00:00:56.000Noble Gold Investments is the official gold sponsor of The Charlie Kirk Show, a company that specializes in gold IRAs and physical delivery of precious metals.
00:01:06.000Learn how you could protect your wealth with Noble Gold Investments at Noble Gold Investments.com.
00:01:47.000We will reconvene and he will issue his bind over ruling.
00:01:51.000Now, things that could happen, I think overwhelmingly likely he's going to agree, bind over for trial.
00:02:00.000Open questions, though, are will he throw out any of the lower charges?
00:02:04.000They took a lot of aim at witness tampering, at the endangerment of minors, or committing violence in front of minors, I should say, and especially the defense.
00:02:13.000Took aim at the enhancers that they used to make Tyler Robinson eligible for the death penalty.
00:02:21.000So he could, in theory, issue a ruling striking those down right here.
00:02:27.000If he doesn't do that, then we would proceed to bind over and having an arraignment.
00:02:33.000I don't think it's likely we'll enter a plea today.
00:02:35.000I think he'll probably schedule that for someday in the near future.
00:03:01.000Thank you for following us on this tragic, painful journey.
00:03:07.000But we have an hour to talk about here.
00:03:10.000We're going to see Andrews was in the chambers throughout this afternoon.
00:03:14.000So we're hoping that he'll get his phone back during this extended recess.
00:03:19.000Maybe be able to join us because we want to talk more about what I think is by far the most uh viral, the most attention getting moment of this hearing, which is what we were talking about during the last recess the kind of out of nowhere bit where the defense team it doesn't even seem to help their client, but the defense team just starts saying Charlie Kirk is a hateful person,
00:03:46.000it is true that he was hateful, and I'm not even sure what they were setting up for it.
00:03:55.000There is no evidence of Mr. Robinson having heard or seen anything specific from Mr. Kirk or having expressed anything about Mr. Kirk until the statement which basically says some hatred can't be negotiated out.
00:04:56.000The evidence from Mr. Twiggs is that he identified in a non gender conforming way to his friends and that he was in a romantic relationship with Mr. Robinson.
00:05:10.000But that doesn't mean that those personal choices by Mr. Twiggs and by Mr. Robinson equate with the hate that at least Mr. Robinson says he had toward Mr. Kirk.
00:06:15.000I just want to say I'm a transgender male.
00:06:18.000What age should kids be able to get things like hormone therapy?
00:06:22.000Because I don't know what's true, what's not.
00:06:24.000Tell me, are you comfortable telling me your story?
00:06:26.000I've known that since like third grade, and I'm currently 19, almost 20, I've known.
00:06:33.000Basically, since then, I didn't start going by like a different name until seventh and eighth grade.
00:06:40.000I just don't know, like, with the whole medical stuff, like what's true, what's not, what's helpful, because I've heard so many different opinions.
00:06:47.000First of all, thank you so much for that.
00:06:50.000So I'm going to have an opinion that very few people will ever tell you, which is I want you to be very cautious putting drugs into your system in the pursuit of changing your body.
00:07:01.000I instead encourage you to work on what's going on in your brain first.
00:07:06.000I think what you need first and foremost is just a diagnosis.
00:07:09.000Just someone that is going to listen to what you've gone through, listen to what else is going on.
00:07:14.000My prayer for you, and again, very few people will say this, I actually want to see you be comfortable in how you were born.
00:07:21.000I know that you might not feel that way, but I think that is something that you can achieve.
00:07:25.000I think that with the right team and the right people, you don't have to wage war on your body.
00:07:40.000Fringe extreme thing, which is actual transgenderism.
00:07:43.000He also said Charlie was hateful towards people who had sex outside of marriage.
00:07:49.000And I don't have any idea what that's in reference to.
00:07:53.000I only ever remember Charlie being pretty mild.
00:07:56.000He basically expressed that almost as just, he basically would just say, Your relationships and marriage will be better if you don't do that.
00:08:02.000That's what I always remember him saying.
00:09:34.000But the fact that Mr. Novak even considered it as hate makes the case for the state.
00:09:42.000In his client's own words, he hated what Mr. Kirk stood for.
00:09:48.000On the shell casing that was found in the 30 odd six, the defendant's gun, grandpa's gun, the murder weapon, quote, hey, fascist catch, close quote.
00:10:03.000And of course, in the text, which has been talked about twice already today, states exhibit 16.1, when the defendant texted Mr. Twiggs, I had enough of his hatred, some hate can't be negotiated out.
00:10:40.000We're debating this, we're trying to figure out what the strategy is because I don't see how it's useful for Tyler Robinson, the defendant, for his attorneys to be saying, by the way, Charlie Kirk really was a hateful person who said all this hateful stuff.
00:10:55.000I, yeah, I can't put my, I don't know what that is either.
00:11:00.000You know, I kind of remember back to earlier in the day when they were kind of talking about what the schedule.
00:11:05.000Was going to look like, and uh, the prosecutor said, Hey, we're going to take you know this much time, you know, give or take a little bit, and then the defense said, Oh, we're going to take about an hour.
00:11:14.000And I kind of like, What are you going to talk about in the hour?
00:11:19.000Now, that was a lot of it because I don't know how that uh, one helped anything, he was saying, and two, I actually think it hurt more.
00:11:27.000Like you saw the prosecution there, uh, literally just there say, Yeah, this this kind of in a roundabout way kind of helps the case that we're trying to make that Tyler Robinson and apparently this attorney.
00:11:40.000Yeah, thought again, their own subjective opinion what Charlie was saying was hateful.
00:11:46.000Charlie was very cordial with everybody across the political spectrum.
00:11:50.000But then to make that as, I don't even know if that was an argument.
00:11:54.000I'm not entirely sure what they were trying to do there.
00:11:57.000But in any regard, I think it was good that the prosecution then said, this kind of helps illuminate what we're trying to paint, that there was a motive there, and that Tyler Robinson and Lance Twiggs hated the type of rhetoric, regardless of whether or not you think it was hateful.
00:12:53.000The judge is the one who makes this ruling.
00:12:54.000And does Judge Graff like hearing that sort of thing?
00:13:00.000I couldn't make out what the point of that would be other than to somehow potentially make the focus turn to that, where now everybody's talking about that.
00:13:10.000It's so genuinely strange because we all agree Tyler Robinson has the right to a defense, he has the right to a vigorous defense.
00:13:17.000He has the right to have them object to every single thing.
00:13:20.000We were talking earlier, Joe Bob, how they.
00:13:22.000At one point, they objected to the sound that camera tripods might make while being rattled around to argue if you have too many cameras, it will cause distraction and undercut his for trial.
00:13:34.000He has the right for them to make the most fringe objections imaginable.
00:13:38.000But twice in the proceedings so far, this incident here, and then at the end of the preliminary hearing last July, we've had a defense attorney go off on this bizarre tangent in the case, in this case saying, By the way, Charlie was hateful and hated all these people.
00:13:56.000And then last July, saying Erica Kirk, she throws herself into this case.
00:14:01.000She acts like the prosecutors are just her personal attorneys and just really blasting the literal widow of the murder victim in this case.
00:14:12.000And it really just, I can't figure, I genuinely can't figure it out.
00:14:18.000They themselves have like mass disdain for Charlie.
00:14:21.000I don't understand why they would be throwing that in there for really no reason at all.
00:15:01.000Is there any reason why they want to delay more?
00:15:03.000I mean, the goal that Judge Braff had said in the morning was hey, we're going to come to a conclusion today, or I'm going to come to a conclusion today.
00:15:10.000But given the fact that they took as long as they did, and again, in the length of time that they took, detoured to just kind of weird, subjective opinions about Charlie, is there any advantage to them like delaying this anymore?
00:16:32.000But then this just comes out of nowhere and reminds you that we are dealing with some very grave evil.
00:16:38.000And a lot of evil is fixated on this case.
00:16:40.000That's why so much is fixated on Charlie.
00:16:44.000If you, Joe Bob, if you got the chance during the prosecution's presentation, did you think that was a breath of fresh air in terms of we finally shorn of tons of endless interruptions for objections and litigating over can the camera show this particular screenshot?
00:17:02.000We did get the prosecution finally just took 40 minutes where their attorney is speaking and basically lays out here is why it is extremely obvious that Tyler Robinson is the person who killed Charlie.
00:17:14.000Do you think they did a good job at that?
00:17:18.000I think it was very sober in the approach of it.
00:17:22.000And I think, obviously, that was the intent of it.
00:17:25.000I think, you know, back to your earlier point when you're talking about the back and forth of all of the, hey, we have a standing objection.
00:17:33.000You know, there's a part of me that does think that's annoying, is probably not the correct term to use here, but it's kind of like, all right, let's actually get to what we're here to discuss.
00:17:43.000But at the same time, there's an appreciation for Judge Braff in trying to.
00:17:48.000Make sure that everything is as concrete and solid as possible, including allowing the defense to issue all of these objections and say, ah, this and that, and then rankling over that.
00:18:01.000And I think that's hopefully going to go a long way to shore up the validity of the conclusions that are going to be come to, not only in the pretrial, but in the trial itself.
00:18:16.000As far as the prosecution goes, yeah, it's such an odd situation.
00:18:22.000Thing to say, I think they did a good job, but they did.
00:18:24.000They did a thorough, decisive job at laying out everything I think they needed to lay out to make the case.
00:18:33.000And also, too, all of the evidence they have kind of makes that as like, well, they just laid out the evidence as it was, and they did it in a good job.
00:18:54.000And I know I'm preaching to the choir on that, but the overwhelming amount of evidence that the state has, even hearing that laid out, it just strikes an emotional chord, even though obviously the goal is justice.
00:19:12.000There's that small thing, that intangible thing inside me that just is tough to hear.
00:19:18.000And again, I know that everybody listening that was close to Charlie and knew Charlie and loved Charlie is feeling the same thing, but it's just, it feels like it's worth saying.
00:19:28.000Given kind of how this is playing out.
00:19:32.000And I think it's worth noting also, since we are talking about the prosecution versus the defense, these defense guys are highly experienced.
00:19:40.000The prosecutors mostly are just the career prosecutors of that area.
00:19:45.000So they are going up against highly experienced, heavy hitters.
00:19:48.000They're in what will be by far the most famous case of their careers.
00:19:53.000And we're glad that they're being methodical, we're glad that they're being deliberate.
00:20:00.000The word overwhelming was, in fact, used during today's.
00:20:03.000It's been One of those phrases, words that's been thrown back and forth, but it really is the word you want to apply to the evidence in this case.
00:20:12.000When I've been debating this with people online, I sometimes like to ask them Is there another murder case that you can name that ended in conviction where you think the evidence was actually more wide, like more far reaching, more all encompassing than in this case, short of the person literally being caught in the act or like being caught at the scene?
00:20:37.000Because We have the combination of weapon, we have confession, we have video footage, we have testimony from the roommate, we have phone ping.
00:20:48.000I don't know that any murder committed before the year 2000 could have more evidence than we have in this case because of all the additional technology we have.
00:20:56.000We're checking this, and confession, multiple types of confession.
00:21:02.000And it's really worth it for this to be trotted out because there have been people, whether they're just filling the void, Of uncertainty in this case because it's taken so long, or if they're people who are just motivated by their own obsessions, there are a lot of people who want to undercut this narrative.
00:21:20.000They wanted to act like there's a ton of uncertainty.
00:21:23.000And I think today was a welcome reminder no, there is not really any uncertainty in this case.
00:21:30.000The sheer scale of evidence available is, well, that's the word people go to.
00:22:21.000I'm not in litigation really ever in terms of watching it and seeing it play out.
00:22:28.000But as a layman, as a commentator, it just kind of looked like, hey, we're going to try and kind of stall for time because they're not trying to really do anything, again, argumentatively speaking, other than slander Charlie's approach to discussions, which again, I thought was horrible and disgusting.
00:22:47.000And I am curious too, Blake, you brought up earlier whether or not.
00:22:53.000This is some sort of tactic or like a deeper game being played by the defense, or if they're just like pure ideologues.
00:23:01.000And if they are pure ideologues, what does that mean going forward?
00:23:06.000Like, what does that mean in the trial?
00:23:08.000And not to try and dissect that way too early, but if that is the case and it ends up being that they just have this ideological perspective that leads them to believe all of the stuff that they were saying, I'm not sure the specific attorney speaking his name because it's.
00:23:26.000Seeing everybody's back of their head.
00:23:28.000But what does that mean going forward if that is the case, that there isn't really any tactical strategy?
00:23:34.000There isn't any real reason for that other than just hate driven ideology.
00:23:42.000And I'm sure that's going to be a discussion that we'll have going forward until the actual trial, if that happens to be the case.
00:23:50.000I'm not entirely sure how we would know that specifically, short of just asking the guy.
00:23:55.000But given that that's not going to happen, it's going to be an open question, I think, for a long time in my head.
00:24:01.000Just as we watch the defense and kind of the different tactics that they try and use, not only now, but obviously in the trial as well.
00:24:09.000Well, my gut feeling is even though it confuses us, there must be a strategic purpose to this.
00:24:14.000This is an elite team as far as defense attorneys go in capital cases.
00:24:21.000They've been involved in other infamous cases.
00:24:24.000I know we're going to have Jack Pasopic on again in just a minute here, and I know he has a theory about this that everything they do, however outlandish, is designed for a strategic purpose.
00:24:34.000And it might be in this case, Yeah, it looks horrible to us, but we're not on the jury.
00:24:39.000The only thing that matters is who are going to be the 12 people on a jury that has to decide is Tyler Robinson guilty?
00:24:46.000Should Tyler Robinson get the death penalty?
00:24:49.000And you need unanimity for both of those things.
00:24:51.000So if you're laying out the seed by saying Charlie Kirk was hateful, you're planting a seed for someone who might say, you know what, I'm going to take a stand against hate and I'm just not going to vote for a conviction on this under any circumstances.
00:25:04.000Or I'm not going, I'm sympathetic to Tyler Robinson.
00:25:34.000And, yeah, I think I've mentioned this a number of times across many platforms.
00:25:39.000Uh, this is there's so many emotional directions being pulled.
00:25:43.000Um, one, you know, obviously we want justice, um, but also just the pain that this stuff invokes.
00:25:49.000It's it's kind of a it's a today's a good reminder that of all of the evidence that is out there, overwhelming evidence, and also it is a painful reminder of the reality that we're in.
00:26:00.000And it's just those two emotions back and forth, uh, and dealing with it.
00:26:05.000And I'm though I can't see a future where those go away.
00:27:29.000I know we've had a lot of frustration with Judge Graff because he's been moving slowly on things.
00:27:34.000But as we've all pointed out, I think by far the number one priority for Judge Graff and all the prosecutors in this case is don't commit some avoidable error that will cause this to be a mistrial later, that will cause some appeals court judge, some left wing appeals court judge, to just go flick this away and say, oh, that conviction's thrown out, that sentence is thrown out.
00:27:59.000We know a lot of the left celebrates Charlie's death, and yeah, they might not do it now, but he's the sort of guy who 10 years from now, 15 years from now, he could be a cause celeb.
00:28:09.000They could say we should let this guy out early.
00:28:11.000He deserves an early release, and we don't want to give them any grounds for that.
00:28:15.000I'm told Jack is able to rejoin with us.
00:28:19.000Jack, we were saying you have a theory.
00:28:21.000What's your theory for what Richard Novak was doing when he went out there in front of the court and trashed Charlie Kirk as a hater?
00:28:33.000If you think wireless companies are all the same, you might need to take a look at our friends over at Patriot Mobile.
00:28:39.000Patriot Mobile isn't just different because of its mission, it's actually built to outperform the other carriers.
00:28:44.000They offer premium, priority, nationwide service on any of the three major US networks, helping you get the best possible coverage wherever life takes you.
00:28:53.000With Patriot Mobile, you can even have two separate networks on a single device, eliminating the need to carry multiple phones and giving you peace of mind you just can't get with other carriers.
00:29:04.000Patriot Mobile Wi Fi hotspots connect to multiple networks to keep you connected while traveling or working remotely.
00:29:11.000They also offer international roaming and enterprise solutions for businesses that need dependable connectivity and US based customer support.
00:29:19.000Keep your number, keep your phone or upgrade, switch from your home or office.
00:29:48.000And of course, we've been chatting and texting a little bit here back and forth.
00:29:52.000And I just have to say that, you know, it goes without saying that it's incredibly admirable to see both you and Day being up here, being willing to go through all of this and do what you're doing because.
00:30:08.000This isn't an academic debate to you guys.
00:30:11.000You guys were both standing right there.
00:30:13.000So these questions of if his aim was off or if he had jerked the trigger or something, you guys very well may not have made it back that day if these things happened.
00:30:25.000So this isn't like some dry courtroom debate.
00:30:28.000And I just wanted to say how much I appreciate it.
00:30:30.000And I think everybody appreciates you guys doing what you're doing, even in the face of obviously what's a very emotional discussion.
00:30:38.000And it's not the same as any other case, obviously.
00:31:11.000And if you look up his background, what is he known for?
00:31:13.000He's specifically known for fighting against the death penalty and being involved in cases where a high profile client, Michael Byrd as well, for example, has been charged with something where the death penalty could apply.
00:31:27.000And what I think is going on here is that all of this actually has to do with the death penalty and has to do with that phase in the trial.
00:31:36.000Because for folks who don't realize this, there's actually two phases to a death penalty trial, three phases, because, of course, the trial itself hasn't actually started.
00:31:49.000And I think that we're, you know, the judges, the lawyers, the legal teams on both sides kind of realize that we're going to pass that bar.
00:31:58.000That's why you hear things like them referring to, well, this was Tyler's text message or this was that.
00:32:04.000They very casually kind of admit that he sent the text and they're kind of making the same point about the targets as well, that they were, in fact, his targets.
00:32:14.000But what I think that he's doing here is that he knows.
00:32:19.000His audience isn't necessarily the judge right now.
00:32:23.000And I think what we might be getting is a look at the cards of what he's going to say, what the defense team is going to say when we do get to that sentencing phase.
00:32:33.000That it's going to be a question of well, is this a mitigating factor?
00:32:38.000Is it a mitigating factor because Tyler Robinson was in love with Twigs and Charlie Kirk was a hater of homosexuals?
00:32:49.000Non gender conforming, non strict heterosexuals, I think was the phrase he specifically used.
00:32:54.000And that they have to reach forward through time to that one juror who might be on the box or maybe in the future to some appellate judge or even up to the Supreme Court by saying that they actually do want to make this about trans issues.
00:33:11.000They just know that they can't really yet.
00:33:14.000That's why they waited right up all the way until this very final moment of the preliminary hearing.
00:33:22.000To drop this bombshell because they do want to bring up trans issues and they want to be able to use it not to get him off of a conviction or out of criminal culpability, like, of course, is going on with the Lindsey Clancy situation and postpartum.
00:33:37.000They want to use it as a mitigating factor to try to get Tyler Robinson out of the death penalty.
00:34:39.000We're here with Danny here in the studio, and then Jack's also with us.
00:34:43.000But we're waiting for Judge Graff to issue his ruling.
00:34:48.000What's your big picture assessment of what went on today?
00:34:51.000Well, I actually, I mean, I wasn't watching it closely, but what I said to Jack was everything today is pro forma.
00:34:56.000The fact that He announced that he was going to issue a ruling beforehand, which means he wasn't going to pay much attention at all to the actual arguments that were made in court, which is perfectly reasonable because there's been briefing.
00:35:08.000He already had the five days of actual preliminary hearing to make up his mind whether there was probable cause.
00:35:14.000So, all this just goes to show that, you know, if he knew he was going to issue a ruling, then he just was letting people talk and it didn't really matter what they were going to say.
00:35:22.000And so, I expect a pretty straightforward ruling that there's probable cause here and that he's going to bind over the charges and we're going to have a trial.
00:35:31.000If you got a chance to see this, we had, we've just been discussing that Richard Novak, the defense attorney, he basically went and he.
00:35:41.000Trashed Charlie, called him, said he was hateful.
00:35:45.000He said hateful things about people who weren't heterosexual, hateful things about people based on their gender identity, hateful things about this and that and all of that.
00:35:55.000And Jack's point of view is they're clearly making the bid that they know eventually this will face a jury for conviction.
00:36:04.000This will face a jury for is this the death penalty?
00:36:08.000And they're just planting the seeds for someone to.
00:36:12.000Decide because we have our glorious jury system that they're going to just put their personal biases into this and say, you know what, he's right.
00:36:43.000As if the judge already said he's going to announce a ruling, then you're speaking to a guy who's made up his mind and isn't going to change his mind based on whatever you say.
00:36:50.000And you've also had the opportunity to say substantively, legally, whatever you wanted to say in your briefing.
00:36:54.000So he's not, he's going to be particularly annoyed if you're trying to make new substantive legal points in oral argument that you didn't put in your brief.
00:37:02.000So I think the way that they look at it is they're, you know, they're not speaking to the judge, they're speaking to the public and potential jurors.
00:37:09.000And so that sort of frames how you would think about what their message is here, what they're trying to communicate.
00:37:15.000And in this case, it would be maybe he had it coming.
00:37:18.000So they wouldn't say that so explicitly, obviously, but maybe that's the sort of underlying message.
00:37:24.000I wouldn't be surprised to see more of that, more sort of subtle slander of Charlie coming from the defense team, trying to capture and hope that maybe one of the jurors is going to fight for a mistrial or more based on the fact that they sympathize with Tyler Robinson's actions.
00:37:41.000Jack, I think this inevitably gets us thinking about a distinctive feature of our system.
00:37:46.000That we have this Anglo Saxon 12 person jury trial.
00:37:58.000I think all of us would be sad to see it go.
00:38:02.000But when you do see this kind of strategic pandering, or when we see the other famous trial going on right now, the Lindsey Clancy case, people were watching for a verdict there all day.
00:38:39.000Poland is kind of all over social media lately.
00:38:44.000And I was reading a book in my spare time, because why not, about legal practice in Poland.
00:38:50.000And Poland, like most of continental Europe, Does not use the jury system, does not use the same jury system that we do.
00:38:58.000They have a system that's much closer to, at this stage, what they call the first instance of a trial, it goes to a judge or sometimes a judge with members of the public who are appointed as lay judges, like one or two.
00:39:14.000They do not have this 12 person jury trial.
00:39:18.000And I remember when my wife and I were watching the Derek Chauvin trial, Tanya Tay was saying, wow, I've never realized that America had trials like this.
00:39:31.000And, you know, it really goes to show you that the way things have changed in America, whereby in the idea was that a jury would have, you know, good faith, would be operating in good faith.
00:39:42.000But of course, where do we pull our juries from these days?
00:39:45.000We pull them from the voter rolls, which we know are a complete joke in many of these jurisdictions.
00:39:50.000I'm not, you know, talking about Provo.
00:39:52.000I'm just saying in general in America, we know there's huge problems.
00:39:55.000That's why the SAVE Act was such a fight, and the Senate wouldn't pass it.
00:40:01.000Mass migration in this country, mass migration of people who have come with wholly different ideas of how things should be.
00:40:12.000And unfortunately, multiculturalism, which is something that Lee Kuan Yew actually spoke about, is terrible when it comes to juries.
00:40:19.000Because, for example, one of those multicultures that you could talk about, for example, is the LGBTQ community.
00:40:28.000And so if you're a member of that community and you find yourself on the jury, then perhaps, just perhaps, The reason that Novak said what he just said over there is that because you might think that, in fact, I am a member of a community that Charlie Kirk was against.
00:40:43.000If Charlie Kirk was against my community, then I should be for the person who was against Charlie Kirk.
00:40:47.000And so this is where that system kind of breaks down because if you have a multicultural system, you are going to see those types of culture clashes inside the jury box.
00:41:00.000Of course, we're seeing that with Lindsey Clancy right now and most famously with OJ Simpson back, was it 92 or 93?
00:41:09.000And so, and you had jurors, by the way, after the OJ case saying that they unequivocally thought that OJ was guilty, but they voted not guilty because they were mad about Rodney King or things like that.
00:41:20.000And this is obviously a complete short circuit of the way the system is supposed to work, which is, of course, weighing the facts and evidence and then coming back with a good faith response.
00:41:32.000You know, the reasonableness standard, which is applied to so many of these statutes as Will Is very familiar with, you know, it kind of flies out the window if you can't agree on what's reasonable and what's not.
00:41:46.000And unfortunately, that's what we're seeing now in society.
00:41:49.000And yes, obviously, social media, TikTok, Instagram, all of these things are adding to these major, major fissures in our society.
00:41:58.000Will, what do you feel about the future of our jury system as we sweat the outcome of this case and the other infamous cases going on in the US at this moment?
00:42:10.000Yeah, no, I posted something about this today that you could see a world where this gets so bad that eventually a right wing movement takes power, takes aim at the jury trial, and says the jury trial doesn't work for us anymore.
00:42:21.000It's leading to far too many acquittals of people who've committed extraordinarily serious crimes when the evidence is overwhelming.
00:42:28.000And I mean, you bring up Lee Kuan Yew, right?
00:42:30.000I'd recommend everybody, if you have the time, it's a lot, but Lee Kuan Yew's autobiography, in particular, the first part of his autobiography where he talks about his early life coming into power.
00:42:40.000Lee Kuan Yew was a criminal defense lawyer.
00:42:44.000While the English were in charge, he managed to, he defended a guy who he thought and he said was totally guilty, but he appealed to the tribal prejudices of the ethnic prejudices of the jury in front of him and managed to persuade them to let him off.
00:43:00.000And after that, you know, that act of having gotten this criminal off of a very serious charge made him permanently very skeptical of juries.
00:43:09.000And so that's why Singapore has bench trials, even though it's an English common law country and many other English common law countries still retain trial by jury, which is ultimately an English tradition.
00:43:19.000So, there's, you know, if we're going to turn, this is, I think, one of the better arguments against mass immigration is that, you know, our system, as Jack said, was built not on multiculturalism.
00:43:45.000And I think Jack talked about this earlier today on his show as well, which was, you know, in other societies, it would be extremely strange.
00:43:51.000For the parents of Tyler Robinson to have turned Tyler Robinson in, that would have been seen as weird and disloyal to your family.
00:43:58.000In the West, we have a particular appreciation for individualism and impartial justice and a rejection of nepotism that is not present in every part of the world.
00:44:09.000And the more you import people from parts of the world where the moral fabric, essentially the moral sentiment of people, runs towards protecting your being loyal to your clan rather than impartial justice.
00:44:24.000The more and more the jury system will break down over time.
00:44:28.000I mean, an example that also happened within the last year the Henry Novak case in the UK, where a guy stabs someone to death in the street.
00:44:39.000His brother helps cover for him, his mother helps cover for him.
00:44:43.000It is an entire community comes together to help him cover up, try to escape justice for this crime.
00:44:50.000And we were fortunate that this failed and he was convicted anyway.
00:44:54.000But we may see more and more cases like that.
00:44:59.000I feel the entire nature of jury trials relies on a jury being a community of not just shared values, but the sense that everyone is part of the same community.
00:45:11.000When any criminal trial can start having this aspect of is the defendant in my tribe or in a different tribe as a key part of it, you're going to end up in cases where it's very, it's far more difficult than it should be to get the right verdict in a case, whether it's in the Clancy case.
00:45:32.000Where it suddenly is a battle of the sexes incident, or if it's in racial stuff, this person's part of my group, and so I will just not trust any indictment against such a person, or even politics.
00:45:46.000One of the things we've discussed is is it going to matter in this case that it's at least being tried in Orem, Utah, which is a red Trump county, and it's also filled with Mormons who are pretty law abiding, straight arrow individuals, whereas.
00:46:03.000What if Charlie got shot in Boulder, Colorado?
00:46:06.000What if Charlie got shot in the Bay Area, somewhere really blue?
00:46:11.000We'd have to worry a lot more that just someone says, I want to get on that trial.
00:46:15.000I want to get on that jury and make sure that the person who killed Charlie gets away with it.
00:46:20.000And, Blake, just to bolster your point, by the way, we've already seen Luigi Maggioni, who's on video committing murder in New York City.
00:46:28.000And there, the judges have already taken the death penalty off the table, even before it's gone to trial.
00:46:51.000I know, I think the basic strategic decision there was they thought they managed to knock out the death penalty in that case by ruling of the judge.
00:47:00.000And then they decided to plead guilty there in order to avoid, to make double jeopardy come into play for the other case where I guess the death penalty was still a live option.
00:47:52.000Mick asks This is, I think, unlikely, but maybe you guys have thoughts on this.
00:47:57.000Is it possible that Mr. Novak's comment was used so that the defense team would have later grounds for appeal on grounds of ineffective counsel?
00:48:08.000As in, was the lawyer making an argument so bad deliberately so that.
00:48:13.000Tyler can later claim my lawyers were inept.
00:48:46.000Viewed and met Mr. Novak, and having viewed him up close and personal for a week, like I did originally, it really doesn't seem like something that he would just do off the cuff like that.
00:49:00.000I think that he's probably got a strategy in mind.
00:49:02.000Yeah, I wouldn't say ineffective assistance of counsel would even make sense at this point in the trial.
00:49:08.000You've already made all your arguments in your briefing, and it's a judge decision.
00:49:12.000So it's not the kind of thing where you're failing to object to some important piece of evidence that's been admitted.
00:49:19.000It's so liberal at this point that I don't think that would ever be a strategy.
00:49:22.000Moreover, a strategy like that is not the kind of thing any lawyer himself wants to engage in because it doesn't really get you out of anything.
00:49:29.000It means you just go back to trial again.
00:49:30.000And it's not like even if, you know, Tyler Robinson eventually on appeal were to prevail on an ineffective assistance of counsel motion, that doesn't mean he goes free.
00:49:39.000That means he gets a new trial and we're back exactly where we started.
00:49:42.000And he's not going to be free pending bond.
00:49:45.000Like, they're not going to bond him out after that.
00:49:47.000He's still the guy who murdered Charlie Kirk.
00:50:25.000After the aggravating factor of potentially targeting others, which includes, of course, both of you guys.
00:50:31.000And, Will, I guess my question is: Could he be making this argument that hate speech is not considered political?
00:50:43.000That it is, in fact, that doesn't qualify because it wasn't a hard Republican versus Democrat kind of thing?
00:50:53.000I don't think that's going to be particularly germane.
00:50:55.000If I remember correctly, I think I reviewed the statute on the sort of political aspect of it, and it was all about the sort of identity of who you shot.
00:51:03.000Whether they were like an office holder of some sort, you know, a senator or a congressman, a state legislator, a sheriff.
00:51:12.000A prominent political activist does make it have political valence, but the statute kind of enumerated specific categories of people who would qualify as being targeting them would qualify as aggravated murder.
00:51:22.000And I don't think, I think the only way to get there with Charlie was based on his like board membership on one of the like, you know, blue ribbon commissions that the executive branch has that he was a member of.
00:51:32.000Like I think it was like the board of directors of the Air Force Academy or something like that.
00:51:35.000He was, yeah, he was the Air Force Academy.
00:51:37.000And in fact, He was, if I remember correctly, Blake, you'd, you'd, and you got, you guys would probably know, but I think he was planning to visit there, uh, not long after this Utah stop.
00:51:48.000So I think, I don't, I guess my broader point is the sort of going for this interesting, if anything, you know, you'd be ramping up the political valence here by bringing up the sort of what Charlie had done if this were a live issue.
00:52:00.000So I think that actually would be a strange strategy for the defense if I think they're, they're only doing this sort of thing because they're pretty confident that there isn't a live issue on the political side.
00:52:12.000Or maybe they think it's just a reach.
00:52:28.000Well, basically, this is what made me think about it is because it's one of those things when you talk to the left where they'll say that's not a political issue.
00:52:37.000They'll say that's not because they don't believe anything in progressivism is politics.
00:52:42.000They say because they're true believers, they actually believe that.
00:52:47.000For example, that a trans kid is actually a trans kid, that they're born that way.
00:52:51.000There's nothing they can do to change it.
00:52:54.000And they have to undergo these, again, this is their view, not mine, but they have to undergo surgeries and hormone replacement and all the rest because this will conform with their affirmed view.
00:53:08.000And of course, this is something that the defense lawyer brought up right there when he was talking about twigs.
00:53:13.000I noticed that he did talk about it in the past tense.
00:53:16.000I don't know if I'm reading too much into that.
00:53:17.000But I know there was some speculation as to whether or not Twiggs is still affirming to that other gender, the fluidity.
00:53:26.000He looked a little less affirmative in his testimony.
00:53:55.000I think we're about five minutes out from Judge Graff reconvening the court.
00:54:01.000Will, you first, just any final thoughts about this before we close?
00:54:07.000Let's hope we're closing phase one of what has already been a quite exhausting journey.
00:54:14.000Yeah, I think it really is remarkable how long this takes, and it kind of makes me appreciate the federal system a little bit in the sense.
00:54:21.000We get the benefit of a public preliminary hearing.
00:54:24.000So we are in this unique circumstance where all these crazy conspiracy theories about Kirk's death.
00:54:29.000And so it's nice to be able to have all this evidence laid out in public much earlier than it would have been otherwise.
00:54:35.000But at the same time, it does make the overall process much more grueling in federal court, for example.
00:54:40.000What would have happened here is very simply by the time we even had this announced, there would have been a grand jury indictment, and we would have already been well into the pretrial process at this point.
00:54:50.000Now we're just about to start it, which is kind of crazy.
00:54:52.000I know I said we're summing up, but actually, there's something I totally should have asked both of you guys earlier.
00:54:56.000We were discussing earlier today with J Town, it came up at the start of today's hearing back and forth.
00:55:04.000The defense was bringing up that there is a polymarket account on whether Tyler Robinson will be convicted by the end of July next year.
00:55:11.000And they said it introduces bias because it can go up or down and that can suggest it can impute guilt to him.
00:55:19.000But we were just thinking all the other ways that could interfere with the case that a juror, a defense attorney, a prosecutor, a judge, it could induce ways to introduce corruption.
00:56:28.000And at the same time, though, and I'll throw it to Will because I know we talked about this earlier, but whether or not you have jury tampering, if there is a juror, who is perhaps trying to manipulate the case or simply manipulate their own standing on Polymarket by placing bets, by placing different options on Polymarket or Kalshi or any of these things by their own standing in the case, you're going to get caught.
00:57:25.000Will, what do you make of the polymarket question?
00:57:28.000Yeah, I mean, there's a good argument to ban it.
00:57:30.000I think, though, that the judge has a lot of tools to deal with it.
00:57:33.000As Jack said, you can deal with it post hoc, where you're sort of subpoenaing people and demanding their phones, right?
00:57:38.000Obviously, that word will probably get around because this person behaving.
00:57:41.000Uniquely, weirdly, in the jury room, will get around.
00:57:44.000There's also things you can do pre trial, which is like, you know, while you're swearing them in or doing voidir, you can actually, my suspicion is a judge could easily just make them attest under oath and, you know, ask them questions like, do you have a Polymarket or CalShe account?
00:57:59.000If you do, please specify what that account, your account information, to make it particularly easy to catch you in the future if this ever really becomes a problem.
00:58:08.000But yeah, I mean, you know, it's a speculative argument from the defense.
00:58:12.000There's the courts have an enormous number of tools to actually make sure that people behave in court and don't break the law, don't do things corruptly.
00:58:21.000You know, often I remember I've counseled clients at the time in the past about, you know, they've suggested, well, why don't we just defy this court order?
00:58:28.000And I have to explain, like, trust me, you don't even want to start down that road.
00:58:32.000The court has enormous coercive power when it wants to force you to comply with its orders.
00:58:38.000And in this case, you know, being a juror, like, if it wants to use the coercive power it has to force you to behave, it will.
00:59:17.000Blake, if I have a real quick final word on the viral clip that we're talking about, is my gosh, really sounds like the defense lawyer there is saying that this.
00:59:29.000Certainly was a big part of the motive for Tyler Robinson.
00:59:32.000And I know there have been a lot of questions as to who the shooter was and what the motive was.
00:59:37.000And it seems like Tyler Robinson's defense lawyer is giving it a lot of attention right there.
00:59:43.000Well, he certainly didn't give any attention at all to any alibi, any debunking of the core parts of the case, as we've pointed out.
00:59:52.000And if there was a strong argument there, I think they would have tried to spare their client a year in jail.
01:00:10.000We'll be back with all of you as soon as this hearing is over.
01:00:15.000I had the honor of a lifetime to call Charlie a friend.
01:00:20.000And what I remember most wasn't just what people saw on stage, it was what was behind the scenes.
01:00:26.000That was an unwavering commitment to his faith, his love for his family, and his genuine desire to encourage others to live with courage and conviction.
01:00:35.000Charlie believed that following Christ wasn't something you compartmentalize.
01:00:39.000He didn't put it in a box, he lived it out loud.
01:00:42.000It shaped how he lived, how he served, how he treated people every single day.
01:00:46.000Charlie Kirk, American Martyr, captures that heart.
01:00:49.000This documentary isn't just simply about remembering Charlie, it's an invitation for each of us to ask what kind of legacy we're building and whether we're willing to stand firm in our own faith when it's tested.
01:01:01.000I hope that you'll watch it with your family and have those conversations together.
01:01:41.000Uh, so thank you to everyone who's been enduring this with us.
01:01:45.000In the end, though, we got mostly the result we wanted.
01:01:49.000We got Judge Graff, he uh took about a half hour to read the whole thing, but he issued his ruling binding over Tyler Robinson on all charges.
01:02:01.000Uh, that includes aggravated murder, which means that Tyler Robinson remains eligible for the death penalty, pending, of course, a trial verdict.
01:02:14.000He entered pleas of not guilty on all charges.
01:02:19.000And then finally, at the end, we had discussion of when they will have their pretrial conference where they will likely set a future trial date.
01:02:28.000The prosecution said, let's just do this within two weeks.
01:02:32.000The defense said, we would like at least a month.
01:02:35.000And then they revealed, actually, I guess it turns out we can't do this until October 23rd, nearly two months away.
01:02:45.000And when they confer, we will actually get a trial date.
01:02:50.000We don't know when that will be, of course, but it does fit our pattern of everything about this taking as long as possible.
01:02:56.000But we did at least avoid any travesty where they decide, where if the judge decided to wait and release his ruling over the holiday or after the holiday, we didn't get any bonus delay just so that we could have a plea be entered by Mr. Robinson.
01:03:13.000We have gotten over the hump of the pre trial, the pre indictment period.
01:03:19.000We have an indicted defendant, Tyler Robinson.
01:04:30.000As we were listening to the judge read it, that really he probably could have just released the text of it and saved everyone a half hour of time of just very ponderous reading.
01:04:42.000But nevertheless, he did deign to read the whole thing.
01:04:45.000So for those who missed it, we may as well show the moment we were semi waiting for.
01:04:52.000This is Judge Graff reaching his decision on whether to let count one aggravated murder be bound over.
01:05:01.000The court's determination does not rest on crowd size alone or an assumption, assumed probability of wind, ricochet, overpenetration, or bullet deflection.
01:05:13.000It rests on the evidence concerning the location and manner of the shot, the documented position of several individuals in and around the canopy area, defendant's opportunity to observe those circumstances, and the preliminary hearing requirement that reasonable inferences be drawn in the state's favor.
01:05:32.000Whether the state can prove the aggravating circumstance beyond a reasonable doubt remains for trial.
01:06:07.000There was a lot of discussion of how many people were near Charlie when the shooting happened, how close were they?
01:06:15.000And he says, yeah, there's other court cases that talk about people firing multiple shots, how specifically close people need to be, but those are only, they're guideposts.
01:06:26.000They aren't absolute limits to what it is.
01:06:29.000And it's as the prosecution said, there's not that many cases of assassination like this in general.
01:06:35.000And so every instance is sort of its own case.
01:06:39.000And so we got all of those defense arguments, but the judge said, that is up for a jury, that is up for a trial to determine it.
01:07:42.000My guess is we'll see what we saw here, which the prosecution will say, we're happy to do this four months from now, and the defense will say, we're going to need a year.
01:07:50.000And the judge will, somehow it'll end up that we'll do it a year and a half later.
01:07:55.000They'll just combine the two amounts that they have and there we'll go.
01:07:59.000Yeah, we just went from a negotiation of two weeks to six.
01:08:27.000We have a statement from Erica right here.
01:08:29.000Yes, let's read that actually as we wait.
01:08:32.000We're still hoping, hopefully, we'll get someone who is at the scene to join us.
01:08:36.000But yes, Erica, this was posted on X shortly after Judge Graff's ruling on this statement on behalf of the Kirk family.
01:08:46.000Today's decision, which comes nearly one year since Charlie was taken from us.
01:08:51.000Marks an important step in our family's pursuit of justice for him.
01:08:55.000Every step in this process carries the weight of all that Charlie's murder has taken from his family, especially his children who will grow up without their father.
01:09:03.000We are grateful to all who have continued to pray for us, support us, and stand with us through a year of unimaginable grief.
01:09:11.000As the next phase of the judicial process begins, our family remains united in our love for Charlie, our commitment to the pursuit of justice, and our prayer for a transparent and timely.
01:09:23.000I think the word timely is carrying a lot there.
01:09:27.000This is, I mean, this is stressful for us.
01:09:30.000It's stressful for Turning Point and the show team, but it's especially stressful for Erica and her family.
01:09:39.000They want to know that Charlie's killer is held accountable, that justice is found for that.
01:09:46.000And I think the longer this goes on, it means more days where they have to travel to Utah.
01:09:53.000It means more people pushing insane stuff on the internet, more personal attacks on her and other members of their family, and just means more uncertainty, more of that worry, as we were discussing with Jack and Will Chamberlain, more worry that the defense is going to successfully plant these seeds where they're attacking Charlie, where they're leaving the way open for some sort of jury nullification, rogue juror intervention.
01:10:19.000It's more stuff that can go wrong, the longer the process drags out, stretches out.
01:10:24.000There's just more complications that come into play.
01:10:54.000If you go game theory, I suppose, there's no incentives for it that.
01:10:58.000The main reason anyone pleads guilty is to get a lower sentence.
01:11:02.000Usually you'll see that because the prosecution, they want to save time and they say, we'll take the death penalty off the table if you plead guilty.
01:11:09.000It seems prosecutors have not offered that so far.
01:12:06.000Questions, if you do send them questions or comments, you can email us freedom at charliekirk.com or I'm scanning the Rumble chat right now.
01:12:48.000Yeah, instead, we didn't even get arguments until after the lunch.
01:12:51.000It makes you wonder how long will the actual trial go, is what's making me wonder where they can go absolutely all out for every single witness, every single video.
01:13:06.000They can do their maximal objections on every single aspect of it.
01:13:10.000And you wonder, are we going to get a trial that goes on for three weeks, a month, longer?
01:13:16.000I've never seen anything like it, but there aren't any questions.
01:13:59.000Again, the big highlight today, other than the decision from Judge Graff, was Richard Novak just lobbed that attack at Charlie, called him a hater.
01:14:11.000Lucas emailed in and he said Could Novak just have been trying to get a rise out of Erica or anyone else pro Charlie in the courtroom?
01:14:21.000To cause a disturbance, potentially creating a cause for mistrial.
01:14:28.000I think it's the most likely thing is what Jack speculated on when he was with us, which is planting the seeds well in advance to start tearing down the character of Charlie for the reason you create that space for one juror who decides, ooh, Charlie seemed like a mean guy, he seemed like an extremist.
01:14:51.000We know who the real Charlie was, but a lot of people didn't know him that well.
01:14:54.000They just know he was a guy who debated people on campus.
01:14:58.000And they might try to exploit that ignorance from a lot of people to make someone's brain fill in the blanks and go, oh, this is probably some big firebrand who was constantly saying stuff to rile people up.
01:15:24.000Yeah, jury nullification scares me too, in addition to poly market stuff, all the things we talked about earlier today.
01:15:31.000We've covered it on the show just in general, but the jury nullification, how these leftists will try to purposely get on a jury and vote not guilty.
01:15:41.000And they're literally trained to do this.
01:15:51.000We got an email from Mick who says, Not the only case these lawyers or this court are dealing with, and that's why we must make a conscious effort at the state and federal level to speed up trials.
01:16:03.000I think about what I've taken from this process meaningful takeaways.
01:16:08.000We were discussing maybe we should ban these prediction markets about these criminal cases because that's introducing bad incentives.
01:16:15.000But if I had another takeaway from this, I might just say we should be spending a few billion dollars extra on our court system to just have more courthouses.
01:16:25.000More judges, more bailiffs, more people involved.
01:16:29.000And then the only reason to do this is to have more cases.
01:16:33.000We're building a wider pipe so that you can force more justice through the pipe system.
01:16:39.000Because it seems ever since COVID happened, I think everything's slowed down in America.
01:16:45.000Every criminal justice proceeding is just that glacial pace, and it's what's making people feel frustrated with the system.
01:16:56.000Onto a debate stage or behind a microphone, Charlie understood something really important that if you want to lead, you first have to learn.
01:17:04.000Charlie believed that ideas shape character, conviction, and courage.
01:17:08.000That's why he spent years studying the classics, the American founding, and the Bible through Hillsdale College's free online courses.
01:17:14.000He would rave about these courses all the time.
01:17:16.000These free online courses are taught by Hillsdale College professors and draw from the same great books and enduring ideas studied on Hillsdale's campus.
01:17:25.000Hillsdale's newest free online course is the Iliad, where Professor Stephen Smith Guides students through Homer's great epic of honor, courage, friendship, leadership, and the pursuit of true greatness.
01:17:36.000For nearly 3,000 years, the Iliad has shaped the Western imagination.
01:17:39.000It tells the story of Achilles as he confronts injustice, rage, grief, responsibility, and the terrible costs of war.
01:17:46.000But Homer's epic is more than a story of ancient battles.
01:17:49.000It raises enduring questions about courage, duty, leadership, sacrifice, and self command.
01:17:55.000Achilles is the greatest warrior among the Greeks, but Homer asks whether strength alone is enough to make a man truly great.
01:18:01.000In this new free online course, you'll follow Achilles through the defining trials of his life and discover why one of the greatest works of Western literature still speaks to the permanent questions of human life.
01:18:12.000Charlie understood that learning isn't just about gaining knowledge, it's about forming the mind and character needed to face the challenges of life.
01:18:19.000With wisdom and courage, you can enroll today completely free and take this class or their 40 plus other free online courses.
01:18:26.000Just visit charlieforhillsdale.com to start learning today.
01:18:59.000What was going on there with Richard Novak?
01:19:02.000He went up there and he began calling Charlie a hater, said he hated people who were not straight, hated people who were different gender identities, just lashed out.
01:19:25.000You know, it's interesting because when you get into the courtroom, you know, Judge Graff gives you, everybody in the courtroom, instructions not to shake your head, not to nod.
01:19:36.000They basically just sit there and be still.
01:19:39.000And it was the one moment today where when that came out of Novak's mouth, that we just, nobody could help themselves.
01:19:47.000It was just a complete reaction of just disgust, disbelief.
01:19:56.000Fathom that this guy would basically spit on Charlie's grave like that, right?
01:20:02.000You know, on national television, everybody's watching all over.
01:20:06.000And to just have the utter disregard for not only the victim in this case, but his widow that's sitting in the courtroom, Paul doesn't even come close to what I was thinking.
01:20:20.000But then I quickly realized that he's making the state's case for them.
01:20:28.000He's basically saying, well, we have no idea that Tyler Robbins would even consider Charlie Kirk or didn't know anything about it.
01:20:41.000So it was almost like this mask off moment where you're seeing the quality of the man or something.
01:20:47.000I mean, what he truly believes, what truly motivates this attorney, it's just, I don't want to speculate what his motives were for saying that.
01:20:57.000But I mean, I think his words speak for itself.
01:21:03.000But I can tell you, just everybody was applauding and so grateful for Jeff Nyman when he went up there and he said, just so succinctly, that believing in traditional values, espousing your political beliefs is not hate.
01:21:20.000Shooting an innocent man who is exercising his rights and his political expression is hate.
01:22:00.000We had Jack on, we were discussing one potential motive could be they're just planting these little seeds in the ground.
01:22:08.000For way out, when we finally get to a jury trial, they want to lay the groundwork where you could have one holdout juror who decides Charlie, not a very likable guy, was an extremist, maybe had it coming, and they're going to make it.
01:22:23.000They might vote to acquit, they might vote to withhold the death penalty, especially.
01:22:28.000That's what we were speculating on about it.
01:22:30.000But let's again, you were in the room that day.
01:22:33.000We were, since you're not aware, we were just watching it.
01:22:36.000We basically had a camera that was just permanently fixed on.
01:22:39.000The back of the head of whoever was talking at any time.
01:22:42.000We didn't hear or see really anything else in the room.
01:22:46.000Were there any moments throughout the day, besides Mr. Novak's bizarre tangent, that got a strong reaction from the Peanut Gallery?
01:22:58.000And especially, we know there were several people who are overtly Tyler Robinson supporters.
01:23:05.000Did his side digression get any reaction from them a certain way, or did anything else get a reaction from them?
01:23:12.000No, I mean, you know, people in that courtroom are pretty, I would say, reserved in general.
01:23:19.000Obviously, the other big moment was, you know, hearing that, you know, the state's asking for two weeks to come back together at the end there.
01:23:28.000And then the defense is saying, how about 30 days?
01:23:32.000And then to see Judge Graf go, how about October 23rd?
01:23:35.000And there was kind of another moment of just, I think, frustration, you know, and you could feel it within the, Those of us that were watching inside, it was like, wait, I could have seen two weeks, four weeks, let's spit the baby and do it in three weeks.
01:23:55.000Or, hey, let's do a virtual in three weeks and we'll do it in between both times.
01:24:02.000It was like, oh, I have this opening in the courtroom apparently October 23rd.
01:24:08.000So that was extraordinarily frustrating.
01:24:11.000And once again, Jeff Nyman was sort of the voice of reason saying, okay, but if you're going to push it this far, We need a trial date set when we do that.
01:24:21.000So I can't, again, presume to understand what's inside the mind of Judge Graff, but like that moment was another head scratcher.
01:24:30.000I will tell you early on when they were debating this EMC, which is the electronic media, I guess, you know, kind of back and forth, you know, could you have cameras or whatever?
01:24:41.000And the representative for the news media came up and said a few words and then, Nestor, the defense attorney, came up and basically just lambasted him, said, You know, I don't know what the hell he's talking about, basically.
01:24:56.000And when she walked back, I mean, she shot daggers at that media representative.
01:25:02.000I mean, just the stare was something I noticed early on.
01:25:08.000And it was really, really noticeable for me.
01:25:11.000And, you know, and there's just kind of a lot of this body language from Novak, from Mr. Burt, that just seems kind of exasperated, kind of.
01:25:22.000You know, they're putting a lot of that out there, I will say, that kind of energy, which I was not aware of when I was just watching it on television.
01:25:31.000But when you're in the room, you can feel their emotions that they're putting out there.
01:25:35.000You know, they do, I would say, a passable job of remaining professional, but you just can feel it oozing off of them, the contempt that they have sometimes for an argument or for something the state says, and vice versa.
01:25:50.000You know, the state is, you know, I think you can feel the energy from them that this case, there's such a mountain of evidence against Tyler Robinson being the one that pulled the trigger that they are, Equally as flummox that they're trying to scrape together some sort of defense.
01:26:05.000You can feel them kind of going, You got to be kidding me half the time, right?
01:26:10.000And so you kind of perceive that energy off of them in the way they sit up from their chair and the stand up from their chair and the way they approach the podium.
01:26:20.000Like these are things that I wasn't perceiving online or watching over television that you could feel.
01:26:26.000I mean, they feel very confident about their case.
01:26:29.000You can feel it in the way that they present it, the way that they talk about it, and the way they counter the defense's arguments.
01:26:37.000So I genuinely kind of was sitting there going, I can't imagine being the defense and trying to come up with some semblance of a defense for this guy.
01:26:46.000I just, you know, they have a really tough job.
01:26:48.000I think we have to all acknowledge, like, you know, they're looking at technicalities.
01:26:52.000They're looking at, you know, maybe a slight of a constitutional right here or there.
01:27:00.000They're trying to piece together some sort of way to get these aggravating factors off.
01:27:04.000And that's really what I've learned about these guys they're all crusaders against.
01:27:09.000This is why lawyers like this travel around the country and they take high profile cases like this because they disagree ideologically or politically with the death penalty in general.
01:27:21.000And so they're there just to kind of figure out how to get him off death row.
01:27:26.000Andrew, did it surprise you that they spent more time trying to dismiss the witness tampering charges than they did actually the murder charge itself?
01:27:34.000Yeah, no, it didn't really surprise me because, again, what I know about these.
01:27:39.000These lawyers, these defense lawyers, is they, I mean, I, you know, again, I don't know.
01:27:45.000I haven't talked to them, but when I'm just kind of reading between the lines here, it feels like, hey, we're conceding a lot here, but we don't think this should be aggravating.
01:27:55.000I mean, they seem to be throwing the best use of their time, the most minutes, the most ink, all about trying to dismiss these aggravating factors or at least to weaken the state's position.
01:28:09.000But again, The evidence is, I mean, what do you say about, you know, some hate just can't be negotiated out?
01:28:16.000And to my knowledge, they haven't even contested the veracity of the confessions or the Discord chats or the text messages.
01:28:41.000That provide a lot of evidence that Charlie was targeted because of his political expression, and it was a politically motivated assassination.
01:28:49.000So, I don't know, again, how they're going to try and weasel their way out of those things because the evidence is hard.
01:29:10.000But, Yeah, I don't know where they go from here.
01:29:14.000And what was the body language of the judge when they went after Charlie like that, or just when they've been really nasty in general?
01:29:23.000You know, I didn't perceive any change in the judge's body language in that moment, but candidly, I was so, I just couldn't believe what I was hearing that I think I turned to my right and then to my left, and I was looking around.
01:29:38.000And I remember I shot a look over to the media where the media is sitting in the jury box, and they were, you could even tell that they realized something big had just happened, something sort of newsworthy, and they were kind of, Moving around, their bodies moving around.
01:29:55.000And so I actually kind of didn't look at Judge Graff, but I remember being sort of wondering is he going to say, hey, that's out of line?
01:30:05.000I don't even play one on TV like Blake does.
01:30:07.000So I didn't, I don't know if that lawyer stepped out of line or broke some sort of protocol or if the judge could have brought him to heel a little bit in that moment.
01:30:17.000But that was the next thing I was looking for, and he didn't.
01:30:21.000And so I was, you know, really glad when we got back from break that the state said we take great exception.
01:30:27.000To you describing Charlie's political views as hateful?
01:30:30.000Because in that moment, I mean, you know, Henry Novak exposed himself as somebody that is obviously of a liberal persuasion that does not agree with traditional values or Christian morality.
01:30:49.000But I really don't know what the judge did.
01:30:51.000Yeah, we're also glad that Jeff countered because we didn't know from our point of view if Jeff went and talked to the state and that's what made them go up or if they actually did this on their own.
01:31:02.000So, in those breaks, what was happening during those breaks?
01:31:06.000You know, if Jeff talked to him, I didn't see it.
01:31:10.000You know, they kind of shuttle us back into these holding rooms.
01:31:13.000And, you know, the only one that's kind of able to maneuver about is Jeff.
01:31:18.000So it's possible, but, you know, he certainly didn't communicate that to me if he did.
01:31:22.000But I think it was kind of the biggie on the eye chart.
01:31:26.000Like, as soon as he said, you know, Charlie said hateful things and all this stuff, I mean, everybody's jaw dropped.
01:31:33.000And, I could see that the state was already queuing in on that.
01:31:39.000And I think the state made the obvious connection that the rest of us did that, hey, this guy's making our case for us, even if he's being a jerk.
01:31:47.000And, you know, I think that they came in prepared to sort of address that.
01:31:52.000You know, this is, you know, Utah is a conservative state, but this is the conservative part of Utah where we're at, where this courthouse is, right?
01:32:01.000It's, you know, I would venture to guess probably 10 to 15 points.
01:32:05.000More to the right in an election than Salt Lake City, for example, or even the suburbs of Salt Lake City, because we're well to the south of Salt Lake City.
01:32:17.000And locals kind of talk about Salt Lake as being that liberal hellhole, even here, even though Salt Lake's probably relatively moderate for most big cities.
01:32:25.000But where we're at is pretty conservative.
01:32:28.000So I can only imagine that the prosecution kind of keyed in on that all on their own.
01:32:47.000It's taken 51 weeks for us to get to this point.
01:32:54.000We have an actual indictment, we have a criminal charge, we will be going to a trial.
01:33:01.000We don't know when that will be yet, unfortunately, but we've at least gotten over that first phase, as it were.
01:33:08.000Yeah, so I will say, like, a couple things being in the courtroom.
01:33:12.000One, I mean, when you first walk in there, the first thing that I sort of noticed was just there's Tyler Robinson sitting there and he's like ghost white.
01:33:25.000When I first sat down, he was like looking at one of his lawyers and he kind of had a smirk and they were kind of, I think it was Novak actually, and they were kind of smirking, laughing back and forth.
01:33:36.000And that really bothered me, actually.
01:34:18.000The formalities of it feel, make it feel very real.
01:34:22.000And, you know, the other thing that really kind of, and I felt so terrible for Erica because, you know, when he's reading that like huge long ruling at the end, which, by the way, just took forever and all the like legal references and like, I mean, it was, you know, I get that they have to record it for the record, but it's like, man, it just took, it takes a long time.
01:34:47.000But they keep saying like, and, you know, The assassination of Charlie, or when he killed him, or when he was pronounced dead, or like, and every time they say that, it's like a dagger, man.
01:34:59.000It just hurts when you're hearing it in person.
01:35:02.000And then, you know, you just know that Erica's sitting there listening to it time and time again.
01:35:10.000Like, to us, I mean, you know, I don't want to even put myself in the same realm as what Erica's going through, but, you know, Charlie was my dear friend too.
01:35:21.000And to hear it every time, it's just hard.
01:35:24.000And it's very human, you know, like just kind of, you know, we all have jobs, we all have things to do, but when you're in there, you're just like, you're just at mercy to the moment.
01:35:35.000And it just sucks to hear them say it so many times in one day.
01:36:11.000So it's actually only at 43% precisely because this case is expected to go on for so long.
01:36:17.000And that caused a lot of discussion here about the potential for making.
01:36:24.000Corrupt behavior easier that you could have a juror, a defense attorney, a prosecutor, a judge, any number of people.
01:36:31.000Yeah, they can see that market, and there's potential to manipulate it or to try to manipulate it in any number of ways.
01:36:39.000You could have the defense go and buy shares that he's not guilty, and then some juror looks at that and goes, Oh, the people think the case is mixed or whatever.
01:37:09.000But say somebody like Judge Graff was in a position and he's looking at the prediction markets and it's saying, we'll be convicted by such and such a date.
01:37:17.000Well, he easily could, you know, change the date and he could push the proceedings back.
01:37:24.000I mean, we saw that at the end today where he's kind of like looking at the calendar and, you know, he could just pick a different date.
01:37:30.000I mean, that's a small way to be corrupt, but, you know, who knows who could benefit from that?
01:37:38.000And calling on our Congress to pass a law immediately as first opportunity, banning prediction markets from any of these like criminal proceedings and then working out from there.
01:37:50.000I'm sure there's a dozen other use cases in which it would be helpful to the country and for our institutions to ban this crap because it can be gamed, it can be manipulated, it could be the tool of corrupt magistrates in this case or jurors even to game it.
01:38:22.000I can't really see what the value add is at all for society to have betting markets on a murder trial.
01:38:30.000And similarly, I feel the duration that this has taken, where these guys are saying, yeah, well, I've got another case.
01:38:38.000So, you want two weeks, we want four weeks, let's compromise at seven weeks.
01:38:43.000Before we have a discussion of when the next trial would be, I think a good argument to be made.
01:38:48.000Let's blow a few billion dollars on our criminal justice thing, build some extra courtrooms, hire a few extra judges, hire extra lawyers, prosecutors, get more going through the system.
01:39:00.000I want the next time we have a case like this, we should be able to have a verdict within.
01:39:06.000We should be getting the verdict at this point.
01:39:08.000We should be getting a sentence at this point.
01:39:10.000We should not be getting an indictment 51 weeks after Charlie died.
01:39:14.000No, and here's the thing it was almost like you could see.
01:39:17.000Kathy Nestor's wheels turning in her head when they're talking about when to schedule the next hearing to come up with a court date.
01:39:23.000She's like, well, we might have to litigate this and we might file this motion and we might challenge this.
01:39:28.000And it's like, dear God, like, I mean, this, this, I mean, they, I mean, these people are professionals, right?
01:40:20.000Play out in his mind how they're going to potentially game the system to overturn this on appeal.
01:40:25.000And so he's, you know, in some ways I feel for the judge because he's constantly having to say, I have to have the appearance of fairness in everything I do, give them plenty of time, or else this thing's going to be overturned on appeal.
01:40:40.000In the meantime, as you guys know, we get this void, this vacuum that gets filled by people that are bad actors, bad faith actors, conspiracists, and, you know, they use this time.
01:40:50.000To then drift off the system, come up with a YouTube content or whatever.
01:40:55.000And it's all, none of it is fair to Erica.
01:41:42.000But my point is, and then, you know, as a reward for the state of Utah and their taxpayers, they're now on the hook for $10 million to just pay for this guy's defense.
01:41:52.000So, yeah, expedited trials, limit some of this game playing and the intentional throwing wrenches into the gears of the judicial process.
01:42:04.000I mean, there's so many reforms that can be made, guys.
01:42:06.000By the way, here's one for you that nobody talks about.
01:42:08.000These people that have made a profession of harassing Erica Kirk or me or Blake or Turning Point, like the fact that they can just sit there in the courtroom because they waited however many hours to get these tickets, like, why is it not on a lottery system?
01:42:25.000Why don't they have some other system where the worst actors are able to get seats in a courtroom and then harass us further on the way out?
01:42:36.000Because we made a face or we shook our head or whatever they're going to say.
01:42:40.000So that's another thing that occurs to me.
01:43:20.000I've got zero goodwill to try and understand where they're coming from, frankly, because, you know, listen, I can understand people having questions.
01:43:32.000To turn any of that into the character assassination smear campaign against Erica Kirk that they've done and that they seem to, to, to, find joy in some sick satisfaction and that's when it turns into an evil thing.
01:43:46.000And because of that, I mean as a matter of fact, I think any of these people that are engaging in this like just disgusting behavior frankly shouldn't be allowed in that courtroom to harass further.
01:43:56.000We know their motivation, but you know I digress.
01:44:00.000I don't always get my way, but you know thinking out loud here.
01:44:05.000Well, I don't know if you saw that TPSA front lines did catch a big group of high school and college Turning Point chapter students supporting outside the courtroom.
01:44:14.000Did you guys see any of that on your way out?
01:44:17.000Yeah, we saw a bunch of them holding signs.
01:46:07.000And knowing people are praying for us is, it's like, I can't explain it to people, but I feel like my whole Christian life, people be like, I'm praying for you, and it kind of like rolled off me.
01:46:17.000I'm telling you, when somebody says they're praying for us, it means so much, and it really hits hard.
01:46:34.000Be glad that today we saw the wheel of justice grinds very, very slowly, but it does grind very, very fine, as a friend of mine reminded me today.
01:47:04.000Charlie on the one year anniversary and to keep pushing his mission forward because we're focused on the trial today, but a lot of stuff is still going on.
01:47:16.000The mission of Turning Point USA continues, the mission of faith revival, the mission of national values, the conservative values that made America so great, all of that continues as well.
01:47:29.000So, honoring Charlie continues, getting justice for Charlie continues.
01:47:34.000The work of saving this country continues as well.
01:47:38.000And we're grateful to everyone who's been inspired by Charlie, who's joined us in this movement.
01:47:44.000Thank you to everyone who joined us today.