The Charlie Kirk Show - Vaccines: What Should A New Parent Do?

00:00:03.000 My name is Charlie Kirk.

00:00:05.000 I run the largest pro-American student organization in the country fighting for the future of our republic.

00:00:11.000 My call is to fight evil and to proclaim truth.

00:00:14.000 If the most important thing for you is just feeling good, you're going to end up miserable.

00:00:19.000 But if the most important thing is doing good, you'll end up purposeful.

00:00:24.000 College is a scam, everybody.

00:00:26.000 You got to stop sending your kids to college.

00:00:27.000 You should get married as young as possible and have as many kids as possible.

00:00:31.000 Go start a Turning Point USA college chapter.

00:00:33.000 Go start a Turning Point USA high school chapter.

00:00:35.000 Go find out how your church can get involved.

00:00:37.000 Sign up and become an activist.

00:00:39.000 I gave my life to the Lord in fifth grade.

00:00:41.000 Most important decision I ever made in my life.

00:00:43.000 And I encourage you to do the same.

00:00:45.000 Here I am.

00:00:46.000 Lord, use me.

00:00:48.000 Buckle up, everybody.

00:00:49.000 Here we go.

00:00:56.000 The Charlie Kirk Show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers.

00:01:09.000 Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:01:13.000 We're going to have a long-form discussion about some changes that are happening at the CDC, conversations that are continuing to evolve when it comes to vaccines and autism, about the Hep B shot, and getting deep into questions that we receive here at the Charlie Kirk Show from moms all around the country wanting to know how they should be addressing and thinking about the issues that come up when they have their own children, when they're pregnant.

00:01:39.000 There's so much here and so much practical discussions that we need to have for you out there in the audience that we wanted to bring in two experts of this area.

00:01:50.000 It's a very dynamic area.

00:01:52.000 There's a lot of confusion about it.

00:01:54.000 And that's what this conversation is designed to do: to bring clarity in a sea of confusion where there's still a lot of questions.

00:02:01.000 And to help us navigate this very important topic, is Dr. Joel Gator Warsh, his MD and author of a new book, Between a Shot and a Hard Place, right here.

00:02:15.000 You can find him on X and Instagram at Dr. JoelGator.

00:02:19.000 Thank you so much for joining us.

00:02:20.000 I know that Alex Clark has also had you on panels at our events, and it's honored to have you back with us here.

00:02:27.000 It's an honor to be here, and I really appreciate you guys having a vaccine talk.

00:02:30.000 I know that that is not something that everyone's willing to do, and I think it's so important.

00:02:34.000 Well, there's no way to honor Charlie Kirk, the namesake of the show, than talking about this topic because he was passionate about it.

00:02:42.000 And the second guest that we have here is Aaron Siri.

00:02:47.000 He's also the, he's the, so let me get all of your titles here because there's a few.

00:02:51.000 You're civil rights attorney.

00:02:52.000 You're the managing partner of Siri and Gilmstad LLP.

00:02:57.000 Your website is SiriLLP.com.

00:03:00.000 And you're the author of this book, Vaccines, Amen, which has just come out.

00:03:06.000 And you guys were, before we took the show here, you guys were both read each other's stuff.

00:03:11.000 So this is going to be a really fantastic conversation back and forth.

00:03:15.000 And it's not a debate.

00:03:16.000 It really is.

00:03:17.000 There's just so many practical questions that parents and families are having about this topic.

00:03:23.000 And there's been some new changes at the CDC.

00:03:26.000 Obviously, RFK is now head of HHS.

00:03:29.000 There's a lot of controversy about that, a lot of discussion about that.

00:03:33.000 So we want to just try and help bring clarity to a dynamic conversation.

00:03:37.000 So here to help us also bring clarity to this is Riley Marty.

00:03:40.000 She is our resident Maha expert.

00:03:43.000 And you're just a fan of all things health related.

00:03:47.000 You and Charlie shared that in common.

00:03:49.000 And so thank you for joining as well and for setting this up.

00:03:52.000 So let's get into it.

00:03:54.000 These are, there's two things.

00:03:56.000 I want to take the first thing.

00:03:58.000 I think it's a little easier to wrap our brains around and there's probably fewer questions, but it's very, very important.

00:04:05.000 And so that'll be kind of our on-ramp into this larger vaccine discussion.

00:04:09.000 So on December 5th, the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization, so ACIP or ACIP, voted 8 to 3 to drop the long-standing universal recommendation that every newborn receive hepatitis B vaccines.

00:04:23.000 I will tell you, I have three small kids.

00:04:26.000 When they start, when you have a baby in the hospital and they just start shooting things into the baby and they're putting, you know, you're like, you don't even, many parents are probably like me, especially with our first, where you had no idea that was even going to happen.

00:04:39.000 And you're wondering, like, it must be necessary they're doing this.

00:04:42.000 So when it comes to Hep B, let's explain the logic originally.

00:04:47.000 Maybe first with you, Dr. Gator.

00:04:49.000 What was the logic of making it mandatory?

00:04:53.000 The CDC was advising it.

00:04:55.000 Now they are no longer.

00:04:56.000 What was the original rationale for that and why the change?

00:05:00.000 So originally when the hepatitis B vaccine was brought out, it was more for high-risk groups because the main way that you would get it would be like an STD through sexual contact or through drug use.

00:05:10.000 But there were still tens of thousands of cases every year.

00:05:13.000 And so they decided that they would recommend that to all babies in the first day of life to get the hepatitis B to decrease those cases near down to zero.

00:05:23.000 And the reality is it did work pretty well.

00:05:25.000 I mean, we did see a big decrease in the hepatitis B disease, but that is still mainly coming from individuals who had hepatitis B as mom, passing it on to the baby. 0.95

00:05:37.000 It was extremely rare.

00:05:38.000 It's still extremely rare for a baby who's born to a hepatitis B negative mother to get hepatitis B. Is it possible?

00:05:45.000 Yes, it is possible that a test could be wrong, that you could get hepatitis B after you do the testing, or somebody could come by and bleed on your baby.

00:05:55.000 But again, that's extremely, extremely rare.

00:05:57.000 We're talking like one in a million to one in seven million by best guesses.

00:06:01.000 And so when you're talking about the medical community, a lot of times you only hear about benefits.

00:06:07.000 And a lot of doctors are saying, well, we want to make sure every single baby gets hepatitis B vaccine so that no babies ever get it.

00:06:13.000 And the reality is, I don't want any baby to get hepatitis B or any infection at all.

00:06:17.000 But you have to weigh the risks versus the benefits.

00:06:20.000 And there are risks to any intervention that we do, any medication and any vaccine.

00:06:25.000 And we're not acknowledging that in the medical community.

00:06:27.000 And I think for something that's so rare, let's say it's one in a million, you have to ask, giving this vaccine to 3 million kids that don't necessarily need it to protect one kid, is that worth it?

00:06:38.000 Within the first 24 hours of life?

00:06:39.000 Within the first 24 hours of life.

00:06:41.000 And then you're talking about the known risks and the unknown risks.

00:06:44.000 And a lot of other countries have looked at that calculation and said, you know what, we're going to only recommend it to high-risk babies.

00:06:44.000 And you have to weigh that.

00:06:51.000 And so what we decided, what ASIP decided was that they are going to go to this high-risk group decision where you're not necessarily going to recommend it for every baby.

00:07:00.000 If you are in that high-risk group, you could, you do it.

00:07:02.000 If you want to do it, you can still do it.

00:07:04.000 But now it's a shared clinical decision-making versus an explicit recommendation.

00:07:08.000 It was never mandatory per se.

00:07:10.000 It was just a recommendation.

00:07:12.000 And now they're removing that recommendation in place of making it shared clinical decision making.

00:07:16.000 So you're saying that basically this new advisory or this new decision 8-3, which remember, and you were educating me on this, and I remember the story, is that, you know, RFK came in.

00:07:28.000 He basically removed the 17 members of ASIP, right?

00:07:33.000 I don't know what you would call them, the voting.

00:07:36.000 Voting members.

00:07:37.000 And now they haven't replaced all of them yet.

00:07:40.000 But this is an 8-3 vote to drop this universal recommendation.

00:07:45.000 And you're, I guess, you were discussing this before we took on the show here.

00:07:52.000 But you were saying that some of the risks are fever, Other known risks that maybe would be potentially worse than, I guess I wouldn't say worse, but you have to know the risk, right?

00:08:06.000 This is this is an informed consent idea.

00:08:08.000 Right.

00:08:09.000 I mean, we know that there's a risk of fever, and in the hepatitis B trials, it was about one to five percent.

00:08:13.000 And if a newborn gets a fever, that's a big deal.

00:08:15.000 They're getting a full workup, they're getting a lumbar puncture, so that's something to keep in mind.

00:08:19.000 We also know that they can have encephalitis and encephalopathy.

00:08:22.000 We know that they can have autoimmune conditions like Jan Bray syndrome.

00:08:25.000 That's just what we know.

00:08:27.000 And then there's all the things that we don't know because by and large, we haven't really studied it long term.

00:08:32.000 We're not really sure what it does to the immune system long term and if there are long-term complications.

00:08:36.000 And that gets controversial.

00:08:37.000 But to me, you have to take that into account when you're saying that you're protecting only one out of a million or one out of three million kids for something that you're giving to all of these kids.

00:08:46.000 So I don't think it's unreasonable to have those discussions.

00:08:49.000 That's what they decided.

00:08:50.000 When the medical community gets upset, they're looking at just the benefits, just the kids that are protected.

00:08:56.000 But that's not the only thing in the decision tree here.

00:08:58.000 And we have to get back to that risk versus benefit analysis.

00:09:01.000 And we just haven't been, I don't know why medicine doesn't want to do that.

00:09:04.000 I don't understand.

00:09:05.000 Just to be clear, so for the audience's sake, Dr. Warsh, you prefer Gator or what?

00:09:11.000 Wars?

00:09:11.000 I get called Gator.

00:09:13.000 I don't care.

00:09:14.000 Would you describe yourself as anti-vaxx?

00:09:15.000 Absolutely not.

00:09:16.000 I mean, you can ask any patient that's been in my office recently that has gotten a vaccine.

00:09:20.000 I believe in informed consent.

00:09:21.000 I believe people should be able to choose what they feel like is best for them.

00:09:25.000 I have patients in my office that do the regular schedule, some that do a slow schedule, some that don't do it.

00:09:29.000 We have discussions.

00:09:30.000 We talk about what we know and what we don't know.

00:09:31.000 And then they come up with that decision.

00:09:33.000 I've never forced anybody to do anything.

00:09:35.000 Got it.

00:09:36.000 Just wanted establishing the record here.

00:09:38.000 So, Aaron, so you're a civil rights attorney.

00:09:43.000 I found it interesting.

00:09:45.000 Just little things I'm picking up as the layman here, where technically it wasn't mandated to get the HEP B shot, but I don't feel like, and I'm trying to remember back to my own experience.

00:09:56.000 I don't remember, and now my kids were born in California, so maybe it's different.

00:10:00.000 I don't know.

00:10:02.000 But I don't remember feeling like there was much informed consent with Hep B.

00:10:06.000 It was just kind of done.

00:10:08.000 And is there a civil rights component to this?

00:10:12.000 You were just at ASIP.

00:10:13.000 You literally flew here, I think, yesterday.

00:10:16.000 You came back yesterday or this morning.

00:10:18.000 So you were in and around this whole debate that was ongoing.

00:10:24.000 So give us the HEP B story from your vantage point.

00:10:28.000 And are there civil rights implications to this?

00:10:30.000 Sure.

00:10:31.000 I'll add one data point on the safety side.

00:10:34.000 I've never heard or not aware of a single baby that's ever died from Hep B on the first day of life.

00:10:41.000 But I can tell you definitively that babies have died on the first day of life and the Hep B shot.

00:10:46.000 Okay.

00:10:47.000 So, including one that was adjudicated not long ago in something called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, which is the federal program where you can get compensation if you're injured by a vaccine.

00:10:56.000 And there was a baby that was adjudicated as having died from the Hep B shot on the first day of life.

00:11:03.000 Also, another just quick data point, I'll go to the civil rights question: is the very first hepatitis B vaccine was in 1981.

00:11:09.000 It was based, it was actually made using the plasma, the blood, of those who are chronic hepatitis B carriers.

00:11:16.000 There were under 300 deaths in America from hepatitis B in 1980.

00:11:20.000 We are now well over 1,500 deaths a year on hepatitis B.

00:11:24.000 Okay, so we haven't actually gone down in mortality, which is an interesting data point.

00:11:28.000 Do you know what's causing that increase?

00:11:29.000 I'll leave that together.

00:11:32.000 But it's interesting because they always talk about, well, you know, we have to reduce, whenever mortality goes down, they immediately attribute it to the vaccine.

00:11:40.000 But when mortality goes up, nobody wants to look.

00:11:44.000 But let's leave that aside.

00:11:46.000 Let's put the data aside.

00:11:47.000 On the civil rights side of things, there's absolutely a civil rights component.

00:11:52.000 Number one, we have endless cases where parents have provided written notice to the hospital that they do not want the hepatitis B vaccine as part of their birthing program in writing, signed, and the hospital does it anyway.

00:12:06.000 We probably have about over 100 clients like that at the firm right now.

00:12:10.000 So my firm has over 100 folks.

00:12:13.000 About 50 of them do just vaccine-related work.

00:12:16.000 And one of the things we do is this type of these cases where actually we've started taking on these representations.

00:12:24.000 They're supported by a group called I Can the Informed Continent Action Network because they're not very lucrative.

00:12:28.000 So, but a nonprofit has decided they want to put a stop to this practice.

00:12:31.000 And so we've done those cases.

00:12:33.000 There's another component too.

00:12:34.000 We get lots of calls from parents who are in, they've just given birth, they're in the happiest moment of their lives, and they've decided they don't want the shot.

00:12:42.000 And the hospital is telling them if they don't get it, they're going to call CPS on them.

00:12:46.000 Yep.

00:12:46.000 We've had that happen a few times.

00:12:46.000 No kidding.

00:12:48.000 Is this in red states too?

00:12:49.000 I mean, is it all across the board?

00:12:51.000 Because you think about red versus blue states, but it's actually like a medical establishment that is very, very keen on this.

00:12:57.000 I will tell you, it's interesting.

00:12:58.000 I don't, it really comes down to whoever the attendant is in that moment.

00:13:02.000 Sometimes it's not even the hospital.

00:13:04.000 It's not even the state that matters.

00:13:06.000 It's the attendant.

00:13:07.000 Who is the attending physician in that hospital in that moment?

00:13:11.000 Are they in a good mood?

00:13:12.000 What's going on with them that day?

00:13:14.000 It really can come down to that.

00:13:16.000 Even the nurse.

00:13:17.000 It could be anybody that they get a bad feeling about the situation and then they can call for whatever reason.

00:13:21.000 Yeah, it just, it strikes me that I do not have a clear memory.

00:13:26.000 And now with babies two and three, so I've got three, three kids.

00:13:30.000 The second and the third, I remember being very much more like queued in.

00:13:33.000 And I was, I was aware of a lot more because I had been through it once before, but especially on that on our oldest, I can't remember even being given the option.

00:13:43.000 I can't remember at all.

00:13:45.000 Now, on the third one, I successfully delayed the Hep B like a day, though. 0.98

00:13:52.000 I mean, it was like, we don't need to do that right now.

00:13:55.000 And then they harped on us.

00:13:57.000 So what I'm going to throw it to Riley just really quick here because you are a mom. 1.00

00:14:02.000 You're really in touch with the Maha community.

00:14:05.000 Like, what are moms saying about the Hep B stuff?

00:14:09.000 It's honestly, it's 50-50.

00:14:11.000 A lot of moms are saying, I'm getting stuff from both sides.

00:14:14.000 I don't know.

00:14:15.000 You know, I have the things that I'm reading online are scary.

00:14:18.000 I don't know how to interpret this.

00:14:20.000 If you don't have a science background, you don't do your research on your own.

00:14:23.000 Even if you do research on your own, if you don't understand how to read and interpret a clinical study, you may not know what's right and what's wrong or what you're being told.

00:14:33.000 It's all over the place.

00:14:35.000 I know a lot of the issue is like with birthing plans.

00:14:39.000 I have a one-year-old.

00:14:41.000 So obviously I had my birthing plan.

00:14:43.000 Did it change by the time the baby was born?

00:14:45.000 But when I walked in, of course, that it happens.

00:14:49.000 I made sure that the hospital that I had was 100% agree with my birth plan that they would accommodate that no matter what.

00:15:00.000 But there are a lot of moms that are, they're scared.

00:15:02.000 They go in, they don't know what to expect.

00:15:03.000 If you've never had a baby, you don't know what to expect.

00:15:06.000 You're reading all this stuff online.

00:15:07.000 You're overwhelmed.

00:15:09.000 You're already stressed because you're about to have a baby, let alone going in and not knowing what you don't know because you don't know what you don't know.

00:15:17.000 One of the things was making sure that dad is always with baby because you're doing your own thing.

00:15:24.000 You're having the baby.

00:15:25.000 But if that doctor takes that baby out, there's a lot of parents that are concerned that my birth plan may be this, but I don't 100% trust the establishment.

00:15:34.000 I don't 100% trust the doctors or the hospital that they're not going to give my kid something, even though I have it in writing and I've stated that I don't want this.

00:15:42.000 I never left my kids' side, not for a second.

00:15:44.000 My husband was with our baby from day one.

00:15:47.000 Never for a second because they make mistakes and they have their, like you said, that's the default, right?

00:15:52.000 The default is to do all everything.

00:15:54.000 And there's always nurse changes and shift changes.

00:15:56.000 And so you have to assume that they just by default will do the things that are on their checklist.

00:16:02.000 So I agree fully.

00:16:03.000 So, yeah, I mean, do you get that a lot?

00:16:05.000 Have you been litigating cases like that where hospitals just defy a parent's birth plan?

00:16:10.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:16:11.000 We've settled them where hospitals have to pay the parents. 0.91

00:16:14.000 Absolutely.

00:16:15.000 We have, like I said, we have probably about a hundred clients literally right now as we sit here where my law firm is handling their cases right now.

00:16:24.000 So it happens all the time because, you know, and that's part of the issue with the routine recommendation from ACIP.

00:16:31.000 Because when it's viewed as routine, what does that mean?

00:16:34.000 That means that the medical community views it as everybody should get it.

00:16:38.000 And, you know, your right to inform consent sometimes just goes out the window, even apparently when you have it in writing and say so.

00:16:44.000 I just, for the audience's sake, ASIP stands for Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.

00:16:50.000 Okay, so it's a really powerful committee.

00:16:53.000 Yeah, it's within the CDC.

00:16:55.000 And again, RFK Jr., famously, now notoriously, whatever you want to look at it, removed the 17 sitting members of that and has been replacing them.

00:17:05.000 But you said before we came on the air, so I just want to catch our audience up, that he's actually, the people that have been appointed to this board are pretty, they're across the spectrum, ideologically, when it comes to this stuff.

00:17:17.000 Oh, absolutely.

00:17:18.000 If you watch an ASIP hearing, you will hear quite, you will hear a diversity of opinions.

00:17:22.000 Well, that's great, though, right?

00:17:24.000 Well, not everyone thinks that, though.

00:17:25.000 I mean, have you seen the tweets about him from Senator Cassidy?

00:17:30.000 About you?

00:17:31.000 Yeah.

00:17:31.000 I mean, they were saying that he shouldn't be there because Bill Cassidy from Louisiana, who famously voted to impeach President Trump.

00:17:37.000 Okay, continue.

00:17:38.000 I mean, there are many people that are saying that he shouldn't be allowed to be there because he sues and makes money off of vaccines, lawsuits.

00:17:45.000 And that doesn't make any sense to me as a physician.

00:17:47.000 It just makes no logical sense whatsoever.

00:17:49.000 All the vaccine companies are there.

00:17:51.000 They're always speaking.

00:17:52.000 I mean, everybody has some sort of conflict of interest.

00:17:55.000 And you want people that know about vaccines, that work on vaccines.

00:17:58.000 You want the companies to be there.

00:17:59.000 I mean, you want them to talk.

00:18:00.000 You want to be able to grill them.

00:18:01.000 So why should you not be able to have somebody who is thinking in different ways?

00:18:05.000 It's absurd to say that that's a conflict of interest that couldn't be there.

00:18:08.000 Well, did you see my response to Sean?

00:18:09.000 I did cover it.

00:18:10.000 It was in CNN.

00:18:12.000 They covered the exchange, actually.

00:18:14.000 For the first time.

00:18:15.000 Wait, so are you on ASIP?

00:18:16.000 Are you one of them?

00:18:17.000 No, I spoke before.

00:18:18.000 Okay, that's what I thought.

00:18:19.000 And so I was invited to speak about the development of the childhood schedule.

00:18:23.000 And Senator Cassidy tweeted out that I'm, you know, something about how I shouldn't have been invited because I make my living is what he wrote, suing vaccine makers.

00:18:35.000 So I tweeted back and I said, it's ironic you write that because actually I can't make my living suing vaccine makers because they have immunity.

00:18:44.000 Childhood vaccines are the only product in America, literally the only one.

00:18:48.000 As four of us sitting here in this room, look around this room.

00:18:51.000 We're surrounded by thousands of manufactured products.

00:18:53.000 On your way into this room, okay, for every one of them, you could sue the company on the basis that had they made that product safer, you or your child would not have died or gotten seriously injured.

00:19:04.000 Okay.

00:19:04.000 So if for extra penny they could have made the gas tank in your car explode, you could sue them because they could have made it safer.

00:19:10.000 If this wall material could have been made safer so it didn't cause you cancer, you could sue them.

00:19:15.000 The only product you can't sue for are vaccines since 1986 because of something called the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act 1986.

00:19:22.000 So when Senator Cassidy says, I make my living suing vaccine makers, it's pretty ironic because it's Congress.

00:19:28.000 We've got it up.

00:19:29.000 It's Congress that, can you find my response?

00:19:31.000 It's Congress that eliminated that right in 1986 precisely because of how much harm those vaccines were causing.

00:19:41.000 Yeah, I mean, I have like a lot of questions.

00:19:45.000 So let's get so Before we move on, actually, I just want to make sure we're putting a pin in this whole idea of the HEP B.

00:19:55.000 So it's no longer universally recommended.

00:19:59.000 What's that?

00:20:00.000 Only at birth.

00:20:01.000 At birth.

00:20:02.000 Okay, so that's the question.

00:20:04.000 So the follow-up questions are: do you get it on day one?

00:20:06.000 Do you get it on 20 days after?

00:20:08.000 Do you get a month after?

00:20:09.000 You get it two months after.

00:20:11.000 Is there something we're comfortable recommending?

00:20:14.000 Their recommendation now is two months or later, which generally is what kids were doing anyways.

00:20:18.000 If they didn't get the vaccine at birth, they would get it at two months, four months, and six months, or any time after that.

00:20:23.000 Okay, and generally speaking, that is much safer when it comes to fevers, encephalitis.

00:20:31.000 I mean, it's definitely safer if you get a fever that you're older, but whether that makes the vaccine safer or not, that's debatable.

00:20:37.000 So that's something that should be studied.

00:20:39.000 But we haven't studied those differences to see whether it is safer.

00:20:42.000 And the manufacturer's disclosure about encephalitis and cephalopathy don't distinguish between age.

00:20:47.000 And most of the safety research, I mean, the original safety research, which is really interesting and might get us a little off topic, but was four to five days of safety research, which is great.

00:20:55.000 Four to five days.

00:20:56.000 Yes, on the hepatitis vaccine.

00:20:58.000 So I want to go back to something you said, Doctor.

00:21:01.000 You said you don't mandate for any of your clients, you give them essentially informed consent.

00:21:07.000 You go back and forth.

00:21:08.000 So question might be: don't vaccines at some point lose their broader appeal or their broader, I guess, upside if we don't have universal vaccination of some of these diseases.

00:21:21.000 You have to go vaccine by vaccine on each of these because for many of the vaccines, and this is something that you don't realize unless you really look into it or think about it, is that most of them don't protect the community.

00:21:32.000 They just protect you.

00:21:33.000 So many of the diseases don't have this community immunity that you're talking about.

00:21:38.000 Some of them do.

00:21:39.000 I mean, the measles vaccine, certainly.

00:21:42.000 Yeah, we can talk about that.

00:21:43.000 But there are some more than others, but the polio vaccine protects you.

00:21:46.000 Whooping vaccine protects you.

00:21:48.000 Many of the vaccines just protect you.

00:21:49.000 So it's not really about the community immunity, like you're mentioning.

00:21:53.000 So it depends.

00:21:53.000 Each one is a little bit different.

00:21:55.000 Anything you want to say about Hep B that we've missed?

00:21:59.000 Because there's a whole bunch of other topics we can get into.

00:22:01.000 But I want to make sure.

00:22:05.000 You know, there's so much to say.

00:22:08.000 Okay, what are we missing?

00:22:10.000 I mean, I'll just build on what the doctor said, which is the clinical trial relied upon to license.

00:22:16.000 There are two standalone hepatitis B vaccines.

00:22:19.000 One was licensed in 86.1 and 89, Recommend Vacc HB, Index B. Recommend Vax HB was licensed based on a clinical trial, and this is what the doctor was talking about.

00:22:28.000 When a clinical trial that monitored children for five days for safety after injection.

00:22:32.000 That's it.

00:22:33.000 There were 147 kids in no control group.

00:22:33.000 Five days.

00:22:36.000 That was the whole trial.

00:22:37.000 That's it.

00:22:38.000 Okay.

00:22:39.000 Nothing else.

00:22:39.000 That is useless to determine the safety of the product.

00:22:42.000 Who regulates these control groups in these, you know, because there's a lot of this going on right now.

00:22:47.000 Alex Berenson has been talking about the COVID shots and the clinical trials that were done for that.

00:22:55.000 And he's basically of the position that these companies are very good at rigging.

00:23:02.000 He didn't use that word, but essentially they're very good at these.

00:23:04.000 They're good at making money.

00:23:05.000 Well, and they're good at these control groups or these clinical trials to make sure they get the outcome they want.

00:23:10.000 Yes.

00:23:12.000 For most drugs, okay, they normally have multi-year placebo-control trials.

00:23:18.000 Why?

00:23:19.000 Because they're liable for the injuries from drug products after they go to market.

00:23:22.000 So they want to make sure they don't lose money.

00:23:24.000 And that's what they're in business for.

00:23:26.000 These companies with business make money.

00:23:27.000 You have a retirement account.

00:23:28.000 You got a 401k.

00:23:30.000 You want the companies in your portfolio to make money.

00:23:32.000 So does Wall Street.

00:23:33.000 So does everybody that has stock, right?

00:23:35.000 So do the CO, so does the board members.

00:23:37.000 In fact, you fire a company, you take them out of your portfolio if they weren't making money, right?

00:23:40.000 Correct.

00:23:40.000 So that's how they make their decisions.

00:23:42.000 Now, normally, the interest to make money is aligned with safety.

00:23:45.000 Because if you put out a product that's not safe, you lose money.

00:23:48.000 And so, but with vaccines, it's the only one that, as I noted, has that immunity I talked about earlier.

00:23:54.000 So, the financial entrance has been inverted, okay?

00:23:58.000 Which is why for vaccine trials, you will often see days or weeks of safety review, never a placebo control for any of the routine-injected vaccines, and they're often underpowered, meaning not enough kids.

00:24:08.000 So, to answer, it was a long way to answer your question.

00:24:10.000 But to answer your question, FDA regulates these trials, okay, but it's the companies that conduct them.

00:24:18.000 Why would the FDA accept the trial that short?

00:24:21.000 That's because there's a drug division, there's a vaccine division, and if you've interacted with the vaccine division, they are believers in these products.

00:24:32.000 Even during RFK's tenure so far, has it changed?

00:24:36.000 Is there more skepticism?

00:24:38.000 Vinay Prasad, who is the head of CEBR, which has the vaccine division at the FDA, you saw that memo he released that was leaked where he talked about the 10 kids dying.

00:24:48.000 I don't know if you've read it.

00:24:50.000 I have not read it, but he is trying to reform.

00:24:52.000 He is facing mass dissent and opposition.

00:24:57.000 Look, if you sat in FDA for the last few decades, anybody in there, and you licensed these vaccines based on these kinds of clinical trials that in no way could have affirmed safety, you must have incredible cognitive dissonance when faced with those without reality.

00:25:14.000 Yeah, I think assume safety.

00:25:16.000 And can I just say that I think that your question, again, it's so reasonable.

00:25:21.000 And my question is why they would allow that.

00:25:24.000 Like, that doesn't make sense.

00:25:25.000 And that's when you have sued them and sued for FOIA request to find out if there were more information.

00:25:30.000 Because it doesn't make sense that we would give a vaccine to a newborn unless we had the very best safety data possible.

00:25:39.000 That doesn't make you anti-vex.

00:25:40.000 It just means if you're going to put a new vaccine on the schedule, if you're going to give a new vaccine to my baby, I want to know that it's been studied in thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of kids against an inert placebo, followed forward and looked at to see what the safety profile is.

00:25:54.000 How is that anti-anything?

00:25:55.000 It doesn't mean that they shouldn't get it, but we should be sure that it's safe before you give to a healthy newborn.

00:26:01.000 It's not the same thing as giving to somebody who's sick.

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00:27:05.000 Yeah, so let me just tell you how I'm hearing this as the layman in this conversation, even more so than Riley.

00:27:12.000 I'm hearing, unless you are in a very, you know, high-risk group, it doesn't sound to me like this is something that I would be inclined or rushing to give my child at least immediately.

00:27:25.000 Maybe you could talk about two months, six months, first year, maybe.

00:27:30.000 But that's basically where I'm landing on this, hearing the intel.

00:27:34.000 Now, I just want to make sure that everybody knows we invited Dr. Paul Offutt to this discussion, and Riley reached out kindly, and it was, I would say, not a welcome invite.

00:27:49.000 Was concerned that we were going to be confusing the audience and maybe causing more vaccine hesitancy or anti-vax sentiment.

00:27:58.000 But we did want to get his perspective, and he is, I would say, much more of an adherent to the medical establishment's view.

00:28:11.000 I think that's safe to say, the wider medical establishment's view about vaccine efficacy and the need for vaccine.

00:28:16.000 So, we did want him to be on this conversation.

00:28:19.000 But regardless, I don't think you would not describe yourself as anti-vax, would you?

00:28:24.000 I mean, look, all I can use is a dictionary for the use of words, okay?

00:28:29.000 Sure.

00:28:29.000 And under Webster's dictionary, it defines anti-vax as somebody who opposes mandating one or more vaccines or receiving one or more.

00:28:36.000 So, under that definition, most of the country is anti-vax because a majority oppose mandating COVID vaccine, flu shots, and some of the other ones and so forth.

00:28:44.000 So, you know, I mean, I guess it matters what definition you're using, whether or not somebody's anti-vax.

00:28:50.000 You oppose my COVID vaccine mandate?

00:28:51.000 Yes.

00:28:52.000 Then you're anti-vax, according to Merriam-Webster.

00:28:54.000 Totally.

00:28:54.000 So there you go.

00:28:55.000 So, but my point, I think the layperson would think of it as, you know, you're not against all vaccines.

00:28:55.000 All right.

00:29:03.000 I'm not for or against any product.

00:29:05.000 They're just a product.

00:29:06.000 Okay.

00:29:07.000 I'm not pro or anti-car.

00:29:10.000 I don't think cars are good or bad.

00:29:12.000 I don't think this microphone is personally.

00:29:12.000 They're just cars.

00:29:14.000 I'm not pro or anti-I personally think cars are good.

00:29:17.000 But I do acknowledge there's a reason.

00:29:19.000 Do you think cars that blow up are good?

00:29:20.000 No.

00:29:21.000 So those are bad.

00:29:22.000 Those are bad.

00:29:22.000 So some are good, some are bad.

00:29:23.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:29:24.000 Okay, so but that's a risk.

00:29:26.000 No, I get what you're doing.

00:29:27.000 Yeah, I get what you're where you're doing with this.

00:29:29.000 I just think of them as products, honestly.

00:29:30.000 Right.

00:29:31.000 But products can have benefits.

00:29:33.000 Here.

00:29:33.000 And if you become convinced the benefit outweighs the cost, you would probably.

00:29:37.000 I'll answer the heart of the question.

00:29:39.000 The heart of the question is this on hepatitis B.

00:29:39.000 Okay.

00:29:42.000 So if you're going to, for example, really think about hepatitis B and you're trying to decide whether to take it, here's the way I would do it.

00:29:47.000 Okay.

00:29:48.000 If a baby's born to a non-Hep B positive mother, I would say, okay, how many the needed number needed to treat, how many babies of non-hepatitis B vaccinated mothers do you need to inject, but to prevent one case of chronic hep B?

00:30:03.000 Okay?

00:30:04.000 That's where you start.

00:30:05.000 That's the benefit.

00:30:06.000 That's the number you need.

00:30:07.000 What is that number?

00:30:08.000 Depending on where you look, some say millions, some say hundreds of thousands.

00:30:11.000 Okay.

00:30:12.000 Benefit.

00:30:13.000 Now, what's the risk?

00:30:15.000 How many out of because that's rare?

00:30:17.000 Yeah, so say the number's a million.

00:30:20.000 How many are then getting fevers or getting some other or getting?

00:30:25.000 That's the right question.

00:30:26.000 That's the question that we need answered.

00:30:28.000 Well, there are data.

00:30:32.000 There are data that reflect that the risk in that instance might be greater than the benefit.

00:30:40.000 Now, I don't make medical decisions for other.

00:30:42.000 I mean, everybody should make their own choices.

00:30:44.000 At the end of the day, really, my goal is just to make sure everybody has the right and the ability to do that as a civil individual rights, you know, as an attorney.

00:30:51.000 That's my goal.

00:30:53.000 Not to do that mathematical.

00:30:54.000 But when you do do that, when you do do those numbers, you know, that's the way you should go about it.

00:30:59.000 Yeah, and I do find it interesting.

00:31:01.000 And I think this is a question that a lot of people have, is why this forceful sort of, you know, this mandate culture when it comes to vaccines.

00:31:12.000 And I think Blake on our team, who tends to be a little contrarian in almost everything, but it is well made, this sort of community immunity idea that we want to get these diseases completely out of the population, whether that's polio, which is probably the most famous example, smallpox.

00:31:28.000 We talked about before we started rolling here.

00:31:31.000 And you had some nuance with smallpox, but polio, for example, right?

00:31:35.000 We eradicated polio, essentially.

00:31:38.000 Maybe I'm wrong on that currently, but that was that was always what it was sold to us.

00:31:41.000 You know, we started to vaccinate for polio and we got it out of the community.

00:31:46.000 You're saying that is only a consideration on certain illnesses, maybe.

00:31:51.000 Is that what you're the community immunity?

00:31:54.000 So even for polio, the original polio, the oral polio, that does protect other people in theory.

00:31:59.000 The one that we use today, they inactivated doesn't.

00:32:01.000 It just protects you.

00:32:02.000 The oral polio was giving more people polio than actual polio that we had.

00:32:06.000 So that's why they stopped using it because you can't shed it.

00:32:11.000 What about measles?

00:32:12.000 So measles is a different case.

00:32:13.000 I think measles is probably the most difficult of the vaccines in terms of that kind of discussion because we know that measles is extremely contagious and kids can get sick.

00:32:21.000 And we also know that vaccine works very well.

00:32:23.000 And you do get some community immunity if you vaccinate enough people.

00:32:27.000 So I think that of all the diseases, measles is probably the one where that discussion makes the most sense.

00:32:32.000 Can I ask a question? 0.92

00:32:32.000 Like, I don't know which questions are dumb here or not. 0.92

00:32:35.000 You guys are literally in the thick of these discussions.

00:32:39.000 And so I feel, you know, please forgive my insecurity about some of this question, but I have to believe if I'm having some of these questions that like our audience is having the same ones.

00:32:48.000 So my mom did like a measles party when she was like where they literally tried to just get everybody sick so that they would have the immunity and they'd get it done with. 0.99

00:32:59.000 And I remember doing chickenpox.

00:33:00.000 It was like, there was no chickenpox vaccine when I was a kid.

00:33:04.000 So these kind of things.

00:33:06.000 So how dangerous is measles are the measles?

00:33:11.000 And do you think that the, I mean, again, I don't want to put you in a position because I know you're sort of open-handed.

00:33:19.000 Like, do you recommend them for people?

00:33:21.000 The vaccine, do you, or do you think this old way of doing things was actually better in some ways?

00:33:26.000 Like, is it a natural, naturally gained immunity better than a vaccine immunity?

00:33:31.000 General questions.

00:33:32.000 No, no, your questions are great.

00:33:33.000 You should understand that these are the questions we get, or certainly I get every single day.

00:33:37.000 So they are excellent questions.

00:33:39.000 In terms of measles, it is really important to understand the epidemiology of measles from way back in the day.

00:33:47.000 People were not afraid of measles a long time ago.

00:33:50.000 The problem with measles, the concern around measles, is that it's very contagious.

00:33:54.000 It's one of the most contagious diseases that we have.

00:33:56.000 So if nobody is vaccinated, it's going to go through the community.

00:33:59.000 Everybody's going to get it.

00:34:00.000 Most people in a room, like nine out of ten people, are going to get measles.

00:34:03.000 So a few kids will get really sick.

00:34:06.000 And that's something to understand.

00:34:07.000 Back before they were vaccinated.

00:34:08.000 Some will die.

00:34:09.000 Yes, some will die.

00:34:10.000 So before we get data on that, there were about three to five hundred deaths a year back before measles.

00:34:16.000 So there are very, very few deaths, but not zero.

00:34:19.000 And the biggest concern for measles is pneumonia.

00:34:21.000 A lot of kids do go to the hospital.

00:34:23.000 There is about a one in 20 risk for pneumonia and for serious complications.

00:34:27.000 So obviously, we don't want any kid to go to the hospital.

00:34:29.000 We don't want any kid to die.

00:34:30.000 These are things that are possible.

00:34:32.000 So that's something that people do need to understand.

00:34:34.000 And the vaccine, if you get both of them, it's about 97% effective.

00:34:38.000 So it's pretty good effectiveness.

00:34:40.000 The question then becomes, okay, at what cost?

00:34:42.000 Yeah, so I'm going to throw that to the attorney here.

00:34:46.000 So because are you litigating now or have measles cases?

00:34:51.000 MMR vaccine cases?

00:34:52.000 Sure.

00:34:53.000 So I can give you a sense of the different.

00:34:53.000 Okay.

00:34:55.000 I mean, to answer your initial question, which from, and I will build upon what was just said with regards to getting measles versus getting the vaccine.

00:35:06.000 So Joel's correct.

00:35:08.000 There were about 300 to 500 deaths a year leading up to 1963 when the first measles vaccine was introduced.

00:35:14.000 63.

00:35:14.000 63, first measles vaccine ever in the United States.

00:35:18.000 Between 1900 and 1963, measles mortality in the United States declined by over 98%.

00:35:23.000 Climbed.

00:35:24.000 Declined.

00:35:25.000 Interesting.

00:35:26.000 Declined.

00:35:27.000 So you had over a 98% decline in mortality from measles in the United States to 1900-1963.

00:35:33.000 That's just the CDC mortality data.

00:35:35.000 You know what didn't cause that decline in mortality?

00:35:38.000 Measles vaccine.

00:35:39.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:35:39.000 It didn't exist.

00:35:40.000 I know.

00:35:40.000 It didn't exist.

00:35:41.000 So sometimes people take some time.

00:35:43.000 Okay.

00:35:43.000 Tracking.

00:35:44.000 So what did cause it?

00:35:46.000 We could probably ascribe it to public health measures even.

00:35:50.000 Meaning public health authorities probably could take credit for a lot of it.

00:35:54.000 They never do.

00:35:55.000 They take other than appointing to vaccines, but it's probably better sanitations, better clean water, better nutrition.

00:36:01.000 Go down the list, okay?

00:36:03.000 Well, when they get sick, they probably had more advanced care, antibiotics, all the things.

00:36:07.000 Better acute care, absolutely, right?

00:36:09.000 Because of the secondary effects.

00:36:11.000 Now, measles vaccine can prevent transmission.

00:36:15.000 So anybody who's got the vaccine is less likely to get clinical measles, and hence they're less likely to get harm from measles.

00:36:24.000 But that's not the end of the story, in my opinion, for the following reasons.

00:36:27.000 First of all, if we didn't vaccinate, would that mortality curve continue to decline?

00:36:32.000 Mortality from all of these infectious diseases were declining, other than polio, was going up.

00:36:35.000 It was the only one since the 1900 for the most part.

00:36:38.000 Okay.

00:36:39.000 And so would mortality have continued to decline.

00:36:40.000 That's first of all.

00:36:41.000 So can we ascribe all of that reduction in mortality to measles?

00:36:44.000 Remember, measles mortality was going down as the population was climbing from 1900.

00:36:50.000 Okay?

00:36:50.000 So even as population continued to climb, mortality likely would have continued going down.

00:36:56.000 But I assume some of the reduction of mortality can be ascribed to the vaccine.

00:37:00.000 Fine.

00:37:01.000 But let me show you the flip side.

00:37:03.000 Those that have had measles, studies have shown, have far less deaths from cardiovascular disease, cancers, and other issues.

00:37:09.000 A prospective 100,000-person study in Japan, meaning forward-looking for 22 years, that tracked 100,000 people in Japan for 22 years, found, so this was a, you know, this was a very serious study by an institution, by an institution there, and, you know, by the government of Japan and major university there.

00:37:29.000 And what it found is that those that had had measles and mumps had a naturally.

00:37:34.000 Naturally.

00:37:35.000 Naturally got it.

00:37:36.000 Naturally got it compared to those who didn't had a 20% statistically significant decline in mortality from cardiovascular disease.

00:37:45.000 So this is a point that I've heard from a very prominent person.

00:37:49.000 I was just talking to them recently.

00:37:51.000 And their whole, this person would proudly describe themselves as anti-vax, like very proud.

00:37:58.000 And the rationale for this person was that when you get diseases naturally and your body overcomes them, that you have a stronger immunity for everything.

00:38:08.000 And this person's perspective on it, and I'll probably throw it to you.

00:38:13.000 Either of you can answer this actually, was that it wasn't just cardiovascular.

00:38:17.000 It wasn't just against that same disease in the future.

00:38:20.000 It was against things like cancer.

00:38:21.000 This was this person's perspective.

00:38:22.000 Well, that's the study show.

00:38:24.000 Okay, so I'm not speaking out of turn here.

00:38:26.000 This was not completely.

00:38:27.000 Is there, so for example, COVID.

00:38:29.000 Yes.

00:38:30.000 If you got a natural immunity, you got COVID and then you overcame it.

00:38:34.000 It didn't mean that you weren't going to get it in the future, but perhaps your body, I mean, I got the OG COVID in 2020, and I think I got it one more time.

00:38:42.000 And the first time was rough.

00:38:44.000 Second time was like a piece of cake, but also the virus is getting weaker.

00:38:48.000 So I don't really know what to make of that.

00:38:50.000 But I will say that their perspective on it was that you should let your body fight these things.

00:38:54.000 Stop injecting our kids with all this stuff like chickenpox vaccine and measles vaccine.

00:38:58.000 Let them get over it.

00:38:59.000 That's this person's perspective.

00:39:01.000 I just, I'm throwing it out there because I bet a lot of people have heard this.

00:39:04.000 Yeah, I mean, there are different perspectives on it.

00:39:05.000 I think, you know, one of the main things to consider, the point of a vaccine theoretically would be to protect you from getting the disease, to protect you from dying or getting very sick from a disease.

00:39:14.000 So I think we have to keep that in mind because the only people that survive are the ones that can have this protection.

00:39:20.000 So that's the counter argument.

00:39:22.000 You have to survive the disease to have some sort of potential other benefits.

00:39:26.000 Also, with measles, there is immune amnesia.

00:39:28.000 That's one of the things that is right.

00:39:30.000 It like wipes your immunity memory.

00:39:35.000 I'll disagree with that.

00:39:37.000 I don't think those studies are.

00:39:38.000 But that is one of the things that is certainly pointed to in the literature as something that people talk to.

00:39:43.000 So it's debated whether it could be beneficial or not.

00:39:46.000 But those are, again, the right questions, right?

00:39:48.000 Those are the questions where we should be looking at this.

00:39:49.000 We shouldn't be hearing, oh, there might be some sort of protective benefits and saying, ah, that's crazy.

00:39:54.000 We need to understand those things.

00:39:56.000 We need to look at the whole picture and weigh those things out to see what the long-term benefits.

00:40:01.000 We don't necessarily understand everything about this world and about diseases and what potential benefits there might be.

00:40:07.000 It is interesting, though, right?

00:40:08.000 If you go back to there's that famous episode of the Brady Bunch where they all just get measles and it's like a laugh track, you know, and it's just like culturally, we have gone very far from like, oh, the housekeeper gets measles and everybody laughs about it and she's, you know, she's got red bumps or whatever.

00:40:28.000 To now we're like, kids are going to die.

00:40:30.000 RFK is, and it sounds like it's true. 1.00

00:40:33.000 300 to 500 a year.

00:40:34.000 I mean, I don't want to make light of that, but it is like a weird cultural difference.

00:40:40.000 How many kids die of chickenpox?

00:40:41.000 Very few, right?

00:40:42.000 So that's again.

00:40:42.000 What about before the vaccine?

00:40:43.000 They estimated about 100 something a year.

00:40:45.000 Yeah, so it's very few.

00:40:46.000 I mean, I don't even remember being worried about that.

00:40:49.000 Now, there was the Samoa case, though, right?

00:40:51.000 That RFK has gotten into some hot water with or get blamed for organizations.

00:40:56.000 Samoa is not the United States. 0.54

00:40:58.000 Okay, so you think that that isn't more that because there's like a dozen kids died or something like that in the Samoa case?

00:41:04.000 No, it was more than that.

00:41:05.000 Was it?

00:41:06.000 Okay, so however many.

00:41:07.000 Dozens, dozens of kids.

00:41:08.000 Something about Samoa doesn't make a lot of sense because one in 450,000 Americans died of measles before there was a vaccine.

00:41:14.000 It came out to of those infected, about one in 10,000.

00:41:17.000 The numbers in Samoa just don't match any data from historically.

00:41:22.000 I don't know exactly what happened there, but it doesn't match any of the actual data, real-world data that exists in the United States from any time period.

00:41:31.000 That's fascinating.

00:41:33.000 You had a thought on this?

00:41:37.000 No, it's fine.

00:41:39.000 Well, I did, but I guess I do.

00:41:42.000 As far as how often is the data that is being used for vaccines, how often are the studies done in another country and not in the U.S.?

00:41:55.000 Or are they all in the U.S.? 0.97

00:41:57.000 They're not all in the U.S. 1.00

00:41:59.000 The FDA will accept foreign studies.

00:42:01.000 Are you talking, well, are you talking about clinical trials to license or are you talking about post-licensure safety studies?

00:42:06.000 Post-licensure safety studies happen.

00:42:09.000 Post-licensure.

00:42:10.000 Oh, I'm so sorry.

00:42:11.000 Is that what you're saying?

00:42:12.000 Yeah, post-licensure.

00:42:13.000 After the vaccine is licensed, they often do studies outside of the U.S., actually.

00:42:18.000 Denmark's a place they often do a lot of them, like the recent aluminum study.

00:42:22.000 And why is that?

00:42:24.000 Well, be honest.

00:42:28.000 Be honest.

00:42:29.000 Well, okay, so they often do them in Denmark.

00:42:32.000 They say the reason they I'll tell you what they say, and I'll tell you my personal view.

00:42:37.000 So they say they do them in Denmark because Denmark has a centralized medical care system with robust tracking of vaccination and other metrics.

00:42:46.000 And so they say they can do these studies there more readily on vaccines and vaccine safety.

00:42:54.000 I would say the other side of it is they only have a tiny vaccine schedule compared to the U.S.

00:43:01.000 So there's nine vaccines that are not on their schedule that are on the U.S. schedule.

00:43:06.000 So kind of a better place to study vaccine safety when you're giving nine less, I'm not talking shots.

00:43:12.000 I'm talking nine less different vaccines.

00:43:13.000 I could tell you the whole Danish schedule super easy.

00:43:16.000 At 3, 5, and 12 months, you get one hexavalent, which is basically DTP HIB, IPV, and one other.

00:43:27.000 I'm trying to do it fast.

00:43:28.000 Two doses of MMR, D-Tap again at five years, and then HPV.

00:43:31.000 That's it.

00:43:31.000 That's the whole schedule.

00:43:32.000 That's nothing compared to the U.S.

00:43:34.000 But if you're correlating that to kids here in the U.S., that is not accurate.

00:43:40.000 It's not accurate, but that's what they, like, you saw that recent aluminum study they came out with that said aluminum adjuvants are safe and they studied them in Denmark.

00:43:47.000 Did you, I don't know if you said that.

00:43:49.000 It was all over the news.

00:43:50.000 It was used as a punch point against Bobby, against ours.

00:43:53.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:43:53.000 I mean, but it's the problem is they excluded any kids that got more than a certain amount of aluminum adjuvant.

00:44:00.000 But the problem is that every single kid in America gets that amount if they study, if they follow the CDC schedules.

00:44:06.000 And they didn't have an unvaccinated group, which had one initially, right?

00:44:12.000 And then they merged it.

00:44:14.000 They merged it in a majority.

00:44:15.000 So this is one of the ingredients of a lot of vaccines, right?

00:44:20.000 So American kids presumably would get much, much more of this.

00:44:25.000 Far more.

00:44:26.000 Right.

00:44:26.000 Okay.

00:44:27.000 And it.

00:44:27.000 Multiple times.

00:44:28.000 Okay.

00:44:29.000 So you said the so maybe we come back to that, but you said the stated reason is that Denmark has the centralized medical system.

00:44:37.000 They track everything.

00:44:38.000 It's really organized.

00:44:39.000 What's your opinion on why they do it there?

00:44:41.000 Oh, I thought I was transparent about my opinion.

00:44:45.000 Okay, well, I could read between the lines.

00:44:49.000 Which is that there are just so much fewer vaccines given.

00:44:53.000 Okay, so it doesn't trigger the same yet yet.

00:44:55.000 You know what percent of kids get Hep B vaccine in Denmark by 18 years of age?

00:45:00.000 Basically zero.

00:45:01.000 0.1.

00:45:02.000 They don't have Hep B on their schedule.

00:45:04.000 You can't even get your kid a Hep B vaccine in Denmark if your mother is not Hep B positive or you're not high risk.

00:45:10.000 My understanding is you can't even get it.

00:45:12.000 So you have 0.01% of kids have Hep B vaccine.

00:45:17.000 Do you know what the Hep B rate amongst kids in Denmark versus the U.S. is?

00:45:21.000 Effectively the same.

00:45:23.000 So that's Hep B.

00:45:25.000 And now you have, we've talked a lot about this.

00:45:29.000 And I think what Children's Defense Fund has made a big thing about this over the years is how I learned about it is the 1980s schedule versus our current vaccine schedule.

00:45:43.000 And you are talking about Denmark.

00:45:45.000 Is there an industrialized country that you look to and say they basically do the childhood vaccine schedule in a way that you look up to, that you see as the gold standard?

00:45:55.000 I don't know.

00:45:56.000 I mean, there are other places that have better health overall.

00:45:59.000 So I think we can look at their overall health, but I don't know that you can always compare it exactly to America.

00:46:03.000 So I think it's tough.

00:46:04.000 I mean, that's literally what Trump just came out and said that he wants to do.

00:46:08.000 He wants to compare to other nations, look at the differences, and have these discussions.

00:46:12.000 But you would have to really do a deep dive into that.

00:46:14.000 And I'm not sure that anyone's ever truly done that before.

00:46:18.000 Maybe I'm wrong.

00:46:20.000 Mr. Siri.

00:46:22.000 Bunch of phones by the way when you say his last name.

00:46:25.000 I think you should just treat vaccines like a product, which is you want to get them, get them.

00:46:29.000 It's freedom.

00:46:29.000 That's America.

00:46:30.000 I'll support anybody's right to get as many vaccines as they want and wear as many masks they want.

00:46:34.000 I mean it.

00:46:36.000 But I don't think the government should be in the business of basically promoting vaccines.

00:46:41.000 So I think that schedules are problematic to begin with.

00:46:44.000 Okay.

00:46:45.000 Okay.

00:46:45.000 They're problematic.

00:46:46.000 I get that.

00:46:46.000 I get your perspective on this.

00:46:48.000 Just define it then between 19, let's say, 85 to 2025.

00:46:54.000 How much more vaccines are we getting?

00:46:56.000 I guess we have a graphic of it here.

00:46:58.000 Yeah.

00:46:59.000 So on your screen, that's the current schedule.

00:47:01.000 So if you are following the current CDC schedule, including COVID vaccine, okay, because still a lot of kids are getting that.

00:47:10.000 Today, by the first birthday, a child will get 29 injections, including COVID.

00:47:16.000 So, take COVID off three or four doses in case maybe the mother gets not.

00:47:19.000 That includes neural, 29 injections.

00:47:21.000 In the 1986, when that law was passed, a child falling C-schedule will get three injections by their first birthday.

00:47:28.000 So, you've gone three to 25, excluding COVID, 29, including COVID.

00:47:33.000 Okay, three to 25 or 29.

00:47:35.000 That is a massive difference.

00:47:36.000 And every one of those products was except for one, was developed and licensed by a company, knowing they would virtually never have to pay for the kids that they kill or injure with that product.

00:47:48.000 What's the one?

00:47:50.000 MMR.

00:47:51.000 Okay, so let's get into MMR.

00:47:53.000 Okay.

00:47:54.000 MMR was the focus of a lot of controversy, maybe rightly or wrongly, but you know, there were films that came out about this, how it used to be separated into individual shots.

00:48:09.000 Then it got grouped together, apparently, long time ago.

00:48:12.000 People are saying that they're making you get it too young.

00:48:16.000 These kids are getting too young.

00:48:18.000 It causes sort of a shock to the kid's system because of, I don't know, some sort of toxins or whatever.

00:48:26.000 What is the truth about MMR?

00:48:29.000 And by the way, it was one of the more ones that was linked most to autism, according to the people that prescribed to that theory, right?

00:48:38.000 So it was the most under siege, if you will, from that community.

00:48:43.000 I mean, I'm just, I mean, I'm trying to ask the question in a neutral way.

00:48:46.000 I'll be honest and say that, you know, our family, we tried to delay it as much as we could.

00:48:51.000 And I always wanted it in separate shots.

00:48:53.000 Let me start here.

00:48:54.000 So for me, when I was in training and I went to a great program, very Western, the only thing that I was ever taught about vaccines and when it comes to autism was it's been debunked.

00:49:05.000 We have tons of science on this.

00:49:06.000 The science is settled.

00:49:07.000 And that's really all that you're taught.

00:49:10.000 And so unless you go look into it yourself, you really don't know what the research is.

00:49:14.000 And I'm not being hyperbolic.

00:49:16.000 I would say the most shocking thing I've ever seen in my life is when you go look at the research that actually exists on vaccines and autism and you realize what is and isn't there.

00:49:25.000 When I was doing the research for my book, what I thought I was going to do, I was trying to write a balanced book as best as possible.

00:49:31.000 And I thought what I was going to find, because I'm in the integrative space, I'm aware of some of the research on maybe not always the best research, but there were studies out there that said, oh, maybe vaccines are related to autism, or there were people that have said that.

00:49:44.000 And so I thought what I was going to find was all this amazing research that said, here are the amazing studies, vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

00:49:52.000 We have tons of studies that show vaccines don't cause autism.

00:49:56.000 Here's what it is.

00:49:57.000 And also here are those other studies that people are talking about.

00:49:59.000 So maybe it's not totally settled, but here's the both sides.

00:50:03.000 When you actually go look, all of the research is only on MMR, thymaerosol, which is a mercury component that's not in vaccines anymore.

00:50:11.000 And that's really it.

00:50:13.000 And I could not believe it.

00:50:14.000 I had to go back.

00:50:15.000 I looked at it again.

00:50:16.000 I have a master's in epidemiology.

00:50:17.000 I've done health research.

00:50:18.000 I've done a literature review.

00:50:19.000 I couldn't believe it.

00:50:20.000 I read Paul Offit's book, Peter Hotez's book.

00:50:22.000 They literally separate it by that.

00:50:24.000 And so when you're talking about vaccines and autism, the reality is that question has never totally been asked and answered.

00:50:33.000 It's certainly not debunked, if anything.

00:50:35.000 There are some studies and some research that has come out, not always the best research in the best journals, but it's out there.

00:50:40.000 There are studies on MMR.

00:50:42.000 But even those studies are epidemiologic studies, they're retrospective, so backwards in time.

00:50:47.000 And they're looking at MMR versus no MMR in the setting of kids who got their other vaccines.

00:50:52.000 That's not the question that parents have.

00:50:54.000 The question that parents have is, if my kid is unvaccinated, do they have a lower risk of autism than if I get them vaccinated?

00:51:01.000 MMR is the only one that we do have some research.

00:51:03.000 So if you were to take the mainstream research, you could say, well, based on what we have, the MMR doesn't seem to increase their risk.

00:51:10.000 But that's not the question.

00:51:12.000 I think it's about all vaccines, and I think that it's— Yeah, sorry.

00:51:16.000 Go ahead.

00:51:16.000 No, I was just saying, I think that's where we're talking about what the CDC changed recently on their website.

00:51:22.000 They basically went back to say, it's not been debunked.

00:51:25.000 It's not settled.

00:51:26.000 We need to do this research.

00:51:27.000 So let's.

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00:52:38.000 On November 20th of this year, 2025, the CDC wording changed regarding vaccines and autism.

00:52:45.000 So we have this here.

00:52:46.000 They added this asterisk here.

00:52:48.000 It says, pursuant to the data, it says vaccines do not cause autism, but with an asterisk.

00:52:52.000 So that's a pretty big deal.

00:52:53.000 And then they added that line in yellow.

00:52:55.000 Vaccines do not cause autism is not an evidence-based claim.

00:53:00.000 This is a big old shot across the bow to the medical establishment on this issue.

00:53:07.000 And I'm sure there is massive amounts of debate within your guys' communities, the medical community and the legal community on this topic, because this is kind of what I guess, you know, some people feared would happen with an RFK, HHS, right?

00:53:25.000 Why did they make this change?

00:53:27.000 Do you support it?

00:53:29.000 Do you just have sort of a different perspective on it altogether?

00:53:33.000 What's your take on it?

00:53:34.000 You mean they were scared they would tell the truth?

00:53:36.000 Ah, okay.

00:53:37.000 See, that's what I'm trying to dig.

00:53:39.000 Look, here, I'll give you, so on the autism question, Joel's exactly right. 0.99

00:53:45.000 They have not ruled out that vaccines do not cause autism in any way.

00:53:49.000 And I'll tell you why.

00:53:50.000 First of all, the very first time that the question of whether vaccines and autism should be studied was in the 1986 Act, that federal law.

00:53:58.000 Congress specifically told HHS, look at whether pertussis vaccine causes autism.

00:54:05.000 It was one of only 11 conditions they asked the HHS to look into, HHS being the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

00:54:13.000 That's the department in which CDC, FDA and AH, all health agents are located.

00:54:16.000 That's what Bobby's running right now.

00:54:18.000 Okay.

00:54:19.000 So it was nothing to do with MMR initially.

00:54:22.000 It had to do with pertussis vaccine.

00:54:23.000 Okay.

00:54:24.000 So that's where it started.

00:54:25.000 Paul Wakefield thing didn't come up until the late 90s.

00:54:28.000 I mean, that was way, way later.

00:54:30.000 HHS commissioned the Institute of Medicine to look at this question of whether or not pertussis vaccine is connected to autism.

00:54:36.000 And you know what they published a report in 1991 and they said, we can't find any study.

00:54:39.000 Zero, none.

00:54:41.000 You never looked at it.

00:54:42.000 Again, they were commissioned by the CDC, the Institute of Medicine, and HERSA, which is an agency in HHS that fights vaccine injury claims.

00:54:51.000 Again, to study whether, is there any science to show pertussis vaccines don't cause autism?

00:54:55.000 And again, they could not find any study to support that question.

00:54:59.000 When IOM published its report in 2012, they found one study.

00:55:03.000 They found one study that showed actually there was an association, but they threw it out because it said it didn't have an unvaccinated group and it was based on their data.

00:55:12.000 So they threw out the study.

00:55:14.000 So we're at 2012.

00:55:14.000 Okay?

00:55:18.000 On behalf of ICANN, that nonprofit I mentioned earlier, I sued the CDC for the studies that rely upon to support that the vaccines given in the first six months of life, five different vaccines, three shots each, HEPI, HIB, DTAP, IPV, and PCV.

00:55:39.000 So each of those are given three injections each, 15 injections.

00:55:42.000 Why?

00:55:43.000 When you look at parental surveys, 40 to 70% of parents still blame vaccines as causing their child's autism.

00:55:49.000 And what vaccines do they point to?

00:55:51.000 They point to those vaccines in the first six months of life, and they point to MMR.

00:55:55.000 That's what they point to.

00:55:56.000 So if you're going to say vaccines don't cause autism, you better rule out those vaccines don't cause autism in the first six months of life because they can diagnose autism before they give the MMR, which doesn't get given until no earlier than 12 months of age.

00:56:08.000 Except for if you're traveling abroad, maybe they'll give it to you earlier, but almost never, okay?

00:56:12.000 So we said, CDC, give us the studies.

00:56:16.000 We FOIAed them, something called the Freedom Information Act.

00:56:19.000 We ended up suing them in federal court, Southern District of New York.

00:56:22.000 I didn't even go to Texas, okay?

00:56:23.000 I went to Southern District of New York, all right?

00:56:26.000 Not the friendliest territory.

00:56:28.000 And days before we had our initial conference, I got a call from the Department of Justice, and I got a list of studies from them.

00:56:35.000 20 studies.

00:56:37.000 Now, maybe the CDC thinks we can't read, I don't know.

00:56:40.000 But I read them and I called back the DOJ attorney and I said, hey, I read your list.

00:56:45.000 I said, are you sure your client, the CDC, wants to enter into a settlement saying these are the 20 studies you rely upon to claim that the vaccines given in the first six months don't cause autism?

00:56:59.000 I said, because 19 of these studies have nothing to do with any of those vaccines.

00:57:04.000 They're almost all MMR vaccine studies, which are irrelevant, right?

00:57:07.000 Because you're comparing basically kids who get 17 shots with 18 shots.

00:57:12.000 That's silly, right?

00:57:14.000 If you shoot 17 shots of whiskey and 18 shots of whiskey and you're drunk, that doesn't mean anything both ways.

00:57:20.000 And also, all the MMR studies have health user bias because the kids who get injured in the first six months from vaccines, they stop getting vaccinated.

00:57:29.000 They don't get MMR vaccine.

00:57:31.000 Throws off the studies.

00:57:32.000 Putting that aside.

00:57:34.000 And I said, the 20th one on your list is the 2012 IOM report I just told you about that said the Institute of Medicine itself said, we can't find any study showing DTAP does not cause autism and one that showed an association.

00:57:47.000 I said, so your whole list literally only has one study and it showed an association.

00:57:54.000 They went ahead, they signed it.

00:57:55.000 I signed it.

00:57:56.000 DOJ signed on behalf of the CDC.

00:57:58.000 I signed to have the ICANN.

00:57:59.000 Federal judge entered as a court order.

00:58:02.000 I mean, I don't know where else to turn, meaning that if you know, they were held with gun to their head in federal court and they don't have the study.

00:58:10.000 So the point is, so when that webpage is updated, yes, I completely agree.

00:58:14.000 That's correct.

00:58:15.000 We shouldn't be saying vaccines do not cause autism unless you have the studies to show it.

00:58:18.000 Because we don't know.

00:58:20.000 You don't have the studies, yeah.

00:58:21.000 So one of the things that's most interesting in the vaccine space when it comes to autism, and you can hear it when he deposes Dr. Edwards, which is one of the most interesting things you can listen to if you want to listen to vaccines and autism, is you realize that basically all doctors are saying that vaccines don't cause autism because it hasn't been proven to cause autism.

00:58:41.000 So it's this weird negative because it hasn't been studied.

00:58:45.000 So therefore, if it hasn't been found to cause or not cause autism, they can say, oh, it's not proven to cause autism.

00:58:50.000 That's where we're sitting.

00:58:51.000 He said, he's like, oh, so Hepbi, do you have a study to show this?

00:58:55.000 No, I don't.

00:58:56.000 That is.

00:58:57.000 The question is, then, why do we not have more studies?

00:59:00.000 And it's because, I mean, I'm looking at you.

00:59:04.000 There is not a financial incentive.

00:59:06.000 Who's who's got who?

00:59:08.000 You hit it right in the head.

00:59:09.000 I didn't need to say it.

00:59:10.000 Exactly.

00:59:11.000 Who has the financial incentive to conduct the studies that are expensive?

00:59:14.000 Who's going to do them?

00:59:17.000 Wouldn't you think that somebody would take the big databases that we have and study vaccinating versus unvaccinated kids?

00:59:22.000 Wouldn't you think that would exist?

00:59:23.000 It's not a hard thing to do.

00:59:25.000 Well, yeah, I mean, who is unvaccinated in the United States besides like the Amish? 1.00

00:59:29.000 There are kids that are unvaccinated.

00:59:31.000 According to the CDC data, there's around at least 700, around 650,000 kids in America today that are unvaccinated, according to CDC's own data.

00:59:39.000 So, okay.

00:59:40.000 And certainly there are kids that are fully vaccinated versus having fewer vaccines versus no vaccines.

00:59:45.000 You can absolutely do that stuff.

00:59:46.000 I'm talking about completely unvaccinated.

00:59:47.000 And that's about 1%, is there?

00:59:49.000 You'd be surprised how many kids aren't vaccinated.

00:59:51.000 And by the way, the last person to do that study is the federal government, because remember I said earlier you can't sue vaccine manufacturers, but if you're injured by a vaccine, and I've got over a dozen, I've got a lot of people in my firm that do this work.

01:00:03.000 You can bring a claim for vaccine injury.

01:00:05.000 You just bring it against the Secretary of HHS.

01:00:08.000 You bring it against the federal government.

01:00:10.000 It's the only, and they fight you with DOJ attorneys.

01:00:12.000 It's the only product I know of in America where the government defends the interests of the industry against the injured consumer.

01:00:20.000 If you're injured, you're.

01:00:20.000 Think about that.

01:00:23.000 And that is because why?

01:00:25.000 That's because of the 1986 Act.

01:00:27.000 No, but why were they in, why was the federal, is it just it's big money?

01:00:30.000 Is it why was it why are they not so?

01:00:34.000 I brought up, I said, well, the government should do the study then.

01:00:36.000 We should underwrite.

01:00:38.000 So they have a structural.

01:00:40.000 I'll give you the conflict.

01:00:41.000 I'll give you the dynamic.

01:00:42.000 So, for example, the Department of Transportation promotes aviation, more planes in the sky, right?

01:00:48.000 More airports, more way to get around.

01:00:48.000 That's a good thing.

01:00:51.000 But when you're already working with industry to have them do more, you can't also have them regulating them for safety.

01:01:00.000 There's an inherent conflict.

01:01:01.000 So they created the NTSB.

01:01:02.000 It's totally separate.

01:01:03.000 Same thing, Department of Energy promotes more nuclear power plants.

01:01:08.000 But they don't, it's completely separate agencies responsible for the safety of nuclear power plants.

01:01:12.000 It's hard at computer two, say, hey, build another power plant at the same time.

01:01:15.000 I'm smacking you for safety.

01:01:16.000 It doesn't work so well.

01:01:17.000 Okay.

01:01:18.000 Regulate, it's a conflict from a regulatory standpoint.

01:01:20.000 So they separate those functions.

01:01:22.000 When it comes to vaccines, the very same department, the Department of Health and Human Services, is responsible for promoting vaccines statutorily, has to promote them and has to defend them against any claims of injury, right?

01:01:34.000 When families bring those claims.

01:01:35.000 So that's one side of their duties.

01:01:38.000 The other one is safety.

01:01:39.000 They're in conflict.

01:01:40.000 If they do a study that shows harm, what are the lawyers who represent vaccine-injured families going to do?

01:01:44.000 Use it against the federal government.

01:01:45.000 So what's the shortcut?

01:01:46.000 Don't do the study or don't do the study well.

01:01:51.000 The federal health authorities are completely conflicted.

01:01:54.000 Well, and isn't there sort of this idea of institutional capture as well, right?

01:01:57.000 Where you've got, you know, board members from, let's just say, Pfizer that ends up, you know, inside the government.

01:02:03.000 You mean like Julie Gerberting was the head of the CDC for a decade during Merck's most controversial controversies around MMR vaccine and Gardasil vaccine and some of its other products and then went to head their vaccine division and has made millions of dollars?

01:02:16.000 Yes.

01:02:16.000 You mean that?

01:02:17.000 Yeah.

01:02:17.000 Are there a lot of those instances?

01:02:18.000 Yes.

01:02:19.000 Okay.

01:02:19.000 Yes.

01:02:20.000 But also vaccines are a religion.

01:02:22.000 And he does such a great job.

01:02:24.000 Amen.

01:02:25.000 I was trying to get, I was like, what are you driving at with this?

01:02:28.000 It feels like you're, you know, obviously I'm talking to you now, and I sense a lot of the skepticism, but, you know, vaccines, amen.

01:02:35.000 I was like, oh, okay.

01:02:36.000 So I got the pro and I got, you know, no, so, but this, this is what you do.

01:02:41.000 You, you snuff out these inconsistencies or, you know, let's just say conflicts of interest or this presented as a religion and you're like, this is not a religion.

01:02:52.000 This is a fact-based, evidence-based area, and we're not dealing with it that way.

01:02:58.000 Look, in a religion, people know they're in a religion.

01:03:01.000 When you go to church, you go to your house of worship, you believe, and you know you're taking a leap of faith to answer the unanswerables.

01:03:09.000 Where do we go when we die?

01:03:11.000 You know, where does life come from, right?

01:03:13.000 You know you're in a religion.

01:03:15.000 These folks who run vaccinology, they think they're engaging in science, and what I'm telling you is they're not.

01:03:21.000 So it's a perverted religion, but it is a religion because they'll say things like vaccines don't cause autism. 0.65

01:03:26.000 But that's not true.

01:03:27.000 They don't know that.

01:03:28.000 They say things like, these are the most robustly trialed products ever before they come to market.

01:03:32.000 It's just false.

01:03:33.000 But the crazy thing is they believe these things.

01:03:36.000 They believe vaccines are safe a priori without any data.

01:03:39.000 Yeah, well, so you were talking about these clips that we need to show of you deposing different individuals.

01:03:47.000 This is Dr. Plotkin.

01:03:48.000 Who is Dr. Plotkin?

01:03:49.000 So Dr. Stanley Plotkin is the world's leading vaccinologist.

01:03:53.000 The medical textbooks on vaccines is called Plotkin's vaccines.

01:03:56.000 The gavel at ACIP is called Plotkin's Gavel.

01:03:58.000 That's the CDC vaccine committee.

01:04:00.000 They've named the gavel after this guy.

01:04:02.000 And they named the gavel after him.

01:04:03.000 He is because he attended every ACIP meeting for decades.

01:04:06.000 And in their own words, he's probably had more influence on ACIP than anybody out there.

01:04:12.000 He's probably had more of an influence in developing the current vaccine schedule than any living human being or dead.

01:04:18.000 How old is he, by the way?

01:04:19.000 He's pretty old at this point.

01:04:20.000 He was in his 90s.

01:04:21.000 Okay, so when did you depose him?

01:04:23.000 I deposed him in 2018.

01:04:25.000 Okay, so this clip I'm about to.

01:04:26.000 Yeah, okay.

01:04:27.000 So I see it.

01:04:27.000 It's from January 11, 2018.

01:04:29.000 I see it on here.

01:04:30.000 I'm just going to play the clip and then have you.

01:04:33.000 These are longer clips, so we might have cut out some of the context is important.

01:04:36.000 You can fill that in on the back side of this.

01:04:39.000 Play cut 170.

01:04:41.000 Point is that there are no studies showing that it does cause autism, except one study by two well-known anti-vaccination figures, Geyer and Geyer, who have no legitimacy whatsoever.

01:04:54.000 Well, and it's okay.

01:04:56.000 And then it goes on.

01:04:57.000 So what they're saying is that there's no evidence.

01:05:01.000 And the important point from my point of view is that there is no positive evidence, all right?

01:05:06.000 To do a proper study.

01:05:08.000 So that was the whole.

01:05:10.000 That's the wrong clip.

01:05:12.000 I probably, maybe I sent the wrong clip and I it was one minute.

01:05:14.000 No, no, no, it's fine.

01:05:15.000 It's a one-minute clip.

01:05:16.000 This is what you were kind of talking about before, though.

01:05:19.000 Well, the clip, if you had the clip, what the clip would show is this.

01:05:25.000 He eventually concedes there are no studies that show DTAP doesn't cause autism, okay?

01:05:30.000 He also, and he says, well, and I say, but you have done studies and you claim that do support the MMR vaccine doesn't cause autism, right?

01:05:37.000 He goes, yes.

01:05:38.000 I go, so the study.

01:05:38.000 But I said that slower.

01:05:39.000 So that last part, I said to him, you believe studies have been done to show that MMR vaccine does not cause autism?

01:05:48.000 And he says, yes.

01:05:50.000 And so I said, okay, so studies are possible to rule out that a vaccine causes autism.

01:05:55.000 And he said, yes.

01:05:56.000 I said, great.

01:05:57.000 We should do that.

01:05:58.000 But there are no studies that show that D-Tap doesn't cause autism.

01:06:02.000 And he said, and he had to eventually concede that there are not because the IOM said they're not.

01:06:07.000 And so I said to him, I said, Dr. Plotin, shouldn't you wait until you do, until you have the studies that show that D-Tap doesn't cause autism before you tell a parent that vaccines don't cause autism?

01:06:20.000 So what did he say to that?

01:06:21.000 He said, do I wait?

01:06:23.000 No, because I have to take into account the health of the child.

01:06:26.000 And then I said, so for that reason, you're willing to tell a parent that vaccines don't cause autism, even though the science isn't there to support it.

01:06:33.000 And he said, yes.

01:06:34.000 Okay, so what he is saying, he has admitted what the CDC webpage now admits, which is we told people vaccines don't cause autism to avoid vaccine hesitancy, even we didn't have the studies to support it.

01:06:48.000 Okay, so that takes us in some ways to our.

01:06:51.000 I mean, you have some more here.

01:06:52.000 We could play them this.

01:06:54.000 You're deposing world-leading vaccinologist, Dr. Catherine Edwards, regarding vaccines and autism.

01:07:00.000 So that's another, we could play that clip.

01:07:02.000 It's about 40 seconds, a little longer.

01:07:03.000 Let's go ahead and play it and see where it leads us.

01:07:06.000 171.

01:07:07.000 In the expert disclosures for this case, it asserts that, among other things, you will testify that, quote, the issue of whether vaccines cause autism has been thoroughly researched and rejected, end quote.

01:07:20.000 It's your testimony that MMR vaccine cannot cause autism.

01:07:24.000 It's your testimony that HEP B vaccine cannot cause autism.

01:07:24.000 That's correct.

01:07:27.000 That's correct.

01:07:28.000 It's your testimony that eye fall cannot cause autism.

01:07:31.000 Yes.

01:07:32.000 It's your testimony that HIP vaccine cannot cause autism.

01:07:35.000 Yes.

01:07:35.000 It's your testimony that Varicella vaccine cannot cause autism.

01:07:38.000 Yes.

01:07:39.000 It's your testimony that Prevnar vaccine cannot cause autism.

01:07:42.000 Yes.

01:07:43.000 It's your testimony that GTAP vaccine cannot cause autism.

01:07:46.000 Yes.

01:07:47.000 Well, she just goes through the list. 0.84

01:07:48.000 Well, but you're missing the important part of the clip.

01:07:52.000 Well, these are very long clips.

01:07:53.000 I just want to say that.

01:07:54.000 Then I say to her, Do you have any study that shows Hep B vaccine doesn't cause autism?

01:07:58.000 And she says, no.

01:08:00.000 Do you have any that shows that I go through each one?

01:08:03.000 You just go, okay, I need to get that.

01:08:04.000 And then she needs the next 30 seconds. 1.00

01:08:06.000 Give me the next 30 seconds.

01:08:07.000 So you kind of need the part.

01:08:09.000 You know, you got to set up.

01:08:10.000 Listen, they're just giving me the clips.

01:08:12.000 That's okay.

01:08:13.000 The issue is, these are longer clips.

01:08:15.000 Anybody can watch it.

01:08:15.000 Yeah, but so that's funny.

01:08:17.000 So she goes through, you go, this is your testimony.

01:08:19.000 These do not cause autism.

01:08:20.000 She goes, yes, And then you go, do you have science to back up this, this, this, this?

01:08:25.000 She goes, no, And she has to admit no because she knows she answered.

01:08:30.000 And at that point, I've already been a few hours of me pounding her. 1.00

01:08:32.000 This is infuriating on some level.

01:08:34.000 Now, I don't, let me just say, this doesn't make me think that all vaccines are bad.

01:08:40.000 I don't believe that.

01:08:41.000 I genuinely don't believe that.

01:08:42.000 That's not the way we've done our family.

01:08:45.000 I would just say that this is infuriating because there has been so much mudslinging and name-calling.

01:08:52.000 And like, you're an anti-I mean, listen, there was a whole era when Charlie was fighting this COVID mandate where he started getting put like Charlie Kirk, anti-vaxxer, Charlie Kirk, like in the media clippings because he was just like, I don't, this feels really wrong to me, bodily autonomy, this whole argument.

01:09:10.000 And so we got smeared as anti-vaxxers on the show, which was like not true, first of all.

01:09:16.000 But second of all, you know, we were simply asking a question we had never asked before.

01:09:21.000 We had never even talked about it as a team, as a show.

01:09:24.000 It was just like, hey, they're forcing this thing that you just came up with.

01:09:27.000 Like, do we, there's, I know you haven't done the long-term studies about it because we just got it, right?

01:09:32.000 And so you start asking all these new questions.

01:09:35.000 Up until that point, I think most people in the country were like, yeah, I'm like pro-vaccine.

01:09:40.000 You know, it saved countless lives, right?

01:09:42.000 So all of a sudden, COVID unleashes this new wave of question asking because we saw how we were dealt with in this.

01:09:50.000 And then, but again, I wasn't even questioning the schedule.

01:09:54.000 I wasn't questioning what I thought was, you know, essentially established science, right?

01:09:58.000 And then to hear lead vaccinologists in the world going like, I mean, we didn't hear it, but you filled me in on the second half of the clip, which is the most important clip, studio.

01:10:09.000 But to hear that the answer was no, We don't have science.

01:10:13.000 We don't have science and we don't have the studies.

01:10:15.000 It actually, to your point, now I'm very happy that RFK's HHS and the CDC under him has updated the language saying, let me get it specifically here because I want to make sure I have the exact wording, right?

01:10:29.000 It's 168.

01:10:31.000 Vaccines do not cause autism is not an evidence-based claim.

01:10:35.000 And it appears unless you're scientific studies have not ruled out the possibility that infant vaccines contribute to the development of autism.

01:10:44.000 However, let me just keep going.

01:10:46.000 The statement has historically been disseminated by the CDC and other federal health agencies within HHS to prevent vaccine hesitancy.

01:10:53.000 Yeah.

01:10:53.000 Yes.

01:10:54.000 This is an author.

01:10:54.000 Try being a doctor.

01:10:55.000 Okay.

01:10:56.000 This is on your federal government's website now.

01:11:00.000 And I'm sure heads are exploding.

01:11:02.000 And I'm sure you're just in the middle of this kind of, and you're, is it fair to say that your role in this, because you've been suing vaccine makers and I mean, you must be.

01:11:14.000 Not suing vaccine makers.

01:11:15.000 Remember, I can't sue them.

01:11:16.000 I would love to sue them for the injuries, but I can't.

01:11:19.000 But you've been litigating these cases, civil rights cases.

01:11:21.000 Right against the federal government.

01:11:23.000 And so you're probably not very popular among some circles within the medical establishment.

01:11:28.000 Understatement, right?

01:11:29.000 Understatement, yeah.

01:11:30.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:11:31.000 Understatement.

01:11:32.000 And okay, so now it's, I hope it's all clear.

01:11:35.000 It's a focus for you guys at home because I am starting to see where the lines are drawn and where the battle lines are at.

01:11:43.000 I will tell you, it's a mixed bag.

01:11:45.000 Very unpopular in some circles, very popular in others.

01:11:49.000 Oh, I don't doubt that.

01:11:51.000 And I'll tell you the community of doctors, the doctors who actually read the primary sources, like Joel, right?

01:11:59.000 I think, you know, Joel doesn't have an emotional reaction to having a discussion with me.

01:12:04.000 He has an intellectual reaction.

01:12:06.000 The doctors who don't know the primary sources who just repeat mantras, they get worked up pretty quick.

01:12:11.000 These doctors did know the primary sources.

01:12:13.000 I'm going to play the second part of that clip.

01:12:14.000 Well, there are different little – okay, so they are vaccinologists.

01:12:18.000 They're a tiny little group of people.

01:12:20.000 They're more researchers, if you will, right?

01:12:24.000 They're vaccinologists.

01:12:25.000 They are like the vaccine experts.

01:12:27.000 When people think of doctors, they think, oh, the doctors, you know, they all know about vaccines, or the pediatricians at least know, or the immunologists know, or the infectious disease doctors know.

01:12:35.000 They're taking their cues from these people.

01:12:36.000 The vaccinologists.

01:12:38.000 That's what people don't get.

01:12:39.000 We do not know.

01:12:39.000 They do not know.

01:12:40.000 We did not learn this.

01:12:41.000 Okay, when we go through our training, we are taught, here are the horrible diseases.

01:12:47.000 Here's how much lower we have them today.

01:12:49.000 Here's your schedule.

01:12:51.000 That's it.

01:12:51.000 Good luck.

01:12:52.000 You don't really get into the details.

01:12:53.000 You certainly don't get into the ingredients.

01:12:55.000 You don't get into safety.

01:12:56.000 You don't learn why we shouldn't trust Pharma 101.

01:12:58.000 You just are taught vaccines are good.

01:13:01.000 And so you go do it.

01:13:02.000 And it's not nefarious.

01:13:03.000 It's not that any doctor or pediatrician is giving a vaccine because they think they're harming a kid or they want to harm a kid.

01:13:08.000 They want to protect kids.

01:13:10.000 That is what we are taught.

01:13:11.000 And unless you go learn this yourself, unless you listen to testimony like Dr. Edwards, I didn't know any of this.

01:13:17.000 I was in the integrated space and I still didn't know 99% of this.

01:13:21.000 You have to have these kinds of conversations and doctors need to hear it.

01:13:25.000 And that is why I don't want to have a contentious conversation with Paul Offen.

01:13:30.000 I want to ask him these questions.

01:13:32.000 I want to say, okay, here's what the research is.

01:13:35.000 Why do you think that vaccines can't cause?

01:13:38.000 I would love to know what they would say if they were questioned.

01:13:40.000 They never get asked those questions because they only go on the things where they get the softball questions where they can say the pre-answered questions.

01:13:46.000 Well, except for deposition when they have vaccines.

01:13:47.000 Except when they have a deposition.

01:13:48.000 But this is what's frustrating, though, because I have only my own experience to go off of, but we got looked at like we are crazy people.

01:13:56.000 Like, oh, you're those people.

01:13:58.000 We are probably in terms of our audience on the very moderate end of this.

01:14:03.000 And all I wanted to do was delay certain shots so the kids would get older.

01:14:07.000 There would be like less toxicity issues or whatever.

01:14:10.000 I mean, it was basically like, hey, vaccines are still good, but I just want to kind of like space them out more.

01:14:16.000 Right.

01:14:16.000 And we got looked at like we were absolute nutcases by so many of these pediatricians.

01:14:21.000 And we were struggling to, you know, just get people to work with us.

01:14:26.000 Like, this is our comfort level.

01:14:27.000 Can you work with us on this?

01:14:28.000 And then on top of that, you have the schools, even private Christian schools in California, they're like bound by the state as well, by the state schedule.

01:14:38.000 It's a brand new year and a brand new opportunity to change the world for the better.

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01:15:45.000 So there's no religious exemption, which is one of the things I want to talk to you about.

01:15:49.000 But before we get too far afield, here is the second half of that clip of the deposition, 175.

01:15:56.000 Let me just finish.

01:15:56.000 Are there any studies one way or another that supports whether it does or doesn't cause autism?

01:16:03.000 Part of MMR, but not as Barcella by itself.

01:16:08.000 No, sir.

01:16:08.000 No studies that say it does or no studies that say it doesn't.

01:16:12.000 Right.

01:16:16.000 There have been studies that have found an association between hepatitis B vaccine and autism, correct?

01:16:25.000 Not studies that I feel are credible.

01:16:29.000 Okay, which study are you referring to when you say that?

01:16:34.000 Well, why don't you show me this study and then I'll see whether I agree with it.

01:16:38.000 Still missing part of it.

01:16:39.000 Still missing the part of it.

01:16:40.000 But we got a little bit of it right there.

01:16:42.000 Dr. Edwards is one of the four editors of Plotkin's vaccine books.

01:16:45.000 She's considered a world-leading vaccinologist.

01:16:46.000 Okay.

01:16:47.000 But there is a difference because the vaccinologists are the ones that are really, you know, they're the ones that the CDC, everybody else relies upon.

01:16:55.000 You know, when I depose pediatricians, infectious disease doctors, or immunologists, they don't know almost anything about vaccines in my experience.

01:17:03.000 The ones who know, who know, you know, are the vaccinologists, right?

01:17:08.000 Dr. Warsh knows more about vaccines than virtually than any pediatrician immunologist or infectious doctor or vaccine that I've encountered.

01:17:17.000 So because he's looked at it.

01:17:19.000 They don't look at it.

01:17:20.000 That's a very nice thing to say.

01:17:22.000 And, you know, and I want to give you your due here as well.

01:17:22.000 Yeah.

01:17:25.000 Doctor, I'm not hearing from you that you're anti these vaccines.

01:17:31.000 I'm hearing that you're you want to make sure everybody has freedom, which is like a crazy idea.

01:17:37.000 Now, I would be convinced on potentially on this community immunity on if you could make the case to me, okay?

01:17:44.000 Because there is a benefit.

01:17:46.000 One of the main things I've ever heard from, you know, the benefit of vaccines is that you could immunize a whole population and therefore nobody dies, right?

01:17:55.000 Okay.

01:17:56.000 That is sort of the idea.

01:17:58.000 But I love that you're saying at least if I, because my experience is I got looked at like I was a crazy person, I feel like I wouldn't be looked at like that in your office and you would give me a straight strategy and a plan of attack to do it the way I was comfortable.

01:18:10.000 If there was a magic pill and you could give that magic pill to your kids and they would never get sick and there would be no consequences, everybody would line up for that.

01:18:18.000 That's not the reality of the world.

01:18:19.000 The vaccine is not magic.

01:18:20.000 It's a product.

01:18:22.000 We have to weigh the risks versus the benefits.

01:18:24.000 And the question is, what are the risks?

01:18:28.000 We have a pretty decent understanding of the benefits.

01:18:31.000 We don't have a full understanding of the risks.

01:18:33.000 And that's the question.

01:18:34.000 And why are we not able to talk about that?

01:18:36.000 Why don't doctors want to know that?

01:18:38.000 I don't understand.

01:18:40.000 If they do increase the risk of, let's say, asthma, let's say Hep B increases your risk of asthma by 10 times.

01:18:46.000 Wouldn't we want to know that?

01:18:47.000 Wouldn't we want to say, hey.

01:18:48.000 Well, but this is the question.

01:18:49.000 Why won't prominent vaccine experts debate skeptics openly?

01:18:54.000 Are we suggesting there's a financial incentive to not do so for them personally or institutionally?

01:18:59.000 Why won't Paul Offit do it?

01:19:00.000 He can't defend it.

01:19:03.000 Paul Offit would not sit here and debate me.

01:19:05.000 There's no question.

01:19:06.000 I don't think he could.

01:19:08.000 The primary is indefensible in my view.

01:19:11.000 That's why he won't do it.

01:19:12.000 I would love to hear his opinion, though.

01:19:14.000 I would love to be able to ask him these questions very nicely and say, convince me otherwise.

01:19:19.000 I'm happy to give kids a million vaccines if they protect you from everything and don't cause any harm.

01:19:24.000 But I don't ever hear the discussions about the harms.

01:19:26.000 That's what happened with hepatitis B this last week. 0.95

01:19:28.000 It was all the things you hear on the news are, we're going to kill kids.

01:19:31.000 There are going to be people that are going to get liver cancer.

01:19:34.000 We're going to get more hepatitis B.

01:19:35.000 But the question is, at what cost?

01:19:36.000 How many kids are being harmed by this vaccine when you're giving it to a one-day-old newborn?

01:19:40.000 They say none, but they don't have the evidence to back that up.

01:19:43.000 Because where are those studies?

01:19:45.000 It was never done before the vaccine hit the market.

01:19:47.000 So what can a patient do if their doctor refuses to discuss vaccine options?

01:19:52.000 I mean, if they refuse to discuss vaccine options and you want to talk about it, then you should find a different doctor.

01:19:56.000 I mean, that's the simple answer.

01:19:58.000 What if you find yourself like I was in the hospital room and I'm not given options?

01:19:58.000 Agreed.

01:20:03.000 You're talking about you got to step in, right?

01:20:06.000 You just got to say no.

01:20:06.000 Just say no.

01:20:07.000 But you can always refuse.

01:20:08.000 You put your foot down and you say no.

01:20:10.000 There are no mandates to get a vaccine.

01:20:12.000 There are rules for school.

01:20:13.000 I was going to say, so go back to California.

01:20:15.000 You're in California, right?

01:20:16.000 Correct.

01:20:18.000 So sent my kids to a Christian school, thought we'd have more options, explore religious freedoms.

01:20:22.000 There was none.

01:20:23.000 I remember being in shows telling Charlie, like, tell him to get religious freedom for California.

01:20:28.000 And, you know, even HHS is saying, well, it's a state-based issue.

01:20:31.000 We can't do anything about it.

01:20:32.000 Are you suing California for this kind of stuff?

01:20:34.000 Please tell me.

01:20:34.000 I do have a lawsuit in California.

01:20:36.000 We restored the exemption in Mississippi.

01:20:38.000 We restored the exemption in Mississippi.

01:20:39.000 We got a federal court decision that restored a religious exemption there.

01:20:44.000 We just were in the middle of doing it in West Virginia.

01:20:48.000 Please.

01:20:48.000 Is that the answer, though?

01:20:50.000 And I want to get you in because I know you've got something important here.

01:20:53.000 But is that the answer?

01:20:56.000 Or is there a more wide-sweeping answer we need to pursue to this issue of medical autonomy, medical freedom?

01:21:05.000 You want a little bit longer answer to that?

01:21:07.000 Yes, please.

01:21:07.000 Okay.

01:21:08.000 Here's my little bit longer answer to that.

01:21:12.000 The answer is that yes, we should have freedom.

01:21:15.000 You know, this country was founded as a rebellion against the idea that there's some central authority, some central government, a king, a dictator, whatever it was, that should make the decisions for you.

01:21:27.000 It was bounded on the idea that we should all have individual and civil rights, so that those are an enabler rights given to us by our maker.

01:21:34.000 And to be sure, freedoms come with dangers.

01:21:37.000 Letting people have freedom of speech comes with danger and assemble who they want.

01:21:40.000 And you talk about cars.

01:21:42.000 Religion who they want. 0.97

01:21:43.000 Freedom to have cars.

01:21:43.000 Freedom of cars.

01:21:44.000 Everything comes with a risk.

01:21:46.000 But we have struck the balance in this country that we should always err on the side of letting individuals make their choice over letting the government make the choice.

01:21:55.000 Because the second you say somebody else should choose, it always ends up being the government.

01:21:58.000 And that always creates problems in the long run.

01:22:00.000 Always.

01:22:01.000 Okay.

01:22:02.000 And so, and when you also look at the long arc of history, in my opinion, what's caused more harm, devastation to humanity than any pestilence or anything else?

01:22:12.000 It is the idea that individuals shouldn't have rights and freedoms, that the government should suppress and do what they want.

01:22:17.000 And how do they do that typically?

01:22:19.000 How does the government get what they want? 0.84

01:22:21.000 Coercion, mandates.

01:22:23.000 It starts slowly, a little bit of coercion, a little more, and a little more, and then manages censorship, because when the government has a policy...

01:22:23.000 Exactly.

01:22:29.000 Then revoking licenses, then, you know...

01:22:32.000 Using the force.

01:22:33.000 And when do they do that?

01:22:33.000 Yeah, exactly.

01:22:34.000 They do that when they can't persuade you on the merits.

01:22:37.000 That's when they do it.

01:22:37.000 Okay?

01:22:39.000 The government should try to persuade you on the merits of vaccines.

01:22:42.000 They spend billions of dollars a year promoting vaccines.

01:22:44.000 Billions already, promoting them.

01:22:47.000 Okay?

01:22:48.000 And they act like anti-vaxxers, whatever, again, that means.

01:22:52.000 Or somehow this huge thing.

01:22:56.000 It's the families you've injured.

01:22:58.000 In my opinion, the reason Bobby's worried is because there are millions who have been negatively affected by vaccines.

01:23:03.000 And people always say to me, well, you know, if vaccines cause harm, I would know it.

01:23:07.000 I'd say, do you know the last three drugs that came off the market?

01:23:10.000 You don't.

01:23:11.000 You know why?

01:23:12.000 And you know what harms are caused?

01:23:13.000 Because it didn't affect you or your family.

01:23:15.000 So good for you.

01:23:16.000 And if vaccines didn't harm you, good for you.

01:23:18.000 So you wouldn't know it.

01:23:19.000 But for those that it did, it did.

01:23:23.000 And they're there.

01:23:24.000 Now, mandates are the use is, are what bullies, terrants, and dictators use when they can't get their way on persuasion on the merits.

01:23:33.000 And so I don't think there should be any mandates of these products, period.

01:23:36.000 So to answer your question, a religious exemption is a substitute, so to speak.

01:23:42.000 But no, there shouldn't be mandates at all.

01:23:44.000 Persuading the merits.

01:23:45.000 What Florida is doing.

01:23:46.000 By the way, Denmark has no mandates.

01:23:47.000 Sweden has no manmark.

01:23:48.000 Finland has no mandates.

01:23:49.000 Most provinces in Canada have no mandates.

01:23:51.000 Same thing with Australia.

01:23:52.000 And a lot of states here.

01:23:54.000 Yeah.

01:23:54.000 There are many states.

01:23:55.000 We're not seeing massive outbreaks, even though they have religious freedom and personal belief exemptions.

01:24:01.000 Check the box.

01:24:02.000 Check the box exemptions.

01:24:04.000 The only ones that don't right now are Cali, New York, Maine, and Connecticut.

01:24:06.000 And West Virginia is in the works.

01:24:08.000 West Virginia.

01:24:08.000 That's it.

01:24:09.000 Yeah.

01:24:10.000 Interesting.

01:24:11.000 Governor Morrissey is totally on the side of restoring an exemption there.

01:24:16.000 So the point is that, and just like Joel just said, 45 states with check the box exemptions, that's worked just fine.

01:24:25.000 And let's not forget, doctor is literally the word dosaire.

01:24:27.000 It means to teach.

01:24:28.000 It's not to force, right?

01:24:30.000 My job is not to force somebody to do anything.

01:24:33.000 That was never the job.

01:24:35.000 Why are we here to force a vaccine on somebody that doesn't want it?

01:24:38.000 Our job is to educate.

01:24:40.000 If I believe so strongly in vaccines, I should be able to give you that information that will convince you that this product is good for your child.

01:24:46.000 So I'm cognizant of the fact.

01:24:48.000 Sorry.

01:24:49.000 I promise you that, Mike.

01:24:51.000 Sorry.

01:24:52.000 Riley, by all means, if you have questions here.

01:24:54.000 Go ahead.

01:24:55.000 Okay.

01:24:55.000 Formulate your next one.

01:24:55.000 All right.

01:24:58.000 What I don't want to do is to, on the show, is to make people more confused.

01:25:06.000 Maybe this is the wrong question, but direct it as you will.

01:25:10.000 You have kids, right?

01:25:11.000 I do.

01:25:12.000 Is there one or two vaccines that like, or three or four, that you're like, no, no, no, that's a good one?

01:25:12.000 Okay.

01:25:20.000 We were talking about vitamin K before we came on it.

01:25:22.000 You know, I just, it's things like that.

01:25:24.000 That like, don't, please don't get these things lost in the shuffle as we're talking about all these other conversations about medical autonomy and freedom of choice and doing what's in the best informed consent.

01:25:37.000 All this.

01:25:37.000 Is there stuff that they like, please don't get, throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak?

01:25:42.000 So, I mean, that's the question I get asked the most is what should I do?

01:25:46.000 What's the best vaccines?

01:25:48.000 And the answer is you have to go back and weigh the risks and the benefits.

01:25:51.000 There isn't anything.

01:25:52.000 It's not so hard though.

01:25:53.000 Well, I understand people.

01:25:54.000 We have full-time jobs.

01:25:55.000 We are teaching baseball.

01:25:58.000 We're just trying to survive.

01:26:00.000 If you want to defer to the CDC schedule, you can do that.

01:26:02.000 If you want to go outside of the CDC schedule, there's good resources, though.

01:26:06.000 Yes, you could reach out to us.

01:26:08.000 But the way that you do it is you have to look at, okay, what could kill my kid?

01:26:11.000 What is actually around?

01:26:12.000 What's less likely for them to get?

01:26:14.000 What are they probably not going to get?

01:26:15.000 And then what are the known risks and what are the benefits?

01:26:18.000 You have to weigh it like that.

01:26:19.000 We know that there's measles around.

01:26:20.000 We know that there is whooping cough around.

01:26:23.000 Very unlikely to get very sick from rotavirus.

01:26:25.000 Very unlikely to get very sick from hepatitis B, very unlikely to get very sick from chickenpox.

01:26:30.000 Haemophilus influenza can make you very sick, though it's very rare.

01:26:34.000 Pneumococcus is a little bit more prevalent, but still could make you very sick.

01:26:38.000 So you can weigh it like that, but ultimately any kid could get anything.

01:26:42.000 If you're traveling, so look, because it's a basic question.

01:26:45.000 So we asked a bunch of the moms to send in questions, and it was like, does my child need any shots?

01:26:50.000 It's simple, but it's a main one.

01:26:51.000 If they don't travel outside of the U.S., is that like point is, like, can somebody be completely safe and fine and healthy if they don't get any shots?

01:27:00.000 Yeah, of course.

01:27:00.000 I mean, most of these diseases are very rare.

01:27:04.000 And even if you get them, you are very unlikely to get extremely sick.

01:27:07.000 But it is possible.

01:27:08.000 People die of the flu.

01:27:09.000 People die of measles.

01:27:10.000 People have kids have died of whooping cough.

01:27:12.000 So you could be that one kid that gets very sick.

01:27:14.000 It's very unlikely.

01:27:15.000 If everybody stops vaccinating from measles, will it be more prevalent?

01:27:20.000 Yeah, that's probably true.

01:27:21.000 There will probably be more people to get it.

01:27:22.000 So we have to die from it.

01:27:25.000 I mean, there will.

01:27:26.000 People get it.

01:27:27.000 There's a ratio there, right?

01:27:28.000 So that's the same thing with Hep B. Like for this new, for the new recommendation, will more kids get hepatitis B?

01:27:33.000 Probably.

01:27:33.000 But your view.

01:27:35.000 Some of the data that you've looked at suggests that if you get measles or like normally in nature, that you might have other potential benefits, which is something people, parents should look into.

01:27:46.000 Yeah, it's the data directly on PubMed.

01:27:50.000 And kids that have had measles and moms, okay, this data is, there's no data that contradicts the study.

01:27:58.000 20% decline in cardiovascular deaths.

01:28:01.000 Cardiovascular disease kills 900,000 Americans a year.

01:28:01.000 Think about that.

01:28:04.000 If it has a 20% decline, think about how many life years saved or lost that is.

01:28:11.000 Even, you know, even when you compare it to the majority of the state, even if it's 1%, even if it's 1% decline, right, increase in cardiovascular deaths, your public health benefit has gone upside down.

01:28:21.000 Let me tell you something.

01:28:22.000 Pathogens over time have come and gone, right, throughout the eons.

01:28:25.000 They come and they go.

01:28:26.000 Measles hasn't.

01:28:27.000 It could be that maybe God didn't mess up.

01:28:29.000 Maybe there was an evolutionary chinological reason that measles around.

01:28:33.000 I'm not saying there was.

01:28:34.000 I'm just saying that that data appears to reflect that.

01:28:37.000 Also, studies that show, for example, that kids that have had measles versus those that don't, okay, have a 66% reduction in Hodgkin's lymphoma and 166% reduction in non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

01:28:51.000 That killed 20,000 people last year, a lot of them kids.

01:28:54.000 Again, if having measles reduces that rate, then again, your public health benefits upside down.

01:29:01.000 Now, I'll point to one other data point and then I'll stop and I'll just point it to this.

01:29:05.000 In the early 1980s, there's data that reflect less than 10% of kids had a chronic health condition in America.

01:29:11.000 Today, it's over 40%.

01:29:13.000 Some data showing over 50% and often multiple times.

01:29:16.000 And what are those chronic health conditions that have gone through the roof?

01:29:20.000 Almost all of them have some basis on some form of immune system dysregulation, whether it's asthma, an atopic issue.

01:29:27.000 Even ADHD has its etiology if you look at the underlying science in biomarkers that showed some form of immune system dysfunction.

01:29:35.000 Okay.

01:29:36.000 What has caused the immune system of our children to go well?

01:29:39.000 That's a multi-billion dollar question.

01:29:41.000 Well, let me tell you, it's not that.

01:29:44.000 Let me put it this way.

01:29:45.000 Okay.

01:29:46.000 Let me tell you where to start.

01:29:48.000 I have to say, you are not a doctor, right?

01:29:50.000 I just want to say, like, I'm not a doctor.

01:29:52.000 I'll tell you a place to start based on logic, common sense.

01:29:55.000 I think, okay, my 10-year-old will give you this answer, okay?

01:29:59.000 You don't need to have any degrees to give this answer.

01:30:01.000 Why don't you start with ruling out the products that you now inject 29 times specifically to modify the immune system by the first birthday?

01:30:10.000 Rule those out.

01:30:11.000 You know what the medical community can't tell you right now?

01:30:13.000 They can't tell you what's causing all that stuff for them.

01:30:15.000 Can I piggyback?

01:30:16.000 Because I think it's really important to go back to your question where you said about what should I do.

01:30:20.000 To me, that is the most confusing part: the understanding of what are these long-term risks.

01:30:25.000 Are vaccines related to asthma, allergies, autoimmune condition, autism?

01:30:30.000 All of these things matter because if they're not related to those in any way and we do all the research and we find that, that really changes the equation when you say, oh, well, there's we're preventing one hep B.

01:30:40.000 Okay, that's good.

01:30:40.000 But if it's creating all of these other problems, then we need to know that because that changes the risk-benefit calculation where you say, okay, well, now we're doing all these vaccines.

01:30:50.000 What if we just prioritize the few and that can bring it down?

01:30:53.000 It's not about not wanting to protect kids from disease.

01:30:57.000 You also want to protect them from chronic disease.

01:30:59.000 And so you have to balance those two things.

01:31:01.000 We don't want anybody to be sick.

01:31:03.000 But if vaccines are related in some way to chronic disease, we need to know that.

01:31:08.000 And there is no way right now that we are studying to figure that out.

01:31:13.000 You have to follow kids forward.

01:31:14.000 What's that?

01:31:15.000 Vaccinated versus unvaccinated.

01:31:16.000 We need a lot more studies.

01:31:17.000 We have to do that.

01:31:17.000 We have to.

01:31:18.000 We only have epidemiology.

01:31:20.000 And epidemiology can be adjusted and massaged based on the person's predetermined beliefs.

01:31:26.000 And that's why sometimes you see a very pro-vaccine person find very pro-vaccine findings and a pretty anti-vaccine person find something that's not because you can adjust it to find what you're looking to find.

01:31:36.000 The only way to answer the question, in my opinion, the only way for me to be able to tell you what you should do is to know what are the risks.

01:31:44.000 Then I can weigh those two things and I can say your benefit from this vaccine outweighs your risk.

01:31:49.000 Is there like a central database where like-minded doctors like yourself, you know, so example, so somebody might be listening to this?

01:31:59.000 There are a few.

01:32:00.000 Somebody might be listening to this and, you know, they might be living in Columbus, Ohio.

01:32:04.000 And they're like, well, I can't get out to LA or whatever where you live.

01:32:08.000 Is there like, could they find somebody that you would, you know, that you might be like-minded with in Columbus?

01:32:14.000 But how do they find somebody?

01:32:15.000 You ask the other parents that are holistic-minded.

01:32:17.000 There's no real like easy way to find you want, or you want to create a target list for them of the list of doctors that's attacked.

01:32:25.000 Yeah, see, I feel that's part of the problem.

01:32:27.000 Yeah, that's part of the problem.

01:32:28.000 Okay.

01:32:28.000 We have other questions from moms, though.

01:32:30.000 So, yeah, another mom sent in this question, which kind of piggybacks based off of what you were just talking about, is many parents say that their child has changed after having vaccines, especially after, obviously, a vaccine.

01:32:42.000 How should doctors respond in a way that respects the parent, but is also evidence-based?

01:32:48.000 Well, we should be listening to parents.

01:32:49.000 I mean, this is the craziest part of the whole vaccine autism world, which you bring that up and then doctors say, oh, there's no proof.

01:32:56.000 We don't have proof that ice cream causes autism.

01:33:00.000 And I'm like, well, okay, true.

01:33:02.000 You don't have a study to prove that.

01:33:03.000 But there are hundreds of thousands or at least tens of thousands of parents, probably hundreds of thousands, maybe millions that have said, after my kid got a vaccine, this happened.

01:33:11.000 That's important data.

01:33:12.000 It's not some random piece of information.

01:33:15.000 Parents say this.

01:33:17.000 This is not an anti-vaccine parent.

01:33:19.000 This is literally a parent who went in to get a vaccine and they swear their kid was acting one way the day before and different the day after.

01:33:26.000 Why would we not listen to those parents?

01:33:28.000 That's the data that we need.

01:33:29.000 We have to figure out: are there some genetics?

01:33:32.000 Is there something else that they're doing?

01:33:33.000 Why are those kids having those reactions?

01:33:35.000 Some of them are probably coincidental.

01:33:37.000 I mean, you get a vaccine this morning, you might have a heart attack this afternoon.

01:33:37.000 That's for sure.

01:33:40.000 But if millions of people have a heart attack on the same day they get a vaccine, shouldn't you say, hmm, maybe it's a vaccine?

01:33:45.000 Shouldn't we study that?

01:33:47.000 But these moms don't feel like they're being listened to. 1.00

01:33:49.000 They're not being listened to.

01:33:50.000 They have not been.

01:33:51.000 And that's hopefully what's going to change.

01:33:51.000 They haven't been.

01:33:53.000 Hopefully, if we continue to have these conversations, we're not going to look at a parent who thinks that a vaccine caused their child's problem and call them an anti-vaxxer or call them crazy.

01:34:02.000 They're not crazy.

01:34:03.000 They have an experience.

01:34:04.000 We need to listen to that experience and we need to study it so that way we can figure out if it is true or not.

01:34:09.000 If vaccines are related to autism, why don't we want to know that?

01:34:14.000 It's not because we don't want to ever give a kid a vaccine again.

01:34:17.000 Wouldn't you want to know so you could say, hey, well, that vaccine looks like it's increasing your risk of eczema by 20 times.

01:34:24.000 Why?

01:34:25.000 Is there an ingredient in there?

01:34:26.000 Can we change that ingredient?

01:34:27.000 Can we change the schedule?

01:34:28.000 Can we do something different?

01:34:29.000 We don't have to stop vaccinating ever again.

01:34:31.000 We've done that before.

01:34:31.000 We could change it.

01:34:33.000 So why can't we have those discussions?

01:34:36.000 We want to protect kids.

01:34:36.000 It's insane.

01:34:38.000 We want them to be healthy.

01:34:39.000 We want them not to get infections and not to have chronic conditions.

01:34:43.000 So we need to start listening to these parents.

01:34:45.000 And I hope that people are starting to connect and to understand that they're not the only ones.

01:34:50.000 There are many, many people that feel this way.

01:34:52.000 He sees them all the time.

01:34:53.000 I get, you know, some of them, but not as many as he probably sees.

01:34:55.000 But it's important that we come together.

01:34:58.000 Yeah.

01:34:59.000 I just find, I mean, there's, what I'm hopeful that we are doing here is we're educating about some of the underlying science that I think that you guys have done brilliantly.

01:35:10.000 But these, you know, we were just with Marina, who's our CMO.

01:35:14.000 She's pregnant. 1.00

01:35:15.000 She's the CMO of Turning Point USA.

01:35:17.000 She stopped by.

01:35:18.000 And she all of a sudden she finds out you're here.

01:35:21.000 She's like, well, I actually do have questions, you know, and they're trying to get her to her doctor, her pediatrician, or her OBE said, you have to get three shots.

01:35:29.000 You have to get a flu shot, an RSV shot, and was it whooping cough?

01:35:33.000 Was it?

01:35:34.000 Okay.

01:35:35.000 So, and she was like, oh, wait, what?

01:35:38.000 Like, I have to get these for my baby at this point.

01:35:41.000 Like, so what can I, I know we're jumping around here.

01:35:44.000 We're doing a little rapid fire before we close here, but what is, what should moms be knowledgeable about when they're being told they need to get in utero vaccines, basically, like, but when they're when they're still pregnant as opposed to for their baby?

01:35:58.000 Well, I think you need to be aware of what's recommended and why.

01:36:00.000 Understand what protections you might get and what risks there might be.

01:36:03.000 And then you have to decide if you're comfortable with that.

01:36:05.000 Some people are, some people aren't.

01:36:06.000 But those are the recommendations.

01:36:08.000 So I think it's important to know what the benefits might be.

01:36:13.000 And then you have to have discussions with your doctor and decide if you want to do it.

01:36:15.000 You also need to know that it's not forced.

01:36:17.000 Nothing's forced.

01:36:18.000 You don't have to do it.

01:36:19.000 You could do it after.

01:36:20.000 You can give vaccines to your baby.

01:36:22.000 You could do no vaccines.

01:36:23.000 There's nothing that is forced.

01:36:24.000 And I don't think people realize that it's not a mandate.

01:36:26.000 They're just recommendations.

01:36:27.000 So take that same question to you.

01:36:31.000 Are you litigating any cases when it's like the baby's still in utero with these vaccines?

01:36:37.000 I mean, because that's actually sort of, you know, I mean, maybe the more pertinent question.

01:36:42.000 Are there risks that you've seen just as a litigator, as a lawyer on that front?

01:36:49.000 Well, there are risks from every vaccine.

01:36:49.000 Oh, yeah.

01:36:52.000 Again, can't sue the manufacturer, can't hold the company accountable.

01:36:56.000 If you're injured by a vaccine and you call our firm, we can file typically only a claim in the vaccine recompensation program where you don't get an Article III judge, you get a special master, you get no discovery of rights.

01:37:07.000 That's wild.

01:37:08.000 It's wild.

01:37:09.000 So can't you get paper discovery?

01:37:12.000 It shouldn't be.

01:37:13.000 I think it's totally unconstitutional, actually.

01:37:15.000 I do.

01:37:15.000 Yeah.

01:37:17.000 And, you know, pain and suffering is capped at 250.

01:37:21.000 Death is capped at 250.

01:37:23.000 And you fight against a DOJ with endless resources.

01:37:25.000 I mean, so yes, there are no vaccines that we don't litigate that cause all kinds of issues.

01:37:31.000 You've heard some of them earlier today, Guillain-Barre syndrome, transverse myelitis, which are your body, your body's own immune system attacking the nerves in your body can cause paralysis, cause other issues, a whole host of other things.

01:37:44.000 And then separate from that work on our, you know, I'll also point out that there are a series of studies that have looked at kids with no vaccines and kids that are vaccinated.

01:37:54.000 They do exist.

01:37:55.000 Now, most of them are smaller.

01:37:56.000 They're retrospective.

01:37:57.000 Some of them are a little larger, but they are consistent.

01:38:01.000 And there's a bunch of them.

01:38:03.000 I detail them.

01:38:05.000 And they show that the kids women and the kids who are vaccinated have multiple times the rate of all forms of chronic health issues.

01:38:15.000 The ones that have gone up, also the ones that are often disclosed by the manufacturers and the packaging, sir.

01:38:20.000 Interesting.

01:38:22.000 So wrapping this kind of conversation up is difficult because I think that I'm probably like a lot of parents out there where you just want somebody to tell you, do this, don't do this, don't do this, and do this.

01:38:37.000 And it's just such a complicated conversation because it sounds like we don't have the studies that most people would assume we have, that there are risks in everything, and we have to weigh those one by one, meaning the individual has to do their own work.

01:38:51.000 The parent has to do their own work.

01:38:54.000 Motivated parents are going to do that. 0.78

01:38:55.000 There's a lot of parents that are not maybe as educated.

01:38:58.000 Maybe they're not as informed.

01:39:00.000 Maybe they've even heard this kind of conversation before.

01:39:02.000 It's going to be hard.

01:39:03.000 It's just one of those topics where there just seems to be so much outstanding that we don't know yet.

01:39:10.000 And it seems like RFK is doing that.

01:39:13.000 If you had to give, if you had to grade the HHS under Bobby Kennedy Jr., are you happy with what you're seeing?

01:39:23.000 What could he do better?

01:39:24.000 And maybe that's a good place where you'd like to see this conversation go in the months ahead.

01:39:30.000 Yeah, I mean, overall, I'm very happy.

01:39:32.000 I think we're moving in an excellent direction in terms of opening up the floor to discussion and looking into some of these things.

01:39:39.000 I hope, I really hope that individuals who have been in the vaccine space for a long time, the mainstream doctors, the Paul Offits of the world, will be more involved.

01:39:48.000 I think that's really important.

01:39:49.000 I don't think things are going to change in any significant way until everybody comes to the table and sits together and has these discussions and have debates and look at what we do have and what we don't have and where we can go from here and are actually honest about that.

01:40:04.000 I think if we can have those discussions, if we can get everybody at the table, then everyone can realize it's not pro-vaccine people versus anti-vaccine people or HHS versus other people.

01:40:13.000 It's everyone against pharma.

01:40:15.000 We're all here for our kids.

01:40:15.000 We're all on the same team.

01:40:17.000 All I want is for kids to be healthy.

01:40:19.000 And I don't care if they get a thousand vaccines or zero vaccines as long as they're healthier.

01:40:23.000 And the only way we're going to get there is if we can talk about it, be honest about what we know, and then to keep doing the research and the studies and figure out whatever it is.

01:40:32.000 I don't know what the answer is.

01:40:33.000 And that's why when you ask me the question, should I do this or that vaccine?

01:40:36.000 I don't know the answer on long-term risk.

01:40:39.000 So I can't give you a definitive answer based on statistics.

01:40:41.000 I can only say this is what the CDC recommends.

01:40:43.000 So that's what's recommended.

01:40:45.000 And until we have that data, I don't think that you can honestly give a specific answer.

01:40:49.000 You can have an opinion.

01:40:50.000 You can believe vaccines are the worst thing ever and you should never do it.

01:40:53.000 You could believe that vaccines are the best thing ever and you should get them all.

01:40:56.000 But ultimately, we have to follow the data.

01:40:58.000 And I think we're missing that piece.

01:41:00.000 Well, and I just want to say because we've had like Cray-Moo, who's a, he calls himself a dadastician or whatever. 0.72

01:41:06.000 He's said on the show recently that he did not believe that autism rates were actually increasing.

01:41:11.000 It was actually the way we were measuring it or opening the aperture, diagnosing more different.

01:41:16.000 But you both believe that empirically the data says autism is increasing.

01:41:22.000 Definitely.

01:41:23.000 That is what the stat, that is what the studies show.

01:41:26.000 Better diagnosis accounts for some of it, but there is a real increase.

01:41:30.000 I don't see how anybody else is.

01:41:31.000 I think both things are true, but there's a real increase and a massive increase.

01:41:35.000 And we've got to find out why, which is what Bobby's doing at HHS.

01:41:39.000 He's trying to determine.

01:41:41.000 I mean, he said that was, he was trying to get to the bottom of why the increase was happening.

01:41:44.000 And yeah, which that question bleeds into the first one I asked.

01:41:49.000 How is the HHS under RFK?

01:41:51.000 Oh, I think Secretary Kennedy is doing, I think he's doing, you know, he's working and fighting every day to improve things.

01:42:02.000 He's dealing with 65 over 65,000 career employees below him, you know, from a decade of litigating with those folks.

01:42:11.000 The closer are to the vaccine issue, the more zealous they are.

01:42:14.000 You know, I know that from millions of internal emails we've gotten through FOIA requests.

01:42:18.000 So he's still got those folks to deal with.

01:42:20.000 And then, of course, he's still above him as the White House, who's, you know, they're supportive.

01:42:25.000 They're supportive, but there's different personalities in the White House.

01:42:27.000 It's not one person.

01:42:28.000 It's a lot of people.

01:42:29.000 People fail to understand that sometimes.

01:42:30.000 Yeah.

01:42:32.000 So he's, you know, he's, and he doesn't get to pick all the people at HHS, even the political appointees, as you know, right?

01:42:39.000 They got to go through PPO.

01:42:40.000 And, you know, the White House picks them.

01:42:42.000 And there's nothing.

01:42:43.000 Yeah, different considerations for each appointment.

01:42:45.000 There's different favors you might have to, you know, exactly.

01:42:48.000 Exactly.

01:42:50.000 Complicated business.

01:42:51.000 So within, within, you know, so he is fighting too.

01:42:53.000 I mean, nobody, nobody that I know has given up more than Secretary Kennedy to fight on this issue or fight on, frankly, any issue.

01:43:03.000 I mean, listen, he was a Kennedy.

01:43:05.000 He was the darling.

01:43:05.000 He was on the front page of magazines.

01:43:07.000 He had a million positions, all paying him for basically sitting around and just using his name.

01:43:12.000 And when he saw kids injured from these products, he just didn't let it go.

01:43:17.000 No matter how much they beat him.

01:43:19.000 To this day, he won't let it go because he has seen what I've seen.

01:43:22.000 You know, he knows the injuries that it can cause.

01:43:26.000 I will also just add one more point, which is that I know you're like, oh, parents have to go and do their own research.

01:43:34.000 Unfortunately, with vaccines, they do because, unlike every other product, the market self-corrects.

01:43:40.000 The market would take care of eliminating products that aren't safe, that would force companies would nationally want to replace them.

01:43:48.000 But they don't self-correct with this product.

01:43:50.000 It is truly unique.

01:43:52.000 I agree with you.

01:43:53.000 We're very busy.

01:43:55.000 Everybody's busy.

01:43:56.000 With these products, though, unfortunately, you don't have the industry's not, can't be held accountable in the same way in any way, almost.

01:44:03.000 And the government, for the most part, and Bobby's trying to work on this, is not really there defending the consumer.

01:44:12.000 They're fighting the consumers.

01:44:13.000 So it's a unique space.

01:44:15.000 I think it's a fascinating conversation.

01:44:17.000 Again, I just want to make sure we get all of our plugs here right.

01:44:21.000 So, Dr. Joel Gator Warsh, you go by Gator because that's your social media.

01:44:25.000 Where'd that name come from?

01:44:27.000 My wife's last name is Intelligator. 1.00

01:44:28.000 So Dr. Gator Warsh, MD, author of Between a Shot and a Hard Place.

01:44:35.000 You can throw the artwork up.

01:44:37.000 And you can find him on X and IG at Dr. Joel Gator.

01:44:40.000 And then Aaron Siri, civil rights attorney, managing partner of Siri in Glimstad, right?

01:44:46.000 LLP, SiriLLP.com.

01:44:49.000 And he's the author of Vaccines, Amen.

01:44:53.000 Really fascinating conversation.

01:44:56.000 And we could go on and on, but I think we've covered a lot of ground here.

01:45:00.000 And so I just want to thank you both for making the time and just coming to this conversation with good faith.

01:45:06.000 And hopefully we can expand the circle and have some of these conversations that we want to have as well.

01:45:11.000 And you guys can come back for that.

01:45:13.000 So we'll do our best to bring some of those voices into the next conversation.

01:45:17.000 It'd be great if you could bring some vaccinologists.

01:45:19.000 Bring Dr. Offit. 0.95

01:45:20.000 Yeah, with you in the room, maybe not.

01:45:22.000 I don't know how likely we're going to be to get them on.

01:45:25.000 But thank you guys so much.

01:45:27.000 Thank you.

01:45:27.000 Great job, Riley, as well.

01:45:29.000 Until next time, we'll see you soon.

The Charlie Kirk Show - January 17, 2026

Vaccines: What Should A New Parent Do?

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