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00:01:19.000We've been watching day four of the preliminary hearing, and there is a lot of back and forth going on about this video interview of Lance Twiggs.
00:01:30.000Remember, there was a lot of back and forth whether or not he should be subpoenaed to be in the courtroom.
00:01:43.000And apparently, I think when we get back, we're going to see the video.
00:01:47.000We're going to finally see some video.
00:01:49.000And we're going to see I guess we're going to find out are there any text messages they got that aren't what was already actually seen by the public 10 months ago?
00:01:59.000We saw a lot of trench warfare back and forth over this.
00:02:50.000I'd be making a lot more money if I were with a private firm.
00:02:53.000But, you know, your question is one that's on the minds of anybody who's watching.
00:02:57.000Why is it taking so long to show us the evidence?
00:02:59.000Here's the answer You heard different cases being cited by different sides, but factual dissimilarity carries the day under facts like this.
00:03:08.000This is not a case where something came out of the prison.
00:03:10.000It's not a case that is detailing a confession under different circumstances that may be.
00:03:15.000In one or both of those cases, this is factually distinct.
00:03:18.000It's the logic and the rationale that that judge had to consider.
00:03:22.000I'll bet he was up all night thinking about this, but both lawyers probably were as well.
00:03:26.000But this is the result that at least most people hope for in terms of transparency because we are going to get to see the video.
00:03:34.000Now, we're also going to have some redactions, but not nearly the extent that we were worried we're going to be imposed yesterday.
00:03:42.000Remember, that was the big frustrating day where everybody went home thinking, When are we going to get to actually see what Tyler Robinson said to the roommate, what he said on social media?
00:03:52.000And part of what the judge addressed today is how much have they already seen?
00:03:57.000Because if it's already out there to say, well, now we're not going to actually let it become evidence defeats the purpose.
00:04:03.000The purpose is to ensure the defendant gets a fair trial, making sure that when we get to trial, as we will, this is going to be a bind over.
00:04:11.000When we get to trial, the jury can only decide the defendant's guilt or innocence based on admissible evidence, not based on what they read online or heard commentators discussing.
00:04:21.000As soon as we get back, we're going to actually make this part of the public record so that everybody will be able to use it come time for trial.
00:04:29.000So, what was actually Agreed that it was going to be redacted here, Wendy.
00:04:34.000I got lost in the weeds trying to understand the arguments back and forth, but it seems like, as you mentioned, we're going to get more than we thought we might, right?
00:04:44.000There was, I think, a portion yesterday as I was reading, it was extensive.
00:04:53.000What did you hear from that final argument or that final ruling from the judge?
00:04:58.000The final ruling from the judge appeared to focus on private information of other people.
00:05:03.000When you redact something, and we've been doing this for 30 years in criminal law, you redact the personal information of people that were on the scene, victims, families.
00:05:13.000Sometimes we even redact the names of victims.
00:06:06.000So, okay, I'm just trying to make sense of this.
00:06:09.000Wendy here because essentially, as of today, like this morning, the redactions that the judge was suggesting were from timestamps 6 56 to 2027, 27 and 18 seconds to 27 and 25 seconds, 28 and 11 to 28 and 18, and then 32 55 to 35 48.
00:06:31.000I know that's a lot of numbers, but there were big chunks that he was taking out.
00:06:36.000Am I understanding you right that he put a lot of that back in?
00:06:40.000That I don't know because I don't know the text of the document.
00:06:50.000The problem is we don't understand what's in those sections.
00:06:54.000If we understood what was in those sections, as opposed to the page with the personal identifying information of the other person, we'd be in a lot better position to assess whether we think his ruling was right or wrong.
00:07:05.000And that characterizes the frustration inherent in a criminal trial where you have friends, loved ones, people that were victimized, people that are being re-traumatized in the court.
00:07:16.000Honestly, not having any idea what is redacted because that's the point of a redaction.
00:07:20.000But another good point has been raised in court this morning that lit up social media yesterday is what are they hiding?
00:07:27.000Now, the answer, the easy answer to that legally would not be so much it's being hidden, but being excluded in order to protect the integrity of a conviction.
00:07:36.000If you have a conviction that's based on evidence that a higher court rule should not have come into evidence, it gets reversed and you have to do the whole thing over again.
00:07:44.000And that means victims, supporters being re traumatized all over again.
00:07:48.000So, we don't know exactly what's in all the portions that are going to be redacted.
00:07:53.000It does seem, and I, like you, have been trying to follow numbers and pages.
00:07:58.000It does seem that perhaps there might be more of an inclination to show more of it after the extended case law discussion than yesterday.
00:08:07.000But I even want to watch and make sure that's true when this finally comes to light after the break.
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00:09:33.000Yeah, so it's a little bit unclear what we're actually going to see.
00:09:36.000It does sound like it's a lot of back and forth.
00:09:40.000He really emphasized the difference between the video, which they obtained after the arrest had been made, versus these text messages and notes and such.
00:09:50.000He's pointing out these are evidence they accumulated in the initial phase.
00:09:55.000Their supposed communications from the defendant himself rather than the testimony against him.
00:10:00.000It sounds like there's literally Supreme Court cases distinguishing between video and text.
00:10:17.000No offense, Wendy, but it's a pathetic commentary on our justice system when a lawyer for a killer alleged can even make an argument to a judge to keep out text messages.
00:10:29.000Admitting to a killing because it, quote, prejudices my client.
00:10:33.000The judge should have said no immediately and then shamed the phony lawyer for wasting the public's time and money.
00:10:39.000I can't say that, as somebody that's personally connected to this, that I disagree, obviously.
00:10:45.000I understand that this judge has to balance things.
00:10:48.000He's probably balancing a potential appeal, he's making sure that he doesn't trip up on any technicality that the defense is trying to throw in front of him.
00:10:56.000That Novak guy, by the way, apparently is some big.
00:11:00.000Hot shot from Southern California that they've brought in and is getting a lot of money for this, which is interesting.
00:11:06.000Um, I'm just finding this out this morning.
00:11:47.000Not is it prejudicial or we wouldn't have trials, nothing would be admitted.
00:11:50.000So that is why you had this back and forth, extended back and forth about case law and under what circumstances and under what factual scenarios is that burden met.
00:13:32.000And we understand you have to balance, but at a minimum, this courtroom needs to be open for the evidence to be displayed openly in this courtroom, for them to see it.
00:13:43.000The Utah Constitution gives them the right to be here and to be here and not to see the evidence.
00:14:29.000First big assassination since RFK 50 years ago.
00:14:33.000And as a result, we also saw that in the text pleading that they also filed with the court overnight.
00:14:40.000They're just saying we actually have a desperate need for transparency in this case that goes beyond almost any other case we've seen because the ways they're running wild with stuff that it turned out is totally groundless.
00:15:21.000Couldn't you make the argument, Wendy, that it's prejudicial not to sort of fill these voids, these vacuums that have been created by this 10 month waiting process?
00:15:30.000Isn't it prejudicial to a potential jury pool?
00:15:32.000To not give them the facts of why he's being charged and why they're seeking the death penalty in this case.
00:15:40.000Yeah, and that's what prelims are for.
00:15:42.000And that's what a trial is going to be about.
00:15:44.000It's going to be about the evidence, not conspiracy theories.
00:15:47.000All of this would have been trotted out anyway because all of it is relevant to prove the case.
00:15:55.000There's no evidence backing those theories.
00:15:57.000What happens in court is evidence, unlike the court of public opinion.
00:16:01.000So you had yesterday and even the beginning of the week, we had ballistics, we had DNA, we had video footage, we had him turning himself in in the same clothes he was wearing in one of the pieces of video footage.
00:16:12.000We have a very calm presentation, although we just saw it from behind, of what it was like when he was arrested.
00:16:22.000All of that is geared towards establishing that he committed this crime.
00:16:26.000And that's going to be what today is about as well.
00:16:29.000And as far as the conspiracy theories, one of the things the judge is going to do in Bois Dyer when we get to trial is ensure that anybody that is selected for the jury can be fair.
00:16:37.000That means this is going to be asked about.
00:16:39.000He's not going to publish the theories, but he's going to ask those jurors.
00:16:45.000Do you have any preconceived notions about this case designed to get to exactly what both of you are pointing out?
00:16:51.000That this case cannot be tried by what's happening and what's being stated in the court and public opinion, only what's introduced in a court of law.
00:17:00.000That's what we're doing in this probable cause hearing.
00:17:05.000And I just go back to the fact that by refusing to admit certain evidence, which the defense is pushing for, even in a preliminary hearing, You could make the argument that that is prejudicial against the victim's rights here because, again, the conspiracies and the internet are filling all the voids when the court refuses to fill them.
00:17:24.000So, this is a portion from the brief that was filed by, I believe, Jeffrey Nyman, who we just saw on that.
00:17:35.000It said the victim's family's position is simple.
00:17:37.000At a minimum, every exhibit entered into evidence during the preliminary hearing must be visible to every person lawfully present in the courtroom.
00:17:44.000To receive evidence in a matter shielded from those seated in the courtroom, It's happened today, is not transparency.
00:17:50.000And in the absence of transparency, speculation and conspiracy theories related to the tragic assassination of Mr. Kirk will continue to proliferate in the public domain, breeding doubt and distrust in the judicial system.
00:18:21.000Anytime we say, well, you know, in this very charged environment, this emotionally charged environment where we have all these theories out there, to say that we're not going to release evidence is necessarily and definitely going to fuel those theories.
00:18:34.000You know, and it is also true that victims have a significant amount of rights.
00:18:40.000Nobody can argue that why, you know, in a perfect world, everybody would get to see all the evidence, and especially the Kirk family and friends and the beloved supporters that are there.
00:18:53.000With one thing that both of you agreed on earlier, we haven't seen a prelim like this.
00:18:58.000You had the assassination of an absolutely beloved icon, just a somebody that could have been president of the United States.
00:19:05.000It's a case that transcends so many different fact patterns under similar crime statutes.
00:19:10.000It's just different every way you think about it.
00:19:13.000And in that environment, to have evidence that is not admitted to have, evidence that is redacted, is going to be scrutinized far more seriously, which is why I have to imagine That, between the probable cause hearing, whatever the rulings end up being, whatever is redacted, and the trial, that the prosecution and the media lawyers will probably continue to push for that transparency.
00:19:39.000Remember that this sort of came up at the 11th hour.
00:19:58.000Wendy, it seems like they're really taking their time here, bringing the public in.
00:20:02.000We did check the transcript, and he said they're reentering the courtroom as slowly as we've gone through everything else in this preliminary here.
00:20:13.000What's about to happen is we're finally going to see several pieces of evidence that contain statements that are attributed directly to Tyler Robinson.
00:20:20.000It's going to be the first time we've actually seen that in a court of law.
00:20:24.000We're going to see that in different formats.
00:20:25.000We're going to talk about text messages.
00:20:27.000We're going to hopefully hear from the roommate.
00:20:29.000After that, we'll no doubt also hear some argument about how much more, if any, we can see.
00:20:36.000And I have to say, the reason I'm glad we're finally getting started is the judge made clear this is over tomorrow at 5 p.m.
00:22:13.000Barnes Law LLP and co host of Viva and Barnes, thank you for joining us.
00:22:18.000Robert, what do you make of what just happened?
00:22:20.000I don't know if you were watching the hearing just there.
00:22:24.000Jack Posobic, who's in the courtroom or at least around it, He said that huge reversal that the judge is now going to admit more of this Lance Twiggs video recording.
00:22:34.000Is that how you read what we just saw?
00:22:36.000Yeah, and I think what the judge is trying to balance is the defendant's rights to an impartial jury, which is influenced by pretrial prejudicial publicity, against the victim's rights to substantially participate and to observe all meaningful hearings under Utah constitutional and state law, as well as the U.S. and state constitutional rights of the media to have access to public court proceedings.
00:23:02.000And the public's right to have open access to the courts under the First Amendment's rights to petition the government for redress of grievances, in which that constitutional right encompasses that.
00:23:13.000I think courts usually make the mistake of favoring secrecy and favoring sealing proceedings over public transparency because they're more worried about the defendant's pretrial publicity prejudice than they are the prejudice to not allowing full, complete, open access to particularly high profile cases where it is really necessary for the public.
00:23:36.000To have confidence in whatever outcome is procured through that judicial process.
00:23:41.000And I think for a very young judge, he's actually doing a better job than is normal, honestly, for judges of that type.
00:23:48.000Usually their lack of age, they default to, hey, let's keep things secret, let's keep things sealed, because that's what the defendant wants, and overreaching in that capacity.
00:24:00.000Because there's an easy way to resolve the pretrial publicity issue, because that's only about the jury selection and the impartiality of the jury.
00:24:10.000Questioning to make sure there's nobody on that jury who has undue pretrial publicity prejudice.
00:24:17.000This is particularly true when it's evidence that is likely to be admitted at trial.
00:24:21.000Like your concern for pretrial publicity is evidence that is not likely to be introduced at trial that has a limited purpose, say in a preliminary hearing context, could get out to the jury in ways when it won't be admitted into evidence at trial.
00:24:35.000When you're talking about evidence that the jury's going to see anyway, there's no reason for being concerned about that prejudice in the jury.
00:24:43.000Is there a difference, though, because in the actual trial, Twiggs would presumably be called in person, and this is a video recording of it?
00:24:52.000Does that distinction factor into the judge's decision here?
00:24:55.000Because, yeah, it will be seen at trial, but it will be cross examined.
00:24:59.000And that's part of the defense's argument.
00:25:00.000The defense's argument is that some of this evidence may be sufficient to meet the preliminary hearing admissibility evidentiary standard, but not the trial evidentiary standard.
00:25:14.000The defense has a plausible claim as to why they want to exclude this.
00:25:18.000I think their main motivation may be different, but I think they do have a plausible basis for this.
00:25:24.000I saw Rick Rinnell and some other people complaining about the defense lawyer.
00:25:28.000They're just doing their job and their advocacy constitutionally, which we want them to do because we want to have confidence in the outcome of the case.
00:25:34.000We want the defense to be very robust, to have full capability and confidence that they can do this.
00:25:45.000Like, isn't the defense conceding that they believe that this evidence is really damning by constantly throwing up objections and fighting full transparency?
00:25:59.000I mean, there is a possibility there may be some evidentiary vulnerability in some of this evidence that they truly think they'll be able to exclude from the trial presentation.
00:26:07.000But the, and some of this is definitely for the cameras because they have a standing objection.
00:26:12.000When you have a standing objection, you don't have to repeat your objection during the hearing.
00:26:15.000And they're repeating their objection.
00:26:17.000So they're doing this because they know.
00:26:18.000They're defending him in the court of public opinion as well as the court of law, which in a high profile case, that's part of a defense counsel's job.
00:26:28.000And I get people unhappy with that, but we want that to be the case.
00:26:31.000We want to believe the defense lawyer defended them every which way they possibly could so that we can have confidence when I think what this case will ultimately secure is a conviction.
00:26:39.000They've already met their preliminary hearing standard with ease for probable cause purposes.
00:26:44.000I see a lot of incorrect, confusing, mistaken views out there that this is the trial, it's not.
00:26:52.000Tyler Robinson is being afforded more due process than 99.9% of all criminal defendants across the country and around the world.
00:26:59.000The most criminal defendants in the federal system never get a preliminary hearing.
00:27:02.000Even the ones that get it at a state level typically get far less discovery, far fewer witnesses testifying, don't get to see the underlying exhibits themselves, don't get to see audio and video in this capacity, don't get to test it in front of the public, in front of the whole world, and the court of public opinion, not just the court of law.
00:27:19.000They don't get a sneak peek preview of what these witnesses' credibility would look like.
00:27:25.000This court has gone out of its way to afford Tyler Robinson more due process, more discovery, more evidentiary capability to be able to explore and develop their defenses than almost any criminal defendant in the country gets.
00:27:52.000Is this something where this could, in theory, happen?
00:27:55.000In any murder case, but usually the attorneys don't really feel like maxing it out.
00:28:02.000What's the key driver of why this has been able to go as long as it has?
00:28:06.000Who's making the decisions that decide that?
00:28:08.000So, the primary mover of delaying this through this entire process, the primary mover of trying to withhold documents and information from the public is both the defense counsel.
00:28:18.000And it's in the defense counsel's interest to do so when that evidence is damaging.
00:28:22.000As to your point, Andrew, it's implicitly very damaging for them to go.
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00:31:11.000It reconfirmed exchanges we saw really just in the first week after the shooting.
00:31:17.000Released a lot of the text messages between Tyler and Lance, but this confirmed it.
00:31:23.000We got to see the actual image of the phone exchange where we'd seen only a transcript before, and we saw a few pieces that had been left out before.
00:31:31.000They occasionally jumped through it before.
00:31:34.000One that stood out to me, he was saying, If I'm not able to retrieve this gun, this is allegedly Tyler was saying this, if I'm not able to retrieve this gun, I don't know how I could replace it.
00:31:44.000My grandpa had done some modifications, some work on it, and that gets To another one of the conspiracy theories we've seen, which is that it couldn't have been this Mauser 98 rifle because the Mauser 98 rifle has a type of safety on it that's difficult to use with a scope.
00:32:00.000But some of our friends have looked into this, those ballistics experts, gun experts, have looked into this.
00:32:30.000I'm going to play this video because one of the things that I've been seeing online is you know, the people are alleging that the images of Tyler Robinson from the surveillance footage, that compilation video yesterday, were not Tyler Robinson.
00:32:44.000And we had a very relevant exchange between the investigator and Twigs in this video recording where they talk about just this.
00:33:52.000This is a press release about this event.
00:33:56.000And here on the screen, you see these, it looks like there's two rows of three images.
00:34:01.000Do you recognize the person in these images?
00:34:07.000I wouldn't say with 100% certainty just because of camera quality, but that looks like him in terms of the shoes he's wearing, the sunglasses.
00:34:16.000I don't think I'd specifically seen him wearing that hat, but he was usually wearing a hat.
00:34:21.000Um, and then jeans, so it definitely, especially the bottom, the last two definitely do look like him.
00:34:35.000Oh, they do look like Tyler Robinson, Jay.
00:34:40.000Um, speak to this from a legal perspective.
00:35:46.000I mean, he knew an awful lot about where the gun was, that there was a scope on that rifle, on the Mauser, and that he might have fingerprints on it.
00:35:57.000And is right where he's talking about the area where they're exactly where they found that murder weapon.
00:36:03.000I mean, that is just damning evidence.
00:36:07.000And admissions are absolutely the best evidence a prosecutor can hope for.
00:36:12.000I have prosecuted or investigated hundreds of homicides in my career and death penalty cases as well.
00:36:19.000I can tell you the evidence in this case is as strong as I have seen.
00:36:24.000And there is no mental health defense here that the defense is trying to put forward.
00:36:29.000If there was, Then they would just concede it all and say, yeah, but he was crazy.
00:36:33.000No, they're fighting tooth and nail about every single item because they know the more that happens, the more the public knows, the more the future jury pool knows.
00:36:42.000This is no case is a layup, no case is a slam dunk, but this is as good as it's going to get for any state, for any prosecution in a homicide case.
00:36:53.000Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty definitive statement, Jay.
00:37:48.000And remember, YRefi doesn't care what your credit score is.
00:37:51.000Just go to YRefi.com and tell them your friend Andrew sent you.
00:37:58.000I am curious about this limited immunity for Lance Twiggs.
00:38:03.000You know, I would, you know, just full transparency reading some of that stuff where he's talking about, hey, drive safe, you know, after he's just, you know, Confessed to a murder, you know, and they're kind of going back and forth.
00:38:18.000You know, the fact that I don't know, it's just, it was infuriating to watch that portion of it because it does seem like hours went by where Lance Twiggs was aware of what happened and he did nothing about it.
00:38:32.000So, can you break down what that limited immunity would be?
00:38:47.000So if suddenly he changes and says something that is exculpatory to Tyler Robinson, then he could be stripped of that immunity and be prosecuted for any crimes to include perjury.
00:39:01.000Now, look, that's not going to happen.
00:39:04.000He knows he's never going to see Tyler Robinson again.
00:39:06.000Tyler Robinson was counting on Twiggs being able to keep this secret with him for the rest of his life.
00:40:29.000And it was that politics that drove Tyler Robinson to do what he did.
00:40:34.000That's exactly the death aggravator that the state is seeking the death penalty upon.
00:40:39.000We mentioned whether he's telling the full truth.
00:40:43.000The part of that testimony that stood out to a lot of people is he says, Twiggs says, that they didn't talk about politics much, that he'd never heard Tyler bring up Charlie Kirk specifically by name before.
00:40:56.000And it gets me wondering first of all, is that fully true?
00:41:00.000Or if it is true, then are we still looking for that nexus that was driving Tyler to actually do this?
00:41:11.000Was there another Discord group that we don't know about?
00:41:14.000Yeah, he did mention that when he talked about politics, Tyler was usually talking about Trump.
00:41:33.000If he was in another Discord group that they haven't found yet, perhaps, maybe that's where he was getting nudged towards this violent act if it wasn't really coming from his roommate.
00:41:45.000I mean, look, they're going to keep looking.
00:41:47.000Cash for telling the FBI are going to use every tool they can to determine if there was a second sort of Discord swing or string or any other type of application that he was on and he was being sort of radicalized.
00:42:01.000But I actually think the simplest explanation is the truth here.
00:42:06.000I'll confess to murder to you, but I won't confess about this second string or thread on a different app.
00:42:13.000It seems to me that he was, I believe that he didn't discuss Charlie much at all with him simply because Trump was enough, right?
00:42:24.000This is exactly what Trump derangement syndrome does to people, those closest to him are just as big a target.
00:42:32.000And who's closer than Charlie Kirk, right?
00:42:34.000I mean, Charlie Kirk had everything to do with Trump getting back into office, everything to do with it.
00:42:40.000And, you know, I had the opportunity to take Charlie Kirk out, meaning Charlie was in Utah at a university just a few hours away from Tyler Robinson.
00:43:21.000Look, this is very personal for you guys to sit and watch this, as it is for Erica and the family, and so many people that love Charlie.
00:43:28.000But it takes a lot of courage, it takes guts to sit there and have to watch it and be objective still because you have every right to be angry.
00:43:36.000So I appreciate what you guys are doing by watching the whole thing, reporting it back, being as objective as you can, bringing the truth out.