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00:01:39.000Gentlemen, thank you so much for coming and joining us.
00:01:42.000Brandon, I know you were in the courthouse all today.
00:01:45.000I can't wait to dive in and get your POV.
00:01:48.000I want to set this up just really quickly for our audience before we get into it.
00:01:52.000The day two was, I think, an absolute bombshell of a day.
00:01:58.000There were multiple aspects of today that were critically important for the state to establish probable cause, which again is the standard in a preliminary hearing to take it.
00:02:13.000And gentlemen, this is where we're going to start.
00:02:15.000We left off last night where they were trying to submit this.
00:02:19.000The state was trying to submit this video compilation and they had sort of a John Madden style version of it that they were not allowed to do.
00:02:26.000But this morning they got the compilation in.
00:02:28.000It was more of the raw footage version of it.
00:02:35.000There was now, we've established that Tyler Robinson was on campus, the UVU campus, four times.
00:02:43.000Twice in the morning, then during the actual shooting, and then once in the evening that actually bled into the early hours of September 11th.
00:02:54.000Officer Tatum, I want to start with you, sir.
00:02:57.000What was that like watching that footage and hearing for the first time four times on the campus of UVU?
00:03:04.000Yeah, I can say thanks for having me on.
00:03:06.000I can say it was an incredible relief that we can match up common sense with evidence and get it presented in court as a probable cause effort.
00:03:15.000And because a lot of people are saying that, well, not a lot of people, I think people without a connected brainstem are saying that Tyler Robinson wasn't even on the campus whatsoever.
00:03:24.000And obviously, we see him on camera verified.
00:03:28.000He was even stopped by law enforcement at 12 30 a.m. on the 11th, where they identified the vehicle and they identified him as a person driving the vehicle.
00:03:36.000Then they compiled that and compared that to some of the videos that they had from previous days or the previous day.
00:04:01.000The first hour of today was back and forth where they basically were, again, were arguing can we please not show this sequence of video, even the unedited version?
00:04:10.000Can we not show it because there is a quote, a realistic likelihood of prejudice to Mr. Robinson's right to a fair trial?
00:04:19.000That basically, this video getting out there would be so viral, so widely seen, it would just make it too difficult for Robinson to have an untainted jury someday.
00:04:36.000What did you see from your perch as soon as that video evidence was made public and was actually broadcast, too, to Judge Tony Graff's credit?
00:04:45.000Yeah, so to back up to the kind of procedural part of it, there was obviously arguing over whether or not this should be shown.
00:04:53.000And it was interesting to see, I think he's an attorney representing the media side of it saying, hey, well, if Judge Graff is going to make a decision on whether this is going to proceed to trial, everybody needs to see what he sees, unless, of course, obviously it's graphic.
00:05:08.000That way, so they, if he makes an assessment, when he makes an assessment, people can believe that assessment, which is an interesting dynamic in the courtroom.
00:05:16.000Obviously, we're all grateful that this footage is now out and public.
00:05:21.000In terms of the internet reaction, it was huge.
00:05:26.000Like everybody I knew shared at least some version of one of the several videos that came out, and the normal people reacted like, yeah, this kind of seems like something we knew, something we knew was coming, and now it's here.
00:05:42.000And then you've got, you know, 2% of the population who then decided to take it and run a different direction.
00:05:48.000Well, but, Like, okay, well, there's nothing you can do to please those people.
00:05:53.000But overall, this, as Brandon was saying, kind of put to bed a lot of the, I don't even know what to call it, the craziness that was out there.
00:06:04.000Tyler Robinson wasn't even on the campus.
00:06:48.000What was it like inside the courtroom when that was happening?
00:06:52.000Well, for me, it was an incredible relief.
00:06:55.000I think I can echo the sentiment of most people that's on the Charlie Kirk side, is that initially it was questionable whether or not they were going to get this amount of evidence or this type of evidence into the trial.
00:07:07.000But towards the end of the day, yesterday, we kind of knew that if we prepared it right, the evidence would be admissible.
00:07:14.000But it was a sigh of relief, and especially because we were able to, you know, I think it was a give or take, because it was a sigh of relief because we were able to get the information in.
00:07:21.000Therefore, the world can see that Tyler Roberts was, it's evidence that he was on campus.
00:07:25.000But the thing that was a little disappointing in part was that there was the other variation of the video that had some circles and zooms and blurs on it that I think would have been more appropriate for the audience at large.
00:07:38.000You know, people in the courtroom, we could see what was going on.
00:07:43.000But to the public, with that video being displayed the way it was, it's not very easy to see unless you zoom in.
00:07:50.000So the video that the judge allowed to be admissible in court but not viewed by the public.
00:07:56.000Was a video that I think would have been a lot easier for people to digest online.
00:08:01.000But overall, I think it was incredibly powerful, and I think it was a sigh of relief that things were going in the right direction for the Charlie Kirk team.
00:08:12.000I saw that you posted some kind of selfie videos, Brandon.
00:08:16.000I don't know if those are on break or whatever during today in the middle of the different breaks and the action.
00:08:27.000This theory of like the patsy theory, and you were talking about uh, could other people have been involved, and that we're still kind of dealing with this notion of.
00:08:38.000I think you know, this is coming from Candace that you know, she doesn't even believe that he was on campus that day, and she doesn't believe that this guy was the right height or whatever.
00:08:46.000Let's go ahead and play this clip and I'll have you respond.
00:09:16.000Well, I think people should be able to digest this information and say if a person is going to say he wasn't even there, he was a patsy, and there's no evidence whatsoever presented to back that claim up, then you should probably question where the person is getting their information from.
00:09:33.000It is clear as the noonday sun, he was on campus.
00:09:36.000Four times, and for him being a body double or something like that, even the defense isn't arguing this.
00:09:43.000This is the thing that people need to understand is that if how is somebody who's not associated with the case, has no investigative skills, is not investigating anything, is you know, any substantive thing, um, going to argue something that the defense isn't even arguing.
00:09:57.000They're not arguing that Tyler Robinson wasn't on campus, they're not arguing against that.
00:10:02.000You know, the funny thing that I found in this trial, Brandon, that's such a good point, Brandon.
00:10:06.000Another thing is, as well, is that the prosecution is saying Tyler Robinson is here.
00:10:15.000And the defense isn't even objecting to it because you would think that the defense will object to it because it's still a probable cause hearing.
00:10:22.000They haven't determined that they have probable cause to believe yet that Tyler Robinson is, in fact, that suspect.
00:10:28.000But the defense isn't even objecting to the prosecution claiming this is Tyler Robinson.
00:10:33.000He did this, he did that, he walked here.
00:10:35.000And I'll tell you something else that the defense messed up on.
00:10:39.000Because they're not doing an adequate job when it comes to this, is that she tried to be impartial when she said a suspect jumps off of the roof.
00:11:00.000It's because they know for a fact that it was Tyler Robinson.
00:11:02.000And at least I think they believe it was Tyler Robinson.
00:11:05.000And those things are being brought up in court.
00:11:07.000I encourage people to look at the evidence.
00:11:11.000Quit listening to people online, especially those who do not have law enforcement experience or experience doing investigations, or those who won't even interview people with experience.
00:11:20.000You have to put those things together.
00:11:21.000So listen to what's going on in the hearing.
00:11:23.000Make the determination on your own, but it has to be rooted in facts and it has to be rooted in evidence.
00:11:30.000I think what we'll see, we've seen it the last few days and we will see it in the weeks, months, potentially years to come, is that people who are committed to this line of reasoning that Robinson is a patsy, that Robinson wasn't there, that Robinson, that No one fired a shot from the top of that building.
00:11:47.000I don't think they're really motivated by believing a particular source.
00:11:50.000I think they're motivated, frankly, by malice.
00:11:54.000They want to believe a certain line and they don't, they genuinely don't care what the evidence is.
00:12:00.000But fortunately, I think most people aren't going in that direction.
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00:13:15.000I wanted to flag another thing that was very strong besides the four times on campus.
00:13:20.000I think this gets at the crux of why we can be so confident in this case that they actually asked Investigator Hull, Did you guys have a suspect in this case?
00:13:31.000Until you got news that someone had turned himself in.
00:13:42.000And isn't it fair to say that as of the moment that Tyler Robinson voluntarily surrendered to authorities in Washington County, as of that moment, you all did not know who the shooter was?
00:14:15.000That information came originally, I believe, from the Washington County Sheriff to the administration at the control center at the university on the evening of the investigation, or the second evening of the investigation.
00:15:07.000Identified this person they'd seen on cameras, so they were releasing photos.
00:15:10.000But I think my interpretation of that was they did not have a name, they didn't have a name, they didn't have a particular person they were on a manhunt for.
00:15:18.000And then they learned that he had voluntarily turned himself in.
00:15:21.000And that's the defense, that's the defense attorney saying that Tyler Robinson turned himself in.
00:15:25.000And that's another thing that these people online have tried to deny ever happened.
00:15:31.000Yeah, this is incredibly damning to the defense.
00:15:36.000When you have no idea who the person is, why would a person that had nothing to do with this?
00:16:10.000This flies in the face of the theory that he's somehow being used by somebody else.
00:16:16.000If somebody turned him in, meaning somebody snitched and said, hey, it was him, and they went and picked him up, and it happened that way, then I can see somebody saying he's a patsy or something.
00:16:24.000But why would your parents who love you, presumably, I see them in the courtroom, and they go, I'm just going to make this up.
00:16:33.000I'm going to act like my son did this heinous crime that's going to put him in a bad light for the rest of his life.
00:16:39.000It's going to go down in history if he's found guilty that he killed one of the most incredible men to ever live in the United States of America.
00:16:48.000And you're telling me that parents just turn him in because one day they just got a wild hair and thought it'd be cool to turn their son in for this.
00:16:54.000And he could be put to death over this.
00:18:05.000Well, I don't want to jump ahead too far in the day, but there's the commentary that I saw online was when they got to the DNA portion of it, and the examiner there wouldn't say, well, definitive this, definitive that.
00:18:22.000When in actuality, it's US DOJ policy that examiners don't use definitive language when presenting DNA evidence and specifically in a pretrial.
00:18:34.000And to that point, on the crazy side, the word show trial has been thrown around.
00:18:43.000If this were a show trial, why would any of the evidence be inconclusive?
00:19:17.000Beware of the worms who gain control over gullible women who are loaded down with sins and swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning, but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.
00:19:28.000And isn't that exactly what we are seeing in real time?
00:19:46.000And Officer Tatum, I'm going to appeal to your experience as a police officer here.
00:19:52.000A lot has been made about this ring camera footage that shows Tyler Robbins' car going in front of it.
00:19:58.000And I guess the owner of the house remembers somebody bald with three people driving the car and with three people in it or something to that effect.
00:20:06.000So everybody's saying, oh, see, it wasn't Tyler driving it or whatever.
00:20:11.000But the ring camera shows what actually happened, and that's that the car was driving by the house.
00:20:16.000So explain the difference between witness.
00:20:20.000Eyewitness testimony, recollections, you know, the human frailty of memory versus the video evidence pulled from that ring camera.
00:20:28.000Well, thank you for going to me with this one.
00:20:31.000But I think that people have to understand that they're looking at the totality of evidence.
00:20:37.000And in an actual trial, it's beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:20:41.000So there is a burden that you have to prove that's beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:20:44.000So you put all the evidence together, and this is why they don't just talk to the people that live in the house and get their written statements.
00:21:16.000You take the totality of evidence and you put it together and build a testimony of what happens.
00:21:23.000You don't take little parts here, parts there, and try to make a whole case on it.
00:21:27.000They're going to look at the vehicle as one element of placing him on campus.
00:21:33.000But they have a plethora of other evidentiary points where they see him here physically getting in and out of the car.
00:21:40.000The traffic stop that happened at 12 30 on the 11th, where a police officer identified the vehicle and him driving the vehicle around the same time that he's being seen on the ring camera.
00:21:52.000So they're going to put All of this stuff together, and they're going to be able to present that before a jury, and they're going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
00:22:00.000Now, I want people to be very clear on this because you can't put the cart before the horse.
00:22:03.000This pretrial is a probable cause hearing.
00:22:07.000So, all of the evidence that's being presented now does not have to be tested against other experts and scrutinized and cross examined.
00:22:15.000It just needs to be presented and eligible to be presented in a pretrial.
00:22:19.000So, the win here would be probable cause being established to go to trial.
00:22:24.000Now, here's the other thing that could happen in this.
00:22:26.000That I think people need to consider because Tyler Robinson's team in the defense haven't put in a plea.
00:22:32.000So it could be a very likely scenario where, if probable cause is established, they're not going to, I just don't see them having a chance in a court of law.
00:22:42.000And therefore, they may even plead guilty at the end of this probable cause hearing.
00:22:45.000So that's why sometimes it's referenced in the court that there may not be a trial.
00:22:50.000And that is because if the evidence is overwhelming, they may plead guilty.
00:25:04.000It means we don't have a round chambered.
00:25:07.000So if an officer deployed with his rifle, he would chamber around.
00:25:12.000Once he had done whatever task it was that he was doing in order to put that weapon back, he would eject the magazine and eject the round.
00:25:20.000Sometimes in doing so, rounds are dropped or not accounted for.
00:25:24.000So, I don't know if you've ever been part of a cruiser ready team, Brandon, or if you have any experience with this, but explain clearing the chamber, what this means.
00:25:35.000Have you ever encountered an instance in your professional career where a bullet went missing?
00:25:53.000So, you don't want to have a round in the chamber while you're driving around with your rifle in the car.
00:25:58.000Because if something goes wrong, well, it depends, but more than likely, you don't want to have it that way.
00:26:02.000Because a lot of people carry their rifles in a bag in the trunk.
00:26:06.000And so you don't want something to happen where you get into a crash or something hit the trigger and a round goes off from the back of your car.
00:26:11.000So you ride with no round in the chamber.
00:26:16.000Normally, the bolt is locked either because then you can drop around in if you hit a bump.
00:26:21.000So you normally have the chamber to bolt forward with no round in the chamber.
00:26:25.000Now, when you get out the car because it's time to get busy, you got to chamber one.
00:26:30.000And so, a lot of times they'll rack one and put it in the chamber.
00:26:32.000Now, if you don't get into a shooting or anything, you got to get the gun back ready to put back into your vehicle.
00:26:38.000So, a lot of times what you do is you drop the magazine out and you hit the round and it comes out.
00:26:45.000Now, in a campus situation where there's an active shooter potentially, I could see an officer getting their rifle ready and leaving the round because they don't have time to stick around and wait for it.
00:26:56.000A lot of times, what I would do is pick my round up, right?
00:26:58.000Because you have to be accounted for every round that's in the magazine.
00:27:01.000So, it is a possibility that an officer could have done that.
00:27:04.000Where they ejected around because they were getting ready to make their rifle ready to put back in the car.
00:27:09.000Now, another scenario that could have happened that I think the detective or the investigator alluded to was there are some times where, in the heat of the moment, you may not know if you have a round in the chamber or not.
00:27:21.000And so you're going to make sure that there's one chamber.
00:27:24.000So you may rack it in order to make sure there's one in the chamber, but there's already one in the chamber, so you accidentally eject the round out.
00:27:31.000Now, if you're doing that in a heated situation, you're not going to go back and grab the round.
00:27:34.000You're going to go and you're going to go wherever you need to go with your rifle loaded.
00:27:39.000But nonetheless, we all know what the autopsy has alluded to, at least the evidence that has been presented, that it was a.30 caliber round that was found in Charlie Kirk's body.
00:27:50.000So the round that was found on the ground on the other rooftop was a.556223.
00:27:55.000That's not consistent with the caliber round that was found in Charlie's body.
00:28:00.000So that is not applicable whatsoever anyway.
00:28:03.000So I think that if somebody wanted to question that, they should divert to what the detective said or the investigator said on the stand, as is.
00:28:10.000This could be the possibility of that round ending up where it said.
00:28:14.000Plus, he was told that that was the case in the first place.
00:28:37.000So, or they may have already been on a rooftop or some to some degree.
00:28:43.000And that could have been the reason why they ejected around right there on the turf.
00:28:47.000No, but it was a great explanation, actually.
00:28:54.000So we have a couple other clips on that, but I think we've kind of dealt with that.
00:28:57.000I wanted to get to this point in the proceeding where it was David Englehart's letter, and it was kind of a purpose of the org and Charlie's faith.
00:29:12.000And man, that took so long, so much back and forth.
00:29:30.000And I mean, as a non legal expert who is a Christian, who knows Charlie's, how his faith was so intermixed with him, with what he did, his campus debates, what was going through your mind in that moment?
00:29:55.000To my understanding, again, not a lawyer.
00:29:58.000It would have been some sort of enhancement to the charge, being that Charlie was an outspoken Christian.
00:30:04.000There's obviously a cultural angle of the organization.
00:30:07.000And did Tyler Robinson act on Charlie's faith or the cultural presence of the organization, which is obviously why they would include the letter?
00:30:20.000There's a part of me that wonders, you know, okay, there's a lot of obviously there's a lot of evidence there.
00:30:27.000Is this super necessary, especially with how long that took?
00:30:31.000But then there's another side of me that thinks, you know, so often there are instances where something happens to some sort of, I don't know, racial minority or ideological minority, and that's the only thing that matters.
00:30:47.000It was a Muslim person here who's the victim of something, or a gay person here is the victim of something.
00:30:54.000And almost never, never is it brought up, okay.
00:30:57.000Well, the victim was an outspoken, devout Christian, as was the case in Charlie's case.
00:31:03.000And so, while I, you know, there's not going to be an enhancement that's going to be, at least again, to my non lawyer understanding, that's going to be higher than aggravated murder, it is good to put it out there and be public about it.
00:31:18.000Hey, this was at least part of the decision that Tyler Robinson allegedly made.
00:31:25.000To kill Charlie, and Charlie was motivated purely by his faith.
00:31:29.000Yeah, and you know, he's in a gay relationship with a trans identifying person, Lance Twiggs, obviously.
00:31:38.000And by the way, I recommend anybody out there.
00:31:40.000I think I'm going to tweet this out soon just to kind of help get it back out there.
00:31:43.000But the Turkey Tom video, I've been told, has been authenticated.
00:31:48.000Turkey Tom is a YouTuber who interviewed extensively one of their roommates or friends that kind of lived and kind of hung out with these guys and can give a very first person experience of what it was like to be around their relationship.
00:32:03.000And I mean, it's a very depraved Lance Twiggs nesting, the audible.
00:32:10.000Sexual relations upstairs, the manic depression, the drug waves.
00:32:15.000Where everyone kept speculating, oh, my love.
00:32:18.000Actually, that is how they talk to each other.
00:32:26.000This is what investigators say they found these text messages between them.
00:32:31.000And to your point, Joe Bob, this enhancement of that Charlie was killed for his political and religious beliefs, I had enough of his hatred.
00:33:02.000I haven't seen anything about them finding it yet.
00:33:03.000So that might actually kind of be that full circle from why he went back on campus late in the evening on September 10th into the wee hours of September 11th.
00:33:13.000But that first part is establishing motive.
00:33:16.000And that was what that letter was all about.
00:33:19.000You're not a lawyer, but I've been talking to lawyers all day, and I'm sure Brandon understands this well.
00:33:24.000The death penalty has to be, you have to establish these enhancements, which would be, you know, killed for religious, political beliefs, right?
00:33:33.000So the defense is trying to undermine this argument and take the death penalty off, which makes me think, Brandon, kind of about what you're talking about with this potential plea deal.
00:33:45.000If he's going to plead at the end of this, Right.
00:33:48.000Because if they could establish, if they could get the enhancements off by Judge Graff and get the death penalty off the table, they might be more motivated to take this thing to full trial.
00:33:58.000But if they know they're staring at a death penalty trial, you know, that might factor into their calculus.
00:34:27.000They're going to have to methodically go through and say, this is our probable cause statement that a person who observed this evidence would reasonably believe that Taylor, I mean, that Tyler Robinson did this.
00:35:00.000Charlie Kirk's religious beliefs or his political beliefs stemmed from his faith.
00:35:06.000And so Tyler Robinson's hatred towards Charlie Kirk was political, but Charlie's political statements were faith driven statements.
00:35:14.000So his lifestyle that he lived, Tyler Robinson lived, some of the reasons why he hated Charlie was all coupled with his political beliefs and faith.
00:35:22.000Now, this is the reason why this is very important that they're going to have to prove later on in this hearing is that.
00:35:29.000They charged him with an enhancement based on political beliefs.
00:35:34.000And so the defense is trying to say these two things are different.
00:35:38.000So the prosecution didn't meet the burden of identifying that this is political inside of this statement from Echols.
00:35:46.000I think I may have said his name wrong.
00:35:51.000Because Engelhardt's document was mainly religious.
00:35:55.000But I think the prosecution to be able to identify that there is no separation between these two things, they're virtually the same.
00:36:02.000And that Tyler Robinson's lifestyle was.
00:36:05.000Antithetical to what Charlie was saying, which is why he wrote those things and then eventually shot and killed Charlie.
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00:38:23.000I want to get to two more things here.
00:38:26.000I want to get through the DNA, which was a really, really laborious thing.
00:38:33.000You can tell that they brought this attorney on to the defense team specifically for forensic cross examination because this guy was asking very much in the weeds.
00:38:43.000And eventually the judge did basically try and rein it in because it was dragging.
00:38:49.000I just want to make sure we play this because we did.
00:38:51.000It came after our last segment, just where they're asking.
00:38:55.000They had items that had intermingled DNA of Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson, and they were laying out the odds that this was anyone other than Tyler Robinson on this object.
00:39:10.000Male DNA was obtained from item 7 sub 1.
00:39:13.000Item 7 sub 1 was interpreted as originating from two individuals, one of whom is Twiggs.
00:39:20.000The DNA results from item 7 sub 1 are 1.7 octillion times more likely if Twiggs and T. Robinson are contributors than if Twiggs and an unknown, unrelated person are contributors.
00:39:33.000Male DNA was obtained from item 8 sub 1.
00:39:37.000Item 8 sub 1 was interpreted as originating from two individuals, one of whom is Twiggs.
00:39:42.000The DNA results from item 8 sub 1 are 30 quintillion times more likely if Twiggs and T. Robinson are contributors than if Twiggs and an unknown, unrelated person are contributors.
00:39:54.000Do you know if Lance Twiggs's DNA was obtained for comparison in this test?
00:40:29.000So Lance Twiggs' DNA was also found on the towel, and a lot of it actually.
00:40:35.000And I don't want to get like down some weird, you know, rated R kind of thing, but it's these were two men that were living together, and who knows where that towel came from.
00:41:32.000In support of that, okay, as I would be in support of if it comes out and is revealed that other people had foreknowledge, other people radicalized him, other people were involved.
00:42:02.000And I have questions about Lance Twiggs, a lot of questions about Lance Twiggs.
00:42:07.000But for this purpose, he is a state witness against Tyler Robinson.
00:42:14.000Officer Tatum, do you have anything specifically you want to say about that?
00:42:18.000Yeah, I think to kind of sum up this DNA question mark, I think that the purpose of the questioning by the defense was to just prolong and draw the thing out.
00:42:30.000They never got to any foundational conclusion.
00:42:33.000I don't understand how the judge allowed them to do this for three hours.
00:42:51.000They drug this thing on, and the judge said several times, reminding both counsel, that this is a probable cause hearing.
00:43:00.000So I think that this was just a tactic by the defense to draw this thing on so that the defense or the prosecution couldn't cross examine the witness and get the facts out.
00:43:09.000The way they should have been presented.
00:43:11.000Also, the Lance Twiggs thing, the limited immunity, the reason why you would give somebody limited immunity is that they are involved to a point where the things that they say could get them in trouble.
00:43:24.000And so you say, I'm going to give you immunity up until the testimony that you give, and you could give us the testimony and you won't go to jail over this.
00:43:33.000Now, if we find out later through other investigative methods that you're involved, you're still going to go to jail for that.
00:43:40.000But the testimony that you give, because it could be incriminating to you, And obviously, it probably was.
00:43:46.000That's why they gave him limited immunity.
00:43:47.000You can feel free to tell us everything you know and how you were potentially involved in this.
00:43:52.000Now, the DNA aspect of it is that I think they were trying to prove that the items couldn't have been something that wasn't associated with Tyler Robinson.
00:44:03.000Because if the towel was just found in the bushes, it could be anybody's towel.
00:44:07.000The towel could have been placed there by somebody else.
00:44:10.000But because Lance Twiggs and Tyler Robinson's DNA are on the items, it draws it.
00:44:16.000It draws the connection to Tyler Robinson because they live in the same place and the items must have come from his house.
00:44:22.000And so when you have the gun, you have, I mean, at least a screwdriver and a towel, both of those things associating the two individuals together would indicate that this couldn't have been external.
00:44:31.000This couldn't have been somebody planting it on Tyler Robinson and putting his DNA on there mysteriously.
00:44:37.000It had to have been something that came from a domain or dwelling that they both shared.
00:44:42.000And I think Lance Twiggs may have prepped some of this stuff for him.
00:44:47.000Which is probably how he got the partial immunity.
00:44:50.000And then he's going to testify against Tyler Robinson in court.
00:44:54.000One other thing here, real quick, and then I want to throw it to Joe Bob with this story that came out from inside the court and Erica.
00:45:00.000But, you know, I see people saying that, you know, is there any footage of the shooting and the prosecution saying no?
00:45:14.000What actually happened, and this is about the compilation video.
00:45:19.000They're asking it basically was there anything visible about the shooting in that video?
00:45:25.000And they said no in that specific exhibit.
00:45:28.000They were asking, Is there footage of the shooting in it?
00:45:31.000They said no, but even then, even then, we don't need to go for that far down it because we have footage of the same person showing up on campus repeatedly, him going into the position where our ballistics evidence and our video evidence suggest the bullet came from.
00:45:48.000He's there at the time the shooting happens, right?
00:45:51.000You don't need a video of someone firing a gun if you have every single piece of surrounding evidence supporting the idea that someone went there and shot a gun.
00:46:01.000So, to be clear, no, the prosecution did not say there's no footage of the shooting.
00:46:05.000The prosecution said the exhibit, which contains a compilation of surveillance footage of Robinson moving around on campus, didn't contain graphic footage of the shooting.
00:46:22.000Yeah, Andrew, I think you made an incredible point that I think if people weren't sitting in the courtroom, they wouldn't have understood this.
00:46:29.000The purpose of the clarification, and the prosecutor actually came back and clarified that there is video of the suspect getting on the roof, going to a prom position, and the shot is believed to be fired during that position.
00:46:42.000But they wanted to clarify so that Erica didn't have to be in the courtroom witnessing Charlie getting shot.
00:46:48.000So they were saying that it's not graphic in nature.
00:46:51.000So you're going to see the suspect get on the rooftop.
00:46:54.000He's going to get into a prone position in this area.
00:47:45.000You don't have a video of a guy who was identified by his parents going up the stairwell, getting into a prom position, admitting that he took the shot.
00:47:55.000The shot is being heard by multiple people at the same time.
00:47:58.000They even look back at the direction where the shot came from with a clear line of sight.
00:48:03.000You don't get all of that, and people have a doubt.
00:48:06.000It's going to be very clear with the totality of evidence, in my opinion, that he was 100% the one.
00:48:12.000And Lance Twiggs is going to be a The key in this case.
00:48:15.000And I think that as the pretrial continues, his testimony is going to get brought up.
00:48:20.000And I cannot wait to hear what he has to say.
00:48:23.000And I wouldn't imagine that if he's a witness for the state, he must be giving incriminating evidence that points to tolerance.
00:49:07.000No, it was, so during the trial, you're watching on screen, but there's obviously a lot of lulls and boring moments, for lack of a better term.
00:49:18.000And so I sometimes take the time and scroll through some of the live feeds on different newspaper websites.
00:49:23.000The New York Times has a live updated feed.
00:49:42.000This is a woman attending the hearing who says it's been emotional.
00:49:45.000Danae Branch, this is again, I'm reading from the Associated Press, who had lined up with friends at midnight.
00:49:52.000To get some of the few public seats in the courtroom, she said she teared up during the hearing, and Erica Kirk reached over and offered her a tissue.
00:50:02.000She says, She doesn't know if I'm Team Erica or not, yet she handed me a tissue and I lost it, Branch said during the lunch recess.
00:50:10.000She didn't know if I was a friend or not, and she showed love.
00:50:14.000And in the midst of all of this, in trying to sort through all of the stuff going on in the actual court, I couldn't help but just go, Isn't that Erica?
00:50:26.000Typical classic Erica and one for those of us who know her, yeah, it is Job, yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah, everybody that got this normal that know Erica, we're not shocked, you know, yeah, it's what she does.
00:50:41.000It's that's just so the first time that I saw Erica, you know, kind of face to face after all of this happened was backstage at a big event in Phoenix, and I, you know, I didn't know what to say, like, what do you say?
00:50:57.000I mean, obviously, I've talked to her before, but like, what do you say?
00:51:00.000And she's walking down the hall and goes out of her way.
00:51:03.000I think Andrew, you were there, breaks kind of the big pack that she's in, comes over and gives me a hug and says, Good to see you.
00:51:09.000And I lost it, but also that's just the person that she is.
00:51:15.000It's showing kindness and love to anybody in the vicinity who's willing to accept it.
00:53:06.000And correct me if I got any of this wrong, but you have quite the CV as a jury consultant.
00:53:12.000For those who are not familiar with her, she helped.
00:53:15.000She helped out with the OJ Simpson defense team with their jury selection, which a lot of people regard as quite the feat of jury selection.
00:53:24.000More recently, you advised Daniel Penny's defense team, the Kyle Rittenhouse defense team.
00:53:29.000So, involved in three of the most high profile trials that we've had.
00:53:35.000And we wanted to have you in because we're already looking ahead.
00:53:38.000This is a preliminary hearing, but we're looking ahead to the trial that we know will eventually be coming.
00:53:45.000And what sorts of strategies, even now?
00:53:48.000The prosecution and the defense might be looking towards because we know this is.
00:53:53.000And my main interest, Joellen, is just because this is the first high profile public assassination of a political figure in the social media era.
00:54:04.000And how does that change everything with all the conspiracies and stuff?
00:54:20.000What a lot of people don't know about my background is that actually, probably the first eight years of my career, I did capital cases in California.
00:54:31.000So I am intimately familiar with what is not only happening now in the preliminary hearing, but what will happen at trial.
00:54:41.000And as you know, and you've probably had guests that have shared, right now the responsibility is up to the judge.
00:54:50.000That the prosecution has to show probable cause, that the judge would then say, okay, I've seen enough probable cause, we'll move on to the trial.
00:54:59.000And of course, the trial is a whole different standard, the standard being reasonable doubt.
00:55:07.000So you're right, I think, Andrew, in talking about social media and the impact that that is going to have and is already having on the jury population in the state of Utah.
00:55:22.000You know, so many things are being said from both sides, all sides of the spectrum.
00:55:28.000And, you know, depending, I think, upon where you rest.
00:55:31.000Politically, you know, people are picking up on those things that tend to support what their political views are.
00:55:40.000You know, in a preliminary hearing, what's unusual certainly is that the defense does not have to put on any witnesses.
00:55:49.000They only have the ability to cross examine the witnesses.
00:55:54.000What to me is fascinating at this point is that the prosecution, I think, very adroitly has indicated.
00:56:03.000Pursuant to a rule 1102 in Utah, that they're going to be putting on Tyler's roommate via the video that he took while he was being investigated, so that the defense will not have that opportunity to cross examine him.
00:56:24.000Everything now is going to be viewed through that fine tooth comb called the camera in the courtroom.
00:56:32.000And I can certainly speak to cameras in the courtroom, certainly based on what we saw.
00:56:38.000In OJ, how, you know, my goodness, we had witnesses that were impacted by other witnesses and their testimony and reactions to the testimony.
00:56:49.000And now it's certainly just ballooned because of social media.
00:56:56.000So, what's happening right now in the jury pool?
00:56:59.000You know, I think to some degree, we all want to think this is captivating everybody's attention.
00:57:06.000I think it certainly is an important component of.
00:57:09.000What's happening in our society right now.
00:57:13.000But we tend to forget that the average person who isn't really up on what's happening in courtrooms and they're just concerned about how much they're paying for their gas or where their next meal is going to come from, they're not necessarily going to be glued to social media about this.
00:57:35.000Oh, I want to go at that a bit, Joellen, which is when we get to jury selection.
00:57:42.000What level of selection are they going to have here in terms of are they going to be trying to find people who are really oblivious, who maybe can't remember who Charlie Kirk even is?
00:58:08.000And I would certainly, and I say this to my clients, I think there's a level of perhaps misconduct by.
00:58:15.000Attorneys who don't use social media searches.
00:58:19.000What I'm worried about as a consultant, and I think any consultant who may be working on this case or weighing in about the case, is that someone who may have an agenda, a hidden agenda, they may choose to, if they find out they're being summoned for jury selection, they may sadly scrub their social media.
00:58:45.000If it has something that is favorable to Charlie or something that's favorable to Robinson.
00:58:54.000And that's where so much is going to go into the teams on both sides about a juror questionnaire to ask specific questions about knowledge about the case, to look at their social media, what their internet.
00:59:18.000And then judging all of that by what the oral responses are during the voidire process.
00:59:25.000What's interesting about a capital case is that there's two phases.
00:59:30.000The first is the guilt phase, the second is what we call the punishment phase.
00:59:35.000And that would be hypothetically, if the prosecution goes ahead and charges the death penalty, they would be questioned about their views about the death penalty.
00:59:47.000So there's a lot of layers to jury selection.
00:59:51.000That will occur, you know, if the judge sends this to trial.
00:59:57.000And certainly social media is a huge component of that for both sides.
01:00:03.000Joel, so I'm just curious kind of the sequence of events here.
01:00:09.000So a person gets a jury summons in the mail, they have to show up for, you know, to the court or whatever.
01:00:16.000At what point is, say, the state in this instance, the prosecutors, Aware of their jury pool that they have, and would they be aware that that person is going to be brought to, you know, sit in this instance, the Tyler Robinson trial before the juror does?
01:00:33.000So I'm getting to the point of would the juror even know they have time to scrub their social media account because they're thinking, oh, I'm going to get called for the Tyler Robinson trial?
01:00:42.000You know, a great, great question, Andrew.
01:00:48.000I can share with you that when I worked on the Enron case, obviously that's not capital punishment.
01:00:56.000But the summons were sent out to jurors.
01:01:00.000I want to say, like, gosh, two months, a month and a half before the actual trial.
01:01:06.000The questionnaires were then sent out by the court to the jurors.
01:01:12.000And we, the teams, were able then to review the questionnaires prior to ever seeing the jurors.
01:01:19.000So, your question as to when both sides would know who these people are.
01:01:26.000Is really going to be contingent upon the judge in this case and how he's going to proceed with the process.
01:01:33.000And I'm sure there will be motions on both sides about how that process should exist.
01:01:42.000Should it be that those people that are summoned receive a questionnaire in the mail, or in other cases, that hasn't happened until the jurors have actually showed up in the courtroom?
01:01:57.000Needless to say, I think the judge is very solemnly looking at all of these things and ultimately determining what is going to give the best information without being too invasive, I guess, to a juror's privacy, which in a death penalty case, you know, I don't see how you can be somewhat invasive.
01:02:24.000And John, I think you answered the question that the judge does have at his disposal.
01:02:29.000Different mechanisms to sort of kind of make sure that the jurors, potential jurors, don't even know what case it is that they're answering the questionnaire for or the timing of it, because that does seem like a concern.
01:02:42.000If I'm the defense, I'm probably going to want certain people to be following certain people on social media.
01:02:47.000If I'm the prosecution, I would want the opposite.
01:03:05.000Well, you know, the other part of this, Andrew and Blake, is that I suspect, I don't know for sure, But the defense may file what's known as a change of venue motion.
01:03:16.000And in a change of venue motion, you're saying to the court and to the prosecution, we cannot get a fair trial here.
01:03:38.000Obviously, there's a hearing, and whomever does the survey is brought in to testify.
01:03:45.000Should a judge decide, That in fact, there is enough evidence for a change of venue, the judge then has the discretion about where to move it to.
01:03:59.000It's very rare, very, very rare to have it moved out of state.
01:04:03.000What more traditionally happens is the trial would be moved to probably a contiguous county.
01:04:12.000The county that it's in right now, the judge may say, Well, we're going to move it to such and such a county, which is contiguous.
01:04:20.000Because you don't want to create a lot of problems for witnesses that would be coming in to testify.
01:04:29.000Would the judge stay put though on the trial, right?
01:04:33.000That wouldn't mean like a new judge gets appointed or something?
01:04:38.000No, the judge generally goes with, and that's one of the reasons that they choose contiguous counties because if you were to go from, I don't know, a county in northern Utah to something like down in St. George, You know, that might be problematic for the judge as well.
01:04:55.000So, everybody's, you know, everybody who's participating, all the witnesses, the lawyers, you know, all of that would be a factor, I think, in the judge's ultimate determination.
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01:06:32.000So there's a big elephant in the room with this case that we're all thinking about, which is besides the more direct questions of guilt or evidence with Tyler Robinson, we know there's been a lot of really weird conspiracy theories surrounding this case.
01:06:47.000People have been pushing them for the past year.
01:06:49.000People have been still pushing them as hard as ever over the past few days.
01:06:57.000Don't seem to have made many gestures in the direction of that.
01:07:00.000They did ask one of the witnesses if he was involved in the decision to pave over the site of the shooting, which there's been some discussion about.
01:07:09.000But there's not too much about exploding lapel pins, anything of that nature.
01:07:14.000And so I was wondering if you have thoughts.
01:07:16.000First of all, even if the defense aren't talking about that, is it possible that they'll be making maneuvers when we get to jury selection to make it possible for one of those people to get on a jury, someone who's not going to care about evidence?
01:07:31.000Someone who's going to believe really delusional things, someone who might have that agenda you mentioned.
01:07:37.000Well, let me just get me on the jury and I'll do what I feel like.
01:07:41.000I mean, the people that are kind of part of this, I mean, it's almost cult like in the way that they sort of believe the opposite of the facts, right?
01:07:50.000It doesn't matter what the facts say, you cannot convince them that there's anything to them.
01:07:56.000It's all fed slop, it's all narrative, right?
01:07:58.000Even though there's like DNA and fingerprints.
01:08:00.000And so, three things that I guess I'd get at, which is one, Is the defense thinking about this?
01:08:35.000They have to look at the crazy components that are out there and the not so crazy components that are out there.
01:08:43.000I mean, goodness, like in OJ, we remember hearing about the Colombian necklace during some of our meetings.
01:08:52.000So, suffice it to say, they are definitely looking at that.
01:08:56.000And I think that the prosecution is too.
01:08:58.000There's so many different issue areas that were I working with either side, I'd be looking at.
01:09:07.000I'd be looking at people's personal use and understanding of guns.
01:09:15.000I'd be looking at their views of law enforcement.
01:09:18.000I'd be looking at their views of First Amendment, free speech, oh my goodness, political views.
01:09:25.000And I think, and I don't know this to be the case, but I think that the defense has utilized a consultant in the past.
01:09:34.000I don't know the individual's name or the company name.
01:09:38.000But my guess would be that they're probably already taking a look at some of those issues, whether it's in surveys or focus groups.
01:09:48.000Certainly, I think both sides could certainly gain a lot of knowledge from that type of research.
01:09:57.000Yeah, you kind of wonder to Blake's point when they brought up the paving over of the crime scene, which again, something we learned about on the news, just like the witness that was testifying today.
01:10:09.000You sort of wonder, I don't know, just how much that has crept in to the psyche of the jury pool.
01:10:21.000And how do you find anybody in a case this high profile that is kind of.
01:10:26.000Dispassionately removed from it and is able to look at something objectively.
01:10:30.000I will tell you to something that you said we're so close to this.
01:10:35.000This is sort of all consuming all day.
01:10:40.000But when I go out in the real world and I talk with, you know, when me and my wife are hanging out with friends or whatever, they have no idea that, you know, I'm in a Twitter feud or, you know, something like that.
01:11:00.000What you're saying that there's a lot of people out there that are not tuning into this 24 7, you know, getting the full TikTok of it every day.
01:11:07.000So let's hope that there's still enough untainted potential jurors out there.
01:11:12.000Well, you know, for both sides' perspective, really the only thing that you can hope for is, you know, people will know about this.
01:11:21.000You hope and you pray during the process of jury selection and the trial that those 12 people ultimately that you do select.
01:11:31.000Are able to listen and only focus and only make their determination on the evidence that they've heard in the courtroom.
01:11:40.000And, you know, sadly, you know, we learn about bizarre things that happen all the time, like Alex Murdoch and what happened with the court clerk in that case influencing verdict.
01:11:53.000But I think hopefully that's the rarity.
01:11:57.000And I do believe that people take jury service seriously and they want to do the right thing.
01:12:06.000But now there are so many other factors that are out there.
01:12:09.000The one thing I can tell you for sure, though, is that this judge will very much protect the identity of those jurors and that jury panel when they come in.
01:12:23.000Well, first of all, you know, the media is never allowed to take photos or video of jurors.
01:12:29.000Secondly, if a questionnaire is used, only the number of the juror will be used.
01:12:37.000And sometimes a judge If they release the completed questionnaires, they will black out elements that might in some way identify them, like where they work, how many kids they have, something like that.
01:12:56.000So I can assure you, just based on what I've read about this judge, he will be very, very protective of these jurors.
01:13:05.000And you just hope that there isn't somebody that has a hidden agenda for either side that ends up coming in on this jury panel.
01:13:41.000So, traditionally, in this kind of case, you would want to be, from the prosecution's perspective, you know, clearly you want somebody who's law and order, somebody who doesn't necessarily believe in the credibility of the police, doesn't necessarily discount what their testimony may be.
01:14:01.000I suspect you would probably want somebody who has familiarity with weapons, rifles in particular.
01:14:11.000You're generally, I think, looking for older individuals.
01:14:14.000What's interesting here in Utah is the religiosity component of this case.
01:14:22.000And by that, I refer to the large number of LDS individuals who live in Utah.
01:14:30.000You know, I actually kind of was looking at this the other day.
01:14:37.000From what I understand, the LDS church does not have any public.
01:14:44.000They kind of leave it up to the individual, their individual congregation as to what would make up their mind.
01:14:55.000But clearly, the prosecution is going to want somebody, if in fact they do charge Tyler with the death penalty, they want somebody who's going to be supportive of that.
01:15:09.000On the other side, on the defense side, You're going to be looking for those individuals who, you know, opposite don't necessarily have the trust for the police.
01:15:22.000You're looking for individuals who don't have experience utilizing weapons that can be, you know, perhaps led by an expert in any way that they can.
01:15:36.000Also, I think politically, you're looking for people who are more liberal traditionally.
01:15:42.000In capital cases, that's what you're looking for.
01:15:47.000People who would have a difficult time themselves applying the death penalty.
01:15:53.000I mean, for me in this case, and what I know about this case, you know, I think from a defense perspective, they would be looking towards that second phase in terms of who are the people they're going to want to eliminate, who are the dangerous people to them, and who are the The people that might be favorable to them.
01:16:15.000So, just as a very general proposition, I think those are areas that both sides would be looking at.
01:16:35.000A really incredible insight, especially on how the judge can kind of protect the jury pool from knowing which case they're going to be a juror on and the social media.