00:00:09.000Today, we are joined by Pastor Jack Hibbs and Pastor Rob McCoy, two amazing pastors that love our country, love the kingdom of God, and are honestly under huge attack right now and persecution.
00:00:21.000You can email me, freedom at charliekirk.com, all your questions.
00:00:25.000Thank you for supporting our program to be advertiser-free on the weekend at charliekirk.com slash support.
00:00:30.000But just as I am doing this podcast, both of these pastors are being threatened with arrest and their entire church being shutting down because they are staying wide open.
00:00:38.000Email us, freedom at charliekirk.com, freedom at charliekirk.com.
00:01:07.000We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.
00:02:08.000Well, I would say, especially, Jack, you probably are in the same boat that when we were closed, we didn't know the severity of COVID-19 at the time.
00:02:16.000We were still processing the data, at least for us.
00:02:18.000And as soon as we saw that this was a scamdemic, we opened.
00:02:23.000And the non-essential designation by our governor, that was it.
00:02:26.000I mean, you make cannabis essential and you make bicycle repair shops and liquor stores essential and then violate our First Amendment.
00:02:49.000Listen, it's the amount of conversions, people coming for comfort, people walking in the front door starting to cry because they said it was precious.
00:04:45.000We ask people to stay home if they're sick.
00:04:48.000If we say, if you're sick, don't come.
00:04:50.000But we've given every opportunity, Charlie, you know, you've walked around the campus for people to experience church in all kinds of ways.
00:05:39.000And what I find so, in my own opinion, frustrating and repulsive on how some of these pastors have handled this, Rob, is these pastors are treating their congregants like infants.
00:05:53.000And saying, we know what's best for you.
00:05:55.000We are going to shut it all down because you don't know how to make informed choices.
00:05:59.000What's been your experience with staying open?
00:06:02.000I think with the pastors that are closed, and I'm going to take the direction that Jack has because love hopes all things.
00:06:11.000And I would think, especially for some of these pastors, whatever information they're getting that's causing them to make the decision they're making is not correct.
00:06:22.000When we've had doctors on our live stream, we've had psychologists on our live stream, when we've looked at the data.
00:06:27.000And what's interesting is anything that's contrary to the narrative set by the governor is immediately censored.
00:06:33.000And they say, you know, all medical professionals are in agreement.
00:06:36.000Well, those are the medical professionals that you allow on social media.
00:06:42.000And then you censor the ones that have a contract.
00:06:44.000But you look at the data, and this thing has a 99% survival rate with anyone who has contracted it.
00:06:50.000And just because that we know of, and it's actually higher, but just because cases are going up, hospitalizations and deaths are going down.
00:07:24.000Charlie and I talked earlier just in our conversations of life beforehand and things where it makes people feel comfortable to say, politicians to say, this is essential.
00:08:48.000And let's not forget this: the beauty of America, 244 years under this Constitution, the authority in America is found in the first three words of the preamble, we the people.
00:09:24.000But even those pastors that are doing that are now standing.
00:09:27.000Well, in order to be philosophically consistent, they should go to Rome because the people from the northern part of England should never have pushed back against Roman aggression.
00:09:37.000But here's when, in an age in which we're in right now, okay, we're all Bible students.
00:09:47.000When would be, what would be the event that causes a pastor to throw off the yoke of political encroachment and say, now that's the hill I'm going to stand on?
00:09:57.000So if you can't stand for this little bump in the road, Charlie?
00:10:02.000No, Jack, I was just going to say that's the best point because every pastor should have to answer, what is your line then?
00:10:08.000So, I mean, if it's not now, then give us a set of circumstances.
00:11:30.000The reason why we don't, and you don't, because I've had that conversation with you, the reason why we don't hold to that view is because we're a pluralistic society.
00:11:38.000And in this nation of a constitutional republic, especially with Galatians 3, it says that the law is a guardian to point us to Christ and keep us safe until faith comes.
00:11:51.000In the meantime, We build these laws, these civil laws, to protect mankind because it's the laws of nature, nature's God.
00:11:58.000But there isn't this one theocracy where we have, people have to come to this realization, this choice.
00:12:37.000No, because there are events in culture like America, like the founding of the United States, or for that matter, the holding back of God's judgment promised against Nineveh.
00:12:49.000Why didn't God just smack them down like he said through Jonah?
00:13:00.000What we do is we are taking the word of God, looking for Jesus any day, but until he comes, we're going to occupy till he comes, says the Bible.
00:13:12.000We don't create it and then make it where it's a happy world for him to arrive.
00:13:16.000And faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God.
00:13:18.000So our primary calling, people think that we're all about politics, but for Jack and I, our primary calling is rightly dividing the word of truth.
00:13:25.000I said that in the car to you earlier.
00:13:32.000If we, listen, if we pastors do not understand the workings and the politics of the nation that he has placed us in, then we are ripe to lose the freedoms to preach the gospel.
00:14:06.000But to think that you're somehow contributing to the end of that prejudice and that racism by a black tile or sending money into Black Lives Matter, zeal without knowledge is foolishness.
00:14:16.000You need to study to realize Black Lives Matter is a Marxist organization.
00:14:20.000It's Black Lives Matter Incorporated in the world.
00:14:22.000We call it BLM because we never want to say something negative about a statement that is obsessively weak.
00:14:37.000And as a matter of fact, you take the Black American population at 13%, divide that in half, male and female, 6.5%, take it down to childbearing years for black females.
00:15:03.000And the pastors that are putting up those black tiles, thinking that they're usaging their guilt, they need to stand in opposition to abortion.
00:15:12.000Rob, I said something to the same effect a couple of weeks ago.
00:15:16.000I went out into the courtyard to greet people after service, and there was a beeline of black individuals coming to me, hugging me, kissing me, no social distancing at all to say to me, thank you for what you said today about BLM Incorporated, because they have pimped, listen, they have pimped my ethnicity and they are destroying my culture.
00:15:44.000To be honest with you, I have zero respect for a white guy telling me about BLM Incorporated or true Black Lives Matter, but they're not talking about the real truth about Black Lives Matter.
00:16:00.000They want to talk about BLM Incorporated, and they're completely not qualified to talk about it.
00:16:05.000And that's where we as pastors, we can have zeal, but without knowledge, it's foolishness.
00:16:10.000We've got to study to know these things.
00:16:12.000And the scripture says, whatever things are true, I'm just about the gospel.
00:16:21.000I could argue, Rob, that just preaching the gospel is not enough because you need to endorse your people after you have preached the gospel to now go do the gospel.
00:16:35.000It's not good to be a student and a hearer only.
00:16:38.000I think the Bible has something to say about that.
00:17:56.000Moses goes up on Mount Sinai, gets a downloaded moral app, five commandments relationship to God, five commandments relationship with each other, comes down.
00:18:03.000The entire community is in debauchery.
00:18:06.000He puts the moral law in the center of the community.
00:18:09.000And for 40 years, they live without a police force or a standing army.
00:18:53.000It's the first step to the discipleship process, which is the rest of your life.
00:18:58.000You're saved in an instant, but the rest of your life, you walk with Jesus.
00:19:01.000And let me tell you what ends up happening.
00:19:03.000I grew up in suburbs of Chicago, went to some of the largest churches on the planet, went to a Christian school fourth, fifth, and sixth grade, then went to a public school.
00:19:12.000And so I'm very familiar with cattle call Christianity is what I kind of call it, where they do the cattle call, every couple of weeks come forward, all this.
00:19:20.000What ends up happening, and I've tracked these people throughout the years, some of them I know that went and did that, is that there is a questioning process that happens and sets in about four to six weeks after the cattle call conversion, right?
00:19:32.000So they come, they do the thing on Easter or Christmas or whenever they do the big deal, they all of a sudden start listening to K-Love.
00:19:40.000They tell all their friends about it, right?
00:19:41.000They start wearing Christian t-shirts.
00:19:43.000And then something happens, a friend interaction, something less than desirable, suffering comes across, or inevitably, a societal question comes across their radar, which is the one that is probably.
00:20:49.000Because all of a sudden, the tough things of which church and the Bible are supposed to be able to answer, they have no interest in engaging in that.
00:21:00.000So Galatians 3 is a truth, but the inverse is also true.
00:21:03.000Where it's at law is a school teacher to Christ, but the lack of any sort of interpretation of things that make sense in a very chaotic world, people will disengage from Christ.
00:21:11.000So it's also, I think, it can retract you away from Christ.
00:21:14.000Not only do I believe what you just said is true, but Rob, we've got Peter telling us that we should be able to give an answer to every man.
00:21:35.000If the Bible says that we should be able to give an answer to every man who asks us, if we believe that this doctrine of predestination is based upon God's foreknowledge, then God can't learn anything.
00:21:49.000Nothing's going to happen without his knowledge.
00:21:53.000Having said that, I believe from scripture that what you just said is so true.
00:21:59.000We're the ones that are to give the answers to people.
00:22:03.000If we don't know the answer, we should find it because God's provided the answer.
00:22:08.000I believe in some way that this is kind of rigged.
00:22:13.000I don't mean in the sense of a negative way.
00:22:16.000But if somebody calls and asks a question and I don't know the answer, bad on me, because the Bible has the answer.
00:22:34.000The one piece of life that could be very turbulent, very uncomfortable, very heated, very emotive, sometimes pathological is politics and governance.
00:22:42.000It's understandable because everyone thinks they're right and everyone thinks that they want to go to the right direction.
00:22:48.000And so the church has disengaged because they're like, well, that's too controversial.
00:22:53.000It never made sense to me because I went to some of these mega churches growing up and they would have this fire and brimstone speech about how hell's a real place and people are screaming and dying.
00:23:02.000That's really intense, but you won't talk about it.
00:23:41.000The point is that when people do not have clarity on something that affects them materially, sociologically, psychologically, and philosophically, and we are told that's a no-go zone, they're like, wait a second, but I don't get it.
00:23:54.000There's all these yard signs in my neighborhood.
00:23:56.000You're trying to tell me the church doesn't have anything to say about this?
00:23:59.000Like, you're trying to tell me that I'm supposed to have no clarity when it comes to why my property tax bill keeps on going up every single year, so I have to sacrifice my tithe.
00:24:07.000My daughter has to shower with a man, and you're trying to tell me that the church has no clarity on you?
00:24:13.000Didn't Paul tell Rob McCoy that the pillar in the ground of all truth is found where?
00:25:18.000And my father had had three tours of Vietnam.
00:25:20.000I remember him coming through Lindbergh Field getting spit on.
00:25:22.000I remember being at the Washington Monument as they're throwing stuff at us with all the hippie movement.
00:25:27.000And Chuck comes out in 68 and he sees all these disenfranchised young people as the church is imploding.
00:25:33.000People are checking into Western religions and trying to find themselves with drugs and everything.
00:25:39.000And so in the course of this, Chuck figures, I'm just going to avoid politics.
00:25:44.000I'm just going to teach the Bible verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book, because faith comes from hearing, hearing from the word of God, and his word doesn't return void.
00:28:46.000In politics, which pastors don't understand, but I do because I've run four times and won three races, so I'm batting 750 I can make in the major leagues.
00:28:55.000The currency in politics is one thing: winning elections.
00:29:00.000You don't move the needle without winning an election.
00:29:02.000And if you look at me and say, I can't vote for someone three times married, twice divorced, that's moral pietism.
00:29:09.000And I look at you and I say, fine, but you're irrelevant to me as a politician.
00:29:33.000First words out of his mouth was, find me that woman.
00:29:36.000He's with a Nazarite vow, homeschooled and one of only two, only one of two unborn children prophesied to deliver God's people, Jesus and him.
00:29:45.000We fail to communicate to Christians that we're not voting for a president.
00:29:51.000I think that's a very deceiving way to look at it.
00:29:55.000Instead, because president feels very autocratic, right?
00:30:06.000An ideology, especially now, more so than ever.
00:30:08.000It matters far less about the human being that occupies it and much more about the millions of micro-decisions that go into either stabilizing or deconstructing an entire civilization.
00:30:19.000And so, and I think this is President Trump's pathway to victory, is actually articulating this, is that he is nothing more than a vessel for people-centered government.
00:30:29.000At that, you know, you might not like my tweets, you might not like all this stuff.
00:30:42.000And I'm going to spit and I'm going to say things I shouldn't say, but I am the size of a doorframe and I can fight and they don't want to come after me.
00:30:50.000And I'm going to keep you safe and stable and protect what is righteous and good.
00:30:55.000I think that's a much better way to communicate it because some people say, well, I don't like it.
00:30:59.000Well, first of all, she's like, I, for one, I really, really don't like the moral kind of judging game from Christians.
00:31:08.000And I talked to you about this, and I think it's the worst extrapolation of kind of the parts of Calvinism, to be honest with you.
00:31:15.000We're like, I'm elect and you're not elect, and I'm so much better than you are.
00:32:15.000Look, maybe for some churches, it has been communicated that, yes, in fact, it is that weak.
00:32:21.000If you're a pastor and you got to do a book report once a week, and the only thing you have to do is throw the net out to have people raise their hand, that's a lot easier than having to soil yourself by getting involved in the school board and the city council, even though the scripture says, pray for kings and those in authority that we would live quiet and peaceable lives in all godliness and reverence.
00:32:42.000And you ask those pastors, and that's a pastoral epistle, you ask them, can you name your five school board members and your five city council members that you pray for by name and the issues they're dealing with that allow your community, your followers, to live quiet and peaceful lives in all godliness and reverence.
00:32:56.000They don't know the names, but it's too hard to get involved.
00:33:01.000And it's a lot easier just to collect the tithe and have people raise their hand and then feel good that you've been forgiven of your sins, cast as far as East is from the West to be remembered no more, which is precious.
00:33:12.000But, you know, you were saying these children are being birthed, but not raised.
00:33:18.000And when an evangelist comes into town and you were talking about the ROI, the return on investment, you put on this enormous program, outreach evangelistic program in a stadium, people come forward and you follow up after a year, a very small percentage of them.
00:33:35.000And I've done this on many occasions in our church.
00:33:37.000I say, how many of you came to Christ in a crusade outreach type of event?
00:33:45.000How many of you came to Christ because someone personally shared with you and walked you through it and the enormity of the room that raises their hand?
00:33:52.000That's not to dismiss what folks do that are evangelists.
00:35:10.000And by the way, the people coming forward, I could not engineer this.
00:35:14.000Where in a church, if you could have the perfect world where this, so many of this ethnic group come forward, old and young, and this ethnic group, old and young, and this old and young, and poor and rich.
00:35:54.000He said that those, when it comes to accepting Christ and then walking on with Christ, Jesus said that there will be mother against daughter and father against son because of that very reason.
00:37:00.000And now they're coming going, what do we do?
00:37:02.000And some of the greatest proponents for this movement contending with the governor are these business owners that started coming to the church.
00:37:09.000And they're saying with these open California rallies that they've asked me to come and speak at, they say, will you open in prayer?
00:37:16.000And they ask you to give an entire opening teaching on what liberty is from the scriptures.
00:37:56.000I do believe California is redeemable because I'm still breathing.
00:38:00.000One of the things the church has gotten so incredibly wrong and I think misstepped is I was told that politics will drive people away from the church.
00:38:09.000And what I found with our podcast and through Turning Point and what we're doing is we talk about a moral worldview.
00:38:57.000So there are 15 to 20 million souls that may or may not come to Christ right now in America because the way they were raised and the culture they're in, just the typical evangelistic music, big lights, all that, it doesn't, everyone is made different by God.
00:39:54.000And the enemy wants to keep us in the four walls of the church.
00:39:57.000They don't want us to have an influence in the universities.
00:40:01.000And it's to the point where we just allow them to push and whittle us down until we're just here and we're arguing over an ever-decreasing piece of the pie.
00:41:43.000I mean, it was awful what we went through.
00:41:46.000And I've never felt closer to the Lord, more prayerful, and saw people's lives inspired and moved than when I stepped into the public square.
00:41:56.000Satan was never concerned about me being behind that wooden box as the walls were closing in on me.
00:42:01.000Rob, I got to tell you, the Christians, the real Christians I know in Washington, D.C., and in Sacramento, their story is exactly that story.
00:42:10.000And I got to tell you, there's men and women in D.C. that I know that I admire them so much because I couldn't take that kind of heat.
00:42:18.000They love the Lord and they love this country and they love what's right and they're doing something about it.
00:42:22.000If it costs them their lives, they die every day.
00:42:32.000And the reason why we're losing more and more representation in a constitutional republic is because the lack of proper teaching from the pulpits how to operate in legislation, that you win by increments.
00:42:46.000And because they're single issue and they're not broad understanding of how to move the needle, the minute one of these conservatives votes in a capacity they don't like, not understanding all the dynamics of what they're up against, they immediately eviscerate them.
00:44:28.000Let's pretend that one of his converts, which he had many, and disciples who was in the Soviet government, they go up to him and say, I need you to go to that village and go shoot 10%.
00:45:20.000I think I could back it up biblically.
00:45:21.000That said, when you say, oh, you're defying the government, tell that to the church in Vietnam who meets in secret because they're getting their tongues cut off so that they don't kill them.
00:45:34.000They just cut their tongues off so they can't speak.
00:46:10.000They have the, yeah, they have the liberty to be that for 244 years, men and women have been fighting for that, and they get to hold those views.
00:46:31.000What kind of a government, it's never happened before, where the founders are either a Christian or they know about the Christian life and they come to an agreement where it fits.
00:46:42.000The government that they're going to hand you fits for the most ardent believer and the most ardent atheist.
00:47:13.000But because of the freedom we've been given in this form of government designed with a creator in mind and understanding that man is innately sinful and you have to separate the powers because power wants to concentrate.
00:47:25.000And it pushes it down to the individual to have that relationship with God, complete freedom like they had in the wilderness, Ten Commandments, as simple as possible.
00:48:43.000Big pastor came out against me, even though he liked me once and decided he didn't like me as soon as he got called out for the fact he liked me.
00:49:08.000I think that these churches are poorly staffed and they hire these young, incredibly naive, social media-driven Christians that went to either Wheaton, Calvin, or Taylor, and they know nothing about economics, American history or culture, and they wear their skinny jeans.
00:49:24.000No offense, people that wear skinny jeans.
00:49:33.000Number two, I think that they didn't do what you and Rob did for decades leading up to this moment and at least incorporated American first principles into their teaching throughout the last couple decades.
00:49:45.000So their congregation has been completely unaware of how to interact with any of these things.
00:49:50.000There's a lot to be said for what you just said, because for me personally, I'm not saying for you, is for me, I spent decades in the secular world working for corporations.
00:50:04.000That preparation was fantastic for church ministry life.
00:50:10.000And I learned early on from having a Marine Corps dad, you don't work, son, you don't eat.
00:50:29.000Well, some of these pastors, look, they entertain a very dangerous version of Thomas Moore's utopia, where maybe we can have heaven on earth.
00:51:25.000They decide they do not want to know, and they are ideologues more than they're actually in the pursuit of truth.
00:51:32.000If you are really defending the ideas of Marxist-Leninism, after what we have documented, this is no longer theory, this is no longer some fun craft.
00:51:41.000This is no longer like a coffee shop exercise.
00:51:44.000Now, either you are actually so naive and you should resign as a pastor, then you should, absolutely, because you are not in a position to guide people at all, or you know better and you are doing the you are carrying the water for the enemy.
00:51:56.000Because if you look at where Satan wants, what ideology does Satan actually want to see grow?
00:52:03.000He wants to see a belief in no God, because that is one of the greatest things he can possibly accomplish.
00:52:07.000Nietzsche carried more water for Satan than anyone could have possibly imagined, saying God is dead, right?
00:52:12.000And there's a lot of different ways you can skew past that.
00:52:16.000But secondly, I think that Satan is a huge advocate in almost the evangelistic position of secular nihilistic humanism.
00:53:03.000Look, maybe the economy is going to go that way.
00:53:06.000But the way this whole thing is going, we want to see.
00:53:09.000So here's one of the things you and I are going to talk about in just a moment, which is what we're supposed to do for maturing people or soon-to-be-maturing people is not to remove the dangers from the jungle.
00:53:26.000It's not to remove the jungle at all and then put them in a safe box.
00:53:30.000And what I'm saying right now should be so incredibly self-evident that it doesn't need to be said, but we're at a place where it needs to be said.
00:53:36.000Where someone is 17 and 18, you shouldn't try to create an environment that is easier or even more relaxing or more comfortable for them.
00:53:44.000First of all, that is immoral, unrealistic, dangerous, and it actually is societally suicidal.
00:53:51.000What you should do is try to make that person the strongest possible person you can to be able to encounter the suffering, endure the suffering, be able to have an aim so that they can get through those moments, and they can almost have a heroic journey through it so that they can understand that the suffering is inevitable, and I'm now a stronger person.
00:54:13.000The university does the exact opposite.
00:54:48.000And then we wonder why they're 20 years old and they cannot hear an opinion they don't like without screaming belligerently.
00:54:54.000And so to finish the point, you now have an entire generation of Christian pastors that have been raised in this entire world where they have been deceptively taught a, I want to be very careful the way I say this.
00:55:08.000Let's just say a false intersection of the Bible and Marxist doctrine.
00:56:07.000And so when we take away this gift from God of pain in a fallen world to show us that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing, and it's what Aristotle calls the doing good and feeling good.
00:56:19.000Feeling good is you look at someone who's struggling with bondage to heroin, and the feeling good thing is to give them more heroin.
00:56:27.000The do-good is to take it away from them.
00:57:27.000Because I think it doesn't do service to how phenomenal the analysis that he puts forward, where he frames that most of the world is fragile.
00:57:34.000And the only word he could think of that would be the opposite of fragility would be anti-fragile.
00:57:40.000And his argument is that things that are anti-fragile survive and they get stronger and they have meaning and responsibility.
00:57:46.000Whereas most of society tries to create a hyperextension of fragility.
00:57:52.000And if you're able to actually be anti-fragile, like the greatest generation was, no matter what you throw at me, we are going to survive, no matter what it is.
00:58:36.000If the kid comes home and says, you know what, this is what happened.
00:58:39.000Man, I don't know about you guys, but when I, I didn't want to come home and tell my parents what happened because the first thought from my dad was, what'd you do?
00:58:49.000He laid down stripes and he'd see stars.
00:58:51.000But there's also, look, there's a much deeper point.
00:58:54.000What you're saying, though, is that you respected your father because there was discipline and order and a hierarchy, right?
00:59:01.000And eventually, through the maturation process, that hierarchy actually goes on its face where you actually end up becoming the caregiver for your father.
00:59:11.000However, what's happened now is we now have entire social media movements that try to instill, let's say, disintegration for an eight-year-old against the father-mother hierarchy.
00:59:23.000Rebel against your parents, not just rebel, rebel is not even the right word.
00:59:26.000It is almost revolution against your parents, create a revolution against your parents.
00:59:48.000So, in closing, Rob and Jack, before we have to go into the next fun thing that we're doing, what can Christians do if they're stuck in a church that is being led by a coward or by a con man?
01:00:01.000By the way, the next thing that we're going to go do, we could get arrested.
01:00:14.000But they actually want to arrest us because they understand the principle.
01:00:17.000They actually understand martyrdom, and they know that if they arrested us, that would be such an unbelievable mistake.
01:00:25.000Yeah, today the church has to be led by pastors who are willing to divorce themselves from peer pressure, from likability, to have an actual vision, a passion, a calling from God that is worthy of their life.
01:00:40.000When you have a pastor who's dead, then you're going to find a church that's alive.
01:00:58.000I would add this: that in these trying times, when I watch men like Jack and others that inspire me, my biggest struggle, Charlie, and I want to say this to all the folks in Christendom, to avoid it being about politics completely, remember this and never forget this.
01:02:10.000If you go to a church led by someone who is currently being deceived, I've made the opinion that it's okay to withdraw and find a church that someone is being led by someone confident.
01:02:18.000You got two good Southern California options right here, one of the largest metropolitan areas in the country.
01:02:24.000So just leave the church, pull your tithes, put it to someone that wants to actually fight for what is good in the world.
01:02:30.000Share all good things with those who instruct you.
01:02:32.000Don't keep subsidizing people that are confused because your withdrawal from that actually might bring them to the right direction.
01:03:03.000You can email me freedom at charliekirk.com.
01:03:05.000I can give you options on how to help them.
01:03:06.000We're going to post some links at charliekirk.com to be able to help Rob and Jack, who are under attack and being threatened with arrest right here, right now.
01:03:14.000Please consider getting involved with Turning PointUSA at tpusa.com, tpusa.com.