00:00:03.000We discuss the latest indictments that have come down against one of our co-hosts, Tyler Boyer.
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00:02:01.000It's actually where Orban comes out and gives us all our marching orders for the year and tells us this is how we're going to fight George Soros on every continent so that he won't be able to get in anywhere.
00:02:11.000Obviously, in the United States, we have a lot of work to do.
00:02:14.000Do you feel safe walking the streets of Budapest at night?
00:03:13.000And it turns out that people actually really enjoy countries like this and people are actually happy.
00:03:19.000And families are, by the way, Charlie, you'd appreciate the thing that mainly about Budapest is not so much the safety, it's the fact that there are playgrounds everywhere in this city.
00:04:55.000As you said, we lied with it this morning, talked about it for a whole hour.
00:04:58.000We encourage all of you to go watch that episode.
00:05:00.000But what's going on is we've already had several of these criminal cases in other states where they have targeted people connected with Trump's presidential campaign in 2020 and also people who served as alternative electoral college slates in 2020.
00:05:59.000I've got the indictment in front of me.
00:06:02.000Some of these charges are fraudulent schemes and artifices, forgery, tampering with a public record, and presentment of false instrument for filing, among other joyous possible crimes that are alleged.
00:06:20.000And all of this is because they acted as alternative electors in 2020.
00:06:25.000And as we explained this morning and as we explained on Twitter yesterday, it's just everything about this is truly just cataclysmically insane and deranged and evil.
00:06:36.000I'm just going to be blunt about this because the claim of forgery, here's the deal.
00:06:42.000In Arizona in December of 2020, they had certified that Joe Biden was the winner of the state, but Donald Trump's campaign was pursuing various lawsuits.
00:06:59.000But what was widely believed within the Trump camp, but also by many Democrats, was the Electoral College convenes on this one date in December.
00:07:14.000And they're like, well, they're going to convene and they have to cast their votes then.
00:07:18.000And it was widely believed that due to the Electoral Count Act and the Constitution, how they interact, that you had to have electoral votes cast on that date, or there was just, there was no remedy.
00:07:29.000So they could have later determined, oh, actually, Trump won the state and he would have, you should have gotten the electoral votes.
00:07:35.000And they would say, well, you didn't have an electoral college slate convened to cast the ballots on the 19th.
00:07:43.000At most, they could reject the Biden ones, but you couldn't cast them for Trump.
00:07:47.000And so the thought was, well, we need to have people convene to cast these electoral votes so that if it later is decided in favor of Trump, we'll be able to do this.
00:07:56.000That was transparently what this was for.
00:08:45.000Where they say, we, the duly elected and, you know, electors of the state of Hawaii are casting our three electoral votes for John F. Kennedy.
00:09:43.000That was the precedent they had to go on.
00:09:45.000That is what all the Republican alternate electors were looking towards when they did this.
00:09:50.000And this is, as we pointed out, in November 2020, the day after the election.
00:09:56.000Remember, the day after Trump was still ahead.
00:09:57.000They hadn't had, well, the ballots hadn't been found yet.
00:10:00.000And you have Van Jones and you have Lawrence Leslie, a Harvard law professor.
00:10:06.000They come out and they write an article saying, we need to make sure all the ballots are counted.
00:10:10.000And they're going to try to slow count this because Trump's ahead.
00:10:12.000And so we need to make it so if it's still in dispute, when we get to that December day, both of them should convene and they should submit electoral college certifications.
00:10:27.000We'll just let it go until the latest possible date.
00:10:30.000This is what a professor at Harvard law says to do.
00:10:34.000And now, four years later, because they look at the polls and Donald Trump is winning in the state of Arizona and winning in the state of Nevada and winning in the state of Georgia and winning in many polls in all his restbelt states, they're thinking, oh crap, we need to get this guy in prison.
00:10:49.000We need to throw more charges at all of his people.
00:11:03.000I don't even want to say you do it in Russia.
00:11:05.000You do this in like crappy African countries where they're just winging it the whole time and be like, oh, it turns out, you know, the opposition leader was a criminal the whole time.
00:11:16.000Democrat attorney Robert G. Dodge instructs the Democrat electors from Hawaii on how to cast their electoral ballots in the 1960s look right there.
00:12:58.000Meanwhile, suddenly you got people that are getting indicted for writing their name on a piece of paper and suddenly that makes them a criminal.
00:13:06.000But as I was talking to more people about it here, and keep in mind, I'm in Eastern Europe, so I'm in the Eastern Bloc, the former Eastern Bloc.
00:13:41.000It's extremely obvious in this case that what they did was they decided that they were going to find the 12 people who were the most effective in Arizona politics or Tyler, who's so effective at the ballot initiative level when it comes to these chase the votes and chase the ballots nationwide, which Turning Point Action is doing.
00:14:00.000And that's why they've decided to pursue something like this, especially on such a cockamamie case that's being brought by this AG who, as everyone said, has barely won her own election, which she herself, by the way, played a role in making sure that there were certain votes that were not certified in her own election, a huge role where she was preventing votes from being counted and things being certified, et cetera.
00:14:25.000And so I would simply say that it shows you the stakes, right?
00:14:32.000Everyone can see Trump on trial right now.
00:14:34.000Everyone can see when they're going after people who are our own friends, where they're going after somebody who, you know, I was kind of, I think I flippantly said on the last podcast or maybe two weeks ago, the last thought crime, that, oh, it looks like none of us are in the news lately.
00:14:49.000Like for once, none of us didn't drive a news cycle.
00:14:52.000And now all of a sudden, you know, this happens to Tyler the next week.
00:14:55.000And it's horrifying, but it's also clarifying to know that, like, you know, guys, if we lose, this is what's going to happen to all of us.
00:15:28.000We were talking about this in the pre-show, but they spent years building the institutions, building the legal bench for this.
00:15:34.000And Charlie, I throw it back to you on this.
00:15:36.000I mean, with the conservatives that we have on the bench and people say, you know, Trump got so many judges elected.
00:15:43.000And obviously, that's the federal level, it's a state level.
00:15:46.000I just don't see this level of fervor when I talk, when I look at the conservative, you know, legal appointees, it's just not there.
00:15:56.000That would the same way you see with the Democrats, with the liberals.
00:15:58.000You know, our guys are more likely to kind of stick their thumb up.
00:16:01.000Or like Amy Coney Barrett, you know, she's basically like a pro-life liberal at this point.
00:16:05.000And in terms of the way that she's been ruling on so many different things, and the question is, like, what is it going to take for us to achieve parity there?
00:16:13.000So I was talking to a former attorney general yesterday that I won that name of a major state, and I was really fired up.
00:16:21.000I called him and I said, so when are we going to start indicting them?
00:16:25.000I mean, it's a position we say on this program because I sent him this and he said, well, we don't do that.
00:16:31.000I said, okay, well, we're going to lose.
00:17:10.000Andrew, this is something that you and I deal with a lot because these people think so highly of themselves and the law and the administration, the administering of it.
00:17:28.000Andrew, do you think that's a proper way to look at it?
00:17:33.000Yeah, I mean, we talk about mutually assured destruction a lot.
00:17:36.000And I think that there's a reason that we do that because they have to feel the pain.
00:17:42.000They have to understand that they've unleashed Pandora's box.
00:17:45.000And if you're not willing to press the red button, then they're just going to continue operating with impunity.
00:17:52.000And this is where we get the boomer hate mail in, but a lot of this is generational.
00:17:58.000Like if we had this conversation on a college campus with a lot of wingers, these young guys that come out and watch you table, Charlie, they'd be like, they would totally get it.
00:18:07.000They would totally get that we are living in an America that is no longer fair, that's no longer decent from an institutional level.
00:18:16.000And they would understand, like, yeah, you got to, you got to hit back.
00:18:21.000This is not who we are as a country or should be, but we have to hit back.
00:18:25.000And yeah, but once you get to a certain age range, and I would say probably like 60 and older, they're not prepared to take that leap because it seems dirty.
00:18:52.000We don't want to, we're not necessarily wired to build and restore and build from scratch, right?
00:18:59.000The conservative, you want to conserve it.
00:19:02.000But right now, we're in a time in our country where the institutions that we've long admired and loved and appreciated that have kept us free and safe, they're corrupted from the inside out.
00:19:11.000And so you have to take radical, drastic measures.
00:19:46.000And so what you do is you don't just throw off some indictment and just roll with it.
00:19:52.000You make sure you get a lot of law professors to write briefs saying that, you know, if we interpret the law correctly, you can totally do this thing.
00:20:00.000And you make sure that all the journalists are like writing articles about how this is a totally reasonable thing to do.
00:20:06.000You build up the momentum that justifies this.
00:20:09.000And then you make sure that your indictment is really detailed and you try to pick things that are most vulnerable.
00:20:15.000To pick an example that's not Trump, you also pick cases where you can get away with it more.
00:20:20.000The stuff they did to Alex Jones was really outrageous.
00:20:23.000But what they did is they picked Alex Jones because they're like, well, he'll be a less sympathetic defendant.
00:20:28.000And they assassinated him first in the middle.
00:20:29.000And he'll, frankly, he's more likely to do things that will blow up in his face.
00:20:34.000Do you know why Alex Jones lost his defamation case?
00:20:41.000He lost because he broke the rules so much.
00:20:43.000The judge said, I'm just holding you to lose by default, which happens if you're in court and you act really recklessly.
00:20:49.000And yet now we have this precedent that you can do all this bad crap to people on the right using defamation law because of this case that we lost through a bad setup.
00:20:58.000So what I will say is, and then I'll let Andrew go, is don't just say, we don't want to have, you should indict the left, like throw a thing off this Friday so you can go on Fox News and talk about how you're such a great hero for conservatism.
00:21:11.000What I think you want to do is you have to view this as a, you kind of need to invest in your own arms race.
00:21:20.000You might have to say, state legislature, expand the size of your AG's office so they can have more lawyers who do prospective investigations, who send subpoenas so we can get like SPLC is headquartered in Alabama, Montgomery, Alabama.
00:21:34.000So expand the size of your AG office, think, well, there's a lot of suspicious stuff about the SPLC.
00:21:38.000Didn't they have a sex scandal that was going to get investigated and then it just never was?
00:21:51.000Maybe we could expand our RICO laws and say, oh, you're doing all this stuff to enable people who are doing shady stuff at our border that helps illegals come here.
00:21:59.000Yeah, we're deciding that that's actually a deliberate abetment of criminal behavior at the border.
00:22:04.000And we're going to indict you for that.
00:22:06.000You have to think hard about it and then execute on it.
00:22:10.000And if you do it carefully, it's way stronger than if you just do a stunt.
00:22:28.000But the built-in assumption is that there is vast amounts of criminality that is left unprosecuted, uninvestigated from left-wing actors, right?
00:22:39.000And the amount of collusion between this White House and different prosecutors around the country is something I would love to get involved with.
00:22:46.000I mean, we had, Charlie, you had that op-ed in the Federalists that went mega viral and it basically presented five or six different options where you could start.
00:22:57.000One of the things that we struggle with, to your point, Blank, is, and that op-ed, by the way, was an effort to do exactly what you're talking about.
00:23:06.000It was saying, hey, we have to start thinking about this.
00:24:52.000And what they did is they created a unit inside the New York AG's office that was essentially, we need to kill the NRA.
00:24:59.000And they even interface this with the left.
00:25:01.000Mayor Bloomberg, he literally has funded like news outlets whose purpose is to write anti-gun stories so that the media can have these anti-gun stories that you can then cite in legal briefings and all this.
00:25:16.000This is not the stuff they've done against the NRA that we talk about now is because of cases they filed in 2020 based on investigations they started in 2015.
00:25:54.000No, I could say I actually comment on that because it's very something similar to what Orban has done here in Hungary.
00:26:01.000So he was out of power for a couple of years when he wasn't prime minister.
00:26:05.000And during that time, what he did was, and people know the backstory, of course, Orban basically ran George Soros out of Hungary and had all of the Soros organizations were here in Hungary before they were anywhere else.
00:26:20.000And his whole rise of power in Hungary was based around him just railing against George Soros from taking over the country and getting rid of him.
00:26:30.000But when he was out of the prime ministership for a period before his third term, I believe, if I have that right, what he did is he would go around and he started building the conservative ecosystem all around the country.
00:26:45.000And so he just built these organizations like what Blake is talking about here.
00:26:49.000And he would go to donors and say, hey, we need an organization that's going to do this.
00:26:54.000And they're going to be focused on like family issues.
00:27:01.000This is our just whatever it was, whatever the issue was, there was going to be an organization for it.
00:27:06.000So that when he came back into the prime ministership, all of those organizations or like the top people from those organizations were able to just go one over.
00:27:15.000And suddenly now they're staffing the government's administration.
00:27:19.000Now, and it's been incredibly effective.
00:27:22.000And this is what, and you're starting to see this in nascent stages.
00:27:25.000Obviously, you know, Turning Point and others, Claremont Institute are examples of this, but we just don't have enough of it yet in the U.S. to compete with what the left has.
00:27:38.000Now, fortunately, we have like truth on our side and things like that that are very helpful for us.
00:27:42.000But just to give another example in Europe, so in Poland, the PIS, the Law and Justice Party, just got out of power in their prime ministership.
00:27:50.000And the problem was they didn't build any.
00:27:53.000of those organizations when they were in power.
00:28:06.000And the left just went in and took over everything on the entire airwaves.
00:28:10.000And they're just in an absolute crisis point right now because it's like, what do we do since we don't have any of those organizations?
00:28:17.000And so this is why it's kind of revolutionary in a sense, counter-revolutionary, I guess, if you look at it this way, to have organizations like Turning Point.
00:28:27.000And oh, by the way, Turning Point Action, what just happened to their head?
00:28:30.000He just got they're trying to slow down our political vehicle.
00:28:35.000And by the way, I'm not just speculating it.
00:28:36.000Literally, Vaughn Hillard goes on MSNBC and out of all the different people he could talk about, Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, Jenna Ellis, he isolates Tyler Boyer on the indictment and then mentions Charlie Kirk Turning Point.
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00:29:58.000So you can rest easy knowing that you have emergency meds on hand, along with a guidebook for safe use.
00:30:40.000Tyler Boyer is not going to be a household name to most folks, but he is the RNC committee man from Arizona.
00:30:46.000So he is the one that at every RNC meeting, winter meeting, summer meeting, he's the one that has a vote for Arizona, picks the chair of the party, for example.
00:30:56.000He is the person who is not only one of these fake electors indicted, but also RNC committee man, but he's also the chief operating officer of Turning Point USA, which is the Charlie Kirk organization, the Trump-aligned organization that has garnered millions of dollars and has effectively taken over the Arizona Republican Party in recent years.
00:31:20.000They're close with the likes of Carrie Lake, Abe Hamiday, who was the opponent to Chris Mays and the Attorney General's race in 2022 and was an election denier.
00:31:31.000Okay, so that was what we just have been covering.
00:31:53.000If you say turning point's important, you know, you're, you're talking your book, but if they're when they say turning points important, okay, all right.
00:32:15.000Speaking of atom bombs, where we just went through an atom bomb in Arizona of an indictment, Tucker Carlson has really started an incredible debate on the right.
00:32:26.000Do we have Tucker's interview with Joe to kind of clip 77?
00:32:31.000Okay, just this is Tucker Carlson on the Joe Rogan program.
00:32:56.000And he's like, no, no, no, my eyes are open.
00:32:58.000So I just want everyone to know that Tucker's impact on this interview, at least anecdotally on the micro, has really been impactful, especially when he's talking about the populist stuff.
00:34:02.000Blake picked this topic and I was like, okay, he's probably going to be an atom bomb defender, but you're anti.
00:34:08.000And that actually comforts me because I've always had this opinion.
00:34:11.000I just failed to believe that we in America have to resort to, I don't want to say genocide, but like just it's it's an interesting thing and I do want to get into it.
00:34:21.000I just to set the stage because this is starting a big debate.
00:34:26.000He had a tweet that 6 million people viewed where he says in response to what Tucker did that you hate America essentially.
00:34:33.000People, he talked about other stuff, people who deny the moon landing or suggest America is evil for its use of atomic weapons against Imperial Japan.
00:34:42.000Says some of the stuff, but people who say just America is bad for using A-bombs actually hate.
00:35:26.000But the question itself is very interesting because people will argue, as they say, that if we didn't use it, more Americans would have died.
00:35:37.000And I think what is the interesting pill to swallow is even if that was true, I think it's still wrong to do it.
00:35:46.000And what it is, is it's as Tucker says, what was the A-bomb?
00:35:50.000We're taking this insanely powerful weapon and we're just deploying it against a city, a city that is by nature overwhelmingly civilians, you know, just old people, women, children, non-combatants of all sort, and just deploying it against a city.
00:36:09.000You can say under a utilitarian calculus that, you know, that that's okay.
00:36:14.000But that sort of calculus is fundamentally a, like, it's a modernist view and it's like a, it's kind of a left-wing view.
00:36:22.000Every group of people who have done atrocities in history have said that it is justified because in the long run, the greater good for the greater number of people justifies us doing this outrageous thing.
00:36:34.000And what I would say is when you look at periods of our history, which were, I would say, more informed by Christian principle, you would not do this.
00:36:42.000Consider General Sherman, March to the Sea, famous act of total war.
00:36:47.000General Sherman's guidelines say, he says, okay, here's what you do.
00:36:51.000You take enough food that a person can live on to survive and you give it to those people.
00:36:56.000You take all the extra and you destroy it.
00:36:59.000You burn warehouses and big buildings.
00:37:10.000I once looked at the census for Georgia in 1860 and 1870.
00:37:15.000And I looked at all the counties that Sherman walked through.
00:37:18.000And they all had higher populations in 1870.
00:37:21.000So he definitely didn't depopulate them, I will say.
00:37:25.000And you see this, you know, in the American Revolution, there are not, there are a few atrocities, but there are just not mass civilian killings.
00:37:32.000The British do not obliterate Boston and kill everyone in it, even when they're occupying the city.
00:37:39.000And in the Civil War, there are atrocities occasionally, but we do not obliterate Richmond.
00:37:44.000We do not just send cavalrymen riding through the South and just kill everyone they see.
00:37:50.000And one of the developments you see of the 20th century is total war, which is anyone who's in the opposing country is fair game to be killed for any reason because they're part of the opposing country.
00:38:02.000And the powers that embrace this are Nazi Germany, are the Soviet Union.
00:38:07.000It is, and then the people who most sympathize with that are the people in America who sympathize with those ideologies.
00:38:15.000And it is fundamentally against Christian principle to say, I think it's St. Paul says, you know, woe to those who say, let us do evil, that good may result from it.
00:38:29.000And so I just, I want to get other people in on this really quick, but Blake, as quickly as you can, what do you say to the argument that people are emailing us in and will also email us in?
00:38:37.000Japan would have never stopped fighting unless they were faced with a world-ending situation.
00:38:44.000We would have had to put in millions of American troops.
00:38:48.000Hundreds of thousands would have died.
00:38:49.000And no one's defending the atom bomb as being a great thing, but it was like a necessary tragedy to end what would have been even more bloody for all people involved.
00:38:59.000At that point, you can get into these details on it.
00:39:02.000And that gets into additional moral questions.
00:39:04.000For example, Japan was putting out feelers where they say, we want to surrender, but we just want a guarantee that like we won't hang the emperor because he's sacred.
00:39:13.000And we were saying, no, it has to be unconditional.
00:40:19.000I've heard this argument more recently that the reason for the A-bombs was sort of meant as a, and I don't know how historical this is, but there may have been some writing about it at the time, that it was sort of meant as a message, not necessarily to Japan, but actually a message to the Soviets.
00:40:39.000So people have to keep in mind, the Soviet Union has just occupied Japanese-controlled Manchuria on the Chinese mainland at this point and was threatening an invasion of the Japanese home islands.
00:40:51.000So obviously the Japanese home islands were never invaded.
00:40:54.000The U.S. had done the island hopping throughout the South Pacific with the Huya U.S. Navy.
00:40:59.000And so there's this like theory, and I don't even know how historical it is, but there's a theory that because the Cold War, people could realize that sort of like World War II was ending and the new competition was going to be between the U.S. and the Soviets.
00:41:16.000So that this becomes then a message to the Soviets.
00:41:20.000I think that's an example of where you get like liberal arguments against the bomb because it's sort of an after-the-fact thing.
00:41:32.000A lot of people who sympathize with the Soviet Union and don't like America will say, America did this bad thing just because they hated the Soviets and had to send a message to the Soviets.
00:41:41.000Well, we're also not inditing the intentions here.
00:42:16.000There would have been a delay after that.
00:42:18.000So here, here is what I wanted to weigh in on.
00:42:21.000And it's kind of what you just mentioned there.
00:42:25.000This was not, so a lot of people think that the A-bomb, because it is the first and only time, like the two times, that the A-bomb or any type of nuclear weapon was used in warfare.
00:42:36.000True, but this also wasn't the only time that cities were indiscriminately bombed through the use of strategic or carpet bombing in World War II.
00:42:47.000Certainly not by the Allies who conducted carpet bombing all over Europe.
00:42:52.000But even, of course, the Germans were bombing the heck out of London too.
00:42:55.000So indiscriminate bombing was something that had already gone on to quite an extent up to this point.
00:43:01.000And that is not to get into the morality of that, but I am pointing out that this isn't the first time that it was done.
00:43:09.000Yeah, I mean, what Jack just said factors into my thinking, I think, a lot.
00:43:14.000I think in general, I think it's a really bad moral conundrum to get stuck in where you're defending the use of nuclear weapons in an armed conflict on civilians.
00:43:52.000It was as a kid, I remember thinking because, you know, they just got the weapon, right?
00:43:57.000It was the, it had only been around for a very short amount of time, and they used it once, and we realized the horror and the tragedy of it won't be used again.
00:44:07.000So I sort of give them a little bit of pass because of the moment in history it happened.
00:44:12.000But to Jack's point, I mean, Dresden, there was 25,000 civilians were killed in the Dresden bombings, right?
00:44:20.000So if you just think about the fact that this was going on and it was going both ways, and I think if you put yourself in that moment of time and you realize just how brutal the enemy was, I'm sure there was an emotion.
00:44:35.000You know, humans are emotional, right?
00:44:37.000So there's a place where you can say rationally killing civilians is bad.
00:44:42.000But you're coming at the end of a long and bloody conflict where Axis powers have tried to take over the world and you're wanting to send a really big signal, don't try this again.
00:45:08.000So in the moment, I have some, historically, I have some grace on that moment, but I think the lesson should be, you know, let's not do this again.
00:45:18.000This is actually a morally problematic thing to do.
00:47:21.000There is a huge amount, and Tucker's right, I should say, there's a huge amount of hubris that comes about because of them.
00:47:27.000But I would also say that keep in mind that it's also the space race going on at this time.
00:47:34.000You're also talking about in the 50s and then even more so into the 60s, you have the height of the Cold War because once the Rosenbergs steal the bomb through the theft of the Manhattan Project, they are then duly executed for doing so, giving it to the Soviet Union.
00:47:50.000That suddenly one, because this goes away very quickly, is what I'm saying.
00:47:55.000So this idea, if there was a level of hubris because of it, it goes away quickly because the Soviets get the bomb.
00:48:00.000And then so there becomes this like paranoia as well about who's got the bomb, who's going to get the bomb next, and then when is the bomb going to come?
00:48:07.000And this is where you get like the, you know, the under the table, you know, missile drills and schools and things like that.
00:48:12.000So it's, it's an interesting argument.
00:48:16.000I don't know how much I agree with it.
00:48:18.000Certainly there's a lot of hubris there.
00:48:21.000But there's also a lot of paranoia as well.
00:48:23.000And that I think bleeds into a lot of the Cold War.
00:48:26.000It would kind of be my response to all of it.
00:48:29.000And, you know, really, the one interesting piece of it, and I'll just say this from having, you know, lived in Asia for so many years, is that what's interesting is that when I'm in Japan and, you know, speaking as American, when I'm there, the only time I ever really hear this come up, anything about the atomic bomb, and sure, they have memorials to it.
00:48:48.000You can go, and it's more about just the horror of living through it, but you don't really face any animosity as an American.
00:48:55.000Number one, I mean, if you go to Japan, you're just not going to see anyone having an issue with you being an American, even though, yes, we are the country that bombed Japan.
00:49:04.000But then, number two, the only place you will ever hear it from are like the extreme, like ultra-nationalist, like bring back the emperor, kind of, you know, get the United States bases out of Japan, those guys who are like a very small sliver of Japanese society.
00:49:20.000And so, it's what's interesting to me is that we'll tie ourselves in knots over this, whereas the Japanese really do kind of by and large, and you know, not to speak for the Japanese, but in my experience there, it seems they really do just view it as an act as excuse me, as Andrew was just saying, who's filling in for our dear friend Tyler, just an act of war that was done through the course of the war and it happened and it was a long time ago, and that's it.
00:49:48.000Yeah, I just close this topic with how Blake said it.
00:49:51.000I refuse to believe that there were no other creative options that we could have employed.
00:50:11.000Well, no, I think there is almost a metaphysical element to this, not to sound too in the clouds or fringe about it, but I have to believe that when you unleash a force, a destructive force like that on to the planet, that there are unintended consequences that we cannot even begin to fathom.
00:50:36.000You know, whether that, I mean, you just don't know where those kind of things will work out in art and architecture and in your country and the spirit of your people.
00:50:52.000He thought it was the end of American ingenuity.
00:50:55.000What I want, I just want to end with a few quotes because I think a lot of people aren't aware of this.
00:50:58.000That in the first days after it was dropped, it was overwhelmingly on the right and with conservatives who said this is a morally questionable thing, or it's just wrong.
00:52:01.000Not satisfied with being able to kill people by the thousand, we have achieved the supreme triumph of being able to slaughter whole cities at a time.
00:52:08.000Obviously, is there anything from Human Events magazine?
00:53:16.000And he maybe didn't live to see it, right?
00:53:20.000But like, but at the same time, like, how, how successful in 50 years are we going to look back and say how successful Osama bin Laden was at getting us to destroy ourselves and pour our wealth and treasure into blood and sand in the Middle East and create all this domestic, you know, infighting and chaos, right?
00:53:39.000You go back to the atomic bomb, same concept.
00:53:41.000It's like, okay, we won that battle, but what were the unintended consequences?
00:53:47.000How did we stain the next generation with this moment in history that's so cataclysmic?
00:53:54.000Now, like I said, I have grace on the men that made this decision because of the moment they were in and because of the evil they thought they were fighting.
00:54:22.000Just weeks after Japan's surrender, an article published in conservative magazine Human Events contended that America's atomic destruction of Hiroshima might be morally more shameful and more degrading than Japan's indefensible and infamous act of aggression at Pearl Harbor.
00:55:26.000Uh, they discussed aliens Radiation, Alien Seven they, he said, the theory of evolution, kitty porn on your computer from the intelligence.
00:55:45.000He said that if you say the wrong thing, the Intel agencies put that on your whoa, which happened to Cheryl Atkinson, which actually happened to Cheryl Atkinson, the journalist.
00:56:34.000I think absolutely, because 30 to 40 million people have probably listened or have watched clips of this.
00:56:40.000Your thoughts, Jack, on the Tucker Rogan insane, viral conversation.
00:56:46.000Well, so, so there's a couple of thoughts, right?
00:56:49.000And I can get, I'll say it this way: I can understand where people, some people are coming from in good faith if they're criticizing it and saying, saying, like, people are used to seeing Tucker Carlson slay dragon.
00:57:05.000They want him going after their most hated, virulent politicians and leftists and leftist ideas and saying the things that shouldn't be said and talking about, ooh, the great replacement or, you know, ooh, racial crime stats or something like that.
00:57:23.000And that's, that's kind of what they're looking for.
00:57:25.000Whereas Tucker himself, his interests don't necessarily align with that all the time.
00:57:59.000Certainly he doesn't have to do any of that.
00:58:00.000He doesn't owe anyone anything in terms of it.
00:58:04.000But at the same time, I guess what I could say is that there are also people who are sort of commenting in bad faith because I do think that with Tucker, with Tucker leaving his position at Fox, it created a situation where he had been sort of the undisputed talk dog, hop dog of like conservative slash alternate media.
00:58:27.000And now it almost seems like there's a vacuum and you see other groups.
00:58:32.000And I'm not going to, you know, call out anyone specifically, but you can certainly see other groups viewing the ability to sort of attack Tucker now as a way of trying to usurp that position, which I think is stupid and very nearsighted.
00:58:46.000So I would, if there's anything bad for the movement, I'd say it's what's bad for the movement is this like petty sniping, which just comes across as jealousy.
00:59:47.000So, but why wouldn't what is what was your, what is your criticism of this interview, if there was one?
00:59:53.000Well, I think when I just, when I talk to people and some of them are sort of disappointed by Tucker post-Fox, is I think it's always, it's not that Tucker does anything new post-Fox, but he talks, I think, proportionally more about stuff that just, it feels almost off topic.
01:00:17.000Like, if what are your big issues in the 2024 election?
01:01:12.000But now it's, you know, now it seems like a bigger focus.
01:01:18.000When proportionally, it's like, we have, it feels like we're in a big crisis right now, not just with Ukraine, but with the border and with all this like legal overreach from the Biden administration.
01:01:32.000And it's sort of in the past when you had a weekly show, Tucker would be there and he would come in and he'd be like, he'd be the guy taking point on all the reasons that this Arizona indictment of Tyler is super sinister.
01:01:44.000He would say all the things we said on our show and he would be one of the first to say it.
01:01:48.000And now he'll probably get to it, but he probably won't be one of the first to get to it.
01:01:52.000And he might only do one episode on it and then nothing on it for weeks at a time.
01:01:56.000So Andrew, let's have you close it out.
01:01:58.000Andrew, you're the PR messaging genius.
01:05:14.000And I think I've ever met Rogan, actually.
01:05:18.000But I think what probably happened, because I've been around stuff like this a lot, is that they were probably just having a lot of off-screen conversations about those topics.
01:05:27.000And that just bled over into the show.
01:05:30.000I don't think there's any like any time.
01:05:35.000Yeah, if you've spent any time with Tucker, and I haven't probably spent as much as Blake or you, Jack, but I've spent some, that it's just these crazy conversations come up and you talk about random stuff and it's really, really fascinating.
01:05:50.000And Tucker is incredibly charming and extremely fascinating.
01:05:54.000And it just does come up because he's a really curious guy.
01:05:57.000The second thing I will say, and Jack, you and Charlie know this firsthand, is you become a victim of your own success.
01:06:03.000So Tucker has been massively successful.
01:06:06.000He's been built up to be this thing, he represents the movement and he's the intellectual vanguard of the populist conservative movement and all of these things.
01:06:17.000And then all of a sudden, there's unbeknownst to him, there's now rules applied to him where he's not able to sort of be a human and indulge in random conversations.
01:06:28.000You come on the show and you talk about stuff that you just find interesting.
01:06:32.000And all of a sudden, it's like getting clipped by, you know, the Biden campaign is like Trump surrogate, you know, Jack Kesobic, Trump surrogate, Charlie Kirk.
01:06:42.000And it's like, no, we're not Trump's surrogate.
01:06:44.000Like, yeah, we support him, but we also have our own life and our own show and our own things that we do.
01:06:51.000But it's also like, like, people forget, dude, that Tucker, even after he left his show, I mean, just played this massively outsized role in the presidential primary, like a couple of months ago.