The Charlie Kirk Show - March 18, 2022


You're Being Lied to About Ukraine & Russia —PART 2 — The Truth with Pedro Gonzalez


Episode Stats


Length

52 minutes

Words per minute

171.24841

Word count

8,962

Sentence count

594

Harmful content

Misogyny

4

sentences flagged

Toxicity

14

sentences flagged

Hate speech

26

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Pedro Gonzalez walks us through the West s history with Ukraine, and how it led us to the current crisis in Ukraine. Then we also talk about the philosophy of neoconservatism, and what they really mean by bringing American values to Ukraine.

Transcript

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Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 Hey, everybody, it's Anna Charlie Kirk Show.
00:00:01.000 Pedro Gonzalez walks us through the West's history with Ukraine.
00:00:04.000 I think it's really interesting.
00:00:06.000 We believe Vladimir Putin is a war criminal.
00:00:08.000 We believe he's satanically inspired.
00:00:10.000 Go through the whole checklist.
00:00:11.000 We stand by that.
00:00:13.000 But what did the West do to bring us to this point?
00:00:15.000 It's important you know.
00:00:16.000 And I think it might surprise you.
00:00:18.000 Then we also talk about the philosophy of neoconservatives.
00:00:21.000 We all want a strong America, but when the elites say they want to bring American values to Ukraine, what do they really mean by that?
00:00:26.000 That's a very interesting topic.
00:00:28.000 I think you'll be blessed to hear kind of how we explore that together.
00:00:33.000 Pedro makes some phenomenal points.
00:00:34.000 Really got me thinking.
00:00:36.000 Email me directly, freedom at charliekirk.com.
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00:01:08.000 Here we go.
00:01:09.000 Charlie, what you've done is incredible here.
00:01:11.000 Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus.
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00:03:06.000 Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk Show.
00:03:08.000 Back by Popular Demand, one of the most popular episodes we've done in the last year was our conversation with Pedro Gonzalez from Chronicles, and he broke down some thought crimes you could say about Ukraine and the kind of non-stop push to try to get us involved in Ukraine.
00:03:25.000 Pedro, welcome back to the program.
00:03:28.000 Hey, Charlie, thanks for having me back.
00:03:29.000 So, Pedro, I think it would be helpful for our audience to know how we got here, the background of United States involvement in Ukraine from New Lind to all the different kind of bipartisan uniparty experiments in Ukraine.
00:03:45.000 Floor is yours.
00:03:46.000 Walk us through it.
00:03:48.000 Yeah, and cut me off at any time because I'll go back as far as I can without getting into the weeds.
00:03:54.000 But it's important to understand two things.
00:03:57.000 Yes, Russia invaded Ukraine in February and triggered the current crisis, but war doesn't happen in a vacuum ever.
00:04:08.000 There are always things that lead up to that flashpoint.
00:04:11.000 There's something, believe it or not, that happened before last month that got us into the situation.
00:04:18.000 And it's important to understand that for a lot of reasons, in particular, that if we don't learn from our mistakes, by our, I mean our elite, if we don't learn from those mistakes, we're doomed to repeat them.
00:04:29.000 It's incredible.
00:04:30.000 I mean, there are so many parallels that you can draw with history right now that just you're just kind of shocked that we're sleepwalking back into basically Iraq, except the nuclear war edition of that, right? 0.60
00:04:44.000 So we go back all the way to 1989 to 2004, when NATO starts integrating major countries like Poland, the Czech Republic, Romania, and the Baltic states.
00:04:57.000 Russia more or less swallows those admissions, just kind of watches them happen, right?
00:05:02.000 Which is interesting because we've been told in recent times that Russia is bent on global domination. 0.74
00:05:07.000 It's still the USSR. 0.93
00:05:08.000 You know, they want to murder us at any chance they get.
00:05:13.000 And that's basically the only line that you're allowed to have.
00:05:16.000 That's not really true at all.
00:05:18.000 For Russia, the hard line was always Georgia and Ukraine.
00:05:22.000 And they repeatedly warned for decades, do not attempt to turn Georgia and Ukraine against us.
00:05:28.000 That is basically Russia's Monroe doctrine. 0.84
00:05:30.000 That's how geopolitical theorist John Mearsheimer has described it.
00:05:34.000 John Mearsheimer is probably the most brilliant realist political thinker alive.
00:05:37.000 And he said plainly, like, look, we would never tolerate Canada and Mexico making a military alliance with Russia and Russia putting nukes in Tijuana aimed at DC.
00:05:47.000 We would just never tolerate that.
00:05:49.000 And for Mearsheimer, it's common sense that that's how Russia feels about Georgia and Ukraine.
00:05:54.000 But there are people in DC like Victoria Noland and her neoconservative allies who they don't care.
00:06:02.000 They think that we can drive all the way up to Russia's border, put nukes on it, and then they just have to accept it.
00:06:08.000 And if they don't like it, well, it's nuclear war.
00:06:10.000 And that's the price they're willing to let you pay for it.
00:06:13.000 I can keep going if you'd like.
00:06:14.000 Please keep going.
00:06:16.000 Okay.
00:06:17.000 So a pivotal point in all this is the Bucharest summit in 2008.
00:06:23.000 Right before the summit, Vladimir Putin tells William Burns, who at the time is in the State Department under George W. Bush, today he's a director of the CIA.
00:06:32.000 He tells him before the summit, look, again, Georgia and Ukraine is the hard line.
00:06:38.000 Do not attempt to integrate those two countries into NATO.
00:06:41.000 Well, what happens at the summit?
00:06:43.000 European countries are actually, they understand this.
00:06:45.000 There's a balance of power.
00:06:46.000 We don't want to upset it.
00:06:48.000 We know that it would be a huge provocation to do that.
00:06:50.000 So that's kind of off the table for countries like France and Germany, but not for the Bush administration.
00:06:55.000 And at the behest of the Bush administration, of people like Noland, who's worked in the Clinton administration, the George W. administration, the Obama administration, and also the Biden administration, at the behest of people like her under George W, they push NATO to declare, they don't extend a formal invitation, but they declare an affirmation of Georgia and Ukraine's NATO aspirations.
00:07:22.000 Putin calls that the statement, a direct threat to Russian national security.
00:07:26.000 Big surprise, right?
00:07:27.000 But it's not just Putin.
00:07:28.000 And it's important to understand this.
00:07:30.000 You're not a Russia apologist for pointing this out.
00:07:33.000 And if it makes you a Russia apologist, then so is Robert Gates.
00:07:37.000 Robert Gates was a director of the CIA.
00:07:39.000 He worked in the agency for decades.
00:07:40.000 He was Secretary of Defense under George W. Bush and Obama.
00:07:44.000 And in his memoir, Robert Gates confessed that attempting to integrate Georgia and Ukraine into NATO was, quote, truly overreaching.
00:07:52.000 He called it a monumental provocation at Russia.
00:07:56.000 Is Robert Gates like a subversive?
00:07:58.000 Is he pro-Putin?
00:07:59.000 Is he pro-Kremlin?
00:08:00.000 This former director of the CIA? 0.69
00:08:02.000 It's ridiculous to even to think that, right?
00:08:04.000 And this is what George Kennan was saying.
00:08:06.000 In 1998, George Kennan, the premier advocate of Soviet containment policy, not a guy who's soft on commies, right? 0.56
00:08:14.000 George Kennan in 1998 said, look, if you treat Russia like it's still the Soviet Union and it wants to kill all of us, that's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:08:24.000 Unless we help them kind of steward out from the fall of the Soviet Union, unless we help them climb out of that, we're just going to turn them into the enemy that we insist that they are. 0.96
00:08:35.000 Was George Kennan right?
00:08:37.000 Was Robert Gates right?
00:08:38.000 That's, again, these are questions that you're just not allowed to ask on CNN or, frankly, a lot of conservative media right now.
00:08:44.000 And it's insane because if you don't ask those questions, you're doomed to continue repeating these mistakes that brought us to exactly where we are.
00:08:52.000 So from that point, from 2008, it's kind of like, okay, the collision course is set.
00:08:59.000 The United States is pumping billions of dollars into Ukraine to promote civil society, which is a euphemism that the CIA likes to use for basically setting the stage for regime change.
00:09:10.000 Between 1991 and 2013 alone, we pumped more than $5 billion into Ukraine.
00:09:17.000 That's a lot of money for what, right?
00:09:20.000 Why do we care so much about Ukraine?
00:09:21.000 It's because of, again, these ideologues, these liberal interventionists who think that their hegemony, basically DC's way, is worth everything, including nuclear war.
00:09:35.000 So in 2013, we arrive at another flashpoint.
00:09:41.000 The EU makes a trade deal offer to Ukraine's soon-to-be-deposed president, Viktor Yanukovych.
00:09:50.000 And on the surface, it looks like a groovy, plain old trade deal, you know, nothing wrong with it, but it's actually economic warfare disguised as a trade deal.
00:09:59.000 And what it would entail would be flooding the Ukrainian market with European goods, and by extension, because of its relationship with Russia, the Russian market with European goods.
00:10:08.000 And in theory, this would have destabilized Russia's economy, resulting in unrest and then a so-called democratic revolution overthrowing their government.
00:10:18.000 And then we get one that's DC friendly.
00:10:22.000 The Russian government saw it for what it was.
00:10:23.000 Like, this is not a trade deal.
00:10:25.000 This is a gun pointed at our heads.
00:10:27.000 And so they make Yanukovych counteroffer.
00:10:30.000 We'll give you billions of dollars in aid, economic aid, or we'll hit you with sanctions.
00:10:35.000 It's your call.
00:10:36.000 And so Yanukovych renegs on the EU trade deal.
00:10:40.000 And by the way, The Economist, because you'll hear people today say, well, he was just a Putin stooge.
00:10:44.000 Like he did whatever Russian wanted him to do. 0.92
00:10:46.000 That's not true.
00:10:47.000 The economist described him as a guy that milked both the EU and Russia for what he thought would work best for a country like Ukraine that's basically in the sad state of being a buffer, a buffer country.
00:11:02.000 So Yanukovych reneged on the trade deal in 2013.
00:11:06.000 And in late 2013, you start to have the beginnings of these democratic protests.
00:11:11.000 And they start in November.
00:11:15.000 By December, Victoria Noland, who's, again, this career swamp creature, appears in Kiev, handing out cookies and treats to the Democratic protesters that her and her friends at the State Department.
00:11:30.000 And I mean, there's a whole other discussion here of actually the role of Facebook and Google and Microsoft actually had to play in kind of setting the stage for this.
00:11:40.000 But that's for a different story.
00:11:42.000 But anyways, Victoria Nolan is literally on the ground, you know, celebrating with the protesters because she knows what's going to happen.
00:11:49.000 She knows that this is going to these democratic protests, which by the way, did not have the support of the entire country.
00:11:55.000 It was split basically like down the middle.
00:11:58.000 The strongest support to surprise, like this is not a surprise at all, the strongest support for regime change was in Kiev, in western Ukraine.
00:12:08.000 But it's not like anyone who says, Well, they wanted democratic revolution, they wanted regime change.
00:12:13.000 That's not true.
00:12:13.000 The country was split.
00:12:15.000 This was a deeply polarizing issue, and for good reason.
00:12:20.000 So, again, the protests start in 2013.
00:12:23.000 You know, Noland and her friends are working behind the scenes, or literally in this case, on the ground handing out cookies.
00:12:30.000 And as these protests are getting more and more violent, this is another important thing that we can get into.
00:12:37.000 Noland makes a call in late January 2014 to the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine.
00:12:44.000 So, the protests start in late November and they're rolling into January at this point.
00:12:49.000 And in January, Victoria Noland, who there's a lot of background here, but what you need to know is that because of her role in creating the crisis in Ukraine today, she's been dubbed the architect of DC's influence in Ukraine.
00:13:09.000 This is a very bad woman for the United States. 1.00
00:13:12.000 So, in January 2014, she makes a phone call to the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, and they're talking about the next government.
00:13:22.000 If you just think about this, it's kind of funny, right?
00:13:24.000 We're a democratic country, democratic revolution.
00:13:27.000 We have no hand in this.
00:13:28.000 And yet, here you have Victoria Nolan talking with the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine about who the Obama administration has selected to be the next prime minister, or we should say, approved of to be the next prime minister of Ukraine, a guy named Arseni Yatsenyuk.
00:13:43.000 And to give you an idea of how this woman thinks, when the question comes up of what the EU's role is going to be in mediating this, whether they'll mediate with the new coalition that DC has chosen to be part of the new government, when the ambassador raises that question, like, well, is the EU going to going to mediate for us?
00:14:06.000 Nolan just says, F the EU.
00:14:08.000 When the call gets leaked, I think the Russians actually intercepted the call and they leak it to the press. 0.61
00:14:14.000 And I mean, it's funny because we didn't even deny that this was like an actual conversation that happened.
00:14:19.000 We just complained by we, I mean, Western media, just complained that, well, this is a new low in Russian trade craft spying on our calls.
00:14:26.000 Isn't that funny?
00:14:27.000 Like, the United States government complaining about people listening.
00:14:30.000 We never spy on anything, obviously.
00:14:32.000 Right.
00:14:32.000 We would never do that.
00:14:34.000 No.
00:14:35.000 And so, yeah, so they don't even deny the authenticity of the call.
00:14:38.000 They just complain that it was a low blow by the Russians to do that.
00:14:41.000 And take it out of context, right?
00:14:42.000 Context matters.
00:14:43.000 But I mean, it gives you an insight into how these people feel entitled.
00:14:47.000 Basically, it's not democracy unless DC approves of it.
00:14:51.000 And handpicks, you know, who's going to lead your next administration.
00:14:56.000 And this gets into another aspect of the whole Ukraine Western perception question, which is that right before, and so I should say that Yitzenyuk ends up being ousted on February 22nd, 2014.
00:15:15.000 Protesters basically threaten him with violence.
00:15:18.000 At that point, several people have been killed.
00:15:20.000 Police officers and protesters have been killed by snipers, among other things.
00:15:25.000 And this is, we're going to get into that.
00:15:28.000 And so these militants basically threaten Yanukovych with violence.
00:15:33.000 If you don't step down, it's going to get really bad for you.
00:15:37.000 And so he steps down.
00:15:38.000 And the new government led by Yitzenyuk is installed, I think, by February 27th, late February.
00:15:46.000 On February 26th, there is a call between two European politicians, a Brit named Catherine Ashton and an Estonian minister named Urmus Pate.
00:15:57.000 And the call is part of an inquiry.
00:15:59.000 They're trying to figure out, you know, who is behind the violence.
00:16:03.000 And Ashton assumes that it's the incumbent Ukrainian government led by Yanukovych, and she assumes that he had been ordering police to kill protesters.
00:16:14.000 Because this is just what they were, they had assumed, because there's this whole like image of Yanukovych as a Kremlin stooge who's just like a kind of a ruthless tyrant.
00:16:24.000 But Pate, who had been on the ground and had been gathering intelligence about what happened, surprises Ashton and he says, based on the intelligence that I've gathered here, what I'm hearing is that the sniper killings were orchestrated by someone or some group that is part of the new coalition, which is referring to the coalition that had been cultivated by the West and specifically DC, these opposition leaders,
00:16:51.000 these political outsiders that we had chosen to be kind of like, the leaders of the new government, that Pite's intelligence suggested that it was someone who was part of this new coalition that had been orchestrating these, these killings uh, and making it in.
00:17:08.000 In other words, this group, one group had been shooting both cops and protesters in order to fan the flames of violence.
00:17:17.000 And an American scholar named Gordon Hahn analyzed uh the, the violence that happened during the they're called the, the Maidan protests or the Maidan uprising, and it culminates in the so-called Revolution Of Dignity.
00:17:29.000 It's all this, it's all basically the same thing, and so this American scholar sat down and looked at it and what he found was that the the majority of the pivotal moments of escalation that resulted in violence, it was on the protesters, not the police like yes, the police shot people, but it was because protesters were doing stuff like setting fires to buildings intentionally to provoke, like a reaction from the security that would get people killed.
00:17:53.000 And what this inquiry by these European politicians found was that uh, the killings were again.
00:18:01.000 One group was shooting both cops and protesters in order to intensify uh, the violence.
00:18:06.000 And Ashton was you could hear on the call that she's like, well, that's not what I was expecting.
00:18:10.000 And then she kind of changes the subject and the inquiry is dropped.
00:18:13.000 Nothing ever comes of it uh, but when the call got intercepted and leaked again uh, the the Estonian ministry didn't even deny the call's authenticity.
00:18:21.000 They just said again, it was taken out of context it's, it's.
00:18:24.000 It's a part of.
00:18:24.000 I think the Guardian ran a story on it and the headline was like, intercepted call fans conspiracy theories about what really happened during the maiden.
00:18:32.000 So the call gets intercepted and it leaves this question in the air that has remained unanswered, who was really behind the violence that happened during the Mydan protests?
00:18:44.000 Uh, again there, the police, security forces did actually kill protesters, but it seems like there was a third party that was basically playing the bad actor, intentionally setting people up to get killed and again the media dismissed.
00:18:58.000 This is a conspiracy theory, although they didn't deny the fact that this inquiry existed.
00:19:02.000 But you had guys like Paul Craig Roberts, who served under Reagan at the Treasury.
00:19:07.000 And in 2014, watching these protests unfold, Paul Craig Roberts wrote in a column, like, yeah, this is a Western-backed CIA op.
00:19:15.000 Like, we have a hand in this.
00:19:18.000 Like, it's incredible because you can find that article, you know, right now.
00:19:21.000 You can find Paul Craig Roberts, former government official who served under Reagan, just talking about this just very candidly, like, yeah, no, this is, we had a hand in this.
00:19:30.000 And at the same time that that's happening, the head of the Ukrainian security service, which is kind of like the successor force of the old Ukrainian KGB, the guy who was running it during the coup, and right afterwards, he is fired and he disappears and he re-emerges in Russia.
00:19:52.000 But he was running, it's called the SBU, the security service at the time that this happened.
00:19:57.000 And when he reappears after this coup happens, he says that basically the Ukrainian government, elements of the Ukrainian government, have been working with Western intelligence.
00:20:11.000 And more damningly, that the so-called democratic activists had been trained by the West.
00:20:18.000 And it's dismissed because, you know, again, he reappears in Russia.
00:20:22.000 So it's easy to kind of dismiss him because you can say, well, he's, you know, he's obviously sympathetic to Russia.
00:20:27.000 And therefore, although he was the head of the security service, he doesn't know what he's talking about, or it's a lie.
00:20:31.000 Okay.
00:20:31.000 But then you also have Polish politicians and Polish journalists who are saying that we helped the West train these activists in Poland.
00:20:41.000 Because if you know anything about Poland, you know that Poland and the CIA are super, are really, really close.
00:20:45.000 They work together on a lot of things.
00:20:47.000 And there's an intimate relationship between that country and Western intelligence.
00:20:53.000 And so you have Polish politicians and journalists who are saying that our government was complicit in the Maidan because we were part of the process of training and preparing these people.
00:21:06.000 And I mean, like, there's actually a lot of this going on around that time and afterwards and ever since that people are saying like that this was very much a Western operation.
00:21:17.000 It was not necessarily a democratic revolution because the country was polarized on this issue.
00:21:23.000 And the BBC does a report, an investigative report on this.
00:21:26.000 And they also find that they're like these militants, the ones that were really kind of the, I mean, yeah, there was a lot of journalists and like NGO trained activists, but ultimately it's the militants that are really driving the protests.
00:21:40.000 And, you know, they're the ones that are really the spearhead of this whole thing.
00:21:43.000 And the BBC's coverage notes that these people were really highly coordinated, that they had like a sophisticated logistical infrastructure.
00:21:51.000 And a German outlet called the Frankfurt Algemeiner Zeit does their own reporting.
00:21:58.000 And they interview one of the protesters who he doesn't say who, but he says, yeah, I showed up and I was given high-velocity ammunition and a choice between a shotgun and basically a long rifle.
00:22:09.000 Like, doesn't that seem odd?
00:22:11.000 That there was this kind of system in place to arm these people with whatever they needed.
00:22:17.000 And that guy in particular seemed kind of uncomfortable with the whole thing.
00:22:20.000 And he said, I was shooting at people's feet, is what this guy said.
00:22:24.000 But scholars like Gordon Hahn, the American who looked at the violence, noted that a lot of these snipers seemed to be well trained and they were specifically aiming for the heart, the lungs, and the neck, shooting to kill.
00:22:37.000 There are all these open questions, right?
00:22:39.000 And this is important because basically all of the red flags around this contribute to parts of eastern Ukraine basically saying, like, this is BS.
00:22:53.000 Like, We don't acknowledge the legitimacy of this government.
00:22:57.000 And so we're now separatists.
00:22:59.000 And that triggers a civil war that's basically been raging for nearly a decade now.
00:23:04.000 And it's the instability that happens around this time that contributes to Putin moving to annex Crimea, which, by the way, has tons of pro-Russian sympathy.
00:23:13.000 I mean, you don't hear about this in Western media, or it's dismissed.
00:23:15.000 It's just misinformation, right?
00:23:17.000 But there are a lot of, there is a ton of pro-Russia sentiment in Eastern Ukraine and specifically Crimea.
00:23:22.000 They also speak Russian in those parts.
00:23:25.000 So let me ask you, Pedro, really quick.
00:23:27.000 I want to play some tape here of Victoria Newland.
00:23:30.000 Let's play Cut 97 just as some supporting tape of what you're talking about here.
00:23:35.000 Sure.
00:23:36.000 When you're a high-ranking official talking about diplomatic efforts in Ukraine, the last thing you want to do is drop your guard.
00:23:44.000 So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and have the UN help glue it and, you know, the EU.
00:23:51.000 But that is exactly what reportedly happened between U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Jeffrey Piatt.
00:24:01.000 So that was exactly what you were talking about in that particular clip.
00:24:04.000 So just to make sure I understand this and our listenership understands, is that Western intelligence, Victoria Newland, all of this, we were heavily involved in these, allegedly, in these Maidan protests in 2014, which then displaced a leader that was pro-Russian with one that was more pro-Western or pro-CIA or pro-DC.
00:24:27.000 And that really started the unraveling of the events of what we're seeing right now.
00:24:32.000 Is that correct?
00:24:33.000 Yes.
00:24:34.000 And but there's even more.
00:24:35.000 And I think it's important to go back to that Viktor Yanukovych point and say, like, yeah, he pro-Russia in the sense that he was willing to work with Russia and he didn't hate Russia, as opposed to the regimes that followed after that, where they're just rapidly, like Zelensky, rapidly anti-Russian, which again, you know, that might sound good to those of us who have like residual, you know, anti-Russian feelings, but when we're talking about geopolitics and things like war, that has consequences for civilian populations,
00:25:05.000 like you're seeing right now.
00:25:07.000 And so, okay, what is the result of this crisis in eastern Ukraine, apart from the civil war?
00:25:17.000 Well, it results in what's called the Minsk agreements.
00:25:20.000 There are two of these, 2014 and 2015.
00:25:22.000 Basically, these are ceasefire agreements that the point of them was to affect a ceasefire on the one hand between Russian for pro-Russian side and the pro-Ukrainian side in Ukraine and to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, because obviously that's an important consideration.
00:25:40.000 Because there is a fear that Russia would just continue driving West.
00:25:44.000 So the point of the Minsk agreements was just to satisfy both sides.
00:25:49.000 But the Minsk agreements fail.
00:25:51.000 They fail in part because of DC.
00:25:55.000 The second Minsk agreement is signed in 2015.
00:25:58.000 By 2016, you have John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and Amy Klobuchar in Ukraine on video standing next to former Ukrainian president Viktor Poroshenko at a military base saying, we will go back to DC and tell them to basically arm you.
00:26:19.000 And like, again, you can find the video.
00:26:22.000 No, we have the clip.
00:26:23.000 I mean, it's Lindsey Graham basically being like, we're going to do it.
00:26:26.000 We're going to send a message.
00:26:27.000 He says, quote, time to play offense is what he says.
00:26:31.000 So let me ask you, Pedro, you know, we've talked a lot about Iran on our program of how our government was involved in displacing Mossaghde and re-implementing the Shah, which led to the Iranian revolution.
00:26:44.000 Is that a similar sort of kind of like, we got involved and then something bad happened afterwards type deal?
00:26:51.000 I'm going to do something that journalists don't usually do, and that's to say I don't.
00:26:55.000 Uh, that's that I don't know enough to comment on that.
00:26:59.000 Okay, I know it's shocking, right, that I would admit that, but no, I just uh, unfortunately, this is this is the this is taking up all of my interest right now.
00:27:09.000 So, well, we need more of that in journalism, frankly.
00:27:11.000 But I guess the argument I'm making is it sounds like we get involved, there's a color revolution, yes, you know, and then there is some form of a you know kind of vacuum, and then other things start to unravel as a result of the West's hyper involvement.
00:27:28.000 Yeah, no, that's that's basically, I mean, this is it's not, by the way, it's not anti-American to say that, it's actually very pro-American.
00:27:34.000 I agree, it's DC that you're indicting DC.
00:27:34.000 No, I agree.
00:27:37.000 You're careful with your language here.
00:27:39.000 It's not the welder in Missouri who's at fault here, it's this Newland character.
00:27:44.000 If the United States government won't mind its business in your life, why would it mind its business in other countries?
00:27:51.000 That's right.
00:27:51.000 I mean, that's actually a great way to think about this, and that's precisely what we're talking about here.
00:27:56.000 And again, something that gets left out from the whole discussion of like, why did Putin wake up in February on the wrong side of the bed and invade Ukraine?
00:28:04.000 Well, what we don't talk about is the fact that there was unrest in Kazakhstan and Belarus just recently.
00:28:12.000 That's right.
00:28:13.000 And Putin specifically said that these were attempted color revolutions.
00:28:18.000 And the point of these is to further destabilize Russia. 0.65
00:28:22.000 And he said, we will not tolerate the boat being rocked.
00:28:26.000 And so it's an open question if Noland and her friends in the public and private sector were involved in these seemingly democratic protests, right?
00:28:36.000 Once again, and they're also recent.
00:28:39.000 These are these are recent things.
00:28:40.000 I remember the Belarus story.
00:28:41.000 Yeah, there were a lot of people that said this doesn't look organic.
00:28:44.000 It looks manufactured.
00:28:46.000 But we forgot about that.
00:28:47.000 Or it's not, or it's not related at all.
00:28:48.000 That has nothing to do with it.
00:28:50.000 It's just paranoia on the side of people like us and on the side of Russia, right? 0.71
00:28:53.000 But these things matter.
00:28:54.000 Look, you can't poke the bear, the nuclear-armed bear, every single day of the year and then not expect it to get angry.
00:29:04.000 And again, this is not a Kremlin talking point.
00:29:08.000 This is what George Kennan has been saying.
00:29:10.000 This is what Robert Gates said.
00:29:12.000 This is what John Mearsheimer has been saying.
00:29:14.000 It's what every person with sense has been saying for decades that if you treat a country like this with this kind of history and this kind of identity, if you treat them like an enemy, they're going to become your worst enemy.
00:29:30.000 And that's not naive to say that.
00:29:33.000 It doesn't make you like a pacifist to say that.
00:29:35.000 It just, it's common sense, right?
00:29:36.000 You keep jabbing at someone.
00:29:38.000 You keep demonizing someone.
00:29:39.000 Eventually, they're going to do something back.
00:29:41.000 But the problem is that civilians get caught in the middle, obviously.
00:29:46.000 That's what you're saying.
00:29:46.000 Yeah, I mean, look, I've called Putin all the worst things you can call somebody, and I'll do that again.
00:29:51.000 And I want to just play this out, though, because you make a really smart point.
00:29:54.000 I want you to imagine the KGB or the Chinese intelligence agency displacing the president of Mexico.
00:30:01.000 And then Mexico all of a sudden becomes this really antagonistic, like pro-Chinese, pro-Russian neighbor.
00:30:10.000 And then let's just say like Russian politicians started to show up to Mexico City and saying, we're going to play offense.
00:30:18.000 We're going to go to El Paso.
00:30:20.000 We're going to send a message to DC.
00:30:22.000 Like, yeah, we probably wouldn't think too kindly about that, right?
00:30:25.000 We didn't like with how do we react to Cuba?
00:30:26.000 I mean, we wall them off completely, right?
00:30:29.000 Well, it was actually, I mean, one thing that comes to mind is the Zimmermann telegram.
00:30:33.000 Germany made an appeal to Mexico during World War II.
00:30:35.000 Wow, that's exactly right.
00:30:37.000 And that actually helped us get into the war because we were like, no, no, no, you're not making it.
00:30:41.000 You're not coming into our hemisphere. 1.00
00:30:42.000 It's not going to happen, right?
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00:32:58.000 Pedro, I want to kind of go through what does Lindsey Graham think his role is in history?
00:33:05.000 I know we can make jokes about it.
00:33:06.000 I mean, we should.
00:33:07.000 Obviously, we should mock it.
00:33:09.000 But let's talk about this.
00:33:10.000 What is the impulse to want to get involved in restructuring the government of Ukraine?
00:33:14.000 Why is it that at every turn, there's almost a hyper-focus from the Klobuchars to the McCains to like we can reformulate other countries?
00:33:23.000 What is it in the philosophy itself that drives them, that motivates them that they're convinced they can do this?
00:33:30.000 Well, I should start by saying that I don't usually say that there is one reason for everything.
00:33:35.000 I think everything is just the result of competing forces.
00:33:39.000 And obviously, some forces went out over others.
00:33:42.000 So setting by which I mean cynicism is also a factor here.
00:33:46.000 There are people that just view Ukraine as a kind of source of plunder.
00:33:50.000 And it's just a haven for oligarchs and NGOs. 0.59
00:33:54.000 But there's a worldview thing too, mixed up.
00:33:56.000 There is.
00:33:56.000 Yeah, I'm just saying that we have to acknowledge that that seedy element is there.
00:34:01.000 But when we talk about ideology and what kind of ideology drives people like Victoria Nolan and her husband, Robert Kagan, who's one of the leading liberal internationalists and a hardcore neoconservative, Robert Kagan is a lunatic. 0.97
00:34:14.000 And of course, Victoria is married to a lunatic. 0.94
00:34:16.000 He's a Washington Post columnist, if I'm not mistaken. 0.99
00:34:19.000 Right.
00:34:19.000 Yeah.
00:34:19.000 Yeah, that's right.
00:34:21.000 And so what drives people like that?
00:34:24.000 Well, Francis Fukuyama, who wrote The End of History, right?
00:34:28.000 Yeah, wrote The End of History.
00:34:30.000 And at one point, he actually denounced neoconservatives, the movement of which he was part.
00:34:36.000 And I think that contributed to him starting a publication called The American Interest.
00:34:40.000 I don't even know if it still exists, but there was a national interest.
00:34:43.000 Then Francis Fukuyama starts the American interest.
00:34:45.000 And I think he has another one now called The American Prospect.
00:34:47.000 But the point is, is that he denounced neocons and he described them as Bolsheviks.
00:34:54.000 That's the term he used.
00:34:55.000 And what he meant by that is that these are people that think with just enough application of will and force that you can just shape the world in the way that you want it to be.
00:35:07.000 Your image, right?
00:35:09.000 Yeah.
00:35:09.000 And I mean, that sounds maybe kind of cool to some people, like, you know, just the fact that you could just kind of will the world to be the way that you want it to be.
00:35:19.000 But the reality is a lot of bloodshed.
00:35:21.000 It means failed democratic projects from Iraq to Afghanistan and all the blood that that entails. 0.99
00:35:30.000 And that was why Francis Fukuyama said, like, these people are freaking lunatics. 0.89
00:35:34.000 Bolsheviks tried this and it gave us the Soviet Union and all the mass murder that that had, you know, that entailed. 0.94
00:35:40.000 And neocons are basically the, I think he said it, that it, he, he invoked Marx, if I recall correctly, that neocons are like the farcical version of Bolsheviks.
00:35:53.000 And obviously they've emerged in the United States.
00:35:56.000 Yeah, I just want to, really quick, Pedro, I just want to build out what we mean by neoconservative, right?
00:36:00.000 So we're talking about the Lindsey Graham types, right?
00:36:02.000 We're talking about Bill Crystals.
00:36:03.000 And one of the things that I've been struck by kind of learning how they see the world is that they have very little appreciation from the American sense of how unique the American culture was and is in creating what is a self-government experiment, right?
00:36:19.000 So they look at the Constitution and the Declaration and they say, aha, all we have to do is bring those words and translate them into Farsi.
00:36:28.000 And then immediately there will be like this transcendent thing and everyone will kind of go away from their 13th century goat herding, child molesting, you know, ways. 0.55
00:36:38.000 When you and I will say, well, hold on a second.
00:36:41.000 There were hundreds of years of literature and of learning and of kind of civilizational building that even brought us to a point where Western self-government could be possible.
00:36:54.000 Can you kind of riff on that for a second?
00:36:56.000 Yeah, no, that's exactly right.
00:36:57.000 That's exactly right.
00:36:59.000 They're people that think that you can just basically put American ideas or what they refer to as American ideas into basically a happy meal and then use McDonald's to export Americanism.
00:37:13.000 And just there's no, like they don't see the problem with that.
00:37:16.000 The only problem is that we're not willing to commit enough blood and treasure to the project.
00:37:23.000 And the important point is, is that anyone who's not willing to accept that, they end up on the wrong side of neocons.
00:37:29.000 And I mean, these people are, ironically, they very rarely fight the wars that they think that we should.
00:37:36.000 They're domestically vicious.
00:37:38.000 Yeah, I mean, John Potter famously said that a problem with our wars in the Middle East was that we were not willing to kill enough men between the ages of 15 and 35.
00:37:50.000 And that allowed insurgencies to continue renewing over years.
00:37:54.000 In other words, we didn't genocide entire populations.
00:37:57.000 That was, you know, that's the real problem with our foreign policy. 0.99
00:37:59.000 These people are insane.
00:38:01.000 And what's important to know is that what empires do abroad, what neoconservatives are willing to do abroad, they're willing to do it here. 0.98
00:38:09.000 And that's why you have guys like Bill Crystal who just hate, hate Middle America.
00:38:13.000 Like Bill Crystal has literally talked about replacing Americans that he doesn't like through an open borders policy.
00:38:18.000 These people hate you as much as they hate Iraqis who don't get along with the program or Afghans who don't get along with the program.
00:38:25.000 They're ideologues. 1.00
00:38:26.000 They're lunatics. 1.00
00:38:27.000 They're dangerous. 1.00
00:38:28.000 No one should listen to them.
00:38:29.000 They have blood on their hands and yet they're back in full force and they're good at reinventing themselves.
00:38:34.000 I'll give them that, especially with younger faces, like people like Elise Stefanik.
00:38:39.000 It's important to understand that neoconservatives are successful because they've wed themselves to the notion of American exceptionalism.
00:38:48.000 And for that reason, their ideas are, they can be kind of alluring.
00:38:53.000 I just want to, I just want to chime in, though.
00:38:55.000 We do believe America is exceptional, but we have a proper view of why we're exceptional.
00:39:00.000 And it's more than just the eternal principles that are articulated in the Declaration of the Constitution.
00:39:07.000 We believe that you need to have a certain moral framework to be able to participate in self-government.
00:39:13.000 That yes, all men are created equal, absolutely, but not all cultures are created equal, not at all.
00:39:19.000 And not all cultures are either able, and then the other part, Pedro, which is important, willing to accept Western values, right?
00:39:27.000 Look at the Middle East.
00:39:28.000 A lot of them are like, yeah, we don't want this.
00:39:30.000 Like, we want to live under kind of like Islamic rule. 0.99
00:39:32.000 And we don't want, but there's almost this like impositional, almost an empiric, like an imperialist mindset, isn't there?
00:39:39.000 Like, no, you're going to like it.
00:39:41.000 We're going to, we're the problem is we just have to go flat in another village.
00:39:44.000 And yeah, there's, there's a refusal to accept that there are alternatives to the to the liberal interventionist program to which neoconservatives and neoliberals subscribe.
00:39:54.000 So what does that mean?
00:39:55.000 It is unacceptable for someone like Gaddafi or Hussein to be in power. 0.99
00:40:00.000 Yes, those are bad men, but some parts of the world need bad men to maintain a semblance of stability.
00:40:08.000 What did the neoconservative agenda get out of Iraq?
00:40:12.000 ISIS.
00:40:14.000 They created a power, like the neoconservative agenda created a power vacuum that helped usher in one of the most murderous militaries in modern history.
00:40:23.000 Is Gaddafi's world better off now?
00:40:26.000 Is Libya better off now after we've intervened?
00:40:30.000 No, it's not.
00:40:31.000 I mean, there are people that literally are saying, like, we wish Gaddafi was back, but neoconservatives won't accept that.
00:40:37.000 They refuse to accept that anything else other than their vision is acceptable.
00:40:42.000 Well, it's not just that.
00:40:43.000 Is Europe better off?
00:40:44.000 Look at the refugee crisis, right? 0.97
00:40:45.000 So not only does it displace the current country, but then you have a demographic kind of pressure on Europe where all of a sudden we're just going to bring in millions of people.
00:40:53.000 And that's also part of the neoconservative belief, right?
00:40:56.000 Which is not only can we believe bring values anywhere, but we can bring anybody here.
00:41:02.000 Yeah, that's right.
00:41:03.000 Yeah, there's no reason.
00:41:04.000 I mean, and this is precisely why people like Bill Crystal think that, you know, we could just replace Americans we don't like with immigrants because humans or beings are just, they're basically just widgets.
00:41:15.000 If you don't like them, you can switch them out like Legos.
00:41:17.000 Like that, that is, again, these people are ideologues.
00:41:21.000 And like I said, the issue is that they wed their ideas to American exceptionalism, which maybe sounds nice rhetorically, but in practice, it actually results in a kind of dehumanization where people who are not on board with your program, you can basically do whatever you want to them.
00:41:38.000 You can be as cruel as you want to them because they become like an absolute enemy because they don't share your values.
00:41:45.000 Therefore, you're justified in doing whatever you want to them.
00:41:47.000 Well, let's go through a little level deeper, Pedro.
00:41:50.000 I know that I don't know if you're pressed for time or not, but let's talk about what the regime actually thinks is American exceptionalism versus what you and I would think is American exceptionalism, right?
00:41:59.000 But the regime is like our American exceptionalism is that we have gay pride flags on our embassies, right?
00:42:04.000 Like that's that's what Victoria Newland is fighting. 1.00
00:42:07.000 Am I wrong by saying that?
00:42:08.000 No, I think that there's certainly a belief that all, I mean, like the woke stuff is kind of like the new bizarre American exceptionalism.
00:42:21.000 Yes.
00:42:22.000 That's how neocons see it.
00:42:25.000 Again, going back to Bill Crystal, because he's like a case study in this stuff.
00:42:28.000 He recently did a podcast with someone where he kind of defended being woke.
00:42:32.000 He said, well, you know, maybe there's a good reason to be woke.
00:42:34.000 And people like me are learning that we have to evolve.
00:42:37.000 It's funny, their hawkish foreign policy never changes.
00:42:41.000 They want to invade the world and invite the world, but they're willing to move on the social issues.
00:42:48.000 This has been actually a trait of neoconservatives for the longest time.
00:42:52.000 They're super hawkish on foreign policy, and on domestic issues, they're squishy, and they always will be.
00:42:59.000 But I think it's important here to remember that the Ukrainian civilians, Ukrainian nationalists, they're not fighting for pride parades and BLM and, you know, for men to be swimmers in the NCAA.
00:43:15.000 They're not fighting for that, right?
00:43:17.000 There is a real nationalism in Ukraine that I respect and I'm deeply sympathetic to.
00:43:23.000 I'm inspired by the resistance that these people are putting up.
00:43:27.000 But that's not the same.
00:43:29.000 They're not fighting for the neoconservative or liberal international.
00:43:33.000 They're not fighting for NATO that tweets out a woman with a gay pride flag being like, this is what you have waiting for you, Ukraine. 0.60
00:43:38.000 Yeah, that's right.
00:43:40.000 And our elites project that onto Ukraine.
00:43:43.000 And so the media frames it as there was an article in the Boston Review, and I think the headline was like, Putin's anti-gay war in Ukraine.
00:43:51.000 And like, it's insane.
00:43:53.000 We basically reframe everything through the lens of these bizarre culture war issues.
00:44:01.000 The whole world, according to our elites, is basically like a big culture war.
00:44:07.000 Yes.
00:44:09.000 And if any country is like not sufficiently woke or sufficiently in that direction, then we might have to invade you.
00:44:19.000 I know that sounds like insane, but like, isn't that kind of one of the through lines of all this?
00:44:24.000 Is that it's less about self-government or checks and balances because we don't even have that in our own country in a lot of ways, right?
00:44:29.000 But it's more about like, do you, are, are you like 10 out of 10 on the checklist of kind of the orthodoxy of this secular religion?
00:44:39.000 Yeah, no, that's right.
00:44:40.000 And again, this is important.
00:44:43.000 This is an important point because so much of what liberal internationalists do is projection.
00:44:49.000 You know, the reason that Putin invaded Ukraine in February is because it's a democracy and he hates democracies.
00:44:57.000 You can literally make the same argument against our establishment that we feel like we have to meddle in the affairs of every country that doesn't get on board with the program.
00:45:07.000 And again, you can break that down into ideologues who really do believe that, who believe that we need to export this stuff, and also cynics who like to use buzzwords like democracy to justify just basically making foreign governments more compliant with what we want or with what our elite wants.
00:45:24.000 I think those things often work in tandem.
00:45:26.000 But yeah, I mean, the DC establishment is guilty of the same thing, of meddling in the affairs of other countries, often with catastrophic consequences for the very people they claim to care about.
00:45:39.000 I want to play Cut 98.
00:45:40.000 This was Lindsey Graham and John McCain in Ukraine.
00:45:43.000 And so, look, it's hard to pinpoint the intentions.
00:45:45.000 I don't know if Lindsey Graham's getting richer or powerful off of this stuff. 0.99
00:45:49.000 I don't know.
00:45:50.000 I'm sure he has some defense contractor donors and that stuff.
00:45:53.000 But I really do think at the core, both McCain and Lindsey Graham are legitimate philosophical internationalists, that they think that the values of the liberal world order, of kind of like social liberalism, not only can be, but they're on a moral quest to send it to every corner of the planet.
00:46:11.000 Play Cut 98.
00:46:13.000 Your fight is our fight.
00:46:17.000 2017 will be the year of offense.
00:46:23.000 All of us will go back to Washington and we will push the case against Russia.
00:46:36.000 Enough of a Russian aggression. 0.90
00:46:40.000 It is time for them to pay a heavier price.
00:46:46.000 I believe you will win.
00:46:48.000 I am convinced you will win, and we will do everything we can to provide you with what you need to win.
00:47:24.000 So that was cut up.
00:47:26.000 I thought our team did actually a really good job of that.
00:47:28.000 But let's think about that's in 16.
00:47:30.000 He's like, okay, Russia, we're going to go play offense. 0.76
00:47:33.000 I mean, that's, I, what, do they think that like we can reshape all these countries to become like Manhattan?
00:47:41.000 I, I mean, walk us through, I mean, walk us through.
00:47:43.000 I think, I mean, again, setting aside any cynical motivations, yeah, that's a different time.
00:47:49.000 I'm more interested in the ideology because that is a big part of it.
00:47:53.000 I mean, this is what John Mearsheimer said: that basically NATO expansionism is the manifestation of 21st-century thinking, which is to say unipolar thinking, that only we have, only we, as in DC, has legitimate interests.
00:48:09.000 All other interests that conflict with ours are illegitimate.
00:48:13.000 And Mearsheimer has described figures like Putin as 19th-century thinkers.
00:48:18.000 In other words, they believe in the balance of power, which acknowledges that other countries, other nations have their own security interests.
00:48:27.000 And to avoid conflict, these interests have to be balanced, right?
00:48:32.000 You can't just have one superpower that's just kind of running roughshot all the other ones and expecting them to take it.
00:48:39.000 And what Mearsheimer's point is that this is actually the philosophy that drives NATO expansionism.
00:48:46.000 Yeah, we can actually drive nuclear weapons right up to the border with Russia and aim them at the Kremlin.
00:48:52.000 And they have to just like it.
00:48:54.000 They can't, they have no right to complain about it.
00:48:56.000 Absolutely.
00:48:58.000 Ukraine is just our military base, and we are going to use it to destabilize. 1.00
00:49:03.000 That's actually the goal.
00:49:04.000 The goal is not to stop at Ukraine.
00:49:06.000 It's actually to destabilize Russia's government and replace it with one that is compliant with DC.
00:49:12.000 Like, yes, absolutely, they believe that. 0.56
00:49:14.000 And again, guys like Mearsheimer, who's extremely critical of Russia as well, has said, like, this is lunatic. 0.75
00:49:20.000 This guarantees war. 0.99
00:49:23.000 And war resolves, obviously, in civilian casualty.
00:49:26.000 Like, we lose innocent lives over this.
00:49:29.000 Well, yeah.
00:49:29.000 But the ideologues don't care.
00:49:30.000 I mean, a great example of this right now is like you see, I don't believe the polls, but I mean, you see this in polls and also in experts, like people like psychos at the Atlantic who will never fight in a war, right?
00:49:42.000 They will never go to the front lines.
00:49:44.000 And what are they saying right now?
00:49:45.000 Nuclear war is worth the risk of democracy in Ukraine.
00:49:49.000 So to answer your question, yes.
00:49:51.000 I mean, and to go a step further, I mean, again, I'll use the Iran example.
00:49:55.000 It is perfect.
00:49:56.000 I think, I mean, we got so involved there from CIA, you know, disclosed CIA documents.
00:50:02.000 And what we got was far worse, far worse, right?
00:50:05.000 You got a theocratic Islamic dictatorship, and you had a secular government that just wanted to nationalize the oil, but our CIA got involved in it.
00:50:14.000 And it is the question of a great society and a strong society.
00:50:18.000 Are you willing, are you able to let other countries survive without having to meddle into them?
00:50:24.000 And so far, we failed that test.
00:50:26.000 Any closing thoughts here, Pedro?
00:50:28.000 Closing thought is to listen to your guts.
00:50:31.000 And when you hear people like Lindsey Graham calling for no fly zones, when you hear liberal and conservative media all sounding the same overnight, you should be deeply suspicious and you should not allow yourself to be morally blackmailed into going along with this because like this is a crime.
00:50:50.000 What neoconservatives, what liberal interventionists want is a crime against humanity and we cannot be complicit in it.
00:50:58.000 I say this to a conservative the other day.
00:51:01.000 He said, I want to spread American values across the world.
00:51:04.000 I said, I can hear you.
00:51:05.000 I know your heart.
00:51:06.000 You want the values of Burke and you want the values of Madison and Jefferson.
00:51:10.000 But when you say that and you hear some numbskull in D.C., that's Nicole Hanna-Jones that's going to be exported into Ukraine. 1.00
00:51:16.000 Yes, that's right.
00:51:18.000 It's going to be Mark Milley.
00:51:19.000 He said, I never thought of it that way.
00:51:20.000 I said, so your idea of American values is great and I appreciate that.
00:51:25.000 But understand, they are laundering that term for what are actually anti-American values because they know that it can win and swing districts and get them the money they need to go further socially liberalize the world and have men be women and women be men.
00:51:40.000 They would love nothing more.
00:51:41.000 The regime would love nothing more than in the 2045 Ukrainian NCAA equivalent swim competition to have transgender men or women compete.
00:51:53.000 That would be like a huge win.
00:51:54.000 They're like, see, we did it.
00:51:56.000 We destroyed women's sports in Ukraine. 0.64
00:51:59.000 All right, Pedro, Chronicles Magazine.
00:52:01.000 Very smart.
00:52:02.000 Thanks so much.
00:52:02.000 Appreciate it.
00:52:03.000 Thank you.
00:52:04.000 Thank you so much for listening, everybody.
00:52:06.000 Email me directly, freedom at charliekirk.com and support our show at charliekirk.com/slash support.
00:52:11.000 Thanks so much for listening.
00:52:12.000 God bless.
00:52:16.000 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to CharlieKirk.com.