In this episode, Dr. Joel Gator Warsh and Aaron Siri join us to discuss the controversial topic of childhood vaccines and autism. Dr. Warsh is the author of Between a Shot and a Hard Place and author of the new book, Vaccines: A Hard Place. Aaron Siri is a civil rights attorney and the Managing Partner of Siri and Gilmstad LLP and is author of VACCINES, Amen. They also discuss the new recommendations from the CDC regarding the use of the Hep B vaccine.
00:00:56.000The Charlie Kirk Show is proudly sponsored by Preserve Gold, the leading gold and silver experts and the only precious metals company I recommend to my family, friends, and viewers.
00:01:09.000Hey, everybody, welcome to a very special episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.
00:01:13.000We're going to have a long-form discussion about some changes that are happening at the CDC, conversations that are continuing to evolve when it comes to vaccines and autism, about the Hep B shot, and getting deep into questions that we receive here at the Charlie Kirk Show from moms all around the country wanting to know how they should be addressing and thinking about the issues that come up when they have their own children, when they're pregnant.
00:01:39.000There's so much here and so much practical discussions that we need to have for you out there in the audience that we wanted to bring in two experts of this area.
00:01:54.000And that's what this conversation is designed to do: to bring clarity in a sea of confusion where there's still a lot of questions.
00:02:01.000And to help us navigate this very important topic, is Dr. Joel Gator Warsh, his MD and author of a new book, Between a Shot and a Hard Place, right here.
00:02:15.000You can find him on X and Instagram at Dr. JoelGator.
00:03:58.000I think it's a little easier to wrap our brains around and there's probably fewer questions, but it's very, very important.
00:04:05.000And so that'll be kind of our on-ramp into this larger vaccine discussion.
00:04:09.000So on December 5th, the CDC's Advisory Committee on Immunization, so ACIP or ACIP, voted 8 to 3 to drop the long-standing universal recommendation that every newborn receive hepatitis B vaccines.
00:04:23.000I will tell you, I have three small kids.
00:04:26.000When they start, when you have a baby in the hospital and they just start shooting things into the baby and they're putting, you know, you're like, you don't even, many parents are probably like me, especially with our first, where you had no idea that was even going to happen.
00:04:39.000And you're wondering, like, it must be necessary they're doing this.
00:04:42.000So when it comes to Hep B, let's explain the logic originally.
00:04:56.000What was the original rationale for that and why the change?
00:05:00.000So originally when the hepatitis B vaccine was brought out, it was more for high-risk groups because the main way that you would get it would be like an STD through sexual contact or through drug use.
00:05:10.000But there were still tens of thousands of cases every year.
00:05:13.000And so they decided that they would recommend that to all babies in the first day of life to get the hepatitis B to decrease those cases near down to zero.
00:05:23.000And the reality is it did work pretty well.
00:05:25.000I mean, we did see a big decrease in the hepatitis B disease, but that is still mainly coming from individuals who had hepatitis B as mom, passing it on to the baby.
00:05:38.000It's still extremely rare for a baby who's born to a hepatitis B negative mother to get hepatitis B. Is it possible?
00:05:45.000Yes, it is possible that a test could be wrong, that you could get hepatitis B after you do the testing, or somebody could come by and bleed on your baby.
00:05:57.000We're talking like one in a million to one in seven million by best guesses.
00:06:01.000And so when you're talking about the medical community, a lot of times you only hear about benefits.
00:06:07.000And a lot of doctors are saying, well, we want to make sure every single baby gets hepatitis B vaccine so that no babies ever get it.
00:06:13.000And the reality is, I don't want any baby to get hepatitis B or any infection at all.
00:06:17.000But you have to weigh the risks versus the benefits.
00:06:20.000And there are risks to any intervention that we do, any medication and any vaccine.
00:06:25.000And we're not acknowledging that in the medical community.
00:06:27.000And I think for something that's so rare, let's say it's one in a million, you have to ask, giving this vaccine to 3 million kids that don't necessarily need it to protect one kid, is that worth it?
00:06:41.000And then you're talking about the known risks and the unknown risks.
00:06:44.000And a lot of other countries have looked at that calculation and said, you know what, we're going to only recommend it to high-risk babies.
00:06:51.000And so what we decided, what ASIP decided was that they are going to go to this high-risk group decision where you're not necessarily going to recommend it for every baby.
00:07:00.000If you are in that high-risk group, you could, you do it.
00:07:02.000If you want to do it, you can still do it.
00:07:04.000But now it's a shared clinical decision-making versus an explicit recommendation.
00:07:12.000And now they're removing that recommendation in place of making it shared clinical decision making.
00:07:16.000So you're saying that basically this new advisory or this new decision 8-3, which remember, and you were educating me on this, and I remember the story, is that, you know, RFK came in.
00:07:28.000He basically removed the 17 members of ASIP, right?
00:07:33.000I don't know what you would call them, the voting.
00:07:37.000And now they haven't replaced all of them yet.
00:07:40.000But this is an 8-3 vote to drop this universal recommendation.
00:07:45.000And you're, I guess, you were discussing this before we took on the show here.
00:07:52.000But you were saying that some of the risks are fever, Other known risks that maybe would be potentially worse than, I guess I wouldn't say worse, but you have to know the risk, right?
00:08:06.000This is this is an informed consent idea.
00:08:37.000But to me, you have to take that into account when you're saying that you're protecting only one out of a million or one out of three million kids for something that you're giving to all of these kids.
00:08:46.000So I don't think it's unreasonable to have those discussions.
00:09:45.000Just little things I'm picking up as the layman here, where technically it wasn't mandated to get the HEP B shot, but I don't feel like, and I'm trying to remember back to my own experience.
00:09:56.000I don't remember, and now my kids were born in California, so maybe it's different.
00:10:47.000So, including one that was adjudicated not long ago in something called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, which is the federal program where you can get compensation if you're injured by a vaccine.
00:10:56.000And there was a baby that was adjudicated as having died from the Hep B shot on the first day of life.
00:11:03.000Also, another just quick data point, I'll go to the civil rights question: is the very first hepatitis B vaccine was in 1981.
00:11:09.000It was based, it was actually made using the plasma, the blood, of those who are chronic hepatitis B carriers.
00:11:16.000There were under 300 deaths in America from hepatitis B in 1980.
00:11:20.000We are now well over 1,500 deaths a year on hepatitis B.
00:11:24.000Okay, so we haven't actually gone down in mortality, which is an interesting data point.
00:11:28.000Do you know what's causing that increase?
00:11:32.000But it's interesting because they always talk about, well, you know, we have to reduce, whenever mortality goes down, they immediately attribute it to the vaccine.
00:11:40.000But when mortality goes up, nobody wants to look.
00:11:47.000On the civil rights side of things, there's absolutely a civil rights component.
00:11:52.000Number one, we have endless cases where parents have provided written notice to the hospital that they do not want the hepatitis B vaccine as part of their birthing program in writing, signed, and the hospital does it anyway.
00:12:06.000We probably have about over 100 clients like that at the firm right now.
00:12:34.000We get lots of calls from parents who are in, they've just given birth, they're in the happiest moment of their lives, and they've decided they don't want the shot.
00:12:42.000And the hospital is telling them if they don't get it, they're going to call CPS on them.
00:13:17.000It could be anybody that they get a bad feeling about the situation and then they can call for whatever reason.
00:13:21.000Yeah, it just, it strikes me that I do not have a clear memory.
00:13:26.000And now with babies two and three, so I've got three, three kids.
00:13:30.000The second and the third, I remember being very much more like queued in.
00:13:33.000And I was, I was aware of a lot more because I had been through it once before, but especially on that on our oldest, I can't remember even being given the option.
00:14:20.000If you don't have a science background, you don't do your research on your own.
00:14:23.000Even if you do research on your own, if you don't understand how to read and interpret a clinical study, you may not know what's right and what's wrong or what you're being told.
00:15:09.000You're already stressed because you're about to have a baby, let alone going in and not knowing what you don't know because you don't know what you don't know.
00:15:17.000One of the things was making sure that dad is always with baby because you're doing your own thing.
00:15:25.000But if that doctor takes that baby out, there's a lot of parents that are concerned that my birth plan may be this, but I don't 100% trust the establishment.
00:15:34.000I don't 100% trust the doctors or the hospital that they're not going to give my kid something, even though I have it in writing and I've stated that I don't want this.
00:15:42.000I never left my kids' side, not for a second.
00:15:44.000My husband was with our baby from day one.
00:15:47.000Never for a second because they make mistakes and they have their, like you said, that's the default, right?
00:16:15.000We have, like I said, we have probably about a hundred clients literally right now as we sit here where my law firm is handling their cases right now.
00:16:24.000So it happens all the time because, you know, and that's part of the issue with the routine recommendation from ACIP.
00:16:31.000Because when it's viewed as routine, what does that mean?
00:16:34.000That means that the medical community views it as everybody should get it.
00:16:38.000And, you know, your right to inform consent sometimes just goes out the window, even apparently when you have it in writing and say so.
00:16:44.000I just, for the audience's sake, ASIP stands for Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices.
00:16:50.000Okay, so it's a really powerful committee.
00:16:55.000And again, RFK Jr., famously, now notoriously, whatever you want to look at it, removed the 17 sitting members of that and has been replacing them.
00:17:05.000But you said before we came on the air, so I just want to catch our audience up, that he's actually, the people that have been appointed to this board are pretty, they're across the spectrum, ideologically, when it comes to this stuff.
00:17:38.000I mean, there are many people that are saying that he shouldn't be allowed to be there because he sues and makes money off of vaccines, lawsuits.
00:17:45.000And that doesn't make any sense to me as a physician.
00:17:47.000It just makes no logical sense whatsoever.
00:18:19.000And so I was invited to speak about the development of the childhood schedule.
00:18:23.000And Senator Cassidy tweeted out that I'm, you know, something about how I shouldn't have been invited because I make my living is what he wrote, suing vaccine makers.
00:18:35.000So I tweeted back and I said, it's ironic you write that because actually I can't make my living suing vaccine makers because they have immunity.
00:18:44.000Childhood vaccines are the only product in America, literally the only one.
00:18:48.000As four of us sitting here in this room, look around this room.
00:18:51.000We're surrounded by thousands of manufactured products.
00:18:53.000On your way into this room, okay, for every one of them, you could sue the company on the basis that had they made that product safer, you or your child would not have died or gotten seriously injured.
00:20:11.000Is there something we're comfortable recommending?
00:20:14.000Their recommendation now is two months or later, which generally is what kids were doing anyways.
00:20:18.000If they didn't get the vaccine at birth, they would get it at two months, four months, and six months, or any time after that.
00:20:23.000Okay, and generally speaking, that is much safer when it comes to fevers, encephalitis.
00:20:31.000I mean, it's definitely safer if you get a fever that you're older, but whether that makes the vaccine safer or not, that's debatable.
00:20:37.000So that's something that should be studied.
00:20:39.000But we haven't studied those differences to see whether it is safer.
00:20:42.000And the manufacturer's disclosure about encephalitis and cephalopathy don't distinguish between age.
00:20:47.000And most of the safety research, I mean, the original safety research, which is really interesting and might get us a little off topic, but was four to five days of safety research, which is great.
00:21:08.000So question might be: don't vaccines at some point lose their broader appeal or their broader, I guess, upside if we don't have universal vaccination of some of these diseases.
00:21:21.000You have to go vaccine by vaccine on each of these because for many of the vaccines, and this is something that you don't realize unless you really look into it or think about it, is that most of them don't protect the community.
00:22:10.000I mean, I'll just build on what the doctor said, which is the clinical trial relied upon to license.
00:22:16.000There are two standalone hepatitis B vaccines.
00:22:19.000One was licensed in 86.1 and 89, Recommend Vacc HB, Index B. Recommend Vax HB was licensed based on a clinical trial, and this is what the doctor was talking about.
00:22:28.000When a clinical trial that monitored children for five days for safety after injection.
00:23:40.000So that's how they make their decisions.
00:23:42.000Now, normally, the interest to make money is aligned with safety.
00:23:45.000Because if you put out a product that's not safe, you lose money.
00:23:48.000And so, but with vaccines, it's the only one that, as I noted, has that immunity I talked about earlier.
00:23:54.000So, the financial entrance has been inverted, okay?
00:23:58.000Which is why for vaccine trials, you will often see days or weeks of safety review, never a placebo control for any of the routine-injected vaccines, and they're often underpowered, meaning not enough kids.
00:24:08.000So, to answer, it was a long way to answer your question.
00:24:10.000But to answer your question, FDA regulates these trials, okay, but it's the companies that conduct them.
00:24:18.000Why would the FDA accept the trial that short?
00:24:21.000That's because there's a drug division, there's a vaccine division, and if you've interacted with the vaccine division, they are believers in these products.
00:24:32.000Even during RFK's tenure so far, has it changed?
00:24:38.000Vinay Prasad, who is the head of CEBR, which has the vaccine division at the FDA, you saw that memo he released that was leaked where he talked about the 10 kids dying.
00:24:50.000I have not read it, but he is trying to reform.
00:24:52.000He is facing mass dissent and opposition.
00:24:57.000Look, if you sat in FDA for the last few decades, anybody in there, and you licensed these vaccines based on these kinds of clinical trials that in no way could have affirmed safety, you must have incredible cognitive dissonance when faced with those without reality.
00:25:40.000It just means if you're going to put a new vaccine on the schedule, if you're going to give a new vaccine to my baby, I want to know that it's been studied in thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of kids against an inert placebo, followed forward and looked at to see what the safety profile is.
00:26:57.000Call 800-875-0425 or visit MyPillow today and use promo code Kirk.
00:27:05.000Yeah, so let me just tell you how I'm hearing this as the layman in this conversation, even more so than Riley.
00:27:12.000I'm hearing, unless you are in a very, you know, high-risk group, it doesn't sound to me like this is something that I would be inclined or rushing to give my child at least immediately.
00:27:25.000Maybe you could talk about two months, six months, first year, maybe.
00:27:30.000But that's basically where I'm landing on this, hearing the intel.
00:27:34.000Now, I just want to make sure that everybody knows we invited Dr. Paul Offutt to this discussion, and Riley reached out kindly, and it was, I would say, not a welcome invite.
00:27:49.000Was concerned that we were going to be confusing the audience and maybe causing more vaccine hesitancy or anti-vax sentiment.
00:27:58.000But we did want to get his perspective, and he is, I would say, much more of an adherent to the medical establishment's view.
00:28:11.000I think that's safe to say, the wider medical establishment's view about vaccine efficacy and the need for vaccine.
00:28:16.000So, we did want him to be on this conversation.
00:28:19.000But regardless, I don't think you would not describe yourself as anti-vax, would you?
00:28:24.000I mean, look, all I can use is a dictionary for the use of words, okay?
00:28:29.000And under Webster's dictionary, it defines anti-vax as somebody who opposes mandating one or more vaccines or receiving one or more.
00:28:36.000So, under that definition, most of the country is anti-vax because a majority oppose mandating COVID vaccine, flu shots, and some of the other ones and so forth.
00:28:44.000So, you know, I mean, I guess it matters what definition you're using, whether or not somebody's anti-vax.
00:29:42.000So if you're going to, for example, really think about hepatitis B and you're trying to decide whether to take it, here's the way I would do it.
00:29:48.000If a baby's born to a non-Hep B positive mother, I would say, okay, how many the needed number needed to treat, how many babies of non-hepatitis B vaccinated mothers do you need to inject, but to prevent one case of chronic hep B?
00:30:32.000There are data that reflect that the risk in that instance might be greater than the benefit.
00:30:40.000Now, I don't make medical decisions for other.
00:30:42.000I mean, everybody should make their own choices.
00:30:44.000At the end of the day, really, my goal is just to make sure everybody has the right and the ability to do that as a civil individual rights, you know, as an attorney.
00:31:01.000And I think this is a question that a lot of people have, is why this forceful sort of, you know, this mandate culture when it comes to vaccines.
00:31:12.000And I think Blake on our team, who tends to be a little contrarian in almost everything, but it is well made, this sort of community immunity idea that we want to get these diseases completely out of the population, whether that's polio, which is probably the most famous example, smallpox.
00:31:28.000We talked about before we started rolling here.
00:31:31.000And you had some nuance with smallpox, but polio, for example, right?
00:32:13.000I think measles is probably the most difficult of the vaccines in terms of that kind of discussion because we know that measles is extremely contagious and kids can get sick.
00:32:21.000And we also know that vaccine works very well.
00:32:23.000And you do get some community immunity if you vaccinate enough people.
00:32:27.000So I think that of all the diseases, measles is probably the one where that discussion makes the most sense.
00:32:32.000Like, I don't know which questions are dumb here or not.
00:32:35.000You guys are literally in the thick of these discussions.
00:32:39.000And so I feel, you know, please forgive my insecurity about some of this question, but I have to believe if I'm having some of these questions that like our audience is having the same ones.
00:32:48.000So my mom did like a measles party when she was like where they literally tried to just get everybody sick so that they would have the immunity and they'd get it done with.
00:34:55.000I mean, to answer your initial question, which from, and I will build upon what was just said with regards to getting measles versus getting the vaccine.
00:37:03.000Those that have had measles, studies have shown, have far less deaths from cardiovascular disease, cancers, and other issues.
00:37:09.000A prospective 100,000-person study in Japan, meaning forward-looking for 22 years, that tracked 100,000 people in Japan for 22 years, found, so this was a, you know, this was a very serious study by an institution, by an institution there, and, you know, by the government of Japan and major university there.
00:37:29.000And what it found is that those that had had measles and mumps had a naturally.
00:37:51.000And their whole, this person would proudly describe themselves as anti-vax, like very proud.
00:37:58.000And the rationale for this person was that when you get diseases naturally and your body overcomes them, that you have a stronger immunity for everything.
00:38:08.000And this person's perspective on it, and I'll probably throw it to you.
00:38:13.000Either of you can answer this actually, was that it wasn't just cardiovascular.
00:38:17.000It wasn't just against that same disease in the future.
00:38:30.000If you got a natural immunity, you got COVID and then you overcame it.
00:38:34.000It didn't mean that you weren't going to get it in the future, but perhaps your body, I mean, I got the OG COVID in 2020, and I think I got it one more time.
00:39:01.000I just, I'm throwing it out there because I bet a lot of people have heard this.
00:39:04.000Yeah, I mean, there are different perspectives on it.
00:39:05.000I think, you know, one of the main things to consider, the point of a vaccine theoretically would be to protect you from getting the disease, to protect you from dying or getting very sick from a disease.
00:39:14.000So I think we have to keep that in mind because the only people that survive are the ones that can have this protection.
00:40:08.000If you go back to there's that famous episode of the Brady Bunch where they all just get measles and it's like a laugh track, you know, and it's just like culturally, we have gone very far from like, oh, the housekeeper gets measles and everybody laughs about it and she's, you know, she's got red bumps or whatever.
00:40:28.000To now we're like, kids are going to die.
00:41:08.000Something about Samoa doesn't make a lot of sense because one in 450,000 Americans died of measles before there was a vaccine.
00:41:14.000It came out to of those infected, about one in 10,000.
00:41:17.000The numbers in Samoa just don't match any data from historically.
00:41:22.000I don't know exactly what happened there, but it doesn't match any of the actual data, real-world data that exists in the United States from any time period.
00:42:29.000Well, okay, so they often do them in Denmark.
00:42:32.000They say the reason they I'll tell you what they say, and I'll tell you my personal view.
00:42:37.000So they say they do them in Denmark because Denmark has a centralized medical care system with robust tracking of vaccination and other metrics.
00:42:46.000And so they say they can do these studies there more readily on vaccines and vaccine safety.
00:42:54.000I would say the other side of it is they only have a tiny vaccine schedule compared to the U.S.
00:43:01.000So there's nine vaccines that are not on their schedule that are on the U.S. schedule.
00:43:06.000So kind of a better place to study vaccine safety when you're giving nine less, I'm not talking shots.
00:43:12.000I'm talking nine less different vaccines.
00:43:13.000I could tell you the whole Danish schedule super easy.
00:43:16.000At 3, 5, and 12 months, you get one hexavalent, which is basically DTP HIB, IPV, and one other.
00:43:34.000But if you're correlating that to kids here in the U.S., that is not accurate.
00:43:40.000It's not accurate, but that's what they, like, you saw that recent aluminum study they came out with that said aluminum adjuvants are safe and they studied them in Denmark.
00:43:47.000Did you, I don't know if you said that.
00:45:25.000And now you have, we've talked a lot about this.
00:45:29.000And I think what Children's Defense Fund has made a big thing about this over the years is how I learned about it is the 1980s schedule versus our current vaccine schedule.
00:45:45.000Is there an industrialized country that you look to and say they basically do the childhood vaccine schedule in a way that you look up to, that you see as the gold standard?
00:47:36.000And every one of those products was except for one, was developed and licensed by a company, knowing they would virtually never have to pay for the kids that they kill or injure with that product.
00:47:54.000MMR was the focus of a lot of controversy, maybe rightly or wrongly, but you know, there were films that came out about this, how it used to be separated into individual shots.
00:48:09.000Then it got grouped together, apparently, long time ago.
00:48:12.000People are saying that they're making you get it too young.
00:48:54.000So for me, when I was in training and I went to a great program, very Western, the only thing that I was ever taught about vaccines and when it comes to autism was it's been debunked.
00:49:16.000I would say the most shocking thing I've ever seen in my life is when you go look at the research that actually exists on vaccines and autism and you realize what is and isn't there.
00:49:25.000When I was doing the research for my book, what I thought I was going to do, I was trying to write a balanced book as best as possible.
00:49:31.000And I thought what I was going to find, because I'm in the integrative space, I'm aware of some of the research on maybe not always the best research, but there were studies out there that said, oh, maybe vaccines are related to autism, or there were people that have said that.
00:49:44.000And so I thought what I was going to find was all this amazing research that said, here are the amazing studies, vaccinated versus unvaccinated.
00:49:52.000We have tons of studies that show vaccines don't cause autism.
00:52:53.000And then they added that line in yellow.
00:52:55.000Vaccines do not cause autism is not an evidence-based claim.
00:53:00.000This is a big old shot across the bow to the medical establishment on this issue.
00:53:07.000And I'm sure there is massive amounts of debate within your guys' communities, the medical community and the legal community on this topic, because this is kind of what I guess, you know, some people feared would happen with an RFK, HHS, right?
00:53:50.000First of all, the very first time that the question of whether vaccines and autism should be studied was in the 1986 Act, that federal law.
00:54:42.000Again, they were commissioned by the CDC, the Institute of Medicine, and HERSA, which is an agency in HHS that fights vaccine injury claims.
00:54:51.000Again, to study whether, is there any science to show pertussis vaccines don't cause autism?
00:54:55.000And again, they could not find any study to support that question.
00:54:59.000When IOM published its report in 2012, they found one study.
00:55:03.000They found one study that showed actually there was an association, but they threw it out because it said it didn't have an unvaccinated group and it was based on their data.
00:55:18.000On behalf of ICANN, that nonprofit I mentioned earlier, I sued the CDC for the studies that rely upon to support that the vaccines given in the first six months of life, five different vaccines, three shots each, HEPI, HIB, DTAP, IPV, and PCV.
00:55:39.000So each of those are given three injections each, 15 injections.
00:55:56.000So if you're going to say vaccines don't cause autism, you better rule out those vaccines don't cause autism in the first six months of life because they can diagnose autism before they give the MMR, which doesn't get given until no earlier than 12 months of age.
00:56:08.000Except for if you're traveling abroad, maybe they'll give it to you earlier, but almost never, okay?
00:56:37.000Now, maybe the CDC thinks we can't read, I don't know.
00:56:40.000But I read them and I called back the DOJ attorney and I said, hey, I read your list.
00:56:45.000I said, are you sure your client, the CDC, wants to enter into a settlement saying these are the 20 studies you rely upon to claim that the vaccines given in the first six months don't cause autism?
00:56:59.000I said, because 19 of these studies have nothing to do with any of those vaccines.
00:57:04.000They're almost all MMR vaccine studies, which are irrelevant, right?
00:57:07.000Because you're comparing basically kids who get 17 shots with 18 shots.
00:57:14.000If you shoot 17 shots of whiskey and 18 shots of whiskey and you're drunk, that doesn't mean anything both ways.
00:57:20.000And also, all the MMR studies have health user bias because the kids who get injured in the first six months from vaccines, they stop getting vaccinated.
00:57:34.000And I said, the 20th one on your list is the 2012 IOM report I just told you about that said the Institute of Medicine itself said, we can't find any study showing DTAP does not cause autism and one that showed an association.
00:57:47.000I said, so your whole list literally only has one study and it showed an association.
00:57:59.000Federal judge entered as a court order.
00:58:02.000I mean, I don't know where else to turn, meaning that if you know, they were held with gun to their head in federal court and they don't have the study.
00:58:10.000So the point is, so when that webpage is updated, yes, I completely agree.
00:58:21.000So one of the things that's most interesting in the vaccine space when it comes to autism, and you can hear it when he deposes Dr. Edwards, which is one of the most interesting things you can listen to if you want to listen to vaccines and autism, is you realize that basically all doctors are saying that vaccines don't cause autism because it hasn't been proven to cause autism.
00:58:41.000So it's this weird negative because it hasn't been studied.
00:58:45.000So therefore, if it hasn't been found to cause or not cause autism, they can say, oh, it's not proven to cause autism.
00:59:31.000According to the CDC data, there's around at least 700, around 650,000 kids in America today that are unvaccinated, according to CDC's own data.
00:59:49.000You'd be surprised how many kids aren't vaccinated.
00:59:51.000And by the way, the last person to do that study is the federal government, because remember I said earlier you can't sue vaccine manufacturers, but if you're injured by a vaccine, and I've got over a dozen, I've got a lot of people in my firm that do this work.
01:00:03.000You can bring a claim for vaccine injury.
01:00:05.000You just bring it against the Secretary of HHS.
01:00:08.000You bring it against the federal government.
01:00:10.000It's the only, and they fight you with DOJ attorneys.
01:00:12.000It's the only product I know of in America where the government defends the interests of the industry against the injured consumer.
01:01:22.000When it comes to vaccines, the very same department, the Department of Health and Human Services, is responsible for promoting vaccines statutorily, has to promote them and has to defend them against any claims of injury, right?
01:01:46.000Don't do the study or don't do the study well.
01:01:51.000The federal health authorities are completely conflicted.
01:01:54.000Well, and isn't there sort of this idea of institutional capture as well, right?
01:01:57.000Where you've got, you know, board members from, let's just say, Pfizer that ends up, you know, inside the government.
01:02:03.000You mean like Julie Gerberting was the head of the CDC for a decade during Merck's most controversial controversies around MMR vaccine and Gardasil vaccine and some of its other products and then went to head their vaccine division and has made millions of dollars?
01:02:36.000So I got the pro and I got, you know, no, so, but this, this is what you do.
01:02:41.000You, you snuff out these inconsistencies or, you know, let's just say conflicts of interest or this presented as a religion and you're like, this is not a religion.
01:02:52.000This is a fact-based, evidence-based area, and we're not dealing with it that way.
01:02:58.000Look, in a religion, people know they're in a religion.
01:03:01.000When you go to church, you go to your house of worship, you believe, and you know you're taking a leap of faith to answer the unanswerables.
01:04:41.000Point is that there are no studies showing that it does cause autism, except one study by two well-known anti-vaccination figures, Geyer and Geyer, who have no legitimacy whatsoever.
01:05:16.000This is what you were kind of talking about before, though.
01:05:19.000Well, the clip, if you had the clip, what the clip would show is this.
01:05:25.000He eventually concedes there are no studies that show DTAP doesn't cause autism, okay?
01:05:30.000He also, and he says, well, and I say, but you have done studies and you claim that do support the MMR vaccine doesn't cause autism, right?
01:05:58.000But there are no studies that show that D-Tap doesn't cause autism.
01:06:02.000And he said, and he had to eventually concede that there are not because the IOM said they're not.
01:06:07.000And so I said to him, I said, Dr. Plotin, shouldn't you wait until you do, until you have the studies that show that D-Tap doesn't cause autism before you tell a parent that vaccines don't cause autism?
01:06:23.000No, because I have to take into account the health of the child.
01:06:26.000And then I said, so for that reason, you're willing to tell a parent that vaccines don't cause autism, even though the science isn't there to support it.
01:06:34.000Okay, so what he is saying, he has admitted what the CDC webpage now admits, which is we told people vaccines don't cause autism to avoid vaccine hesitancy, even we didn't have the studies to support it.
01:06:48.000Okay, so that takes us in some ways to our.
01:07:07.000In the expert disclosures for this case, it asserts that, among other things, you will testify that, quote, the issue of whether vaccines cause autism has been thoroughly researched and rejected, end quote.
01:07:20.000It's your testimony that MMR vaccine cannot cause autism.
01:07:24.000It's your testimony that HEP B vaccine cannot cause autism.
01:08:42.000That's not the way we've done our family.
01:08:45.000I would just say that this is infuriating because there has been so much mudslinging and name-calling.
01:08:52.000And like, you're an anti-I mean, listen, there was a whole era when Charlie was fighting this COVID mandate where he started getting put like Charlie Kirk, anti-vaxxer, Charlie Kirk, like in the media clippings because he was just like, I don't, this feels really wrong to me, bodily autonomy, this whole argument.
01:09:10.000And so we got smeared as anti-vaxxers on the show, which was like not true, first of all.
01:09:16.000But second of all, you know, we were simply asking a question we had never asked before.
01:09:21.000We had never even talked about it as a team, as a show.
01:09:24.000It was just like, hey, they're forcing this thing that you just came up with.
01:09:27.000Like, do we, there's, I know you haven't done the long-term studies about it because we just got it, right?
01:09:32.000And so you start asking all these new questions.
01:09:35.000Up until that point, I think most people in the country were like, yeah, I'm like pro-vaccine.
01:09:40.000You know, it saved countless lives, right?
01:09:42.000So all of a sudden, COVID unleashes this new wave of question asking because we saw how we were dealt with in this.
01:09:50.000And then, but again, I wasn't even questioning the schedule.
01:09:54.000I wasn't questioning what I thought was, you know, essentially established science, right?
01:09:58.000And then to hear lead vaccinologists in the world going like, I mean, we didn't hear it, but you filled me in on the second half of the clip, which is the most important clip, studio.
01:10:09.000But to hear that the answer was no, We don't have science.
01:10:13.000We don't have science and we don't have the studies.
01:10:15.000It actually, to your point, now I'm very happy that RFK's HHS and the CDC under him has updated the language saying, let me get it specifically here because I want to make sure I have the exact wording, right?
01:10:31.000Vaccines do not cause autism is not an evidence-based claim.
01:10:35.000And it appears unless you're scientific studies have not ruled out the possibility that infant vaccines contribute to the development of autism.
01:11:02.000And I'm sure you're just in the middle of this kind of, and you're, is it fair to say that your role in this, because you've been suing vaccine makers and I mean, you must be.
01:12:27.000When people think of doctors, they think, oh, the doctors, you know, they all know about vaccines, or the pediatricians at least know, or the immunologists know, or the infectious disease doctors know.
01:12:35.000They're taking their cues from these people.
01:13:32.000I want to say, okay, here's what the research is.
01:13:35.000Why do you think that vaccines can't cause?
01:13:38.000I would love to know what they would say if they were questioned.
01:13:40.000They never get asked those questions because they only go on the things where they get the softball questions where they can say the pre-answered questions.
01:13:46.000Well, except for deposition when they have vaccines.
01:14:28.000And then on top of that, you have the schools, even private Christian schools in California, they're like bound by the state as well, by the state schedule.
01:14:38.000It's a brand new year and a brand new opportunity to change the world for the better.
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01:16:47.000But there is a difference because the vaccinologists are the ones that are really, you know, they're the ones that the CDC, everybody else relies upon.
01:16:55.000You know, when I depose pediatricians, infectious disease doctors, or immunologists, they don't know almost anything about vaccines in my experience.
01:17:03.000The ones who know, who know, you know, are the vaccinologists, right?
01:17:08.000Dr. Warsh knows more about vaccines than virtually than any pediatrician immunologist or infectious doctor or vaccine that I've encountered.
01:17:46.000One of the main things I've ever heard from, you know, the benefit of vaccines is that you could immunize a whole population and therefore nobody dies, right?
01:17:58.000But I love that you're saying at least if I, because my experience is I got looked at like I was a crazy person, I feel like I wouldn't be looked at like that in your office and you would give me a straight strategy and a plan of attack to do it the way I was comfortable.
01:18:10.000If there was a magic pill and you could give that magic pill to your kids and they would never get sick and there would be no consequences, everybody would line up for that.
01:21:08.000Here's my little bit longer answer to that.
01:21:12.000The answer is that yes, we should have freedom.
01:21:15.000You know, this country was founded as a rebellion against the idea that there's some central authority, some central government, a king, a dictator, whatever it was, that should make the decisions for you.
01:21:27.000It was bounded on the idea that we should all have individual and civil rights, so that those are an enabler rights given to us by our maker.
01:21:34.000And to be sure, freedoms come with dangers.
01:21:37.000Letting people have freedom of speech comes with danger and assemble who they want.
01:21:46.000But we have struck the balance in this country that we should always err on the side of letting individuals make their choice over letting the government make the choice.
01:21:55.000Because the second you say somebody else should choose, it always ends up being the government.
01:21:58.000And that always creates problems in the long run.
01:22:02.000And so, and when you also look at the long arc of history, in my opinion, what's caused more harm, devastation to humanity than any pestilence or anything else?
01:22:12.000It is the idea that individuals shouldn't have rights and freedoms, that the government should suppress and do what they want.
01:22:23.000It starts slowly, a little bit of coercion, a little more, and a little more, and then manages censorship, because when the government has a policy...
01:24:40.000If I believe so strongly in vaccines, I should be able to give you that information that will convince you that this product is good for your child.
01:25:20.000We were talking about vitamin K before we came on it.
01:25:22.000You know, I just, it's things like that.
01:25:24.000That like, don't, please don't get these things lost in the shuffle as we're talking about all these other conversations about medical autonomy and freedom of choice and doing what's in the best informed consent.
01:26:51.000If they don't travel outside of the U.S., is that like point is, like, can somebody be completely safe and fine and healthy if they don't get any shots?
01:27:35.000Some of the data that you've looked at suggests that if you get measles or like normally in nature, that you might have other potential benefits, which is something people, parents should look into.
01:27:46.000Yeah, it's the data directly on PubMed.
01:27:50.000And kids that have had measles and moms, okay, this data is, there's no data that contradicts the study.
01:28:04.000If it has a 20% decline, think about how many life years saved or lost that is.
01:28:11.000Even, you know, even when you compare it to the majority of the state, even if it's 1%, even if it's 1% decline, right, increase in cardiovascular deaths, your public health benefit has gone upside down.
01:28:34.000I'm just saying that that data appears to reflect that.
01:28:37.000Also, studies that show, for example, that kids that have had measles versus those that don't, okay, have a 66% reduction in Hodgkin's lymphoma and 166% reduction in non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.
01:28:51.000That killed 20,000 people last year, a lot of them kids.
01:28:54.000Again, if having measles reduces that rate, then again, your public health benefits upside down.
01:29:01.000Now, I'll point to one other data point and then I'll stop and I'll just point it to this.
01:29:05.000In the early 1980s, there's data that reflect less than 10% of kids had a chronic health condition in America.
01:29:48.000I have to say, you are not a doctor, right?
01:29:50.000I just want to say, like, I'm not a doctor.
01:29:52.000I'll tell you a place to start based on logic, common sense.
01:29:55.000I think, okay, my 10-year-old will give you this answer, okay?
01:29:59.000You don't need to have any degrees to give this answer.
01:30:01.000Why don't you start with ruling out the products that you now inject 29 times specifically to modify the immune system by the first birthday?
01:30:16.000Because I think it's really important to go back to your question where you said about what should I do.
01:30:20.000To me, that is the most confusing part: the understanding of what are these long-term risks.
01:30:25.000Are vaccines related to asthma, allergies, autoimmune condition, autism?
01:30:30.000All of these things matter because if they're not related to those in any way and we do all the research and we find that, that really changes the equation when you say, oh, well, there's we're preventing one hep B.
01:30:40.000But if it's creating all of these other problems, then we need to know that because that changes the risk-benefit calculation where you say, okay, well, now we're doing all these vaccines.
01:30:50.000What if we just prioritize the few and that can bring it down?
01:30:53.000It's not about not wanting to protect kids from disease.
01:30:57.000You also want to protect them from chronic disease.
01:30:59.000And so you have to balance those two things.
01:31:20.000And epidemiology can be adjusted and massaged based on the person's predetermined beliefs.
01:31:26.000And that's why sometimes you see a very pro-vaccine person find very pro-vaccine findings and a pretty anti-vaccine person find something that's not because you can adjust it to find what you're looking to find.
01:31:36.000The only way to answer the question, in my opinion, the only way for me to be able to tell you what you should do is to know what are the risks.
01:31:44.000Then I can weigh those two things and I can say your benefit from this vaccine outweighs your risk.
01:31:49.000Is there like a central database where like-minded doctors like yourself, you know, so example, so somebody might be listening to this?
01:32:28.000We have other questions from moms, though.
01:32:30.000So, yeah, another mom sent in this question, which kind of piggybacks based off of what you were just talking about, is many parents say that their child has changed after having vaccines, especially after, obviously, a vaccine.
01:32:42.000How should doctors respond in a way that respects the parent, but is also evidence-based?
01:32:48.000Well, we should be listening to parents.
01:32:49.000I mean, this is the craziest part of the whole vaccine autism world, which you bring that up and then doctors say, oh, there's no proof.
01:32:56.000We don't have proof that ice cream causes autism.
01:33:03.000But there are hundreds of thousands or at least tens of thousands of parents, probably hundreds of thousands, maybe millions that have said, after my kid got a vaccine, this happened.
01:33:19.000This is literally a parent who went in to get a vaccine and they swear their kid was acting one way the day before and different the day after.
01:33:26.000Why would we not listen to those parents?
01:33:53.000Hopefully, if we continue to have these conversations, we're not going to look at a parent who thinks that a vaccine caused their child's problem and call them an anti-vaxxer or call them crazy.
01:34:59.000I just find, I mean, there's, what I'm hopeful that we are doing here is we're educating about some of the underlying science that I think that you guys have done brilliantly.
01:35:10.000But these, you know, we were just with Marina, who's our CMO.
01:35:18.000And she all of a sudden she finds out you're here.
01:35:21.000She's like, well, I actually do have questions, you know, and they're trying to get her to her doctor, her pediatrician, or her OBE said, you have to get three shots.
01:35:29.000You have to get a flu shot, an RSV shot, and was it whooping cough?
01:35:38.000Like, I have to get these for my baby at this point.
01:35:41.000Like, so what can I, I know we're jumping around here.
01:35:44.000We're doing a little rapid fire before we close here, but what is, what should moms be knowledgeable about when they're being told they need to get in utero vaccines, basically, like, but when they're when they're still pregnant as opposed to for their baby?
01:35:58.000Well, I think you need to be aware of what's recommended and why.
01:36:00.000Understand what protections you might get and what risks there might be.
01:36:03.000And then you have to decide if you're comfortable with that.
01:36:52.000Again, can't sue the manufacturer, can't hold the company accountable.
01:36:56.000If you're injured by a vaccine and you call our firm, we can file typically only a claim in the vaccine recompensation program where you don't get an Article III judge, you get a special master, you get no discovery of rights.
01:37:23.000And you fight against a DOJ with endless resources.
01:37:25.000I mean, so yes, there are no vaccines that we don't litigate that cause all kinds of issues.
01:37:31.000You've heard some of them earlier today, Guillain-Barre syndrome, transverse myelitis, which are your body, your body's own immune system attacking the nerves in your body can cause paralysis, cause other issues, a whole host of other things.
01:37:44.000And then separate from that work on our, you know, I'll also point out that there are a series of studies that have looked at kids with no vaccines and kids that are vaccinated.
01:38:22.000So wrapping this kind of conversation up is difficult because I think that I'm probably like a lot of parents out there where you just want somebody to tell you, do this, don't do this, don't do this, and do this.
01:38:37.000And it's just such a complicated conversation because it sounds like we don't have the studies that most people would assume we have, that there are risks in everything, and we have to weigh those one by one, meaning the individual has to do their own work.
01:39:24.000And maybe that's a good place where you'd like to see this conversation go in the months ahead.
01:39:30.000Yeah, I mean, overall, I'm very happy.
01:39:32.000I think we're moving in an excellent direction in terms of opening up the floor to discussion and looking into some of these things.
01:39:39.000I hope, I really hope that individuals who have been in the vaccine space for a long time, the mainstream doctors, the Paul Offits of the world, will be more involved.
01:39:49.000I don't think things are going to change in any significant way until everybody comes to the table and sits together and has these discussions and have debates and look at what we do have and what we don't have and where we can go from here and are actually honest about that.
01:40:04.000I think if we can have those discussions, if we can get everybody at the table, then everyone can realize it's not pro-vaccine people versus anti-vaccine people or HHS versus other people.
01:40:19.000And I don't care if they get a thousand vaccines or zero vaccines as long as they're healthier.
01:40:23.000And the only way we're going to get there is if we can talk about it, be honest about what we know, and then to keep doing the research and the studies and figure out whatever it is.
01:43:56.000With these products, though, unfortunately, you don't have the industry's not, can't be held accountable in the same way in any way, almost.
01:44:03.000And the government, for the most part, and Bobby's trying to work on this, is not really there defending the consumer.