The Charlie Kirk Show - July 09, 2026


Tyler Robinson Preliminary Hearing: Day 4

Topics
video interview of Lance Twiggs text messages admissions with Twiggs Charlie Kirk derangement syndrome
Hosted by
Andrew Kolvet
Mentioned
Tyler Robinson Wendy Patrick Robert Barnes Refi Jeff Nyman Trump John Doe Lance Twiggs Erica Kirk YRefi.com Mauser Barnes Law LLP Rick Grinnell Jack Posobiec Rick Rinnell Jim Carrey Bois Dyer Jay Town Ash LLP Twigs
Tyler Robinson Hearing Aftermath: Day 2 Tyler Robinson Hearing Aftermath: Day 4

Episode Stats


Length

43 minutes

Words per minute

176.7

Word count

7,766

Sentence count

544

Harmful content

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

On day four of the preliminary hearing, we finally get to see the entire video recording of the interview with Lance Twiggs. The defense and prosecution are fighting over whether or not they should be allowed to use it, and the judge has finally ruled in favor of allowing them to do so. Today's episode features Wendy Patrick, who has been all over the media covering this case and has been covering it for years. She joins us to talk about why it's taking so long to get the evidence and why the defense is fighting so hard to keep it redacted.

Transcript

Transcripts from "The Charlie Kirk Show" are sourced from the Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool. Explore them interactively here.
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.
00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.
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00:01:17.000 All right.
00:01:17.000 Welcome back, everybody.
00:01:19.000 We've been watching day four of the preliminary hearing, and there is a lot of back and forth going on about this video interview of Lance Twiggs.
00:01:30.000 Remember, there was a lot of back and forth whether or not he should be subpoenaed to be in the courtroom.
00:01:36.000 The judge ruled against that.
00:01:37.000 So they were allowed to use this video recording.
00:01:39.000 Now there's redactions.
00:01:41.000 They're taking a quick break.
00:01:43.000 And apparently, I think when we get back, we're going to see the video.
00:01:47.000 We're going to finally see some video.
00:01:49.000 And we're going to see I guess we're going to find out are there any text messages they got that aren't what was already actually seen by the public 10 months ago?
00:01:59.000 We saw a lot of trench warfare back and forth over this.
00:02:02.000 It feels remarkable to me, Andrew.
00:02:04.000 Like, I feel you could reduce all the arguments they make to a couple paragraphs.
00:02:09.000 And you can read it.
00:02:11.000 But it takes hours of back and forth.
00:02:13.000 Here to help us unpack some of the legal maneuvering here is Wendy Patrick, attorney and partner, Sam and Ash LLP.
00:02:19.000 She has been all over the Real America's Voice airways, covering this extensively.
00:02:24.000 We're honored to have her here.
00:02:25.000 Wendy, welcome to the show.
00:02:27.000 What do you make of this back and forth?
00:02:29.000 I mean, we're getting there's this case, Rideau or whatever.
00:02:33.000 My French is terrible too, actually.
00:02:35.000 So there's also they're mentioning Estes, it looks like.
00:02:41.000 So please unpack what.
00:02:43.000 The details are being argued about here.
00:02:46.000 Definitely.
00:02:46.000 I'll do so as a prosecutor and former defense attorney.
00:02:49.000 I appreciate the promotion.
00:02:50.000 I'd be making a lot more money if I were with a private firm.
00:02:53.000 But, you know, your question is one that's on the minds of anybody who's watching.
00:02:57.000 Why is it taking so long to show us the evidence?
00:02:59.000 Here's the answer You heard different cases being cited by different sides, but factual dissimilarity carries the day under facts like this.
00:03:08.000 This is not a case where something came out of the prison.
00:03:10.000 It's not a case that is detailing a confession under different circumstances that may be.
00:03:15.000 In one or both of those cases, this is factually distinct.
00:03:18.000 It's the logic and the rationale that that judge had to consider.
00:03:22.000 I'll bet he was up all night thinking about this, but both lawyers probably were as well.
00:03:26.000 But this is the result that at least most people hope for in terms of transparency because we are going to get to see the video.
00:03:34.000 Now, we're also going to have some redactions, but not nearly the extent that we were worried we're going to be imposed yesterday.
00:03:42.000 Remember, that was the big frustrating day where everybody went home thinking, When are we going to get to actually see what Tyler Robinson said to the roommate, what he said on social media?
00:03:52.000 And part of what the judge addressed today is how much have they already seen?
00:03:57.000 Because if it's already out there to say, well, now we're not going to actually let it become evidence defeats the purpose.
00:04:03.000 The purpose is to ensure the defendant gets a fair trial, making sure that when we get to trial, as we will, this is going to be a bind over.
00:04:11.000 When we get to trial, the jury can only decide the defendant's guilt or innocence based on admissible evidence, not based on what they read online or heard commentators discussing.
00:04:21.000 As soon as we get back, we're going to actually make this part of the public record so that everybody will be able to use it come time for trial.
00:04:29.000 So, what was actually Agreed that it was going to be redacted here, Wendy.
00:04:34.000 I got lost in the weeds trying to understand the arguments back and forth, but it seems like, as you mentioned, we're going to get more than we thought we might, right?
00:04:44.000 There was, I think, a portion yesterday as I was reading, it was extensive.
00:04:50.000 It was like the lion's share.
00:04:52.000 It's like about half of it.
00:04:53.000 What did you hear from that final argument or that final ruling from the judge?
00:04:58.000 The final ruling from the judge appeared to focus on private information of other people.
00:05:03.000 When you redact something, and we've been doing this for 30 years in criminal law, you redact the personal information of people that were on the scene, victims, families.
00:05:13.000 Sometimes we even redact the names of victims.
00:05:15.000 They're Jane Doe, John Doe.
00:05:17.000 But in this particular document, apparently online, there was some reference to somebody else, including personal identifying information.
00:05:24.000 There is no problem with redacting that.
00:05:26.000 And there didn't appear to be an argument about that.
00:05:28.000 What I found stunning is that between today and yesterday, as you mentioned, there appears to be less redactions.
00:05:35.000 Asked for.
00:05:36.000 And that's going to satisfy everyone.
00:05:38.000 Most importantly, Erica Kirk and the Kirk family.
00:05:41.000 You know, one of the lawyers said just now in court, why are we here if we're not going to get to see the evidence?
00:05:46.000 And it appears that the judge overnight did read his case law, did his due diligence, and is prepared to admit evidence.
00:05:53.000 Remember, that must have been on his mind when he ruled these proceedings could not only be public, but live streamed.
00:06:00.000 So this is in the vein of transparency.
00:06:03.000 Good.
00:06:03.000 So the judge ruled more in our favor.
00:06:06.000 What now?
00:06:06.000 So, okay, I'm just trying to make sense of this.
00:06:09.000 Wendy here because essentially, as of today, like this morning, the redactions that the judge was suggesting were from timestamps 6 56 to 2027, 27 and 18 seconds to 27 and 25 seconds, 28 and 11 to 28 and 18, and then 32 55 to 35 48.
00:06:31.000 I know that's a lot of numbers, but there were big chunks that he was taking out.
00:06:36.000 Am I understanding you right that he put a lot of that back in?
00:06:40.000 That I don't know because I don't know the text of the document.
00:06:43.000 That's why we're all here.
00:06:44.000 We want to know, you know, what does it say?
00:06:46.000 What does the footage show?
00:06:48.000 What can we see?
00:06:49.000 What can we hear?
00:06:50.000 The problem is we don't understand what's in those sections.
00:06:54.000 If we understood what was in those sections, as opposed to the page with the personal identifying information of the other person, we'd be in a lot better position to assess whether we think his ruling was right or wrong.
00:07:04.000 But we don't know what's there.
00:07:05.000 And that characterizes the frustration inherent in a criminal trial where you have friends, loved ones, people that were victimized, people that are being re-traumatized in the court.
00:07:16.000 Honestly, not having any idea what is redacted because that's the point of a redaction.
00:07:20.000 But another good point has been raised in court this morning that lit up social media yesterday is what are they hiding?
00:07:27.000 Now, the answer, the easy answer to that legally would not be so much it's being hidden, but being excluded in order to protect the integrity of a conviction.
00:07:36.000 If you have a conviction that's based on evidence that a higher court rule should not have come into evidence, it gets reversed and you have to do the whole thing over again.
00:07:44.000 And that means victims, supporters being re traumatized all over again.
00:07:48.000 So, we don't know exactly what's in all the portions that are going to be redacted.
00:07:53.000 It does seem, and I, like you, have been trying to follow numbers and pages.
00:07:58.000 It does seem that perhaps there might be more of an inclination to show more of it after the extended case law discussion than yesterday.
00:08:07.000 But I even want to watch and make sure that's true when this finally comes to light after the break.
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00:09:33.000 Yeah, so it's a little bit unclear what we're actually going to see.
00:09:36.000 It does sound like it's a lot of back and forth.
00:09:40.000 He really emphasized the difference between the video, which they obtained after the arrest had been made, versus these text messages and notes and such.
00:09:50.000 He's pointing out these are evidence they accumulated in the initial phase.
00:09:55.000 Their supposed communications from the defendant himself rather than the testimony against him.
00:10:00.000 It sounds like there's literally Supreme Court cases distinguishing between video and text.
00:10:07.000 It just seems like a nightmare.
00:10:08.000 It makes me glad I'm not a lawyer.
00:10:09.000 Yeah, exactly.
00:10:11.000 On that note, I have a tweet from Richard Grinnell here that I think is interesting.
00:10:15.000 He goes, I'm proudly not a lawyer.
00:10:17.000 No offense, Wendy, but it's a pathetic commentary on our justice system when a lawyer for a killer alleged can even make an argument to a judge to keep out text messages.
00:10:29.000 Admitting to a killing because it, quote, prejudices my client.
00:10:33.000 The judge should have said no immediately and then shamed the phony lawyer for wasting the public's time and money.
00:10:38.000 Justice should be swift.
00:10:39.000 I can't say that, as somebody that's personally connected to this, that I disagree, obviously.
00:10:45.000 I understand that this judge has to balance things.
00:10:48.000 He's probably balancing a potential appeal, he's making sure that he doesn't trip up on any technicality that the defense is trying to throw in front of him.
00:10:56.000 That Novak guy, by the way, apparently is some big.
00:11:00.000 Hot shot from Southern California that they've brought in and is getting a lot of money for this, which is interesting.
00:11:06.000 Um, I'm just finding this out this morning.
00:11:08.000 I, that's what I've seen.
00:11:11.000 I, I, I didn't know much about him, but that's what I've been the defense.
00:11:15.000 Every person has a right to a trial and to hire an attorney, so I don't want to fuss that too much.
00:11:19.000 But it does feel like a slow motion version.
00:11:21.000 You ever see the uh Jim Carrey comedy, Liar, Liar?
00:11:25.000 Yeah, yeah, I object, Your Honor.
00:11:26.000 On what grounds?
00:11:27.000 It's devastating to my case, yeah, exactly.
00:11:30.000 There's a difference if being prejudicial is the nature of evidence in a criminal case, it's all prejudicial.
00:11:35.000 Exactly.
00:11:36.000 Here's the argument undue prejudice, unduly prejudicial.
00:11:41.000 In other words, the enormous prejudice outweighs the probative value.
00:11:46.000 That's the legal standard.
00:11:47.000 Not is it prejudicial or we wouldn't have trials, nothing would be admitted.
00:11:50.000 So that is why you had this back and forth, extended back and forth about case law and under what circumstances and under what factual scenarios is that burden met.
00:12:00.000 That's what they were arguing about.
00:12:02.000 And that's, as you mentioned, something that the general public wouldn't know.
00:12:05.000 There's no way you would know.
00:12:06.000 That's evidence code, it's in the weeds, but you can understand why you'd have a legal test like that.
00:12:12.000 And that's what the judge was grappling with.
00:12:14.000 I only wish he made a clearer record so that everybody watching.
00:12:17.000 Would have a better understanding as to why he makes the decisions he did.
00:12:21.000 Thank God we are going to get to see a lot of it today.
00:12:25.000 I have no doubt on the other side we'll be breaking down what we wish we would have seen, but what we think about what was admissible.
00:12:32.000 Now, also, this is not the end of the line.
00:12:33.000 This is a probable cause hearing.
00:12:35.000 Between now and trial, my guess is both sides will continue to litigate this.
00:12:39.000 Maybe even more will be admissible in trial.
00:12:43.000 Wow.
00:12:45.000 It's difficult to exactly.
00:12:48.000 I mean, we just don't, we just kind of don't know.
00:12:51.000 And that's how much we're going to get.
00:12:53.000 Let's go ahead and play some clips here, Wendy, and just make sure we're all on the same page here.
00:12:57.000 First, I'm going to put Kirk family representative Jeffrey Nyman.
00:13:02.000 He's asking for transparency.
00:13:04.000 I thought it was well said.
00:13:05.000 Sop three.
00:13:07.000 Good morning, Your Honor.
00:13:07.000 Jeffrey Nyman on behalf of the Kirk family.
00:13:10.000 And we appreciate the court is trying to balance here, but the Kirk family's waited 10 months for this hearing.
00:13:18.000 And they have a right to be here, and they have a right to hear the evidence.
00:13:22.000 They have a right to see and feel what's going on in this courtroom, just like they want to understand, Judge, what you are viewing.
00:13:29.000 They want to see the evidence.
00:13:32.000 And we understand you have to balance, but at a minimum, this courtroom needs to be open for the evidence to be displayed openly in this courtroom, for them to see it.
00:13:43.000 The Utah Constitution gives them the right to be here and to be here and not to see the evidence.
00:13:49.000 What's the point of being here?
00:13:51.000 We ask you to let the evidence be seen in the courtroom, please.
00:13:56.000 Thank you for your time.
00:13:57.000 Thank you, counsel.
00:13:59.000 It really is an important statement he's giving there.
00:14:01.000 And it's good to remind ourselves we're in a particularly important case.
00:14:07.000 Almost, it feels unprecedented to me.
00:14:10.000 There have been high profile criminal cases, there have been criminal cases where there's debates about guilt or innocence.
00:14:17.000 But I don't think I've ever seen a case that has this much injection of conspiracy theory fervor before it even goes to trial.
00:14:27.000 Social media.
00:14:29.000 First big assassination since RFK 50 years ago.
00:14:33.000 And as a result, we also saw that in the text pleading that they also filed with the court overnight.
00:14:40.000 They're just saying we actually have a desperate need for transparency in this case that goes beyond almost any other case we've seen because the ways they're running wild with stuff that it turned out is totally groundless.
00:14:55.000 We've got, we had all those claims.
00:14:56.000 Tyler's wasn't even on campus.
00:14:58.000 And so they have to trot out.
00:15:00.000 Actually, here's all this footage where he is on campus.
00:15:02.000 They're trotting out.
00:15:03.000 Actually, he never turned himself in.
00:15:05.000 So we need them to trot out.
00:15:07.000 Yes, actually, he was in custody at 9 p.m.
00:15:09.000 We sent this police officer down.
00:15:12.000 Stuff that you would never feel needed to be emphasized in most criminal cases really needs to be put on display for the public.
00:15:20.000 It's such a good point.
00:15:21.000 Couldn't you make the argument, Wendy, that it's prejudicial not to sort of fill these voids, these vacuums that have been created by this 10 month waiting process?
00:15:30.000 Isn't it prejudicial to a potential jury pool?
00:15:32.000 To not give them the facts of why he's being charged and why they're seeking the death penalty in this case.
00:15:40.000 Yeah, and that's what prelims are for.
00:15:42.000 And that's what a trial is going to be about.
00:15:44.000 It's going to be about the evidence, not conspiracy theories.
00:15:47.000 All of this would have been trotted out anyway because all of it is relevant to prove the case.
00:15:50.000 And it's interesting.
00:15:51.000 I've read the same theories you have.
00:15:53.000 Sometimes people email them to me.
00:15:55.000 There's no evidence backing those theories.
00:15:57.000 What happens in court is evidence, unlike the court of public opinion.
00:16:01.000 So you had yesterday and even the beginning of the week, we had ballistics, we had DNA, we had video footage, we had him turning himself in in the same clothes he was wearing in one of the pieces of video footage.
00:16:12.000 We have a very calm presentation, although we just saw it from behind, of what it was like when he was arrested.
00:16:18.000 There wasn't any bullying.
00:16:19.000 There wasn't a flickering light.
00:16:22.000 All of that is geared towards establishing that he committed this crime.
00:16:26.000 And that's going to be what today is about as well.
00:16:29.000 And as far as the conspiracy theories, one of the things the judge is going to do in Bois Dyer when we get to trial is ensure that anybody that is selected for the jury can be fair.
00:16:37.000 That means this is going to be asked about.
00:16:39.000 He's not going to publish the theories, but he's going to ask those jurors.
00:16:43.000 You know, what have you seen?
00:16:44.000 What have you heard?
00:16:45.000 Do you have any preconceived notions about this case designed to get to exactly what both of you are pointing out?
00:16:51.000 That this case cannot be tried by what's happening and what's being stated in the court and public opinion, only what's introduced in a court of law.
00:17:00.000 That's what we're doing in this probable cause hearing.
00:17:03.000 That's what we'll be doing at trial.
00:17:04.000 Those are great points.
00:17:05.000 Yeah.
00:17:05.000 And I just go back to the fact that by refusing to admit certain evidence, which the defense is pushing for, even in a preliminary hearing, You could make the argument that that is prejudicial against the victim's rights here because, again, the conspiracies and the internet are filling all the voids when the court refuses to fill them.
00:17:24.000 So, this is a portion from the brief that was filed by, I believe, Jeffrey Nyman, who we just saw on that.
00:17:35.000 It said the victim's family's position is simple.
00:17:37.000 At a minimum, every exhibit entered into evidence during the preliminary hearing must be visible to every person lawfully present in the courtroom.
00:17:44.000 To receive evidence in a matter shielded from those seated in the courtroom, It's happened today, is not transparency.
00:17:50.000 And in the absence of transparency, speculation and conspiracy theories related to the tragic assassination of Mr. Kirk will continue to proliferate in the public domain, breeding doubt and distrust in the judicial system.
00:18:01.000 This is not what anyone should want.
00:18:03.000 So, Jeffrey Nyman is hitting that point exactly, right?
00:18:08.000 Especially this, you know, and the absence of transparency, speculation and conspiracies will proliferate.
00:18:15.000 That's the key.
00:18:16.000 And it sounds like the judge has been persuaded, at least in part.
00:18:20.000 You can't argue with that.
00:18:21.000 It is true.
00:18:21.000 Anytime we say, well, you know, in this very charged environment, this emotionally charged environment where we have all these theories out there, to say that we're not going to release evidence is necessarily and definitely going to fuel those theories.
00:18:34.000 You know, and it is also true that victims have a significant amount of rights.
00:18:39.000 And it's true emotionally.
00:18:40.000 Nobody can argue that why, you know, in a perfect world, everybody would get to see all the evidence, and especially the Kirk family and friends and the beloved supporters that are there.
00:18:51.000 I want to tie that in.
00:18:53.000 With one thing that both of you agreed on earlier, we haven't seen a prelim like this.
00:18:58.000 You had the assassination of an absolutely beloved icon, just a somebody that could have been president of the United States.
00:19:05.000 It's a case that transcends so many different fact patterns under similar crime statutes.
00:19:10.000 It's just different every way you think about it.
00:19:13.000 And in that environment, to have evidence that is not admitted to have, evidence that is redacted, is going to be scrutinized far more seriously, which is why I have to imagine That, between the probable cause hearing, whatever the rulings end up being, whatever is redacted, and the trial, that the prosecution and the media lawyers will probably continue to push for that transparency.
00:19:39.000 Remember that this sort of came up at the 11th hour.
00:19:41.000 Shouldn't have.
00:19:42.000 I mean, that it always happens when we sort of shouldn't have, but we may be continuing to press for that.
00:19:48.000 Wendy, that was great stuff.
00:19:49.000 Thank you so much for being on standby for this break.
00:19:52.000 It sounds like the court is coming back in session, so we're going to tune right in.
00:19:57.000 All right.
00:19:58.000 Wendy, it seems like they're really taking their time here, bringing the public in.
00:20:02.000 We did check the transcript, and he said they're reentering the courtroom as slowly as we've gone through everything else in this preliminary here.
00:20:08.000 Yeah.
00:20:08.000 So just preview it for the audience, though.
00:20:10.000 Wendy, what is about to happen?
00:20:13.000 What's about to happen is we're finally going to see several pieces of evidence that contain statements that are attributed directly to Tyler Robinson.
00:20:20.000 It's going to be the first time we've actually seen that in a court of law.
00:20:24.000 We're going to see that in different formats.
00:20:25.000 We're going to talk about text messages.
00:20:27.000 We're going to hopefully hear from the roommate.
00:20:29.000 After that, we'll no doubt also hear some argument about how much more, if any, we can see.
00:20:36.000 And I have to say, the reason I'm glad we're finally getting started is the judge made clear this is over tomorrow at 5 p.m.
00:20:42.000 Yeah.
00:20:43.000 Wendy, it looks like.
00:20:45.000 Finally, finally had the public filter in, but that was actually a really key point right there at the end.
00:20:50.000 So, thank you.
00:20:52.000 Wendy, thank you for standing by with us this morning.
00:20:55.000 Let's go back to the courtroom.
00:20:58.000 Hi, folks.
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00:21:53.000 Your friend Andrew sent you.
00:21:57.000 We have Robert Barnes now.
00:22:00.000 He's joining us.
00:22:01.000 He's been all over social media trying to add facts and logic and actually some experience of what it means to do actual law.
00:22:11.000 Robert, thank you so much.
00:22:13.000 Barnes Law LLP and co host of Viva and Barnes, thank you for joining us.
00:22:18.000 Robert, what do you make of what just happened?
00:22:20.000 I don't know if you were watching the hearing just there.
00:22:24.000 Jack Posobic, who's in the courtroom or at least around it, He said that huge reversal that the judge is now going to admit more of this Lance Twiggs video recording.
00:22:34.000 Is that how you read what we just saw?
00:22:36.000 Yeah, and I think what the judge is trying to balance is the defendant's rights to an impartial jury, which is influenced by pretrial prejudicial publicity, against the victim's rights to substantially participate and to observe all meaningful hearings under Utah constitutional and state law, as well as the U.S. and state constitutional rights of the media to have access to public court proceedings.
00:23:02.000 And the public's right to have open access to the courts under the First Amendment's rights to petition the government for redress of grievances, in which that constitutional right encompasses that.
00:23:12.000 So he's balancing those two.
00:23:13.000 I think courts usually make the mistake of favoring secrecy and favoring sealing proceedings over public transparency because they're more worried about the defendant's pretrial publicity prejudice than they are the prejudice to not allowing full, complete, open access to particularly high profile cases where it is really necessary for the public.
00:23:36.000 To have confidence in whatever outcome is procured through that judicial process.
00:23:41.000 And I think for a very young judge, he's actually doing a better job than is normal, honestly, for judges of that type.
00:23:48.000 Usually their lack of age, they default to, hey, let's keep things secret, let's keep things sealed, because that's what the defendant wants, and overreaching in that capacity.
00:24:00.000 Because there's an easy way to resolve the pretrial publicity issue, because that's only about the jury selection and the impartiality of the jury.
00:24:08.000 You can use jury selection.
00:24:10.000 Questioning to make sure there's nobody on that jury who has undue pretrial publicity prejudice.
00:24:17.000 This is particularly true when it's evidence that is likely to be admitted at trial.
00:24:21.000 Like your concern for pretrial publicity is evidence that is not likely to be introduced at trial that has a limited purpose, say in a preliminary hearing context, could get out to the jury in ways when it won't be admitted into evidence at trial.
00:24:35.000 When you're talking about evidence that the jury's going to see anyway, there's no reason for being concerned about that prejudice in the jury.
00:24:43.000 Is there a difference, though, because in the actual trial, Twiggs would presumably be called in person, and this is a video recording of it?
00:24:52.000 Does that distinction factor into the judge's decision here?
00:24:55.000 Because, yeah, it will be seen at trial, but it will be cross examined.
00:24:58.000 Correct.
00:24:59.000 And that's part of the defense's argument.
00:25:00.000 The defense's argument is that some of this evidence may be sufficient to meet the preliminary hearing admissibility evidentiary standard, but not the trial evidentiary standard.
00:25:12.000 So that's.
00:25:14.000 The defense has a plausible claim as to why they want to exclude this.
00:25:18.000 I think their main motivation may be different, but I think they do have a plausible basis for this.
00:25:24.000 I saw Rick Rinnell and some other people complaining about the defense lawyer.
00:25:28.000 They're just doing their job and their advocacy constitutionally, which we want them to do because we want to have confidence in the outcome of the case.
00:25:34.000 We want the defense to be very robust, to have full capability and confidence that they can do this.
00:25:40.000 I totally agree.
00:25:41.000 Yeah, I totally agree, Robert.
00:25:42.000 I completely agree.
00:25:43.000 But aren't they sort of conceding?
00:25:45.000 Like, isn't the defense conceding that they believe that this evidence is really damning by constantly throwing up objections and fighting full transparency?
00:25:55.000 Isn't that kind of the subtext here?
00:25:58.000 Yeah, I think so.
00:25:59.000 I mean, there is a possibility there may be some evidentiary vulnerability in some of this evidence that they truly think they'll be able to exclude from the trial presentation.
00:26:07.000 But the, and some of this is definitely for the cameras because they have a standing objection.
00:26:12.000 When you have a standing objection, you don't have to repeat your objection during the hearing.
00:26:15.000 And they're repeating their objection.
00:26:17.000 So they're doing this because they know.
00:26:18.000 They're defending him in the court of public opinion as well as the court of law, which in a high profile case, that's part of a defense counsel's job.
00:26:28.000 And I get people unhappy with that, but we want that to be the case.
00:26:31.000 We want to believe the defense lawyer defended them every which way they possibly could so that we can have confidence when I think what this case will ultimately secure is a conviction.
00:26:39.000 They've already met their preliminary hearing standard with ease for probable cause purposes.
00:26:44.000 I see a lot of incorrect, confusing, mistaken views out there that this is the trial, it's not.
00:26:50.000 This is an evidentiary hearing.
00:26:51.000 It's not.
00:26:52.000 Tyler Robinson is being afforded more due process than 99.9% of all criminal defendants across the country and around the world.
00:26:59.000 The most criminal defendants in the federal system never get a preliminary hearing.
00:27:02.000 Even the ones that get it at a state level typically get far less discovery, far fewer witnesses testifying, don't get to see the underlying exhibits themselves, don't get to see audio and video in this capacity, don't get to test it in front of the public, in front of the whole world, and the court of public opinion, not just the court of law.
00:27:19.000 They don't get a sneak peek preview of what these witnesses' credibility would look like.
00:27:23.000 So, this is extraordinary.
00:27:25.000 This court has gone out of its way to afford Tyler Robinson more due process, more discovery, more evidentiary capability to be able to explore and develop their defenses than almost any criminal defendant in the country gets.
00:27:38.000 So, there's a lot of.
00:27:39.000 So, Robert, I'm wondering about that.
00:27:41.000 We've noticed this as well.
00:27:43.000 It's taken so long, there's been so much process.
00:27:46.000 What's the primary driver of this?
00:27:48.000 Is that it's a capital case?
00:27:50.000 Is this the judge's call?
00:27:52.000 Is this something where this could, in theory, happen?
00:27:55.000 In any murder case, but usually the attorneys don't really feel like maxing it out.
00:28:02.000 What's the key driver of why this has been able to go as long as it has?
00:28:06.000 Who's making the decisions that decide that?
00:28:08.000 So, the primary mover of delaying this through this entire process, the primary mover of trying to withhold documents and information from the public is both the defense counsel.
00:28:18.000 And it's in the defense counsel's interest to do so when that evidence is damaging.
00:28:22.000 As to your point, Andrew, it's implicitly very damaging for them to go.
00:28:26.000 It sounds like we're coming back.
00:28:28.000 Robert Barnes, thank you so much.
00:28:30.000 Stand by.
00:28:30.000 We're hopefully going to see the Lance Twiggs video now.
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00:29:35.000 It took us two days, practically, it seems, of back and forth endlessly over what would be presented.
00:29:41.000 But we finally got what a lot of us, I think, were really waiting for this preliminary hearing for.
00:29:47.000 Yeah.
00:29:48.000 Which, because we'd seen, we knew some of the stuff, evidence from campus, we knew a lot of the accounts of what had happened.
00:29:55.000 But what we had not seen was the videotape testimony from Lance Twiggs, the roommate, alleged.
00:30:06.000 Boyfriend of Tyler Robinson, who has taken an immunity deal to provide testimony.
00:30:12.000 We finally got not all, but large chunks of his interview with police that was conducted this spring.
00:30:21.000 He talked about, he confirmed that he'd seen Tyler engraving bullets.
00:30:26.000 He confirmed that Tyler had sent him text messages confessing to the shooting.
00:30:32.000 He described reconfirming that in person with him the following day.
00:30:38.000 The words that are going to haunt me, haunt Andrew, haunt a lot of people, I think.
00:30:42.000 He says that Tyler Robinson told him he wished he hadn't done it.
00:30:48.000 He was crying.
00:30:49.000 He was crying.
00:30:51.000 And that's going to stick with all of us, I think, a very long time.
00:30:59.000 And then after they presented that, they went back to the witness and they went through, they showed photos of Lance Twiggs' phone.
00:31:08.000 His iPhone, his communication.
00:31:11.000 It reconfirmed exchanges we saw really just in the first week after the shooting.
00:31:17.000 Released a lot of the text messages between Tyler and Lance, but this confirmed it.
00:31:23.000 We got to see the actual image of the phone exchange where we'd seen only a transcript before, and we saw a few pieces that had been left out before.
00:31:31.000 They occasionally jumped through it before.
00:31:34.000 One that stood out to me, he was saying, If I'm not able to retrieve this gun, this is allegedly Tyler was saying this, if I'm not able to retrieve this gun, I don't know how I could replace it.
00:31:44.000 My grandpa had done some modifications, some work on it, and that gets To another one of the conspiracy theories we've seen, which is that it couldn't have been this Mauser 98 rifle because the Mauser 98 rifle has a type of safety on it that's difficult to use with a scope.
00:32:00.000 But some of our friends have looked into this, those ballistics experts, gun experts, have looked into this.
00:32:07.000 Mauser 98 is a popular rifle.
00:32:09.000 There are a lot of modifications you can get on that to get around that so you can use a scope on it.
00:32:14.000 So we see text message exchanges that are confirming that specific point.
00:32:19.000 We do have this video that I think is also.
00:32:22.000 Important and I believe Jay Town has just called in.
00:32:25.000 So, Jay, are you there?
00:32:28.000 I'm here.
00:32:29.000 Yes, John.
00:32:29.000 Hey, Jay.
00:32:30.000 I'm going to play this video because one of the things that I've been seeing online is you know, the people are alleging that the images of Tyler Robinson from the surveillance footage, that compilation video yesterday, were not Tyler Robinson.
00:32:44.000 And we had a very relevant exchange between the investigator and Twigs in this video recording where they talk about just this.
00:32:52.000 Go ahead and play SOT 17.
00:32:53.000 I'll get your reaction, Jay.
00:32:55.000 SOT 17.
00:32:57.000 Okay.
00:33:04.000 Okay, before he came home, had you seen the press releases, any of the media on this?
00:33:12.000 I'd seen one Instagram link a friend of mine had sent in our group chat.
00:33:20.000 But I hadn't really looked into it at all.
00:33:23.000 And had you seen the images that were released of the suspect?
00:33:28.000 I did the next day.
00:33:29.000 I don't think I saw any on the 10th.
00:33:32.000 I'm going to show you a couple of those images.
00:33:47.000 I'm on the FBI's website.
00:33:49.000 You can see the URL there at the top.
00:33:52.000 This is a press release about this event.
00:33:56.000 And here on the screen, you see these, it looks like there's two rows of three images.
00:34:01.000 Do you recognize the person in these images?
00:34:07.000 I wouldn't say with 100% certainty just because of camera quality, but that looks like him in terms of the shoes he's wearing, the sunglasses.
00:34:16.000 I don't think I'd specifically seen him wearing that hat, but he was usually wearing a hat.
00:34:21.000 Um, and then jeans, so it definitely, especially the bottom, the last two definitely do look like him.
00:34:35.000 Oh, they do look like Tyler Robinson, Jay.
00:34:40.000 Um, speak to this from a legal perspective.
00:34:45.000 What's the significance?
00:34:47.000 Um, I guess both from a probable cause standpoint and looking forward to understanding that he's going to be cross examined.
00:34:54.000 If this thing goes to full trial, yeah, and it's going to full trial.
00:34:58.000 I can promise you that.
00:35:00.000 The people who know him best recognized him.
00:35:02.000 It's as simple as that, right?
00:35:04.000 His live in roommate, lover thinks that's him.
00:35:08.000 His parents recognized him from the videos that day, right?
00:35:14.000 When they were put out saying, be on a lookout for this individual.
00:35:18.000 And they're like, hey, that looks like our son.
00:35:22.000 And look, I mean, it's incredibly important when the people who know him best.
00:35:26.000 Say that's him.
00:35:27.000 Now, look, that just gets him in that area.
00:35:31.000 It's, you know, the conspiracy theorists don't have that wiggle anymore.
00:35:37.000 The biggest thing, though, honestly, are the admissions with Twiggs.
00:35:40.000 I mean, you know, you don't admit to murder.
00:35:43.000 You don't confess why you did it.
00:35:45.000 You don't confess.
00:35:46.000 I mean, he knew an awful lot about where the gun was, that there was a scope on that rifle, on the Mauser, and that he might have fingerprints on it.
00:35:55.000 Of course, we know he had DNA on it.
00:35:57.000 And is right where he's talking about the area where they're exactly where they found that murder weapon.
00:36:03.000 I mean, that is just damning evidence.
00:36:07.000 And admissions are absolutely the best evidence a prosecutor can hope for.
00:36:12.000 I have prosecuted or investigated hundreds of homicides in my career and death penalty cases as well.
00:36:19.000 I can tell you the evidence in this case is as strong as I have seen.
00:36:24.000 And there is no mental health defense here that the defense is trying to put forward.
00:36:29.000 If there was, Then they would just concede it all and say, yeah, but he was crazy.
00:36:33.000 No, they're fighting tooth and nail about every single item because they know the more that happens, the more the public knows, the more the future jury pool knows.
00:36:42.000 This is no case is a layup, no case is a slam dunk, but this is as good as it's going to get for any state, for any prosecution in a homicide case.
00:36:53.000 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a pretty definitive statement, Jay.
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00:37:58.000 I am curious about this limited immunity for Lance Twiggs.
00:38:03.000 You know, I would, you know, just full transparency reading some of that stuff where he's talking about, hey, drive safe, you know, after he's just, you know, Confessed to a murder, you know, and they're kind of going back and forth.
00:38:18.000 You know, the fact that I don't know, it's just, it was infuriating to watch that portion of it because it does seem like hours went by where Lance Twiggs was aware of what happened and he did nothing about it.
00:38:32.000 So, can you break down what that limited immunity would be?
00:38:35.000 Does he have any exposure here?
00:38:37.000 Well, the only exposure he would have is if he suddenly has different testimony than what he has given already in those taped interviews.
00:38:47.000 Right.
00:38:47.000 So if suddenly he changes and says something that is exculpatory to Tyler Robinson, then he could be stripped of that immunity and be prosecuted for any crimes to include perjury.
00:39:01.000 Now, look, that's not going to happen.
00:39:04.000 He knows he's never going to see Tyler Robinson again.
00:39:06.000 Tyler Robinson was counting on Twiggs being able to keep this secret with him for the rest of his life.
00:39:12.000 That's why he left the note.
00:39:14.000 That's why he told him that it was him and admitted it all to him and didn't realize that Twiggs would.
00:39:21.000 Immediately go to police and say, Yeah, this is him, and this is what he told me.
00:39:27.000 It was disgusting, though, when you, as you pointed out, the well, drive safely.
00:39:31.000 It was almost sort of just a matter of fact.
00:39:33.000 Was it you?
00:39:34.000 Yeah, it was me.
00:39:34.000 Oh, why'd you do it?
00:39:36.000 And he's like, Man, I really hate the fact that I'm going to lose that $2,000 scope that's on that Mauser.
00:39:42.000 My dad's really going to be mad.
00:39:44.000 That's what's going through your mind at the moment, right?
00:39:47.000 You just murdered a husband, a father, a national leader.
00:39:51.000 It really is. 0.99
00:39:52.000 It's disgusting. 0.73
00:39:54.000 And it is going to infuriate. 0.98
00:39:56.000 It is a great argument in a jury trial when you are advocating for death.
00:40:01.000 And by the way, there's a lot in those messages to Twiggs from Robinson about why he did it.
00:40:07.000 And it was all because of the spreading hate and the political messages of Charlie Kirk.
00:40:11.000 Well, that is the death aggravator at issue here.
00:40:14.000 Not that he's a Christian, not that he's a father.
00:40:18.000 It was that he was spreading hate by doing what?
00:40:21.000 By doing what Charlie Kirk did, which is go to campus and talk about politics in a very open session with.
00:40:27.000 With students and adults.
00:40:29.000 And it was that politics that drove Tyler Robinson to do what he did.
00:40:34.000 That's exactly the death aggravator that the state is seeking the death penalty upon.
00:40:39.000 We mentioned whether he's telling the full truth.
00:40:43.000 The part of that testimony that stood out to a lot of people is he says, Twiggs says, that they didn't talk about politics much, that he'd never heard Tyler bring up Charlie Kirk specifically by name before.
00:40:56.000 And it gets me wondering first of all, is that fully true?
00:41:00.000 Or if it is true, then are we still looking for that nexus that was driving Tyler to actually do this?
00:41:11.000 Was there another Discord group that we don't know about?
00:41:14.000 Yeah, he did mention that when he talked about politics, Tyler was usually talking about Trump.
00:41:19.000 So maybe that nexus is enough.
00:41:21.000 Could be that.
00:41:23.000 But you and I both said we really, I mean, we badly want everyone who was involved in this beforehand to be brought to justice.
00:41:31.000 And that gets back to.
00:41:33.000 If he was in another Discord group that they haven't found yet, perhaps, maybe that's where he was getting nudged towards this violent act if it wasn't really coming from his roommate.
00:41:44.000 It could be.
00:41:45.000 I mean, look, they're going to keep looking.
00:41:47.000 Cash for telling the FBI are going to use every tool they can to determine if there was a second sort of Discord swing or string or any other type of application that he was on and he was being sort of radicalized.
00:42:01.000 But I actually think the simplest explanation is the truth here.
00:42:05.000 There would be no reason.
00:42:06.000 I'll confess to murder to you, but I won't confess about this second string or thread on a different app.
00:42:13.000 It seems to me that he was, I believe that he didn't discuss Charlie much at all with him simply because Trump was enough, right?
00:42:24.000 This is exactly what Trump derangement syndrome does to people, those closest to him are just as big a target.
00:42:32.000 And who's closer than Charlie Kirk, right?
00:42:34.000 I mean, Charlie Kirk had everything to do with Trump getting back into office, everything to do with it.
00:42:40.000 And, you know, I had the opportunity to take Charlie Kirk out, meaning Charlie was in Utah at a university just a few hours away from Tyler Robinson.
00:42:49.000 And so he took it.
00:42:50.000 Blaming Trump, blaming Kirk, blaming all of us for the support of the president.
00:42:55.000 It could just be that simple, guys.
00:42:59.000 Jay, thanks for joining us, man.
00:43:03.000 I think I candidly need to take a break, too.
00:43:07.000 Thank you for jumping on and being sort of available for us today.
00:43:12.000 Any final thoughts, Blake, Jay?
00:43:16.000 Yeah, and I just, and this is important.
00:43:19.000 Andrew, this is important.
00:43:21.000 Look, this is very personal for you guys to sit and watch this, as it is for Erica and the family, and so many people that love Charlie.
00:43:28.000 But it takes a lot of courage, it takes guts to sit there and have to watch it and be objective still because you have every right to be angry.
00:43:36.000 So I appreciate what you guys are doing by watching the whole thing, reporting it back, being as objective as you can, bringing the truth out.
00:43:44.000 The best you can.
00:43:45.000 You know the truth, we know the truth, and we're with you.
00:43:47.000 Thanks for saying that, Jay.
00:43:48.000 Appreciate it.
00:43:53.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.