The Charlie Kirk Show - July 26, 2025


THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 92 — Racist Cruise Rules? What Makes An American?


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 3 minutes

Words per minute

177.83473

Word count

11,334

Sentence count

926

Harmful content

Misogyny

6

sentences flagged

Hate speech

47

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

A different type of thought crime. We talk about why cruises are awful, and then we have a great debate about Protestantism and what is an American Catholicism with Jack, Andrew, and Blake. Get involved with Turning Point USA atTPusa.org/turningpointusa.

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Charlie Kirk Show" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, a different type of thought crime.
00:00:01.000 We talk about why cruises are awful.
00:00:04.000 And then we have a great debate about Protestantism, what is an American Catholicism with Jack Pesobic, Andrew, and Blake.
00:00:10.000 Get involved with Turning PointUSA at tpusa.com.
00:00:13.000 That is tpusa.com.
00:00:15.000 Start a college high school or college chapter today at tpusa.com.
00:00:19.000 Buckle up, everybody.
00:00:20.000 Here we go.
00:00:21.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
00:00:23.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
00:00:25.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.
00:00:28.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.
00:00:32.000 I want to thank Charlie.
00:00:33.000 He's an incredible guy.
00:00:34.000 His spirit, his love of this country.
00:00:36.000 He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created, Turning Point USA.
00:00:42.000 We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:00:51.000 That's why we are here.
00:00:54.000 Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of the Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
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00:01:11.000 That is noblegoldinvestments.com.
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00:01:20.000 Okay, everybody, it is Thought Crime Thursday.
00:01:22.000 We're finally back to regular order.
00:01:24.000 I'm in an undisclosed location and we have the whole gang here.
00:01:28.000 I believe we have Blake, Andrew, and Jack.
00:01:31.000 Is that correct?
00:01:32.000 We have Blake, Andrew, and Jack.
00:01:34.000 Hello to all of you.
00:01:36.000 And Jack, I'll just kind of say, how are you doing?
00:01:38.000 Are you enjoying your summer?
00:01:40.000 My enjoying my summer.
00:01:41.000 I mean, it's been a wild summer, right?
00:01:43.000 You know, in terms of obviously the week, you know, it's, you know, we've lost a couple of legends.
00:01:48.000 We lost Ozzie. 1.00
00:01:49.000 We lost Hogan.
00:01:51.000 So that's definitely been something that's put a damper on things.
00:01:54.000 But other than that, you know, summertime has been great, you know, with the family, going out, swimming a lot, getting a lot of sun.
00:02:01.000 We have been enjoying it from that perspective.
00:02:02.000 So it's an interesting question.
00:02:05.000 It's enjoying, but also not enjoying.
00:02:07.000 Blake, you don't seem like much of a summer guy to me.
00:02:10.000 You seem more kind of like autumn to winter.
00:02:13.000 Are you a summer guy?
00:02:14.000 Do you enjoy winter?
00:02:16.000 I mean, Phoenix summer has been unusually gentle, though.
00:02:20.000 Yeah, well, I always tell people when they ask how Phoenix is since I moved here two years ago, you know, what it's like.
00:02:26.000 And I always tell them that I feel lied to because I was told I was moving into a desert.
00:02:32.000 And the actual weird thing about Phoenix is it rains all the time here.
00:02:35.000 It's apparently the wettest desert in the entire world.
00:02:38.000 And like it's rained like three times in the last week.
00:02:41.000 So I feel, I think I enjoyed it.
00:02:43.000 Do you understand how much we love rain?
00:02:45.000 Do you understand?
00:02:46.000 Like this, this makes me so bitter.
00:02:47.000 I haven't been in town the last week.
00:02:49.000 I love rain in Arizona.
00:02:51.000 And we're traveling every time it rains.
00:02:53.000 It's terrible.
00:02:54.000 So don't rub it in my face, Blake.
00:02:56.000 Andrew, are you enjoying your summer?
00:02:58.000 Oh, yeah.
00:02:59.000 I'm a summer guy.
00:03:00.000 You know, the news cycle has been interesting, but the family, the weather, the off hours, which maybe are sparse at times, have been amazing.
00:03:12.000 But yeah, I'm a summer guy, big time.
00:03:14.000 So with that, some people decide to spend their summers on cruise ships, of which I don't know why people would do this voluntarily.
00:03:26.000 Is this some sort of a punishment?
00:03:27.000 Walk me through this, Blake.
00:03:28.000 Are these people being sentenced to the cruise ship?
00:03:31.000 Is this like in lieu of community service after they committed arson?
00:03:34.000 Yeah, no, I don't quite get it, but it is true. 1.00
00:03:37.000 People do, like, they'll decide to spend a bunch of money to leave their comfortable homes and instead sit on like a cramped boat in quarters that are typically smaller than their homes, I will note.
00:03:54.000 And then they're on this boat and it's filled with like noisy people and like a lot of like sometimes gross people.
00:04:01.000 And it's like often very unsanitary.
00:04:04.000 And then they like float on this boat between various, like usually, you know, straddling the line between first and third world a bit countries.
00:04:14.000 And they just hang out with a bunch of people.
00:04:16.000 And if they get sick or die, like the cruise is going to aggressively try to get them off the boat because they don't like it when people die on their boats.
00:04:23.000 And that's what they do.
00:04:24.000 They pay thousands of dollars to do this.
00:04:26.000 They book it years in advance, Charlie.
00:04:30.000 You're reminding me of COVID when like everybody's getting trapped on the cruise ships, when the COVID outbreaks would happen.
00:04:39.000 It's like I vowed then because then it was like a wake-up call to everybody about just how disgusting most cruise ships actually are.
00:04:48.000 I was like, never going to go on a cruise at that point.
00:04:50.000 No offense.
00:04:51.000 I guess we're never going to get a cruise sponsor on this show, but so be it.
00:04:55.000 I don't think we are.
00:04:56.000 What's the word?
00:04:59.000 Listen, and then Blake can walk through this latest news with it, but let me just tell you my whole experience with cruises.
00:05:04.000 Believe it or not, I have been on a cruise.
00:05:07.000 I was done largely against my will.
00:05:08.000 I was stuck on a cruise ship with Brent Bozell, Joe Piscapo, Jason Schaffetz, Alan West.
00:05:19.000 Those are some flash from the past.
00:05:21.000 And some other people.
00:05:23.000 Jack doesn't like this topic.
00:05:24.000 Fine, Jack, whatever.
00:05:26.000 Cruises are a very important topic.
00:05:28.000 And I want Blake to see.
00:05:29.000 So were you on like a national review cruise or something?
00:05:32.000 No, it was not a national review cruise.
00:05:34.000 Okay, it was a media research center cruise.
00:05:37.000 And we started in Rome, of which I wanted to stay longer.
00:05:42.000 And I got super seasick.
00:05:44.000 And we went from Rome to Athens.
00:05:48.000 And we were supposed to then go to like Santorini and then Istanbul.
00:05:53.000 I got off at Athens and I said, you guys have a great cruise.
00:05:57.000 And bye.
00:05:59.000 And I flew back to America.
00:06:01.000 And so I don't understand.
00:06:05.000 They're so dirty.
00:06:07.000 They are crammed quarters.
00:06:10.000 I get seasick all the time.
00:06:12.000 But Jack, I suppose you like cruises a lot.
00:06:14.000 So Jack, make the argument as to why you want to suffer.
00:06:18.000 I hate cruises.
00:06:19.000 I don't know why anybody would want to go on a cruise.
00:06:22.000 I think cruises are ridiculous.
00:06:23.000 I don't think it's a good time, a good way to entertain anything.
00:06:26.000 Tanya's been trying to get me on a cruise since pretty much since we've been together, and I'm just like, Look, I was in the navy, I've spent a lot of time on ships, I have no idea why anyone would want to put them through such.
00:06:40.000 So, here's what it's like, right?
00:06:42.000 I always explain this to people this way, and I feel the same way about cruises, right?
00:06:46.000 So, let's imagine you, and I'll say it in a very short manner: is imagine your work, right?
00:06:52.000 You work at a corporate office.
00:06:53.000 Do you like everyone you work with?
00:06:56.000 Would you like to spend time with everyone you work with all the time?
00:07:00.000 Now, imagine you live in that building and you have to see those people every day.
00:07:07.000 There's no home.
00:07:08.000 There's no leaving them.
00:07:09.000 There's no getting away from there.
00:07:11.000 And also, you're not allowed to leave the building ever because you are at sea.
00:07:17.000 That's what being in the Navy is like.
00:07:19.000 And that's what I think about every time I set foot on a cruise ship.
00:07:22.000 So, why, God, why would anyone think that this is an enjoyable way to spend your time?
00:07:28.000 But then why did you do so many cruises?
00:07:30.000 Was this a parent-led thing, Jack?
00:07:32.000 And you seem to me like a carnival cruise guy.
00:07:34.000 No, no, no, no, no.
00:07:35.000 I mean, no, when I said I've taken so many cruise, I meant because when I was in the Navy, like from being in the Navy.
00:07:41.000 Oh, I see.
00:07:44.000 So, you've never been on a recreational cruise.
00:07:46.000 God, I know Jack doesn't like this top.
00:07:49.000 I've been on one.
00:07:50.000 Listen, listen.
00:07:51.000 Let's all take a step back and let's just kind of look at the horizon here, okay?
00:07:55.000 Now, there's all these different types of cruise companies, okay?
00:07:58.000 So, they're, and by the way, they are, they are relentlessly running ads.
00:08:03.000 I don't know what, I don't know what SEO I have on my YouTube, but I get, I get lots of cruise advertisements.
00:08:10.000 I don't know why, but I get a lot of them.
00:08:13.000 So there's, they go from lower level to higher level.
00:08:16.000 So, there's Carnival, there's the Carnival Cruise Corporation.
00:08:20.000 There's the Royal Caribbean, the Norwegian cruise line, the MSC, and then the Disney cruise line.
00:08:26.000 There's the Viking Ocean Cruise, Ponyat, Asmara, Seaborn, and Windstar cruises.
00:08:32.000 And so, the Blake's, it's funny, Blake says you get these because you're a right-winger who raises money.
00:08:38.000 That is probably true.
00:08:39.000 Do you understand how many cruises I've been invited on?
00:08:42.000 Andrew, can you attest to this?
00:08:43.000 Hold on.
00:08:43.000 I get invited to cruises to Alaska and to Vancouver.
00:08:49.000 As somebody who gets the incoming, the inquiry is like, hey, would Charlie be willing to do this cruise and we'll make it worth your while?
00:08:56.000 And it's like, oh my goodness, no.
00:08:59.000 How many times do I have to say that?
00:09:00.000 I just, at this point, I just say LOL.
00:09:02.000 When I get the invite, I respond.
00:09:04.000 I'm like, LOL.
00:09:06.000 It's such a, but the mentality of who goes on these cruises, and the reason this is topical, and Blake will tell us why in a second, it is, it's like a floating old country buffet meets a bingo hall with everybody getting sick all day.
00:09:25.000 That's a very waspy interpretation of what it is.
00:09:29.000 Oh, but there's another type of cruise.
00:09:31.000 There's another type of cruise that we, shall we say, call it, I don't know, the Spirit Airlines cruise?
00:09:37.000 Okay, so that's a good question.
00:09:39.000 Would you rather fly a cross-country flight at 5 a.m. from Spirit Airlines, LAX to JFK, or would you rather have to do two nights on the Carnival cruise?
00:09:51.000 I think Spirit Airlines.
00:09:53.000 I would take Spirit Airlines.
00:09:56.000 Spirit Airlines.
00:09:57.000 So this is in the news.
00:10:00.000 Blake, why is this in the news?
00:10:02.000 And apparently there's like two forms of people that go on cruises.
00:10:07.000 There's older kind of retirees from the Midwest.
00:10:11.000 They love cruises.
00:10:13.000 And then there's the rambunctious types that seem to be causing a lot of problems right now.
00:10:18.000 What's going on there?
00:10:19.000 Yeah, so you're basically correct.
00:10:22.000 I can attest to many, many Midwesterners loving their cruises.
00:10:26.000 I feel, this will probably offend a lot of people.
00:10:29.000 I feel like cruises appeal to the same demographic that likes going to Disney World a lot, but like older.
00:10:37.000 So like people, you have like Disney adults who go to Disney World and spend a bunch of money on that.
00:10:42.000 If you're an older kind of group of the same thing, you like going on, you know, you go on like a cruise every year or two cruises a year.
00:10:49.000 Anyway, as you know, there are several tiers of cruises.
00:10:52.000 You have the higher end.
00:10:54.000 What are the nicer ones than Carnival?
00:10:56.000 I can't remember all of my cruise lines.
00:10:57.000 Well, there's Viking.
00:10:58.000 I'm trying to remind you.
00:10:59.000 Viking?
00:11:00.000 Viking.
00:11:01.000 There's Disneyland.
00:11:02.000 There's like some Disney ones.
00:11:04.000 Disney does have cruises, of course.
00:11:07.000 Yeah, Viking are the ones that are nice river cruises, I think.
00:11:10.000 Maybe that's normal ones, too.
00:11:12.000 So here's the ranking.
00:11:13.000 Best luxury cruise overall.
00:11:15.000 This is from Forbes.
00:11:16.000 All these people probably paid for this, but take it with a grain of salt. 0.94
00:11:19.000 Ritz Carlton Yacht Collection is the best luxury cruise.
00:11:23.000 Best river cruise.
00:11:24.000 Viking.
00:11:24.000 What are you talking about here?
00:11:25.000 That's a whole separate thing.
00:11:27.000 I'm just saying.
00:11:28.000 There's a whole boundary.
00:11:31.000 There's just an apartment building that floats.
00:11:33.000 Okay.
00:11:33.000 That's all that it is.
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00:12:32.000 Yeah, so the mid-tier ones like Royal Caribbean, of course, has they're kind of the standard ones.
00:12:37.000 And then I'm looking at one ranking, and what's great is they refer to them as entry-level cruises.
00:12:42.000 Like that's one way of describing it.
00:12:44.000 But anyway, one of the entry-level cruise brands is Carnival.
00:12:49.000 My understanding is Carnival especially, they became even more entry-level than usual during COVID because COVID obviously completely bungled up Travel, tons of things got canceled.
00:13:02.000 Cruise lines were absolutely deep in the red, really looking for money.
00:13:07.000 And one thing about cruises is you often book them quite long in advance.
00:13:11.000 They try to fill them up way, way in advance to make sure, you know, they don't have a ton of people buying tickets last minute.
00:13:16.000 And so they were offering these incredibly steep discounts that opened up cruise lines to all sorts of clientele that previously did not go on cruises very often.
00:13:25.000 And this gave Carnival the, as Jack was alluding to, the Spirit Airlines reputation.
00:13:31.000 It is a reputation for not always being the most pleasant thing to go on.
00:13:35.000 And so this led to what we're discussing, which this went viral a few weeks ago, and it kind of went re-viral in the last week or two.
00:13:43.000 It's like echo viraling across the internet.
00:13:46.000 Anyway, Carnival Cruise Line has some updated rules that people are noticing.
00:13:51.000 And I'm just going to read the rules as a summary I found describes it.
00:13:55.000 Number one, stricter drug enforcement.
00:13:59.000 Cannabis, even if legal in your home state, is banned on board because it violates U.S. federal law.
00:14:05.000 And if you do it, you will be removed and banned.
00:14:08.000 Second, a youth curfew.
00:14:10.000 Guests 17 and under must leave public spaces by 1 a.m. in the morning unless accompanied by an adult or part of a supervised teen program.
00:14:21.000 I'll leave number three for last because I think it's the funniest.
00:14:24.000 Number four, Bluetooth speaker bans.
00:14:27.000 Guests may no longer play their own music in public areas.
00:14:31.000 Carnival says this is for general comfort, but some see bias in this.
00:14:37.000 Number five, we have stricter enforcement of drink packages.
00:14:41.000 So Carnival sells a cheers package that gives you a 15 alcoholic drinks per day limit on how many drinks you can get at their bars.
00:14:52.000 And apparently in the past, the enforcement of this was a little flexible.
00:14:56.000 They wouldn't flip out too much if you asked for a 16th or a 17th or a 20th.
00:15:01.000 But now they're cracking down.
00:15:03.000 You only get your 15.
00:15:05.000 They are reporting, this is not an official rule, but this is being reported, that their music genres that their DJs play at the various dance clubs that are on cruise ships, they've been reduced.
00:15:17.000 They are cutting away on hip-hop and rap music that their DJs play.
00:15:22.000 And reportedly, they even decline guest requests far more often than they used to.
00:15:27.000 And then we're going back to number three.
00:15:29.000 This is the final rule that I think is the funniest.
00:15:31.000 They are banning handheld, non-battery-powered fans, like, you know, like the one like a southern lady would fan herself with in a movie or something.
00:15:40.000 Those are banned, and they say it is due to safety concerns.
00:15:44.000 Specifically related, there is a viral song that goes, it has a title that is apparently Where Them Fans At.
00:15:54.000 And as part of the music video in this, they click the fans repeatedly.
00:15:59.000 And I guess that became a meme.
00:16:01.000 People would bring handheld fans on cruises and they would click them and they were hitting people and probably annoying people a lot.
00:16:10.000 So what do you think of that, Charlie?
00:16:11.000 And you can already tell me, I bet, why people are mad about all of these rules.
00:16:15.000 Well, and so then there was an article from The Root.
00:16:18.000 Carnival's new rules got black folks all in their feelings, but others say the cruise line is justified. 1.00
00:16:25.000 Yeah, I mean, I don't, I mean, they say, right, the Carnival rules are racist, is what they are saying.
00:16:31.000 Seems to take that for whatever you'd like.
00:16:34.000 They're discriminating.
00:16:35.000 Yeah.
00:16:36.000 Let's see.
00:16:37.000 Oh, man.
00:16:38.000 Carnival has some very funny tweets in it.
00:16:40.000 One of them they have from someone going by Geechie Barbie.
00:16:43.000 I hope that is not like a gross slang term because I don't know slang.
00:16:48.000 And she tweeted, so Carnival Crews banning fans now because y'all won't stop putting boots on the ground and clacking them, laughing emoji, crying emoji.
00:16:58.000 They even banning hip-hop music.
00:17:00.000 That song has Black America in a chokehold L-M-A-O. 1.00
00:17:06.000 I don't think I've ever heard this song.
00:17:08.000 Can we get like a clip of the fan clicking?
00:17:11.000 I've got to wait to pass judgment on how annoying this song might be.
00:17:15.000 Well, I think we're all in agreement.
00:17:18.000 Cruises are no good.
00:17:19.000 And I'll tell you, I couldn't be punished for being on a cruise.
00:17:25.000 I would throw something else out there.
00:17:29.000 And by the way, if you want to take like a regular cruise, like fine, whatever.
00:17:32.000 But there's this whole culture I've noticed of people like older couples getting reverse mortgages and then spending the money immediately on those like massive, lavish cruises.
00:17:45.000 And it's like, guys, that's going way too far.
00:17:48.000 You're putting yourself and your estate in debt so that you can go on some cruise.
00:17:53.000 Like it's the most ridiculous and flagrant just waste.
00:17:58.000 It's just straight waste that I've ever heard.
00:18:00.000 That's a juicy vein of topic, actually.
00:18:03.000 It's just like you get to a certain point and you're like, I'm not going to pass along any of my wealth to my offspring.
00:18:10.000 I'm going to spend it all as quickly as I can because I earned it and screw them.
00:18:15.000 And like, there's a whole bunch of people that think that way.
00:18:18.000 And reverse mortgages, like, I get it if you're up against the wall and you don't have money coming in, you need the expenses for whatever reason.
00:18:25.000 But, you know, to spend it on a cruise line, like if this is what you're getting for your money, think about it.
00:18:29.000 You could have had generational wealth and legacy or you could have this.
00:18:33.000 Andrew, that's the perfect point, though.
00:18:35.000 Back against the, we need to put people who like cruises against the wall. 1.00
00:18:41.000 Is this like a tweaking or twerking joke?
00:18:43.000 No.
00:18:44.000 Andrew, don't you know your idioms?
00:18:46.000 When you put people against the wall, they go before a firing squad.
00:18:50.000 Ah, no.
00:18:51.000 That is a very blake joke. 0.92
00:18:52.000 That's the thought crime tonight.
00:18:53.000 The thought crime tonight isn't that carnival cruises are bad.
00:18:56.000 The thought crime tonight is that all cruises are bad.
00:18:58.000 And you should feel bad if you go on them.
00:19:00.000 I've never been on one.
00:19:02.000 They are the lowest form of vacation there is.
00:19:06.000 I'm going to stake that one out.
00:19:08.000 Cruises are bad.
00:19:09.000 Like anything, any type of vacation you could go on is better if it's not on a freaking cruise ship.
00:19:15.000 Like do you like, do you like a beach?
00:19:17.000 Go to a beach.
00:19:18.000 You don't want to don't sunbathe on a boat.
00:19:20.000 Just go to a beach.
00:19:21.000 I could see myself doing like a kid-friendly one, if I'm going to be honest.
00:19:26.000 No, do a normal kid-friendly thing.
00:19:29.000 I mean, that's What we do, but I'm just saying, like, if somebody was like, hey, they've got water slides and they take you to the next cool kid location, and then we're, you know, go to the, I don't know.
00:19:40.000 What's a single cool kid location that a cruise ship goes to?
00:19:43.000 Kids just want to go to Disney World, and Disney World is inland.
00:19:47.000 Well, that's true.
00:19:48.000 Let's go to the next topic, shall we?
00:19:51.000 No, no, I feel like we need to like actually lay down the law here on the on the cruise question.
00:19:56.000 Lay down?
00:19:58.000 I found one for Andrew.
00:19:59.000 There's a great one that is called, let's get this one for Andrew.
00:20:04.000 Ah, it's Carnival Celebration Miami.
00:20:06.000 This one sounds perfect for Andrew.
00:20:07.000 He's not going on carnival now.
00:20:08.000 He's going to bring his...
00:20:10.000 I'm booking this for you.
00:20:11.000 I'm going to send it to you.
00:20:12.000 How about that?
00:20:13.000 Boots on the ground?
00:20:14.000 By the way, they are super cheap, I will tell you.
00:20:18.000 It's because they make a ton of money on the liquor and the extras while you're actually on there.
00:20:23.000 So it's, this one sounds perfect for Andrew.
00:20:26.000 The seven-day Western Caribbean from Miami, Florida, the carnival celebration.
00:20:32.000 You go to Celebration Key, Mahogany Bay, Cozumel, and you end back in Miami.
00:20:37.000 Andrew, I'm booking this for you.
00:20:39.000 It's just great.
00:20:40.000 And it's, that's right.
00:20:46.000 You're trying to send me on a cultural experience, Charlie?
00:20:50.000 Hey, you said you wanted to bring your kids.
00:20:52.000 I didn't say, I said, like, you know, I mean, here's my theory.
00:20:56.000 It's like, just like I would spend more to not fly Spirit Airlines, I would probably spend more to not go on carnival, I think.
00:21:03.000 Like, that's fair to say.
00:21:06.000 Okay, let's go to the next topic since we're all so spirited about it.
00:21:09.000 Blake, what were we supposed to talk about today?
00:21:10.000 All right, our opening topic we were supposed to do.
00:21:12.000 Jack really wanted to hit this, so he might know the best lead-in to it.
00:21:16.000 But the question is, what is an American, Charlie?
00:21:22.000 Yeah, so this has been, you know, just probably the most viral thing on, certainly on X all this week.
00:21:29.000 You know, that's sort of in the culture war space, if you will.
00:21:33.000 It really stems from the back of this, I believe was the endorsement win by Omar Fatah over in Minneapolis, and then sort of this impending race in New York City regarding Zoran Mandami.
00:21:50.000 And you're seeing people now who are running for mayor of major cities.
00:21:58.000 There was another, I think it was a city council or representative, a Somalian out of Maine, Maine, you know, was going viral as well this week.
00:22:08.000 And people started really kind of asking the question, you know, guys, can we, you know, can we can we step back for a second here and say, what is an American?
00:22:19.000 Because this has gotten way too far where we're having people who weren't born in this country, in some cases only became citizen a couple of years ago. 0.95
00:22:30.000 And now they're stepping up to now, yeah, South Portland, Maine, okay, and now stepping up to be leaders of some of America's most iconic cities, certainly in the case of New York City.
00:22:44.000 And I think it represents a broader question for the movement and for America writ large when we ask this question, because it gets into all of these issues that we've been talking about, mass immigration, mass migration, the Balkanization of America, the Brazilification of America, the fact that many nations are now being created inside the United States in various locales where we've had these mass migrants be emplaced really predominantly throughout the Obama administration and
00:23:13.000 where our country simply isn't looking like America anymore.
00:23:18.000 And I think it does beg us to actually start asking the question, what is an American?
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00:24:28.000 Andrew, you had some thoughts on this late last night as I was falling asleep.
00:24:33.000 Andrew, what are your thoughts on this?
00:24:35.000 All right.
00:24:35.000 Well, I'll read it because I don't know how good it is, but I was feeling inspired last night.
00:24:40.000 An American is first and foremost someone born in America who speaks English, who is raised here, who is steeped in the Anglo-traditions of common law, blind justice, equal rights, and believes in, or at least has reverence for, the Christian traditions that undergird our laws, customs, and values.
00:24:58.000 An American is also someone who we allow to move here, who works without crime, nor harbors animosity for the country, and who, after a time of painstaking pursuit, gains the incredible rights, freedoms, and privileges of our citizenship.
00:25:12.000 The former should be given extreme deference.
00:25:14.000 The latter should be given away sparingly, far less than we are currently allowing.
00:25:20.000 And then I talk about they should know who George Washington is, Thomas Jefferson, you know, that kind of thing.
00:25:26.000 I mean, I really, it's like, I hate to use the analogy, but it's like, it kind of reminds me of that Supreme Court ruling on porn.
00:25:33.000 Like, you know it when you see it.
00:25:35.000 Like, you know an American when you see one. 0.99
00:25:37.000 Everyone knows what an American is.
00:25:39.000 Yeah.
00:25:39.000 You know it when you hear their turns of phrases, their cultural references, how they interact with you interpersonally.
00:25:46.000 It's not somebody that goes and runs for mayor and says, you know, our home is Somalia.
00:25:50.000 I'm sorry.
00:25:50.000 It's not.
00:25:51.000 I don't care if you were born here. 0.94
00:25:53.000 That's not us.
00:25:54.000 So I would say also an American is someone who is loyal to a creed, which Would be ordered liberty under God, revering the Constitution, owns his land or her land, and believe rights come from the Creator.
00:26:08.000 It's really the birthright of the Declaration of the Constitution, but I would go a step further than that.
00:26:12.000 It's fidelity to this nation.
00:26:15.000 And it's also, you're an American once you have skin in the game. 0.67
00:26:20.000 This is very important.
00:26:21.000 You become an American when you demonstrate that you're part of this project and that you do not have fidelity to another nation.
00:26:30.000 Let's play cut 434.
00:26:31.000 This is the new Maine mayor, Daka Dalakawak, says that her goal is to help our country of Somalia.
00:26:39.000 PlayCut 34 for Deleka Dalakawak.
00:26:41.000 Play Cut 434.
00:26:43.000 Policies, how can the politics in Somalia resonate what we have here in the United States, the democracy that we have?
00:26:51.000 How can you help us be a better country and build back what we used to have back in a long time ago?
00:26:59.000 So hopefully we will be able to help our country, our former country, Somalia.
00:27:05.000 So I don't want to take her out of context there, but it seems like she's talking about her country being Somalia.
00:27:11.000 And just first a little bit of a history lesson, that is South Portland, Maine.
00:27:16.000 South Portland, Maine.
00:27:18.000 Maine is a very remote state that has been completely transformed by mass immigration. 0.99
00:27:27.000 You know, I think kind of the follow-up question of what is an American, and I think what can really like supercharge this is a question, can two people, let's say two people who are both American, both American citizens, both born here, can one be more American than another?
00:27:43.000 And that is where you can really charge it up.
00:27:46.000 And I think it's certainly possible to say the answer is yes.
00:27:50.000 I think Andrew's on the right track where, you know, there's an element of loyalty to America.
00:27:57.000 There's an element of like creedal nationalism to it.
00:28:01.000 But frankly, I think one thing that is underplayed is there are identity elements to Americanness.
00:28:08.000 And so like, for example, I would say you are more American if you identify with America's English heritage.
00:28:17.000 So if you, I mean, if you read like Americans from the 1800s, they very much see their country as a successor to the English nation that we broke away from.
00:28:29.000 And so they would see as elements of American history, not just the American Revolution, not just the settlement of Massachusetts, the settlement of Jamestown Colony, they would also be looking to the Glorious Revolution, the Reformation in England, the Magna Carta, the Magna Carta, of course, Battle of Hastings, if you want to go all the way back to that.
00:28:51.000 That they would see America as an English nation, an Anglo-Saxon nation that broke off.
00:28:57.000 And even if you are not Anglo-Saxon ethnically the way Charlie is, like, I think you actually need to assimilate that fast. 0.85
00:29:05.000 Like, if you assimilate that aspect of American identity into yourself, you become more American.
00:29:12.000 And you have to take kind of America's side implicitly in all American things throughout its history.
00:29:18.000 I think I've heard before, I can't remember where, but like the best, a great marker for whether Hispanic immigrants to the United States have assimilated to America is if like you can ask them, you know, who lost the Battle of the Alamo.
00:29:33.000 And if their answer is we did, and because by we, they mean the American Texans who were fighting at the Alamo.
00:29:39.000 And if they're instead identifying with the army of Santa Ana because they're Mexican, then they're not fully assimilated yet.
00:29:45.000 And I think that's an important aspect of American identity is you really have to try hard to identify with the earliest Americans and where they culturally came from.
00:29:57.000 You are not saying, I am a German or a Russian or a Middle Eastern or an Indian or a Chinese person who happens to have just plunked into America within the last 50 years.
00:30:10.000 And it's not a racial thing.
00:30:11.000 I know they're going to try to cut.
00:30:12.000 Yeah, it was phenomenal.
00:30:13.000 It's not a racial thing, but I love that.
00:30:15.000 So what we should do, and I'm not being sarcastic, Jack, maybe we could riff on this in real time.
00:30:21.000 We should develop five or six similar questions of the one you just developed, right, Blake, as a very simple litmus test, which is, and I don't even know my head, but that one of the, well, the Alamo is amazing.
00:30:33.000 The Alamo one is really, really good.
00:30:36.000 And I think that's so smart, which is like, oh, yeah, actually, I think, what it, Pancho Villa or whatever, the Mexican general one.
00:30:44.000 Okay, great.
00:30:44.000 So now we know that you haven't fully assimilated to this country.
00:30:48.000 Probably like the internment of Japanese Americans or something like that.
00:30:52.000 There's maybe some Asian ones that you could do.
00:30:56.000 I don't know, but that example is great.
00:30:59.000 I don't have any off the top of my head.
00:31:00.000 One that probably think of five or six others.
00:31:03.000 Jack.
00:31:03.000 One that went kind of viral yesterday, the Department of Homeland Security posted a famous painting of Manifest Destiny.
00:31:12.000 And that went super viral because people were saying, how dare you?
00:31:17.000 How dare you do this?
00:31:19.000 This is colonizing.
00:31:21.000 So, you know, what is your opinion of westward expansion?
00:31:24.000 Which isn't necessarily a war in a sense, but it, you know, I suppose you could say it.
00:31:29.000 It is in certain contexts.
00:31:31.000 So do you agree with Manifest Destiny?
00:31:34.000 And just, again, it's a great listness test because you're going to see, or you could say westward expansion if people don't know what that means.
00:31:40.000 What are your thoughts on westward expansion?
00:31:42.000 Do you agree with that?
00:31:43.000 Is that something you have a sense of?
00:31:46.000 It should be.
00:31:46.000 It's pretty good, Jack.
00:31:47.000 I like that.
00:31:48.000 That's a good one.
00:31:49.000 Yeah, because the whole debate is like, are we on stolen land?
00:31:53.000 It's like, no, we weren't into this stolen land debate.
00:31:56.000 We settled it.
00:31:56.000 All right.
00:31:57.000 We settled it.
00:31:58.000 And by the way, you know, if you go back through history, this one always upsets me because if you go back through history, every piece of land has been stolen from somebody else.
00:32:05.000 At what point do you, you know, and it's like that, what's it?
00:32:10.000 Who's the MSNBC?
00:32:11.000 Excuse me, excuse me.
00:32:12.000 Conquered.
00:32:13.000 Conquered.
00:32:14.000 Not stolen.
00:32:15.000 Yes, right.
00:32:15.000 No, that's fair.
00:32:16.000 But what's the, what's Mehdi Hassan, right?
00:32:19.000 And he went on the Jubilee, which Charlie made famous.
00:32:23.000 Thank you, Charlie.
00:32:24.000 This is another one of the viral things.
00:32:26.000 Yeah, this is one of the viral things we need.
00:32:28.000 Shout out to Charlie with the original Jubileeer. 1.00
00:32:30.000 Charlie, I felt like they didn't have it quite dialed in yet when you went on.
00:32:36.000 You went on one of the first episodes, and it just wasn't.
00:32:39.000 Not only that, let me just as a side note: the Jubilee thing, they were just so petrified at how violently the rhetorical violence that occurred during mine.
00:32:51.000 I don't think they've been able to replicate it.
00:32:53.000 I have this superpower.
00:32:54.000 Andrew will be agree, agree.
00:32:55.000 I can get some people to just say and act in ways that they'll never act in any other environment.
00:33:01.000 Literally, they didn't have the word triggered until Charlie was born.
00:33:06.000 Charlie is just wishing harm upon my daughter.
00:33:11.000 It's like crazy stuff.
00:33:13.000 Anyway, no, Jack, I think you're right, Jack, is that the format was so out of, I was the first one in that whole thing, and now it's kind of the light passage in American politics.
00:33:25.000 You know that box in the closet?
00:33:26.000 The one full of old tapes, dusty photo albums, maybe even reels of film?
00:33:31.000 Yeah, that one.
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00:34:23.000 You know, I'll throw a sop to you, Charlie, on the American question.
00:34:26.000 And I can get away with saying this.
00:34:28.000 I think actually like a real facet of being American, and you are like more American if you hit this than if you don't, is like being, frankly, being a Protestant, actually, and having like Protestant Christian ethos, if you will.
00:34:46.000 And that like America was founded, again, by this specific, by like a pretty narrow specific group of people.
00:34:53.000 It was substantially like dissenting Protestants from like Northwestern Europe.
00:34:59.000 And then later, like other Protestants came on. 0.97
00:35:01.000 And then later you had some Catholics from that region.
00:35:03.000 And like, you know, you get more and more sense then.
00:35:06.000 But it's definitely a country that's found on, for lack of a better way of putting it, Protestant values.
00:35:11.000 There's a great book that I recommend to a lot of people.
00:35:14.000 I read it a couple years ago.
00:35:15.000 It's Lone Star by T.R. Fahrenbach.
00:35:17.000 It's a history of Texas, but it's really a history of America.
00:35:21.000 And it just happens to use Texas as the example.
00:35:24.000 And one of the things he points out is he's pointing out when there's these conflicts between Texas and between Mexico, which happens in, you know, with the Alamo, but it happens repeatedly over the course of the 1800s.
00:35:37.000 And he points out that the key difference between them is civilizational, and that the Texans are all Protestants, even the Catholic ones.
00:35:46.000 And the Mexicans are all Catholics, even the Protestants and even the atheists. 0.99
00:35:50.000 He says it that way.
00:35:52.000 And I think there is sort of this ideological component to Americanness.
00:35:57.000 So what would kind of Protestant values be?
00:36:00.000 I'd say there's a lot of like autonomy.
00:36:02.000 There's a lot of go-it aloneness.
00:36:05.000 Like you Protestants love to break away and form your own churches as soon as you disagree on one point of doctrine. 0.81
00:36:11.000 You do that a lot.
00:36:12.000 And that's an American thing.
00:36:13.000 The American thing is it was founded by people who said, screw you, I'm leaving to go start my own club way off on another continent.
00:36:21.000 And that's why America was actually so awesome.
00:36:25.000 Why did the American West get settled?
00:36:27.000 The American West get settled because it was a bunch of people saying, screw it, I'm leaving to start my own thing.
00:36:33.000 The Spanish, Charlie, the Spanish got to America more than about 100 years in advance of the English. 0.81
00:36:40.000 They conquered Mexico by 1520.
00:36:43.000 That's 90 years before Jamestown is getting off the ground.
00:36:47.000 Yet it's the Anglos, the English speakers who are the ones settling into Appalachia, settling into the Great Plains. 0.98
00:36:54.000 Why?
00:36:55.000 Because that was, it was basically in their blood to do that.
00:36:59.000 And it's really astonishing when you read about like New Spain in comparison to California.
00:37:05.000 The Spanish want to settle California. 1.00
00:37:08.000 They want to settle Texas. 0.57
00:37:09.000 And they can't get people to do it.
00:37:11.000 It only happens when they like take soldiers and practically abduct people and make them go there.
00:37:17.000 Meanwhile, the English, like the British crown, one of the reasons the revolution happened was the British crown was trying to stop people from settling Appalachia and they were just going off and doing it anyway.
00:37:29.000 Over and over, American settlers would like run off and start their own states, start their own settlements.
00:37:37.000 And then years later, they would kind of come back and be like, hey, America, can you come in and like help us out?
00:37:42.000 We're setting up states and stuff.
00:37:44.000 I just feel like all of that is, that is a huge part of the American ethos, the American identity.
00:37:54.000 I think we do have to be careful, though, to not separate the identity as well and try to say that it's that you can like import any one, you know, like piece of paper type of creed and say, well, if you just agree with this, you're going to like, like, there's, there's plenty of, for example, I tweeted this earlier this week.
00:38:09.000 You know, there's plenty of Protestants in Africa.
00:38:11.000 There's plenty of Protestants in India.
00:38:13.000 You couldn't just import them here and have America be formed. 0.96
00:38:16.000 Like it wouldn't make any sense.
00:38:17.000 So it's true, but you are also talking about, again, the original Anglo-Saxon settlers and that's who originally, you know, founded America.
00:38:25.000 Those are the people that came here.
00:38:27.000 And it's funny, you know, people will be like, oh, Pesobic, you're like some Polish Ellis Islander. 0.99
00:38:31.000 And it's like, yeah, I never once said that like Hamilton has to be a bunch of Polaks, right? 1.00
00:38:36.000 Like, sure, there were Polish people here, but it was, you know, a couple of generals here and there.
00:38:41.000 You know, the vast majority were Anglo-Saxons.
00:38:44.000 And when you see a lot of these ethics, so again, America was founded by the British Empire.
00:38:48.000 And so you just can't separate the people.
00:38:51.000 And I see people trying to do this over and over and over.
00:38:55.000 And I got into it with Curtis Yarvin a little bit because I was saying, like, that'd be like saying that Rome Was just founded on the worship of Jupiter, and he said, Ah, but the Romans did worship Jupiter.
00:39:04.000 I said, No, I get it.
00:39:04.000 I'm not saying they didn't.
00:39:05.000 What I'm saying is, it was founded by the Romans, and you couldn't just, you know, put some other group of people there and get the same system out of it.
00:39:15.000 You just wouldn't.
00:39:16.000 So, I think it's much more multifaceted than a lot of people want to put into it.
00:39:22.000 Obviously, it's changed over time, and it's certainly grown, and people have assimilated in over time.
00:39:28.000 That's what we're talking about.
00:39:30.000 But if you mess around with that core, if you get too far away from that core too much too fast, that's what leads to this massive instability that we have.
00:39:39.000 And let's flip it around, right?
00:39:41.000 Talk about what we're dealing with now, because we don't have assimilation now. 0.83
00:39:44.000 What we have are these mini ethnic enclaves that have turned into mini nations. 0.68
00:39:48.000 And you don't have to take my word for it.
00:39:50.000 Go listen to them.
00:39:51.000 They talk about our former country.
00:39:53.000 They talk about our home.
00:39:54.000 They clearly view themselves as part of this like greater Somalia or the Somalian diaspora, which has a direct connection to home.
00:40:03.000 And by the way, they do.
00:40:05.000 If you go look at their culture, thanks to technology, you can be on a video, you know, voice chat or, you know, FaceTime with home all day long.
00:40:14.000 Your remittances go back home.
00:40:16.000 So a certain percentage of however much money you make is getting sent back home.
00:40:20.000 You're consuming media from back home all the time.
00:40:24.000 You're speaking many cases in the same language.
00:40:26.000 And you can find, go find me, by the way, one of these deport. 0.52
00:40:29.000 I've yet to find a deportation video where the people can even speak English.
00:40:34.000 I have yet to see a single one.
00:40:35.000 Never wants to attack Tom Homan about this, but you can't even find one where people have assimilated enough to speak the language.
00:40:42.000 They'll say, oh, I've been here for 20 years, 30 years.
00:40:44.000 And why are they not speaking the language?
00:40:46.000 Because they don't have to, because they're living in these mini ethnic enclaves that exist in our own country. 0.99
00:40:52.000 And that's the problem.
00:40:54.000 We're sitting there acting like, oh, these are all Americans.
00:40:56.000 And, you know, the Supreme Court's got birthright citizenship.
00:40:59.000 I got to say, that's a separate question, but I'm not confident that they are going to overturn birthright citizenship.
00:41:05.000 I just, I'm not confident.
00:41:07.000 I think that's got to be changed probably with a new amendment.
00:41:09.000 It's not just crazy because it's such an open assumption.
00:41:16.000 I do agree.
00:41:17.000 Listen, I do agree with Jack.
00:41:19.000 First of all, I love Catholics.
00:41:20.000 That's well demonstrated.
00:41:21.000 But Catholics did not start America.
00:41:24.000 There was one significant Catholic founding, and it was Charles Carroll.
00:41:27.000 Charles Carroll, correct.
00:41:28.000 And Maryland, literally land of Mary, Maryland.
00:41:31.000 Catholic integration came later with the Irish, the Italians.
00:41:35.000 Right.
00:41:35.000 So again, Catholic integration came later, mid-1800s, with the Italians, the Poles, and the Irish, which is great.
00:41:42.000 I mean, it was a phenomenal contribution.
00:41:44.000 The only difference between the Roman analogy, which I don't love from Curtis Yarvin with Jupiter or Saturn or whatever, is that Catholics and Protestants at least have a baseline belief in Christ our Lord and the incarnation and the inerrancy of Scripture.
00:41:58.000 I mean, they have a shared ethic of ethical monotheism.
00:42:02.000 And so, look, but Blake is right, and I know it triggers people like Jack sometimes on social media.
00:42:09.000 Protestantism shaped the American ethos.
00:42:11.000 self-government, individual liberty, moral responsibility, and suspicion of tyranny are all Protestant contributions.
00:42:22.000 Well, yes, I mean, but Anglo-Saxonism.
00:42:24.000 You can't separate that from Anglo-Saxonism. 0.51
00:42:29.000 That was the point I was going to make, right?
00:42:31.000 Is that the Anglo-Protestantism blend is why the Protestantism in Africa does not necessarily hold on because the Anglo-tradition of, which, by the way, is a outgrowth, just so we're clear, of Protestantism, or at least Christianity, separation of powers, consent of the governed.
00:42:51.000 And you see this in Samuel Rutherford, Lex Rex, who was a Protestant thinker.
00:42:56.000 You see this in Blackstone, who was a Protestant thinker.
00:42:58.000 And again, I'm not here to bash on Catholics, even though there was a huge anti-Catholic sentiment that was widespread among Jefferson, Adams, and Madison.
00:43:06.000 They all viewed the Pope and papal supremacy as a threat to the American Republic.
00:43:12.000 But that's fine.
00:43:12.000 I mean, as you all know, the 1774 Quebec Act, which extended Catholic rule in Canada, was cited as one of the intolerable acts leading to the war.
00:43:23.000 And even Catholics were legally barred from going from office or voting in several colonies.
00:43:27.000 But Charlie, I'm not making that argument, a.k.a.
00:43:29.000 the Pope.
00:43:30.000 No, no, no, I'm not saying you're, I'm making this up.
00:43:33.000 Like, I haven't said that.
00:43:33.000 I've said the country was founded by Anglo-Saxons, and Protestantism was circumstantial to that.
00:43:38.000 I disagree with, I mean, no, it's...
00:43:41.000 Correct.
00:43:42.000 Right, which is Anglo-Saxon.
00:43:43.000 I mean, again, so in order for that to be correct, again, 55 out of 56 of them were Protestants, and they were fiercely anti-Saxon.
00:43:54.000 Were they all the same Protestants? 0.90
00:43:55.000 Right?
00:43:56.000 No, that's the whole point of Protestantism, right?
00:43:58.000 Is that there's Presbyterianism, there is Reform, there's Calvinists, there's Congregationalists, there's Quakers.
00:44:05.000 But no, but I mean, again, I just, it's just, I would like Jack to point beyond Charles Carroll that, okay, so I know that Jack is not making the argument that America was founded by Catholics, but you're saying that it was strictly Anglo.
00:44:20.000 Of course, I'm agreeing that it was Anglo, but you have to acknowledge, Jack, if you're being intellectually fair, the robust Protestantism mixed with Anglo.
00:44:31.000 It was not Anglo at all. 0.96
00:44:33.000 If it was only Anglo, then other Anglo colonies that were not Protestant explicitly would have founded great powers.
00:44:41.000 There's something special about that combination that started America.
00:44:44.000 Go ahead, Jack.
00:44:45.000 I cut you off a couple times.
00:44:46.000 No, I'm not necessarily saying that it's not.
00:44:50.000 And I don't want to be very clear about that, nor have I said that anywhere.
00:44:54.000 What I'm saying is that I think a lot of those ethics and those ideals are found in the Anglo-Saxon culture in general.
00:45:04.000 And there's a much deeper discussion as to, say, how much of this arises naturally within the Anglo-Saxons.
00:45:15.000 And that's why Protestantism took off there so much because of this nature of the Anglo-Saxon.
00:45:22.000 And by the way, I say this as a pollock, right?
00:45:26.000 And so it's just something I've noticed.
00:45:28.000 And I suppose You can say it's one or the other, and I don't think you can.
00:45:36.000 I do think you have to say it's both, and it's certainly both, but it's definitely something that you see in the Anglo-Saxon tradition if you look at the history of England, if you look at the history of the English.
00:45:47.000 But I mean, Jack, you would agree if you look at the Catholic Church.
00:45:48.000 But let me ask you a question, though.
00:45:50.000 Even before, certainly well before 15.
00:45:53.000 Do you think in 1700s Catholicism, resistance to tyranny was a Catholic value?
00:45:58.000 I'm not, again, you're making an argument.
00:46:01.000 No, you know the answer is no, and that's fine.
00:46:03.000 I'm not trying to pick on Catholics.
00:46:04.000 It's that the idea of rejection of tyranny, there was literally something called the Calvinist resist.
00:46:10.000 Again, there was literally something called the Calvinist resistance theory.
00:46:14.000 Of course, Charles Carroll, a Catholic, signed on to it, but Catholics were far less likely in the 1700s to have a comprehensive theology to reject power.
00:46:23.000 And part of that just came from the overarching supremacy of the Catholic Church.
00:46:29.000 Of course, they were.
00:46:30.000 But there was something I'm saying, though, that fundamental Catholic ideas and values in the 1700s, and they might have grown and church teaching has evolved, was Catholic values were not necessarily as articulated resistance to tyranny in Calvinism.
00:46:47.000 What Catholic Church were they breaking away from at that time frame?
00:46:51.000 The British had already broken away writ large. 0.98
00:46:56.000 So the Church of England they were coming away from.
00:46:58.000 Sure, fine.
00:46:59.000 I mean, but I guess I'm not.
00:47:02.000 So it's like you keep bringing up the Catholics, but nobody else is bringing that up.
00:47:06.000 Okay, yeah.
00:47:07.000 So again, I just, the question I have to repeat, which is that, again, yeah, there's a lot going on in the chat.
00:47:13.000 Do you think that resistance to government tyranny is a Catholic value in the 1700s?
00:47:23.000 In the 1700s.
00:47:27.000 Well, certainly it was in France.
00:47:29.000 Okay, I don't know enough about that.
00:47:30.000 But let's set up the French Revolution. 0.70
00:47:33.000 I don't think it was Catholics setting up the French Revolution, Jack.
00:47:37.000 Standing up to the Revolution.
00:47:40.000 fighting against the French Revolution.
00:47:42.000 Yeah, I'll let Blake, Blake will be our historian here.
00:47:46.000 Look, I'm not even anti-Catholic in this way.
00:47:48.000 I just want to make sure I don't know, Jack, why you're hesitant to just give a hat tip to Protestantism and be like, thank you for this incredible.
00:47:58.000 And what I'm saying is, from a de-analysis perspective, I think you can't separate it from the fact that it's the Anglo-Saxons.
00:48:06.000 That's all I'm saying.
00:48:08.000 No, I mean, of course we agreed that.
00:48:09.000 But I mean, the P and the Y is the same.
00:48:11.000 It's a chicken or the egg argument.
00:48:14.000 Were they Protestant because they're Anglo-Saxon or did they act in that Anglo-Saxon way?
00:48:18.000 This is very dangerous.
00:48:19.000 This is very dangerous to say that you can separate it.
00:48:22.000 I think it's for our policies today, the way we talk about it.
00:48:26.000 Well, interestingly enough, Jack, when I was writing that thing that I started this whole conversation with, I remember thinking like Protestant, and then I took that out and I put Catholic.
00:48:36.000 And that's, I, I was actually raised Catholic, and so I, but I became, you know, kind of evangelical in college.
00:48:44.000 And so like, I feel very ecumenical spiritually, right?
00:48:48.000 Where I feel a part of both worlds.
00:48:50.000 And so do I. And I'm not.
00:48:52.000 I know you do.
00:48:53.000 We've talked about this.
00:48:53.000 I've got this argument at all.
00:48:54.000 Oh, no, totally.
00:48:55.000 But so like, and I think it's funny because I actually, I find this, what you guys are talking about infinitely interesting.
00:49:03.000 But I was going to add something.
00:49:04.000 We were talking about a brand.
00:49:05.000 Charlie and I were talking about a brand that will remain nameless, but we called it spiritually boomer.
00:49:11.000 And I feel like in some ways, what is an American?
00:49:14.000 You just, it's like, you're almost spiritually American, you know?
00:49:19.000 And I don't necessarily mean Protestant or Catholic.
00:49:21.000 It's like it's an ethos.
00:49:23.000 It's a way you carry yourself, a way you believe, who you obey, who you salute, what you value, what you honor.
00:49:30.000 And I think that, listen, Christians of all stripes are very welcome.
00:49:36.000 And I think once you get outside of that, I think part of the challenge when you're trying to decide what is an American is you have to make it broad enough to something that even everybody on this chat, if we can't all agree what an American is, then we're going to have issues trying to define that as a country.
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00:50:51.000 I totally agree.
00:50:52.000 And Jack, I just want to make one final thing.
00:50:55.000 What you are praising is Anglo-Saxon values.
00:50:58.000 After the break with Rome from Henry VIII, it was not just the political break, it was a cultural rebirth.
00:51:05.000 So it was Protestantism that created the Anglo-Saxon values that you're praising.
00:51:09.000 So you go back to the original catalyst.
00:51:12.000 It was this idea of the King James Bible, which of course Tyndale was killed by the Catholic Church for that, the Book of Common Prayer, and Puritan theology.
00:51:20.000 So again, we can go back and forth, chicken the egg, but what started Anglo-Saxon values that you appreciate?
00:51:26.000 Anglo-Saxon values go back to the break from the Catholic Church.
00:51:30.000 And that happened in the 1500s, 1600s.
00:51:34.000 Or pre, well, I was excuse me, predate the Protestant Reformation by quite small.
00:51:37.000 Of course, no, but the Anglo-Saxon values that you appreciate, which both you and I, free speech, common law, separation of powers, all of that was catalyzed and really was put in motion once Henry VIII broke from Rome.
00:51:51.000 That was the breaking point.
00:51:53.000 Why?
00:51:53.000 One example.
00:51:54.000 Individual liberty became to be a huge idea once people could then have widespread literacy because of the King James Bible, they started reading.
00:52:01.000 They started to say, Well, I'm made of the image of God and I can govern myself.
00:52:05.000 And so, look, I know it seems like it's chicken and the egg, but to go back to the original source, the source was the separation of the Catholic Church and England.
00:52:18.000 Why would you say public literacy has not been a success then, Jack?
00:52:23.000 You know, there's an interesting school of thought on that.
00:52:27.000 I generally like to read.
00:52:31.000 Yeah, I mean, I don't, I've never heard the argument that public literacy is bad.
00:52:35.000 I mean, I might be a Catholic, so you can educate us.
00:52:39.000 The founders were highly influenced by Montesquieu, who was raised in the Huguenot Catholic tradition.
00:52:46.000 Huguenot is not Catholic.
00:52:48.000 No, sorry.
00:52:48.000 You're right.
00:52:49.000 Sorry.
00:52:50.000 I'm reading from Google.
00:52:52.000 I apologize.
00:52:52.000 Besson is descended from the Huguenots.
00:52:55.000 Huguenot family, but received a Catholic education.
00:52:57.000 Sorry, that's why I messed that up.
00:52:58.000 Montesquieu was born into a Huguenot family, but received a Catholic education, outwardly conformed to Catholicism.
00:53:06.000 Yeah, it's all complicated.
00:53:08.000 So when I brought that up at the start, just the Protestant thing, what's interesting is if you go 120 years ago, you have European Catholics who get really annoyed with American Catholics because they literally had a heresy they called Americanism.
00:53:20.000 And it was basically being too American in your outlook, which was basically kind of individualist, a little bit like dissident.
00:53:29.000 They associated a lot with the theological, we would say liberalism of the time, but it was different issues than we had today.
00:53:36.000 And it caused like the Europeans a lot of angst. 1.00
00:53:38.000 And it's kind of funny because now you loop it around the other way and Europeans get irritated with the American Catholics because the American Catholics are often too trad and they're like all dissident. 0.50
00:53:48.000 And like, what do American Catholics do?
00:53:50.000 American Catholics go and they do things like they set up Latin Mass parishes where they like hear the mass in Latin.
00:53:56.000 Like they don't actually do that in Europe much at all.
00:53:59.000 That's a pretty good point.
00:54:00.000 Yeah.
00:54:01.000 That's a really good point.
00:54:02.000 Yeah, you have these.
00:54:02.000 It's really far away from the original topic.
00:54:06.000 Yeah.
00:54:06.000 What is an American?
00:54:08.000 It's not a religious argument.
00:54:09.000 Jack, your turn then.
00:54:10.000 What is an American?
00:54:12.000 I don't think it's an angle.
00:54:12.000 An American is an inheritor of Protestant values.
00:54:17.000 I don't think it's a religious question.
00:54:19.000 What do you think it is, Jack?
00:54:20.000 Yes.
00:54:21.000 Well, I think it's a very important thing.
00:54:22.000 Individual liberty, Protestant value, limited government, Protestant value, rule of law, Protestant value, work, ethic, and thrift, Protestant value, self-governance, Protestants come from Anglo-Christian.
00:54:31.000 You can launder them through Anglo-Saxon, but if you peel back the layers to its core, to the seed, to the birth, to the beginning, it's Protestantism.
00:54:39.000 And everyone has benefited from that, including Catholics.
00:54:42.000 So what does it mean to be an American?
00:54:44.000 It's embracing Protestant values, which is geographically.
00:54:47.000 Like it was the Anglo-Saxon culture that led the Protestant Reformation, for example.
00:54:53.000 Yes, that's why Eastern and Southern and Southern Europe is still predominantly Catholic.
00:55:01.000 Because I would argue, by the way, in the same token, that Polish culture, like I'm from, is inherently more communal, which tends towards more Catholicism.
00:55:11.000 Of course it is.
00:55:12.000 No, I mean, there are downsides to over-indulging in the idea of individual initiative and liberty.
00:55:19.000 Hungary is amazing, obviously.
00:55:21.000 No one here is like anti-some of the beauty of Catholicism, but there's something special here.
00:55:26.000 And we're asking, what is an American, not what is a Hungarian, right?
00:55:31.000 And that's a different question.
00:55:32.000 And we just have to be honest.
00:55:33.000 Again, we're not going to come to some conclusion is that the founding fathers drew from a tradition all the way back from the Magna Carta to the Mayflower Complex to the Declaration to the Constitution, a through line.
00:55:44.000 And the catalytic event was when all of a sudden there was a separation from Rome, King James Bible, mass literacy.
00:55:53.000 People read for themselves.
00:55:55.000 And they said, well, if we can read for ourselves, we can grow for ourselves.
00:55:58.000 We can work for ourselves.
00:56:00.000 We can now toil for ourselves.
00:56:01.000 Why can't we rule ourselves?
00:56:04.000 And that sequencing of thinking started upon the separation of blind obedience to Rome.
00:56:12.000 And that is what built the West.
00:56:14.000 I rest my case.
00:56:15.000 I have a different way to phrase this one.
00:56:17.000 And Jack, I still want to hear that.
00:56:18.000 There's plenty of non-blind obedience to Rome prior to the founding of America.
00:56:23.000 I mean, there's wars, there's all sorts of things that happen.
00:56:27.000 So, Jack, I have a question for you.
00:56:31.000 Is Mom Dani, Zoran Momdani, is he an American?
00:56:36.000 Is he not an American?
00:56:37.000 And why?
00:56:38.000 No, he's not American. 0.76
00:56:40.000 And why?
00:56:41.000 Why is he not American? 0.56
00:56:43.000 It's quite simple.
00:56:43.000 It's everyone knows what an American is.
00:56:45.000 And he's so far beyond any of the, like, what Charlie and I are getting into, which was a great conversation, by the way, but it's very parochial, right?
00:56:54.000 We're still talking about, vastly speaking, the European Christian tradition.
00:56:58.000 And certainly the Anglo-Protestant tradition and Anglo-Protestant people, the British Empire, right?
00:57:04.000 Because that's, who ran the British Empire, founded America. 0.97
00:57:08.000 So the British Empire founds America. 0.77
00:57:10.000 America breaks free, becomes a nation state.
00:57:12.000 And yet you've got this Zora Mandami who's from a completely separate, completely disconnected nation. 1.00
00:57:19.000 Because the question is, what is a nation?
00:57:20.000 A nation is made up of its people.
00:57:22.000 And so, yes, Charlie is 100% correct in saying that is the nation that comprised America at its founding.
00:57:28.000 There are also other nations.
00:57:30.000 Mexico was a separate nation.
00:57:32.000 So there's this idea of magic dirt that anyone can just magically come to America and transform into American.
00:57:39.000 And it's just not true.
00:57:40.000 You know, this is the difference between being American for real versus being an American on paper.
00:57:47.000 So is he on paper an American in terms, does he have legal citizenship?
00:57:50.000 Of course.
00:57:51.000 The same way that in Rome, you could have legal citizenship as a Roman, but it didn't necessarily make you a real Roman if you were not actually a Roman.
00:58:01.000 And it's just as simple as that.
00:58:04.000 And by the same token, I would say Omar Fatah is not an American.
00:58:08.000 He is a member of a different nation with all of these multi-layers combined is the argument that I'm making. 0.73
00:58:15.000 So yes, it's cultural.
00:58:17.000 Yes, it has to do with where you're from.
00:58:18.000 Yes, it has to do with religion.
00:58:19.000 It has to do with your ideas.
00:58:20.000 It has to do with all of these things writ large.
00:58:23.000 Can you become an American?
00:58:24.000 Can people come an American? 0.98
00:58:25.000 Yes.
00:58:26.000 But it's a multi-generational product.
00:58:29.000 It's not something that can be project.
00:58:31.000 It's not something that can be done with just a piece of paper.
00:58:33.000 We have to get going here.
00:58:35.000 We only have a couple minutes left.
00:58:36.000 Andrew, I'll throw it to you if you want to play a couple pieces of tape here.
00:58:39.000 Yeah, I want to.
00:58:40.000 So, this is why I was asking that, Jack, is because this Medi Hassan clip has gone viral.
00:58:45.000 This is a white guy.
00:58:47.000 They frame it as far right, but I'll let you be the judge.
00:58:51.000 466.
00:58:52.000 This is him saying he is a Native American, and I think Medi Hassan is shocked by a white guy saying that.
00:58:58.000 466.
00:58:59.000 I don't know where you are in the UK.
00:59:00.000 You're from India, so I don't know.
00:59:02.000 I'm not from India.
00:59:02.000 Oh, sorry, your parents are from India.
00:59:03.000 So how many Americans?
00:59:04.000 You have your own stake.
00:59:05.000 I'm an American, you know.
00:59:06.000 You're an American citizen?
00:59:06.000 Okay, fair enough.
00:59:07.000 I don't know how you got that, but fair enough.
00:59:08.000 Here's the thing.
00:59:09.000 Are you an American citizen?
00:59:10.000 Absolutely.
00:59:10.000 But here's the thing.
00:59:11.000 I'm not sure how you got that.
00:59:12.000 Okay.
00:59:12.000 Born here.
00:59:13.000 Okay.
00:59:13.000 Born here.
00:59:13.000 And my family lineage is settlers from the 1500s, so I have some stake in the claim here, okay?
00:59:17.000 But sure.
00:59:17.000 A little different.
00:59:18.000 You're a descendant of immigrants.
00:59:19.000 I didn't know.
00:59:20.000 Colonialists.
00:59:20.000 Yeah, nobody else.
00:59:21.000 You don't look very Native American to me.
00:59:23.000 I am Native American.
00:59:24.000 Whites are Native Americans. 0.74
00:59:25.000 What are you talking about?
00:59:26.000 What are you talking about?
00:59:27.000 Whites are Native Americans. 0.74
00:59:29.000 Charlie?
00:59:31.000 I mean, well, first of all, I love the applause in some ways is just like, whoa, because I wasn't anticipating that.
00:59:38.000 So, look, if you look at it, if you look at the technical part of America, yeah, I mean, he is native to America.
00:59:47.000 Yes, that's correct.
00:59:49.000 And if you're talking about natives prior to the founding of America, they also could be called Indigenous people or whatever.
00:59:56.000 And so, look, I mean, the more important question is not the question of who technically is an American.
01:00:03.000 I think Jack is correct on this.
01:00:05.000 No one's interested in the paperwork question.
01:00:07.000 Like, okay, great.
01:00:09.000 The question is, what is this thing that we're trying to uphold?
01:00:13.000 And it is wrought with a lot of people getting angry over it and getting fired up.
01:00:20.000 And I would love the chance to sit down with Mr. Hassan at some point.
01:00:24.000 Is that his name?
01:00:24.000 Mendi Hassan?
01:00:26.000 We could work on that.
01:00:27.000 Mehdi Hassan?
01:00:28.000 I would.
01:00:30.000 He's a Mehi Hassan. 0.99
01:00:31.000 He's a total radical.
01:00:33.000 Jack knows his bio better than I do.
01:00:34.000 Jack's got the receipts on Mehdi Hassass.
01:00:36.000 He's quite radical.
01:00:37.000 Well, by the way, Mehdi Hassan also claims to be a native British.
01:00:40.000 Yeah.
01:00:41.000 Yeah.
01:00:41.000 Because brown people can be native to anywhere.
01:00:43.000 Only whites have people aren't allowed to be native, right? 1.00
01:00:46.000 Yeah.
01:00:47.000 Yeah.
01:00:48.000 This is interesting because I want to contrast this in our final minute here with what, and we don't have to play the clip, but Matt Walsh went after Maria Elvira Salazar, who's a Republican out of Miami.
01:01:00.000 She's Cuban. 0.80
01:01:01.000 I believe she's born in America, right?
01:01:03.000 Am I wrong?
01:01:04.000 In Miami, yeah.
01:01:05.000 Born in Miami.
01:01:06.000 Still has a very thick Hispanic accent, Latin accent.
01:01:10.000 She's a Republican, former TV anchor.
01:01:12.000 And Matt Walsh is coming under some fire for saying, deport her.
01:01:16.000 She's not an American. 1.00
01:01:17.000 So he's saying she's not American.
01:01:19.000 But when I see that clip, it feels completely different.
01:01:23.000 Now, we have blasted Maria Elvira Salazar for her soft amnesty push, probably more than anybody else, actually. 0.99
01:01:33.000 But I would say, like, you know, Cubans, the ones that have come to America and largely are in Florida, they embody an American ethos to me.
01:01:42.000 Like when I look at it, they're grateful.
01:01:44.000 Our Secretary of State is Cuban.
01:01:46.000 Yeah, exactly.
01:01:47.000 Marco Ruby is 10 out of 10.
01:01:49.000 They're grateful.
01:01:53.000 They love markets.
01:01:54.000 They love the Constitution, the rule of law.
01:01:56.000 They're anti-tyrant.
01:01:58.000 I mean, they have so much about them that I love and that I naturally feel kinship with.
01:02:05.000 And so, again, it's sort of like, what is an American?
01:02:08.000 It's not necessarily, I even wrote in my little thing, I didn't read that part, but it's most likely you're white. 0.56
01:02:15.000 I mean, just by stats, by history, yeah, white probably helps be an American. 0.88
01:02:20.000 But if you're not white, don't be antagonistic to those who are and don't be bitter about it.
01:02:26.000 Be grateful to live in the country.
01:02:28.000 I think those things matter still, right?
01:02:30.000 And I guess, you know, if you go down certain rabbit holes online, that wouldn't that wouldn't fly.
01:02:35.000 For me, it does, especially when I look at the Cuban community in Miami.
01:02:39.000 But I would say, like, in general, we have to, I would love to see us do an immigration moratorium. 0.99
01:02:45.000 We got to deal with how many we've had come in this country who are not American, and yet they're living here. 1.00
01:02:50.000 They're walking around us, and they don't represent kinship or community or brotherhood from a nation standpoint.
01:02:59.000 We got to dash everybody.
01:03:00.000 Just as a reminder, though, I do want to reiterate, we're not saying that being an American is inherently anything racial.
01:03:06.000 We actually reject that.
01:03:07.000 We are saying, though, that it's more than just paperwork and it's more than just a set of ideas.
01:03:13.000 I think that it's very good to ask, you know, to ask the question this semester, you know, hey, not only what is a woman, but what is an American?
01:03:23.000 Something to think about.
01:03:24.000 What do you think an American is?
01:03:26.000 Email is freedom at charliekirk.com and subscribe to our podcast.
01:03:30.000 God bless you guys.
01:03:31.000 Keep committing thought crimes and don't you dare step foot on a carnival cruise.
01:03:37.000 Talk to you soon.
01:03:38.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.
01:03:39.000 Email us as always freedom at charliekirk.com.
01:03:42.000 Thanks so much for listening and God bless.