The Charlie Kirk Show - THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 96 — The Great Flag Burning Debate

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, it's Nancy Charlie Kirk show Thought Crime with the gang.

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00:00:14.000 Buckle up everybody here.

00:00:16.000 We go.

00:00:16.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:00:18.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

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00:00:24.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

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00:00:28.000 He's an incredible guy.

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00:00:50.000 Okay, everybody, welcome.

00:00:51.000 It is Thought Crime Thursday.

00:00:52.000 I'm really excited for this Thought Crime because I'm going to watch our panel debate.

00:00:57.000 I'm going to chime in a little bit because it's going to be about topics where one topic in particular, I'm not really sure.

00:01:02.000 where I fall.

00:01:03.000 We have Jack, we have Blake, we have Tyler, a lot to cover.

00:01:07.000 Of course, the biggest event in the history of Western civilization, the biggest event since the resurrection, Taylor Swift is now engaged to Travis Kelsey.

00:01:14.000 We will get to that, obviously bigger than the American founding, the Emancipation Proclamation, storming Normandy Beach, and honestly, the biggest thing ever.

00:01:23.000 So instead, what we're going to do is we're going to debate flag burning.

00:01:28.000 From what I understand, President Trump signed an executive order saying that flag burning shall be illegal based on the laws.

00:01:36.000 Jack, why don't you go through just the facts of it and then state your position?

00:01:40.000 Because Jack, you've been really going all in on this.

00:01:42.000 Yeah, no, thanks, Charlie.

00:01:44.000 So the flag burning EO, the way that it's been reported on has been, you know, sort of, I would say sort of facetious and deceptive because what's really interesting about the flag burning EO is it's actually an executive order about the protection of the American flag, but it cites, for example, the Supreme Court ruling.

00:02:07.000 essentially of protecting the flag burning act itself, which goes all the way back to the storied American founding years of 1989.

00:02:16.000 So really a longstanding American tradition of the protection of flag burning.

00:02:21.000 Yeah, it's not at all.

00:02:22.000 And what the EO actually does is it allows for the prosecution of people who burn the flag with intent to incite or if there is imminent criminal action associated with the burning of the American flag and then also prioritizes that if you are say burning a flag outside the White House in a public park,

00:02:46.000 which happened I think the day of or the day after this EO was signed in Lafayette Square Park right there in on the north side of the White House where there was a guy who set it on fire.

00:02:56.000 And in fact, he was charged, but he was charged with setting a fire in a public park.

00:03:01.000 So the interesting thing about this EO is it doesn't actually ban the burning of flags.

00:03:08.000 It does so when they claim there is.

00:03:11.000 an intent to incite imminent violence.

00:03:14.000 So it's really covering this, you know, public areas, these riots.

00:03:17.000 They talk about the LA riots in the EO and the fact there were, you know, foreign nationals burning our flag in our own cities and no one was even arresting them or doing anything about this.

00:03:28.000 And the fact of the matter that we should protect the flag based on the basis that national origin is in fact a protected class in this country under existing law.

00:03:40.000 And American national origin is an example of that.

00:03:43.000 Therefore, you know, using the language of the left, basically, when they say it's a hate crime to burn say a trans flag or a pride flag and while they're saying that burning the American flag is an act of hate against people who are from America which is exactly true and so the EO itself just to summarize doesn't actually ban flag burning I would go a step further though personally and say that yes we should ban flag burning and it's completely constitutional Blake your reply dive into it the

00:04:14.000 messier the better Yeah, yeah, so he is correct.

00:04:17.000 The constitutional precedent that you can't ban flag burning is relatively recent.

00:04:23.000 It's Texas v.

00:04:24.000 Johnson.

00:04:25.000 I think it was in 1989.

00:04:26.000 I will note Justice Anton and Scalia was in the majority on that case.

00:04:32.000 It actually is a little unusual because Scalia was in the majority and then like the main dissent was from Justice John Paul Stevens who was a left-wing member of the court but had a very strong opinion that actually banning flag burning was completely fine for basically powerful symbolic reasons.

00:04:50.000 I think he was the oldest guy on the court and he just had very strong feelings about the flag and so I can understand how that does inspire strong feelings from people.

00:05:00.000 My take, I'm basically, I'm a free speech absolutist.

00:05:04.000 think uh the vast majority of things that can be interpreted as speech should be allowed to be interpreted as speech and we should not go around saying that means of expressing yourself are uh

00:05:32.000 Or in the U.K. right now, there's a guy who burned a Quran outside an embassy.

00:05:37.000 He got prosecuted and fined.

00:05:39.000 I think there was even someone somewhere burned a Quran and got stabbed.

00:05:43.000 And then they were basically indicted for inciting a stabbing of themselves.

00:05:48.000 I can't remember where that was though.

00:05:50.000 And like that's the direction we're headed is like if we're going to have it be okay to ban like symbolic gestures, we're headed in the direction where the symbols, what we're going to ban is blasphemy.

00:06:02.000 And what can you blaspheme against in the 21st century?

00:06:05.000 You can blaspheme against gay stuff. 0.98

00:06:08.000 You can blaspheme against Islam. 0.96

00:06:10.000 You can blaspheme against a lot of like modern dogmas that are themselves quite new.

00:06:16.000 And I would say in modern America, our best defense against that is very, very strong, robust free speech laws across the board.

00:06:26.000 And frankly, I think it was a triumph.

00:06:28.000 I think America was at a great peak when our attitude of free speech was basically anything goes.

00:06:35.000 And yeah, that wasn't always the case.

00:06:37.000 But I think that is a case where the wider and wider our free speech protections got, the better America was actually getting as a country.

00:06:45.000 Because yeah, we weren't always super robust on it.

00:06:47.000 I mean, before the Civil War, you had a lot of restrictions on speech related to slavery and such.

00:06:54.000 I don't think that was a good thing.

00:06:58.000 And also we've had laws against obscenity.

00:07:02.000 We've had actual blasphemy laws in the states in the past.

00:07:06.000 We've had, you know, and, and, you know, prior to this, many states had, uh, had restrictions against burning the flag.

00:07:12.000 Oh, okay.

00:07:13.000 So sorry, sorry, Tyler, go ahead.

00:07:16.000 So real quick, one thing that Jack brought up that I thought was really interesting is someone made the point that, uh, you know, burning a flag with this new EO in front of federal employee is part of that whole incitement act.

00:07:30.000 I just heard someone talking about that, I think yesterday, which I think is really, you know, really moving because I I generally agree with Blake that, you know, let people do whatever they want to do.

00:07:43.000 But that whole concept of people that are mentally ill using the flag to try to invoke some kind of violence or incite some kind of violence is generally kind of the MO that we've seen from these people.

00:07:59.000 So like going in front of the White House and lighting stuff on fire is probably not, you know, all mentally there and probably not good for society.

00:08:06.000 And I think that's that's part of the conversation.

00:08:08.000 And so, you know, I've been kind of more pulled towards, hey, you know, most of the people who are doing these acts are actually going and like putting people in danger.

00:08:17.000 Like, again, federal.

00:08:19.000 employees, people who are, you know, just trying to do their job on a daily basis.

00:08:24.000 They're showing up, you know, actually violently and loudly saying how much they hate America going in front of America.

00:08:32.000 So I've been kind of more pulled towards that side of things, which is like, yeah, we shouldn't, this is probably not healthy for society to allow this to go on, especially when it puts people in harm's way.

00:08:42.000 Well, but I think that's exactly the area that we're showing.

00:08:45.000 Like, is just going to add that there's a go ahead.

00:08:48.000 I do have a question.

00:08:49.000 No, I'm just going to add that.

00:08:50.000 And before I, before I, you know, respond to Blake's, uh, facile, libertarian, uh, argument that, um, it's.

00:08:56.000 it that area where we're showing those images um that's a tourist area it's one of the most high traffic tourist areas in washington dc um i've i've had my kids in that area for like like multiple times just in the last couple of weeks so i mean people are coming there to set things on fire plus not only that i mean we've we've also seen in washington dc and New York, people setting themselves on fire as forms of protest.

00:09:20.000 So it definitely leads to that type of Aaron Bushnell, I think was in New York.

00:09:25.000 And there was another guy who set himself on fire in D.C. It didn't get as much coverage because I don't think it was on video.

00:09:30.000 But, you know, there's obvious harm to others or, you know, potential for harm.

00:09:36.000 You can't just go around setting fires in cities to begin with?

00:09:40.000 Well, first of all, it's obviously a good thing if it inspires left-wingers to set themselves on fire.

00:09:45.000 But in addition, no, I think what the objection that Tyler brought up actually gets exactly at how rapidly and immediately this starts escalating, where, okay, burning a flag is inciting violence against federal employees.

00:09:59.000 How?

00:10:00.000 How? 1.00

00:10:00.000 That's not saying we should kill federal employees is inciting violence against federal employees saying let's go over to that federal employee and shoot him in the head. 1.00

00:10:08.000 That's inciting violence against federal employees saying like you burned a flag. 0.72

00:10:11.000 So that's a threat against the.

00:10:13.000 But Blake, you just said you were free speech absolutist.

00:10:15.000 The three million.

00:10:16.000 You just said you were free speech absolutist.

00:10:18.000 So I am a free speech absolutist.

00:10:20.000 So would you say that's protected or not?

00:10:22.000 Well, no, because we have a long established thing that you can't literally just go and do a criminal action and call that free speech.

00:10:29.000 Like conspiracy is not covered by by freedom of speech like conspiracy is not covered by freedom of speech actually like going and committing crimes is not covered by freedom of speech but people are generally surprised by how far you can go in terms of advocating bad things and still not run a fall of freedom of speech laws.

00:10:47.000 You pretty much can say, like, I think we should overthrow the federal government and it doesn't violate freedom of speech under what I mean.

00:10:53.000 Because the statute, of course, is is you have to take some kind of action in furtherance of the conspiracy.

00:10:58.000 So if you and I are texting and we make a joke about that, it's it's just a joke.

00:11:03.000 But if we then take an act to this, this is came up in like the Whitmer plot, for example.

00:11:09.000 They said they were talking about things and then they went and start got into this van.

00:11:13.000 And, you know, of course, there were like federal agents all over it.

00:11:16.000 But then it was the act of driving around Whitmer's, you know, residence and her.

00:11:22.000 her area they claimed that was a surveillance route so that was the act in furtherance of it so the speech itself wouldn't have been enough to trigger the conspiracy statute it was the actual you know act towards the conspiracy.

00:11:33.000 And similarly with incitement.

00:11:35.000 So yeah, finish the thought, like then I have a question.

00:11:37.000 Well, so I was saying similarly with incitement, like to actually reach incitement, traditionally you need multiple elements that like would point towards directly and immediately doing a criminal act.

00:11:47.000 So you can't even say like you could pretty much say we should kill federal employees.

00:11:51.000 And that's actually fine, actually, legally. 0.76

00:11:54.000 It's not good to do, of course.

00:11:56.000 But if you're saying we should go and kill, you like have a specific person or a specific time or a specific place.

00:12:02.000 You need usually two of those things.

00:12:04.000 So once you have those, you're advocating a specific criminal act and then you're directly inciting a criminal act, but just burning a flag, who are you specifically calling to target?

00:12:15.000 there's nothing there.

00:12:16.000 And that's again, how it immediately can becomes abusable where, oh, you Well, you have to go to jail because actually you're inciting violence against Muslims.

00:12:28.000 And you've said this a couple of times now, and you're acting as if people wouldn't go to jail or face repercussions for those things when we've seen multiple instances of that.

00:12:35.000 And they should have.

00:12:38.000 We can't set the precedent, but we already live in the country where we have these precedents.

00:12:43.000 So we're going to make that stronger.

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00:13:50.000 J6, they threw people away in jail for waving flags. 0.91

00:13:54.000 Yeah, I think that's bad.

00:13:57.000 I don't want to loosen our constitutional norms so that we can make it easier to send people to jail for that.

00:14:02.000 But it's not a norm.

00:14:04.000 Here you go again saying it's a constitutional norm when we've already established this has only been around since 1989.

00:14:09.000 Like this is so here's a great example.

00:14:12.000 Roe v Wade was what, 1976 or 1973?

00:14:15.000 1973.

00:14:16.000 Something like that.

00:14:17.000 So that law, that ruling was more of a quote unquote constitutional norm, the Roe v Wade ruling, which created this right to abortion that's nowhere in the Constitution.

00:14:28.000 And then year and conservatives fought against that for fifty years because it's obviously not in the Constitution and it's obviously an immoral act and it's obviously wrong.

00:14:37.000 Then you have this flag burning protection, which was just read into the Constitution by a bunch of libs.

00:14:43.000 And yeah, okay, he's got Scalia to go along.

00:14:45.000 Who cares?

00:14:46.000 He can still be wrong, even if he's Antony and Scalia.

00:14:48.000 That argument doesn't carry any weight with me.

00:14:51.000 He's wrong.

00:14:52.000 We have a long history of freedom of speech.

00:14:54.000 Added to the Constitution in 1989, you can't be wrong.

00:14:56.000 history of freedom of speech in the United States.

00:14:59.000 It's not speech.

00:15:00.000 It's clearly.

00:15:02.000 Well, it's expression.

00:15:03.000 It is on his face, not speech.

00:15:04.000 Expression is not obviously a physical act of speech.

00:15:08.000 If you want to take it literally then, like things that you can't imagine anything that would fall under the banner of freedom of speech that isn't literally.

00:15:14.000 I don't think that burning a flag is speech.

00:15:16.000 don't think that pornography is speech.

00:15:18.000 I don't think that any of these things are speech.

00:15:20.000 Let's Anything you publish on the internet, that's not speech.

00:15:23.000 You didn't speak it.

00:15:24.000 Writing a speech.

00:15:25.000 No, oh, but this press, it doesn't say writing a speech.

00:15:27.000 Writing in spoken word is the press.

00:15:29.000 That's the right to speech and spoken word.

00:15:30.000 That's the right to speak things.

00:15:32.000 Like from a press.

00:15:33.000 If you want to get really literal, suddenly on the internet, that's not the press.

00:15:36.000 But we don't have a right to publish in this country.

00:15:38.000 Actually, you do.

00:15:40.000 We repeatedly have rulings to that effect.

00:15:43.000 That's what Citizens United was about, that they couldn't restrict the right to publish a book criticizing Hillary Clinton.

00:15:47.000 You don't have a right to force You don't have a right to force a company to keep something online.

00:15:54.000 No, of course you don't.

00:15:55.000 Just like you don't have the right to force anyone to say something.

00:15:57.000 But you absolutely have the right to yourself publish something online.

00:16:05.000 We don't think we do.

00:16:08.000 I'm not really being super literal.

00:16:10.000 I'm saying that it is completely nonsense to claim that burning a flag is speech.

00:16:14.000 It's just on its face nonsense. 0.99

00:16:15.000 It's ridiculous. 0.99

00:16:16.000 Well, so let me ask. 0.87

00:16:18.000 So this invites other questions.

00:16:20.000 So, Jack, do you have the right to pray, let's just say silently.

00:16:30.000 express the like a catholic ceremony is that speech or is that expression and do you have a right to that well you have a right to the free exercise of religion which is separate from the right for speech right well okay so they're both in the first amendment but you are correct one is the establishment clause and one is the free expression clause right so it it technically but it doesn't say expression it says it's not speech the word expression is not in the constitution right correct but the essence so Blake is right.

00:16:59.000 You're being a little bit woodenly here, right?

00:17:02.000 So just, just, I'm being very careful about this, Charlie, because this is how Marxists get in, and this is how they sneak abortion and all these other things into the constitution that just aren't there.

00:17:11.000 I think we need to be really careful if we're adding words.

00:17:13.000 Right.

00:17:14.000 So, okay, you're right.

00:17:16.000 So expression is not in there, but exercise is, just so we're clear, right?

00:17:21.000 So, and abridging freedom of speech or of the press or the right of people to peaceably to assemble.

00:17:28.000 And so there are things beyond just the spoken word.

00:17:31.000 Peaceably assemble.

00:17:33.000 This is not trying to make up my mind here.

00:17:35.000 I want to note something very important.

00:17:37.000 It specifically says peaceable.

00:17:38.000 The founding fathers would not have—political expression existed in the time of the founding fathers.

00:17:45.000 People were tart and feathered.

00:17:46.000 There was the burning of effigies of King George III.

00:17:49.000 they had just gone through all of this time and time at the Boston Tea Party um so apparently we should be able to have ban that.

00:17:57.000 That's a lot more violence than banning a flag.

00:18:00.000 But the founding fathers, in their wisdom, sought not to give those the same level of political protection as they did for speech.

00:18:07.000 How do you know that?

00:18:08.000 I think they would have probably been pretty pro-burning.

00:18:10.000 Because I've read the constitution.

00:18:11.000 It's right there.

00:18:11.000 I can get you a copy.

00:18:12.000 Oh, did they say that we wrote it that way to make sure you can't burn things in effigy anymore?

00:18:16.000 Because I know that during that era, they still burned people in effigy.

00:18:18.000 They burned John Jay.

00:18:20.000 I'm not saying it brought that.

00:18:21.000 You're beleaguering the point.

00:18:23.000 What I'm saying is...

00:18:41.000 I'm just saying it doesn't have the same constitutional protection, which would mean that it's up to the states.

00:18:47.000 And I would say this is exactly what was found in Dobbs.

00:18:50.000 And I would say this, Blake, the burning of an effigy has far less societal impact than the entire constitutional.

00:19:00.000 Hold on, hold on.

00:19:01.000 You know, you know, that doesn't make any sense.

00:19:03.000 You said it was okay to ban burning a flag because it could incite violence against federal employees.

00:19:08.000 Burning an effigy of a specific person, that's more incites violence against a specific target than burning a flag.

00:19:15.000 You know that's true.

00:19:17.000 And that individual, if that has, like, and if there's conspiracy like Jack brought this up.

00:19:22.000 Well, I think that's true, but see, but Tyler, I think you're making a different point, right?

00:19:26.000 You're like, that's, that's true.

00:19:27.000 Obviously, that's obviously true.

00:19:28.000 But, but, Tyler, you're making a different point about the national implications, right?

00:19:32.000 The total national implications of allowing a country to, to, then down the slippery slope of being anti American, anti Team America.

00:19:42.000 I mean, look, I'm wearing my USA sweater just for this debate, which is just right now, which is that an individual is far more protected than if you allow a country to go down the slippery slope.

00:19:55.000 of having the entire brand for what you're doing, just completely burned on the sidewalk right in front of the White House.

00:20:03.000 That's the that shouldn't be allowed.

00:20:06.000 Most people feel, I mean, you watch that happen.

00:20:09.000 Most normal people look at that and they go, this is not something that stands up for our American values.

00:20:16.000 All those things.

00:20:17.000 You have people who attack individuals.

00:20:21.000 Again, effigies, I think are a totally different.

00:20:24.000 So let me ask you a question.

00:20:26.000 Yes.

00:20:27.000 So, Jack, should it be legal to burn Mother Mary publicly?

00:20:32.000 No.

00:20:32.000 Why?

00:20:33.000 That's free exercise.

00:20:34.000 Should it be legal to hold on, hold on.

00:20:37.000 Because you're violating the law to burn the Koran. 0.96

00:20:39.000 Hold on, hold on.

00:20:40.000 Please, guys, I literally should it be legal to burn the Koran? 1.00

00:20:44.000 Should it be legal to burn the Koran? 0.98

00:20:47.000 No.

00:20:48.000 Okay.

00:20:49.000 Again, because of the freedom of religion clause.

00:20:53.000 Right, but...

00:20:54.000 How does that fall?

00:20:55.000 So we're not allowed to burn other people's texts because of...

00:21:01.000 Well, I guess I'm, I'm, you know, if you have a personal copy, I think that't for certainly not necessarily say that as the flag.

00:21:14.000 Well, no, hold on.

00:21:15.000 It's important because what you're getting at is you're getting back towards the desecration of symbols that have reverence towards a people, right?

00:21:23.000 That's the whole idea of the flag, right?

00:21:25.000 Is that the flag is holy?

00:21:26.000 It should be separate.

00:21:27.000 That's why we have flag rules.

00:21:28.000 That's why it shouldn't hit the ground.

00:21:29.000 That's why you retired a certain way.

00:21:31.000 That's why you folded it a certain way, right?

00:21:33.000 That's the essence of all this, that the flag is more than just cloth that it represents.

00:21:37.000 It's a civic symbol that unites all.

00:21:39.000 But so the, I guess the question is that would you, would you limit it that?

00:21:44.000 Would you extrapolate that kind of limitation towards any other places of, you know, reverential significance?

00:21:55.000 Or is it just the flag?

00:21:57.000 For example, should you?

00:21:58.000 I am saying, I'm just saying that, you know, given the reading of the Constitution versus, you know, sort of my own personal beliefs, is that, is that that power is left up to the states?

00:22:09.000 Okay.

00:22:10.000 So let me ask a different question then to Blake, which would be a tougher question.

00:22:15.000 And that would be a question I'm curious.

00:22:17.000 Blake, do you think freedom of expression or whatever, freedom of speech or exercise thereof, is it a means or is it an end?

00:22:26.000 Is the end free speech or is free speech to lead us towards something?

00:22:30.000 I think it's both.

00:22:32.000 I think it is a valid means in the sense that I think freedom of speech emerged from a cyclical period that we went through for hundreds of years, not so much in America, but especially in Europe, in England, the country that gave birth to us, where you had cyclical patterns of ideologically driven violence.

00:22:50.000 against people based on their religious beliefs, based on their political beliefs, in which huge numbers of people died.

00:22:56.000 Like a higher percentage of Britain died in the English Civil War than died in our own civil war.

00:23:02.000 And that was a very ideological war.

00:23:04.000 And the norms of freedom of speech developed after that as essentially this is our proxy to make make sure we don't kill each other.

00:23:10.000 And the way you do that is you have a much stronger right to express yourself.

00:23:15.000 And the desire to crack down on what people are saying is always a prelude to the desire to do other things to marked ideological enemies.

00:23:23.000 But I also think it's a valid end in and of itself because I think what freedom of speech is recognizing, like what it's deriving from, is it's very tyrannical to basically assert control over another person's conscience, which you're effectively doing when you're saying you are not allowed to make this form to basically state this view or to make this form of expression.

00:23:46.000 And yeah, I'll acknowledge that burning the flag is probably the edgemost case because it is, you know, it's a physical act as opposed to stating some sort of religious idea or political idea directly.

00:24:00.000 But I think it's an important edge case and I think it's actually valid to defend that edge case.

00:24:06.000 And I think we're already seeing the issues with that, which is once you're saying it's, you know, it's okay to ban this form of symbolic expression, let's ban other forms of symbolic expression.

00:24:17.000 I think it's good to be in a country where we can burn the Quran, which they can't do in European countries. 1.00

00:24:23.000 Let me take Charlie's question one step further.

00:24:26.000 Do you agree with the burning of the US Constitution?

00:24:30.000 Do you think the US Constitution should be it should be legal to burn the US Constitution in front of the White House?

00:24:36.000 Yeah, I'm subject to I think people are kind of mixing it up when they say, oh, well, there's arson laws. 0.95

00:24:44.000 Yeah, we already have arson laws. 0.57

00:24:45.000 You can't do something manifestly unsafe.

00:24:47.000 In the same way they can't blockade traffic and call it speech.

00:24:51.000 But if you have the right to any place where we have the right to burn anything, it should include by extension the right to, yeah, burn the flag, burn the Constitution, burn any book.

00:25:04.000 Charlie Kirk here.

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00:26:10.000 The reason why this topic is so good is that it is the meeting point, the convergence of a rights-based legal regime and society and a duty and obligation-based society.

00:26:25.000 And that's why this issue is so good, because it hits together of, wait, do we have any sort of sacrosanct objects or duty to something bigger than ourselves?

00:26:37.000 And you kind of combine all these things together, it makes it a very interesting issue.

00:26:41.000 Tyler, you were saying something.

00:26:43.000 No, and that's actually right in line with where my thought process was, was you have to have some of these symbolic elements within the society to be able to establish culture and for people to largely respect the culture.

00:26:56.000 I mean, we talk about Russian culture all the time during this Russian Ukrainian conflict.

00:27:02.000 We talk about other places oftentimes.

00:27:05.000 There are things that are just not allowed to be touched in other places that allow for the establishment of a culture where you the sanctity of the US constitution, the American flag should be something that as a culture, you can't touch.

00:27:24.000 Otherwise, there's no way to protect all of the other things.

00:27:28.000 And I, you know, I'll kind of, and again, I don't know if this is the point Charlie was making with was provoking with some of this was if you allow those things to happen, it makes it so much easierier for, especially if you're letting in millions of immigrants into this country. 0.88

00:27:43.000 It makes it so much easier just to tread all over what makes this country culturally relevant.

00:27:49.000 And that's a real problem, I think, for a lot of people.

00:27:52.000 Well, well, Tyler, just to follow up on that, like you're talking about things that just don't work in a country that has mass migration like we have, right?

00:28:02.000 So when we were at the, it's not 1989 anymore, right?

00:28:07.000 So the things that, like the tail end of sort of like the boomer countercultural movement, uh, right before they all started, you know, moving into office themselves was was this ruling and it's the country is vastly different than it was 40 years ago uh the country is vastly more diverse than it was 40 years ago we're in a prop we have a problem in this country right now because we have these mat these massive uh multinational mini nation enclaves 0.94

00:28:38.000 all throughout the country we have a situation where a guy who just became the uh you know just became an american citizen is about to be the mayor of new york uh you have people like umar fatah who was running in um in in gosh in minneapolis which has this horrific killing.

00:28:55.000 I don't know what his current status is because they pulled his endorsement or whatever.

00:28:59.000 But, you know, we're in this situation where the reason that we are seeing the rise of populist nationalism is because we are having this very directly rally around the nation moment.

00:29:10.000 And in a rally around the nation moment, you must protect your most sacred object to your nation.

00:29:17.000 That's why when I talk about this like, you know, would I support this ban or this protection or that ban?

00:29:23.000 You know, the reason that I come down for a federal ban on flag burning is specifically that because we need to have sort of the one symbol to rule us all and and it's that and then you know you know Blake just comes out here simping for commies hardcore like please please let the commies burn our flag it's like why are conservatives so obsessed with helping our enemies to be able to conduct their means only radical communists want to do that but it's like people who support this just just

00:29:54.000 one to lose if you just want to lose guess what this is a legitimate question like i have a question for you actually it's a legitimate question and i don't know if this is true or not but in the vatican would you get thrown in jail for burning you know an effigy of the mother of mary no idea i i don't know does the vatican even have a jail it's it's like not very big i imagine i'm sure they do i mean i hope so i'd have to check but i certainly would not put up with it Probably

00:30:22.000 not, but the Vatican is also an absolute monarchy.

00:30:25.000 I don't want to live in an absolute monarchy.

00:30:26.000 monarchy yeah but they have some symbols yeah but the vatican is like a the vatican is like with all due respect the vatican is a fake country it's like a nominal country to like preserve like the catholic church as an institution in you know and it acknowledges because they used to have a larger state i don't need to get into all the more provocative the more provocative thing that what Jack is arguing for is the same sort of speech codes of blasphemy protections that Saudi Arabia has for the Prophet Muhammad.

00:30:57.000 And that, I mean, that, like, am I wrong by saying that?

00:31:00.000 And that's not even a criticism.

00:31:02.000 I think that's what people, I think if you look at the map of, like, yeah, it's true.

00:31:05.000 Most countries ban desecrations of their flags.

00:31:09.000 America isn't most countries.

00:31:10.000 Historically, America has been way better than most other countries, especially on speech.

00:31:15.000 I think I was always very proud of the fact.

00:31:18.000 I would have this thought, you know, when I was in high school and college that like I think it's good that in America we kind of consider it almost unthinkable that we would have 30 arrests per day to have like the police show up because like, oh, you said a thing on Facebook that wasn't very nice and it was incitement.

00:31:35.000 We're going to you're conflating to you.

00:31:37.000 And I think, frankly, the flag part folds directly into this this general norm that in America, like.

00:31:52.000 And the more ways you, the more excuses you give the government that they can use to justify suppressing it, the more ways they have to put their thumb on the scale, which is why I brought up the part about incitement.

00:32:04.000 Yeah.

00:32:04.000 No, finish your thought on incitement.

00:32:06.000 So it's like, again, it's like when you get when you allow the government to have more ways that they can justify cutting down on speech, such as that it's incitement of violence, you're giving more ways that you can curtail what Americans are allowed to think.

00:32:22.000 And that's kind of I think what they already do with like, for example, you know, you can't burn the gay flag.

00:32:27.000 They're like, well, it's really it's an it's inciting hate against this community.

00:32:31.000 So it's not really speech.

00:32:33.000 It's inciting hate.

00:32:34.000 That's totally different.

00:32:36.000 and I think we have to reject that point of view.

00:32:39.000 We have to say, so what counts as violence?

00:32:40.000 So what counts as violence?

00:32:41.000 So what counts as violence?

00:32:43.000 So is pornography speech?

00:32:45.000 Well, I think we have a much more robust tradition of being able to separate like just obscene behavior from expression like burning a flag is pretty clearly a political tradition yet this is a great story that this is a great that porn is speech well so for example freedom of speech doesn't protect you from fraud like you can't defraud somebody and say that it's freedom of speech our freedom of speech protections have always been the most maximalist the most intense on things that are direct political expression because that's clearly

00:33:15.000 what this is derived from.

00:33:17.000 That's clearly what the First Amendment is going for with also the freedom of expression, freedom of assembly, freedom of petition.

00:33:22.000 These are all political rights.

00:33:24.000 And so, yeah, burning a flag is a political act.

00:33:28.000 And whereas like pornography, that's like a commercial act for the most part.

00:33:34.000 And we have a pretty robust ability of separating those two things.

00:33:38.000 And I think you have other ways of prosecuting it, too.

00:33:41.000 Like paying somebody to have sex with you is probably a prostitution violation.

00:33:45.000 And I don't know why we don't prosecute it that way if you happen to put it on camera.

00:33:49.000 But to like relate that to a very...

00:33:53.000 very directly political act like burning the flag, I don't think the equivalence holds.

00:33:57.000 Yeah, but treason, like a turncoat against your country, that's why we actually define treason in the Constitution.

00:34:08.000 Isn't it a treasonist act, though, to burn the American flag?

00:34:12.000 I don't think so.

00:34:13.000 That's actually why we define the Constitution so strictly in the Constitution, because in England, before, you know, in the English Revolution, which preceded our own, we saw this where they were charging people with treason for things like that, where they're like, oh, well, we think you're undermining the state, so that's treason.

00:34:30.000 And so that's why the Constitution says it shall only consist of levying war against the United States or adhering to its enemies, giving them aid and comfort, which adhering to the enemyemies.

00:34:41.000 Obviously that's more loose, but I think it's designed to capture like literally deserting to another country.

00:34:46.000 So providing them with intelligence, providing them material support in a conflict.

00:34:51.000 And you need to have witnesses to it.

00:34:53.000 I guess that's why I brought up the burning of the US Constitution.

00:34:56.000 So there's this, there's a clear difference between, you know, burning the effigy of a tyrant versus burning the US Constitution or something that represents the US Constitution and wanting to move more towards tyranny.

00:35:12.000 I mean, most of the people, I mean, wouldn't you agree that are engaging in the anti American rhetoric are more along the communist, marxist line of thinking that are actually moving us away from what the constitution represents.

00:35:28.000 I guess that's where I have the biggest problem.

00:35:30.000 100%.

00:35:31.000 This is total.

00:35:32.000 We're so far beyond the American. 0.93

00:35:34.000 The founders are taking it here.

00:35:35.000 We're so far beyond what the founding fathers would have recognized.

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00:36:37.000 Let me try to synthesize.

00:36:38.000 So both sides are making great points.

00:36:40.000 This is why it's hard.

00:36:41.000 If Blake is completely right, then that can easily be extrapolated to drag queen story hour and to obscene stuff because the court will say, hey, you know, you can burn a flag.

00:36:54.000 You can have, hey, public, like publicly nude beaches because it's freedom of expression.

00:36:59.000 Like one of his expressions.

00:37:01.000 And Blake, I know that's not what you mean, but that is what the courts will do.

00:37:05.000 Simultaneously though.

00:37:07.000 Jack has to reckon with and reconcile that such restrictions on burning a flag of American flag will 100% be used to say that we cannot also burn an LGBT flag or even worse, like it's going to restrict freedom of expression in general.

00:37:24.000 Unfortunately, the courts which we already have no nuance on this.

00:37:28.000 Well, hold on.

00:37:28.000 So what we want is we, but I guess the question is, Jack, if you had to choose, if you had to choose, this is why Jack's argument is at his weakest, and I want him to respond.

00:37:39.000 If you had to choose one where we had a UK style form of speech code where people are going to knock on your door and get restricted or if you had to choose kind of the libertarian thing where like, hey, burn what you want, do what you want which one would be better for our side i mean it's it's a total false binary that you're setting up there we don't live in the uk it's it's not so jack it's not the problem is it's you're choosing it's a complete false binary this is a 1999 jack you are putting forward a

00:38:09.000 lea jack let me finish my thought you're putting forward a legal theory that nobody agrees with in the entire federal bench there's only really two ways free speech absolutism or speech restrictionism on like European style.

00:38:27.000 So you have to choose kind of which navigational path to go on.

00:38:32.000 And honestly, I don't like when people burn the flag.

00:38:35.000 It'd be good politics to ban it.

00:38:38.000 But I just kind of cringe because the last couple of years, we've been yelling about free speech under Biden and during COVID.

00:38:46.000 I don't want to go towards any sort of restrictions of it, even though I could agree that burning a flag is not speech.

00:38:49.000 So you're cool with pornography being speech.

00:38:53.000 So you're totally cool with pornography being speech.

00:38:56.000 But your point is right.

00:38:57.000 You love free pornography all over the place being protected by the First Amendment.

00:39:01.000 Again, you think that's what our founders wanted, Charlie?

00:39:03.000 Again, no, I'm not.

00:39:04.000 Because that's the side you're on.

00:39:06.000 And that is a misrepresentation.

00:39:06.000 I'm saying that's 100% the side you're on.

00:39:08.000 That's free speech absolutism.

00:39:10.000 Like you just said.

00:39:10.000 If you had to choose, if you, again, you keep interrupting me.

00:39:14.000 I'll just kind of let you guys chat because that's not a discussion.

00:39:16.000 So if you had to choose, I would much rather lean on the side of disgusting things being allowed to say, be said, rather than having a government be able to restrict what we as conservatives want to say.

00:39:29.000 I don't like either of the options.

00:39:30.000 I mean, libertarian, much better.

00:39:31.000 I'd rather be able to speak.

00:39:33.000 I actually agree with you, but we have to deal with reality, not just a theoretical, esoteric project.

00:39:38.000 There's the two choices in front of us, which is libertarian free speech approach, which is the ACLU agenda, or we can go the way of just pure European totalitarianism.

00:39:49.000 I mean, it's just ridiculous. 0.93

00:39:52.000 Like, that's a ridiculous choice. 0.99

00:39:54.000 Nobody's saying that. 0.98

00:39:55.000 We're talking about making a protection.

00:39:56.000 I'm wrong.

00:39:57.000 No, no.

00:39:57.000 Going back to the original protection.

00:39:59.000 Would you have said that to the pro-lifers, Charlie, when they fought for 50 years to get rid of Roe v.

00:40:04.000 Wade? 0.90

00:40:07.000 Again, hey guys, well, this is in the constitution now, and nobody agrees with you, so just shut up and take it. 0.91

00:40:13.000 I never.

00:40:14.000 Jack, you're completely misrepresenting my point.

00:40:16.000 I never said any of that.

00:40:16.000 I'm saying the reality of the federal bench.

00:40:19.000 Would you have said that in 1973?

00:40:21.000 No.

00:40:22.000 I didn't say that in 2003.

00:40:24.000 I said the opposite.

00:40:25.000 I said we want to keep marching.

00:40:26.000 towards, by the way, I think eliminating abortion is infinitely more important than eliminating flag burning. 0.93

00:40:33.000 Okay, like infinitely more important, by the way.

00:40:35.000 One is made an image of God, one is not.

00:40:37.000 Right.

00:40:37.000 But my point is that it's not in the constitution.

00:40:41.000 And obviously it's important to get rid of.

00:40:43.000 I have one more point.

00:40:43.000 I like, Hold on.

00:40:44.000 No, the right to life is 100% in the constitution.

00:40:47.000 That's not correct.

00:40:48.000 So, and by the way, I'm saying abortion is not in the constitution.

00:40:51.000 No, I agree.

00:40:52.000 No, I totally understand that.

00:40:55.000 I'm not even arguing on the merits.

00:40:56.000 I'm arguing on the current legal regime.

00:40:59.000 leans either the European direction or the Blake Neff libertarian free speech direction.

00:41:06.000 And you have to choose which side you kind of want your volitional energy to go towards and we can hope and wish and pray that a prudential bench of classical, you know, Western canonized, you know, nationalists don't rise up in the legal community.

00:41:21.000 But it's Charlie's saying that you would go ahead.

00:41:26.000 I mean, Blake can chime in.

00:41:28.000 Well, I was just going to say, I think, I think in those terms, I think, I think all of us would agree the, the Blake Neff free speech method.

00:41:38.000 That's what's better than the totalitarian.

00:41:40.000 And that is the choice in front of us.

00:41:42.000 So that's the, that's the obvious answer.

00:41:46.000 I think the idea is that if there's one thing that we can carve out and if there's something that we can be politically ambitious on, it's look, protect the culture and the concept of America, especially in this time period that we're in this very unique time period right now with Trump,

00:42:07.000 where it's like, well, hey, we may be able to maximize, especially with the young men that are out there that are feeling really weird about all the side conversations and side quests that the left has gone down on attacking America.

00:42:24.000 This might be the time to kind of take our own Roe v Wade.

00:42:28.000 And again, I don't want to put it in those terms because I know that probably Jack won't really appreciate that, but this might be an opportunity for us to take some ground and let the left fight over that for the next thirty years at this time.

00:42:43.000 Like, I don't know.

00:42:44.000 I just, I just think that that might be a smart move, but politically, you can't be afraid of a fight because a fight is hard.

00:42:50.000 But, but that being said, public opinion, this is an eighty twenty issue.

00:42:54.000 It's an obvious eighty twenty issue supporting the American flag.

00:42:58.000 Again, and fighting for the American flag will increase support.

00:43:02.000 support fighting for the American flag as our freedom.

00:43:05.000 This is a symbol from which all of our freedoms flow.

00:43:09.000 It is the symbol of our nation.

00:43:10.000 It is a symbol that people carry into battle.

00:43:13.000 That is why American soldiers, when they go into, that's why the flag on the uniform is printed backwards if you look at a uniform because it is meant to represent the flag being carried into battle.

00:43:26.000 And that's why as a symbol of our nation, yes, it should be sacrosanct.

00:43:30.000 And there's no question about this.

00:43:32.000 And I don't think that it's going to create this situation where all of a sudden we're the UK.

00:43:36.000 This is one thing.

00:43:38.000 It is a specific thing and we're carving it out and saying, no, you can't burn the American flag.

00:43:43.000 It's as simple as that.

00:43:43.000 It is the smart move politically and it is the smart move nationally.

00:43:47.000 Well, there's a lot of constitutional rights that don't pull with majority support or even close to it.

00:43:52.000 I would say I want to I want to close on kind of an important thought because we had this back and forth on whether expression counts as part of the First Amendment.

00:44:01.000 And all I would say is if freedom of expression is not a right that you have, then the government can compel expression.

00:44:10.000 what if the government wants to make you salute the gay flag?

00:44:15.000 That's not speech.

00:44:17.000 The government, wait, I'm sorry, if freedom of expression isn't protected, the government can force me to salute something?

00:44:23.000 Yeah.

00:44:24.000 You don't have freedom of expression.

00:44:26.000 Part of freedom of speech is the right to not say something.

00:44:29.000 It is the right to not be made to express a point of view you do not hold.

00:44:33.000 That is also part of freedom of expression.

00:44:35.000 It is the right to not be compelled in speech, to be compelled in expression.

00:44:40.000 So if you don't have that right, the government can compel it.

00:44:44.000 Okay, Blake.

00:44:45.000 Well, when we're in a situation now when we don't have Marxists shooting up Catholic schools and Marxists marching on Washington burning flags, and we've just spent a couple of years dealing with all this in the streets, then maybe, maybe I'll be worried about someone trying to pass a law that says I have to support the pride flag.

00:45:04.000 But here in reality, that is the culture war that we're in.

00:45:08.000 That is the culture war that we have a actual fighting chance of winning right now.

00:45:12.000 I'm not as much libertarian like you.

00:45:15.000 You are.

00:45:16.000 And like the truth is, the government, if it can ban burning the flag because freedom of expression is not real, well, they could ban you posting a meme that they don't like because the meme's not speech.

00:45:26.000 Meme is an image.

00:45:27.000 It's different.

00:45:28.000 They could ban the Gadsden flag.

00:45:29.000 They could ban doing that distress flag that they were mad that Alita was waving outside her house.

00:45:35.000 They can do a lot of things.

00:45:36.000 It wouldn't work at all.

00:45:37.000 Of course it would work.

00:45:38.000 They've done these things.

00:45:38.000 And just going back on Charlie's practicality, the government's already done these things.

00:45:43.000 Right now, it is our freedom of expression that has abused.

00:45:46.000 These things you're mentioning are even any of the ability to prosecute those things.

00:45:50.000 There are a lot of cases where the government has attempted to criminalize behavior as disruptive.

00:45:55.000 And we've been bailed out by our variation where someone went to jail for posting a meme, Blake.

00:46:01.000 Please try to live in reality.

00:46:03.000 Please.

00:46:04.000 Yeah, they tried to put a guy in jail for posting a meme.

00:46:07.000 And guess what?

00:46:08.000 Yes.

00:46:09.000 He didn't go to jail for it.

00:46:10.000 That's because our freedom of speech discourse is good.

00:46:12.000 Liberal judges ruled in our favor on that.

00:46:15.000 That's a good thing.

00:46:16.000 Literally.

00:46:16.000 Like literally, if the Biden were to say that they would still be pushing to lock up Doug Mackie, they would.

00:46:22.000 They want to put Doug Mackie in the situation.

00:46:24.000 The constitution is right now.

00:46:26.000 Our constitutional norms, including a freedom of speech, are free.

00:46:28.000 The idea that you have to collect us from the overreach of people who hate freedom.

00:46:34.000 Preserving freedom is how you preserve freedom.

00:46:36.000 You can't have nice things.

00:46:37.000 You can't have nice things like that when the situation is what it is regarding the American flag.

00:46:43.000 So this is the political jiu-jitsu though, Blake, is if you actually make flag burning illegal, then the left starts fighting on behalf of free speech, which is what you want.

00:46:54.000 Well, no, I would say the best part about this is just that it'll probably provoke the left to burn flags and that's good because burning the flag is unpopular.

00:47:03.000 Except for you.

00:47:04.000 So it's a win.

00:47:05.000 I still think it should be legal.

00:47:06.000 the flag is gross.

00:47:07.000 So then the left will fight for free speech, which is what you want.

00:47:11.000 I think there's some really good takeaways, though, which is that we should fight for this politically very carefully and prudently, though.

00:47:18.000 I don't...

00:47:19.000 I think you should be able to burn the Quran. 1.00

00:47:22.000 I think you should be able to desecrate other people's religious symbols. 0.93

00:47:25.000 However, if you want to pick a fight for national unity on a singular flag object, great.

00:47:31.000 But I think we got to also take a page off of Blake's book that, hey, like it's good that we're able to just speak openly on the show right now, guys, called Thought Crime.

00:47:40.000 And we don't have to worry about, you know, being arrested for hate speech by some sort of government agency.

00:47:46.000 I think that's good.

00:47:47.000 And Jack says it's a false choice, but it is a, you start going on that road of speech protections.

00:47:54.000 And so I think both can simultaneously be true.

00:47:58.000 And yes, it is the greatest kind of.

00:48:00.000 left-wing bait ever because now they're going to start burning flags being like, we can totally do this.

00:48:07.000 And so Jack, do you want to, you want to finish your thought because we keep talking over you.

00:48:13.000 Yeah, no, I mean, like what I'm saying is though that I do actually think that, so yes, there's a practicality part of it.

00:48:21.000 And yes, I think politically, obviously it makes a lot of sense to fight for this.

00:48:24.000 That's why the president did this this week.

00:48:26.000 There's no question.

00:48:27.000 So certainly, you know, stand with the president on that.

00:48:30.000 But this has always been something that I'm for, even, you know.

00:48:33.000 far before President Trump became involved politically.

00:48:37.000 And it's something where I believe the way the Constitution is written as current, right, as it currently stands, is that it makes sense for this to be a state's rights issue.

00:48:50.000 So when, which is what I was saying when I was talking about the religious symbols as well.

00:48:55.000 So we do have that as the, you know, you know, as freedom of religion.

00:48:59.000 But when it comes to things like desecration of the flag, whether that counts, this is what why we have federalism.

00:49:06.000 This is why we have states.

00:49:08.000 This is why we have the Tenth Amendment. 0.77

00:49:10.000 This is why we have the states as the laboratories of democracy, right?

00:49:14.000 The small d that we used to be able to say.

00:49:16.000 This is why the system was set up the way that it was.

00:49:19.000 And in that system, we had 48 states with, which banned flag desecration.

00:49:24.000 This is the ideology of the founders.

00:49:27.000 This is the ideology of the people who built the United states and got us to the point that we're in.

00:49:32.000 It is not some false, you know, right that was just created in 1989.

00:49:37.000 So I'm really just arguing for the traditional view of the American system.

00:49:42.000 Yeah.

00:49:43.000 I mean, the states thing kind of feels like a cop out.

00:49:46.000 I mean, I'd honestly like.

00:49:47.000 prefer just get a federal.

00:49:49.000 I mean, it's just.

00:49:51.000 No, I know, but if it's bad, just ban it.

00:49:52.000 I mean, that's kind of, that's my view, which is especially we're not talking about like not burning the North Carolina flag or not burning the Arizona flag.

00:49:59.000 It is the American flag.

00:50:01.000 So I think, again, I just, the states thing, I'm just kind of getting tired of this whole states thing because it just kind of feels like a little bit of a, a little bit of a cop out more broadly in the moment but it is just great no fine if you guys have private student loan debt this is the best way out they are phenomenal supporters of our student action summit america fest our campus tours many clients are not able to make the minimum monthly payment on their private student loans when they first contact yrefi if you go to yrefi.com you can read

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00:51:12.000 That is yrefi.com.

00:51:17.000 Blake, do you have other thoughts on this?

00:51:18.000 We really don't have much time to cover much else, but this is great.

00:51:21.000 Yeah.

00:51:21.000 I mean, I think I basically said my piece on this.

00:51:24.000 I just think a great thing in America that has not, you know, we sometimes talk about like, okay, it wasn't always the case, but we've had that on other things, like we had it with Jim Crow.

00:51:34.000 Like we've been able to acknowledge that America's constitutional rights have been imperfectly applied at times, that they were not extended to everyone that they actually belong to.

00:51:44.000 And I think we can easily say that's the case.

00:51:46.000 with freedom of speech that before the civil war in the south you didn't have real freedom of speech you didn't actually have the full freedom to uh criticize slavery they would literally go and they would smash your press up and it has taken time for it took time for us to reach the full flowering of American freedom of speech.

00:52:05.000 I think it basically took until about World War II for it to happen.

00:52:09.000 But I think that was a great example of America at its absolute peak.

00:52:13.000 We were at the absolute peak of freedom of expression.

00:52:16.000 And just at that time, we start seeing censorship tendrils start to spread in the rest of the world.

00:52:23.000 We start seeing, you know, you can say we'll never be like England, but England didn't think it would ever be like England.

00:52:28.000 That's where we got freedom of speech from.

00:52:30.000 They were the freest country in the world in terms of speech for a very long time.

00:52:35.000 And they allowed themselves to move in a different direction where now they have blasphemy laws.

00:52:40.000 Now they have these very loose incitement laws where you can't say certain things.

00:52:45.000 Now you can get in trouble in England for like waving the flag of England because they will consider it incitement.

00:52:52.000 And again, if expression is not included within what the First Amendment protects, then you can criminalize forms of expression, not just burning a flag, but also waving a certain flag.

00:53:04.000 And if that's going to happen, if that's going to be an option on the table, the left will do it.

00:53:09.000 I don't want the left to be able to do it.

00:53:12.000 Well, not to open a whole new can of worms, but, you know, this kind of got opened up.

00:53:17.000 I totally support states throwing people in jail for burning the state flag and protecting state sovereignty against the federal, against the federal government.

00:53:25.000 And I think this actually is connected because the federal government coming in and saying that, oh, it's protected speech to burn a state flag when a state itself should be protecting its people against the federal government is a whole other conversation that is really important for America to have because I think states should be able to protect their brand, their culture, everything else against the federal government.

00:53:50.000 Maybe they'll really start to silence.

00:53:53.000 But we have social technology matters.

00:53:55.000 It's like monogamy is a social social technology and all these things.

00:54:00.000 And we're basically when we say, let's throw this away and bring back flag burning laws, we're saying, let us get rid, let us diminuate, let us curtail the piece of social technology we have in America that makes it so that we are not like China, not like the UK, not like continental Europe, not like Saudi Arabia.

00:54:19.000 I don't want to do that.

00:54:20.000 So unfortunately, the problem is, I would just say the problem is, is that in reality, when We have too many people here from different countries.

00:54:36.000 We have too many people who believe in different isms, transgenderism is their identity. 1.00

00:54:41.000 So the biggest problem in America today is because we have not only these many nations of ethnic enclaves, but many nations of of identity. 0.97

00:54:51.000 And so if you hold up one thing and say, this is the thing that we should all rally behind, the red, white, and blue.

00:54:58.000 And it doesn't matter what race, what creed, what color you are.

00:55:02.000 This is the one thing that is protected that we will rally behind, that if we don't, that we will continue to fight each other and this country will just be torn apart.

00:55:12.000 It will just be absolutely torn apart.

00:55:15.000 And I think that's the main reason that President Trump is doing this now, to give us a symbol that we can all rally behind.

00:55:22.000 We have to go guys.

00:55:23.000 Tyler, really quick, your thought on Taylor Swift submitting to Travis Kelsey and changing her name.

00:55:29.000 I hope Travis Kelsey has Kelsey has the worst season ever and everyone blames Taylor Swift and everyone gets the great picture, the grand picture.

00:55:38.000 I hope he's the worst, I hope he's the worst drafted fantasy football player in the history of fantasy football players and he has the worst year ever.

00:55:48.000 They blame her.

00:55:49.000 That's what I hope.

00:55:50.000 I hope they have a wonderful marriage.

00:55:52.000 I hope Travis Kelsey is the MVP of the league.

00:55:55.000 They win a Super Bowl and that they have a Super Bowl baby.

00:55:59.000 I hope that.

00:56:00.000 That they have lots of children.

00:56:02.000 It will make them happier.

00:56:04.000 I have learned that anything I say about Taylor Swift is the easiest way for me to get publicity.

00:56:10.000 It's amazing.

00:56:11.000 I don't even try, by the way.

00:56:13.000 It's like international news.

00:56:14.000 People are texting me from high school and I haven't heard from these people in years.

00:56:19.000 It is really something.

00:56:20.000 All I said is that Taylor Swift should submit to her husband, which is abundantly biblical.

00:56:27.000 She never will.

00:56:28.000 Taylor Swift is the Hillary Clinton of our generation.

00:56:31.000 Okay.

00:56:31.000 Listen.

00:56:36.000 There's so many parallels.

00:56:38.000 What's your favorite story?

00:56:39.000 Travis Kelsey and Bill Clinton.

00:56:43.000 I have, listen, all I know is this, that Hillary Clinton was smart enough to take advantage of a man for her own, you know, uh, betterment.

00:56:55.000 And this is exactly what Taylor Swift has done in this relationship with Travis Kelsey.

00:56:59.000 It's not even if it lasts like Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton's marriage has lasted, it hasn't been good for America and neither will Taylor Swift and Travis Kelsey.

00:57:08.000 I will stand by that.

00:57:09.000 I don't care how many nasty tweets I'm going to get after this.

00:57:13.000 Yeah, no, the reason that you see the memes of Travis Kelsey being pregnant and Taylor Swift like, you know, wearing the, actually, I haven't seen this meme yet.

00:57:24.000 We should make one of Taylor Swift wearing the tuxedo and Travis Kelsey wearing the dress, even though I'm not sharing them myself because, you know, this, this like.

00:57:34.000 just psyop continues.

00:57:37.000 So when you see this video they're showing right here, when you see Taylor Swift put the claw on Travis Kelsey's face, the way she has, it's a domination move.

00:57:47.000 Newsweek wrote me up for saying this last year.

00:57:49.000 And she produces these domination moves and domination gestures over and over and over. 1.00

00:57:55.000 This is also similar to the Green Line test that Alpha Rivalino uses.

00:58:00.000 And she's constantly doing this to him, whereas he's leaning into her.

00:58:04.000 She's leaning away from him.

00:58:06.000 And this shows, and it's something that we can all subliminally or just subconsciously understand, that she has the dominant power in that relationship and he is the submissive.

00:58:17.000 this is the anti-biblical status where basically Taylor Swift acts like a man and Travis Kelsey acts like a woman and that's why the those memes get traction, because we can tell that he is a submissive man to the dominant girl boss feminist icon that he is now getting married to.

00:58:38.000 Poor guy.

00:58:38.000 I hope they end up very happy.

00:58:40.000 Email us freedom at charliekirk.com and subscribe to our podcast.

00:58:44.000 Thank you guys for listening to Thought Crime.

00:58:46.000 Also check out Human Events Daily every single day.

00:58:48.000 God bless you guys.

00:58:49.000 Have a wonderful Labor Day weekend and talk to you soon.

00:58:51.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:58:52.000 Email us as always, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:58:55.000 Thanks so much for listening and God bless.

The Charlie Kirk Show - August 30, 2025

THOUGHTCRIME Ep. 96 — The Great Flag Burning Debate

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