000 And how many people, how many members of Congress voted for that? 0.75

00:04:22.000 The answer is zero.

00:04:23.000 They voted for weapons.

00:04:24.000 They voted for munitions.

00:04:25.000 They voted for support.

00:04:27.000 It is the content of the leaks that are very telling.

00:04:29.000 We're spying on some of our closest allies.

00:04:31.000 The most important part of the leaks shows that NATO special forces are inside Ukraine and showing that our intelligence estimates are way more pessimistic on Ukraine's military than we said publicly.

00:04:43.000 And again, having a nuanced view on this and just talking about the messiness of the situation, this young man revealing it, that's a good thing.

00:04:51.000 I'm glad we're learning that.

00:04:53.000 I'm glad that we are learning that our government is lying to us.

00:04:56.000 I laugh.

00:04:57.000 I chuckle when the government uses this type of language.

00:05:00.000 Listen to Cut 88.

00:05:02.000 They say this was a deliberate criminal act.

00:05:05.000 Play Cut 88.

00:05:06.000 I would say, though, that it is important to understand that we do have stringent guidelines in place for safeguarding classified and sensitive information.

00:05:18.000 This was a deliberate criminal act, a violation of those guidelines.

00:05:24.000 A deliberate criminal act?

00:05:25.000 Do you know what a deliberate criminal act is?

00:05:27.000 A deliberate criminal act is waging an illegal proxy war in a country 5,000 miles away.

00:05:32.000 I'm much more concerned about what our government is doing in Ukraine than allegedly what some 21-year-old did when he leaked documents.

00:05:40.000 That's a much greater concern to me.

00:05:42.000 The contents matter a lot more than what this young man did or did not do.

00:05:48.000 But the media is trying to make it all about him.

00:05:50.000 They're trying to do a whole kind of thing, put him on display, almost Soviet show trial.

00:05:54.000 They're putting the focus on the leaker to avoid talking about the lies that the leaks actually exposed, the crimes that our own government is committing.

00:06:03.000 When our own government lies to us, we act as if it's totally normal.

00:06:06.000 Oh, yeah, we're spying on our allies.

00:06:08.000 We have illegal forces in Ukraine.

00:06:09.000 No one voted for it.

00:06:10.000 The Ukrainian force is actually dwindling. 0.69

00:06:12.000 Russia is doing better than they could tell us.

00:06:15.000 This guy is guilty of trying to be cool when he should have just kept his mouth shut.

00:06:18.000 Whatever.

00:06:19.000 Let's put the leaker aside. 0.73

00:06:20.000 Can we just focus on a second that we are in a war with Russia? 0.65

00:06:27.000 And almost nobody cares.

00:06:28.000 Congressional War Authorization, War Powers Act.

00:06:30.000 People are just kind of shrugging their shoulders.

00:06:32.000 And if you watch the Mockingbird media networks, one after the other, they show the arrests.

00:06:36.000 They show the young man in his red shorts, you know, hands.

00:06:40.000 National Guard, they're arraigning him.

00:06:43.000 They show his parents.

00:06:44.000 They show all this.

00:06:45.000 And you say, okay, got that.

00:06:47.000 Thanks.

00:06:48.000 That takes about 30 seconds.

00:06:50.000 Can you all of a sudden now just talk about the contents of the leaks?

00:06:54.000 Where we now have troops in a kinetic war zone where we did not vote on this.

00:07:00.000 We didn't authorize it.

00:07:00.000 We weren't notified.

00:07:01.000 You guys lied about it.

00:07:02.000 You guys told us the opposite.

00:07:04.000 Let me tell you.

00:07:05.000 So let me get this straight.

00:07:07.000 When we lie to the government, we could go to jail.

00:07:14.000 If you lie to the government, you can go to jail.

00:07:17.000 But when the government lies to us, everything is just perfectly fine.

00:07:20.000 And let me prove it to you.

00:07:22.000 Joe Biden was asked in February 2020, he said he would never send American troops to Ukraine.

00:07:28.000 He said he would never send U.S. special forces to Ukraine. 0.73

00:07:32.000 This young man exposed Joe Biden to be a liar.

00:07:37.000 Play cut 62.

00:07:40.000 We are not seeking direct confrontation with Russia.

00:07:43.000 Though I've been clear...

00:07:45.000 Russia targets Americans in Ukraine.

00:07:48.000 We will respond forcefully.

00:07:51.000 While I will not send American...

00:07:55.000 We have supplied the Ukrainian military with equipment to training and advice.

00:08:04.000 That's Joe Biden saying that I would never send American troops to Ukraine.

00:08:08.000 Well, we have troops in Ukraine. 0.60

00:08:10.000 This is America versus Russia.

00:08:13.000 And if that's the legacy of what this young man has leaked, that's a very helpful thing to know. 0.79

00:08:18.000 Where are the Republicans on this?

00:08:20.000 Oh, they support it.

00:08:21.000 That's what.

00:08:22.000 And I just seen one after the other, after the other, after the other on TV.

00:08:25.000 This is reprehensible.

00:08:26.000 How is this possible?

00:08:27.000 How did he get the hands-on information?

00:08:29.000 How about you guys press pause and stop defending the American war machine and ask a question of why are we fighting Russia?

00:08:38.000 Why do we hate Russia as much as we do again?

00:08:40.000 You just got to keep reminding me.

00:08:41.000 And I asked that question.

00:08:43.000 Oh, it's because of, oh, the Cold War.

00:08:46.000 Because we got muscle memory from the ghosts of the Cold War past.

00:08:51.000 Not a fan of Russia. 0.73

00:08:52.000 Not a good country. 0.99

00:08:53.000 I don't want to live there.

00:08:54.000 You shouldn't want to live there.

00:08:55.000 They're not a free society.

00:08:56.000 They lock up political dissidents. 0.97

00:08:58.000 Well, we do that too.

00:08:59.000 They lock up journalists they don't like.

00:09:00.000 Well, we do that too.

00:09:02.000 Well, they, I guess they shut up protesters.

00:09:05.000 Well, we do that too.

00:09:06.000 They clamp down on the opposition political party.

00:09:08.000 Well, we do that too.

00:09:09.000 Anyway, so of course, you know, Russia, we criticize Russia of all those things. 0.85

00:09:14.000 Of course, we would still do all those things. 0.66

00:09:16.000 But at the same time, Russia does not have the Constitution that we do. 0.70

00:09:19.000 They don't have First Amendment rights, private property rights. 0.94

00:09:21.000 They don't have the same sort of tradition we have. 0.68

00:09:23.000 Not a fan of Russia.

00:09:24.000 I don't really think highly of the country.

00:09:25.000 At the same time, every country that might not exactly be your own flavor of self-government and liberty does not mean you have to go to war with them.

00:09:34.000 In fact, they could be very helpful.

00:09:36.000 They could be an ally.

00:09:37.000 They could be in a place of neutrality.

00:09:40.000 You do not have to fight every country that you don't like.

00:09:45.000 Same time, we are told time and time again, well, Charlie, one of the greatest threats to America is Russia.

00:09:50.000 How and why?

00:09:51.000 You're making Russia one of the biggest threats. 0.94

00:09:54.000 You have created Russia as one of the biggest threats to America.

00:09:57.000 It wasn't the biggest threat to America before you guys started to fund a proxy war in Ukraine.

00:10:01.000 Now Russia actually is a threat to us.

00:10:03.000 You have projected this into reality. 0.85

00:10:07.000 Russia was just trying to reclaim Ukraine, Eastern Border Dispute, a country that used to be under their own borders. 0.56

00:10:14.000 But it's up to us to police the borders of Europe, but not police our own borders. 0.83

00:10:18.000 Got it. 0.81

00:10:18.000 Message received. 0.81

00:10:22.000 Hey, everybody, Charlie Kirk here.

00:10:23.000 I want to tell you about a new movie that's coming out April 14th, Nefarious, from the same people who made God's Not Dead unplanned.

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00:10:32.000 It's like a modern-day version of C.S. Lewis, The Screw Tape Letters.

00:10:36.000 Nefarious is a story of good and evil.

00:10:39.000 It's about a convicted killer who, hours before his execution, claimed to be a demon.

00:10:43.000 An atheist psychiatrist is called in to meet with the man and decide if he's insane or just pretending or something much worse.

00:10:49.000 The film is marketed as a horror film, but do not let that stop you.

00:10:53.000 It is rated R, which is strange since there's no sex or violence.

00:10:56.000 I guess Hollywood doesn't want teenagers to see this film, but that's exactly who should see it.

00:11:01.000 Nefarious opens in theaters nationwide starting April 14th.

00:11:05.000 So go buy your tickets right now and make sure you bring a friend.

00:11:08.000 The questions of good or evil are all over the American culture right now.

00:11:12.000 Teenagers especially need to see it.

00:11:14.000 Visit whoisnefarious.com to see the trailer and buy tickets.

00:11:18.000 So check it out right now.

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00:11:26.000 They're going to try to use this as an excuse to restrict our speech.

00:11:30.000 They're starting to talk here.

00:11:31.000 They're saying, well, now we need to police more of these social channels.

00:11:35.000 They're going to use this as a prerequisite for censorship.

00:11:39.000 This is how the regime works.

00:11:40.000 They are coming after our dissident social media platforms.

00:11:45.000 It's one of the reasons why we oppose the Restrict Act, Telegram, Rumble, now Twitter, Getter, Truth Social, Discord, I guess.

00:11:55.000 I mean, I don't use Discord.

00:11:57.000 I don't know how helpful it is.

00:11:59.000 NBC News says U.S. Intel agencies may change how they monitor social media chat rooms after missing leaked U.S. documents for weeks.

00:12:08.000 Oh, so they might monitor our Telegram chats now?

00:12:10.000 By the way, this is one of the reasons that the Restrict Act says, oh, if you have connections to Russia, we could get ready.

00:12:16.000 Well, Telegram was founded by a Russian.

00:12:18.000 And Discord is very similar to Telegram.

00:12:20.000 It's a messaging service.

00:12:23.000 We use Telegram for all our communications on the show.

00:12:26.000 It's a really good platform.

00:12:27.000 I encourage people to find a better messaging platform for high-frequency file sharing and for being able to get lots of different channels and feeds.

00:12:36.000 The user interface is the best, I think.

00:12:39.000 But they would love to be able to go after it.

00:12:40.000 They've talked about how Telegram is fomenting places for white nationalist tape.

00:12:46.000 They basically say they plan to scrub Discord from now on, basically announcing they plan to spy on the entire thing.

00:12:52.000 Use the Patriot Act.

00:12:54.000 Use Edward Snowden's, what Edward Snowden used to work on the National Security Agency to go after all of our online chatter.

00:13:02.000 So their response to this is not, hey, maybe we shouldn't be funding an illegal war in Ukraine and having U.S. troops in Kyiv.

00:13:09.000 No, no, no.

00:13:10.000 Instead of acknowledging that they are in error and deceit and that they are lying, they want to clamp down on the citizens.

00:13:18.000 Instead of saying, well, maybe we should be more honest with you and we're sorry about that.

00:13:23.000 When was the last time anybody said sorry in our government?

00:13:27.000 When was the last time we ever received an apology?

00:13:29.000 Did we receive an apology for 15 days of slow to spread?

00:13:32.000 How about an apology for the mRNA gene-altering vaccine?

00:13:35.000 Apology for the open borders? 1.00

00:13:37.000 Apology for the debacle out of Afghanistan. 0.63

00:13:39.000 Apology for the closed schools, mask mandates, churches being closed and strip clubs remaining open, marijuana dispensaries remaining open. 0.98

00:13:46.000 Where's the apology, the admission?

00:13:48.000 How about the apology from saying that the virus came from a bat in the Himalayan mountains or funding gain of function research and still doing gain of function research?

00:13:56.000 Where's the apology for any of that?

00:13:58.000 No, no, no.

00:13:58.000 An apology requires introspection, humility, and some form of goodness.

00:14:04.000 Our ruling regime has none of it.

00:14:07.000 But the BLM rioters, the arsonists, and the BLM terrorists in New York City, they got an apology and they got $21,500 per person. 0.63

00:14:17.000 So we don't get an apology from our own government. 0.69

00:14:20.000 No, no, no.

00:14:20.000 Instead, they want to clamp down more on us.

00:14:23.000 If we actually had a functioning government, which we do not, if we had a group, if we had an opposition party in the Republican Party that cared about us, here's what they would say.

00:14:30.000 They would say, okay, this guy should not have leaked the information.

00:14:33.000 But honestly, we should be more honest with you guys.

00:14:36.000 This is not good.

00:14:37.000 No, instead they say, this is perfectly normal.

00:14:39.000 Go after the 21-year-old.

00:14:41.000 Keep on showing it on TV.

00:14:42.000 Show him being arrested.

00:14:43.000 Chill the speech.

00:14:44.000 Chill it.

00:14:45.000 Instead, it's like, oh, hold on.

00:14:47.000 You do realize that this young man might be in error, that we don't like to overly sensationalize leakers for many reasons.

00:14:56.000 But are we at war with Russia?

00:14:59.000 And why aren't we having a robust discussion about that?

00:15:03.000 Or at least a debate on the House floor, Senate?

00:15:06.000 Can we have a little bit of back and forth?

00:15:08.000 What are the pros and cons?

00:15:09.000 Do we vote for that?

00:15:11.000 Play cut 90, this is Tucker Carlson saying this war is a violation of American law.

00:15:16.000 It is a crime.

00:15:16.000 That's exactly right.

00:15:17.000 So the bigger crime here is not leaking information.

00:15:21.000 The real crime is the American government violating the War's Powers Act and getting involved in a soon-to-be hot and kinetic war with a nuclear-armed power, Russia, completely unnecessarily for a country that is not a threat to the United States.

00:15:37.000 They're making it a threat. 0.57

00:15:38.000 They're poking the Russian bear so much, they have created Russia into an enemy. 0.65

00:15:43.000 This is of the making of the Central Intelligence Agency. 0.52

00:15:46.000 This is a creation of Langley, Virginia.

00:15:48.000 Play cut 90.

00:15:50.000 The United States is a direct combatant in a war against Russia.

00:15:54.000 As we speak, American soldiers are fighting Russian soldiers.

00:15:59.000 So, this is not a regional conflict in Eastern Europe.

00:16:02.000 This is a hot war between the two primary nuclear superpowers on earth.

00:16:08.000 And yet, this war has never been formally declared.

00:16:11.000 It has not been authorized by Congress.

00:16:13.000 And for that reason, this war is a violation of American law.

00:16:16.000 It is a crime.

00:16:18.000 I would love to see Congress vote on it.

00:16:20.000 Why do we have U.S. troops in Kyiv?

00:16:21.000 I don't know.

00:16:22.000 I'd love an answer to that.

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00:17:04.000 Thrilled to have us and thankful to have the good senator from the great state of North Dakota, Senator Kramer, rejoin the program.

00:17:11.000 Senator, thank you for making time.

00:17:12.000 Senator, let's dive right into it.

00:17:14.000 You're co-sponsor of the Restrict Act.

00:17:16.000 Tell us why.

00:17:17.000 Sure.

00:17:18.000 A couple of things, Charlie.

00:17:19.000 I'm like a lot of conservatives wondering what's the right touch on how you deal with all things China and, of course, our other adversaries.

00:17:27.000 How do we protect our young people?

00:17:29.000 How do we protect our secrets?

00:17:30.000 How do we protect data from bad actors?

00:17:34.000 And do you just ban TikTok and Huawei and then ban them as they come?

00:17:39.000 Or can we put some guardrails up front and some authorities that prevent these investments from taking place prior to them becoming, you know, prior to 150 million users in the United States downloading an app?

00:17:54.000 And I think it's an honest discussion.

00:17:56.000 And I think there's somewhere in all of this, there's hopefully the right path.

00:18:01.000 The Restrict Act, to me, seems like a pretty good starting point and a good place to start the discussion, at least, and see where it leads.

00:18:10.000 So do you think the bill is being currently misunderstood by critics such as myself?

00:18:15.000 And if so, what do you think are the big misconceptions that people are leveling towards this potential piece of legislation?

00:18:24.000 Yeah, I do think there's some misunderstanding, but at the same time, Charlie, I'm always open to misunderstood people correcting me.

00:18:32.000 I think it'd be arrogant for me to just say you're all wrong and we're the good guys and we're right.

00:18:37.000 And that's why what I like about this bill, I expect that there'll be a lot of debate.

00:18:43.000 There'll be amendments offered and there should be.

00:18:45.000 I actually think there could be a few more guardrails put in place, a couple more restrictions, particularly on the executive branch.

00:18:52.000 But one of the things, one of the, what I think is a misconception is that this is similar to the Patriot Act, that it's a dragnet to catch Americans and all of those things.

00:19:03.000 And we tried really hard in the bill.

00:19:05.000 And I use the term weed loosely, by the way.

00:19:08.000 This was largely authored by Mark Warner and John Thune.

00:19:12.000 And they're on the Commerce Committee, which has jurisdiction over telecommunications.

00:19:16.000 And so it's really a hardware, more of a hardware bill.

00:19:20.000 It doesn't go after VPNs.

00:19:23.000 We're really not interested in content.

00:19:25.000 We're not interested in individuals.

00:19:27.000 It's really companies from specific adversarial countries.

00:19:32.000 Again, trying to stop the actual apps and the hardware from getting in place in our country rather than waiting till after the vaccine.

00:19:41.000 So I think the biggest misconception, and by the way, it's an earned misconception, just if I might be honest, anything that we do in our country can be used against us.

00:19:52.000 Abraham Lincoln warned about that prior to becoming president, dealing with our military and our, I think you call them shining seacoasts and bristling seacoasts and shiny armaments.

00:20:05.000 So anything can be used against us.

00:20:07.000 And we have a government that has from time to time demonstrated that their willingness to do that.

00:20:12.000 That's why the one thing about this bill that sort of hooked me, Charlie, is that it puts Congress sort of in the middle of it along with the executive branch with veto powers, with the ability to turn back bad decisions made by the executive branch.

00:20:29.000 This is largely the Trump rule that he issued as a rulemaking using existing powers, emergency powers.

00:20:38.000 I use the term emergency loosely because, again, there's plenty of evidence of abuse by presidents when it comes to, quote, emergency powers.

00:20:47.000 But he issued the rule in an effort to ban TikTok, and then, of course, was overturned in court.

00:20:53.000 This codifies the rule, puts a few more of these guardrails.

00:20:58.000 I keep using that term, but it's the best term I can think of, guardrails in place to prevent the very thing that you rightfully fear.

00:21:05.000 Yeah, and I'll be honest, you know, when you say that most of the work was done by Senator Warner, I find that not to be very persuasive.

00:21:12.000 I certainly don't trust him, nor do I think he wants what's best for American liberty.

00:21:17.000 Maybe this might be an exception to that.

00:21:19.000 I don't think so.

00:21:20.000 But one of the issues, though, Senator, that emerges in the bill is that it seems to be more than just China.

00:21:26.000 It loops in Russia, for example, which might sound good, but a very popular application is Telegram, and that was founded by a Russian.

00:21:35.000 Rumble was founded in a foreign country, albeit Canada, so that's not in the bill.

00:21:40.000 But I suppose one of the concerns is that giving the Secretary of Commerce czar-like cyber war power, if it's about the CCP or about TikTok, maybe we could just focus on that and make it a very focused bill.

00:21:58.000 Because the skepticism that I have and the audience has is it seems to be a pattern of DC and people that don't share the love of the Constitution you and I have.

00:22:09.000 They seize on something that might be popular and a problem.

00:22:12.000 Of course, TikTok's a problem.

00:22:13.000 It's digital heroin.

00:22:14.000 I completely agree.

00:22:15.000 And then we turn around and all of a sudden we're less free and we have this basically immovable leviathan.

00:22:23.000 What do you think about that?

00:22:24.000 Well, again, I think those are well-earned concerns.

00:22:26.000 And I will say this for Mark Warner. 0.97

00:22:28.000 He is chairman of the Intelligence Committee and he was very helpful to me in trying to stopping the Fufang investment in Grand Forks. 0.96

00:22:35.000 And we can go, that's another whole story.

00:22:37.000 And I'm still trying to get some sort of a post-mortem on the failures of the CIFIA process.

00:22:42.000 But that's part of what motivates me is that our existing institutions and systems aren't working very well on the one hand, to keep the federal government in check, on the other hand, to protect Americans' freedom.

00:22:55.000 So Mark Warner was very helpful to me on that.

00:22:57.000 The second thing, though, I think back to I'm a 14th and 15th generation pilgrim.

00:23:05.000 My ancestors came on the Mayflower.

00:23:07.000 William Bradford was my 10th great grandfather.

00:23:09.000 And when he wrote the Mayflower Compact, while it's only 200 words, the reason he was compelled to write it was because several people on the Mayflower were already discussing how great it would be to not have to be governed by anybody.

00:23:23.000 And they said, no, wait a minute, freedom doesn't mean license.

00:23:26.000 And so I think the struggle for America over the decades and the centuries, and probably always will be, will be the very discussion you and I are having.

00:23:34.000 The unfortunate thing is there are bad actors both abroad and domestically who would like to take advantage of these opportunities.

00:23:41.000 And that's why, and by the way, Charlie, what I love about this is that here we are, two conservatives, having this discussion.

00:23:48.000 This is largely a discussion within the conservative family.

00:23:51.000 As you know, you have, on the one hand, you have, you know, my friend Josh Hawley wanting to ban TikTok, TikTok.

00:24:00.000 I've not gotten on that bandwagon yet, although I probably will.

00:24:04.000 But on the other hand, do we wait again for 150 million Americans to be downloading the app or telecommunications companies applying Huawei or technologies and then finding out later we shouldn't have allowed that and then rolling it back.

00:24:20.000 So again, it's finding the balance that people like you and your listeners are going to help us find.

00:24:26.000 I'll give one example.

00:24:27.000 One of the things about the six countries, we can debate whether Russia should be on it or not.

00:24:32.000 We probably don't have to debate whether Iran or North Korea should be on the list.

00:24:36.000 All of those things.

00:24:37.000 I'm not really sure why Cuba has to be on the list, for example.

00:24:40.000 And Cuba is one of the countries on the list.

00:24:43.000 I think these are the exact conversations.

00:24:45.000 The other one thing about it that I'm a little concerned about, I would expect that we could have some amending to would be giving the Secretary of the Interior complete authority to add to that list and then having Congress respond to that.

00:24:58.000 I'm not sure that we want that authority.

00:25:01.000 I think that authority should have to get Congress's permission rather than a veto, for example.

00:25:07.000 Just they seem like little things, but I think they're important.

00:25:10.000 And those are just a couple of the discussions that I've been having with friends.

00:25:15.000 Yeah, and so I guess you're a co-sponsor of the bill.

00:25:19.000 I would challenge, though, why not just say this is probably too far-reaching and the Patriot Act comparison, I think, is fair because some of this is loosely written.

00:25:30.000 Now, maybe this will be cleared up, but Senator, in all fairness, I don't have a lot of faith in Congress always limiting legislation.

00:25:38.000 Usually it increases.

00:25:39.000 It's kind of like a bacterial infection at times where it starts at 100 pages and ends up at 1,000.

00:25:44.000 But I mean, some of the language, and again, this is open for debate and for amendment because it's not law yet, is very open, right?

00:25:52.000 It says it governs transactions, which it defines as any acquisition, importation, transfer, installation, dealing in, or any use of information.

00:26:01.000 I find one thing interesting, Senator.

00:26:03.000 You said you're not on board for the banning of TikTok.

00:26:06.000 So is the spirit of this, in your opinion, less about TikTok and more about Huawei and just foreign actors in the social media space, more broadly telecommunications?

00:26:17.000 Because I think that's where some people are getting confused because we have the TikTok hearings that seem to build consensus.

00:26:25.000 Or do you think the TikTok one is not even as big of an issue as the critical infrastructure piece, which I agree is tremendous?

00:26:33.000 Yeah.

00:26:34.000 So really important distinctions, Charlie.

00:26:37.000 I'm very concerned about TikTok, but TikTok is the example of what happens if you don't put in some barriers up front to bad actors, adversarial countries and their companies, particularly adversarial countries that are very capable of and have proven and demonstrated strong desire to both steal and manipulate people on their platforms or on their hardware, whether it's, like I say, a Huawei or whether it's an app like TikTok.

00:27:06.000 Remember, the four apps that most Americans downloaded in the last month in the United States are all four owned by Chinese corporations.

00:27:18.000 So it is largely China and it is largely TikTok.

00:27:21.000 At least that's the context.

00:27:23.000 What I think what the bill is trying to do is we're trying to sort of head those things off before it becomes a TikTok or a Huawei.

00:27:32.000 And again, this is a little bit why I'm not quite yet on the TikTok thing.

00:27:37.000 I probably, like I said, I'll probably get there, but I don't want to play whack-amo every time 150 million more Americans get on an app.

00:27:43.000 I'd like to prevent that from happening in the first place.

00:27:46.000 But with regard to the process as well, Charlie, you're exactly right.

00:27:49.000 This is a 55-page bill.

00:27:51.000 Congress has a tendency to grow the bills as amendments come up.

00:27:54.000 But this is a bill that is two things.

00:27:57.000 One, it is, in fact, bipartisan.

00:27:58.000 It's not the Inflation Reduction Act.

00:28:03.000 It's not American Rescue Plan.

00:28:06.000 It starts out bipartisan, which means you'll have a better process.

00:28:09.000 It's not universally loved.

00:28:10.000 There are a lot of questions, which means we will likely have lots of amendments.

00:28:15.000 And it's also in a committee, the Committee of Jurisdiction.

00:28:18.000 Where Congress really blows things up is with things like omnibus spending bills and these, you know, like my previous examples when you're using budget reconciliation, when there's very little to no discussion.

00:28:32.000 That won't be able to happen in this case.

00:28:34.000 But that said, again, we've seen it happen too often.

00:28:37.000 I get go back to the Mayflower Compact.

00:28:39.000 It was 200 words.

00:28:40.000 The Constitution's a couple thousand words.

00:28:43.000 You know, God gave us 10 commandments after Israel gave us 66 rules.

00:28:49.000 And then Jesus boiled it down to love your neighbor as yourself and love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength.

00:28:56.000 So we haven't improved on any of those in the centuries since.

00:29:02.000 So I think, again, focused.

00:29:04.000 I think you're right.

00:29:05.000 Maybe it just becomes China focused, but I do think that we want to head off other really bad actors before it becomes much more difficult to do it. 0.88

00:29:13.000 Or you have to unwind things, which is exactly what we're dealing with now when it comes to China in this country.

00:29:18.000 I mean, they're embedded in so much of our supply chain.

00:29:21.000 Another whole show, I know, but I have lots of concerns about how we screw them out.

00:29:28.000 I will tell you my piece on this.

00:29:30.000 When I hear that it's bipartisan, that makes me even more skeptical because at times it seems as if that's when the biggest power grabs occur.

00:29:39.000 And I know our audience certainly feels that way.

00:29:42.000 When Republicans see it always seems as if we're pandering to the Democrats, the Democrats don't ever come over to our side.

00:29:48.000 We can agree to disagree on that, but it certainly seems that's been the pattern over the last decade.

00:29:53.000 Our founders made it hard on purpose.

00:29:58.000 They made it hard, and that's why I like the Jeffersonian posture in most of these bills.

00:30:03.000 Just vote no and go back to your home state.

00:30:06.000 Senator, we have learned because of these leaks that we have U.S. troops in Ukraine, albeit a small force of special forces.

00:30:15.000 Would you support a war powers vote authorization in the United States Senate so that Congress could actually weigh in on this now soon-to-be kinetic conflict of America fighting Russia?

00:30:29.000 I don't know that it's going to be soon-to-be kinetic conflict with Americans fighting Russia.

00:30:33.000 Obviously, we have troops that protect our embassy.

00:30:36.000 That's true in every country in the world.

00:30:38.000 And I would hope that we wouldn't have an embassy if we couldn't have troops there to protect our people.

00:30:43.000 I mean, we've seen enough examples, bad examples of that.

00:30:47.000 In addition to that, by the way, they are the ones holding Ukraine account for the weapons systems that are being sent already to them that have been approved by Congress and being doled out now by the president, albeit, in my view, far too slowly.

00:31:03.000 With regard to war powers, as you probably know, I was one of the Republicans that voted to repeal the AUMFs from the Iraq wars.

00:31:12.000 Both of them older than most of the people that are in Iraq on our behalf right now.

00:31:17.000 And so I don't know that we're at a point where we need a War Powers Act vote in the United States Senate if the War Powers Act's even constitutional, which is arguable.

00:31:28.000 But before we would send troops there, or at least within the War Powers Act parameters, you'd have to come to the United States Congress for authority if we're going to be fighting there.

00:31:40.000 Because, again, unless they were to attack us specifically, I don't think the president would have that authority.

00:31:48.000 So, Senator, at this point, we're now over a year into this conflict.

00:31:52.000 Anywhere between $100 or $200 billion have been spent.

00:31:55.000 At this point, do you think we've spent too much money?

00:31:59.000 What do you think is the limit?

00:32:00.000 And what does success look like in your calculation?

00:32:03.000 So the last question is the most important one because the dollar amount, well, it's significant.

00:32:08.000 It's about, I think, $113 billion.

00:32:11.000 I think there's probably $40 or so billion that has not been spent, but you're right, it's been authorized and appropriated.

00:32:17.000 Part of my struggle with this is that I don't think that this administration was serious enough about helping Ukraine win with those dollars.

00:32:24.000 Instead, they've been doling them out so slowly that Ukraine has just had a long, slow, hopefully victory.

00:32:32.000 And I say hopefully because you don't know.

00:32:34.000 I think had they been better equipped with half as much money early, they very well could have been more successful by now.

00:32:40.000 That said, I'm not going to discuss what I think the limits are publicly as much as people love to have me do that. 0.65

00:32:47.000 And I know you do, because if you did that, then Russia just has to go, okay, we'll just wait till that number is used up and then we'll attack.

00:32:54.000 I don't think it's good to discuss those things in the public sphere.

00:32:59.000 But I do hope our embassy stays safe, and I'm glad to have some special forces there to keep them safe as well as to account for the money that's already been appropriated and spent in Ukraine to make sure it's being used for the right purposes.

00:33:15.000 Do you think we're accompanied?

00:33:16.000 What is the mission?

00:33:18.000 What do you think we could say?

00:33:19.000 Okay, we've accomplished success.

00:33:22.000 Sure.

00:33:22.000 So I think there are a couple of things, Charlie.

00:33:24.000 I mean, first of all, ultimately, our success would be determined by what success is for Ukraine, and that would be to get the parameters that the agreed upon in the Budapest memorandum agreed upon borders of Ukraine.

00:33:40.000 That's what America pledged when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons.

00:33:45.000 And we said we'd be the nuclear umbrella largely in Europe as well as similarly in the Pacific.

00:33:52.000 And all of that's being challenged.

00:33:54.000 But I don't, again, if it was just you and me discussing it, and we'll just pretend there aren't lots of people listening right now.

00:34:00.000 I would expect at some point this gets to the place where there'll be a negotiated settlement. 0.85

00:34:07.000 But, you know, even me saying that out loud gives Vladimir Putin some hope that Zelensky is going to have to cave at some point. 0.83

00:34:15.000 And right now, I think Ukraine's doing well enough to expect that they should be able to push Russia out of their country and would go back to Budapest memorandum borders. 0.93

00:34:27.000 But again, I'm a realist. 0.71

00:34:29.000 Super quick.

00:34:31.000 Only 30 seconds.

00:34:32.000 Do you mean out of Crimea as well?

00:34:34.000 Because that's debated.

00:34:36.000 It's debated.

00:34:37.000 And if I was the negotiator, Crimea might be on the table.

00:34:40.000 But I think for now, our position is that Crimea belongs to Ukraine.

00:34:44.000 And that was one of the agreements at the time.

00:34:48.000 But Charlie, again, without debating every detail of it, for now, Crimea would be included as far as I'm concerned.

00:34:56.000 No, I only ask because that would probably make it another decade because that's not going to fall anytime soon.

00:35:02.000 Senator Translation.

00:35:03.000 But this is why I want to do this on air.

00:35:06.000 It's always my pleasure.

00:35:07.000 Thank you.

00:35:07.000 Okay, Charlie.

00:35:08.000 Thank you, Senator.

00:35:09.000 Thanks so much.

00:35:09.000 Email us freedom at Charlie Kirk, everybody.

00:35:11.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:35:12.000 Email us your thoughts.

00:35:13.000 It's always freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:35:16.000 Thanks so much for listening, and God bless.

00:35:20.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk. com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - April 14, 2023

The Ukraine Leak Power Grab + The RESTRICT Act Revisited with Senator Kevin Cramer

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