The Charlie Kirk Show - Tyler Robinson Hearing Aftermath: Day 1

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00:01:17.000 All right, everybody.

00:01:18.000 Welcome to our special edition preliminary hearing recap that we're going to be doing every day to break down what happened in the preliminary hearing of Utah, State of Utah versus Tyler Robinson.

00:01:35.000 And we've got myself, Blake Neff here, and now we have Joe Bob, which is.

00:01:41.000 Joe Bob, welcome.

00:01:43.000 There you are.

00:01:44.000 And we've also got Joe Bob does amazing work for us.

00:01:48.000 He's got a great show.

00:01:49.000 Amazing.

00:01:50.000 Joe Bob, just for the audience, you've been on the show before, but just in case people don't realize, you've been with Turning Point for years.

00:01:57.000 You opened for Charlie.

00:01:58.000 You traveled with Charlie at all the campus events.

00:02:01.000 And you do a great show on Real America's Voice.

00:02:04.000 So God bless you, man.

00:02:06.000 Thank you for joining us today.

00:02:07.000 It's been a heavy day.

00:02:09.000 And I think that's where I'm just going to quickly start.

00:02:11.000 I have a whole breakdown of all the facts, and we have Graham Allen joining us, and then we have Andrea Burkhart, who's a legal commentator.

00:02:19.000 She's going to join us for the second half of the hour.

00:02:22.000 But I just want to start there.

00:02:24.000 I can't stress to you enough how much this day has affected me, has affected Joe Bob, Blake, everybody in this office, everybody at Turning Point.

00:02:36.000 It's so excruciating, actually, to have to be reliving all of this and to have it up front and in our faces again.

00:02:45.000 So, Joe Bob.

00:02:47.000 Maybe just tell what it's like for you, my friend.

00:02:50.000 You know, I actually appreciate you starting it off like that because coming into this, this is uncharted territory for everybody.

00:02:56.000 Like, I don't know.

00:02:57.000 Are we, you know, supposed to break it down like, you know, these super sophisticated legal minds that, of course, we all are?

00:03:05.000 Or are we supposed to be vulnerable about the fact that this was a tough day?

00:03:09.000 I was walking around the house earlier this morning and my wife was like, Hey, is something wrong?

00:03:14.000 And it's like, Yeah, there is.

00:03:17.000 And it just was.

00:03:19.000 One of those days where she could tell something was wrong.

00:03:22.000 But it wasn't, you know, it was just this sinking feeling that you had.

00:03:28.000 And I was there last week at HQ and we're talking with some people around there about what this was going to be.

00:03:36.000 And same sinking feeling when I, you know, kind of realized the gravity of Erica and Charlie's parents being in the room and what they were going to have to see during this whole process that is, of course, necessary to get justice.

00:03:52.000 But the very fact that you have to endure it doesn't make it better, doesn't make it good.

00:03:57.000 It's still terrible.

00:03:59.000 And so, you know, while there's the kind of progression of this, the proceeding of all of this is encouraging in the quest for justice.

00:04:08.000 Again, I'm glad you started off like that because it is a sinking, like heavy feeling has been around here.

00:04:14.000 It's so heavy.

00:04:15.000 It's so heavy.

00:04:16.000 Yeah, Blake, I know you've been sinking in just.

00:04:18.000 This was a heavy day, but with the knowledge, this is day one of a preliminary hearing that we talked to various people.

00:04:24.000 They said they think it'll go at least three days, it could go all five.

00:04:27.000 And then that's the preliminary hearing.

00:04:29.000 We'll talk to Andrew again and see what she thinks, but she says.

00:04:33.000 The trial might not hit until 2028, and then who knows how long that will go, and we might have to sit through appeals for this.

00:04:39.000 This is, we were getting a lot of well wishes.

00:04:42.000 I know you were, I was, and what I was telling everyone, telling people who emailed, is this is, it's going to be a long process, and we are here to see it through all the way to the end.

00:04:54.000 Let's get into this.

00:04:58.000 I just want to, it's a brief primer, keep it on all three of us so we can all chime in intermittently as we go through.

00:05:04.000 I'm just going to go through a couple facts since this is day one.

00:05:06.000 I just want to reiterate. 0.57

00:05:07.000 So, Erica was in court today. 0.87

00:05:09.000 She was seated next to Charlie's father, Rob, and his mother, Kathy, Catherine.

00:05:16.000 I call her Catherine.

00:05:19.000 They sat together.

00:05:19.000 They did enter through different entrances for security purposes, but inside they sat together.

00:05:25.000 And all the news reporting that I've read is that they were comforting each other, crying on each other's shoulders.

00:05:34.000 There was also Erica's sister, Erica's niece and nephew, representing the full extended family on both sides.

00:05:43.000 Including many relatives that couldn't be there, but they're there in spirit with them.

00:05:47.000 Don Jr. was there, obviously a close friend of Charlie's, his wife Bettina.

00:05:53.000 You also had Jack Posobic, Brandon Tatum, and Graham Allen, who's going to be joining us in just a second.

00:05:59.000 But to reiterate, this is day one of the preliminary hearing, not the trial.

00:06:05.000 As Blake said, there's no jury.

00:06:06.000 The purpose is for the state to present enough evidence to the judge, Tony Graff.

00:06:12.000 To meet the probable cause threshold.

00:06:15.000 And if that threshold is met, then it will go to a trial.

00:06:19.000 Okay.

00:06:20.000 So during the hearing, you see the state call witnesses and the defense may cross examine them.

00:06:24.000 And then we saw that today.

00:06:25.000 The defense may also call witnesses and the state may cross examine them too.

00:06:29.000 And there's a lot of, you'll hear a lot of mention of hearsay.

00:06:32.000 Well, the evidence governing a preliminary hearing is different in this case than a trial, right?

00:06:39.000 So the standard of proof is lower.

00:06:41.000 The purpose is you can admit what they call credible hearsay.

00:06:47.000 Okay.

00:06:47.000 Blake's not a lawyer, but he does play one from time to time on TV.

00:06:51.000 Do you have any clarifying?

00:06:53.000 It's just clarifying.

00:06:55.000 There's usually in a normal criminal trial, you have the right to confront your accusers.

00:07:00.000 And so, a long established principle in our legal system, I don't know about those around the world, but certainly in ours, is you generally can't go, oh, this office, you know, a police officer will say, this person told me that.

00:07:11.000 And in reality, you could bring that person in.

00:07:13.000 And instead, you just have this secondary hearsay.

00:07:15.000 You can't have someone.

00:07:18.000 That they heard something from someone while that guy's denying it and say, Well, we just believe this officer's telling the truth.

00:07:24.000 And so, the example here where it's coming up, for example, is they asked one of the second witnesses today what was in the medical examiner's report.

00:07:33.000 And he's just saying, Well, I saw this in the medical examiner's report.

00:07:36.000 And that's a credible hearsay in the sense this is a police officer who's describing a document that he read while they were preparing this case.

00:07:45.000 In the actual trial, we will be having the actual medical examiner on.

00:07:49.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:07:50.000 As a witness who will say, I performed this autopsy.

00:07:53.000 This is what I found.

00:07:54.000 They can be cross examined.

00:07:55.000 But for the case of this sort of probable cause thing, it's totally acceptable for them to have a police officer say, We have this and we generally trust this person unless there's an obvious reason to believe the law.

00:08:06.000 And Judge Graff has been very disciplined.

00:08:09.000 He's sort of balls and strikes kind of guy.

00:08:12.000 I think he's very cognizant of the fact that he doesn't want to make a misstep that could make it appealable or whatever, right?

00:08:19.000 The defense has fought very hard to prevent cameras in the courtroom.

00:08:23.000 Okay.

00:08:23.000 They previously filed a standing objection to the state's preliminary hearing exhibits.

00:08:27.000 Today they stated additional objections as.

00:08:30.000 Each exhibit was introduced.

00:08:32.000 And that was one of the big storylines today.

00:08:34.000 Every single exhibit they would object to.

00:08:37.000 So that's why we saw a whole lot of, I would say, theater, trial theater from the defense today regarding those objections.

00:08:44.000 The judge has been very straightforward, balls and strikes, like I said.

00:08:47.000 And it seems like the defense's strategy has been to blur the focus, right?

00:08:53.000 They're delaying, they want to kind of slow things down, which is not surprising given everything that we've seen from this far.

00:09:01.000 But You know, at least that's my view, right?

00:09:03.000 That this blurring of the focus, so they can't lay out the details.

00:09:07.000 So, as you as a watcher, and Joe Bob, I'd be curious your perspective, just watching this preliminary hearing, trying to sort of keep track of the details is difficult because it's bogged down in so much procedural back and forth.

00:09:19.000 So, last week on the Turning Point Tonight show, we broke down to the best of my ability, right?

00:09:24.000 I'm not an attorney, but the procedural process, kind of like what Blake had laid out, kind of what you guys have been talking about on the show pretty consistently.

00:09:33.000 In that there are different procedural rules for the pretrial and the actual trial.

00:09:37.000 Hearsay can be admitted.

00:09:39.000 All of these things, the defense seemed to be trying to add the actual trial to the pretrial, right?

00:09:51.000 They tried to have all of the rights of the defendant that exist in the trial to the pretrial with just the constant objections over and over and over again.

00:10:00.000 And I hope my terminology is correct there, but that's how I understood it.

00:10:03.000 But what I think.

00:10:04.000 Was really interesting.

00:10:06.000 And I recognize people don't have, you know, the full day to sit here and watch this, but I would encourage people to watch a big chunk of it if they can, because what I saw as an observer was prudence and discernment from the judge.

00:10:22.000 Every single thing he took it in, considered, decided whether or not it was going to get played for the courtroom and for the media, decided if that was, you know, good or bad, or, you know, obviously evidence admissible and inadmissible.

00:10:37.000 And You really got to see the process of thought that goes into it.

00:10:41.000 It's not just like this haphazard.

00:10:43.000 And again, I don't know why people would assume that it would be, but it was really good to see that reiteration of discernment on the bench to go, here's what we're considering.

00:10:54.000 Here's all the processes laid out.

00:10:56.000 And again, as more or less a lay person when it comes to the legal system, it was good to see that throughout the entire day, really.

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00:12:46.000 I'm told that we now have Graham.

00:12:47.000 Graham again, Graham Allen.

00:12:48.000 He's going to be, we're going to be letting him in.

00:12:50.000 We, um, Graham was actually in the courtroom all day.

00:12:54.000 So, I'm going to, while the studio gets Graham checked in here, I'm going to keep going with some of these breakdowns.

00:13:00.000 We prepared a point by point breakdown just keeping notes all day.

00:13:04.000 So, all in all, the state is going to call four witnesses and admit 40 to 50 exhibits.

00:13:12.000 I believe we do have the images of the exhibits if we get to throw those up.

00:13:16.000 Those are pieces of evidence.

00:13:17.000 They called two of those witnesses today and admitted about a dozen exhibits.

00:13:22.000 So, the Big, big, big takeaways.

00:13:25.000 And then I'm just going to stop here with the big takeaways, and then I'm going to bring Graham in.

00:13:30.000 Is I think first, Agent Hall testified that Robinson was seen on UVU surveillance video on campus a total of four times.

00:13:38.000 Four times.

00:13:38.000 On September 10th, before, during, and then after the shooting.

00:13:43.000 So that was a big one.

00:13:44.000 Four times.

00:13:44.000 Now, we're going to get into the video issues.

00:13:46.000 I think we'll talk about that with Andrea.

00:13:48.000 The internet's, I think, tempted to run away with that one, but there's nothing.

00:13:53.000 So, and then also that the medical examiner's report listed Charlie's cause of death as homicide by gunshot wound to the neck.

00:14:01.000 So, no exploding, Mike, none of that stuff.

00:14:05.000 The medical, the straight medical examiner's report says gunshot wound to the neck.

00:14:10.000 All right.

00:14:10.000 And then the other big takeaway is Officer Bagley confirmed that the roof of UVU's Losey Center was accessible by a public stairway and testified that he climbed to the rooftop immediately after the shooting.

00:14:21.000 There, he saw a red and black screwdriver.

00:14:24.000 And a disturbance in the gravel, which he described as markings consistent with someone lying in the prone position with a line of sight to where Charlie was speaking.

00:14:32.000 So I think those, from just an evidence standpoint, those were the big takeaways.

00:14:36.000 Graham Allen joins us now.

00:14:39.000 Graham, so grateful to have you, man.

00:14:42.000 And from the bottom of my heart, thank you for being in that courtroom and supporting Erica and her family, Rob and Kathy.

00:14:52.000 I couldn't do it, if I'm just going to be honest.

00:14:55.000 I think I would have.

00:14:56.000 I don't know how I would have reacted.

00:14:57.000 It was a weird day.

00:14:59.000 What was it like?

00:15:01.000 Well, weird day.

00:15:05.000 Tyler Robinson was maybe six, seven feet in front of me the entire day.

00:15:14.000 I've seen a lot of people recirculating an old clip on the internet of him laughing and things like that.

00:15:22.000 What I can confirm, what I did see that all of us saw that was on that front row, especially, is Tyler Robinson was very, very active in wanting to see evidence.

00:15:34.000 But when he would speak to, I saw the back of his head, when he would speak to his lawyer, I could see his lawyer's side profile and she was giggling and she was laughing.

00:15:45.000 And so that was hard to see in the courtroom.

00:15:50.000 A couple things I can put to bed, all this crap about Erica and Charlie's parents. 0.52

00:15:56.000 Not being on the same page or they don't like each other. 1.00

00:15:59.000 It was complete garbage. 0.98

00:16:01.000 I was on the same row, it was. 0.98

00:16:03.000 It was uh Erica, Charlie's parents uh, it was Jack Posobic me, Don jr, all in the front row the entire time.

00:16:12.000 Uh when, when we all got went on recess and were in the holding room, Erica was with Charlie's parents the entire time.

00:16:20.000 Charlie's parents were speaking to all of us and they were talking to all of us.

00:16:24.000 So all this garbage that Erica and the wife of Charlie Kirk and his parents, that they are not on the same page with each other. 1.00

00:16:36.000 That's total lunacy, total garbage. 0.97

00:16:40.000 I've also seen a couple of things, again, that they took our phones from us, so I'm catching up to what the internet is saying. 0.96

00:16:47.000 I would encourage everybody to watch as much of the trial as they can, because what a lot of bad actors are doing is they're taking clips of them introducing one piece of evidence.

00:16:59.000 For example, the gravel at the top of the building where the shot was taken.

00:17:04.000 There's this, there's one picture that they put into evidence and they're like, it's kind of hard to see the impressions that you saw that day.

00:17:12.000 Uh, is it not?

00:17:13.000 And the officer says, yes, it's kind of hard to see the impressions I saw.

00:17:16.000 Well, people were just clipping that. 0.61

00:17:18.000 And they're like, oh, this is a, this is a clown show. 0.81

00:17:21.000 Like like oh, just trust me bro, all this.

00:17:24.000 But then the very next piece of evidence that they introduce is an even better picture showing obvious indentations of a grown male that was in a prone position to take a sniper style shot with a rifle.

00:17:41.000 So I encourage as many people as possible to watch as much of the trial as they can.

00:17:47.000 I would also say that if you're watching this and you're on a side that believes, and I said this on my show today, this is about getting justice for Charlie.

00:17:56.000 But if you're on this friend's side that's all about these conspiracies and things, it appears to be the defense.

00:18:03.000 That doesn't want any evidence seen by anyone in any way, shape, form, or fashion.

00:18:10.000 It seems to be the defense that is against anything being admitted as evidence, being shown as evidence, all of those things.

00:18:19.000 And so that was pretty shocking to me.

00:18:22.000 I expected it anyway.

00:18:25.000 You can't underscore that point enough, though, Graham, is that I saw the same thing on social media where people were like, oh, they don't want to show any evidence.

00:18:34.000 And it's like, That's the defense.

00:18:37.000 The defense is the one pushing not to show evidence.

00:18:39.000 The state has been consistent like, we want cameras, we want to show all the evidence.

00:18:43.000 And every time the defense has come in with an objection about, oh, it can't be on that monitor or it can't be published, which I guess means visible in the courthouse because it hasn't been submitted as evidence, they're finding technicalities to sort of limit the publishing or exposure of said evidence.

00:19:01.000 And it just should be said you know who?

00:19:03.000 Someone was saying that today was the start of a show trial and.

00:19:07.000 The real truth is, everything about today has indicated this is one of the most methodical criminal justice proceedings any of us have ever seen.

00:19:16.000 It took us 10 months to get to this point of a preliminary hearing, something that is waived in a very large number of murder trials, something that happens within a handful of days in plenty of other, not just robberies, but murders, big cases like this one.

00:19:32.000 Here, they've taken ages to get here.

00:19:34.000 They have litigated every single point about evidence, about cameras, about timing, about representation, and they will continue to do so.

00:19:44.000 And I think it was very telling that other than those claims, For a lot of these people, they weren't even engaged today.

00:19:50.000 They were picking other fights.

00:19:52.000 Well, and I had somebody who's not connected with Turning Point and not connected at all with the trial, but he was just watching.

00:20:00.000 He sent me a text.

00:20:00.000 He said, The defense's hearsay objections were legally ridiculous and summarily overruled by Judge Graff.

00:20:08.000 The court was fully briefed on the matter in advance of the hearings and ruled, but the defense continues to raise this objection anyway.

00:20:17.000 So that's like a third part, completely unrelated, but this is a guy that's a prosecutor and he was just like, Filling me in, and I thought, okay, that's interesting.

00:20:25.000 And you were definitely go ahead, go ahead.

00:20:27.000 No, no, no, please.

00:20:28.000 Well, there were definitely conversations about that.

00:20:30.000 How long is the judge going to allow, you know, code 1102, section 12 to be, you know, repeated over and over?

00:20:42.000 Invoked to block the publishing of evidence.

00:20:44.000 Yeah.

00:20:45.000 Correct.

00:20:45.000 And there were a couple of, you know, prior defense attorneys in there that, you know, we were able to have not in the court, obviously, when we were, you know, in recess or whatnot.

00:20:55.000 you know, that would say that that's, you know, it's not a good sign.

00:20:59.000 You know, obviously everyone's innocent until proven guilty.

00:21:02.000 Obviously, that's the way our court system is done.

00:21:05.000 But it's never a good sign when the defense is just stalling like that over and over.

00:21:10.000 If I can talk about the video, if you would call it any type of, you know, small bump in the road, I want to put away any type of things because we were also briefed on this as well.

00:21:25.000 The video is not dead that they wanted to submit into evidence that the judge said, well, you know, it's been enhanced or whatever it is, like zoomed in or circled around.

00:21:36.000 Yeah, I want to get to actually, Graham, Graham, watch this.

00:21:39.000 So we have this clip, and just it helps to kind of bring some of this home.

00:21:43.000 This is the clip.

00:21:44.000 So this is when Judge Graff rejects the admittance of the state's compilation of videos.

00:21:50.000 Now, again, we're referencing when the state presented, I think, questioning the witness.

00:21:58.000 And they said four times, and they had a compilation where they put together those four videos.

00:22:04.000 This is that clip, SOT 55.

00:22:07.000 This is a compilation video that was put together from a bunch of different sources by the county attorney's office.

00:22:16.000 This individual did not create this compilation, can't testify to the accuracy of the actual materials that it was taken from, and furthermore, Mr. Olson himself is just referred to by Agent Hall.

00:22:38.000 He specifically says people have altered these recordings.

00:22:42.000 They've zoomed in when the actual recording isn't zoomed.

00:22:46.000 They've added little circles to people they wanted you to pay attention to.

00:22:49.000 They've blurred people's faces out.

00:22:51.000 So, I mean, it's been clearly altered.

00:22:53.000 And it's not, I mean, they admit it's been altered.

00:22:56.000 So we have real concern about the authenticity of it.

00:22:59.000 I'm going to go ahead and I'm sustaining the objection.

00:23:03.000 All right.

00:23:03.000 So, Graham, go ahead now that the audience all caught up.

00:23:07.000 Yeah.

00:23:07.000 So what the judge actually said, okay, to in that was not this grand slam dunk, like, oh, the state didn't get their evidence.

00:23:20.000 That's not what's happening.

00:23:22.000 The judge, what he did in that was he didn't have from the person on the state side who actually zoomed in in certain areas or put red circles around to make it more easy what you were seeing.

00:23:37.000 It's kind of like telling John Madden back in the day that he.

00:23:39.000 He manipulated the footage that he's replaying showing you.

00:23:44.000 That's a perfect analogy.

00:23:46.000 So it wasn't altered.

00:23:48.000 It wasn't like AI.

00:23:50.000 What they did is they used a John Madden style, exactly right, where he'd freeze frame the NFL clip and he'd circle, like, look what the ball's doing here, and it's going to shoot this way, and watch, they're going to move this way.

00:24:01.000 So they were trying to spotlight different things they wanted to draw attention to.

00:24:06.000 Correct.

00:24:07.000 And the video will be resubmitted as evidence.

00:24:11.000 The only question is, and it will make it into evidence, it's only a matter of Question of in what form?

00:24:15.000 Will it be the raw original form or will they?

00:24:20.000 Because they're going to resubmit this video as evidence when the court's back in session tomorrow morning.

00:24:26.000 However, we just don't know what the judge is going to rule if it has to be the raw.

00:24:30.000 Either way, the evidence is what the evidence is that they saw him four times on campus.

00:24:35.000 Correct.

00:24:35.000 From my understanding, it was someone inside the state, you know, the prosecution's team that did it, but they just didn't have a signed I think they called it 1102 or something like that.

00:24:48.000 Yes, I did it.

00:24:49.000 I am the one who edited this.

00:24:51.000 Yeah.

00:24:52.000 Yeah.

00:24:52.000 I didn't, you know, edit or redact anything.

00:24:57.000 Sure.

00:24:57.000 So, from my understanding, the plan is they're going to submit both.

00:25:03.000 They're going to submit the unenhanced version along with the version they wanted to yesterday.

00:25:11.000 And from the way it sounded with the judge, he's going to watch both of them then at that point.

00:25:15.000 But you're right.

00:25:16.000 It's going to be submitted tomorrow officially in as evidence.

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00:26:01.000 Joe Bob, you have something you want to talk about.

00:26:03.000 Graham.

00:26:04.000 So, one of the big social media clips that moving, I don't know, is the right word, but got a lot of attention was Judge Graff watching the explicit video and his reaction, which in Probably is way more tame than most people would react.

00:26:25.000 One, were you in the courtroom for that?

00:26:27.000 And two, can you describe what that was like watching those videos?

00:26:32.000 We have that clip here, Graham, if you want me to show it.

00:26:35.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:26:37.000 It's the same one you posted, Graham, on X, so it's got a music bed to it, but 56.

00:26:58.000 Yeah.

00:26:59.000 It's wild to watch.

00:27:00.000 It really is.

00:27:01.000 I was there.

00:27:03.000 We all were there.

00:27:04.000 And so every one of the videos that were graphic in nature were admitted as evidence, but both the state and the defense did not want it to be seen publicly due to the graphic nature of it because we've all, well, the vast majority of people saw the horrific social media, you know.

00:27:33.000 iPhone images of what happened to Charlie.

00:27:37.000 But especially when the 4K videos were put in there, that was a tough moment.

00:27:49.000 That was a really tough moment.

00:27:52.000 To be clear, though, Graham, these were the videos that were rolling of the event.

00:28:00.000 These are the 4K cameras that were around Charlie.

00:28:05.000 And That were submitted, that were handed over to authorities the moments after it happened, I guess.

00:28:12.000 And so they've never been publicly viewed.

00:28:15.000 Correct.

00:28:16.000 Yes.

00:28:16.000 And so, you know, those of us that were in the rows, I mean, you know, the audio is playing and we all know exactly when it happened.

00:28:25.000 So, I mean, you know, we've all heard the moment, the question Charlie was asked and his beginning to answer.

00:28:32.000 And so, you know, I looked around, you know, kind of my left and my right and everybody kind of had their hand kind of clenched because we all knew exactly when.

00:28:40.000 The moment happened.

00:28:43.000 But on that video specifically, I was looking right at the judge when that happened.

00:28:47.000 And so, yeah, it was, yeah, I mean, it's tough.

00:28:51.000 It's tough to look at.

00:28:52.000 And so, his reaction is a real reaction.

00:28:58.000 You mentioned you were looking around to people to your left and your right.

00:29:03.000 I know that Erica and her family got the opportunity to leave during the demonstration of certain exhibits.

00:29:12.000 Were they able to leave during that or were they still there?

00:29:15.000 Because the judge was just like, how did that work?

00:29:17.000 Yeah, so they briefed us on that when we were in a recess.

00:29:20.000 That because, uh, but obviously Erica and Charlie's family did not want to see that, and so we knew that they were going to let us know when that moment was going to happen.

00:29:37.000 And so, yes, Char or excuse me, Charlie, goodness, Erica and Charlie's family. left.

00:29:44.000 And so the only people left on the very front row was Jack Posobic was on my left and Don Jr. and his wife were on my right.

00:29:55.000 And that's all that was left on the front row when Erica and Charlie's family left.

00:30:01.000 And then Brandon Tatum and others were behind us on the next row.

00:30:06.000 So yes, they did get an opportunity to leave, but it was kind of a known leave because they didn't want to see that, nor should they have to.

00:30:16.000 No.

00:30:16.000 And even just being able to hear it.

00:30:19.000 Correct.

00:30:20.000 Right.

00:30:23.000 Yeah.

00:30:24.000 Like I said, I'm just so glad you were in there.

00:30:27.000 Something I didn't see people talking about, and I wonder if you saw it.

00:30:32.000 Did you see people outside the courthouse?

00:30:35.000 Either protesters, people trolling them, trying to make fun of it the way we saw at our women's event, or even maybe fringe YouTubers.

00:30:47.000 Yeah.

00:30:47.000 What's it like in the vicinity?

00:30:49.000 Yeah, so where they have us all entering in at, it's pretty locked down.

00:30:56.000 There is a little bit of what looks like a parking structure up on top, and you have some news crews that are pointing down and things like that.

00:31:05.000 It was mainly just media when we were walking in.

00:31:08.000 I mean, there's a lot of videos on the internet of us walking into the courtroom and things like that.

00:31:16.000 I didn't see any protesters per se in that exact moment.

00:31:21.000 There were some people that were trying to get Don Jr. to comment and things, and he respectfully said, no, I'm here to support a friend.

00:31:29.000 I'm not doing any on-the-record stuff and things like that, which I thought was very classy of him.

00:31:35.000 He's simply there for Charlie and for Erica.

00:31:38.000 And so I thought that that was a really big thing because it's not easy to sit in that courtroom all day and listen and just the mundane of all of it.

00:31:51.000 There was another moment where that I saw some people chattering about online where, you know, Charlie's, either Erica and Charlie's parents or Charlie's parents got up abruptly and left or something like that.

00:32:05.000 From what I understand, Charlie's mom got a nosebleed.

00:32:08.000 You know, it's dry weather here.

00:32:10.000 I don't think it was anything serious.

00:32:11.000 And she was fine the rest of the day.

00:32:12.000 Like I said, Charlie's parents were great.

00:32:15.000 They were talking to all of us in the recess rooms with Erica right there.

00:32:21.000 And so, again, when I see all these things, and again, I was playing catch up with my phone.

00:32:27.000 It's just, it's so shocking how many people have no idea what they're talking about.

00:32:31.000 Well, and that's been my whole experience of the last 10 months, Graham.

00:32:36.000 It's like totally out of the loop.

00:32:39.000 The disconnect between real life and where the internet will go for it.

00:32:45.000 That's one of the reasons we're doing this daily recap because I want people to have somewhere where they can just get the actual facts from the case.

00:32:52.000 Graham and Joe Bob, I want to work you in here too. 0.53

00:32:56.000 And then we've got Andrea Burkhart.

00:32:57.000 She's actually standing by already, which is great.

00:33:00.000 But, Graham, what about Tyler Robinson's family?

00:33:03.000 Did you see them?

00:33:05.000 And did you know which ones they were kind of?

00:33:08.000 I didn't know who they were initially, but they were pointed out to me.

00:33:12.000 So the way that we were lined up is it's not like the courtroom like you see on TV, you know, like where there's like two distinct sides and there's like this side and then that side.

00:33:25.000 It was four rows horizontal to the actual courtroom that most people saw, you know, from the camera position.

00:33:34.000 So, the front row, like I said, was Erica and Charlie's family.

00:33:39.000 And then it was Jack Vasobic, me, Don Jr., his wife.

00:33:42.000 The next row, Stacey Sheridan was in there, Brandon Tatum, several other people were on the back row.

00:33:49.000 And then I believe Tyler Robinson's family was on the third row.

00:33:54.000 And then that fourth row was for just some random public people that got a seat in there.

00:34:02.000 How many people are we talking about, Graham?

00:34:06.000 All in.

00:34:06.000 I think that we're viewing it or in total?

00:34:09.000 Like, just in total.

00:34:11.000 Like, how many people were guests in that courtroom?

00:34:14.000 I'm just curious.

00:34:15.000 Oh, guests.

00:34:17.000 Maybe 40, maybe 50 people when it was on the same page.

00:34:21.000 That's small, though, still.

00:34:23.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:34:23.000 And that's including the media.

00:34:25.000 And the media was sitting where normally the jury would sit, I would imagine.

00:34:30.000 Got it.

00:34:31.000 Graham, could you get a feel for what the media might have been talking about, chattering about, prepared to?

00:34:37.000 Put out.

00:34:38.000 Was there any sense of that that you get, or did you not really interact with the media that was there too much?

00:34:45.000 You guys know me.

00:34:45.000 I'm not a big fan of the media.

00:34:48.000 So I didn't have it on my radar to talk to them specifically.

00:34:54.000 I did note that a lot of them were looking our direction a lot of the time, it seemed like.

00:35:00.000 Maybe that was toward Erica or Charlie's parents.

00:35:04.000 Maybe that was towards Tyler Robinson's parents.

00:35:07.000 I don't know.

00:35:10.000 But I did note that they were looking our direction an awful lot.

00:35:16.000 Graham, final thoughts here.

00:35:18.000 Please, any final things that you noticed or want to make sure that we hear from you?

00:35:22.000 And then we're going to take a quick two minute reset break and bring Andrea Burkhart in next.

00:35:28.000 So, Graham, any final thoughts?

00:35:31.000 Just continue to pray for Erica, for Charlie's parents, for the family.

00:35:37.000 This is day one, right?

00:35:39.000 And so it's just getting started.

00:35:43.000 Forensics and all that stuff haven't even been introduced.

00:35:47.000 I mean, there's so much more to do.

00:35:50.000 Just continue to pray.

00:35:51.000 And then I said this on the show this morning when all this is said and done and justice has been served and all this, my biggest hope and prayer is that Charlie's legacy is what, you know, is the life he lived and not how he died, is my biggest hope and everything.

00:36:09.000 And so we just want the truth.

00:36:12.000 And this is actually how you get it and how you actually get actual justice.

00:36:17.000 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:36:19.000 Sunlight's the best disinfectant.

00:36:20.000 We want full transparency, we want everything to be.

00:36:23.000 Visible and viewable for the, I mean, not the graphic stuff, candidly.

00:36:27.000 I don't know.

00:36:27.000 I mean, I don't think anybody needs to see Charlie being, you know, in 4K.

00:36:32.000 I don't, I don't need to see that.

00:36:34.000 But either way, Graham, I just want to finish with this and say thank you again.

00:36:40.000 Means a lot to us on a very personal level, right?

00:36:43.000 Like everybody's, you know, you got your show, we got ours and, and influencer, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.

00:36:49.000 No, like on a very personal level, it means the world to us that you were in there supporting Erica and, Rob and Kathy and the whole family.

00:36:59.000 So thank you, man.

00:37:01.000 Least I could do.

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00:39:14.000 We have Andrea Burkhart, legal commentator.

00:39:17.000 She's a trial and appellate litigator.

00:39:19.000 You can find her at Substack, Andrea Burkhart.

00:39:22.000 Substack.com.

00:39:24.000 Andrea, welcome and thank you for making the time.

00:39:28.000 You've been covering this trial.

00:39:31.000 Really, you've been a source of information for me too.

00:39:33.000 You have a way of looking at things and insight because you've done this before.

00:39:38.000 Big picture, what do you make of this?

00:39:40.000 And then I want to get in on day one, and then I want to get into what we can expect tomorrow morning and coming up next based on the exhibit list that has been made public.

00:39:51.000 Yeah, so, so far, there's nothing that's happened that has struck me as particularly surprising.

00:39:57.000 Every jurisdiction has their own rules and their own ways of doing things.

00:40:01.000 And so there can be a lot of variation in kind of the specifics of how things happen.

00:40:06.000 But by and large, just in terms of what's being presented, how they're presenting it, The volume and nature of the objections that we're getting from the defense as well.

00:40:15.000 These are all things that, to my view, as somebody who's handled these and similar kind of hearings before, appears to be going largely according to script, consistent with the expectations that the parties would have had for how a hearing like this is expected to go.

00:40:34.000 I think the big question that a lot of people have, and Blake and I were debating it, and we were talking to some other people trying to figure out why.

00:40:42.000 I think I texted you about it.

00:40:44.000 I think you had a great answer, so I want you to share it here.

00:40:46.000 Why is the defense basically trying to object to every single exhibit, right?

00:40:54.000 What is the tactic here?

00:40:56.000 Is there anything to read into it?

00:40:57.000 Well, I think that is normal.

00:41:00.000 As always in a death penalty case, you just do expect to see a little bit more vigorous of a defense than you might in cases that don't have quite as much at stake.

00:41:11.000 That said, it's always a bit of a strategy call and maybe to some extent a style issue as well.

00:41:18.000 How attorneys decide to manage things like objections in a case.

00:41:23.000 What we saw today was just repeated objections.

00:41:29.000 There's already a standing objection on the record that was filed in writing, but the defense is taking the opportunity to reiterate that objection, explain it multiple times.

00:41:42.000 And so it can perhaps come across as a bit repetitive to be hearing the same objection.

00:41:49.000 Yeah, but can't that eventually sort of backfire if you start frustrating the judge?

00:41:53.000 If you start sort of, I don't know, just becoming, well, it can't.

00:41:55.000 Coming off like obstructionist?

00:41:57.000 It can.

00:41:58.000 I mean, that is the trade off.

00:41:59.000 It is a style choice to be aggressive like that that can be off putting.

00:42:03.000 The risk is that if you simply flood the judge's attention with everything possible that you could raise as an objection, then you run the risk that when there's something really good and really, really strong, it's going to be lost in the fog of everything that you've already thrown at him.

00:42:20.000 And he's not going to realize.

00:42:22.000 You know, oh, this time, you know, they really mean it, and there's really something substantive here.

00:42:28.000 So, it is a little bit of a risky play.

00:42:30.000 But just given their position and the fact that they do have an obligation to make the best record they can, looking down the road and anticipating future appeals and future post conviction processes to make sure that they're not waiving any possible objection that he could make at any point of this process, that's going to be a big driving factor for why they are behaving the way they are.

00:42:54.000 Really fascinating.

00:42:55.000 And I do think it's interesting, especially if they try that.

00:42:58.000 Strategy in a trial, which I know you've warned us could be as late as 2028, which I'm still like smarting from, to be perfectly honest.

00:43:07.000 But if they try that in a jury trial, I can imagine that would be very frustrating for a jury.

00:43:13.000 That would be very frustrating for the entire legal process, probably Judge Graff.

00:43:18.000 So that's, I think that's important to kind of keep in mind.

00:43:21.000 So I'll, I, we mentioned this in the first part of the hour, and I want to ask you this one question, then we'll get into the exhibit list and what we can expect next.

00:43:31.000 The, I think the big bombshell today, if there was one, I certainly took note, is that the state is claiming that they have evidence of him, of Tyler Robinson, being on campus four times the day of September 10th two times in the morning, one time during the actual shooting, and then one time in the wee hours of the night that even bled into September 11th.

00:43:53.000 But then there was this controversy about the video, and Judge actually did sustain that objection because the video had been altered.

00:44:01.000 Please explain how you.

00:44:03.000 Perceive that?

00:44:04.000 I know that the evidence is going to be resubmitted tomorrow morning.

00:44:07.000 They're going to submit apparently both the raw and the edited.

00:44:10.000 It's not AI edited, it's not enhanced, it's not changed.

00:44:13.000 They just, John Madden style, zoomed in, drew circles around certain things to draw your attention to what they wanted you to pay attention to.

00:44:19.000 But how did you perceive that?

00:44:21.000 Well, I perceived a lot of this as a little bit of a feeling out by everybody to get a sense of what the parties are going to try, what types of limits, rules they're going to try to impose, and then what the judge's tolerances is going to be.

00:44:37.000 Within that playing ground.

00:44:39.000 So, what the prosecution was trying to do is really not unusual.

00:44:44.000 It's trying to prepare an exhibit in a way that maximizes its helpfulness.

00:44:49.000 It's very common, particularly with things like video evidence, that there's a lot of dead time and you don't necessarily want to watch the whole thing.

00:44:57.000 It's just wasteful.

00:44:59.000 Yeah.

00:45:00.000 And you're not even sure where your eye is supposed to be looking.

00:45:02.000 Sometimes, if it's grainy or whatever, those little aids can help, like, be like, hey, look here because this is where the suspect walks through the frame.

00:45:09.000 You know, that to me makes a lot of sense.

00:45:11.000 And, but they're saying it adds bias or something?

00:45:15.000 Is that their argument?

00:45:16.000 Oh, no.

00:45:16.000 The only, the sole issue that came up really with this is that because they didn't have the person who actually prepared those edits available to testify or, you know, submit a statement that explains what they did and exactly what the alterations were, that they weren't sufficiently authenticated for purposes of admission in court.

00:45:37.000 They are basically resolving that problem by, as you said, their intention is now to just.

00:45:43.000 Present the unedited compilation of the different video clips that they collected.

00:45:49.000 And so then they'll be able to show the judge that, and that will enable him to then see when he looks at the edited version what exactly they did to revise it and to draw it to his attention.

00:46:01.000 So there won't be any confusion about what was the raw video and what was added by somebody for editorial purposes.

00:46:09.000 Okay.

00:46:09.000 No, that makes a lot of sense.

00:46:10.000 Okay.

00:46:11.000 So I want to.

00:46:14.000 Yeah, okay.

00:46:15.000 So we do have that clip.

00:46:16.000 All right.

00:46:17.000 54, just to underscore your point here, Andrea.

00:46:19.000 Stop 54.

00:46:21.000 We're going to resume with Mr. Hall tomorrow morning.

00:46:23.000 Tomorrow morning.

00:46:24.000 And let me explain to, and I was going to explain this, but let me explain why.

00:46:28.000 Judge, our intent is to prepare an original version of the video that has been in dispute today without the circles, without the blur, and without the zooming in.

00:46:41.000 And our intent is to introduce that tomorrow as a different exhibit.

00:46:47.000 And we just can't prepare that in the next hour or so.

00:46:49.000 For today, Agent Nahal, you may step down, and we'll resume with your testimony tomorrow morning.

00:46:55.000 All right.

00:46:56.000 So that just to sort of bring it home, I want to take our attention to the exhibit list that's been made public.

00:47:03.000 And if I'm reading this, right, so we got four witnesses that they're planning to bring up.

00:47:08.000 The first two we've now met, we're halfway through with the second.

00:47:13.000 It seems like we're about to enter the phase of the preliminary hearing where we start getting into forensic, we start getting into DNA, and probably, maybe we might see that video from Lance Twiggs, who's Tyler Robinson's lover.

00:47:28.000 So, am I reading that right?

00:47:31.000 Or do you think that the defense is slowing things down to the extent that we're not going to get that far tomorrow?

00:47:37.000 Where I expect we're going to go, it appears to me that the state is telling basically a chronological story.

00:47:44.000 They're putting this in order in terms of the timeline.

00:47:48.000 If that's correct, then we won't probably get the forensics until close to the end.

00:47:52.000 And what we would instead get is leading into the process of we've started the identification of Tyler Robinson as the suspect.

00:48:01.000 We've introduced the topic of his surrender, but we haven't tied those pieces together how Tyler Robinson became known to the police, how he came to be in custody, how some of these pieces of evidence were obtained, you know, how they were able to get Tyler's DNA in order to do this comparison in the first place.

00:48:20.000 Those are all going to follow on the story of the identification, the surrender, and then the arrest and taking into custody, seizure of additional evidence.

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00:49:32.000 I think it's just looking at this, it's Exhibit 16 is the recorded statement from Lance Twiggs.

00:49:40.000 Which, if you remember, there was that back and forth whether or not he was going to be subpoenaed to come in.

00:49:45.000 The judge said he did not need to be subpoenaed, that the video would suffice.

00:49:50.000 But if you're talking chronological order, then we probably would get 16.

00:49:55.000 It's right.

00:49:55.000 I mean, I would think maybe that could be tomorrow, but that really makes sense to me what you just said.

00:49:59.000 Although they seem to have followed this significantly through chronological order almost of practically the order they got the information in, because they started with you're at the scene, these are videos that we obtained at the scene.

00:50:12.000 And then here's the video we obtained from UVU, and then eventually.

00:50:16.000 Maybe I'm totally out of time.

00:50:16.000 That's actually an interesting wrinkle there.

00:50:19.000 When you say chronological order, Andrea, do you mean the order by which they got the evidence, or is it as the events took place that day on the 11th and so forth?

00:50:31.000 Yeah, no, I think that's a good correction by Blake.

00:50:34.000 That's a very good point.

00:50:35.000 It's the story of the investigation, because that's really what the probable cause hearing is focused on did the investigation produce reasonable suspicion to believe that this person likely committed this crime?

00:50:48.000 And so the story of the investigation is kind of a Common way to frame that particular issue for the court to understand what police learned when they learned it, how it fit into their investigation, and then from that, what are the reasonable inferences that you can draw at each step along the way.

00:51:05.000 So, because this is kind of a check on the police and the prosecutor's reasoning in how they conducted the investigation, the chronological story of how they conducted that investigation just tends to be an easy way to follow that.

00:51:20.000 We asked Jay Town in the Earlier, but I wonder if you're going to give the same answer as him.

00:51:26.000 I just asked so we have the statement, this interview they did with Twigs.

00:51:30.000 It's videotaped.

00:51:32.000 They're going to obviously introduce it.

00:51:35.000 Is it likely, you think, that we will hear the whole thing played for us tomorrow?

00:51:40.000 Will they merely maybe show a screenshot of it that it exists, introduce a transcript?

00:51:44.000 How much are we likely to get of new information?

00:51:46.000 Because right now, we essentially only have that this recording exists.

00:51:51.000 Well, that's the million dollar question.

00:51:53.000 If I were going to.

00:51:55.000 You know, go to the prediction markets on this one.

00:51:59.000 Just based on what we've seen from Judge Graff so far, I would expect that we are going to at least hear it, possibly see it as well.

00:52:07.000 But the reason I say that is because while he has certainly shielded some of the exhibits from public view so far, those have largely been grounded in concerns about the dignity of the victim and just kind of the common sense.

00:52:24.000 There are certain things that don't need to be on TV blasted everywhere.

00:52:28.000 For everybody to see for all eternity.

00:52:32.000 This is not that.

00:52:33.000 That said, the defense is going to have extremely strong objections to this.

00:52:38.000 They're going to argue this is highly prejudicial to the defense.

00:52:41.000 It's the kind of thing that is going to, people are going to form opinions of guilt based off of it.

00:52:48.000 And so, because of the potential to prejudice the jury pool, it should not be made public.

00:52:54.000 So far, that argument has had really only limited success with Judge Graff.

00:53:00.000 His view has been that.

00:53:02.000 Number one, there are other mechanisms that exist to deal with pretrial publicity. 0.74

00:53:07.000 We call in large jury pools. 0.54

00:53:08.000 We do big jury questionnaires.

00:53:10.000 We do a lot of individual questioning and things like that to root out people that have either too firm opinions about the case or just know too much about it and can't put that aside.

00:53:22.000 But also because, you know, this is, I guess, the upside of the trial potentially being so far down the road is that the prejudice has time to mitigate.

00:53:32.000 You know, it's not like we're having this hearing and then we're going to go have.

00:53:34.000 Trial tomorrow.

00:53:35.000 So everything that happened is going to be fresh in everybody's mind.

00:53:38.000 There's a lot of time for new information, for memories to fade, and things like that.

00:53:44.000 So if I were going to predict it, I would predict that we are going to be able to see that one.

00:53:51.000 And that's certainly the outcome I'm hoping for.

00:53:53.000 Yeah.

00:53:54.000 So the way this works, just to bring everybody back into sort of a procedural mindset, the state goes first.

00:54:03.000 They've allotted five days for this, but it This could, and it's like four and a half because Wednesday is scheduled to be a half day.

00:54:09.000 So, if you're just looking at how much progress we're making, do you see the state going up until taking up all that time until Wednesday and then the defense taking Thursday, Friday?

00:54:20.000 Or are you getting a read of how this is going to work?

00:54:22.000 Because again, the state presents, the defense is going to cross examine, then the defense gets to call their witnesses and the state will cross examine.

00:54:32.000 So, just want to make sure everybody's still tracking with us on the actual TikTok here.

00:54:37.000 Thoughts?

00:54:38.000 Yeah, I think that's probably in about the ballpark that I would expect the state to be done at.

00:54:43.000 This rate probably by the end of Wednesday or maybe partway into the day on Thursday.

00:54:48.000 It just depends on some of the details of how these things flesh out.

00:54:53.000 We are expecting the three forensic experts that the defense wants to call.

00:54:59.000 The state did not object to them doing that.

00:55:01.000 So these are going to be analysts likely from the FBI or the ATF.

00:55:07.000 And so I'm not really expecting that to be extensive.

00:55:12.000 They're not going to offer the same kind of like.

00:55:15.000 Long background testimony that we're getting from these witnesses, like Officer Bagley and Agent Hull, who participated extensively in different parts of the investigation.

00:55:26.000 So there's just a lot of time and material for them to cover.

00:55:30.000 The forensics tend to be much more discreet, and so they do tend to go a little bit faster for that reason.

00:55:38.000 Okay.

00:55:39.000 So we've got, I'm trying to make sure we dealt with all of the things I saw online.

00:55:45.000 Erica was actually sitting next to Charlie's parents.

00:55:48.000 We dealt with that.

00:55:48.000 Graham.

00:55:49.000 Did that.

00:55:52.000 The issue of the defense, it was actually the defense that was trying to block the presentation of the evidence, not the state, not the prosecution.

00:56:00.000 And just to be expressly clear, we are in favor of max transparency here.

00:56:04.000 We are.

00:56:06.000 And then, you know, the online chatter about the compilation video that's going to be resubmitted tomorrow.

00:56:13.000 If you're now, I had, there's a, I have all these lawyers in my life that I didn't realize that are like texting me out of the blue.

00:56:20.000 I'm like, oh, hi, nice, you know, I forgot about you from high school.

00:56:23.000 School and you know, like there, but I had another one of these guys text me, and he was basically saying that he thinks his basic understanding of the defenses tactic here is sort of the dog that didn't bark, right?

00:56:38.000 It's almost like a tell that they don't have a better defense strategy, that they're going straight obstruction.

00:56:43.000 I mean, am I reading too much into that, or is this person who gave me that take?

00:56:51.000 Tell me if I'm wrong, all right?

00:56:52.000 You're the bearer of good and bad news, you call balls and strikes, sure.

00:56:56.000 Well, look, I did this job for almost 20 years.

00:57:00.000 So everybody has a little bit of a different style and a little bit of a different approach, but there are some pretty common grounds, particularly with the folks that I relate to, which is the professional public defenders here on this defense team.

00:57:14.000 And so there are certain things that I expect to be the case given that.

00:57:19.000 I expect that if there is a strong case for factual innocence, the defense is going to be asserting that.

00:57:25.000 They are going to assert it early, they are going to assert it often.

00:57:28.000 And that's because.

00:57:29.000 It's just kind of routine.

00:57:32.000 It's normal that anytime somebody is charged with a crime, there's a high volume of information from the state side, from the prosecution side, about why the charges are being laid.

00:57:45.000 But the defense side often doesn't get heard.

00:57:48.000 And so you have something that corrects some of that information.

00:57:51.000 You're going to bring that out early.

00:57:52.000 You're going to bring that out often to try to correct some of that just public opinion, public impression about the case.

00:58:00.000 Make sure that they understand there's more to the story here.

00:58:04.000 Also, just seeing what has been focused on in the litigation that's happened in the trial so far, some things stand out to me.

00:58:12.000 One is the absence of discovery disputes.

00:58:16.000 One of the online chatter things that happens periodically, there have been some.

00:58:22.000 Some statements made about the record about what the defense has or has not received through the discovery process.

00:58:29.000 The defense has, by their own account, received a massive volume of information, hundreds and hundreds of terabytes of information, raw video data, raw cell phone data, digital data, a lot of this type of information.

00:58:44.000 And so there may be things around the edges that the defense is unhappy with, but so far, none of that has risen to the level.

00:58:52.000 Of actually moving for a court order to compel that it be produced to you.

00:58:56.000 There may be reasons for that.

00:58:58.000 It may be because they're just waiting till this preliminary hearing is over.

00:59:03.000 It may be because they don't actually have a strong right to get what it is that they're asking for.

00:59:10.000 And maybe that's what this stuff has been able to be resolved.

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01:00:15.000 That's a really good point.

01:00:16.000 So just because, so because I'm just always predicting where the internet is going to go next.

01:00:21.000 So they're going to hear the defense go, We asked for this information and they're not giving it.

01:00:25.000 And basically, there are a lot of explanations of why that.

01:00:29.000 Why they may not want to rush to give said intel, right?

01:00:33.000 Maybe they believe the prosecution believes that they're not entitled to such and such, right?

01:00:37.000 Or that they are planning on doing it, but, you know, and what would be the conflict resolution there?

01:00:43.000 Would the judge rule what they're entitled?

01:00:45.000 It's kind of case by case.

01:00:47.000 Yeah, there can be a lot of different reasons why you might be asking for something.

01:00:51.000 And there's different levels of entitlement to it.

01:00:55.000 Utah rule what you're entitled to as a mandatory disclosure is very specifically defined.

01:01:00.000 But there are typically always catch alls where if, if, It's necessary in the interest of justice, in the interest of fairness, or things like that, the judge can order the prosecution to have to provide it.

01:01:12.000 There's always complications in cases where you have a state and federal law enforcement involved in a state prosecution.

01:01:21.000 This is a whole complicated issue because of the Supremacy Clause of our Constitution, under which federal law enforcement, they're not bound by orders of a state court.

01:01:33.000 They can't be subpoenaed into a state.

01:01:35.000 Court.

01:01:35.000 They can't be ordered to produce documents by a state court.

01:01:39.000 And so they have their own processes that you have to work through in order to get access to discovery from federal investigators.

01:01:47.000 This is something that criminal defense attorneys are very familiar with and have to navigate with some frequency, but it's not commonly known by the public what that looks like.

01:01:56.000 So that can be part of it.

01:01:58.000 Part of it can be things like we already know one of the requests that they've made is they want the source code for a proprietary piece of software that was used to calculate the, I'm going to use some technical language here, the deconvolution of the, the, The DNA mixture.

01:02:20.000 I don't know which example exactly, but some of the DNA that was recovered in this case was a complex mixture.

01:02:26.000 They have to analyze it statistically.

01:02:28.000 They use this software program.

01:02:30.000 And so the defense is demanding the source code to the software program.

01:02:34.000 I understand why they want it and think that there's a good reason why they should have it.

01:02:40.000 But whether that is something that the court can compel a private organization to turn over is a question.

01:02:47.000 Whether there needs to be some kind of protection for their intellectual property.

01:02:52.000 Property, you know, it's like a New Zealand company or something like that that owns the.

01:02:56.000 I think it's, yeah, government of New Zealand or government of Australia.

01:03:00.000 Right, right, right.

01:03:01.000 So, yeah.

01:03:02.000 And so just leave it to the internet, by the way, to take the court's inability to compel a foreign entity, a foreign private company, to give away its bread and butter, its moneymaker to the state of Utah or the defense of Tyler Robinson.

01:03:19.000 But that'll become the next thing people run with.

01:03:22.000 Blake, you had to.

01:03:23.000 Well, I just wanted to.

01:03:25.000 Because I think about it all the time.

01:03:28.000 When we last had you on, you predicted we're probably only going to see the trial early 2028, spring 2028.

01:03:37.000 Do you see any reason to adjust that timeline due to events of the last couple months?

01:03:41.000 Nope.

01:03:43.000 Nope.

01:03:43.000 I continue to think that that is, and I hate to say this, guys.

01:03:47.000 I really do hate to keep driving this home, but that's optimistic.

01:03:50.000 It really is.

01:03:51.000 There's just a very optimistic.

01:03:54.000 Yeah.

01:03:55.000 Early 2028 is optimistic.

01:03:57.000 There's a massive amount of investigation that the defense is going to need to do.

01:04:01.000 And there's a massive amount of litigation that is already being foreshadowed with things like the scientific evidence and stuff like that.

01:04:08.000 And this is all going to be very time consuming.

01:04:11.000 So it's going to take a while.

01:04:15.000 Terrible, terrible update, but I appreciate the candor.

01:04:19.000 Andrea, there have been reports from like News Nation has a reporter in there that Tyler Robinson, Graham actually, Graham Sot.

01:04:28.000 So, first-hand account from him as well, Graham Allen did, that Tyler Robinson and I guess his lawyer, Nestor, were laughing and that she was laughing.

01:04:40.000 And I've seen that go pretty far and wide.

01:04:43.000 You know, that's.

01:04:46.000 I'm just trying to put my head in the psychology.

01:04:48.000 If your client is, you know, standing trial for murder, it's a capital case, you could face the death penalty.

01:04:59.000 Why would you be laughing?

01:05:00.000 Is that a tell?

01:05:02.000 That's why they've been pushing so hard to keep cameras out.

01:05:05.000 Like, maybe that's why they want to, because they realize this kid's his own worst enemy in that way, just optically.

01:05:11.000 But then I'm sort of questioning, like, why is the lawyer giggling too?

01:05:16.000 I just can't fathom that.

01:05:18.000 Like, this is a really somber thing that's happening here.

01:05:22.000 Yeah, I can absolutely appreciate that perspective.

01:05:25.000 And I think this might be one of those situations where there is a disconnect between the way that the attorney and the defendant are encountering the Process and the way observers and even other participants in the courtroom are.

01:05:38.000 The defense lawyers' primary concern, number one, is their client's well being, period.

01:05:43.000 Full stop.

01:05:44.000 Whether he's guilty, whether he's innocent, that's what their primary concern is.

01:05:49.000 And so, court, for the best of us, is a stressful process.

01:05:56.000 And this is a young man who doesn't appear to have any kind of criminal history.

01:06:01.000 This is a new experience for him, it's very high profile.

01:06:04.000 They're going to want to put him at ease.

01:06:06.000 That's going to be one of their big concerns that he is not there racked with anxiety, that he understands the process, that he's Comfortable with what is going on.

01:06:18.000 So it probably does look bad.

01:06:21.000 And I think if they were thinking about it through that filter of what is it going to look like to the cameras watching, they might behave different.

01:06:30.000 But I don't think that is their primary consideration here.

01:06:33.000 They want their client comfortable.

01:06:35.000 And if that means adding some levity, some dark humor to the situation, Lord knows they are not the only ones in this whole process that have had to do that.

01:06:43.000 Yeah.

01:06:45.000 I think.

01:06:45.000 I think that kind of sums it up for the day.

01:06:48.000 Again, I think the big revelations were the four times.

01:06:52.000 They've got evidence that say video evidence of him being on campus four times.

01:06:57.000 Officer Bagley heard a shot and he identified it pretty quickly in his mind as a rifle shot.

01:07:04.000 He went up to the rooftop, saw what he would describe as a sniper's nest.

01:07:09.000 And then, you know, I think the other big one was yeah, I think those were the two big ones.

01:07:15.000 Those were really the two, from an evidentiary standpoint, those were the two big ones.

01:07:20.000 Revelations today.

01:07:22.000 Blake, Andrea, any final thoughts of things that we should be considering as we move into tomorrow and then we'll wrap this up?

01:07:29.000 I am just continuing to expect more of the same.

01:07:33.000 This has been a relatively organized process, just fairly simple in terms of the rulings and the types of objections and things like that.

01:07:44.000 There have been a little bit of bumps in the road to sort out with things like is the camera going to get to show the exhibits to those of us at home and things like that.

01:07:53.000 But that's normal to work through some of those growing pains.

01:07:57.000 And so now that everybody's on the same page about what the expectations are, I think we can expect a little bit more smooth sailing from here.

01:08:05.000 One last question here.

01:08:06.000 I got a lot of people reaching out to me just sort of saying, I can't believe the defense didn't waive the preliminary hearing.

01:08:13.000 Was that an option that they had?

01:08:15.000 And what kind of calculation is there either way?

01:08:19.000 Yeah, that's actually a great question.

01:08:21.000 And so part of the reason why I believe they didn't is because in Utah, it's not entirely up to them.

01:08:28.000 The prosecutor has a say in it as well.

01:08:30.000 There is some case law out of Utah that recognizes that the preliminary hearing is also a right that the state has to present the basis of its case and its charging decision to the public.

01:08:41.000 So, had the prosecutor agreed to waive, then we would be having potentially a different conversation.

01:08:48.000 But strategically, why people often do choose to waive it is because of what we're seeing.

01:08:53.000 There's evidence that's presented.

01:08:55.000 And if the evidence we can assume is inculpatory, it may not be the whole story.

01:09:01.000 But it's the reason why there is a charging decision.

01:09:04.000 It's selected for that purpose.

01:09:07.000 So it tends to be negative for the defendant from the standpoint of, you know, people having opinions about innocence or guilt.

01:09:15.000 Yeah.

01:09:16.000 Do we have any indication that the prosecutor got to weigh in on this?

01:09:21.000 Do we know that the prosecutor said, you know, hey, if you try and waive this, we're going to reject it?

01:09:26.000 We don't.

01:09:26.000 There's nothing in the record, one way or another.

01:09:29.000 Okay.

01:09:31.000 Any final thoughts?

01:09:33.000 I just, as you said, like the big things we learned today, I feel sometimes it's good to take a step back because we've heard so many insane things.

01:09:41.000 That's what we heard today.

01:09:42.000 There were no bombshells.

01:09:43.000 They were things we obviously expected to hear, which is we all, I mean, I physically saw Charlie shot by a rifle shot.

01:09:52.000 And this officer says, I heard a shot.

01:09:55.000 A guy jumped up and waved his hands around.

01:09:57.000 So I thought, oh, it was a close range thing.

01:09:59.000 And then I did the math in my head.

01:10:02.000 He didn't have a gun and that was a rifle shot.

01:10:04.000 And then he ran through.

01:10:05.000 And then he went and looked for that.

01:10:07.000 And we have evidence that Tyler Robinson had been on the scene and fled the scene.

01:10:13.000 And Low, they say we have the camera footage that says he was on the scene multiple times.

01:10:17.000 We're just getting exactly what we expected, and that's what we wanted to see.

01:10:20.000 Yeah, and I got underscored as well that we got the medical examiner's reference to it that it was death by a rifle or a gunshot wound to the ground.

01:10:29.000 Exactly what we would have expected exploding mics and all that kind of stuff.

01:10:35.000 The medical examiner's report now confirms that.

01:10:38.000 Okay, so I think that's going to wrap it up for us today here.

01:10:41.000 Andrea, thank you so much for making your time.

01:10:43.000 I know you've been streaming all day and taking questions all day.

01:10:47.000 I want to give you a shout out to your socials here again, really quick.

01:10:53.000 Sorry, I don't have them pulled up, but I just want to make sure I reference them.

01:10:55.000 Andrea Burkhart, and that's B U R K H A R T, sub stack.com. 0.68

01:11:03.000 Check her out there.

01:11:04.000 And what's your X handle?

01:11:06.000 X handle is A Burkhart Law, and that's also on YouTube.

01:11:09.000 Okay, A Burkhart Law.

01:11:11.000 Thank you so much, Andrea.

01:11:12.000 Thank you for making the time for us.

01:11:13.000 We really appreciate it.

01:11:14.000 My pleasure.

01:11:15.000 All right.

01:11:16.000 Okay, excuse me.

01:11:18.000 We're going to be doing this every day that there is a preliminary hearing.

01:11:21.000 And just recapping the big takeaways and making sure that there is a.

01:11:26.000 We talk about a court record.

01:11:27.000 We want to make sure there is a factual record in the public and available to all of you as you navigate this alongside with us.

01:11:35.000 And we appreciate you joining us and we'll see you again tomorrow.

01:11:43.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - July 07, 2026

Tyler Robinson Hearing Aftermath: Day 1

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