The Charlie Kirk Show - Was Jesus a Catholic? Thoughtful Theology with Michael Knowles

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00:00:28.000 Was Jesus a Catholic?

00:00:31.000 A fun, light-hearted conversation with Michael Knowles, who is a devout Catholic, about Christianity, about the Bible, about Catholicism.

00:00:41.000 Now, I do have a soft spot for Catholicism.

00:00:44.000 There's a lot about Catholicism I like.

00:00:46.000 I am not Catholic.

00:00:47.000 I am of the Protestant evangelical tradition.

00:00:51.000 And I press Michael on some of the concerns I have.

00:00:54.000 And I think this conversation will broaden your horizons.

00:00:57.000 It is not a debate.

00:00:58.000 Let me be very clear.

00:00:59.000 This is a conversation amongst two really good friends about things that matter in a light-hearted, spirited way.

00:01:08.000 Text this episode to your friends, and it's brought to you no advertisers, the whole episode, no interruption.

00:01:14.000 Thanks to all of you that have stepped up and supported us at charliekirk.com slash support.

00:01:19.000 So God bless you for that.

00:01:21.000 Was Jesus a Catholic?

00:01:22.000 Buckle up. 0.96

00:01:23.000 Here we go.

00:01:25.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.

00:01:26.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.

00:01:28.000 I want you to know we are lucky to have Charlie Kirk.

00:01:32.000 Charlie Kirk's running the White House, folks.

00:01:35.000 I want to thank Charlie.

00:01:36.000 He's an incredible guy.

00:01:37.000 His spirit is love of this country.

00:01:39.000 He's done an amazing job building one of the most powerful youth organizations ever created.

00:01:44.000 Turning point USA. 0.65

00:01:46.000 We will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries, destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country.

00:01:54.000 That's why we are here.

00:01:58.000 Michael, welcome back to the Charlie Kirk Show.

00:02:00.000 It is great, as always, to be a very candid conversation, and maybe one day we'll get big enough where we can actually air these private conversations.

00:02:08.000 You know what?

00:02:08.000 We're not afraid of cancellation or any of that.

00:02:11.000 We need a little more cancel insulation first. 0.97

00:02:13.000 Yeah, I think so.

00:02:14.000 I mean, the level of discourse there was rather provocative.

00:02:18.000 It was racy.

00:02:19.000 It was absolutely outrageous.

00:02:21.000 Somewhat like saucy.

00:02:23.000 Yeah.

00:02:24.000 Like somewhat authoritarian in nature.

00:02:26.000 More than somewhat.

00:02:27.000 No, I mean, we'll.

00:02:28.000 And we're not going to talk about what we're talking about.

00:02:30.000 You don't have to guess.

00:02:30.000 No.

00:02:31.000 So your book is basically about making cancel culture great again.

00:02:35.000 I think that's a basically fair assessment.

00:02:37.000 Is that right?

00:02:38.000 Non-sarcastically straight down the strike zone.

00:02:41.000 And I actually wanted to play devil's advocate more, but it's really hard when you're remote because you don't want to interrupt your guest.

00:02:41.000 Yeah.

00:02:47.000 The book is called Speechless.

00:02:48.000 Yes.

00:02:49.000 It's done very well.

00:02:50.000 A lot of people have been talking about it.

00:02:51.000 Well, I want to clarify.

00:02:53.000 It's done very well on the actual bestseller list.

00:02:55.000 It's hit number one, but on the New York Times quote-unquote bestseller list, they wouldn't put it on the list.

00:03:01.000 Oh, my God.

00:03:02.000 I sold in order of magnitude more.

00:03:05.000 So the first week I sold, it was like 18,000 or something.

00:03:08.000 So I was 40% more than their number one.

00:03:08.000 Oh, you should be on the list.

00:03:12.000 But as you know, the book is a little bit controversial.

00:03:16.000 We did, we got third, right, Andrew?

00:03:19.000 We actually got second on the New York Times, right?

00:03:20.000 They put you on the list?

00:03:21.000 Yeah.

00:03:22.000 We got second or third on the New York Times.

00:03:23.000 But they never give me.

00:03:24.000 Amazon is legit, though, because it's pure volume.

00:03:27.000 Yeah, we hit number one on Amazon overall.

00:03:29.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:03:30.000 Of all categories.

00:03:30.000 Yeah.

00:03:31.000 You know, it's funny, though.

00:03:31.000 It's a big deal.

00:03:32.000 Before we hit number one on all categories, before we hit number one on all categories, they put me in number one in civil rights.

00:03:38.000 I beat Ibram Kendi.

00:03:39.000 I beat Robin D'Angelo.

00:03:40.000 So I just want to point out for you.

00:03:42.000 You're a civil rights psychologist.

00:03:43.000 I am the preeminent civil rights leader in this country.

00:03:45.000 All right.

00:03:46.000 And I demand respect.

00:03:47.000 And the civil right you're trying to push forward is the ability to silence people harshly, quickly, and without apology.

00:03:47.000 Yeah.

00:03:53.000 Yeah.

00:03:53.000 Yes.

00:03:54.000 I think that I think, you know, it's funny because we're kind of joking about it.

00:03:57.000 No, no, I'm actually being very clear.

00:03:58.000 But I'm serious in that.

00:04:00.000 What I'm saying is not even that we need to censor or silence people.

00:04:04.000 I'm just saying that I'm making the descriptive statement, the observation that all societies have standards and taboos.

00:04:11.000 This is true everywhere.

00:04:12.000 It's always been true in the United States. 0.79

00:04:14.000 And the father of liberalism, John Locke, called for very stringent standards, actually, and censorship.

00:04:20.000 John Milton, same thing.

00:04:21.000 And so when people, I think, call me, they ignorantly would say you're an authoritarian or you're an illiberal.

00:04:27.000 I do like to point out I'm apparently more liberal than the father of liberalism.

00:04:32.000 So I don't think it's too far.

00:04:33.000 So this idea of cancel culture, I hate the term, I always have.

00:04:37.000 And I knew this was going to come back towards us eventually because of kind of our moral kind of campaign we've been on.

00:04:45.000 Like, oh, cancellation is bad.

00:04:47.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:04:47.000 And I was like, well, the cancellation we're experiencing is bad because you're canceling people for like saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

00:04:53.000 I know.

00:04:54.000 Oh, do you know that other phrase?

00:04:55.000 They always pair it.

00:04:56.000 They'll say, I may vigorously disagree with what you say, but I'll defend to your death your rights.

00:05:00.000 Did I hear that one more time?

00:05:01.000 It's by Voltaire.

00:05:02.000 I mean, if you hear anything by Voltaire, just assume the opposite is true.

00:05:08.000 That's some good.

00:05:09.000 I don't know.

00:05:09.000 Did he?

00:05:10.000 I'll keep looking.

00:05:11.000 Maybe I'm not well read enough.

00:05:12.000 I don't know.

00:05:13.000 I think you're better read than I am.

00:05:15.000 So I guess the question is then, when do we censor and how?

00:05:20.000 And then I want to play devil's advocate with part of this because when I was thinking back to our conversation, it challenged a lot of things that I've said publicly.

00:05:29.000 So let's just start with you.

00:05:31.000 When do we censor and how?

00:05:33.000 You say prudence.

00:05:34.000 You say we need to have practical judgment.

00:05:36.000 We know what we see it.

00:05:38.000 But where is that line, would you say?

00:05:40.000 Well, I think that what we need to be is, to quote Anton and Scalia on actually a separate issue, very careful.

00:05:48.000 We need to decide very carefully.

00:05:50.000 So we do need prudence here. 0.68

00:05:52.000 And I think that there are two polls that people keep vacillating between.

00:05:56.000 There's the one poll which says we should never censor anything.

00:06:00.000 We should have no standards at all.

00:06:02.000 If you want to walk into a preschool and start screaming racial epithets, that's totally fine because we defend free speech.

00:06:07.000 Okay, that's obviously preposterous.

00:06:08.000 Nobody really believes that.

00:06:09.000 And then on the other end, they'll say, look, I can tell you with absolute perfect precision exactly what the standard should be at all times because I, king of the universe, am going to proclaim it to you.

00:06:21.000 That's also preposterous.

00:06:22.000 So what I would do if I were trying to figure out how to shape the American free speech regime, I would look to our past.

00:06:30.000 I would look to what we have done before, what has led to flourishing in the United States, when we have suppressed obscenity, for instance, in the past, what the effect of that was.

00:06:38.000 I think it was pretty good effect.

00:06:40.000 When we have stopped enforcing obscenity laws, the effect of that, I think, has been pretty bad, we would all agree. 0.96

00:06:45.000 So then I would say, okay, well, maybe we should suppress these sorts of things.

00:06:47.000 There was an effort, bipartisan, in the 1990s to limit the spread of pornography on the internet.

00:06:53.000 And it was struck down by radicals on the Supreme Court.

00:06:56.000 And so I would try to amend that because I think the majority of the American people in the American tradition realize you should do that.

00:07:02.000 You can do that and you should do that.

00:07:04.000 So I would begin seriously, very carefully.

00:07:07.000 Yeah, I don't even know what people believe on that issue anymore after the last 48 hours I've had.

00:07:12.000 I used to think that was the case, but now I'm kind of like...

00:07:14.000 That's right.

00:07:15.000 You were criticized because there was a porn star at an event, and then you were criticized because then there wasn't a porn star.

00:07:20.000 The same story is all taped so we can talk about this and edit it as we see fit, right, Andrew?

00:07:25.000 So it makes for good art is the ability to fail.

00:07:29.000 So, yeah, I mean, I kind of like speaking and doing things, and then someone comes up to me and they're like, oh, yeah, by the way, there was a porn star here, and we kicked her out.

00:07:38.000 I was like, good.

00:07:40.000 And yeah, I didn't think it was that controversial, right?

00:07:43.000 Remember, Andrew, and I was like, so what's the problem?

00:07:44.000 But the thing is, the porn star is completely separate.

00:07:47.000 There is always going to be some tempest in a teapot at any event that you do.

00:07:50.000 Seriously, because it's a very big event.

00:07:52.000 People are always trying to...

00:07:52.000 There's thousands of people.

00:07:54.000 I just want to re-emphasize children.

00:07:54.000 Children.

00:07:56.000 Very, you know, young people, obviously.

00:07:57.000 14-year-olds are here.

00:07:58.000 Yeah.

00:07:59.000 You might have like eight-year-olds here.

00:08:00.000 But you'll be criticized either way.

00:08:02.000 No, no, no.

00:08:02.000 You'd be criticized for kicking it.

00:08:03.000 I don't mind the criticism.

00:08:04.000 I mind bad criticism.

00:08:06.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:08:07.000 Well, I mean, this is a pretty good example because I think whenever you hear that we need standards in society, all of a sudden people say, you're Hitler, you're Mussolini, you're limited.

00:08:18.000 And you say, hold on, I'm just saying maybe we limit the spread of porn everywhere. 0.97

00:08:22.000 Or, hey, maybe we don't let transvestites twerk for kids in the libraries. 1.00

00:08:26.000 And maybe we can know that that's bad and we can agree.

00:08:29.000 To use William F. Buckley's phrase, we can be epistemological optimists, by which he meant we could just know things and agree on at least a few things.

00:08:37.000 Maybe we can agree that a man is not a woman and we can't. 1.00

00:08:42.000 We don't agree on anything because we no longer enforce a standard.

00:08:45.000 So no standards are left.

00:08:46.000 But let me ask you a question, though.

00:08:47.000 Is that this cult of progress under the guise of non-interventionist domestic policy, meaning I'm not, right?

00:08:55.000 Good phrase.

00:08:56.000 Like, I'm not going to intervene in social issues.

00:08:59.000 Does it all of a sudden render this liberty unsustainable?

00:09:02.000 Like, is this project by definition going to end in whomever is willing to use the sword?

00:09:08.000 Well, the first definition you have to establish is liberty.

00:09:11.000 Because if you go with the modern liberal definition that liberty is just doing whatever you want and the ability to do whatever you want, then you have to conclude that there should be no limits.

00:09:19.000 Forget it on speech.

00:09:20.000 There should be no limits even on ourselves.

00:09:21.000 There's a Ron Paul version of liberty, right?

00:09:23.000 Which was like, do whatever you want, however you want to do it, legalize all the drugs.

00:09:26.000 I love Ron Paul.

00:09:27.000 Yeah, yes.

00:09:28.000 I mean, he was definitely more sympathetic, right?

00:09:30.000 Idealistically libertarian.

00:09:32.000 Yeah, but I think it's a bad ideal.

00:09:33.000 I mean, I think I totally agree.

00:09:35.000 The true definition of liberty is not the ability to do whatever you want.

00:09:38.000 It's the freedom to do what you ought to do.

00:09:40.000 And this is when Christ says the man who sins is a slave to sin.

00:09:42.000 That's what he means.

00:09:43.000 When Aristotle describes, when Aristotle and other ancient Greek dead old guys describe freedom, this is what they're describing: the tamping down of the vices and the base passions and bringing those appetites into accord with the rational will.

00:09:58.000 I mean, and we just don't do that anymore.

00:10:00.000 But that was the purpose of liberal education.

00:10:02.000 And it's funny now because when people go to get a quote-unquote liberal education in college, yeah, they just sleep around and get a licentiousness education.

00:10:10.000 They do, yeah.

00:10:11.000 And everyone does it, or almost everyone these days.

00:10:14.000 But it's why the quality of the education, both on the book learning and the behavior learning, has suffered so much.

00:10:21.000 Well, I think what you just said, though, is the debate and the question around what is liberty, what is freedom, is basically the beginning and the end of what's happening in the conservative movement right now.

00:10:30.000 It does.

00:10:30.000 Because if liberty means the erasure of all limits, then I guess, yeah, we can't have any standards or anything like that.

00:10:36.000 But that's kind of what's dominated the conservative movement.

00:10:38.000 It has for at least 10 or 15 years.

00:10:40.000 10 years since all the libertarians took over the conservative movement right after Obama.

00:10:44.000 Yeah, and it's funny.

00:10:45.000 I don't even, I hate to even call them libertarians because they're like, they're the.

00:10:50.000 Have you ever heard the phrase a la libertarian?

00:10:52.000 Like it's even like a desiccated.

00:10:53.000 It's too much internet culture.

00:10:54.000 It's so internety, but it's.

00:10:56.000 It sounds like a Reddit thing.

00:10:57.000 Yes, but these are not people who have read the classical liberal tradition or who have read Hayek or Mises or Robinson saw some bastion on Ayn Rand meme.

00:11:05.000 Like, that's what I believe.

00:11:07.000 No man shall ever tell me to live and I'll never tell you another live for them or for my own sake.

00:11:07.000 Yes, yeah.

00:11:12.000 By the way, yes, yeah, yeah, that's like the John Galt thing.

00:11:14.000 Yeah. 0.88

00:11:14.000 Well, I mean, it's like, again, the Atlas shrugged has some utility, but yes, the quote's ridiculous. 0.88

00:11:19.000 It's a ridiculous quote.

00:11:20.000 And, you know, the reason I think it's hard to describe them as libertarians is I don't think it comes necessarily from a place of real principle. 0.96

00:11:30.000 I think often what it comes from is a place of political cowardice because they don't want to be the bad guys who tell you what to do and they don't want to have to exercise political power and they don't have to do the thing that the Constitution tells you to do.

00:11:42.000 Yeah, I mean, but here's my question, though, is that do they just throw up kind of the card that says I'm a libertarian?

00:11:50.000 I'm like the cool kid in the room.

00:11:52.000 That just means I'm a conservative, but I'm not that kind of conservative.

00:11:52.000 Is that kind of it?

00:11:57.000 And you could take this wherever you want.

00:11:58.000 Some of your colleagues at the Daily Wire seem to really agree with you.

00:12:01.000 Some of them disagree with you, and they all call themselves conservative generally.

00:12:04.000 Well, Ben, I think, says he's a little more libertarian.

00:12:04.000 Yeah.

00:12:04.000 Right.

00:12:07.000 Yeah, by the way, I think Ben is from a more serious libertarian tradition than the people on his tenure.

00:12:12.000 So Ben, though, would disagree with a lot of this, what we're talking about.

00:12:15.000 Yeah, a fair bit.

00:12:16.000 I mean, there's a joke, you know, Ben has a new book coming out called The Authoritarian Moment, which I jokingly said is going to be my campaign slogan in 2028.

00:12:23.000 Knowles 2020, The Authoritarian Moment.

00:12:26.000 So, but how does that like walk us through that tension point?

00:12:29.000 Because I think that's really interesting of two smart people that just don't see this the same way.

00:12:34.000 Yeah, I mean, I don't want to speak for Ben, obviously, on it, but I think he has greater sympathy for the libertarian side of things.

00:12:41.000 Drew Clavin, I think, has greater sympathy for the kind of classical liberal tradition.

00:12:45.000 Matt Walsh is more in your camp, especially these days, is a little more in my camp.

00:12:49.000 Jeremy has the most unique politics of anyone you'll ever meet, you know, and so you really can't guess where he's going to land on things.

00:12:56.000 So, you know, that tension, though, is one that Russell Kirk described too.

00:13:01.000 And because he cautioned against the conservative movement getting too libertarian, he said this is not going to work out very well.

00:13:08.000 And he was much more from the traditionalist camp of politics.

00:13:12.000 And, you know, it's hard to say that his predictions weren't true.

00:13:15.000 No, I guess, yeah, I just asked Ben.

00:13:18.000 I'll ask Bennett the question.

00:13:19.000 I just, I can't possibly believe that this idea of us becoming authoritarian is really a legitimate pressure we have to put on ourselves.

00:13:30.000 Because we're not doing anything now.

00:13:32.000 We're so far from authoritarian.

00:13:34.000 We've just done like 30 interviews in the last two days.

00:13:36.000 I said, it's actually the exact opposite that's happened.

00:13:38.000 I think it was SoRab I said this with.

00:13:40.000 He's so smart.

00:13:42.000 And Josh Hammer, I said, so in a stunning turn of events, when I grew up, I was told that the right-wingers are going to control your body and tell you what to do.

00:13:52.000 And that the liberals are going to allow you to do whatever you want to do.

00:13:55.000 And now in 2021, it's right-wingers that are like super like, no, I'm never going to tell you what to do.

00:14:01.000 And liberals that are telling you what to do with your body.

00:14:03.000 How did that happen?

00:14:04.000 Because in the 1960s, the left, as a tool, as an instrument, as a tactic, they adopted this laissez-faire attitude.

00:14:13.000 And it's because they were living in a predominantly conservative culture.

00:14:16.000 So by adopting the attitude that, hey, we should all do whatever we want in upend standards, they were giving themselves a tactical advantage.

00:14:22.000 Now, that was not the end of the story.

00:14:24.000 They were then going to reinstitute very rigid standards on grounds more advantageous.

00:14:28.000 So you think they had that totalitarian impulse all along?

00:14:30.000 Well, they just, I don't even want to use that harsh language.

00:14:33.000 They had a political vision and they pretended to be laissez-faire for some period of time.

00:14:37.000 And now they're instituting their vision. 1.00

00:14:39.000 And we bought all of their stupid slogans. 0.99

00:14:41.000 So now we're still using this really shallow sort of laissez-faire slogan. 1.00

00:14:46.000 And we don't have our own political vision.

00:14:48.000 Yeah.

00:14:49.000 So here's the issue, though, Michael: is that I agree with you, Walsh agrees with us.

00:14:54.000 You know, Tucker.

00:14:55.000 It's kind of this coalition, Adrian.

00:14:57.000 Yeah.

00:14:58.000 And it's just, but the lawmakers are instilling the Chamber of Commerce view of things that more plastic from China is a good thing.

00:15:05.000 Like the vaccine is somehow going to save us from ourselves, which is insane.

00:15:09.000 Even though it doesn't work, so you got to wear the mask in LA.

00:15:12.000 But that I don't, that's very confusing because I thought that they were going to be able to do that.

00:15:15.000 Or the Texas Democrats, they all get the vaccine and like eight of them get infected.

00:15:18.000 Is that right?

00:15:19.000 They left with Budweiser, came back with Corona.

00:15:21.000 Delta Varian Airlines.

00:15:23.000 Yeah, Delta, precisely.

00:15:25.000 If you just look at memes all day long, you get so many good one-liners.

00:15:28.000 I tell people that are going to speak, just go look at memes all day long.

00:15:31.000 You can follow Benny Johnson or Donald Trump Jr. for that.

00:15:33.000 So now, speaking of not very controversial topics, so why should everyone become Catholic?

00:15:39.000 So, Charlie, we're beginning with you.

00:15:43.000 I mean, but it's like every time I think that there's something nice about it, it's like, oh, that's awful.

00:15:49.000 You know, I've read you the Hilaire Bello quote.

00:15:51.000 Which one?

00:15:53.000 Become Catholics? 0.82

00:15:55.000 No, that's a good quote.

00:15:56.000 No, it's actually a quote that makes this point, though.

00:15:59.000 I wish Hilaire Bellock.

00:15:59.000 I'm going to start quoting that to Hilaire Belloc.

00:16:01.000 The line is that I am bound by my faith to believe that the Catholic Church is divinely instituted. 0.94

00:16:07.000 But for non-believers and evidence of its divine institution is that no other organization conducted with such knavish imbecility would have lasted a fortnight. 0.94

00:16:15.000 And we're seeing that play out right now in the episcopacy.

00:16:18.000 And so I think.

00:16:19.000 So your argument is very similar to Dennis Prager's argument in the Old Testament. 0.63

00:16:23.000 This must be true because the Jews write such awful things about themselves. 1.00

00:16:26.000 Yes. 0.99

00:16:27.000 Yes.

00:16:27.000 Basically, no divine text would ever describe the protagonist in such a horrible light unless it actually has.

00:16:34.000 No, that's a very good point.

00:16:34.000 It were true.

00:16:37.000 So your argument is sustainability of the corrupt.

00:16:40.000 Well, I mean, even, look, we're all corrupt.

00:16:42.000 No, no, no.

00:16:44.000 I'm actually not bashing it.

00:16:46.000 I'm just making it.

00:16:46.000 No, you know, my argument, for those who are considering the Catholic faith, I mean, there are many, many good arguments for the church, but I'd make a political argument, too.

00:16:56.000 My theological argument is that mankind needs sacrament.

00:17:02.000 Mankind needs the regular interaction of the metaphysical and the physical, which you get in its fullest expression in the Catholic Church.

00:17:09.000 And in some Protestant denominations, you get some simulacra of that.

00:17:12.000 And then in a lot of Protestant denominations, they're totally separate.

00:17:14.000 I agree with that.

00:17:15.000 But in the political argument, the argument I would make is that the Catholic Church formed our civilization.

00:17:21.000 And just as the play Hamlet is about the cracking of objective truth with Martin Luther.

00:17:27.000 Oh, Horatio.

00:17:29.000 Yes.

00:17:30.000 The first line of Hamlet.

00:17:31.000 Well, by the way, in Hamlet's feigning madness, do you remember he's asked, what are you reading, my lord?

00:17:40.000 And he responds, words, words, words, which is this joke, feigning madness.

00:17:44.000 That is, by the way, a current academic understanding of the meaning of texts.

00:17:48.000 It's just words, words, words.

00:17:50.000 So I'm going to stop you.

00:17:51.000 I'm just interested.

00:17:52.000 I'm not disagreeing.

00:17:54.000 Do you attribute any of Western success to the Protestant Reformation?

00:18:01.000 Do you think that was a good thing for civilization?

00:18:03.000 No, well, I'm Catholic, so I certainly don't think it was a good thing for civilization. 1.00

00:18:05.000 If I thought it were a good thing for civilization, I'd become Protestant. 0.89

00:18:08.000 Well, so, okay, let's explore that.

00:18:10.000 I mean, like the Gutenberg press, massive literacy race.

00:18:13.000 Well, I think you would have gotten the pilgrims weren't Catholic. 0.92

00:18:16.000 No, but you had, I know, some of my ancestors who were probably rolling in their graves at my Catholicism.

00:18:21.000 But, I mean, you know, the printing press is not a consequence of Protestantism.

00:18:25.000 It's actually the cause of Protestantism in many ways. 0.60

00:18:27.000 So you would have gotten the printing press.

00:18:28.000 The printing press, well, fair, but the printing press allowed the Bible to be widespread. 0.86

00:18:33.000 And the only reason the Bible was widespread was because it wasn't being gatekept by people.

00:18:37.000 No, but if you, I mean, you had the, you had the printing press before Protestantism.

00:18:40.000 So I think you would.

00:18:41.000 But you would never have touched a Bible without the hierarchy of.

00:18:45.000 Oh, that's, of course, true.

00:18:46.000 No, the reason that very often you'll hear people say that the Bible was under lock and key under the Catholic Church.

00:18:51.000 And that's true in some places.

00:18:52.000 That is largely true in mainland Scotland and England.

00:18:55.000 But it's like no literacy raise.

00:18:57.000 No, but the reason for that, of course, is the Bible was super expensive to produce.

00:19:01.000 So they were under lock and key because they were very, very valuable, expensive things.

00:19:04.000 With the printing press, the cost of that direct superintendent.

00:19:07.000 I'm just interested, I'm not disagreeing.

00:19:09.000 That under Catholicism dominance, civilization, that all of a sudden they'd be tossing out Bibles like frisbees to peasants in the Highlands. 1.00

00:19:18.000 I think you would have had a much greater spread of the Bible.

00:19:21.000 So the Catholic Church banned certain books, but the Protestants banned other books as well.

00:19:21.000 You got to remember it.

00:19:25.000 I mean, I think those differences of everything Luther ever did.

00:19:28.000 But I'm defending banning books.

00:19:29.000 So I'm actually sort of defending that aspect, I guess.

00:19:32.000 Yeah, so I guess the question is, so a lot of people, myself included, would point to the Protestant Reformation and Luther as kind of this correction course towards this idea of natural rights and self-governance.

00:19:47.000 And you would say, no, the Catholic Church would have figured it out and there would have been Catholic pilgrims.

00:19:51.000 No, there wouldn't have been. 0.98

00:19:52.000 Well, you've got to remember the pilgrims got booted from Protestant England because they were so nuts. 1.00

00:19:56.000 And I say this as the descendant of some people. 0.81

00:19:59.000 They were obedient to the Lord.

00:20:01.000 To the Lord, but not to the king.

00:20:02.000 Well, you know, but Thomas.

00:20:03.000 The true king.

00:20:04.000 But Thomas More, you know, St. Thomas More says, I'm obedient to the king.

00:20:07.000 I'm the king of Savior.

00:20:08.000 He's a servant is a bad example of a Protestant. 1.00

00:20:10.000 He's the founder of English Protestantism.

00:20:14.000 I'm nowhere near Anglicanism, okay?

00:20:16.000 Let's just be very clear.

00:20:17.000 Like the Episcopal Church and I are on different planets.

00:20:20.000 Well, especially these days, because it's been watered down into the world.

00:20:24.000 And this is the problem, though, that I've noticed with a lot of the Protestant denominations is, you know, it reminds me of O'Sullivan's first law.

00:20:32.000 Any organization that is not explicitly conservative will become leftist over time.

00:20:36.000 Oh, I totally agree with that.

00:20:37.000 And though the best thing the Catholics have going for you is you're, you know, they're trying to screw up, obviously, which is outwardly socially conservative. 0.97

00:20:45.000 We'll get into that in a second.

00:20:47.000 We're outwardly socially conservative, right?

00:20:50.000 We have uncompromising beliefs.

00:20:51.000 We're going to be ritualistic and we're going to abide by certain inertia of history, too.

00:20:58.000 I mean, this is why even when you get radicals in the bishop seats or even in the papacy, they can't change all that much because they do not have the very helpful.

00:21:10.000 Yeah, but I just, Western society, in my, I just, again, you don't know what would have happened.

00:21:15.000 It's pure speculation.

00:21:17.000 But the trajectory prior to Luther was not all of a sudden going to create just kind of out of nowhere, ex nihilio, create a civilization and the banks of Massachusetts if a bunch of priests showed up.

00:21:30.000 I mean, the Americas were discovered by a devout Catholic.

00:21:33.000 Not discovered, founded and formed.

00:21:35.000 It was settled by like Protestant.

00:21:38.000 I mean, you know, there are other plays.

00:21:38.000 And Catholic.

00:21:40.000 George Williams was Protestant.

00:21:42.000 Yeah, no, the English.

00:21:43.000 And George Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards, First Great Awakening was all Protestants. 0.84

00:21:46.000 The English settlers, obviously, were Protestant, but the Spaniard and Portuguese settlers were Catholic.

00:21:50.000 And we speak English for a reason because they didn't find anything meaningful in the Western hemisphere except slave trade. 0.77

00:21:55.000 I don't know about that.

00:21:56.000 I think Latin America has some contributions to society.

00:22:00.000 Do you not?

00:22:00.000 Well, I think you and I would both agree the American experiment has been mildly more successful.

00:22:04.000 No, of course.

00:22:05.000 I mean, look, I think that the Anglosphere broadly is obviously.

00:22:09.000 I'm not like diminishing.

00:22:10.000 Again, I'm not diminishing.

00:22:13.000 The Spanish crown was pretty successful for quite a bit, as was the Portuguese.

00:22:17.000 Do you think there's something to this kind of waspy pattern of behavior of Protestant work ethic kind of thing?

00:22:23.000 Yeah, like kind of like we're going to solve big problems, go to the new land as pilgrims, found new Israel, right?

00:22:29.000 I mean, like we shall build Jerusalem. 0.95

00:22:32.000 Well, but like to be honest, though, Michael, and this is an interesting, you love the American founding.

00:22:36.000 There is maybe one or two Catholics amongst the bunch.

00:22:36.000 I do too.

00:22:39.000 Yeah, no, I mean, there is.

00:22:40.000 Because it's just not in the Catholic DNA to all of a sudden like uproot, found, revolt, and start new.

00:22:46.000 Yeah, and there is some issue.

00:22:48.000 I mean, you know, Edmund Burke very famously defended the American Revolution, not everyone.

00:22:52.000 And Pitt, but condemned the French Revolution because there were different sorts of revolutions.

00:22:57.000 And the idea.

00:22:57.000 But it was a separation.

00:22:58.000 I think American was more as a separation.

00:22:59.000 Right.

00:23:00.000 And it was a sort of, he would call it a conservative revolution, you know, asserting the rights of the Brits.

00:23:06.000 But revolutions are something that, look, Thomas Aquinas defends political revolutions, but only as a sort of last resort.

00:23:12.000 Yeah.

00:23:13.000 And so I just think all of these things that are sometimes considered to be the invention of the Protestants, I think, you'd be denying a thousand years of Western history to say that it's not a problem. 0.98

00:23:22.000 No, I don't think that's fair because Protestants, it's like saying it's an invention of the Jews. 1.00

00:23:26.000 It's like the Protestants just continued the best parts of Catholicism and kind of threw out the most corrupt ones, right? 0.97

00:23:32.000 Well, that's the Protestant line.

00:23:34.000 But it's not like the Catholics came up with communion, right?

00:23:37.000 Well, I do think the Catholics actually came up with the regular. 0.85

00:23:40.000 Yeah, of course.

00:23:41.000 They came up with communion.

00:23:42.000 Yeah, who else did?

00:23:43.000 Jesus.

00:23:44.000 The first Catholic, right? 0.98

00:23:44.000 Right. 0.98

00:23:46.000 The guy who instituted the Catholic Church.

00:23:47.000 So when did Jesus go to Rome?

00:23:49.000 Well, he sent Peter and Paul to die in Rome.

00:23:51.000 But he didn't go to Rome.

00:23:52.000 But his apostles who founded his church did.

00:23:54.000 On that rock, let's talk about it.

00:23:55.000 Let's talk about it.

00:23:56.000 What's the word church?

00:23:57.000 Ecclesia.

00:23:58.000 What does it mean?

00:23:59.000 Well, it literally just means church today.

00:24:02.000 What does it mean in Greek?

00:24:02.000 You know, the called-out ones, the people gathered together.

00:24:05.000 So what was an ecclesia in ancient Greece?

00:24:08.000 It was the church.

00:24:09.000 A political gathering.

00:24:10.000 Well, sorry, it's political in that it's popular.

00:24:12.000 It's non-hierarchical.

00:24:13.000 Well, no, there were bishops.

00:24:15.000 There were bishops in the decas.

00:24:16.000 Ancient bishops.

00:24:17.000 Yep.

00:24:17.000 In pagan Greece.

00:24:18.000 No, not in pagan Greeks.

00:24:20.000 In Christian.

00:24:20.000 What I'm saying, though, is when they use the word in 70 AD.

00:24:23.000 Oh, sure, yes.

00:24:23.000 I mean, these are bodies of people.

00:24:25.000 And, you know, when we say political, that's synonymous with public.

00:24:27.000 So it's people gathering in a public form of worship and community.

00:24:32.000 Yeah, but it's never was that that word church is a purely Western world.

00:24:37.000 Like ecclesia means spontaneous gathering of people locally for a communal purpose under the word Eleutherian isonomia inequality.

00:24:45.000 Words are colored over time by what they so for instance, you know, political refers to the Paulus in ancient Greece, but then over time it comes to refer to all public matters.

00:24:52.000 The whole idea of the Catholic Church, right, which I don't agree with, is Jesus pointing to Peter, saying, on this, you know, the gates of hell will not prevail. 0.70

00:25:03.000 At the mouth of the Jordan River, he says, Accessory of Philippi, on this rock build my ecclesia, right?

00:25:09.000 And so he points to Peter.

00:25:10.000 So the argument...

00:25:11.000 Well, he names him the rock, right?

00:25:13.000 That's the pun.

00:25:14.000 Well, right.

00:25:14.000 And his name was literally Simon Peter.

00:25:16.000 Well, his name was Simon, and then he becomes Peter, which Christ names him Peter, which he's talking about.

00:25:20.000 I'm unbroken, or the foundation.

00:25:22.000 And so the idea of the Catholic Church is that only through that calling out of Peter is that the correct tradition.

00:25:30.000 Well, basically, Peter is the first pope, that he's the spokesman of the apostles, and he has a unique role in the church.

00:25:35.000 So then how do you deal with Thomas who basically went all the way to India?

00:25:40.000 Yeah.

00:25:41.000 Was he doing that heretically?

00:25:43.000 No, no.

00:25:44.000 He wasn't under Peter's direction.

00:25:46.000 Well, Peter had this unique role as the spokesman of the church.

00:25:48.000 But when we talk about the role of the Pope, we're not saying that no one else matters.

00:25:52.000 I mean, the church is governed by Pope.

00:25:54.000 Of course, I know, but I'm talking about the church in general.

00:25:56.000 Right, but the church is governed by pastors and bishops and archbishops and cardinals and the pope.

00:26:02.000 So the pope has a unique role, but he's not ⁇ he's far from the only person who's governed.

00:26:06.000 I understand all of that.

00:26:07.000 So Thomas has perfectly weakened.

00:26:09.000 The early church was anything but organized and it was spontaneous.

00:26:14.000 It was entrepreneurial.

00:26:16.000 Well, it was.

00:26:17.000 And it took Paul to kind of sort that out.

00:26:19.000 Yeah, but there was unity.

00:26:20.000 Of course, they weren't like texting one another from when he was on security.

00:26:24.000 But for example, like in Corinth or Thessalonica, like Paul had to straighten that out.

00:26:29.000 Yeah.

00:26:30.000 But Paul's.

00:26:30.000 You still have to today?

00:26:31.000 Yeah, of course.

00:26:32.000 But Paul's solution was never yield to Rome.

00:26:36.000 We're going to figure this out through a hierarchy.

00:26:38.000 I mean, Paul literally went to the Council of Jerusalem, right?

00:26:41.000 Well, yeah, he was killed in Rome eventually.

00:26:44.000 Yeah, as was Peter.

00:26:45.000 And so what you see happen is a development because this, you know, unlike, I know there's a very modern kind of tendency to take things out of time or, you know, say that these are the eternal ways of politics.

00:26:59.000 This is why we now talk about our democracies if it's the only political formation of all time.

00:27:03.000 But what has happened from the institution of the church by Christ through the development of the early church through the various councils is you're seeing a gradual development.

00:27:11.000 Even, by the way, when you look at the church in Alexandria, you look at the church in Athens, when there were disputes among the early churches, there was a kind of early strange role for the bishop of Rome to help to resolve them.

00:27:22.000 So that would not look exactly like the modern papacy, far from it, but it shows the development of that role coming from Peter.

00:27:29.000 The difference, one of the main things that just can't get me over the hill on Catholicism, probably never will, is you keep on referring to as like Jesus founding the church.

00:27:37.000 Yeah.

00:27:37.000 And like that.

00:27:39.000 Jesus founding a body that was...

00:27:41.000 Yeah, again, I don't think he was here to build infrastructure.

00:27:44.000 He's here to save souls.

00:27:45.000 The church is not just cathedrals.

00:27:47.000 The church has cathedrals.

00:27:47.000 I totally agree.

00:27:48.000 The church is the body of Christ and bodies have limits.

00:27:51.000 I agree with all that.

00:27:52.000 It's just if you believe Jesus is the Son of God, independent of all that hierarchy process.

00:27:59.000 But Christ says to Peter, go feed my sheep.

00:28:02.000 I mean, this involves a pastoral role.

00:28:03.000 He says, who does that say that I am?

00:28:05.000 John the Baptist.

00:28:06.000 Right.

00:28:07.000 Right, right.

00:28:08.000 Who do you say that I am?

00:28:09.000 Right, right.

00:28:10.000 And he was talking about the group, not just Peter.

00:28:12.000 He was talking to all 12 disciples.

00:28:15.000 Even if that were the case, that's fine.

00:28:17.000 What he says to the disciples is, you have the power to forgive sins.

00:28:21.000 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained, which means they have a special role.

00:28:26.000 And this is the institution of the confession, of the sacrament of reconciliation.

00:28:29.000 Because by the way, which I actually think has very good psychological.

00:28:33.000 But it cannot just be.

00:28:34.000 Sometimes I think people want to etherealize to they want to say that, well, really, what Christ is saying when he founds the church, when he gives the keys to the kingdom of heaven to Peter, he's really just giving the gospel and it's available to everybody.

00:28:49.000 But that doesn't make sense if the apostles have the power to forgive and retain sins.

00:28:55.000 It's not just them.

00:28:56.000 Because at Pentecost, what happened?

00:28:58.000 Well, the tongues of fire come down and convert. 0.82

00:29:00.000 Every single one of the gifts was spread to anyone who believes.

00:29:04.000 So the Holy Spirit comes.

00:29:08.000 So it wasn't limited to just that.

00:29:09.000 But you cannot have the power to bind and forgive the power of confession if everybody has it.

00:29:18.000 Because if everyone just has that power, then I can say, hey, Charlie, do you forgive me my sins?

00:29:22.000 And you'll say, sure.

00:29:23.000 And then I'll say, hey, Andrew, do you forgive me my sins?

00:29:25.000 He says, no, I retain your sins.

00:29:26.000 If there's no coherence to that, and if there, by the way, if there's no group of what became the bishops and then what became the Inquisition and then the Congregation for the Church of God.

00:29:38.000 No, I think it's just like usually the Inquisition is not where people go to first.

00:29:41.000 Right, but the Inquisition is terribly misunderstood because they conflate the Church Inquisition with the Spanish Inquisition.

00:29:45.000 The Spanish Inquisition was Spanish because it wasn't the Church Inquisition.

00:29:48.000 And the Inquisition still exists today.

00:29:50.000 It's called the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

00:29:52.000 And so if you don't have people who can clarify matters of doctrine, which occurs at various councils and has occurred at synods, then you have absolute chaos because everyone will define their own religion.

00:30:04.000 What if the Catholic interpretation is wrong?

00:30:10.000 Well, then we are most to be pitied, I suppose, to quote St. Paul.

00:30:13.000 But wouldn't it be more likely that it was a small D democratic gospel for all people of all nations?

00:30:19.000 I don't think the kingdom of heaven is a democracy.

00:30:21.000 No, small deed democratic can mean accessible to all.

00:30:24.000 But did not come here to say that.

00:30:26.000 Democratic involves self-rule, and I don't think that the church is moliter.

00:30:30.000 So you don't believe that obviously where we'll differ.

00:30:34.000 I'd rather have clarity than agreement, as Prager would say, that someone just reading the Bible can't come to the truth of the gospel through the experience of the text.

00:30:44.000 Of course they can.

00:30:44.000 But I think that Christ loves us so much that he impels us to do more and to follow his word and to follow the shepherds that he has appointed, who he asks to feed his sheep and to regularly eat the body of the Lord and to drink his blood because those who don't have no life in them.

00:31:00.000 Which is obviously a defense of the Eucharist, which again, I support. 0.97

00:31:03.000 I just don't believe in transubstantiation.

00:31:06.000 That's okay.

00:31:06.000 But I'm a firm supporter of people reading their Bibles.

00:31:09.000 I think that's great.

00:31:10.000 But when you read your Bible, that's...

00:31:11.000 All 66 books, right, Michael?

00:31:13.000 Even a few more than that, actually.

00:31:15.000 But once you read your Bible, that impels you to do more, I think.

00:31:20.000 I think that faith without works is dead, to quote James.

00:31:24.000 That is correct.

00:31:25.000 And Jesus is half-brother.

00:31:27.000 Yeah.

00:31:28.000 So theologically, I was most interested in the Western civilization question because I actually was surprised by your answer because I've heard Catholics go either way.

00:31:36.000 Also, by the way, before we move on, I'm going to let the half-brother thing slide.

00:31:40.000 It's totally true.

00:31:41.000 I'm going to let it slide in the interest of ecumenism.

00:31:44.000 Why is that not true?

00:31:45.000 Because Mary was perpetually virgin. 0.73

00:31:47.000 That's a topic for another podcast.

00:31:49.000 So, was James not Jesus' half-brother?

00:31:52.000 The phrase brothers, brothers and sisters of the Lord.

00:31:55.000 I could probably yield that point.

00:31:57.000 Theologians I really trust say that James was Jesus' half-brother.

00:32:02.000 I know.

00:32:02.000 And if I find them at a synod doubting the perpetual virginity of Mary, I'll smack them like St. Nicholas as an intercessor to Christ or whatnot.

00:32:10.000 No, but a co-mediatrix, right?

00:32:14.000 Yeah, that's another thing I'm not quite bought in on is this quasi-polytheism of like.

00:32:20.000 No, it's not polytheistic.

00:32:22.000 To venerate a human being.

00:32:23.000 No, we venerate lots of people.

00:32:25.000 I venerate Donald Trump.

00:32:27.000 We venerate.

00:32:28.000 I wouldn't recommend that.

00:32:29.000 No, I don't pray to him.

00:32:30.000 I don't worship him.

00:32:31.000 I don't even adore him.

00:32:32.000 Are you an intercessor to like nationalism or like no?

00:32:36.000 But if I asked you, if I said, hey, Charlie, you know, I'm having some trouble.

00:32:39.000 Can you pray for me?

00:32:41.000 I guess I am using you as an intercessor.

00:32:43.000 I'm praying to you for intercession.

00:32:44.000 I pray.

00:32:44.000 I've heard that argument.

00:32:45.000 Yeah.

00:32:46.000 So, you know, I get, but I'm not saying you're, I mean, you very well might be.

00:32:50.000 I think that people in the evangelical world underappreciate Mary.

00:32:55.000 Yes, yeah, I think that's fair.

00:32:56.000 And I will give you that 100%.

00:32:59.000 No, I just think it's interesting because basically you're saying Protestants were the rebels when they put the 95 theses and by God, they've never created like they're the. 0.89

00:33:10.000 No, well, Christ turns all sorts of bad things for good.

00:33:12.000 So he does.

00:33:13.000 I mean, and I actually, I really mean, I actually mean this in a very direct way.

00:33:16.000 There's an excellent book by Elizabeth Lev called How Catholic Art Saved the Faith, because there was plenty of corruption, there was rampant corruption before the Protestant Revolution.

00:33:24.000 There's plenty of corruption.

00:33:25.000 Revolution.

00:33:25.000 Yeah, because it wasn't a Reformation in that it kind of created a new thing.

00:33:29.000 How much do you know about Tyndale?

00:33:31.000 You know, enough to know we should have burned that guy when we had the chance.

00:33:34.000 Yeah, we should have burned him earlier. 0.93

00:33:36.000 Oh, really?

00:33:38.000 No, I mean, I just think that getting onto this point of this book, there was a sort of atrophying of the faith, and there were a lot of problems being created.

00:33:47.000 And so much of today, what we consider to be some of the great glories of Catholic civilization were from the counter-Reformation.

00:33:54.000 They wouldn't have existed, actually, without the Reformation. 0.82

00:33:56.000 So maybe it made the Catholic tradition healthier.

00:33:59.000 It may have, yeah.

00:34:00.000 I mean, I have full faith in Providence.

00:34:02.000 I mean, I have no doubt that things happen the way they did.

00:34:05.000 Translated the Bible because Catholic priests were administering it in Latin, which was not spoken by the peasantry in England.

00:34:12.000 So he went back to the original Koigne Greek, brought it to English and democratized the Bible. 0.91

00:34:17.000 I'm all for having cheat sheets so you can read the Bible in John Vulgar.

00:34:22.000 But I do prefer the Latin Mass for the unity of the church.

00:34:26.000 I think there is something, and I'll say this about the Catholic tradition, which drives you nuts when I say that. 1.00

00:34:32.000 To the unity and the reverence and the uncompromising belief in that some things must be kept sacred.

00:34:44.000 I think it's really beautiful.

00:34:45.000 Yeah, yeah.

00:34:46.000 Yeah, of course.

00:34:46.000 I mean, it's even like, for instance, I recognize that some people have actual theological problems with Mary's role and things, and they hear lots of questions.

00:34:55.000 Yes, to some degree, and people who have even more problems.

00:34:58.000 And I just go back to this idea of if you're really anti-Mary, if you're just like super anti-Mary.

00:35:03.000 And I'm not.

00:35:04.000 And you're not, I know, but I know some people that are.

00:35:06.000 And I think, you know, even if it weren't the mother of your Lord and Savior, even if it were just like your buddy's mother, wouldn't you be kind of nice to her?

00:35:14.000 Aren't you nice to your buddy's mom?

00:35:15.000 And, you know, that reverence, I think, is very important.

00:35:19.000 It actually creates a problem, even when, like, for instance, the Pope says and does things that are difficult to see, that one has to still have a spirit of obedience and reverence.

00:35:27.000 And, you know, we always do this thing where we'll say, you know, far be it from me to criticize the Holy Father, but I wonder as a poor, miserable sinner, if maybe he shouldn't have quite said that thing.

00:35:36.000 And frankly, that tone, I think, is helpful to us.

00:35:40.000 You've been saying that a lot lately.

00:35:41.000 I've been saying that a lot lately.

00:35:42.000 These discussions have actually gotten more nuanced when we first started.

00:35:45.000 We've done this like three or four times, and it's really fun.

00:35:48.000 There's some things you're just not going to get me on, which is the Protestant Reformation was a legitimately and objectively good thing for humanity.

00:35:54.000 We'll get that on that next episode.

00:35:55.000 Prove me wrong.

00:35:56.000 Well, I'll get you that.

00:35:56.000 It'll be Stephen Critter, changed my mind.

00:35:58.000 Yeah, exactly.

00:36:00.000 Speechless.

00:36:01.000 Get it?

00:36:01.000 Yes.

00:36:02.000 Get it.

00:36:02.000 That's very important.

00:36:03.000 This is why I like.

00:36:03.000 Is the subtext why we should have killed Tyndale Earlier?

00:36:06.000 That's going to be my sequel.

00:36:07.000 This book, Speechless, I will say one great benefit of the Protestants, you know, making the minor contribution to Western civilization. 1.00

00:36:15.000 Well, it's that we got to print the book and sell a bunch of copies, even though the New York Times won't acknowledge it.

00:36:19.000 Yeah, you mean thanks to the Gutenberg?

00:36:21.000 Yeah.

00:36:21.000 Yeah, that's it.

00:36:22.000 You know, Protestants gave us Adam Smith, John Locke, don't remind me. 1.00

00:36:26.000 George Washington.

00:36:27.000 Oh, I like that.

00:36:28.000 Alexander Hamilton.

00:36:29.000 I like him too.

00:36:30.000 He was pretty monarchical then.

00:36:31.000 You know, minor details.

00:36:32.000 Donald Trump from the Protestant tradition.

00:36:35.000 Yes.

00:36:36.000 Ronald Reagan.

00:36:37.000 Ray.

00:36:37.000 White D. Eisenhower.

00:36:38.000 Yeah.

00:36:39.000 And Howard Kevin.

00:36:40.000 How can we hear?

00:36:41.000 Here we go.

00:36:42.000 Yeah, Joe Biden and John F. Kennedy.

00:36:44.000 That's rough.

00:36:44.000 That's a low plot.

00:36:45.000 You will bear a tree by the fruit it produces.

00:36:50.000 Are you going to make me run for president, Ryan?

00:36:52.000 I'm still too young.

00:36:52.000 I'm a little older.

00:36:53.000 Everybody, thank you so much.

00:36:55.000 Michael Knowles, God bless you.

00:36:56.000 Great to be here.

00:36:57.000 I'll pray for your soul.

00:36:58.000 Yes, I will pray.

00:36:59.000 Intercessory prayers.

00:37:01.000 For Charlie.

00:37:02.000 Thanks.

00:37:04.000 That's great.

00:37:05.000 That's great, dude.

00:37:09.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:37:10.000 Email us your thoughts, freedom at charliekirk.com.

00:37:13.000 And if you want to support our program, go to charliekirk.com/slash support.

00:37:18.000 Thanks so much for listening, everybody.

00:37:20.000 God bless.

00:37:20.000 Speak to you soon.

00:37:24.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.

The Charlie Kirk Show - August 08, 2021

Was Jesus a Catholic? Thoughtful Theology with Michael Knowles

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