The Charlie Kirk Show - THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 39 — Tucker vs. Israel? Abortion and 2024? Who Broke Marriage?

00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody.

00:00:00.000 Happy Thought Crime Saturday.

00:00:02.000 We sit down and talk at length about abortion and then Tucker Carlson on Israel and so much more.

00:00:08.000 Blake joins the program.

00:00:09.000 Andrew's on the program.

00:00:10.000 Jack's on the program.

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00:00:35.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:36.000 Here we go.

00:00:37.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:00:39.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campuses.

00:00:41.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

00:00:44.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

00:00:48.000 I want to thank Charlie.

00:00:49.000 He's an incredible guy.

00:00:50.000 His spirit, his love of this country.

00:00:52.000 He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.

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00:01:36.000 Okay, it is thought crime time, everybody, in the studio.

00:01:39.000 We only have one person, producer Andrew.

00:01:41.000 Hey, only me?

00:01:43.000 Well, just only one person.

00:01:45.000 Remote is Blake.

00:01:47.000 Blake, you're blocking the eclipse.

00:01:50.000 Yes, the eclipse is over.

00:01:52.000 It was great.

00:01:53.000 I know you just think it was a bunch of clouds.

00:01:55.000 It was like a dark object.

00:01:57.000 It went dark for a bit.

00:01:58.000 It gets dark every night, but it was actually pretty fun, I have to say.

00:02:02.000 It was a quasi-spiritual experience, some people say.

00:02:04.000 Jack, what did you do for the eclipse?

00:02:08.000 I made sure to look directly at it for as long as possible to gain the supernatural powers for the 2024 election.

00:02:18.000 Now, I didn't travel like Blake did.

00:02:21.000 People don't realize this, but Blake is actually part of a group of eclipse worshipers, and they travel to every single eclipse around the world.

00:02:29.000 It's a you know, kind of a Reddit thing that they do.

00:02:33.000 And, you know, when they're not, when they're not in their prayer circles praying to Dr. Fauci, they go and pray to the eclipses.

00:02:40.000 Well, speaking of supernatural powers, we might need it after the latest Supreme Court decision in Arizona.

00:02:46.000 Who wants to walk us through?

00:02:47.000 What's going on in Arizona?

00:02:49.000 What's that?

00:02:50.000 Something significant.

00:02:52.000 Who wants to walk us through it?

00:02:53.000 Blake or Andrew?

00:02:53.000 Andrew, you want to take it?

00:02:54.000 You know, I think, you know, we have a good rundown here, and let me just make sure I pull it up.

00:03:01.000 But yeah, I mean, basically, we have a okay.

00:03:05.000 So there was a 15-week law that was the law of the land in Arizona that was predicated on the fact that Roe v. Wade was also the law of the land.

00:03:16.000 But then Roe v. Wade gets overturned by the Supreme Court, which basically nullifies this 15-week ban that was in Arizona, Doug Ducey's abortion law.

00:03:27.000 And what that did is it sent it back to a Civil War era law when Arizona was still a territory.

00:03:33.000 And that law basically outlaws all abortion in the state of Arizona.

00:03:39.000 This obviously has massive political implications for a lot of reasons.

00:03:43.000 Arizona was polling in such a way that we were hearing rumors that Biden and the Democrats were not putting much hope in Arizona at all, right?

00:03:51.000 It's one of the key swing states.

00:03:52.000 You would have expected the opposite.

00:03:54.000 Their polling and their internals and the work that Turning Point Action is doing was all leading to a predicament for them where they were not investing in Arizona as you might expect.

00:04:03.000 Well, I think all that changed yesterday.

00:04:07.000 One thing that I think is important to understand.

00:04:11.000 So, this is the logic of the left.

00:04:13.000 They think if abortion now becomes the issue, that that will drive low-propensity Democrat, abortion-loving people to the polls.

00:04:23.000 And therefore, whatever deficit that Joe Biden was experiencing is now going to be made up by these low-prop, pro-abortions.

00:04:29.000 And they're going all in on it, right?

00:04:29.000 They're going all in on it.

00:04:31.000 So, what people need to understand is that there already was an abortion, the issue was going to be on the ballot via referendum in Arizona.

00:04:41.000 In Arizona, so there was already going to be an abortion issue on the ballot.

00:04:46.000 And the only other swing state where that's true is Nevada, which actually is very interesting to me, Charlie, with everything that we've been talking about with Nebraska and forcing Joe Biden to play in the Sun Belt.

00:04:59.000 Well, Nevada and Arizona have abortion on the ballot.

00:05:03.000 So, it's been a very chaotic last 24 hours, last 48 hours, because there seems to be a predisposition by conservatives to basically toss the life issue out, right?

00:05:17.000 So, Trump preempts this on Monday, right?

00:05:19.000 Or was that on Tuesday?

00:05:21.000 Maybe it was on Tuesday.

00:05:21.000 I apologize.

00:05:22.000 It was Monday.

00:05:22.000 Monday.

00:05:23.000 Yeah.

00:05:23.000 The day of the eclipse.

00:05:24.000 So, Trump preempts it, issues his statement, throwing it back to the states.

00:05:29.000 And incredibly, the next day, this Arizona Supreme Court ruling comes out and basically says that the law of the land is still this Civil War era law.

00:05:38.000 So, everybody's confused what it means.

00:05:40.000 Charlie, you've got some interesting ideas I think we need to get into.

00:05:43.000 And then, in the legislative session out of Arizona, all hell's breaking loose.

00:05:47.000 The Democrats are yelling shame and there's blood on your hands inside of the legislature inside the house here in Arizona.

00:05:56.000 I mean, it's a very wild scenario and a very live note.

00:06:00.000 This is, look, the Democrats have one, maybe two attack vectors.

00:06:04.000 The only other attack vector they have is taking Donald Trump off the ballot, and that didn't happen.

00:06:07.000 And number two was Roe v. Wade and abortion.

00:06:10.000 And our side is currently very disorganized on this, not unified.

00:06:15.000 And I mean, I'll tell you, I'm getting it from both sides right now.

00:06:19.000 And I've been, not me, because actually people respect my opinions on this.

00:06:24.000 I've gotten a little bit of ridicule and condemnation, but by both sides, let me explain.

00:06:28.000 I have pastor group chats of people that are incensed that the Republican Party is not saying the Arizona ban is not the best thing ever.

00:06:37.000 That's number one, saying that Kerry Lake and Trump should come out and say this is the best thing ever.

00:06:41.000 We should make it the law of the land.

00:06:42.000 Then I have other people on the other side that are patriots, donors, and activists alike that say we need to make this a non-issue or else we're going to get obliterated in November.

00:06:51.000 And so you kind of have these two factions.

00:06:53.000 And no, and they're all one sec, Jack.

00:06:56.000 They're all calling each other's names.

00:06:58.000 They're all calling, you know, they're all pointing fingers at one another.

00:07:00.000 And my position was: love the ruling.

00:07:03.000 I want abortion to not be the law of the land.

00:07:05.000 Bad timing.

00:07:06.000 Why?

00:07:07.000 It's not even a close fit to the will of the people.

00:07:10.000 And if you have something that is not in the fit the will of the people, it's not sustainable.

00:07:14.000 And it also creates massive political backlash.

00:07:17.000 So that's my position.

00:07:18.000 So I said, try to get something on the ballot that is a pro-life win, which would be a heartbeat bill.

00:07:24.000 And I think that we have the best, most prudent, reasonable solution that's been proposed.

00:07:28.000 But I am not afraid.

00:07:30.000 I don't care how much this gets clipped by the media to state this is a problem.

00:07:35.000 It's a problem.

00:07:36.000 And acting as if it doesn't exist is foolish.

00:07:40.000 Jack, please, sorry, I had to get that all out.

00:07:42.000 No, no, and we should, of course, bring up our positions.

00:07:46.000 But before we get to that on this, and I'll even say, you know, I said first and foremost, because this is such a problem right now that we should lead the show with this.

00:07:57.000 And we're not even planning to talk about it this week.

00:07:59.000 But here's something that, and I say this as a non-Arizonan that is confusing to me, that in the ruling from the state Supreme Court, if I have this correct, so Doug Ducey passes this 15-week bill back in 2022.

00:08:14.000 So even under Dobbs, or even under Roe v. Wade, I guess it was at the time, I think, Dobbs hadn't been finalized yet, that hadn't been issued yet.

00:08:23.000 And so wouldn't this 2022 law supersede the 1854 law?

00:08:31.000 And I guess the state Supreme Court, if I have this correct, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I was talking to someone who's one of those law-talking guys and said, well, essentially, the 2022 bill doesn't include language that says that it supersedes it.

00:08:44.000 And essentially, the state Supreme Court said, look, we essentially say that it's a situation where both laws are now in effect at the same time because of the 2022 law, not including that language.

00:08:56.000 The court didn't want to interpret things into it that were not there and then basically punts it back to the legislature and says, look, you guys passed this stuff.

00:09:05.000 You go fix it.

00:09:07.000 Is that the situation?

00:09:08.000 Because I still don't quite understand why the 2022 law doesn't itself just supersede the original law.

00:09:15.000 Blake, do you have an answer on that?

00:09:18.000 I mean, I literally have the law open right now and I'm checking it.

00:09:21.000 But my guess, frankly, is this was the thing that you saw with pro-life activists in many states, which is obviously pro-life activists want to ban abortion, but they also were aware for 50 years that the Supreme Court has restricted their ability to do that.

00:09:39.000 And so there was always the pro-life push of pass the most pro-life law that will survive a court challenge, try to gradually undermine it by getting the Supreme Court to allow further and further bans.

00:09:51.000 So what you would get in states, I know when I was growing up in South Dakota, they would have things like this, is they would have laws that essentially are: this is the law because of the current Supreme Court situation.

00:10:04.000 If the Supreme Court's ruling were to change completely, if Roe were to go away, we would have a new law come into play.

00:10:11.000 Sometimes they would call these trigger laws, as in, so if they pull the trigger and get rid of Roe, a stricter law comes into play.

00:10:17.000 And that's actually why several other states do have strict abortion laws going right now.

00:10:23.000 And so I suspect that the way the Arizona 15-week ban was constructed is pro-lifers didn't want to repeal the stricter law they had if that suddenly became.

00:10:37.000 And I suspect that's what came into play here that made this happen.

00:10:41.000 Yeah.

00:10:42.000 So what I don't appreciate is some of the conversations I've had around this is punting.

00:10:50.000 Andrew, and you were, you were, you know, some of these conversations.

00:10:52.000 People say, oh, don't worry about it.

00:10:53.000 We'll just kind of figure it out.

00:10:54.000 I think that's foolish.

00:10:56.000 I think it's short-sighted.

00:10:57.000 And I think the Democrats are salivating at the one lane they have to overachieve a dismal record coming into November.

00:11:06.000 Yeah, if you act like this doesn't exist, then you're essentially creating a vacuum that Democrats are going to fill.

00:11:11.000 So you've got to come out with something that at least offers an alternative.

00:11:17.000 And there's a couple of reasons why, Charlie.

00:11:19.000 You know, I think that the Republicans can be guilty of taking the pro-life vote for granted.

00:11:24.000 And what you want is you want something that will inspire the pro-life vote, that will get the activists out and get them on board.

00:11:32.000 I think to your recommendation of a heartbeat bill, this is about the strictest laws that are getting passed.

00:11:38.000 It plays offense on the top.

00:11:39.000 It plays offense.

00:11:40.000 And actually, I mean, What's ironic about the psychology of this is because if nothing gets done, yeah, in theory, you could get the 1864 law, right?

00:11:51.000 But that's not going to happen.

00:11:52.000 Like this, if you do, if you do not have something else on the ballot, guess what's going to happen?

00:11:57.000 You're going to have unlimited late-term abortion because that's the referendum that's already on the ballot in November, right?

00:12:02.000 That's going to pass.

00:12:03.000 If you don't do anything, you're going to have late-term abortions.

00:12:07.000 So the heartbeat bill is about as aggressive as a precedent that we've seen set in the country.

00:12:11.000 We've seen it in Arizona.

00:12:13.000 Texas has something similar.

00:12:14.000 Blake, Jack, you probably know the other states.

00:12:18.000 But this is actually an opportunity to go on the offense, to get excited about it, get inspired by it, and actually, you know, sort of take some of the wind out of the other side's sales.

00:12:27.000 And here's the other thing.

00:12:29.000 And Jack, I'd specifically love your instincts on this, but the fact that Trump came out the day before and preempted that is either really just good politics or it just happened to be a stroke of luck, whether they planned this or not.

00:12:44.000 Knowing what I know about politics, I tend to think it was probably lucky.

00:12:50.000 But, you know, does that give us an opportunity from a messaging standpoint to sort of decouple top of ticket from down ballot issues?

00:12:58.000 For example, can enough voters in the state of Arizona separate the fact that Trump is saying, hey, I want to give it to the states, let the will of the votes, the voters prevail in the state, but I'm still going to pull the lever for Trump.

00:13:13.000 How many in a state like Arizona do you see people voting for maybe a pro-abortion stance, but also pulling the trigger for Trump?

00:13:20.000 20 to 30%.

00:13:22.000 Well, to answer your question, yeah, I think there's a percentage, but let's also point out that it's so even with Donald Trump kind of putting out his statement, which is, you know, it is not as saying it should be at the states.

00:13:35.000 It should be at the state level and saying that he doesn't want to get behind a federal ban.

00:13:38.000 Then, you know, people, you've got people on the pro-life side saying this is essentially pro-choice.

00:13:44.000 You've got other people saying, no, it's pro-life, just not at the federal level.

00:13:48.000 But I would also point out that Donald Trump isn't the only candidate on the ballot because there are definitely going to be two or potentially more than two candidates that are pro-choice.

00:13:58.000 So you've got Joe Biden, who's pro-choice.

00:14:01.000 Then you're going to have RFK, who is a, who's polling at, I'd have to pull up the latest Arizona poll to see, but he's polling at 12, 13% in a lot of these swing states.

00:14:10.000 And then you're also going to have Jill Stein.

00:14:12.000 You're going to have Cornell West.

00:14:13.000 So there's also, so it's not just a possibility of Trump pulling over some of that vote, but also how much of that vote is going to be split across these presidential candidates is something we're going to have to look at.

00:14:25.000 And look, I was texting with some pastors about this, and I can read a room really well.

00:14:25.000 Yeah.

00:14:30.000 And I've been saying this, I've been warning people about this.

00:14:32.000 If I go and speak and I talk about the reversal of Roe versus Wade, I get golf claps at churches.

00:14:37.000 If I say that we need to ban transgender care, enthusiastic response.

00:14:43.000 If I say that we need to deport illegals, cheering.

00:14:46.000 But there is a huge discomfort with rank and file Christians with the idea of banning abortion.

00:14:53.000 It's just too radical for Christians.

00:14:55.000 Or it's not.

00:14:56.000 Well, I think.

00:14:57.000 Yeah, go ahead.

00:14:58.000 I just think that's a colossal failure on the part of Christian leaders.

00:14:58.000 Go ahead.

00:15:03.000 Of course it is.

00:15:04.000 I think certainly within the Catholic Church, it's well known that there's a big split where you have some priests who are very adamant on it and you have some who are terrified to ever talk about it.

00:15:15.000 And morally, I think that's completely unacceptable.

00:15:18.000 And I think it has to be regarded as unacceptable in Protestant churches as well.

00:15:23.000 If, you know, if a pastor is going to be brave enough to defy a COVID ban, if they're going to be brave enough to oppose child mutilation, why can't they be brave enough to say, yeah, if you're a Christian, you have to regard abortion as extremely wrong and extremely evil and something that we need to get rid of.

00:15:40.000 That's just less than five.

00:15:41.000 And you have to say it all the time because otherwise people don't hear it.

00:15:44.000 And it's less than 5%, right?

00:15:45.000 It's less than 5% of pastors that would be saying that.

00:15:49.000 Well, yeah.

00:15:49.000 And I think you had a conversation with Matt Walsh that was really, really good on this.

00:15:53.000 And I encourage people to go back on the podcast and listen to it.

00:15:56.000 But, you know, we are constantly hounded as conservatives to retreat on these issues.

00:16:02.000 We don't have a choice right now.

00:16:04.000 We have to go on offense.

00:16:06.000 Yeah, no, we have to.

00:16:07.000 But here's the thing.

00:16:08.000 They told us they told us no proliferation on immigration.

00:16:11.000 Yeah.

00:16:11.000 They told us we had to give amnesty.

00:16:13.000 To win the votes, we had to go give amnesty.

00:16:15.000 Trump proved everybody wrong.

00:16:17.000 Now, I understand that abortion is a different issue than immigration.

00:16:22.000 And, you know, the trans issue is different.

00:16:24.000 Guns are different.

00:16:26.000 But at the same time, I do believe that if the conservative movement loses its moral clarity on the issue of abortion, we will pay for it tenfold.

00:16:36.000 That being said, this is why I like your idea so much.

00:16:40.000 If we put together an alternative, a heartbeat bill, not only are you going to give the base something to get excited about, you still might lose in the polls.

00:16:51.000 And if you lose the polls, then we have an opportunity to say, guess what?

00:16:54.000 We have more convincing to do, more persuading to do.

00:16:57.000 We know we have.

00:16:57.000 But hopefully, hopefully, that could, if we're going to lose a little bit on abortion, maybe we're going to make it up a little bit by just offering an alternative.

00:17:05.000 And to Jack's point, I think looking at the polls, Jack, RFK is polling at an average of 10.4% in Arizona.

00:17:12.000 Right now, the numbers are, according to the Hill election HQ, 42.5% average for Trump, 36.6% average for Biden, and 10.4% average for RFK.

00:17:24.000 And I completely believe that with our ballot chase in Arizona, which we're trying to get like hundreds of thousands of votes in this ballot chase, we're hiring like crazy right now.

00:17:35.000 So this is a big operation.

00:17:37.000 If you couple that with RFK, you offer an alternative, you give something people to get excited about.

00:17:44.000 This, I mean, there is, do not press panic yet.

00:17:48.000 There's an urgency, but we can win Arizona.

00:17:50.000 There needs to be, and I don't think the legislature is going to do this.

00:17:52.000 What I think the Arizona legislature is likely to do based on just public reporting is I bet they're likely to capitulate and put something on Katie Hobbs' desk as some sort of bargain, like a 26-week limit.

00:18:04.000 That would be a mistake.

00:18:05.000 Or a 15-week limit to reinstitute what DoC had and only have the term status election.

00:18:10.000 Yeah.

00:18:11.000 What about go ahead?

00:18:13.000 What about just a compromise to say they're going to, and again, I'm going to come back to this because the heartbeat bill, that's a ton of work and a lot of time that we frankly don't don't have.

00:18:22.000 I'm not against it, but I'm saying that is that what about the compromise to just say we're, we're going to, we want the 2022 law to go in because that's the one we all voted for at the time.

00:18:31.000 Well, yeah, the 2022 law will, the Democrats will probably block that, though.

00:18:35.000 That's the point is that some of the Republicans are not going to, this is what, and I would love to see polling.

00:18:41.000 I like America's actually becoming more pro-abortion.

00:18:46.000 This is not a big surprise.

00:18:48.000 This is something I think, if there's a big failure of the pro-life movement, I think it was failing to anticipate this, but it's understandable because it happens a lot.

00:18:56.000 It happens so often, in fact, that this is something that political scholars wrote about in the past.

00:19:02.000 They called it the hollow hope, which is generally people, like activist groups, see a Supreme Court win as this culmination that will like burst.

00:19:12.000 You know, once they get their win at the Supreme Court, they'll get everything else they want too.

00:19:16.000 But controversial Supreme Court rulings usually create backlash.

00:19:20.000 If you want past examples, when you got like those pro-crime rulings from the Supreme Court in the 60s, Miranda versus Arizona, the backlash was we got tough on crime laws that massively increase criminal penalties, you know, how long people went to jail.

00:19:35.000 And so what you see after Dobbs is, you know, it's not a total wipeout, but you're seeing maybe like a 10% shift in terms of who identifies as pro-choice, who wants abortion to be legal in all or almost all circumstances.

00:19:52.000 Basically, I'd say you'd see like a 10 to 15% of people who in the past were signaling they were somewhat pro-life as like a tribal affiliation.

00:20:02.000 And then now that it's a live political issue, they're going, actually, just kidding, just kidding.

00:20:06.000 Please don't change things.

00:20:08.000 If I get my girlfriend pregnant, I want to make it go away.

00:20:11.000 And that just seems to be the situation as it is right now.

00:20:16.000 But I do agree.

00:20:17.000 I don't, I certainly, as someone who like you guys cares a lot about the pro-life movement, there's several things in play.

00:20:24.000 First of all, it's a very powerful moral issue.

00:20:28.000 And it's one that is kind of abstract.

00:20:32.000 You know, the unborn are kind of difficult to see for the most part.

00:20:36.000 It does require a certain sort of abstract moral reasoning.

00:20:40.000 And as a result, it's very dependent on people getting really, really fired up about it.

00:20:44.000 And so it's a difficult thing to handle because the only way we're ever going to get wins on it is to really whip people up to care a lot about it.

00:20:53.000 And the inevitable side effect of that is we're going to have people who care a lot about it, who are absolutists on the issue, who reject all compromise on the issue.

00:21:04.000 And if you want a good comparison, look at the abolitionist movement in the 1800s.

00:21:09.000 You would have, you know, people, abolitionists would attack Abraham Lincoln because he was not a true enough believer on abolition.

00:21:16.000 William Garrison, the founder of The Liberator, he would say, we need to throw out the Constitution.

00:21:22.000 We should, the North should secede from the Union because the Union has legal slavery.

00:21:26.000 You'd have, you know, you'd have John Brown who would try to, you know, kill people and start slave uprisings.

00:21:32.000 You would have these right radicals on the far end of the issue because that's how passionate it made people.

00:21:40.000 And it is going to be like, I don't want to, I think the big hazard right now is there are forces within the Republican Party that want the pro-life issue to go away.

00:21:52.000 They've never cared about it.

00:21:53.000 They find these holy rollers annoying.

00:21:56.000 They think they're the ones holding the party back from getting everything they want on taxes or whatever.

00:22:02.000 And they want to get rid of them and they think they can.

00:22:04.000 And this has happened in other countries.

00:22:06.000 So as someone who cares a lot about that issue, I do think we have to be aware that the big hazard right now is we lose this election.

00:22:14.000 They blame it all on the pro-lifers and we never ever get a pro-life bill introduced at the federal level or in any non-super red state again.

00:22:23.000 But Blake, the first part is actually a bigger hazard, which is the loss, right?

00:22:28.000 And we still have time to make sure we don't lose on the political issue.

00:22:32.000 So, Blake, in your wisdom politically, what can be done, if anything, to make sure we're not catastrophically obliterated on this issue and somehow 2024 becomes a referendum again on abortion as the country is collapsing.

00:22:49.000 Blake, what do you think we could do?

00:22:52.000 I think President Trump's statement on Monday was a very good start where he manages to say, I am pro-life.

00:23:00.000 I like the ruling that we did with Dobbs.

00:23:04.000 But at the same time, I am not going to come in and impose a law that is massively opposed by a large majority of Americans.

00:23:13.000 That's essentially what he's saying.

00:23:14.000 When he says, I'm leaving it to the states, he's saying, I am not going to come in and impose something only 30% or 20% or 15% of the public will back.

00:23:27.000 And I think at the federal level, you just have to say that.

00:23:30.000 Anytime they bring up abortion, you say, you know, an abortion ban is not on the ballot for president because President Trump says it's not on the ballot.

00:23:38.000 And so the only thing you can do is then, if you want to have, you know, the moral counterattack, you say the only person who's making abortion a huge federal issue is Joe Biden, and he wants it legal until birth with taxpayer funding, all of that, like the most extreme possible one, the other way.

00:23:55.000 And he wants to get rid of all choice on the issue.

00:23:58.000 And I think that's how you can counterattack to it.

00:24:00.000 You say there is no abortion ban on the ballot or president.

00:24:05.000 At the state level, I think that's a tougher one because it goes by state.

00:24:12.000 The Arizona situation is going to be complicated.

00:24:14.000 Like you, Charlie, I like the law.

00:24:18.000 I don't know that, I don't really know whether, you know, introducing some other vote as an alternative is the best strategy because you're really just, you're tripling down on, oh, there's all this abortion stuff on the ballot.

00:24:32.000 And then there's going to be reporting comparing, you know, the law with this middle thing with what the pro-abortionists want.

00:24:40.000 And it's already going to be on the ballot.

00:24:41.000 Well, I was going to say it's already on the ballot and this ruling just made it 10 times bigger.

00:24:46.000 It made it 10 times bigger.

00:24:47.000 So now every single young woman in Arizona will 100% vote Democrat out of fear because they're told to because there's an 1864 law that's going to put your best friend.

00:24:58.000 It's easy to blame.

00:24:59.000 It's easy to blame young women, but truthfully, I feel what really drives the problem is there's a lot of conservative leaning middle-aged women, you know, people who live in the suburbs in general.

00:25:11.000 Like we said, those women who go to, well, I don't even think it's actually, it's not overall in the polling on the issue, the split between men and women is not dramatic, but it's probably, if you're looking for women who would vote Republican and then have decided to switch their votes just this election over abortion, I would say the person you're looking for is like a upper middle class suburban woman.

00:25:35.000 So let me just say they're swing voters in general.

00:25:37.000 It's very simple.

00:25:38.000 The abortion referendum, as it is right now in Arizona, will pass and it'll probably pass by 10 points.

00:25:43.000 Therefore, if you want Donald Trump to become president, you need people that want to vote for no restrictions on abortion to also vote for Trump.

00:25:51.000 Period.

00:25:52.000 Period.

00:25:52.000 There is no other path.

00:25:54.000 The abortion referendum will pass based on polling.

00:25:54.000 Yeah.

00:25:59.000 They have so much money.

00:26:00.000 They have paid circulators and this Supreme Court decision will make it like way more likely to pass.

00:26:05.000 Yeah.

00:26:06.000 Like way more likely.

00:26:07.000 They're thrilled.

00:26:08.000 And so the question is, Charlie, yes.

00:26:10.000 So let me ask you that question, right?

00:26:13.000 You know, you guys are Arizona.

00:26:16.000 I'm from the other part of the country.

00:26:18.000 So are there people, enough people like who Blake is describing who might be for this initiative, but also decide that they, I mean, I mean, think about it, right?

00:26:31.000 You, you say, you, this is the ballot initiative.

00:26:33.000 You can, I'm for the ballot initiative because of X, Y, and Z.

00:26:36.000 But on issues like the economy, immigration, inflation, which is crazy right now, I think President Trump should be president.

00:26:44.000 So basically, I guess what I'm saying is, are President Trump's statements this week and his big statement earlier this week enough to separate himself from that issue?

00:26:52.000 We don't know, but that's where that's going to be the question.

00:26:55.000 Joe Biden's going to try to run as well as the ballot referendum.

00:26:59.000 Yeah, but that's just to point out, there are states where we lost votes related to abortion where we still won other offices in the 2022 midterms.

00:27:12.000 And that's even at this direct state, state level.

00:27:15.000 So I think if you just insist on Trump's statement, you just repeat Trump's statement every time it comes up at the federal level.

00:27:22.000 You say, this is what Trump said.

00:27:24.000 There is not like the Arizona referendum, whatever way you feel about it, will have no difference on what the president does after this election.

00:27:34.000 And I think if you're very adamant on that point, you have the added advantage that you can still call out the really radical stuff that Democrats want.

00:27:42.000 Because again, Democrats want federal funding for all of this.

00:27:47.000 They want to make it illegal for doctors to like not perform abortions or not be, you know, not have to learn how to do abortions.

00:27:54.000 They want all of this insane, deranged stuff.

00:27:56.000 And it is good to have the impulse to hit back on that.

00:28:01.000 But I do think the most straightforward way is every election that has the presidency on it heavily revolves around that presidential vote.

00:28:08.000 And so if you're able to say the presidential vote is not a referendum on abortion, say it over and over again.

00:28:14.000 The presidential vote is not a referendum on abortion because President Trump is not going to do this thing.

00:28:19.000 Then you actually even spread that out to other offices because how people vote on president is by far the most important determinant of how they vote on Arizona.

00:28:27.000 And there is a lot of evidence and data to show that in states like Arizona, people will split their tickets and they will have nuanced voting patterns down the ballot, right?

00:28:35.000 Well, yeah.

00:28:36.000 And I agree to the extent that his messaging that we're able to decouple this from a referendum on abortion state by state by state, including Arizona, so that people split tickets, a good indicator of just how politically savvy, even if the pro-life groups were grumbling, of how savvy his messaging was on this on Eclipse Day, on Rapture Day, was that they were really quiet about it.

00:29:02.000 The biggest critique of Trump's statement on abortion was he's lying.

00:29:07.000 We don't believe him.

00:29:08.000 Right?

00:29:09.000 That was the biggest critique.

00:29:10.000 He's lying.

00:29:12.000 So they knew that he didn't.

00:29:13.000 It's not going to work.

00:29:14.000 The best part is that won't work.

00:29:16.000 Like a big part, one of the best advantages we have is not just that they want to run against abortion, but that Democrats want to say Trump is a theocrat, a Christian nationalist thing.

00:29:28.000 And our best advantage is nobody is going to believe that because the idea that Donald Trump is a theocrat is absurd.

00:29:35.000 Charlie, are we going to lose any of the pro-life votes?

00:29:40.000 We could.

00:29:40.000 But I mean, the question is, how big a number and are they really going to go, what are they going to do?

00:29:45.000 Vote for Kennedy, go third party?

00:29:47.000 I mean, that's what's so insane about all of this.

00:29:49.000 I'll read you a text from a pastor and it's just the way it is.

00:29:52.000 I think they'll calm down.

00:29:53.000 But he says, in good faith, I cannot get me or my congregation.

00:29:57.000 This is a Battleground State pastor.

00:29:58.000 In good faith, I will not or my get my congregation to vote for Trump as long as he continues to say that Arizona and these other states need to change their abortion laws.

00:30:07.000 Full ban on abortion, zero compromise, end of story.

00:30:12.000 Yeah.

00:30:13.000 It's almost.

00:30:14.000 Yeah.

00:30:14.000 Go ahead, Jack.

00:30:16.000 I was just going to say, what's interesting about this, and Blake, you hit on the same thing I was thinking about, was that this really is, and what this law does is it provides a kind of the original law.

00:30:28.000 So the pre-Civil War law that just kicked in in Arizona, this is like the Joy Reid version of what she says the Republican Party today represents and what the conservative movement today represents.

00:30:39.000 This is the Christian nationalism thing, right?

00:30:42.000 Because if you watch Joy Reed, she claims as though, and this is something that's amazing that the left always does this, and it goes back to like their version of Marxism, is that, you know, they always claim that the right is totally in power, that, you know, it isn't that the left has been in power since the 1960s.

00:30:57.000 No, no, no, it's the right is in power and they're going to impose the, what's that show, the handmaiden's tail is going to be imposed if we don't fight harder and that it's, it's just behind every corner.

00:31:07.000 It's right around every tree.

00:31:09.000 And normally it's just kind of silly because it never gains any traction because anyone in the real world can see that, you know, Trump is just isn't like that.

00:31:16.000 He's not a theocrat.

00:31:17.000 But what this law does is it gives them something to point at tangibly in the real world that actually feeds into their conspiracy theory about the Christian theocracy that is waiting in the wings to take over the country.

00:31:34.000 That's exactly why they love this thing so much and why they're satiating over it.

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00:32:57.000 Okay, next topic, guys.

00:32:59.000 Next topic is, so this is a video that's been seen last I checked about 13 million times.

00:33:07.000 It's Tucker Carlson responding.

00:33:10.000 He has a new video out about the war in Gaza where he interviews a Lutheran pastor.

00:33:18.000 I guess they have those in Palestine.

00:33:21.000 But he interviews a Lutheran pastor about the situation for Christians in the Holy Land.

00:33:28.000 To get a sense of the tone, how about we play number 94?

00:33:33.000 And in October, a Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip was hit by an airstrike.

00:33:36.000 We're showing the video now.

00:33:38.000 The church is in ruins.

00:33:39.000 At least 17 people were killed that day.

00:33:42.000 And again, that was hardly the first time that fighting in that region killed Christians.

00:33:45.000 You'll remember the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem almost 20 years ago.

00:33:50.000 Oh, King.

00:33:51.000 Sorry about that.

00:33:51.000 I guess we lost the second half of that.

00:33:53.000 But the basic idea is if you watch this whole video, it's about 42 minutes long, but the tone of the video from Tucker, who's been probably the most popular voice on the right for, the pundit voice on the right for five years now, five, six, seven years now, is it's very, very critical of the Israeli government and essentially very sympathetic to the Palestinian side.

00:34:19.000 He asks a lot of questions where, you know, you can just tell by Tucker's tenor and such that he's very critical of, you know, the way Christian lawmakers in the United States support Israel and, you know, their approach to the entire thing.

00:34:34.000 So it obviously plays into what we've been discussing over the last few months that there is this very clear shift happening on the right on how on the unity of the right support of Israel and how they feel about it in general.

00:34:48.000 And I guess it stood out to me as a little bit jarring.

00:34:52.000 It's hard to imagine that we got to this point compared to just, you know, three, four years ago with all the discussion of them moving the embassy to Jerusalem and all of that.

00:35:02.000 Yeah, I can't.

00:35:02.000 And we have more clips from the interview, too.

00:35:05.000 Let's play another clip.

00:35:05.000 I haven't watched the whole thing yet.

00:35:07.000 Okay, let's do clip 90.

00:35:10.000 How free are Christians to practice Christianity in Israel?

00:35:16.000 We cannot deny that there are many freedoms in the state of Israel.

00:35:21.000 Yes.

00:35:22.000 But it's not as free as people think.

00:35:26.000 Do you know that evangelicals as churches are not officially recognized in Israel?

00:35:32.000 Not recognized by the government by the government of Israel.

00:35:36.000 Evangelism is illegal in Israel.

00:35:39.000 And I'm sorry.

00:35:41.000 Can I ask you to stop there?

00:35:43.000 What does that mean?

00:35:43.000 Evangelism is illegal. in Israel?

00:35:46.000 It's against the law to evangelize in Israel.

00:35:49.000 Yeah, I don't really know what he means by that.

00:35:51.000 I mean, I've been to churches in Israel.

00:35:53.000 I feel like I've evangelized in Israel.

00:35:57.000 It's a complicated thing.

00:35:58.000 So this is what it caused a lot of, obviously, I don't know.

00:36:04.000 It is a very broad statement.

00:36:05.000 So what it is, you will sometimes see it said by people of a certain persuasion.

00:36:10.000 They will say Christian missionary activity in Israel is illegal.

00:36:15.000 And this is not true.

00:36:16.000 You are allowed to convert to Christianity in Israel.

00:36:19.000 You are allowed to promote Christianity in Israel.

00:36:22.000 Now, what is also true is, one, Israel, obviously, unlike us, has control of its borders, and there is a history of them being like they don't like to let in people that they think are just going to be proselytizing in Israel.

00:36:39.000 They find it annoying for people to do that.

00:36:42.000 And a lot of you know, a lot of activist groups in Israel dislike it.

00:36:47.000 A few years ago, there was a push to ban Christian missionary work in Israel.

00:36:53.000 That law was retracted.

00:36:55.000 It got a lot of attention in the United States, so it didn't pass, but that was introduced.

00:37:00.000 When he says that they're not recognized, I look into this, and this is true in a technical sense.

00:37:05.000 Israel sort of has denominations that it officially recognizes as churches.

00:37:11.000 This matters a lot because, for example, marriages in Israel are handled through religious bodies.

00:37:17.000 They don't have civil marriage in Israel.

00:37:20.000 So they recognize 10 Christian churches in Israel, like Catholic Church, Greek Orthodox, Armenian Orthodox, Armenian Catholic, a few others.

00:37:29.000 And they don't have an evangelical church that they recognize.

00:37:33.000 That said, there are you are allowed to be an evangelical in Israel and you are allowed to practice it in whatever manner you wish.

00:37:43.000 But it is true that it is not recognized the same way that other faith groups are in Israel.

00:37:50.000 And that's kind of what stands out in this interview: there's a mix of stuff that is true with stuff that is exaggerated and I think can be maliciously reframed and often is by people who dislike Israel for a million other reasons.

00:38:05.000 Yeah, I mean, but I've been to evangelical churches in Israel.

00:38:09.000 It's the Jerusalem church, the Jerusalem Baptist Church, not to mention the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.

00:38:14.000 So let's be honest, Israel knows who their allies are.

00:38:17.000 But exactly.

00:38:18.000 Well, but let's just also, what I don't like about that clip of I don't know that guy that was saying, if you're a 20-year-old serious Christian, you've never been to Israel, watching that clip, you think Israel is hostile to Christians.

00:38:30.000 My personal experience is the opposite.

00:38:32.000 I got like convoys and like really well.

00:38:36.000 They know who their allies are in the states.

00:38:38.000 They know that evangelicals are their number one.

00:38:40.000 What Blake has said is also true, though, is that there is a fear that too much proselytizing.

00:38:45.000 Well, that there could be a major come to Jesus movement.

00:38:49.000 Well, they're Jewish state.

00:38:50.000 They see themselves as a Jewish state.

00:38:52.000 So they see, but Torah observant Bible-believing Jews, Old Testament, are some of the easiest converts to Christianity.

00:39:02.000 And there is, and I don't know you have to fact-check me on this, but there is something called the forbidden verse, which is Isaiah 53, which is, I don't know if it's illegal, but it's really not.

00:39:11.000 You're not supposed to share it very much, which is like the gateway to Christianity because it is the most accurate.

00:39:18.000 What does it say?

00:39:19.000 It's by his stripes.

00:39:20.000 Oh, look, Charlie, come on.

00:39:22.000 You can't just leave us hanging, man.

00:39:24.000 You were pierced by your transgressions out of a root, a root out of dry ground.

00:39:29.000 You came.

00:39:30.000 It basically tells the entire from incarnation to compassion to ministry.

00:39:36.000 He grew up before him like a tender shoot and like a root out of dry ground.

00:39:40.000 He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

00:39:46.000 He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering and familiar with pain, like one whom people hide their faces.

00:39:53.000 He was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

00:39:57.000 Surely he took up our pain and bore our sufferings, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

00:40:03.000 But he was pierced for our transgressions and he was crushed for our iniquities.

00:40:07.000 The punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.

00:40:13.000 And yeah, let's go.

00:40:15.000 Let's go.

00:40:16.000 And it says there's a website called oneisrael.org, one for Israel, Israel53, the forbidden chapter.

00:40:23.000 In fact, there's a YouTube channel that I used to watch of Messianic Jews that would walk around the streets of Israel and approach Jews and ask them, Do you know about Isaiah 53?

00:40:34.000 And it's a very successful way to spread the gospel.

00:40:37.000 Well, that you know they know this for sure.

00:40:39.000 No, of course.

00:40:40.000 And so what Blake is saying is true, but it's also this guy that went on Tucker's show.

00:40:45.000 It's a complete misrepresentation of the reality of Israel.

00:40:48.000 Jack.

00:40:50.000 Well, I'll just throw out two one as a point, and then a question for Charlie.

00:40:55.000 You know, and just in case there's anyone listening to us that isn't aware of this, which I always try to think of like the guy in the back who has no idea about the subject material.

00:41:04.000 Isaiah is not part of what you would consider the Christian Bible.

00:41:08.000 Isaiah is part of the Old Testament.

00:41:12.000 Well, it's the New Testament or the Old Testament.

00:41:14.000 It's all the Christian Bible.

00:41:15.000 But yeah, I know, you're right.

00:41:16.000 Old Testament versus New Testament.

00:41:18.000 It's part of the word.

00:41:19.000 What Jews would consider the Christian Bible.

00:41:22.000 Correct.

00:41:23.000 So, but, Charlie, this is what I wanted to ask you, though.

00:41:23.000 That's what I'm saying.

00:41:26.000 When you say, you know, Torah-believing Jews are the most likely conversion.

00:41:33.000 Why is that?

00:41:34.000 Well, why is that?

00:41:35.000 Well, it's because Jesus is a fulfillment of all the Old Testament prophecy.

00:41:39.000 And they're waiting for the Messiah.

00:41:40.000 And many Bible-believing Torah observant Tanakh understanding Jews don't have actually never read the New Testament scriptures.

00:41:48.000 And when they do, I've actually been able, the Holy Spirit led him to Jesus, but I've seen a Jew become a Messianic Christian.

00:41:56.000 I don't know if you ever have Andrew.

00:41:57.000 It's an amazing thing.

00:41:59.000 I know a bunch of Messianic Jews.

00:42:01.000 When they tell you the story, when they first read Matthew or John, which are the two best gospels, they start crying.

00:42:08.000 Well, I can't say best.

00:42:10.000 No, best gospels for Jews.

00:42:11.000 I see.

00:42:11.000 Oh, I see.

00:42:12.000 Matthew is the Jewish gospel.

00:42:13.000 No, no, no.

00:42:13.000 I was like, I like them.

00:42:14.000 Matthew is the Jewish gospel.

00:42:15.000 100%.

00:42:16.000 You're 100%.

00:42:17.000 Mark is not.

00:42:18.000 But guys, this whole 53 just keeps going.

00:42:23.000 They're all pretty.

00:42:24.000 Look at all of these prophecies that it touched.

00:42:29.000 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth.

00:42:32.000 Like, that's a prophecy right there.

00:42:34.000 Remember, this was written like 1,500 years before Jesus.

00:42:37.000 Yeah, he was led like a lamb before the slaughter.

00:42:41.000 You know, yet who of his generation protested?

00:42:45.000 Oh, he was assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death, right?

00:42:51.000 Was it Nicodemus?

00:42:53.000 I mean, like, there's so much stuff here.

00:42:53.000 Yeah.

00:42:56.000 Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer.

00:42:59.000 And though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, there you go.

00:43:04.000 Offering for sin.

00:43:05.000 Exactly.

00:43:05.000 So Isaiah 53 is like the nuclear bomb chapter.

00:43:09.000 Yeah.

00:43:10.000 His wounds we are healed is literally.

00:43:14.000 I mean, I don't know if you could find any phrase that better sums up Christianity.

00:43:19.000 The actual miracle of the resurrection, the miracle of the atonement, the miracle of Calvary, all of it, right?

00:43:26.000 That sentence right there.

00:43:27.000 And it's found in Isaiah.

00:43:29.000 People need to understand that.

00:43:30.000 So if I would have had this guy on my show, I would have asked him whatever his name is.

00:43:35.000 I would have said, hey, like, why didn't you mention that Bethlehem is largely controlled by the Palestinian Authority?

00:43:43.000 So this was brought up a lot.

00:43:45.000 And I don't think it's the own a lot of people did because at least in the interview with Tucker, he's not saying like, oh, we face a lot of oppression in our day-to-day religious life in Bethlehem with the implication that Israel's behind that.

00:44:00.000 What he does talk about is he talks about the difficulty in going to Christian holy sites because obviously Israel has, again, they control their borders.

00:44:10.000 So they control, you know, they have the barrier with West Bank.

00:44:12.000 There's not a lot of free movement across that barrier.

00:44:15.000 You need an individual permit to do it.

00:44:19.000 So there's a lot of complaints about that, that they can't go to East Jerusalem easily because Israel's basically annexed that part of it.

00:44:27.000 So he talks about stuff like that.

00:44:28.000 He talks about the impact of the war.

00:44:30.000 He talks about financial support for Israel by Christian churches and the comparative, in his view, like lack of support for Christian sites.

00:44:40.000 Tucker actually complains.

00:44:41.000 I don't think we have it as a clip, but Tucker complains in the interview about seeing, I think, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre and how shabby it is, that he thinks a lot of the churches, Christian churches in Israel kind of look like dumps and that he's upset that Christians don't seem to fret about that in comparison to other things that they financially from the 300 AD.

00:45:07.000 It's about a thousand years old.

00:45:08.000 There's also another 1700 years old.

00:45:11.000 But there's the current building is about it.

00:45:13.000 And has nothing to do necessarily directly because of the government.

00:45:17.000 It's actually because it's and I know Constantine used to be the Temple of Venus and he changed that.

00:45:23.000 And so the current building is about a thousand years old.

00:45:25.000 There's been a church there.

00:45:26.000 It's quite old.

00:45:27.000 But the issue there, the issue there is it's because it's joint, it's basically joint controlled by a variety of churches.

00:45:34.000 So the Orthodox, the Roman Catholics.

00:45:38.000 And so it shifts, it shifts who's in control of a certain time.

00:45:41.000 So basically, and this is an issue with a number of the holy sites where, yes, it's under the Israeli government, but it actually has more to do with an issue between the churches, people arguing over how it should be done, who should pay for it, all sorts of different things.

00:46:00.000 Not to mention the various arguments between the Catholics and Orthodox, believe me, you want to get into that.

00:46:06.000 But so it really is a management issue because it's shared jointly between these organizations that have so much differences of opinion.

00:46:15.000 I specifically asked that question when I was there.

00:46:18.000 It's not like, no, I agree.

00:46:19.000 Like, I wish that it was in better upkeep for sure.

00:46:23.000 I certainly agree with that.

00:46:24.000 But I don't know that you can lay the blame for that specifically on just the Israeli government.

00:46:29.000 There's a whole ton of issues there.

00:46:31.000 Let me just say just because we said his name and we haven't the name of the guy that Tucker interviews is Munther Isaac.

00:46:40.000 And so I just wanted to get that out there because we've always said we don't know his name, but it's Munther Isaac.

00:46:44.000 He's an evangelical Lutheran pastor.

00:46:47.000 So I think he grew up Orthodox.

00:46:50.000 There's not really a lot of Lutherans native to Palestine.

00:46:54.000 Yeah, and I was just asking, like, how's religious liberty in Jordan for Christians?

00:46:58.000 Like, not great.

00:47:00.000 Okay, it's fine.

00:47:01.000 I bet Jordan's better.

00:47:02.000 Yeah, there's always, there's always this element.

00:47:04.000 This is what gets learned about it.

00:47:07.000 Christians in Egypt.

00:47:08.000 There are millions of Christians in Egypt and not treated well, though.

00:47:12.000 A harder time and more danger than Christians do in Israel.

00:47:16.000 They're not treated well.

00:47:16.000 So I want to just say this.

00:47:17.000 I had a lot of people text me about this, really upset about this interview, really fired up about it.

00:47:22.000 A lot of pro-Israel folks.

00:47:24.000 And my response is the same as, look, you know where I like Israel.

00:47:28.000 I've had a great time there.

00:47:29.000 But you guys have to understand, you're losing the American people, right, Andrew?

00:47:33.000 And like, I'm trying to tell, but I'm not getting through to people when I say that.

00:47:38.000 And the Israel strategy is kind of like, we're white knuckling, we don't care, I guess.

00:47:43.000 It's using a lot of like coercive force is I think the way it feels like, right?

00:47:48.000 Like the ADL up to its own tricks.

00:47:50.000 But now they, you know, they, they feel like the conservatives and the liberal Jews are kind of bound together after October 7th.

00:47:57.000 But yeah, I agree.

00:47:58.000 I mean, there's no, there's no getting around the fact that as you go from older to younger, the support for Israel wanes, right?

00:48:08.000 I personally watched some of these clips.

00:48:10.000 I did not watch the full thing, didn't have time, but I've watched a number of the clips now just before the show.

00:48:16.000 And a lot of the issues I bring up, I actually have a lot of sympathy for Israel's perspective, right?

00:48:21.000 If I was not a Christian and there was all these Christians that wanted to come visit my holy sites that were in my land and I was the one Jewish nation on planet Earth, I'd keep a live eye on if they were trying to convert everybody.

00:48:33.000 Now, as a Christian, I think it's pretty great.

00:48:36.000 Like, I hope a bunch of Jews become Christians.

00:48:37.000 I think that'd be great.

00:48:38.000 But I certainly understand their position of being watchful of it.

00:48:41.000 Even this Lutheran, evangelical Lutheran pastor, you have to assume everybody on that side of the border wants you dead.

00:48:50.000 That's on them.

00:48:52.000 And so, yeah, if you could just fake being a Christian and then you get through, like imagine how many Christians would all of a sudden appear out of thin air on the Jordan side, right?

00:49:02.000 In the West Bank.

00:49:03.000 So I have a lot of sympathy for Israel, even as I'm hearing this.

00:49:08.000 But Charlie, you're totally right.

00:49:10.000 In general, this is a larger cultural movement.

00:49:14.000 And it makes me sad to your point, Blake.

00:49:18.000 I think a lot of people are using other grievances they have against Israel and they're attaching it to some of this stuff, whether or not you could have a really reasonable conversation and understand where Israel's coming from.

00:49:27.000 They're attaching other grievances.

00:49:28.000 They're reading into it what they already think about Israel.

00:49:33.000 And I think it's more endemic of the drift that we've seen even in some conservative circles.

00:49:38.000 Jack, really quickly.

00:49:39.000 I got to talk about coffee.

00:49:40.000 Jack, really quick.

00:49:41.000 Yeah.

00:49:42.000 Yeah.

00:49:42.000 No, I'll just throw out there that, you know, this, this has been one of those things where I think in the social media era, people are getting more information and direct information from battlefields and from places that, you know, a lot of, a lot of the times in the past, they thought had been kind of settled.

00:50:00.000 But then all of a sudden you'll get something like, you know, a guy, like a congressman, former Congressman Justin Amash, right?

00:50:06.000 So he's Palestinian, but he's, I believe, Coptic.

00:50:11.000 So his family is Christian.

00:50:13.000 And his family, as far as I know, was associated with one of these churches that was hit in a strike that was caught in the crossfire and one of these things.

00:50:22.000 He had someone who's like in his extended family was killed in this.

00:50:25.000 And so the power of that kind of thing going out on social media is 10 times more powerful than anything anyone has ever considered before from this area, because usually they just hear like, oh, you know, Israel good, Palestinians bad.

00:50:38.000 And so I think the impact of that to what you guys are saying is something that completely hasn't been addressed.

00:50:44.000 And there's so many blanket, you know, throwing out labels there of, oh, you're anti-Semitic if you criticize this.

00:50:50.000 Oh, you're anti-Semitic if you bring this up.

00:50:52.000 And it's like, well, wait, you know, people didn't even know that there were Christians in Gaza to begin with.

00:50:57.000 And I think that's where the issue comes from.

00:50:59.000 Been so detrimental, I will say, a lot of the overreaction.

00:51:02.000 Like, you know, Charlie, you've been called anti-Semitic in this, which is which, if you know, Charlie Kirk for seven years, I've been working with Charlie for, I guess, seven years now.

00:51:12.000 I, you are the most you send 150 kids to Israel every year.

00:51:16.000 Like, I'm under the Shabbats, yeah.

00:51:18.000 Like, I read the Torah and you send out like all our campus campuses through Turning Point USA have activism kids that are anyways.

00:51:26.000 The crazy thing is the fact that they would dare serious people on the internet, or at least formerly considered serious people.

00:51:33.000 Let me go even further.

00:51:34.000 There was an article in the Washington Times that said, I must be displaced as CEO of Turning Point USA.

00:51:39.000 Yes, I'm not kidding.

00:51:40.000 I remember vile.

00:51:42.000 I'm a threat to Jewry around the world.

00:51:45.000 The damage that this has done.

00:51:48.000 Now, I want to at least extend an Olive Branch that October 7th is extremely disruptive.

00:51:55.000 I've been resolutely pro-Israel, despite the names they're calling me.

00:51:59.000 But some of the weird overreaction and stuff that we've all observed, if you're not Jewish, I think we have to, you know, try our best to say, listen, what they went through was existential to them.

00:52:10.000 And so there are going to be reactions that don't necessarily make logical sense.

00:52:13.000 They're only emotional.

00:52:14.000 So I'm trying to give room for that.

00:52:17.000 But what the fact that somebody like Charlie Kirk could be called an anti-Semite, Jack, to your point, I'm just saying, like, this has been so detrimental to their ability to consolidate support in traditional places where they've had.

00:52:33.000 I've said this story publicly, and Andrew, you've just kind of mentioned it.

00:52:38.000 And, you know, it was when you talk about sending kids to Israel.

00:52:44.000 Charlie came to me a couple of years back and said, hey, we're doing this Israel trip.

00:52:49.000 Do you want to go?

00:52:50.000 And I said, you know, I'd love to.

00:52:51.000 But as a matter of fact, Charlie, I would love if I could get my family to come along.

00:52:55.000 Charlie said, don't even worry about it.

00:52:57.000 They'll all be taken care of.

00:52:58.000 And sent my entire family to go and visit the Holy Land.

00:53:02.000 It was the trip of our lives.

00:53:04.000 My family still talks about it.

00:53:06.000 And, you know, it was something where he didn't even ask for anything in return.

00:53:11.000 Well, thank you.

00:53:11.000 That touches me, Jack.

00:53:12.000 And that, I mean, to send people the Holy Land is one of the greatest things I believe we can do.

00:53:16.000 I just want to read this quote.

00:53:17.000 In addition to that, this guy, Jeffrey Shapiro, writes, Mr. Kirk should resign or be removed as head of Turning Point USA, or the right will and should suffer the consequences of its inaction.

00:53:30.000 Jeffrey Scott Shapiro is a former Washington prosecutor who served on the board of advisors and he literally was a former DOJ prosecutor.

00:53:38.000 And he's like pseudo-threatening me in this Washington Times piece.

00:53:42.000 Remember the reason for them calling you an anti-semite, Charlie?

00:53:45.000 It's because you asked why the intelligence failed in the first place.

00:53:50.000 But like, that's it.

00:53:50.000 You can't do that.

00:53:52.000 That's it.

00:53:52.000 And this has made an astute observation.

00:53:54.000 We still don't have an answer to that.

00:53:55.000 No, remember, they ended up firing somebody in weeks.

00:53:58.000 We have tons of articles that show that they did have like a name for the potential breaking of the wall.

00:54:04.000 They didn't take it seriously.

00:54:06.000 We're not describing New York Times campus.

00:54:08.000 There was an analyst.

00:54:09.000 We're not describing motivations or intentions.

00:54:09.000 There was an analyst.

00:54:12.000 We're analyzing a fact pattern that doesn't click.

00:54:15.000 Yeah.

00:54:16.000 Yeah.

00:54:16.000 And if you're upset at the U.S. government for letting 9-11 happen, does that make you anti-American?

00:54:22.000 You know who said he loved what I said?

00:54:24.000 Dennis Prager.

00:54:24.000 The best?

00:54:25.000 He said, he said, Charlie, you were spot on with what you said.

00:54:28.000 Yeah.

00:54:28.000 Well, love Dennis.

00:54:29.000 I think my best line, the best line from this Washington Times piece, I just found it.

00:54:34.000 Some might say Mr. Kirk's comments demonstrate ignorance, but he may just lack a conscience.

00:54:44.000 That's so ridiculous.

00:54:45.000 Like in retrospect, when pro-Israel people say, why are we losing the debate?

00:54:50.000 I'm like, because Jeffrey Scott Shapiro went out and attacked.

00:54:56.000 Correct me if I'm wrong, Jack.

00:54:57.000 Out of all the major conservative Christian social media influencers, I think I'm one of the largest pro-Israel voices out there.

00:55:04.000 That's non-Jewish.

00:55:05.000 Yeah.

00:55:06.000 Here's another.

00:55:07.000 Ben Dominich tweeted: if Charlie Kirk remains the head of TPUSA, the right has an anti-Semite problem that will follow them into the coming elections.

00:55:19.000 What a dumb person.

00:55:22.000 What an absolute idiot.

00:55:25.000 He's either paid or he's mentally unfit to drive an automobile.

00:55:30.000 Like, that's how insanely dumb that person who you just mentioned is.

00:55:36.000 Like, I am so viscerally annoyed by that person because the idiocy that you have to possess within yourself to say something that retarded.

00:55:47.000 Sorry, cut that.

00:55:50.000 R-Slur.

00:55:51.000 Don't cut it.

00:55:52.000 That's what Taylor Robinson calls it.

00:55:55.000 Like, what a paid, filthy, stupid person.

00:56:00.000 What a paid, what a filthy human.

00:56:04.000 Okay, a last topic, guys.

00:56:05.000 What do we have?

00:56:06.000 All right.

00:56:07.000 Oh, so we have two options here.

00:56:08.000 We could approach this.

00:56:09.000 We have the OnlyFans influencer going Christian, or we have who's responsible for breaking marriage in response to your discussion.

00:56:19.000 That's probably the word viral.

00:56:20.000 I don't want to go marriage.

00:56:21.000 All righty.

00:56:22.000 So I'll set the stage on this.

00:56:23.000 Last week, you, Charlie Kirk, the anti-Semite who's going to destroy us all in the elections, had some comments on marriage women contacting you, wanting to find husbands, and you say, you know, like, we waited too long.

00:56:41.000 Yeah, can we clarify something?

00:56:42.000 One of the things that bothered me about this story was Charlie's, like the direct quote.

00:56:47.000 And sorry, the audience, maybe you need to be caught up.

00:56:49.000 Jack, fill in the gaps where I missed this.

00:56:51.000 You're good at that.

00:56:52.000 But Charlie was talking at a church and he asked about this.

00:56:56.000 And he said the direct quote was, if you wait to get married until you're in your 30s, if to the females, you are, quote, less attractive in the dating pool.

00:57:08.000 You did not say they were less attractive.

00:57:09.000 There's many, many women in their 30s that are absolutely beautiful.

00:57:13.000 Okay.

00:57:13.000 That's not what you were saying.

00:57:14.000 You're saying there is a smaller pool.

00:57:18.000 There's less options.

00:57:21.000 They're also for men that want to have kids, you know, that kind of thing.

00:57:24.000 I mean, I'm not saying it was the most delicate framing of that sentence, but just to be, you know, very precise about that, you were not calling people ugly.

00:57:34.000 No, I wasn't.

00:57:34.000 Okay.

00:57:35.000 No, I was saying, again, what you said it fine.

00:57:37.000 So I don't need to.

00:57:38.000 Yeah, go ahead.

00:57:39.000 All right.

00:57:39.000 Go ahead, Blake.

00:57:40.000 So this, of course, fired up still from the last.

00:57:40.000 Yeah.

00:57:44.000 This started, you know, Charlie's, you know, once a month instance of being like the number one conversation driver in America.

00:57:50.000 And then this provoked a response, an article that I read.

00:57:54.000 And then we had a bit of discussion before the show.

00:57:58.000 So there's a writer, Scott Greer.

00:58:00.000 We've talked about the Greer Head Pledge before.

00:58:02.000 Like, should we not watch rap or get or listen to rap or get tattoos or watch the NFL, all of that?

00:58:08.000 But he had an article where he titled it, Stop Blaming Men for the Marriage Crisis.

00:58:14.000 And I'm going to read a quote from it, which I think you guys can put on screen.

00:58:17.000 He says, Charlie Kirk upset a lot of women last week in a discussion on unmarried women preferring Democrats.

00:58:23.000 He said, ladies in their 30s are, this is Greer's wording, past their prime and struggle to find a husband.

00:58:29.000 This is obviously true, but impolite to say.

00:58:33.000 Kirk's statement naturally inspired outrage among liberals as well as among conservatives.

00:58:38.000 That shouldn't surprise anyone.

00:58:39.000 Kirk's opinion runs counter to the prevailing conservative narrative about the decline of marriage.

00:58:45.000 Conservatives say that it's men's fault and we need to do more to shame males into stepping up.

00:58:52.000 But this male-focused answer isn't correct.

00:58:54.000 I won't read the whole article, but what he gets into is he argues, he cites Senator Josh Hawley, who we've talked to quite a bit, where you have this very male-focused thing that men need to get better jobs, stop doing, you know, stop playing video games, stop watching porn, stop doing all these destructive things, get improve, and then marry women, have families.

00:59:17.000 And what he argues is the reason marriage is in decline is mostly women driven, that they are encouraged to focus on their careers, to delay looking for a husband, and then they're fed a bunch of excuses afterwards that like, you know, it's the entire world that's wrong.

00:59:34.000 You didn't screw up if you wait too long and you're in your 30s and you're not able to get married.

00:59:39.000 And so our debate, which we're going to have here, is who broke marriage?

00:59:43.000 Men or women?

00:59:44.000 It has to be all one or all the other.

00:59:46.000 It can't be that.

00:59:47.000 Both of them have some responsibility.

00:59:49.000 I mean, I think it's both.

00:59:50.000 I think what Greer is pinpointing, what I was saying, is that men get all the blame and you're not even allowed to mention anything that women could do differently.

00:59:59.000 And I think that's totally fair.

01:00:00.000 Is that are there decisions and cultural norms and habits that women, specifically women in their 20s, are doing that make marriage rates go down and, you know, make it less likely for families to be, I think that was evident in the reaction to that clip, which, you know, it was.

01:00:18.000 How was the reaction, Andrew?

01:00:20.000 It was basically, I mean, actually, I will say, plenty of people know, a ton of people.

01:00:20.000 I don't know.

01:00:26.000 I would actually say what I was looking at, more people were defending it, but there was a couple of loud voices that were getting upset about it.

01:00:33.000 Plus, there was the whole birth control piece of it, which I think is like, you know, it's like a sacred cow for especially.

01:00:40.000 There's nothing I said was incorrect, unfaction.

01:00:42.000 No, I mean, there's a ton of, there's a ton of evidence behind that.

01:00:46.000 I think a lot of people just think that women should be the one that are talking about it.

01:00:49.000 And it's like, well, you know, how do you expect us, A, to know that that's the rule?

01:00:54.000 And B, why can't we be supportive?

01:00:57.000 I have a platform.

01:00:58.000 I'm talking about a topic.

01:00:59.000 There's no, anything where they say only men or only women can talk about it is like ridiculous.

01:01:05.000 Unless it's like a sensory phenomenon.

01:01:07.000 Like, what does it feel like to give birth?

01:01:08.000 Okay, men shouldn't weigh in on that.

01:01:10.000 Of course, I agree.

01:01:11.000 Any moral issue, any societal issue, so I can weigh in.

01:01:15.000 I've not really read too much of Scott Greer's stuff.

01:01:19.000 I did read this before the show.

01:01:22.000 I like, you know, first of all, let me say I actually endorse Senator Hawley.

01:01:27.000 Like, I think men respond well to being called up.

01:01:32.000 I think you have to call men up.

01:01:34.000 Called out.

01:01:34.000 And called out, but like called higher, right?

01:01:38.000 And to be better.

01:01:39.000 I know that the biggest leaps and improvements I've made in my life is when I encounter somebody that challenges me to do more, to be better, to be stronger.

01:01:49.000 And so I think that's just a part of the male experience.

01:01:54.000 But I do think it is weird, and he did call this out, that it's basically we've created a culture, especially on the right, where it's okay to call men out.

01:02:02.000 We could belittle men all we want.

01:02:05.000 But you can't do that with women.

01:02:07.000 And I think that part of that might just be because women receive criticism differently.

01:02:13.000 Emotionally, there's a different process that they tend to go through.

01:02:16.000 But it's a fair critique of the whole thing because what we're essentially doing, if you look at pop culture in Hollywood, Jack, I know you will agree with me on this.

01:02:26.000 A lot of people have pointed out that like fathers in Hollywood over the years have become dumber and like basically just shallow husks of the previous great fathers from the 50s and 60s, right?

01:02:40.000 And now we have Homer Simpson, right?

01:02:41.000 So what the conservative movement is essentially doing is we're just mimicking the larger culture that we're trying to impact, or at least ostensibly trying to impact.

01:02:51.000 And we're just putting all the blame at the men.

01:02:53.000 And I think that's ultimately why that clip, you know, created a conversation is because you broke that rule.

01:03:01.000 You put some of the blame at women and saying you should prioritize marriage more than your career and don't take birth control if it's going to delay those really, really important life decisions and your future happiness.

01:03:14.000 Go ahead.

01:03:14.000 Sorry, Jack.

01:03:16.000 No, no, I actually, so like, I agree and disagree with you, right?

01:03:20.000 In, and not that I disagree with anything that you say, I just mean in terms of, yes, it's true that women do need to uphold their fair share of this and they need to take their fair share of lumps the same way that men have taken their fair share of lumps.

01:03:36.000 And how many shows have we done talking about the decline of masculinity in America?

01:03:40.000 I think it's probably, if you went through like thought crime topics, it's probably our number one or at least top five themes.

01:03:47.000 But those don't go viral, Jack.

01:03:48.000 Why don't they go viral?

01:03:50.000 Yeah, funny enough.

01:03:51.000 But the minute you put it, but here's what I will say, though.

01:03:53.000 The other piece of this is that the reason, and this kind of answers Charlie's question, the reason that you got so much flack for those comments specifically, Charlie, even though there are lots of women who agree 100% with what you said, is that what you're really seeing is a power play.

01:04:10.000 You're seeing a power play whereby in these comments are valid if women make them, if these are choices that women make, because women are the ones that are allowed to make decisions.

01:04:24.000 Men are only allowed to affirm the decisions of the women that have been made.

01:04:30.000 That is society.

01:04:31.000 This is where people missed even greater.

01:04:34.000 I was talking to parents.

01:04:36.000 I was saying, parents, do not allow your daughters to get on this.

01:04:41.000 So I'm not allowed to give advice to parents.

01:04:44.000 And specifically Christian parents.

01:04:46.000 Which, by the way, or, you know, speaking as a Catholic, not exactly a radical position to take for young religious Christians to be against birth control.

01:04:54.000 It's a pretty, pretty standard topic.

01:04:57.000 And I would say that most people that are on birth control, they don't know all the risks.

01:05:00.000 They don't know all of the costs associated.

01:05:02.000 So, yeah, I mean, it's on both, but the way the dating conversation is presented, especially when I talk to young women, I say, are you happy with the pool of young men out there?

01:05:13.000 Oh, no, they're terrible.

01:05:14.000 They're self-interested.

01:05:16.000 They have no ambition.

01:05:17.000 I say, are you guys doing everything perfectly?

01:05:19.000 They say, well, we have our act together and we're not to blame for this.

01:05:22.000 There's an incredible amount of pride that young ladies have.

01:05:26.000 I'm surprised that that's been your experience.

01:05:29.000 I have never asked that question.

01:05:30.000 So I'm going off of your take.

01:05:32.000 I mean, that's a general shock.

01:05:34.000 It's just, but I, where, maybe I'm wrong, there's a major manosphere self-improvement movement.

01:05:41.000 Oh, man.

01:05:41.000 It's a whole industry.

01:05:42.000 Is there a female sphere self-improvement industry about it?

01:05:46.000 I just don't think it's as developed yet.

01:05:48.000 I don't think it's coming.

01:05:49.000 It exists.

01:05:49.000 It's nascent.

01:05:50.000 And some of it's really weird.

01:05:52.000 Like you can find the subreddit called.

01:05:56.000 There's a subreddit called Female Dating Strategy, and it's extremely mentally ill if you read it.

01:06:02.000 So I would, I would not recommend checking it out.

01:06:04.000 It has to mature.

01:06:05.000 Female dating strategy.

01:06:06.000 Be a woman.

01:06:07.000 But it's an interesting question.

01:06:09.000 You know, like one thing, the article I mentioned earlier highlights is another article by Brad Wilcox, and it's titled from the Institute for Family Studies.

01:06:18.000 And it's titled, Where Have All the Good Men Gone?

01:06:21.000 And that's kind of, that's often the framing that is popular if people want to blame men for the decline in marriage, that men are in decline.

01:06:30.000 Good men are not available.

01:06:32.000 And there's some merit to this.

01:06:36.000 If you go to a college campus, most of the students at most campuses now are women.

01:06:43.000 Most of the people who finish are going to be women.

01:06:45.000 The number of men, the number of people who are falling into like disastrous lives where they're not really fit to marry anyone, that's going to be more men than women.

01:06:55.000 They're the ones who live at home, don't have any job, aren't an education, or are doing nothing with their lives, are just addicted to games or porn or nothing in particular.

01:07:07.000 And I do think that fixing that probably, I lean towards it being a male thing just in that I think women naturally do follow men and look towards men.

01:07:16.000 And so if men are a disaster, a lot of things flow out of that.

01:07:20.000 And if you are making men a higher quality group of people across the board, that will spread throughout society.

01:07:28.000 But I could be wrong in that.

01:07:31.000 You could easily flip it the other way.

01:07:32.000 I believe women.

01:07:34.000 Sorry, sorry, but go ahead.

01:07:35.000 If women were more, you know, if you had a social change of women more concertedly encouraging like traditional morality, don't sleep with men as often and kind of shun people who do it too easily, then that would also encourage marriage.

01:07:50.000 That would encourage commitment.

01:07:52.000 What you very much have is you have the consequence of high individualism and basically anarchy in terms of personal decision making.

01:08:01.000 And so no one is held to account for bad behavior, basically.

01:08:04.000 And that's going to encourage lots of bad behavior.

01:08:07.000 So I believe that the most direct route from fixing this solution is to create higher quality men.

01:08:14.000 I do.

01:08:15.000 I actually do.

01:08:16.000 Because in some respects, the whole debate that was sparked was a tacit acknowledgement that men hold an amount, an immense amount of sway.

01:08:28.000 So because it was all sort of like, why are the men hijacking this conversation?

01:08:33.000 Well, okay.

01:08:33.000 Well, because it was an acknowledgement that that power exists.

01:08:37.000 So I do believe that if men become high quality, become worth following, endeavor to be men worthy of leading a family and being in a marriage relationship, obviously, that women will follow suit.

01:08:53.000 And then, you know, but I also do think as somebody who's married to a woman that is a conservative woman and she celebrates my masculinity, that's an important part of this discussion.

01:09:02.000 Women need to, obviously, need to give space for men to be men.

01:09:07.000 And I don't think that exists in enough measure in our current culture.

01:09:14.000 Yeah, go ahead.

01:09:14.000 Super quick.

01:09:16.000 Super quick point.

01:09:17.000 Men have to be able to say no.

01:09:19.000 Men have to be able to be in a relationship with a woman and say no.

01:09:23.000 Whoever came up with that phrase, happy wife, happy life, is an idiot.

01:09:27.000 And men need to stop believing that that is the only thing.

01:09:30.000 And the most masculine word in the English language is the word no.

01:09:34.000 Men being able to say no to women may be the one thing that saves Western society.

01:09:38.000 I mean, happy wife, happy life.

01:09:41.000 I agree with you, but it's totally fine to like use that as a little bit of a thing.

01:09:47.000 It's okay.

01:09:48.000 But I agree.

01:09:50.000 Jack, are you saying it's really unhappy wife?

01:09:52.000 Happy wife?

01:09:55.000 Unhappy wife, happy life?

01:09:58.000 Yeah, that's the good answer.

01:10:00.000 I don't think I can agree with that as a married man here, but maybe the reason.

01:10:03.000 No, the reason is because people take that to mean do whatever your wife says at all times.

01:10:08.000 Never push back.

01:10:09.000 Never stand up for yourself.

01:10:10.000 Always be a pushover or whatever she wants to say yes to, which is wrong.

01:10:15.000 I don't want to completely agree with those sayings.

01:10:17.000 But this is the issue that it makes men like, well, whatever you want, honeybear.

01:10:21.000 Yeah, I agree with you on that.

01:10:22.000 I do.

01:10:23.000 I do.

01:10:23.000 All right, everybody.

01:10:24.000 Got to run.

01:10:24.000 Thanks so much.

01:10:25.000 Email us freedom at charliekirk.com.

01:10:27.000 Talk to you soon.

01:10:30.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

01:10:32.000 Email us as always freedom at charliekirk.com.

01:10:34.000 Thanks so much for listening and God bless.

01:10:38.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - April 13, 2024

THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 39 — Tucker vs. Israel? Abortion and 2024? Who Broke Marriage?

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