The Charlie Kirk Show - Tyler Robinson Hearing Aftermath: Day 2

00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.

00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.

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00:00:49.000 Here we go.

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00:01:17.000 All right.

00:01:17.000 Welcome, everybody.

00:01:19.000 We are live here for our special day two of the State of Utah versus Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing.

00:01:27.000 We've got so much to get to.

00:01:29.000 We've got myself, obviously, Blake, Brandon Tatum, Officer Brandon Tatum, and Joe Bob Alst.

00:01:37.000 There you can see him right there.

00:01:39.000 Gentlemen, thank you so much for coming and joining us.

00:01:42.000 Brandon, I know you were in the courthouse all today.

00:01:45.000 I can't wait to dive in and get your POV.

00:01:48.000 I want to set this up just really quickly for our audience before we get into it.

00:01:52.000 The day two was, I think, an absolute bombshell of a day.

00:01:58.000 There were multiple aspects of today that were critically important for the state to establish probable cause, which again is the standard in a preliminary hearing to take it.

00:02:08.000 To a full trial.

00:02:10.000 Okay.

00:02:11.000 The morning started off huge.

00:02:13.000 And gentlemen, this is where we're going to start.

00:02:15.000 We left off last night where they were trying to submit this.

00:02:19.000 The state was trying to submit this video compilation and they had sort of a John Madden style version of it that they were not allowed to do.

00:02:26.000 But this morning they got the compilation in.

00:02:28.000 It was more of the raw footage version of it.

00:02:31.000 But it was huge, huge, huge, huge.

00:02:35.000 There was now, we've established that Tyler Robinson was on campus, the UVU campus, four times.

00:02:43.000 Twice in the morning, then during the actual shooting, and then once in the evening that actually bled into the early hours of September 11th.

00:02:54.000 Officer Tatum, I want to start with you, sir.

00:02:57.000 What was that like watching that footage and hearing for the first time four times on the campus of UVU?

00:03:04.000 Yeah, I can say thanks for having me on.

00:03:06.000 I can say it was an incredible relief that we can match up common sense with evidence and get it presented in court as a probable cause effort.

00:03:15.000 And because a lot of people are saying that, well, not a lot of people, I think people without a connected brainstem are saying that Tyler Robinson wasn't even on the campus whatsoever.

00:03:24.000 And obviously, we see him on camera verified.

00:03:28.000 He was even stopped by law enforcement at 12 30 a.m. on the 11th, where they identified the vehicle and they identified him as a person driving the vehicle.

00:03:36.000 Then they compiled that and compared that to some of the videos that they had from previous days or the previous day.

00:03:44.000 And it's clear.

00:03:45.000 That Tyler Roberts was the one driving the car on campus, even though he's not a student on campus.

00:03:49.000 He has no reason to be there.

00:03:50.000 He lived probably 200 miles away.

00:03:52.000 So it was damning evidence for the defense team.

00:03:56.000 Yeah, and.

00:03:57.000 Which they themselves were aware of.

00:03:59.000 Yeah, this is.

00:04:00.000 That's the other part here.

00:04:01.000 The first hour of today was back and forth where they basically were, again, were arguing can we please not show this sequence of video, even the unedited version?

00:04:10.000 Can we not show it because there is a quote, a realistic likelihood of prejudice to Mr. Robinson's right to a fair trial?

00:04:19.000 That basically, this video getting out there would be so viral, so widely seen, it would just make it too difficult for Robinson to have an untainted jury someday.

00:04:29.000 Yeah.

00:04:30.000 Well, that, I mean, as soon as this went out, it went viral all over.

00:04:34.000 Joe Bob.

00:04:36.000 What did you see from your perch as soon as that video evidence was made public and was actually broadcast, too, to Judge Tony Graff's credit?

00:04:45.000 Yeah, so to back up to the kind of procedural part of it, there was obviously arguing over whether or not this should be shown.

00:04:53.000 And it was interesting to see, I think he's an attorney representing the media side of it saying, hey, well, if Judge Graff is going to make a decision on whether this is going to proceed to trial, everybody needs to see what he sees, unless, of course, obviously it's graphic.

00:05:08.000 That way, so they, if he makes an assessment, when he makes an assessment, people can believe that assessment, which is an interesting dynamic in the courtroom.

00:05:16.000 Obviously, we're all grateful that this footage is now out and public.

00:05:21.000 In terms of the internet reaction, it was huge.

00:05:26.000 Like everybody I knew shared at least some version of one of the several videos that came out, and the normal people reacted like, yeah, this kind of seems like something we knew, something we knew was coming, and now it's here.

00:05:42.000 And then you've got, you know, 2% of the population who then decided to take it and run a different direction.

00:05:48.000 Well, but, Like, okay, well, there's nothing you can do to please those people.

00:05:53.000 But overall, this, as Brandon was saying, kind of put to bed a lot of the, I don't even know what to call it, the craziness that was out there.

00:06:04.000 Tyler Robinson wasn't even on the campus.

00:06:07.000 Okay.

00:06:08.000 Thankfully, we finally have footage now to make sure that that gets put to rest.

00:06:14.000 All right.

00:06:15.000 So I totally agree.

00:06:17.000 There's still going to be, you know, theories that emerge that are, you know, I would say divergent from what the state is posting.

00:06:26.000 We're seeing those online.

00:06:28.000 Brandon, what was it like in the courtroom when that was happening?

00:06:32.000 It felt like there's been a couple instances where I've seen Judge Graff actually get a little bit.

00:06:39.000 You can see his patience is wearing thin.

00:06:41.000 He's very good at keeping a deadpan presentation, but you could see there were a couple moments.

00:06:47.000 And then finally, he rules on this.

00:06:48.000 What was it like inside the courtroom when that was happening?

00:06:52.000 Well, for me, it was an incredible relief.

00:06:55.000 I think I can echo the sentiment of most people that's on the Charlie Kirk side, is that initially it was questionable whether or not they were going to get this amount of evidence or this type of evidence into the trial.

00:07:07.000 But towards the end of the day, yesterday, we kind of knew that if we prepared it right, the evidence would be admissible.

00:07:14.000 But it was a sigh of relief, and especially because we were able to, you know, I think it was a give or take, because it was a sigh of relief because we were able to get the information in.

00:07:21.000 Therefore, the world can see that Tyler Roberts was, it's evidence that he was on campus.

00:07:25.000 But the thing that was a little disappointing in part was that there was the other variation of the video that had some circles and zooms and blurs on it that I think would have been more appropriate for the audience at large.

00:07:38.000 You know, people in the courtroom, we could see what was going on.

00:07:41.000 We knew what we were looking at.

00:07:42.000 I mean, it's pretty obvious.

00:07:43.000 But to the public, with that video being displayed the way it was, it's not very easy to see unless you zoom in.

00:07:50.000 So the video that the judge allowed to be admissible in court but not viewed by the public.

00:07:56.000 Was a video that I think would have been a lot easier for people to digest online.

00:08:01.000 But overall, I think it was incredibly powerful, and I think it was a sigh of relief that things were going in the right direction for the Charlie Kirk team.

00:08:12.000 I saw that you posted some kind of selfie videos, Brandon.

00:08:16.000 I don't know if those are on break or whatever during today in the middle of the different breaks and the action.

00:08:25.000 But you were talking about.

00:08:27.000 This theory of like the patsy theory, and you were talking about uh, could other people have been involved, and that we're still kind of dealing with this notion of.

00:08:38.000 I think you know, this is coming from Candace that you know, she doesn't even believe that he was on campus that day, and she doesn't believe that this guy was the right height or whatever.

00:08:46.000 Let's go ahead and play this clip and I'll have you respond.

00:08:48.000 34.

00:08:48.000 I mean, who do you think is behind this?

00:08:51.000 I don't think Tyler Robinson was there.

00:08:53.000 You don't think he was there?

00:08:56.000 I think he's a total patsy.

00:08:57.000 I think they get lookalikes and they got everybody wearing the same outfit.

00:09:00.000 I think he played a role.

00:09:02.000 And I believe that what he did was he picked up clothes and he dumped them behind the Dairy Queen.

00:09:09.000 I think he had a role.

00:09:13.000 What do you make of that?

00:09:16.000 Well, I think people should be able to digest this information and say if a person is going to say he wasn't even there, he was a patsy, and there's no evidence whatsoever presented to back that claim up, then you should probably question where the person is getting their information from.

00:09:33.000 It is clear as the noonday sun, he was on campus.

00:09:36.000 Four times, and for him being a body double or something like that, even the defense isn't arguing this.

00:09:43.000 This is the thing that people need to understand is that if how is somebody who's not associated with the case, has no investigative skills, is not investigating anything, is you know, any substantive thing, um, going to argue something that the defense isn't even arguing.

00:09:57.000 They're not arguing that Tyler Robinson wasn't on campus, they're not arguing against that.

00:10:02.000 You know, the funny thing that I found in this trial, Brandon, that's such a good point, Brandon.

00:10:06.000 Another thing is, as well, is that the prosecution is saying Tyler Robinson is here.

00:10:12.000 Tyler Robinson did this.

00:10:14.000 This is Tyler Robinson on campus.

00:10:15.000 And the defense isn't even objecting to it because you would think that the defense will object to it because it's still a probable cause hearing.

00:10:22.000 They haven't determined that they have probable cause to believe yet that Tyler Robinson is, in fact, that suspect.

00:10:28.000 But the defense isn't even objecting to the prosecution claiming this is Tyler Robinson.

00:10:33.000 He did this, he did that, he walked here.

00:10:35.000 And I'll tell you something else that the defense messed up on.

00:10:39.000 Because they're not doing an adequate job when it comes to this, is that she tried to be impartial when she said a suspect jumps off of the roof.

00:10:47.000 Then she says, and then he did this.

00:10:50.000 It's like, well, wait a minute.

00:10:51.000 I thought you were articulating that this is a common and impartial person.

00:10:55.000 How do you know if it's a male or female?

00:10:56.000 None of these things have been presented yet.

00:10:58.000 Why are you saying he?

00:11:00.000 It's because they know for a fact that it was Tyler Robinson.

00:11:02.000 And at least I think they believe it was Tyler Robinson.

00:11:05.000 And those things are being brought up in court.

00:11:07.000 I encourage people to look at the evidence.

00:11:11.000 Quit listening to people online, especially those who do not have law enforcement experience or experience doing investigations, or those who won't even interview people with experience.

00:11:20.000 You have to put those things together.

00:11:21.000 So listen to what's going on in the hearing.

00:11:23.000 Make the determination on your own, but it has to be rooted in facts and it has to be rooted in evidence.

00:11:30.000 I think what we'll see, we've seen it the last few days and we will see it in the weeks, months, potentially years to come, is that people who are committed to this line of reasoning that Robinson is a patsy, that Robinson wasn't there, that Robinson, that No one fired a shot from the top of that building.

00:11:47.000 I don't think they're really motivated by believing a particular source.

00:11:50.000 I think they're motivated, frankly, by malice.

00:11:54.000 They want to believe a certain line and they don't, they genuinely don't care what the evidence is.

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00:13:15.000 I wanted to flag another thing that was very strong besides the four times on campus.

00:13:20.000 I think this gets at the crux of why we can be so confident in this case that they actually asked Investigator Hull, Did you guys have a suspect in this case?

00:13:31.000 Until you got news that someone had turned himself in.

00:13:34.000 And he said the answer is no.

00:13:35.000 In fact, I think we didn't get a chance to play that earlier.

00:13:38.000 Let's play it now.

00:13:39.000 They're asking about this.

00:13:40.000 This is clip 17.

00:13:42.000 And isn't it fair to say that as of the moment that Tyler Robinson voluntarily surrendered to authorities in Washington County, as of that moment, you all did not know who the shooter was?

00:13:56.000 Is that right?

00:13:58.000 We had identified a person of interest, but we did not specifically know who the shooter was at that time.

00:14:03.000 Okay.

00:14:07.000 And you became aware that Mr. Robinson was voluntarily surrendering.

00:14:13.000 How?

00:14:13.000 How did you become aware of that?

00:14:15.000 That information came originally, I believe, from the Washington County Sheriff to the administration at the control center at the university on the evening of the investigation, or the second evening of the investigation.

00:14:30.000 So that just lays it out.

00:14:31.000 They did not, he didn't get arrested because they'd identified him.

00:14:36.000 Through a story we've already heard that his parents became suspicious.

00:14:40.000 They brought in a friend, I believe they said it was a scoutmaster of his who had law enforcement, former sheriff's deputy.

00:14:46.000 Something like that.

00:14:47.000 They loop him in into the part of the process and he turns himself in.

00:14:51.000 He calls and said, Hey, if he turns himself in peacefully, can we do it that way?

00:14:57.000 They agreed.

00:14:58.000 He goes and turns himself in.

00:14:59.000 And they didn't, they had their command center at the university did not know.

00:15:05.000 They had a person of interest.

00:15:06.000 Presumably they'd.

00:15:07.000 Identified this person they'd seen on cameras, so they were releasing photos.

00:15:10.000 But I think my interpretation of that was they did not have a name, they didn't have a name, they didn't have a particular person they were on a manhunt for.

00:15:18.000 And then they learned that he had voluntarily turned himself in.

00:15:21.000 And that's the defense, that's the defense attorney saying that Tyler Robinson turned himself in.

00:15:25.000 And that's another thing that these people online have tried to deny ever happened.

00:15:31.000 Yeah, this is incredibly damning to the defense.

00:15:36.000 When you have no idea who the person is, why would a person that had nothing to do with this?

00:15:42.000 Voluntarily turn himself in.

00:15:44.000 It's not like they had his name, right?

00:15:46.000 It's not like they said, Tyler Robinson did it.

00:15:48.000 We're looking for this guy.

00:15:49.000 And then he said, okay, okay, y'all got me.

00:15:51.000 I'm going to turn myself in without incident.

00:15:53.000 No, this person voluntarily said, I am surrendering, taking responsibility for killing Charlie Kirk.

00:16:03.000 Like, I don't understand how anybody's still questioning whether or not this boy is involved in this.

00:16:08.000 He voluntarily did it.

00:16:10.000 This flies in the face of the theory that he's somehow being used by somebody else.

00:16:16.000 If somebody turned him in, meaning somebody snitched and said, hey, it was him, and they went and picked him up, and it happened that way, then I can see somebody saying he's a patsy or something.

00:16:24.000 But why would your parents who love you, presumably, I see them in the courtroom, and they go, I'm just going to make this up.

00:16:33.000 I'm going to act like my son did this heinous crime that's going to put him in a bad light for the rest of his life.

00:16:39.000 It's going to go down in history if he's found guilty that he killed one of the most incredible men to ever live in the United States of America.

00:16:48.000 And you're telling me that parents just turn him in because one day they just got a wild hair and thought it'd be cool to turn their son in for this.

00:16:54.000 And he could be put to death over this.

00:16:57.000 I think the case is closed on that. 0.90

00:16:58.000 Absolutely.

00:16:59.000 And, Joe Bob, I want to work you in here in just a second.

00:17:01.000 But what we're talking about, I think, is a really important vein.

00:17:05.000 And that is what the defense has already just sort of admitted to that Tyler Robinson turned himself in.

00:17:12.000 You know, it's like they, it's the dog that didn't bark kind of thing.

00:17:16.000 You know, this is what's interesting.

00:17:20.000 There was an analyst on Fox News who said it was a Mount Everest amount of evidence presented against Tyler Robinson.

00:17:27.000 And these are people that know.

00:17:29.000 Prosecutions that no criminal defense and prosecution.

00:17:32.000 So, but it's crazy because, like, what else is the defense not saying, right?

00:17:38.000 They're not saying anything about exploding mics.

00:17:40.000 They're not saying anything about Egyptian planes.

00:17:42.000 They're not saying anything about Mossad.

00:17:44.000 They're not saying anything about regicide.

00:17:46.000 They're not saying anything about any of that stuff.

00:17:50.000 So, I just, I just like to our point here, kind of like keeping us focused on what the evidence actually is saying to us.

00:17:58.000 Now, I think I have more I want to say, but I.

00:18:02.000 I was going to work in at Joe Bob here.

00:18:04.000 Joe Bob.

00:18:05.000 Well, I don't want to jump ahead too far in the day, but there's the commentary that I saw online was when they got to the DNA portion of it, and the examiner there wouldn't say, well, definitive this, definitive that.

00:18:22.000 When in actuality, it's US DOJ policy that examiners don't use definitive language when presenting DNA evidence and specifically in a pretrial.

00:18:34.000 And to that point, on the crazy side, the word show trial has been thrown around.

00:18:43.000 If this were a show trial, why would any of the evidence be inconclusive?

00:18:48.000 Okay.

00:18:50.000 Wouldn't all of that be tied up?

00:18:52.000 And also, if it's all a lie, if all of this stuff is made up, then you can't use it as your argument.

00:18:59.000 You can't use the perceived inconclusivity as part of your argument.

00:19:04.000 So, The whole thing crumbles in the conspiratorial mind.

00:19:08.000 And, you know, I pulled up a Bible verse here that's, I'm sure, been referenced a number of times.

00:19:13.000 This is 2 Timothy 3.

00:19:17.000 Beware of the worms who gain control over gullible women who are loaded down with sins and swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

00:19:28.000 And isn't that exactly what we are seeing in real time?

00:19:32.000 Just, oh, nothing is ever enough.

00:19:34.000 Okay, so the DNA evidence, the video evidence, The admission of guilt, all of these things, it's all fake.

00:19:42.000 I love that you brought this up, Joe Bob.

00:19:44.000 I love that you brought this up.

00:19:46.000 And Officer Tatum, I'm going to appeal to your experience as a police officer here.

00:19:52.000 A lot has been made about this ring camera footage that shows Tyler Robbins' car going in front of it.

00:19:58.000 And I guess the owner of the house remembers somebody bald with three people driving the car and with three people in it or something to that effect.

00:20:06.000 So everybody's saying, oh, see, it wasn't Tyler driving it or whatever.

00:20:11.000 But the ring camera shows what actually happened, and that's that the car was driving by the house.

00:20:16.000 So explain the difference between witness.

00:20:20.000 Eyewitness testimony, recollections, you know, the human frailty of memory versus the video evidence pulled from that ring camera.

00:20:28.000 Well, thank you for going to me with this one.

00:20:31.000 But I think that people have to understand that they're looking at the totality of evidence.

00:20:37.000 And in an actual trial, it's beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:20:41.000 So there is a burden that you have to prove that's beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:20:44.000 So you put all the evidence together, and this is why they don't just talk to the people that live in the house and get their written statements.

00:20:51.000 That's why they have a video.

00:20:53.000 Because sometimes people in a haste or people could be misidentifying certain things.

00:20:58.000 That's why you can't go on their testimony alone either.

00:21:01.000 You have to look at the video and say, okay, now we get what they have said.

00:21:04.000 This is their ring camera, but what do we actually see?

00:21:07.000 There are people that can look at, we can all, all of us can look at the same person and we may get their height different.

00:21:12.000 You go, hey man, I think that dude is 6'3.

00:21:14.000 Somebody say 6'1.

00:21:15.000 Somebody say 5'10.

00:21:16.000 You take the totality of evidence and you put it together and build a testimony of what happens.

00:21:23.000 You don't take little parts here, parts there, and try to make a whole case on it.

00:21:27.000 They're going to look at the vehicle as one element of placing him on campus.

00:21:33.000 But they have a plethora of other evidentiary points where they see him here physically getting in and out of the car.

00:21:40.000 The traffic stop that happened at 12 30 on the 11th, where a police officer identified the vehicle and him driving the vehicle around the same time that he's being seen on the ring camera.

00:21:52.000 So they're going to put All of this stuff together, and they're going to be able to present that before a jury, and they're going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:22:00.000 Now, I want people to be very clear on this because you can't put the cart before the horse.

00:22:03.000 This pretrial is a probable cause hearing.

00:22:07.000 So, all of the evidence that's being presented now does not have to be tested against other experts and scrutinized and cross examined.

00:22:15.000 It just needs to be presented and eligible to be presented in a pretrial.

00:22:19.000 So, the win here would be probable cause being established to go to trial.

00:22:24.000 Now, here's the other thing that could happen in this.

00:22:26.000 That I think people need to consider because Tyler Robinson's team in the defense haven't put in a plea.

00:22:32.000 So it could be a very likely scenario where, if probable cause is established, they're not going to, I just don't see them having a chance in a court of law.

00:22:42.000 And therefore, they may even plead guilty at the end of this probable cause hearing.

00:22:45.000 So that's why sometimes it's referenced in the court that there may not be a trial.

00:22:50.000 And that is because if the evidence is overwhelming, they may plead guilty.

00:22:55.000 That's a fascinating.

00:22:57.000 Fascinating interest.

00:22:59.000 It's a fascinating idea I hadn't considered yet.

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00:23:53.000 And remember, whyrefi doesn't care what your credit score is.

00:23:56.000 Just go to whyrefi.com and tell them your friend Andrew sent you.

00:24:02.000 Here's one other thing that I want to get your take on because I saw this going around on social media as well.

00:24:09.000 And this is, again, when the examination of Officer Hull was ongoing, the defense brought up the fact that there was another.

00:24:18.000 Bullet found on site.

00:24:20.000 Let's go ahead and get this, and I want to get your take on it.

00:24:23.000 32.

00:24:24.000 The unfired bullet that you refer to, it's your understanding that that bullet was accounted for?

00:24:31.000 That's my recollection, yes.

00:24:32.000 Okay, and it possibly belonged to an officer that could have maybe been clearing his weapon?

00:24:39.000 Yes, that's what I recall being told about that particular item, yes.

00:24:43.000 When you said that it was possible that that round was from an officer clearing his weapon, what exactly do you mean by that?

00:24:54.000 Our standard practice in our department is to carry a rifle cruiser ready.

00:24:58.000 I'm sorry?

00:24:59.000 We carry our rifles in a situation which is called cruiser ready.

00:25:03.000 What does that mean?

00:25:04.000 It means we don't have a round chambered.

00:25:07.000 So if an officer deployed with his rifle, he would chamber around.

00:25:12.000 Once he had done whatever task it was that he was doing in order to put that weapon back, he would eject the magazine and eject the round.

00:25:20.000 Sometimes in doing so, rounds are dropped or not accounted for.

00:25:24.000 So, I don't know if you've ever been part of a cruiser ready team, Brandon, or if you have any experience with this, but explain clearing the chamber, what this means.

00:25:35.000 Have you ever encountered an instance in your professional career where a bullet went missing?

00:25:40.000 Explain all of that to me.

00:25:41.000 And how do you account for how much ammo you have as a police officer, et cetera?

00:25:46.000 Yeah, perfect.

00:25:47.000 I think every police officer in America probably goes by these standards.

00:25:51.000 They call it cruiser ready.

00:25:53.000 So, you don't want to have a round in the chamber while you're driving around with your rifle in the car.

00:25:58.000 Because if something goes wrong, well, it depends, but more than likely, you don't want to have it that way.

00:26:02.000 Because a lot of people carry their rifles in a bag in the trunk.

00:26:06.000 And so you don't want something to happen where you get into a crash or something hit the trigger and a round goes off from the back of your car.

00:26:11.000 So you ride with no round in the chamber.

00:26:16.000 Normally, the bolt is locked either because then you can drop around in if you hit a bump.

00:26:21.000 So you normally have the chamber to bolt forward with no round in the chamber.

00:26:25.000 Now, when you get out the car because it's time to get busy, you got to chamber one.

00:26:30.000 And so, a lot of times they'll rack one and put it in the chamber.

00:26:32.000 Now, if you don't get into a shooting or anything, you got to get the gun back ready to put back into your vehicle.

00:26:38.000 So, a lot of times what you do is you drop the magazine out and you hit the round and it comes out.

00:26:45.000 Now, in a campus situation where there's an active shooter potentially, I could see an officer getting their rifle ready and leaving the round because they don't have time to stick around and wait for it.

00:26:56.000 A lot of times, what I would do is pick my round up, right?

00:26:58.000 Because you have to be accounted for every round that's in the magazine.

00:27:01.000 So, it is a possibility that an officer could have done that.

00:27:04.000 Where they ejected around because they were getting ready to make their rifle ready to put back in the car.

00:27:09.000 Now, another scenario that could have happened that I think the detective or the investigator alluded to was there are some times where, in the heat of the moment, you may not know if you have a round in the chamber or not.

00:27:21.000 And so you're going to make sure that there's one chamber.

00:27:24.000 So you may rack it in order to make sure there's one in the chamber, but there's already one in the chamber, so you accidentally eject the round out.

00:27:31.000 Now, if you're doing that in a heated situation, you're not going to go back and grab the round.

00:27:34.000 You're going to go and you're going to go wherever you need to go with your rifle loaded.

00:27:38.000 So that could have been the case.

00:27:39.000 But nonetheless, we all know what the autopsy has alluded to, at least the evidence that has been presented, that it was a.30 caliber round that was found in Charlie Kirk's body.

00:27:50.000 So the round that was found on the ground on the other rooftop was a.556223.

00:27:55.000 That's not consistent with the caliber round that was found in Charlie's body.

00:28:00.000 So that is not applicable whatsoever anyway.

00:28:03.000 So I think that if somebody wanted to question that, they should divert to what the detective said or the investigator said on the stand, as is.

00:28:10.000 This could be the possibility of that round ending up where it said.

00:28:14.000 Plus, he was told that that was the case in the first place.

00:28:17.000 Yeah.

00:28:18.000 I think that is a great explanation, honestly.

00:28:21.000 And your personal experience with this is invaluable.

00:28:26.000 And it would make sense, by the way, I believe the round was found on another rooftop.

00:28:31.000 And I'm sure that that was kind of the first place these guys were going to go check, anyways.

00:28:36.000 Right.

00:28:37.000 So, or they may have already been on a rooftop or some to some degree.

00:28:43.000 And that could have been the reason why they ejected around right there on the turf.

00:28:47.000 No, but it was a great explanation, actually.

00:28:54.000 So we have a couple other clips on that, but I think we've kind of dealt with that.

00:28:57.000 I wanted to get to this point in the proceeding where it was David Englehart's letter, and it was kind of a purpose of the org and Charlie's faith.

00:29:12.000 And man, that took so long, so much back and forth.

00:29:16.000 I think it was.

00:29:17.000 The lawyer's name was Novak for the defense.

00:29:20.000 And that was another moment where I saw the judge get visibly sort of his patience was wearing thin.

00:29:27.000 Joe Bob, were you watching that?

00:29:30.000 And I mean, as a non legal expert who is a Christian, who knows Charlie's, how his faith was so intermixed with him, with what he did, his campus debates, what was going through your mind in that moment?

00:29:46.000 Yeah.

00:29:47.000 Getting pulled a lot of different directions.

00:29:50.000 One is probably similar to what Judge Graff is feeling.

00:29:53.000 It was like, this is a lot for this.

00:29:55.000 To my understanding, again, not a lawyer.

00:29:58.000 It would have been some sort of enhancement to the charge, being that Charlie was an outspoken Christian.

00:30:04.000 There's obviously a cultural angle of the organization.

00:30:07.000 And did Tyler Robinson act on Charlie's faith or the cultural presence of the organization, which is obviously why they would include the letter?

00:30:19.000 I think.

00:30:20.000 There's a part of me that wonders, you know, okay, there's a lot of obviously there's a lot of evidence there.

00:30:27.000 Is this super necessary, especially with how long that took?

00:30:31.000 But then there's another side of me that thinks, you know, so often there are instances where something happens to some sort of, I don't know, racial minority or ideological minority, and that's the only thing that matters.

00:30:47.000 It was a Muslim person here who's the victim of something, or a gay person here is the victim of something.

00:30:54.000 And almost never, never is it brought up, okay.

00:30:57.000 Well, the victim was an outspoken, devout Christian, as was the case in Charlie's case.

00:31:03.000 And so, while I, you know, there's not going to be an enhancement that's going to be, at least again, to my non lawyer understanding, that's going to be higher than aggravated murder, it is good to put it out there and be public about it.

00:31:18.000 Hey, this was at least part of the decision that Tyler Robinson allegedly made.

00:31:25.000 To kill Charlie, and Charlie was motivated purely by his faith. 0.71

00:31:29.000 Yeah, and you know, he's in a gay relationship with a trans identifying person, Lance Twiggs, obviously. 0.94

00:31:38.000 And by the way, I recommend anybody out there.

00:31:40.000 I think I'm going to tweet this out soon just to kind of help get it back out there.

00:31:43.000 But the Turkey Tom video, I've been told, has been authenticated.

00:31:48.000 Turkey Tom is a YouTuber who interviewed extensively one of their roommates or friends that kind of lived and kind of hung out with these guys and can give a very first person experience of what it was like to be around their relationship.

00:32:03.000 And I mean, it's a very depraved Lance Twiggs nesting, the audible.

00:32:10.000 Sexual relations upstairs, the manic depression, the drug waves. 0.62

00:32:15.000 Where everyone kept speculating, oh, my love.

00:32:18.000 Actually, that is how they talk to each other.

00:32:20.000 Yeah, that is how they talk.

00:32:21.000 And by the way, throw this up here to your point.

00:32:23.000 Throw this up.

00:32:24.000 This is the 143.

00:32:26.000 This is what investigators say they found these text messages between them.

00:32:31.000 And to your point, Joe Bob, this enhancement of that Charlie was killed for his political and religious beliefs, I had enough of his hatred.

00:32:42.000 Some hate.

00:32:43.000 Can't be negotiated out.

00:32:45.000 Ironically, here in this same text, though, by the way, it explains why we might have seen Tyler Robinson on campus that night, right?

00:32:54.000 Because he goes, If I'm able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence, going to attempt to retrieve it again.

00:33:00.000 Hopefully, they have moved on.

00:33:02.000 I haven't seen anything about them finding it yet.

00:33:03.000 So that might actually kind of be that full circle from why he went back on campus late in the evening on September 10th into the wee hours of September 11th.

00:33:13.000 But that first part is establishing motive.

00:33:16.000 And that was what that letter was all about.

00:33:18.000 And you're right.

00:33:19.000 You're not a lawyer, but I've been talking to lawyers all day, and I'm sure Brandon understands this well.

00:33:24.000 The death penalty has to be, you have to establish these enhancements, which would be, you know, killed for religious, political beliefs, right?

00:33:33.000 So the defense is trying to undermine this argument and take the death penalty off, which makes me think, Brandon, kind of about what you're talking about with this potential plea deal.

00:33:45.000 If he's going to plead at the end of this, Right.

00:33:48.000 Because if they could establish, if they could get the enhancements off by Judge Graff and get the death penalty off the table, they might be more motivated to take this thing to full trial.

00:33:58.000 But if they know they're staring at a death penalty trial, you know, that might factor into their calculus.

00:34:04.000 What do you think?

00:34:05.000 Yeah.

00:34:05.000 I think they have to utilize some tactics here because I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

00:34:10.000 And when they finish putting all the evidence together, I think it's going to be very clear to anybody who's willing to listen.

00:34:15.000 But they do have to, the prosecution does have to prove probable cause.

00:34:22.000 For 10 different charges.

00:34:25.000 So you have 10 charges.

00:34:27.000 They're going to have to methodically go through and say, this is our probable cause statement that a person who observed this evidence would reasonably believe that Taylor, I mean, that Tyler Robinson did this.

00:34:36.000 They got to go through every element.

00:34:37.000 And one of the elements is the enhancement.

00:34:39.000 And the enhancement is very clear that Tyler Robinson opposed Charlie Kirk's religious beliefs.

00:34:45.000 He opposed his political beliefs.

00:34:47.000 And here's one thing that they were trying to differentiate, which I think the judge caught.

00:34:51.000 The defense wanted to make a difference between political and faith.

00:34:57.000 And these two things overlap.

00:35:00.000 Charlie Kirk's religious beliefs or his political beliefs stemmed from his faith.

00:35:06.000 And so Tyler Robinson's hatred towards Charlie Kirk was political, but Charlie's political statements were faith driven statements.

00:35:14.000 So his lifestyle that he lived, Tyler Robinson lived, some of the reasons why he hated Charlie was all coupled with his political beliefs and faith.

00:35:22.000 Now, this is the reason why this is very important that they're going to have to prove later on in this hearing is that.

00:35:29.000 They charged him with an enhancement based on political beliefs.

00:35:34.000 And so the defense is trying to say these two things are different.

00:35:38.000 So the prosecution didn't meet the burden of identifying that this is political inside of this statement from Echols.

00:35:46.000 I think I may have said his name wrong.

00:35:48.000 Engelhardt.

00:35:51.000 Because Engelhardt's document was mainly religious.

00:35:55.000 But I think the prosecution to be able to identify that there is no separation between these two things, they're virtually the same.

00:36:02.000 And that Tyler Robinson's lifestyle was.

00:36:05.000 Antithetical to what Charlie was saying, which is why he wrote those things and then eventually shot and killed Charlie.

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00:38:23.000 I want to get to two more things here.

00:38:26.000 I want to get through the DNA, which was a really, really laborious thing.

00:38:30.000 I mean, I don't know.

00:38:31.000 I see you shaking your head.

00:38:32.000 I mean, it was hours.

00:38:33.000 Hours.

00:38:33.000 You can tell that they brought this attorney on to the defense team specifically for forensic cross examination because this guy was asking very much in the weeds.

00:38:43.000 And eventually the judge did basically try and rein it in because it was dragging.

00:38:48.000 It was going and going.

00:38:49.000 I just want to make sure we play this because we did.

00:38:51.000 It came after our last segment, just where they're asking.

00:38:55.000 They had items that had intermingled DNA of Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson, and they were laying out the odds that this was anyone other than Tyler Robinson on this object.

00:39:08.000 Let's do clip 31.

00:39:10.000 Male DNA was obtained from item 7 sub 1.

00:39:13.000 Item 7 sub 1 was interpreted as originating from two individuals, one of whom is Twiggs.

00:39:20.000 The DNA results from item 7 sub 1 are 1.7 octillion times more likely if Twiggs and T. Robinson are contributors than if Twiggs and an unknown, unrelated person are contributors.

00:39:33.000 Male DNA was obtained from item 8 sub 1.

00:39:37.000 Item 8 sub 1 was interpreted as originating from two individuals, one of whom is Twiggs.

00:39:42.000 The DNA results from item 8 sub 1 are 30 quintillion times more likely if Twiggs and T. Robinson are contributors than if Twiggs and an unknown, unrelated person are contributors.

00:39:54.000 Do you know if Lance Twiggs's DNA was obtained for comparison in this test?

00:40:01.000 Yes, it was.

00:40:02.000 And how was that DNA obtained?

00:40:04.000 It was obtained by law enforcement officers.

00:40:07.000 Okay, so quintillion.

00:40:09.000 I don't even know what that is.

00:40:10.000 That's after a trillion.

00:40:11.000 That's a lot.

00:40:13.000 I don't know.

00:40:14.000 I'm not good at the maths, but I can tell that's a lot.

00:40:17.000 And the first one, I think, was 1.7 octillion.

00:40:20.000 Octillion.

00:40:21.000 So eight times aillion.

00:40:23.000 And so that's.

00:40:25.000 So I want to make a point here because I've seen the internet.

00:40:28.000 Running wild with this one too.

00:40:29.000 So Lance Twiggs' DNA was also found on the towel, and a lot of it actually.

00:40:35.000 And I don't want to get like down some weird, you know, rated R kind of thing, but it's these were two men that were living together, and who knows where that towel came from.

00:40:47.000 I'm just going to leave it at that.

00:40:48.000 Okay.

00:40:49.000 Well, some people have been running with that it had apparently had more of Twiggs' DNA on it than Robinson.

00:40:55.000 Same with the screwdriver.

00:40:56.000 I wouldn't be surprised if the obvious explanation is that Robinson just took those items.

00:41:01.000 Right.

00:41:01.000 From Twiggs.

00:41:01.000 From Twiggs, yeah.

00:41:03.000 So, but here's, let me just make this clear.

00:41:07.000 As a reminder, Twiggs is believed to be cooperating with the prosecution and may be receiving a limited immunity in exchange.

00:41:16.000 Now, of course, and I think, Tatum, you said this on one of your videos.

00:41:22.000 If it comes out that he actively participated in the murder, that immunity would presumably go away.

00:41:30.000 And I would be totally.

00:41:32.000 In support of that, okay, as I would be in support of if it comes out and is revealed that other people had foreknowledge, other people radicalized him, other people were involved.

00:41:42.000 That's not what this case is about.

00:41:44.000 This case is about did Tyler Robinson kill Charlie?

00:41:49.000 Okay, so I just want to make that extraordinarily clear.

00:41:53.000 Do I still have questions about how did he get radicalized?

00:41:56.000 Who influenced him?

00:41:57.000 How did he get to that point?

00:41:59.000 A thousand billion percent.

00:42:02.000 And I have questions about Lance Twiggs, a lot of questions about Lance Twiggs.

00:42:07.000 But for this purpose, he is a state witness against Tyler Robinson.

00:42:14.000 Officer Tatum, do you have anything specifically you want to say about that?

00:42:18.000 Yeah, I think to kind of sum up this DNA question mark, I think that the purpose of the questioning by the defense was to just prolong and draw the thing out.

00:42:30.000 They never got to any foundational conclusion.

00:42:33.000 I don't understand how the judge allowed them to do this for three hours.

00:42:37.000 This is a probable cause hearing.

00:42:39.000 The only burden that the state needs to prove is that is this admissible and is the documentation reliable because the source is reliable?

00:42:49.000 That's it.

00:42:50.000 And it should be admissible in court.

00:42:51.000 They drug this thing on, and the judge said several times, reminding both counsel, that this is a probable cause hearing.

00:43:00.000 So I think that this was just a tactic by the defense to draw this thing on so that the defense or the prosecution couldn't cross examine the witness and get the facts out.

00:43:09.000 The way they should have been presented.

00:43:11.000 Also, the Lance Twiggs thing, the limited immunity, the reason why you would give somebody limited immunity is that they are involved to a point where the things that they say could get them in trouble.

00:43:24.000 And so you say, I'm going to give you immunity up until the testimony that you give, and you could give us the testimony and you won't go to jail over this.

00:43:33.000 Now, if we find out later through other investigative methods that you're involved, you're still going to go to jail for that.

00:43:40.000 But the testimony that you give, because it could be incriminating to you, And obviously, it probably was.

00:43:46.000 That's why they gave him limited immunity.

00:43:47.000 You can feel free to tell us everything you know and how you were potentially involved in this.

00:43:52.000 Now, the DNA aspect of it is that I think they were trying to prove that the items couldn't have been something that wasn't associated with Tyler Robinson.

00:44:03.000 Because if the towel was just found in the bushes, it could be anybody's towel.

00:44:07.000 The towel could have been placed there by somebody else.

00:44:10.000 But because Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson's DNA are on the items, it draws it.

00:44:16.000 It draws the connection to Tyler Robinson because they live in the same place and the items must have come from his house.

00:44:22.000 And so when you have the gun, you have, I mean, at least a screwdriver and a towel, both of those things associating the two individuals together would indicate that this couldn't have been external.

00:44:31.000 This couldn't have been somebody planting it on Tyler Robinson and putting his DNA on there mysteriously.

00:44:37.000 It had to have been something that came from a domain or dwelling that they both shared.

00:44:42.000 And I think Lance Twiggs may have prepped some of this stuff for him.

00:44:47.000 Which is probably how he got the partial immunity.

00:44:50.000 And then he's going to testify against Tyler Robinson in court.

00:44:54.000 One other thing here, real quick, and then I want to throw it to Joe Bob with this story that came out from inside the court and Erica.

00:45:00.000 But, you know, I see people saying that, you know, is there any footage of the shooting and the prosecution saying no?

00:45:08.000 You guys have probably seen this.

00:45:09.000 A lot of people are running with this on social media.

00:45:11.000 Don't run with anything.

00:45:12.000 That is not what happened.

00:45:14.000 What actually happened, and this is about the compilation video.

00:45:19.000 They're asking it basically was there anything visible about the shooting in that video?

00:45:25.000 And they said no in that specific exhibit.

00:45:28.000 They were asking, Is there footage of the shooting in it?

00:45:31.000 They said no, but even then, even then, we don't need to go for that far down it because we have footage of the same person showing up on campus repeatedly, him going into the position where our ballistics evidence and our video evidence suggest the bullet came from.

00:45:48.000 He's there at the time the shooting happens, right?

00:45:50.000 He's running away after it.

00:45:51.000 You don't need a video of someone firing a gun if you have every single piece of surrounding evidence supporting the idea that someone went there and shot a gun.

00:46:01.000 So, to be clear, no, the prosecution did not say there's no footage of the shooting.

00:46:05.000 The prosecution said the exhibit, which contains a compilation of surveillance footage of Robinson moving around on campus, didn't contain graphic footage of the shooting.

00:46:15.000 That was relevant.

00:46:15.000 By the way, Erica needs to know that stuff too.

00:46:19.000 The victims sitting in the courtroom need to be aware of that. 1.00

00:46:22.000 Go ahead.

00:46:22.000 Yeah, Andrew, I think you made an incredible point that I think if people weren't sitting in the courtroom, they wouldn't have understood this.

00:46:29.000 The purpose of the clarification, and the prosecutor actually came back and clarified that there is video of the suspect getting on the roof, going to a prom position, and the shot is believed to be fired during that position.

00:46:42.000 But they wanted to clarify so that Erica didn't have to be in the courtroom witnessing Charlie getting shot.

00:46:48.000 So they were saying that it's not graphic in nature.

00:46:51.000 So you're going to see the suspect get on the rooftop.

00:46:54.000 He's going to get into a prone position in this area.

00:46:56.000 We believe the shot happened.

00:46:58.000 It's not very clear and conclusive, you know, that the shot happened, but you can use deductive reasoning and time stamp everything else.

00:47:04.000 But I'm going to time stamp everything else.

00:47:06.000 But I'm going to time stamp everything else.

00:47:08.000 When he's sitting in the prone position, which is exactly when Charlie was shot.

00:47:12.000 And he also admitted to it, right?

00:47:14.000 So you got a ton of people that heard that the shots happened.

00:47:18.000 You have him on the roof at the time that the shot happened.

00:47:20.000 And then you got him turning himself in as a person responsible for shooting Charlie Kirk.

00:47:24.000 So, I mean, this is why they put the totality of evidence together and they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

00:47:30.000 And I think that with the evidence that we see, it's not going to be a challenge for them to prove to a jury to say, do you believe.

00:47:39.000 Beyond a reasonable doubt, that there's no reasonable doubt that Tyler Robinson did this when they put all the evidence together.

00:47:44.000 And it's going to be clear.

00:47:45.000 You don't have a video of a guy who was identified by his parents going up the stairwell, getting into a prom position, admitting that he took the shot.

00:47:55.000 The shot is being heard by multiple people at the same time.

00:47:58.000 They even look back at the direction where the shot came from with a clear line of sight.

00:48:03.000 You don't get all of that, and people have a doubt.

00:48:06.000 It's going to be very clear with the totality of evidence, in my opinion, that he was 100% the one.

00:48:12.000 And Lance Twiggs is going to be a The key in this case.

00:48:15.000 And I think that as the pretrial continues, his testimony is going to get brought up.

00:48:20.000 And I cannot wait to hear what he has to say.

00:48:23.000 And I wouldn't imagine that if he's a witness for the state, he must be giving incriminating evidence that points to tolerance.

00:48:32.000 Correct.

00:48:33.000 And reminder, everybody the cop from yesterday said, I heard a rifle shot.

00:48:39.000 I identified it as a rifle.

00:48:40.000 The medical examiner report identifies the cause of death as a gunshot wound.

00:48:47.000 You know, to the next.

00:48:48.000 So there's, I mean, there's all kinds of stuff that when you talk about this totality of evidence, Officer Tatum.

00:48:54.000 Joe Bob, you wanted to bring this up.

00:48:56.000 This, so apparently, Erica, there was a story, you know, they're going to claim that I planted this story.

00:49:03.000 I had no idea about this story.

00:49:04.000 I didn't even know what AL.com was.

00:49:05.000 But, anyways, go ahead.

00:49:06.000 Please tell everybody.

00:49:07.000 No, it was, so during the trial, you're watching on screen, but there's obviously a lot of lulls and boring moments, for lack of a better term.

00:49:18.000 And so I sometimes take the time and scroll through some of the live feeds on different newspaper websites.

00:49:23.000 The New York Times has a live updated feed.

00:49:26.000 The Associated Press also does too.

00:49:28.000 So I was scrolling through the Associated Press.

00:49:30.000 And during the lunch break, I don't know if this is on video, but it's in print.

00:49:35.000 The Associated Press reporter asked one of the people who was inside what the experience was like.

00:49:40.000 And I think we have a graphic of it.

00:49:42.000 This is a woman attending the hearing who says it's been emotional.

00:49:45.000 Danae Branch, this is again, I'm reading from the Associated Press, who had lined up with friends at midnight.

00:49:52.000 To get some of the few public seats in the courtroom, she said she teared up during the hearing, and Erica Kirk reached over and offered her a tissue.

00:50:01.000 I'm quoting from Branch here.

00:50:02.000 She says, She doesn't know if I'm Team Erica or not, yet she handed me a tissue and I lost it, Branch said during the lunch recess.

00:50:10.000 She didn't know if I was a friend or not, and she showed love.

00:50:14.000 And in the midst of all of this, in trying to sort through all of the stuff going on in the actual court, I couldn't help but just go, Isn't that Erica?

00:50:24.000 Like, isn't that just like.

00:50:26.000 Typical classic Erica and one for those of us who know her, yeah, it is Job, yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah, everybody that got this normal that know Erica, we're not shocked, you know, yeah, it's what she does.

00:50:41.000 It's that's just so the first time that I saw Erica, you know, kind of face to face after all of this happened was backstage at a big event in Phoenix, and I, you know, I didn't know what to say, like, what do you say?

00:50:57.000 I mean, obviously, I've talked to her before, but like, what do you say?

00:51:00.000 And she's walking down the hall and goes out of her way.

00:51:03.000 I think Andrew, you were there, breaks kind of the big pack that she's in, comes over and gives me a hug and says, Good to see you.

00:51:09.000 And I lost it, but also that's just the person that she is.

00:51:15.000 It's showing kindness and love to anybody in the vicinity who's willing to accept it.

00:51:21.000 That's just Erica.

00:51:23.000 And when I was scrolling through this, I was like, Yeah, that tracks amid all of this stuff.

00:51:29.000 Of course.

00:51:30.000 Yeah, this is classic Erica.

00:51:32.000 Well, Officer Tatum, Joe Bob, thank you guys so much for joining us.

00:51:35.000 We are going to be joined next by an.

00:51:38.000 Expert on juries and she's got a CV that'll blow you away.

00:51:45.000 Hi, folks.

00:51:46.000 Andrew Colvett here.

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00:52:44.000 We are now joined by our next guest who is a jury consultant.

00:52:48.000 She's a jury consultant.

00:52:49.000 Which I think is really important in this instance.

00:52:52.000 And you want to bring her in for us?

00:52:53.000 Yes, yes. 1.00

00:52:55.000 She's actually a local in this area. 0.95

00:52:56.000 So we were hoping to have her in, but she had something pop up with her work.

00:53:01.000 And so we're having her by Zoom.

00:53:03.000 We're joined by Joellen Demetrius.

00:53:06.000 And correct me if I got any of this wrong, but you have quite the CV as a jury consultant.

00:53:12.000 For those who are not familiar with her, she helped.

00:53:15.000 She helped out with the OJ Simpson defense team with their jury selection, which a lot of people regard as quite the feat of jury selection.

00:53:24.000 More recently, you advised Daniel Penny's defense team, the Kyle Rittenhouse defense team.

00:53:29.000 So, involved in three of the most high profile trials that we've had.

00:53:35.000 And we wanted to have you in because we're already looking ahead.

00:53:38.000 This is a preliminary hearing, but we're looking ahead to the trial that we know will eventually be coming.

00:53:45.000 And what sorts of strategies, even now?

00:53:48.000 The prosecution and the defense might be looking towards because we know this is.

00:53:53.000 Yeah.

00:53:53.000 And my main interest, Joellen, is just because this is the first high profile public assassination of a political figure in the social media era.

00:54:04.000 And how does that change everything with all the conspiracies and stuff?

00:54:07.000 So, welcome to the show.

00:54:08.000 Thank you for joining us.

00:54:10.000 Well, first of all, Andrew and Blake, thank you so much.

00:54:13.000 And I'm sorry I couldn't be there in person, but I'll definitely take a rain check.

00:54:17.000 I would love to be there in person.

00:54:20.000 What a lot of people don't know about my background is that actually, probably the first eight years of my career, I did capital cases in California.

00:54:31.000 So I am intimately familiar with what is not only happening now in the preliminary hearing, but what will happen at trial.

00:54:41.000 And as you know, and you've probably had guests that have shared, right now the responsibility is up to the judge.

00:54:50.000 That the prosecution has to show probable cause, that the judge would then say, okay, I've seen enough probable cause, we'll move on to the trial.

00:54:59.000 And of course, the trial is a whole different standard, the standard being reasonable doubt.

00:55:07.000 So you're right, I think, Andrew, in talking about social media and the impact that that is going to have and is already having on the jury population in the state of Utah.

00:55:22.000 You know, so many things are being said from both sides, all sides of the spectrum.

00:55:28.000 And, you know, depending, I think, upon where you rest.

00:55:31.000 Politically, you know, people are picking up on those things that tend to support what their political views are.

00:55:40.000 You know, in a preliminary hearing, what's unusual certainly is that the defense does not have to put on any witnesses.

00:55:49.000 They only have the ability to cross examine the witnesses.

00:55:54.000 What to me is fascinating at this point is that the prosecution, I think, very adroitly has indicated.

00:56:03.000 Pursuant to a rule 1102 in Utah, that they're going to be putting on Tyler's roommate via the video that he took while he was being investigated, so that the defense will not have that opportunity to cross examine him.

00:56:24.000 Everything now is going to be viewed through that fine tooth comb called the camera in the courtroom.

00:56:32.000 And I can certainly speak to cameras in the courtroom, certainly based on what we saw.

00:56:38.000 In OJ, how, you know, my goodness, we had witnesses that were impacted by other witnesses and their testimony and reactions to the testimony.

00:56:49.000 And now it's certainly just ballooned because of social media.

00:56:56.000 So, what's happening right now in the jury pool?

00:56:59.000 You know, I think to some degree, we all want to think this is captivating everybody's attention.

00:57:06.000 I think it certainly is an important component of.

00:57:09.000 What's happening in our society right now.

00:57:13.000 But we tend to forget that the average person who isn't really up on what's happening in courtrooms and they're just concerned about how much they're paying for their gas or where their next meal is going to come from, they're not necessarily going to be glued to social media about this.

00:57:33.000 Well, that said.

00:57:35.000 Oh, I want to go at that a bit, Joellen, which is when we get to jury selection.

00:57:42.000 What level of selection are they going to have here in terms of are they going to be trying to find people who are really oblivious, who maybe can't remember who Charlie Kirk even is?

00:57:52.000 I have a question on that too.

00:57:53.000 Like, are they able to say, who do you follow on social media?

00:57:58.000 Can they actually like review like who they follow and who they engage with?

00:58:02.000 Is that level of granularity available to the prosecution and the defense?

00:58:07.000 Absolutely.

00:58:08.000 And I would certainly, and I say this to my clients, I think there's a level of perhaps misconduct by.

00:58:15.000 Attorneys who don't use social media searches.

00:58:19.000 What I'm worried about as a consultant, and I think any consultant who may be working on this case or weighing in about the case, is that someone who may have an agenda, a hidden agenda, they may choose to, if they find out they're being summoned for jury selection, they may sadly scrub their social media.

00:58:45.000 If it has something that is favorable to Charlie or something that's favorable to Robinson.

00:58:54.000 And that's where so much is going to go into the teams on both sides about a juror questionnaire to ask specific questions about knowledge about the case, to look at their social media, what their internet.

00:59:16.000 Collection may be.

00:59:18.000 And then judging all of that by what the oral responses are during the voidire process.

00:59:25.000 What's interesting about a capital case is that there's two phases.

00:59:30.000 The first is the guilt phase, the second is what we call the punishment phase.

00:59:35.000 And that would be hypothetically, if the prosecution goes ahead and charges the death penalty, they would be questioned about their views about the death penalty.

00:59:47.000 So there's a lot of layers to jury selection.

00:59:51.000 That will occur, you know, if the judge sends this to trial.

00:59:57.000 And certainly social media is a huge component of that for both sides.

01:00:03.000 Joel, so I'm just curious kind of the sequence of events here.

01:00:09.000 So a person gets a jury summons in the mail, they have to show up for, you know, to the court or whatever.

01:00:16.000 At what point is, say, the state in this instance, the prosecutors, Aware of their jury pool that they have, and would they be aware that that person is going to be brought to, you know, sit in this instance, the Tyler Robinson trial before the juror does?

01:00:33.000 So I'm getting to the point of would the juror even know they have time to scrub their social media account because they're thinking, oh, I'm going to get called for the Tyler Robinson trial?

01:00:42.000 You know, a great, great question, Andrew.

01:00:45.000 And every judge is different.

01:00:48.000 I can share with you that when I worked on the Enron case, obviously that's not capital punishment.

01:00:56.000 But the summons were sent out to jurors.

01:01:00.000 I want to say, like, gosh, two months, a month and a half before the actual trial.

01:01:06.000 The questionnaires were then sent out by the court to the jurors.

01:01:12.000 And we, the teams, were able then to review the questionnaires prior to ever seeing the jurors.

01:01:19.000 So, your question as to when both sides would know who these people are.

01:01:26.000 Is really going to be contingent upon the judge in this case and how he's going to proceed with the process.

01:01:33.000 And I'm sure there will be motions on both sides about how that process should exist.

01:01:42.000 Should it be that those people that are summoned receive a questionnaire in the mail, or in other cases, that hasn't happened until the jurors have actually showed up in the courtroom?

01:01:57.000 Needless to say, I think the judge is very solemnly looking at all of these things and ultimately determining what is going to give the best information without being too invasive, I guess, to a juror's privacy, which in a death penalty case, you know, I don't see how you can be somewhat invasive.

01:02:24.000 Yeah.

01:02:24.000 And John, I think you answered the question that the judge does have at his disposal.

01:02:29.000 Different mechanisms to sort of kind of make sure that the jurors, potential jurors, don't even know what case it is that they're answering the questionnaire for or the timing of it, because that does seem like a concern.

01:02:42.000 If I'm the defense, I'm probably going to want certain people to be following certain people on social media.

01:02:47.000 If I'm the prosecution, I would want the opposite.

01:02:50.000 So continue on, Joellen.

01:02:52.000 I didn't mean to cut you off there, but.

01:02:53.000 No, that's okay.

01:02:54.000 Yeah, but it's good to hear.

01:02:56.000 There's both the defense and the state can file motions to the judge to determine the process for jury selection.

01:03:02.000 That's a huge, huge insight.

01:03:04.000 So thank you.

01:03:05.000 Well, you know, the other part of this, Andrew and Blake, is that I suspect, I don't know for sure, But the defense may file what's known as a change of venue motion.

01:03:16.000 And in a change of venue motion, you're saying to the court and to the prosecution, we cannot get a fair trial here.

01:03:23.000 We've conducted a survey.

01:03:25.000 We found that 80% of the people in the county in which the case will be held think that our client is guilty.

01:03:36.000 What happens in that situation?

01:03:38.000 Obviously, there's a hearing, and whomever does the survey is brought in to testify.

01:03:45.000 Should a judge decide, That in fact, there is enough evidence for a change of venue, the judge then has the discretion about where to move it to.

01:03:59.000 It's very rare, very, very rare to have it moved out of state.

01:04:03.000 What more traditionally happens is the trial would be moved to probably a contiguous county.

01:04:12.000 The county that it's in right now, the judge may say, Well, we're going to move it to such and such a county, which is contiguous.

01:04:20.000 Because you don't want to create a lot of problems for witnesses that would be coming in to testify.

01:04:29.000 Would the judge stay put though on the trial, right?

01:04:33.000 That wouldn't mean like a new judge gets appointed or something?

01:04:36.000 No, that's a good question.

01:04:38.000 No, the judge generally goes with, and that's one of the reasons that they choose contiguous counties because if you were to go from, I don't know, a county in northern Utah to something like down in St. George, You know, that might be problematic for the judge as well.

01:04:55.000 So, everybody's, you know, everybody who's participating, all the witnesses, the lawyers, you know, all of that would be a factor, I think, in the judge's ultimate determination.

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01:06:32.000 So there's a big elephant in the room with this case that we're all thinking about, which is besides the more direct questions of guilt or evidence with Tyler Robinson, we know there's been a lot of really weird conspiracy theories surrounding this case.

01:06:47.000 People have been pushing them for the past year.

01:06:49.000 People have been still pushing them as hard as ever over the past few days.

01:06:54.000 And we've noted the defense lawyers.

01:06:57.000 Don't seem to have made many gestures in the direction of that.

01:07:00.000 They did ask one of the witnesses if he was involved in the decision to pave over the site of the shooting, which there's been some discussion about.

01:07:09.000 But there's not too much about exploding lapel pins, anything of that nature.

01:07:14.000 And so I was wondering if you have thoughts.

01:07:16.000 First of all, even if the defense aren't talking about that, is it possible that they'll be making maneuvers when we get to jury selection to make it possible for one of those people to get on a jury, someone who's not going to care about evidence?

01:07:31.000 Someone who's going to believe really delusional things, someone who might have that agenda you mentioned.

01:07:37.000 Well, let me just get me on the jury and I'll do what I feel like.

01:07:40.000 And let me just boil it down.

01:07:41.000 I mean, the people that are kind of part of this, I mean, it's almost cult like in the way that they sort of believe the opposite of the facts, right?

01:07:50.000 It doesn't matter what the facts say, you cannot convince them that there's anything to them.

01:07:56.000 It's all fed slop, it's all narrative, right?

01:07:58.000 Even though there's like DNA and fingerprints.

01:08:00.000 And so, three things that I guess I'd get at, which is one, Is the defense thinking about this?

01:08:05.000 Is there strategies they would do?

01:08:07.000 Two, are there strategies the prosecution can do to get ahead of this?

01:08:12.000 And I guess three, biggest picture of all, how can the judge handle this case?

01:08:18.000 How do you handle it if there's a cult out there that could potentially taint your jury pool?

01:08:25.000 Great, all great questions.

01:08:28.000 And suffice it to say, number one, yes, the defense is looking at all of these aspects.

01:08:34.000 They have to.

01:08:35.000 They have to look at the crazy components that are out there and the not so crazy components that are out there.

01:08:43.000 I mean, goodness, like in OJ, we remember hearing about the Colombian necklace during some of our meetings.

01:08:52.000 So, suffice it to say, they are definitely looking at that.

01:08:56.000 And I think that the prosecution is too.

01:08:58.000 There's so many different issue areas that were I working with either side, I'd be looking at.

01:09:07.000 I'd be looking at people's personal use and understanding of guns.

01:09:15.000 I'd be looking at their views of law enforcement.

01:09:18.000 I'd be looking at their views of First Amendment, free speech, oh my goodness, political views.

01:09:25.000 And I think, and I don't know this to be the case, but I think that the defense has utilized a consultant in the past.

01:09:34.000 I don't know the individual's name or the company name.

01:09:38.000 But my guess would be that they're probably already taking a look at some of those issues, whether it's in surveys or focus groups.

01:09:48.000 Certainly, I think both sides could certainly gain a lot of knowledge from that type of research.

01:09:57.000 Yeah, you kind of wonder to Blake's point when they brought up the paving over of the crime scene, which again, something we learned about on the news, just like the witness that was testifying today.

01:10:09.000 You sort of wonder, I don't know, just how much that has crept in to the psyche of the jury pool.

01:10:21.000 And how do you find anybody in a case this high profile that is kind of.

01:10:26.000 Dispassionately removed from it and is able to look at something objectively.

01:10:30.000 I will tell you to something that you said we're so close to this.

01:10:35.000 This is sort of all consuming all day.

01:10:36.000 It's what we do today.

01:10:37.000 It's what we did yesterday.

01:10:39.000 So we're going to do this week.

01:10:40.000 But when I go out in the real world and I talk with, you know, when me and my wife are hanging out with friends or whatever, they have no idea that, you know, I'm in a Twitter feud or, you know, something like that.

01:10:53.000 They have no idea about so much.

01:10:55.000 And it's actually really relieving.

01:10:57.000 So I do sort of understand.

01:11:00.000 What you're saying that there's a lot of people out there that are not tuning into this 24 7, you know, getting the full TikTok of it every day.

01:11:07.000 So let's hope that there's still enough untainted potential jurors out there.

01:11:12.000 Well, you know, for both sides' perspective, really the only thing that you can hope for is, you know, people will know about this.

01:11:21.000 You hope and you pray during the process of jury selection and the trial that those 12 people ultimately that you do select.

01:11:31.000 Are able to listen and only focus and only make their determination on the evidence that they've heard in the courtroom.

01:11:40.000 And, you know, sadly, you know, we learn about bizarre things that happen all the time, like Alex Murdoch and what happened with the court clerk in that case influencing verdict.

01:11:53.000 But I think hopefully that's the rarity.

01:11:57.000 And I do believe that people take jury service seriously and they want to do the right thing.

01:12:06.000 But now there are so many other factors that are out there.

01:12:09.000 The one thing I can tell you for sure, though, is that this judge will very much protect the identity of those jurors and that jury panel when they come in.

01:12:21.000 And how is that done?

01:12:23.000 Well, first of all, you know, the media is never allowed to take photos or video of jurors.

01:12:29.000 Secondly, if a questionnaire is used, only the number of the juror will be used.

01:12:37.000 And sometimes a judge If they release the completed questionnaires, they will black out elements that might in some way identify them, like where they work, how many kids they have, something like that.

01:12:56.000 So I can assure you, just based on what I've read about this judge, he will be very, very protective of these jurors.

01:13:05.000 And you just hope that there isn't somebody that has a hidden agenda for either side that ends up coming in on this jury panel.

01:13:14.000 You're an expert on jury profiling.

01:13:17.000 I think it was that you created the perfect juror that the OJ team wanted to look for.

01:13:24.000 What would we say?

01:13:25.000 What's the ideal type of juror that you maybe might anticipate for the prosecution in this case?

01:13:31.000 And I suppose for the defense, if you're willing to speculate on that.

01:13:35.000 I don't want to put you on the spot.

01:13:37.000 That's okay.

01:13:39.000 I get put on the spot all the time.

01:13:41.000 So, traditionally, in this kind of case, you would want to be, from the prosecution's perspective, you know, clearly you want somebody who's law and order, somebody who doesn't necessarily believe in the credibility of the police, doesn't necessarily discount what their testimony may be.

01:14:01.000 I suspect you would probably want somebody who has familiarity with weapons, rifles in particular. 0.62

01:14:11.000 You're generally, I think, looking for older individuals.

01:14:14.000 What's interesting here in Utah is the religiosity component of this case.

01:14:22.000 And by that, I refer to the large number of LDS individuals who live in Utah.

01:14:30.000 You know, I actually kind of was looking at this the other day.

01:14:37.000 From what I understand, the LDS church does not have any public.

01:14:42.000 Statement about the death penalty.

01:14:44.000 They kind of leave it up to the individual, their individual congregation as to what would make up their mind.

01:14:55.000 But clearly, the prosecution is going to want somebody, if in fact they do charge Tyler with the death penalty, they want somebody who's going to be supportive of that.

01:15:09.000 On the other side, on the defense side, You're going to be looking for those individuals who, you know, opposite don't necessarily have the trust for the police.

01:15:22.000 You're looking for individuals who don't have experience utilizing weapons that can be, you know, perhaps led by an expert in any way that they can.

01:15:36.000 Also, I think politically, you're looking for people who are more liberal traditionally.

01:15:42.000 In capital cases, that's what you're looking for.

01:15:47.000 People who would have a difficult time themselves applying the death penalty.

01:15:53.000 I mean, for me in this case, and what I know about this case, you know, I think from a defense perspective, they would be looking towards that second phase in terms of who are the people they're going to want to eliminate, who are the dangerous people to them, and who are the The people that might be favorable to them.

01:16:15.000 So, just as a very general proposition, I think those are areas that both sides would be looking at.

01:16:23.000 I think that's really smart.

01:16:25.000 This has been amazing, Joel.

01:16:26.000 And we want to respect your time and the time of our audience.

01:16:28.000 We try and keep the nightly recaps on the tighter side.

01:16:31.000 So, I think we're going to close out here.

01:16:33.000 But thank you so, so much.

01:16:35.000 A really incredible insight, especially on how the judge can kind of protect the jury pool from knowing which case they're going to be a juror on and the social media.

01:16:45.000 Scrubbing.

01:16:46.000 That was really fascinating.

01:16:47.000 So thank you.

01:16:48.000 And we're going to have you on again soon if you're willing, if you'll come back on with us.

01:16:52.000 So we need to have a hearing soon.

01:16:53.000 Absolutely.

01:16:54.000 I'd love to.

01:16:54.000 This has been a treat.

01:16:55.000 Thank you.

01:16:56.000 Awesome.

01:16:57.000 Great.

01:16:57.000 We'll have a great night and God bless you and thank you so much.

01:17:00.000 And that concludes our night two of day two of the preliminary hearing in the state of Utah versus Tyler Robinson.

01:17:09.000 Please let us know if you have any other questions.

01:17:11.000 Send us emails at freedom at charliekirk.com.

01:17:14.000 Freedom at charliekirk.com.

01:17:15.000 If you have questions, that means we should probably be trying to provide answers.

01:17:18.000 So Please send us those questions and we'll get right on it.

01:17:22.000 Until tomorrow, God bless you.

01:17:23.000 We'll talk to you then.

01:17:28.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - July 08, 2026

Tyler Robinson Hearing Aftermath: Day 2

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