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00:01:18.000Welcome to our special edition preliminary hearing recap that we're going to be doing every day to break down what happened in the preliminary hearing of Utah, State of Utah versus Tyler Robinson.
00:01:35.000And we've got myself, Blake Neff here, and now we have Joe Bob, which is.
00:01:50.000Joe Bob, just for the audience, you've been on the show before, but just in case people don't realize, you've been with Turning Point for years.
00:02:09.000And I think that's where I'm just going to quickly start.
00:02:11.000I have a whole breakdown of all the facts, and we have Graham Allen joining us, and then we have Andrea Burkhart, who's a legal commentator.
00:02:19.000She's going to join us for the second half of the hour.
00:02:24.000I can't stress to you enough how much this day has affected me, has affected Joe Bob, Blake, everybody in this office, everybody at Turning Point.
00:02:36.000It's so excruciating, actually, to have to be reliving all of this and to have it up front and in our faces again.
00:03:19.000One of those days where she could tell something was wrong.
00:03:22.000But it wasn't, you know, it was just this sinking feeling that you had.
00:03:28.000And I was there last week at HQ and we're talking with some people around there about what this was going to be.
00:03:36.000And same sinking feeling when I, you know, kind of realized the gravity of Erica and Charlie's parents being in the room and what they were going to have to see during this whole process that is, of course, necessary to get justice.
00:03:52.000But the very fact that you have to endure it doesn't make it better, doesn't make it good.
00:04:16.000Yeah, Blake, I know you've been sinking in just.
00:04:18.000This was a heavy day, but with the knowledge, this is day one of a preliminary hearing that we talked to various people.
00:04:24.000They said they think it'll go at least three days, it could go all five.
00:04:27.000And then that's the preliminary hearing.
00:04:29.000We'll talk to Andrew again and see what she thinks, but she says.
00:04:33.000The trial might not hit until 2028, and then who knows how long that will go, and we might have to sit through appeals for this.
00:04:39.000This is, we were getting a lot of well wishes.
00:04:42.000I know you were, I was, and what I was telling everyone, telling people who emailed, is this is, it's going to be a long process, and we are here to see it through all the way to the end.
00:06:55.000There's usually in a normal criminal trial, you have the right to confront your accusers.
00:07:00.000And so, a long established principle in our legal system, I don't know about those around the world, but certainly in ours, is you generally can't go, oh, this office, you know, a police officer will say, this person told me that.
00:07:11.000And in reality, you could bring that person in.
00:07:13.000And instead, you just have this secondary hearsay.
00:07:18.000That they heard something from someone while that guy's denying it and say, Well, we just believe this officer's telling the truth.
00:07:24.000And so, the example here where it's coming up, for example, is they asked one of the second witnesses today what was in the medical examiner's report.
00:07:33.000And he's just saying, Well, I saw this in the medical examiner's report.
00:07:36.000And that's a credible hearsay in the sense this is a police officer who's describing a document that he read while they were preparing this case.
00:07:45.000In the actual trial, we will be having the actual medical examiner on.
00:07:55.000But for the case of this sort of probable cause thing, it's totally acceptable for them to have a police officer say, We have this and we generally trust this person unless there's an obvious reason to believe the law.
00:08:06.000And Judge Graff has been very disciplined.
00:08:09.000He's sort of balls and strikes kind of guy.
00:08:12.000I think he's very cognizant of the fact that he doesn't want to make a misstep that could make it appealable or whatever, right?
00:08:19.000The defense has fought very hard to prevent cameras in the courtroom.
00:08:32.000And that was one of the big storylines today.
00:08:34.000Every single exhibit they would object to.
00:08:37.000So that's why we saw a whole lot of, I would say, theater, trial theater from the defense today regarding those objections.
00:08:44.000The judge has been very straightforward, balls and strikes, like I said.
00:08:47.000And it seems like the defense's strategy has been to blur the focus, right?
00:08:53.000They're delaying, they want to kind of slow things down, which is not surprising given everything that we've seen from this far.
00:09:01.000But You know, at least that's my view, right?
00:09:03.000That this blurring of the focus, so they can't lay out the details.
00:09:07.000So, as you as a watcher, and Joe Bob, I'd be curious your perspective, just watching this preliminary hearing, trying to sort of keep track of the details is difficult because it's bogged down in so much procedural back and forth.
00:09:19.000So, last week on the Turning Point Tonight show, we broke down to the best of my ability, right?
00:09:24.000I'm not an attorney, but the procedural process, kind of like what Blake had laid out, kind of what you guys have been talking about on the show pretty consistently.
00:09:33.000In that there are different procedural rules for the pretrial and the actual trial.
00:09:39.000All of these things, the defense seemed to be trying to add the actual trial to the pretrial, right?
00:09:51.000They tried to have all of the rights of the defendant that exist in the trial to the pretrial with just the constant objections over and over and over again.
00:10:00.000And I hope my terminology is correct there, but that's how I understood it.
00:10:06.000And I recognize people don't have, you know, the full day to sit here and watch this, but I would encourage people to watch a big chunk of it if they can, because what I saw as an observer was prudence and discernment from the judge.
00:10:22.000Every single thing he took it in, considered, decided whether or not it was going to get played for the courtroom and for the media, decided if that was, you know, good or bad, or, you know, obviously evidence admissible and inadmissible.
00:10:37.000And You really got to see the process of thought that goes into it.
00:10:43.000And again, I don't know why people would assume that it would be, but it was really good to see that reiteration of discernment on the bench to go, here's what we're considering.
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00:14:10.000And then the other big takeaway is Officer Bagley confirmed that the roof of UVU's Losey Center was accessible by a public stairway and testified that he climbed to the rooftop immediately after the shooting.
00:14:21.000There, he saw a red and black screwdriver.
00:14:24.000And a disturbance in the gravel, which he described as markings consistent with someone lying in the prone position with a line of sight to where Charlie was speaking.
00:14:32.000So I think those, from just an evidence standpoint, those were the big takeaways.
00:15:05.000Tyler Robinson was maybe six, seven feet in front of me the entire day.
00:15:14.000I've seen a lot of people recirculating an old clip on the internet of him laughing and things like that.
00:15:22.000What I can confirm, what I did see that all of us saw that was on that front row, especially, is Tyler Robinson was very, very active in wanting to see evidence.
00:15:34.000But when he would speak to, I saw the back of his head, when he would speak to his lawyer, I could see his lawyer's side profile and she was giggling and she was laughing.
00:15:45.000And so that was hard to see in the courtroom.
00:15:50.000A couple things I can put to bed, all this crap about Erica and Charlie's parents.0.52
00:15:56.000Not being on the same page or they don't like each other.1.00
00:16:03.000It was uh Erica, Charlie's parents uh, it was Jack Posobic me, Don jr, all in the front row the entire time.
00:16:12.000Uh when, when we all got went on recess and were in the holding room, Erica was with Charlie's parents the entire time.
00:16:20.000Charlie's parents were speaking to all of us and they were talking to all of us.
00:16:24.000So all this garbage that Erica and the wife of Charlie Kirk and his parents, that they are not on the same page with each other.1.00
00:16:36.000That's total lunacy, total garbage.0.97
00:16:40.000I've also seen a couple of things, again, that they took our phones from us, so I'm catching up to what the internet is saying.0.96
00:16:47.000I would encourage everybody to watch as much of the trial as they can, because what a lot of bad actors are doing is they're taking clips of them introducing one piece of evidence.
00:16:59.000For example, the gravel at the top of the building where the shot was taken.
00:17:04.000There's this, there's one picture that they put into evidence and they're like, it's kind of hard to see the impressions that you saw that day.
00:17:13.000And the officer says, yes, it's kind of hard to see the impressions I saw.
00:17:16.000Well, people were just clipping that.0.61
00:17:18.000And they're like, oh, this is a, this is a clown show.0.81
00:17:21.000Like like oh, just trust me bro, all this.
00:17:24.000But then the very next piece of evidence that they introduce is an even better picture showing obvious indentations of a grown male that was in a prone position to take a sniper style shot with a rifle.
00:17:41.000So I encourage as many people as possible to watch as much of the trial as they can.
00:17:47.000I would also say that if you're watching this and you're on a side that believes, and I said this on my show today, this is about getting justice for Charlie.
00:17:56.000But if you're on this friend's side that's all about these conspiracies and things, it appears to be the defense.
00:18:03.000That doesn't want any evidence seen by anyone in any way, shape, form, or fashion.
00:18:10.000It seems to be the defense that is against anything being admitted as evidence, being shown as evidence, all of those things.
00:18:19.000And so that was pretty shocking to me.
00:18:25.000You can't underscore that point enough, though, Graham, is that I saw the same thing on social media where people were like, oh, they don't want to show any evidence.
00:18:37.000The defense is the one pushing not to show evidence.
00:18:39.000The state has been consistent like, we want cameras, we want to show all the evidence.
00:18:43.000And every time the defense has come in with an objection about, oh, it can't be on that monitor or it can't be published, which I guess means visible in the courthouse because it hasn't been submitted as evidence, they're finding technicalities to sort of limit the publishing or exposure of said evidence.
00:19:01.000And it just should be said you know who?
00:19:03.000Someone was saying that today was the start of a show trial and.
00:19:07.000The real truth is, everything about today has indicated this is one of the most methodical criminal justice proceedings any of us have ever seen.
00:19:16.000It took us 10 months to get to this point of a preliminary hearing, something that is waived in a very large number of murder trials, something that happens within a handful of days in plenty of other, not just robberies, but murders, big cases like this one.
00:20:00.000He said, The defense's hearsay objections were legally ridiculous and summarily overruled by Judge Graff.
00:20:08.000The court was fully briefed on the matter in advance of the hearings and ruled, but the defense continues to raise this objection anyway.
00:20:17.000So that's like a third part, completely unrelated, but this is a guy that's a prosecutor and he was just like, Filling me in, and I thought, okay, that's interesting.
00:20:25.000And you were definitely go ahead, go ahead.
00:20:45.000And there were a couple of, you know, prior defense attorneys in there that, you know, we were able to have not in the court, obviously, when we were, you know, in recess or whatnot.
00:20:55.000you know, that would say that that's, you know, it's not a good sign.
00:20:59.000You know, obviously everyone's innocent until proven guilty.
00:21:02.000Obviously, that's the way our court system is done.
00:21:05.000But it's never a good sign when the defense is just stalling like that over and over.
00:21:10.000If I can talk about the video, if you would call it any type of, you know, small bump in the road, I want to put away any type of things because we were also briefed on this as well.
00:21:25.000The video is not dead that they wanted to submit into evidence that the judge said, well, you know, it's been enhanced or whatever it is, like zoomed in or circled around.
00:21:36.000Yeah, I want to get to actually, Graham, Graham, watch this.
00:21:39.000So we have this clip, and just it helps to kind of bring some of this home.
00:22:07.000This is a compilation video that was put together from a bunch of different sources by the county attorney's office.
00:22:16.000This individual did not create this compilation, can't testify to the accuracy of the actual materials that it was taken from, and furthermore, Mr. Olson himself is just referred to by Agent Hall.
00:22:38.000He specifically says people have altered these recordings.
00:22:42.000They've zoomed in when the actual recording isn't zoomed.
00:22:46.000They've added little circles to people they wanted you to pay attention to.
00:23:22.000The judge, what he did in that was he didn't have from the person on the state side who actually zoomed in in certain areas or put red circles around to make it more easy what you were seeing.
00:23:37.000It's kind of like telling John Madden back in the day that he.
00:23:39.000He manipulated the footage that he's replaying showing you.
00:23:50.000What they did is they used a John Madden style, exactly right, where he'd freeze frame the NFL clip and he'd circle, like, look what the ball's doing here, and it's going to shoot this way, and watch, they're going to move this way.
00:24:01.000So they were trying to spotlight different things they wanted to draw attention to.
00:24:35.000From my understanding, it was someone inside the state, you know, the prosecution's team that did it, but they just didn't have a signed I think they called it 1102 or something like that.
00:26:04.000So, one of the big social media clips that moving, I don't know, is the right word, but got a lot of attention was Judge Graff watching the explicit video and his reaction, which in Probably is way more tame than most people would react.
00:26:25.000One, were you in the courtroom for that?
00:26:27.000And two, can you describe what that was like watching those videos?
00:26:32.000We have that clip here, Graham, if you want me to show it.
00:27:04.000And so every one of the videos that were graphic in nature were admitted as evidence, but both the state and the defense did not want it to be seen publicly due to the graphic nature of it because we've all, well, the vast majority of people saw the horrific social media, you know.
00:27:33.000iPhone images of what happened to Charlie.
00:27:37.000But especially when the 4K videos were put in there, that was a tough moment.
00:28:16.000And so, you know, those of us that were in the rows, I mean, you know, the audio is playing and we all know exactly when it happened.
00:28:25.000So, I mean, you know, we've all heard the moment, the question Charlie was asked and his beginning to answer.
00:28:32.000And so, you know, I looked around, you know, kind of my left and my right and everybody kind of had their hand kind of clenched because we all knew exactly when.
00:28:52.000And so, his reaction is a real reaction.
00:28:58.000You mentioned you were looking around to people to your left and your right.
00:29:03.000I know that Erica and her family got the opportunity to leave during the demonstration of certain exhibits.
00:29:12.000Were they able to leave during that or were they still there?
00:29:15.000Because the judge was just like, how did that work?
00:29:17.000Yeah, so they briefed us on that when we were in a recess.
00:29:20.000That because, uh, but obviously Erica and Charlie's family did not want to see that, and so we knew that they were going to let us know when that moment was going to happen.
00:29:37.000And so, yes, Char or excuse me, Charlie, goodness, Erica and Charlie's family. left.
00:29:44.000And so the only people left on the very front row was Jack Posobic was on my left and Don Jr. and his wife were on my right.
00:29:55.000And that's all that was left on the front row when Erica and Charlie's family left.
00:30:01.000And then Brandon Tatum and others were behind us on the next row.
00:30:06.000So yes, they did get an opportunity to leave, but it was kind of a known leave because they didn't want to see that, nor should they have to.
00:30:49.000Yeah, so where they have us all entering in at, it's pretty locked down.
00:30:56.000There is a little bit of what looks like a parking structure up on top, and you have some news crews that are pointing down and things like that.
00:31:05.000It was mainly just media when we were walking in.
00:31:08.000I mean, there's a lot of videos on the internet of us walking into the courtroom and things like that.
00:31:16.000I didn't see any protesters per se in that exact moment.
00:31:21.000There were some people that were trying to get Don Jr. to comment and things, and he respectfully said, no, I'm here to support a friend.
00:31:29.000I'm not doing any on-the-record stuff and things like that, which I thought was very classy of him.
00:31:35.000He's simply there for Charlie and for Erica.
00:31:38.000And so I thought that that was a really big thing because it's not easy to sit in that courtroom all day and listen and just the mundane of all of it.
00:31:51.000There was another moment where that I saw some people chattering about online where, you know, Charlie's, either Erica and Charlie's parents or Charlie's parents got up abruptly and left or something like that.
00:32:05.000From what I understand, Charlie's mom got a nosebleed.
00:32:39.000The disconnect between real life and where the internet will go for it.
00:32:45.000That's one of the reasons we're doing this daily recap because I want people to have somewhere where they can just get the actual facts from the case.
00:32:52.000Graham and Joe Bob, I want to work you in here too.0.53
00:33:05.000And did you know which ones they were kind of?
00:33:08.000I didn't know who they were initially, but they were pointed out to me.
00:33:12.000So the way that we were lined up is it's not like the courtroom like you see on TV, you know, like where there's like two distinct sides and there's like this side and then that side.
00:33:25.000It was four rows horizontal to the actual courtroom that most people saw, you know, from the camera position.
00:33:34.000So, the front row, like I said, was Erica and Charlie's family.
00:33:39.000And then it was Jack Vasobic, me, Don Jr., his wife.
00:33:42.000The next row, Stacey Sheridan was in there, Brandon Tatum, several other people were on the back row.
00:33:49.000And then I believe Tyler Robinson's family was on the third row.
00:33:54.000And then that fourth row was for just some random public people that got a seat in there.
00:34:02.000How many people are we talking about, Graham?
00:35:51.000And then I said this on the show this morning when all this is said and done and justice has been served and all this, my biggest hope and prayer is that Charlie's legacy is what, you know, is the life he lived and not how he died, is my biggest hope and everything.
00:36:34.000But either way, Graham, I just want to finish with this and say thank you again.
00:36:40.000Means a lot to us on a very personal level, right?
00:36:43.000Like everybody's, you know, you got your show, we got ours and, and influencer, blah, blah, blah, all that stuff.
00:36:49.000No, like on a very personal level, it means the world to us that you were in there supporting Erica and, Rob and Kathy and the whole family.
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00:39:31.000Really, you've been a source of information for me too.
00:39:33.000You have a way of looking at things and insight because you've done this before.
00:39:38.000Big picture, what do you make of this?
00:39:40.000And then I want to get in on day one, and then I want to get into what we can expect tomorrow morning and coming up next based on the exhibit list that has been made public.
00:39:51.000Yeah, so, so far, there's nothing that's happened that has struck me as particularly surprising.
00:39:57.000Every jurisdiction has their own rules and their own ways of doing things.
00:40:01.000And so there can be a lot of variation in kind of the specifics of how things happen.
00:40:06.000But by and large, just in terms of what's being presented, how they're presenting it, The volume and nature of the objections that we're getting from the defense as well.
00:40:15.000These are all things that, to my view, as somebody who's handled these and similar kind of hearings before, appears to be going largely according to script, consistent with the expectations that the parties would have had for how a hearing like this is expected to go.
00:40:34.000I think the big question that a lot of people have, and Blake and I were debating it, and we were talking to some other people trying to figure out why.
00:41:00.000As always in a death penalty case, you just do expect to see a little bit more vigorous of a defense than you might in cases that don't have quite as much at stake.
00:41:11.000That said, it's always a bit of a strategy call and maybe to some extent a style issue as well.
00:41:18.000How attorneys decide to manage things like objections in a case.
00:41:23.000What we saw today was just repeated objections.
00:41:29.000There's already a standing objection on the record that was filed in writing, but the defense is taking the opportunity to reiterate that objection, explain it multiple times.
00:41:42.000And so it can perhaps come across as a bit repetitive to be hearing the same objection.
00:41:49.000Yeah, but can't that eventually sort of backfire if you start frustrating the judge?
00:41:53.000If you start sort of, I don't know, just becoming, well, it can't.
00:41:59.000It is a style choice to be aggressive like that that can be off putting.
00:42:03.000The risk is that if you simply flood the judge's attention with everything possible that you could raise as an objection, then you run the risk that when there's something really good and really, really strong, it's going to be lost in the fog of everything that you've already thrown at him.
00:42:22.000You know, oh, this time, you know, they really mean it, and there's really something substantive here.
00:42:28.000So, it is a little bit of a risky play.
00:42:30.000But just given their position and the fact that they do have an obligation to make the best record they can, looking down the road and anticipating future appeals and future post conviction processes to make sure that they're not waiving any possible objection that he could make at any point of this process, that's going to be a big driving factor for why they are behaving the way they are.
00:42:55.000And I do think it's interesting, especially if they try that.
00:42:58.000Strategy in a trial, which I know you've warned us could be as late as 2028, which I'm still like smarting from, to be perfectly honest.
00:43:07.000But if they try that in a jury trial, I can imagine that would be very frustrating for a jury.
00:43:13.000That would be very frustrating for the entire legal process, probably Judge Graff.
00:43:18.000So that's, I think that's important to kind of keep in mind.
00:43:21.000So I'll, I, we mentioned this in the first part of the hour, and I want to ask you this one question, then we'll get into the exhibit list and what we can expect next.
00:43:31.000The, I think the big bombshell today, if there was one, I certainly took note, is that the state is claiming that they have evidence of him, of Tyler Robinson, being on campus four times the day of September 10th two times in the morning, one time during the actual shooting, and then one time in the wee hours of the night that even bled into September 11th.
00:43:53.000But then there was this controversy about the video, and Judge actually did sustain that objection because the video had been altered.
00:44:04.000I know that the evidence is going to be resubmitted tomorrow morning.
00:44:07.000They're going to submit apparently both the raw and the edited.
00:44:10.000It's not AI edited, it's not enhanced, it's not changed.
00:44:13.000They just, John Madden style, zoomed in, drew circles around certain things to draw your attention to what they wanted you to pay attention to.
00:44:21.000Well, I perceived a lot of this as a little bit of a feeling out by everybody to get a sense of what the parties are going to try, what types of limits, rules they're going to try to impose, and then what the judge's tolerances is going to be.
00:44:39.000So, what the prosecution was trying to do is really not unusual.
00:44:44.000It's trying to prepare an exhibit in a way that maximizes its helpfulness.
00:44:49.000It's very common, particularly with things like video evidence, that there's a lot of dead time and you don't necessarily want to watch the whole thing.
00:45:00.000And you're not even sure where your eye is supposed to be looking.
00:45:02.000Sometimes, if it's grainy or whatever, those little aids can help, like, be like, hey, look here because this is where the suspect walks through the frame.
00:45:09.000You know, that to me makes a lot of sense.
00:45:11.000And, but they're saying it adds bias or something?
00:45:16.000The only, the sole issue that came up really with this is that because they didn't have the person who actually prepared those edits available to testify or, you know, submit a statement that explains what they did and exactly what the alterations were, that they weren't sufficiently authenticated for purposes of admission in court.
00:45:37.000They are basically resolving that problem by, as you said, their intention is now to just.
00:45:43.000Present the unedited compilation of the different video clips that they collected.
00:45:49.000And so then they'll be able to show the judge that, and that will enable him to then see when he looks at the edited version what exactly they did to revise it and to draw it to his attention.
00:46:01.000So there won't be any confusion about what was the raw video and what was added by somebody for editorial purposes.
00:46:24.000And let me explain to, and I was going to explain this, but let me explain why.
00:46:28.000Judge, our intent is to prepare an original version of the video that has been in dispute today without the circles, without the blur, and without the zooming in.
00:46:41.000And our intent is to introduce that tomorrow as a different exhibit.
00:46:47.000And we just can't prepare that in the next hour or so.
00:46:49.000For today, Agent Nahal, you may step down, and we'll resume with your testimony tomorrow morning.
00:46:56.000So that just to sort of bring it home, I want to take our attention to the exhibit list that's been made public.
00:47:03.000And if I'm reading this, right, so we got four witnesses that they're planning to bring up.
00:47:08.000The first two we've now met, we're halfway through with the second.
00:47:13.000It seems like we're about to enter the phase of the preliminary hearing where we start getting into forensic, we start getting into DNA, and probably, maybe we might see that video from Lance Twiggs, who's Tyler Robinson's lover.
00:47:31.000Or do you think that the defense is slowing things down to the extent that we're not going to get that far tomorrow?
00:47:37.000Where I expect we're going to go, it appears to me that the state is telling basically a chronological story.
00:47:44.000They're putting this in order in terms of the timeline.
00:47:48.000If that's correct, then we won't probably get the forensics until close to the end.
00:47:52.000And what we would instead get is leading into the process of we've started the identification of Tyler Robinson as the suspect.
00:48:01.000We've introduced the topic of his surrender, but we haven't tied those pieces together how Tyler Robinson became known to the police, how he came to be in custody, how some of these pieces of evidence were obtained, you know, how they were able to get Tyler's DNA in order to do this comparison in the first place.
00:48:20.000Those are all going to follow on the story of the identification, the surrender, and then the arrest and taking into custody, seizure of additional evidence.
00:49:55.000I mean, I would think maybe that could be tomorrow, but that really makes sense to me what you just said.
00:49:59.000Although they seem to have followed this significantly through chronological order almost of practically the order they got the information in, because they started with you're at the scene, these are videos that we obtained at the scene.
00:50:12.000And then here's the video we obtained from UVU, and then eventually.
00:50:16.000That's actually an interesting wrinkle there.
00:50:19.000When you say chronological order, Andrea, do you mean the order by which they got the evidence, or is it as the events took place that day on the 11th and so forth?
00:50:31.000Yeah, no, I think that's a good correction by Blake.
00:50:35.000It's the story of the investigation, because that's really what the probable cause hearing is focused on did the investigation produce reasonable suspicion to believe that this person likely committed this crime?
00:50:48.000And so the story of the investigation is kind of a Common way to frame that particular issue for the court to understand what police learned when they learned it, how it fit into their investigation, and then from that, what are the reasonable inferences that you can draw at each step along the way.
00:51:05.000So, because this is kind of a check on the police and the prosecutor's reasoning in how they conducted the investigation, the chronological story of how they conducted that investigation just tends to be an easy way to follow that.
00:51:20.000We asked Jay Town in the Earlier, but I wonder if you're going to give the same answer as him.
00:51:26.000I just asked so we have the statement, this interview they did with Twigs.
00:51:55.000You know, go to the prediction markets on this one.
00:51:59.000Just based on what we've seen from Judge Graff so far, I would expect that we are going to at least hear it, possibly see it as well.
00:52:07.000But the reason I say that is because while he has certainly shielded some of the exhibits from public view so far, those have largely been grounded in concerns about the dignity of the victim and just kind of the common sense.
00:52:24.000There are certain things that don't need to be on TV blasted everywhere.
00:52:28.000For everybody to see for all eternity.
00:53:10.000We do a lot of individual questioning and things like that to root out people that have either too firm opinions about the case or just know too much about it and can't put that aside.
00:53:22.000But also because, you know, this is, I guess, the upside of the trial potentially being so far down the road is that the prejudice has time to mitigate.
00:53:32.000You know, it's not like we're having this hearing and then we're going to go have.
00:53:54.000So the way this works, just to bring everybody back into sort of a procedural mindset, the state goes first.
00:54:03.000They've allotted five days for this, but it This could, and it's like four and a half because Wednesday is scheduled to be a half day.
00:54:09.000So, if you're just looking at how much progress we're making, do you see the state going up until taking up all that time until Wednesday and then the defense taking Thursday, Friday?
00:54:20.000Or are you getting a read of how this is going to work?
00:54:22.000Because again, the state presents, the defense is going to cross examine, then the defense gets to call their witnesses and the state will cross examine.
00:54:32.000So, just want to make sure everybody's still tracking with us on the actual TikTok here.
00:54:38.000Yeah, I think that's probably in about the ballpark that I would expect the state to be done at.
00:54:43.000This rate probably by the end of Wednesday or maybe partway into the day on Thursday.
00:54:48.000It just depends on some of the details of how these things flesh out.
00:54:53.000We are expecting the three forensic experts that the defense wants to call.
00:54:59.000The state did not object to them doing that.
00:55:01.000So these are going to be analysts likely from the FBI or the ATF.
00:55:07.000And so I'm not really expecting that to be extensive.
00:55:12.000They're not going to offer the same kind of like.
00:55:15.000Long background testimony that we're getting from these witnesses, like Officer Bagley and Agent Hull, who participated extensively in different parts of the investigation.
00:55:26.000So there's just a lot of time and material for them to cover.
00:55:30.000The forensics tend to be much more discreet, and so they do tend to go a little bit faster for that reason.
00:55:52.000The issue of the defense, it was actually the defense that was trying to block the presentation of the evidence, not the state, not the prosecution.
00:56:00.000And just to be expressly clear, we are in favor of max transparency here.
00:56:06.000And then, you know, the online chatter about the compilation video that's going to be resubmitted tomorrow.
00:56:13.000If you're now, I had, there's a, I have all these lawyers in my life that I didn't realize that are like texting me out of the blue.
00:56:20.000I'm like, oh, hi, nice, you know, I forgot about you from high school.
00:56:23.000School and you know, like there, but I had another one of these guys text me, and he was basically saying that he thinks his basic understanding of the defenses tactic here is sort of the dog that didn't bark, right?
00:56:38.000It's almost like a tell that they don't have a better defense strategy, that they're going straight obstruction.
00:56:43.000I mean, am I reading too much into that, or is this person who gave me that take?
00:56:52.000You're the bearer of good and bad news, you call balls and strikes, sure.
00:56:56.000Well, look, I did this job for almost 20 years.
00:57:00.000So everybody has a little bit of a different style and a little bit of a different approach, but there are some pretty common grounds, particularly with the folks that I relate to, which is the professional public defenders here on this defense team.
00:57:14.000And so there are certain things that I expect to be the case given that.
00:57:19.000I expect that if there is a strong case for factual innocence, the defense is going to be asserting that.
00:57:25.000They are going to assert it early, they are going to assert it often.
00:57:32.000It's normal that anytime somebody is charged with a crime, there's a high volume of information from the state side, from the prosecution side, about why the charges are being laid.
00:57:45.000But the defense side often doesn't get heard.
00:57:48.000And so you have something that corrects some of that information.
00:57:52.000You're going to bring that out often to try to correct some of that just public opinion, public impression about the case.
00:58:00.000Make sure that they understand there's more to the story here.
00:58:04.000Also, just seeing what has been focused on in the litigation that's happened in the trial so far, some things stand out to me.
00:58:12.000One is the absence of discovery disputes.
00:58:16.000One of the online chatter things that happens periodically, there have been some.
00:58:22.000Some statements made about the record about what the defense has or has not received through the discovery process.
00:58:29.000The defense has, by their own account, received a massive volume of information, hundreds and hundreds of terabytes of information, raw video data, raw cell phone data, digital data, a lot of this type of information.
00:58:44.000And so there may be things around the edges that the defense is unhappy with, but so far, none of that has risen to the level.
00:58:52.000Of actually moving for a court order to compel that it be produced to you.
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01:00:47.000Yeah, there can be a lot of different reasons why you might be asking for something.
01:00:51.000And there's different levels of entitlement to it.
01:00:55.000Utah rule what you're entitled to as a mandatory disclosure is very specifically defined.
01:01:00.000But there are typically always catch alls where if, if, It's necessary in the interest of justice, in the interest of fairness, or things like that, the judge can order the prosecution to have to provide it.
01:01:12.000There's always complications in cases where you have a state and federal law enforcement involved in a state prosecution.
01:01:21.000This is a whole complicated issue because of the Supremacy Clause of our Constitution, under which federal law enforcement, they're not bound by orders of a state court.
01:01:33.000They can't be subpoenaed into a state.
01:01:35.000They can't be ordered to produce documents by a state court.
01:01:39.000And so they have their own processes that you have to work through in order to get access to discovery from federal investigators.
01:01:47.000This is something that criminal defense attorneys are very familiar with and have to navigate with some frequency, but it's not commonly known by the public what that looks like.
01:01:58.000Part of it can be things like we already know one of the requests that they've made is they want the source code for a proprietary piece of software that was used to calculate the, I'm going to use some technical language here, the deconvolution of the, the, The DNA mixture.
01:02:20.000I don't know which example exactly, but some of the DNA that was recovered in this case was a complex mixture.
01:02:26.000They have to analyze it statistically.
01:03:02.000And so just leave it to the internet, by the way, to take the court's inability to compel a foreign entity, a foreign private company, to give away its bread and butter, its moneymaker to the state of Utah or the defense of Tyler Robinson.
01:03:19.000But that'll become the next thing people run with.
01:03:57.000There's a massive amount of investigation that the defense is going to need to do.
01:04:01.000And there's a massive amount of litigation that is already being foreshadowed with things like the scientific evidence and stuff like that.
01:04:08.000And this is all going to be very time consuming.
01:04:15.000Terrible, terrible update, but I appreciate the candor.
01:04:19.000Andrea, there have been reports from like News Nation has a reporter in there that Tyler Robinson, Graham actually, Graham Sot.
01:04:28.000So, first-hand account from him as well, Graham Allen did, that Tyler Robinson and I guess his lawyer, Nestor, were laughing and that she was laughing.
01:04:40.000And I've seen that go pretty far and wide.
01:05:18.000Like, this is a really somber thing that's happening here.
01:05:22.000Yeah, I can absolutely appreciate that perspective.
01:05:25.000And I think this might be one of those situations where there is a disconnect between the way that the attorney and the defendant are encountering the Process and the way observers and even other participants in the courtroom are.
01:05:38.000The defense lawyers' primary concern, number one, is their client's well being, period.
01:05:44.000Whether he's guilty, whether he's innocent, that's what their primary concern is.
01:05:49.000And so, court, for the best of us, is a stressful process.
01:05:56.000And this is a young man who doesn't appear to have any kind of criminal history.
01:06:01.000This is a new experience for him, it's very high profile.
01:06:04.000They're going to want to put him at ease.
01:06:06.000That's going to be one of their big concerns that he is not there racked with anxiety, that he understands the process, that he's Comfortable with what is going on.
01:06:21.000And I think if they were thinking about it through that filter of what is it going to look like to the cameras watching, they might behave different.
01:06:30.000But I don't think that is their primary consideration here.
01:06:35.000And if that means adding some levity, some dark humor to the situation, Lord knows they are not the only ones in this whole process that have had to do that.
01:07:22.000Blake, Andrea, any final thoughts of things that we should be considering as we move into tomorrow and then we'll wrap this up?
01:07:29.000I am just continuing to expect more of the same.
01:07:33.000This has been a relatively organized process, just fairly simple in terms of the rulings and the types of objections and things like that.
01:07:44.000There have been a little bit of bumps in the road to sort out with things like is the camera going to get to show the exhibits to those of us at home and things like that.
01:07:53.000But that's normal to work through some of those growing pains.
01:07:57.000And so now that everybody's on the same page about what the expectations are, I think we can expect a little bit more smooth sailing from here.
01:08:15.000And what kind of calculation is there either way?
01:08:19.000Yeah, that's actually a great question.
01:08:21.000And so part of the reason why I believe they didn't is because in Utah, it's not entirely up to them.
01:08:28.000The prosecutor has a say in it as well.
01:08:30.000There is some case law out of Utah that recognizes that the preliminary hearing is also a right that the state has to present the basis of its case and its charging decision to the public.
01:08:41.000So, had the prosecutor agreed to waive, then we would be having potentially a different conversation.
01:08:48.000But strategically, why people often do choose to waive it is because of what we're seeing.
01:09:33.000I just, as you said, like the big things we learned today, I feel sometimes it's good to take a step back because we've heard so many insane things.
01:10:07.000And we have evidence that Tyler Robinson had been on the scene and fled the scene.
01:10:13.000And Low, they say we have the camera footage that says he was on the scene multiple times.
01:10:17.000We're just getting exactly what we expected, and that's what we wanted to see.
01:10:20.000Yeah, and I got underscored as well that we got the medical examiner's reference to it that it was death by a rifle or a gunshot wound to the ground.
01:10:29.000Exactly what we would have expected exploding mics and all that kind of stuff.
01:10:35.000The medical examiner's report now confirms that.
01:10:38.000Okay, so I think that's going to wrap it up for us today here.
01:10:41.000Andrea, thank you so much for making your time.
01:10:43.000I know you've been streaming all day and taking questions all day.
01:10:47.000I want to give you a shout out to your socials here again, really quick.
01:10:53.000Sorry, I don't have them pulled up, but I just want to make sure I reference them.
01:10:55.000Andrea Burkhart, and that's B U R K H A R T, sub stack.com.0.68